The price of chinese manufacturing is not just the retail price of the product. The PRC has the strategy of world domination in manufacturing. That would be bad enough for consumer freedom if it was just restricted to produce. However PRC is committed to unfair trade practices, disrespect of intellectual property rights and human rights in general. So the true cost of a cheap £300 frame, if PRC is successful with their strategy is much greater including loss of consumer choice at elections, where and how to make a living at work and your human rights. So you still have the choice of product and country of origin for now. Use it wisely as PRC are not our friends..
@Jourdain Coleman Excellent investigation, well presented. The price of chinese manufacturing is not just the retail price of the product. The PRC has the strategy of world domination in manufacturing. That would be bad enough for consumer freedom if it was just restricted to produce. However PRC is committed to unfair trade practices, disrespect of intellectual property rights and human rights in general. So the true cost of a cheap £300 frame, if PRC is successful with their strategy is much greater including loss of consumer choice at elections, where and how to make a living at work and your human rights. So you still have the choice of product and country of origin for now. Use it wisely as PRC are not our friends..
That frame looks better made than many of the frames I've seen cut up by Raul at Luescher Technik. He has shown huge issues with super expensive brands. At the end of the day though carbon fibre is a hand made process with lots of potential for faults. It's the most advanced material with the least advanced manufacturing in many ways. From what I've seen that is a maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 frame. Overall good I would say. I'm not a performance cyclist though and have zero use for such a bike, I don't need to have a lightweight weak bike it serves no purpose for me and they aren't environmentally friendly. Titanium, steel and aluminium can all be fully recycled and have much better manufacturing consistency. I totally understand the appeal of CF for competitive cyclists though.
Perhaps Jourdain could get a Trek, Giant, Cannondale frame that is few years and cut it up for comparison, as one way of getting around the cost issue. Or perhaps buy a crashed / damaged ‘ Western’ and do a similar dissection. A woman in our club had a high end Ridley which failed around the head tube which was replaced under warranty. She said the LBS she bought the bike from said the frame only cost ‘a couple of hundred ££ quite astonishing given the the retail price of complete bike or frame only. 🤔
It's funny you think of them as cheap. The Chinese have been making carbonfibre tubes far longer than anyone else in the world. Their mastery of the art of carbonfibre is years ahead of anyone else in the world. You have just been conditioned by bike manufacturers to think brand name carbon is expensive.
Great vid, really appreciate the cut up off the frame. Very interesting. Luescher Teknik has great cut ups, also , frames are a bit old but very good to see all different makes. He’s a genius with carbon fibre. In one video I think he said he was asked to repair a frame by Specialized he quoted something like 200-300 in dollars, I presume as he’s an Aussie , they declined as they said they could easily make a frame for less.
Excellent video, I built a Trifox light frame ( given at 900 grams frame only) with Shimano 105. Arrived at around 7.5 kg total, riding for the past three years. No issues so far. Bought the frame in Shenzhen directly at the factory, needless to say service is great. Got the handlebar from them as well, one piece molded.
Great info! Thanks for sharing. I've been racing a Chinese enduro carbon frame since 2 years ago, and I've been very happy with it. Right now I'm on the 2nd frame, but I change it only to change size. No problems at all! Frame is an Ican P9, highly recommended.
Thanks for your sacrifice! 😅 My first go round with Chinese carbon I purposely bought a road frame that was a bit beefier as most failures at that time were from the frames attempting to be ultralight climbing frames. That bike served me well for thousands of miles and is still going strong on its third owner. I also rode some Chinese road and mtb wheels. Chinese carbon has come a long way. Now I have a Chinese gravel frame on order. 🎉
the white material you found may be a milled filling foam used to wrap carbon-fiber around: you can have a shape designed to withstand force, without having to layer carbon solid
the "Carbon expert" is wrong in his assumption that the white stuff is escaped resin during compression. It is an intentional syntactic filler that fills the cavity and prevents non-compression zones.
I haven't read the comments, so I'm sure others have mentioned it, but the flex of the fork is a nonissue once the wheel is connected to it. I'm a carpenter, and I deal with wood designs from houses to furniture all the time, and this same principle is seen a lot in many structural designs. There is nothing to fear from the flex in that fork.
I find it hard to believe that that large white section in the fork could be solid epoxy resin that's a huge span with few voids. Given the geometry at the section is quite complex it wouldn't surprise me if an expanding syntactic foam was used. In order to get even/reliable pressure distribution to the carbon in that difficult region. Other manufacturers do this in localised areas. Depending on how restricted it is to expansion will alter its density.
I came here to say the same thing. Pretty sure that's a structural foam insert to fill that void and create the shape in a way that wouldn't be possible with air bladders
The "Carbon expert" is wrong in his assumption that the white stuff is escaped resin during compression. It is an intentional syntactic filler that fills the cavity and prevents non-compression zones.
Hands down the best bike/carbon/manufacturing video of the decade! Wow! This wad so much fun to watch. Chinese frames have never been a hotter topic than now with economics going south and price increases in combination with Chinese frames actually being rideable just a question of how good. Please continue these kind of videos ❤️❤️ you make all other TH-camrs look like total wankers
Good to hear you found the video useful! I'll do my best to keep these videos coming. As the channel grows I'l have more money to reinvest and make this type of video 👍🏽
First, I hope you are wearing eye and breathing protection when you were doing all that cutting. Second, I'd like to know if you expect the problem with the fork to cause a catastrophic failure or more of a slow break with maybe the headset getting loose and letting you know there's a problem. Thanks for the great content.
Thanks for this video! I keep watching videos where other channels refer to something as 'cheap carbon', 'nice carbon', etc. Had no idea what that even means.
1) Please, if you care anything about your own health, when you're cutting carbon fiber wear a respirator and cut over a vacuum table. Carbon splinters and dust are inert particles your body doesn't register as foreign bodies and will sit in your lungs and in your own skin not actively expelled by the body's immune system. 2) It's actually fairly easy to source mainstream manufacturer bike frames to cut up. They're called warranty repair or crashed bikes. Warranty repair only requires the shop to destroy the frame, would consider what you're trying to do destructive. ;) 3) If the repair expert says the forks are likely something he doesn't feel confident in, why do you end up saying you're going to keep buying them and running them? Simply buy another reputable fork and run that. Paint/decal it however you want.
Thabk you, finally someone says it. I was baffled by the recklessness in this video. I always hoped they at least wore FFP2 masks, but obviously, nothing at all. Cancer incoming. Sad, but that guy's own fault.
@@donfuan76 by your standard, I should be dead by now. But alas 40 years in and I have yet to see myself, let alone a colleague suffer any these life threatening issues. Yes, we wear PPE, but it's never a sure thing and we can and do inhale dust in small amounts.
The problem with the top end is that at the end of the day, the adepts will still buy it even if it will be shit. Oh, that's this particular manufacturer did a bad frame, the other one does it better. Or, oh, that was 2019's frame, nowadays they do better quality and stuff like that.
Thanks for taking the time and associated costs to inform your audience of the quality of lower cost frames. The thermodynamics of moisture inside the frame without suitable egress is concerning to observe. Couple that with the use of dissimilar ferrous with nonferrous fasteners creating electrolysis and hastening oxidation. Better standards for fasteners and ventilation are in order.
Now i wanna see you cut up the elves or the New falath evo and have Rob analyse it. Convince elves its good marketing stunt to donate their brand New frame for testing
Have a Trifox X16 for 2 years, 6.8kg without luxury parts. Got hit by a car from behind, very nasty hit and run, my rear wheel cracked off course and the frame is still absolutely perfect. I did not believe it survived this massive shock, the frame is really super strong, even weightneing 865g (49cm). Trifox is a great brand.
I've had more than a fair share of carbon stuff fail. Not all the stuff I've owned has failed because I got ride of it before it failed. But I am 100% convinced that carbon doesn't belong on a bicycle. The bike I have chosen to build is titanium, and the components I've chosen to put on it are made of metals not carbon. I am only stuck with one part left made of carbon and that is the fork. I am searching for someone that can make me a fork design I like, one that looks like the ENVE I have, and I will pay any amount to get it done. I know my bike is heavy and not what I would choose if I was a racer but I don't race. I just want to ride a beautiful bike safely. Your videos exposing the carbon truths are fantastic and I only wish that anyone and everyone considering spending thousands of dollars on a new bike would watch your videos before buying a carbon bike. There is nothing wrong with steel, aluminum, and titanium bikes other than people just think they don't look as cool as carbon. What do they want a bike that is cool and probably won't last 10 years or a bike that is safe and actually worth laying down that hard earned cash. You deserve some type of award for making these videos because they are very educational and well done. 👍👍
For this test to have any validity you would have to cut up a number of frames from that production run. Shoddy manufacturing can mean sloppy construction, inconsistent construction, or both - among other factors like poor QC etc.
I always lubricate all screws that thread into the frame because the methods of removing a frozen bolt/screw (solvents, lubricants, tapping, drilling, high torque loads) can damage the frame. Cut a Time and Look apart; the story I have heard is that they are some of the best
They put a lot of effort into making the whole bike safe so I wouldn't write off the fork straight away. We still don't know what those white bits are. The black stuff is thin, but the white bits they're stuck to are thick.
The white stuff is just a filler compound. Its not actually impregnated with carbon or anything. You also see it on cheaply built frames to fill space around the BB (particularly wider areas where the BB and chainstay meet) and rear dropout. More structurally sound than just empty space but its not a component to resist shearing forces, which would be what that suspicious thinned joiner of the fork would fail to.
Very interesting video with a lot of good insights about carbon bicycle frame construction. There was one thing that struck me hard though - seeing a person cutting through the carbon reinforced material with no gloves, and presumably, no mask as well. That is extremely ignorant and can be dangerous in the long run. When machining, carbon reinforced material does not turn into powder, but into micro needles which can penetrate skin and tissues in our respiratory system easily. Our bodies don't recognize carbon as foreign dangerous material and don't attempt to shed it.
If you want to cut up an expensive one, just ask any bike shop, who do warranty frame replacements. They have to cut them up so they can't be resold, but that's ok, you can still do further cutting for inspections.
I've had this frame since 2020. I ride it as hard as i can and try to break it so it gives me an excuse to buy a new frame. It's still going strong with zero cracks. Seems like they are focusing on the negatives of the frame on the 1st video and this one. It's been working fine for regular people like me that ride their bike everyday. "It's not aero" who cares about that when majority of people riding bikes are not racing. Plus wind blows in different directions. Can you be aero 360 degrees all the time? LOL. It's kinda racist when you say these Chinese people don't know how to design a frame. You don't know their background. You can view it as they designed this frame to minimize cost so they can pass the savings to consumers. This is actually a cool looking frame. Who really is ripping you off, the company who sells you a $500 frame or another who sells a $3000 frame with all the same ingredients but different form? Carbon frames degrade over time, i rather pay less per frame. I also believe there is a law that frames are required to have a strength tolerance in order to sell in western countries.
Very interesting video. Even these "cheap" frames are very impressive. I was thinking why don't they use stainless steel fittings for the bottle mounts?
A very interesting and informative video. Regardless of the frame quality, I personally would prefer to buy non-Chinese products all together. Simply because we have allowed technology to be transferred to China, just to satisfy our desire for cheaper products. I just don’t want to support their economy but prefer to buy European if possible and secondly non Chinese. It would be interesting to see how a “western” frame stack up.
The big brand companies like Giant, Trek, specialize and others are made in Taiwan so even though they are made by Chinese they are not made in mainland China. Taiwan makes some of the best bike frames in the world. I would trust them over any frame made in mainland China. Mainland China is known to cut corners and go as cheap as they can. Not something I'm willing to risk my life over. There are video's of people trying out the cheap frames made in mainland China. They ended up in the hospital, and their bike snapped by basic stuff where it shouldn't have.
It is not as simple as saying that the white layer is epoxy. The epoxy is everywhere. The white layer could be glass, or a thickened epoxy ( syntactic), to bulk up the laminate.
Dude you remind me of Owen Hargreaves. Please tell me the guy dremeling that frame had a mask on and I mean a real good mask. Carbon fiber dust is a very dangerous (very carcinogenic) thing to be breathing in. 9:52 that totally caught me off guard hahaha *Sheldon*
Excellent 2 part insight to carbon frames. Overall the frame was well made and the forks , lets say still a ???? Would it be better to but a Planet X fork on instead? Cheap option. Has anyone done a long term test on this frame? It would be nice to know. I am looking to get a hard tail mtb frame to build or a complete bike.
Maybe if people out there have old carbon frames they are not using or have a frame that got damaged and they don’t use they could send to you for deconstruction.
Great video. This bike has endorsement from Hambini and Rob was loving it but then he turns heel pretty fast, and yourself as well🤔🤔 Then you and Rob run to Elves as Everyone did, and like Cam found out they are completely inconsistent..The Trifox looks way more robust than the likes of Giant etc 👍👍👍
Thanks for sharing man. This video made me subscribe to your channel. I’m looking around and doing research about these type of frames to build a every day race bike. I was looking at the Trifox X16 and 18 also at the Elves and the Velobuild. I believe the Velobuild is cheap but with a good reputation. What about you do a review just like this one? I’ve learned that the VB-R 177 has a higher quality carbon level comparing with the VB-R 168 Thanks ones again Greetings from Curacao 🇨🇼 ✌🏽
You know trifox is no better than Winspace right? Trifox almost like velobuild/copy frame build, no UCI approved unit in Trifox. Other Chinese brand like ELVES, PARDUS, JAVA, from Indonesia POLYGON and from Taiwan GUSTO already enter international race like LTD? The frame cost 2/3 lower than top frame such Trek, Specialized (Aethos/SL7) Do you wonder how the top brand frames look in the inside?
Hey man ever thought of cutting an eleves falath frame in half next time? since im now curious regarding how the frame is built. Its okay if you dont haha. Anyways nice video im getting hooked into this.
there is a huge epoxy pocket in the seat clamp, with an air void in it. And the horizontal bolt hole appears to go through it (see 9:50) That seems a little sketchy to me, especially considering how much torque seat clamp bolts need to keep the saddle in place.
It looks like Trifox are making serious attempt to make decent frames, so I wonder did you show them your video? Would be interesting to hear what they have to say about the potential flaw on an otherwise pretty solid frame.
The white material in the fork is polymethacrylimide, it's a foam material used in places where full carbon is not needed but whzre halow carbon could be faulty, it adds rigidity and dampening so.. a logical material for a fork head
As seen in the vid, the frame is good for its value, its just that the fork had some issues. To conclude, if I was to buy the frame only and a better carbon fork, would I be more safe than haveeing the stock fork from the frame set?
Potentially, I guess you never truly know Most of these frames have specific forks so you can't buy a different fork. Not always the case but that's my experience with aero frames.
Chinese everything is cheap garbage. you seriously brainwashed to believe otherwise? they also had a slave child make it for you. believe whatever you want though. nobody cares.
You know what I'm honestly dying to know. Why have mountain bike frames gotten so heavy in the past 3 years. I would love to see a cut-up because I bet you anything they are using lower grades of carbon to save $$ and also more of it
Hi, great video. Now liked and subscribed. Sorry to be the fun police, but just wanted to add, if you're cutting or grinding carbon you need to wear a dust mask to the correct rating. Carbon dust, when inhaled, is a known carcinogenic 👍🏻
This is why open hardware frames are better. Yes, they doesn't look pretty (like replicas), but such issues like with that fork joints are not a subject in that case. You can make them less boring with some paint I guess.
I have a trifox X18, and it goes fine in a straight line, but it does wonky stuff in a turns (when not even near the limit either). It is not confidence inspiring at all. Not a bike that can be raced. Probably fine if you are just doing straight fast group rides without many turns.
bro does it bend horizontaly to the left/right? had the same concern since that carbon at the radius looked so thin yet we didnt get a cut looking at the front of the fork which is the most important
would find ur detailed feedback very helpful, there was a video comparing trifox to elves, by an aussie guy and the elves fork legs didnt flex as much as trifox'. wonder if the elves beats it
This is funny, but the manufacturing process I developed using water borne epoxy strengthened the tube corners. The secret is external instead of internal compression.
On one hand, why bother with cheap carbon crap? On the other hand, "proper" carbon is so overpriced that I'd rather spend the money on a beautiful fully custom steel frame built to order. Yeah, it'll probably be heavier, but like most mere mortals, I'm way above racing weight for a lighter bike to make ANY difference at all. Want to save some weight for free? Just pee or take a shit before heading out. 🤷♂
I make kitchen cabinets, and I can relate how you can want quality for cheaper prices, but in the real world, it doesn't work like that, at least in mine.
Great finally see a frame cut in half to see the inside and have an expert opinion. Are you gonna do the same with the defy and the elves for comparison? 😂
Surely, Rob must get his hands on high-end current frames that have been accident damaged beyond repair. How about cutting some of those up, considering there is no expense to purchase?
Rob kindly donated a few frames, one being a Canyon that was in my previous video - th-cam.com/video/pYBY78-zs7Q/w-d-xo.html - It the frames are worth saving the Rob's company will save them so getting my hands on high end frames isn't the easiest. 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman Jourdain, I watched this with extra interest as I have a bxt frame. Ive had it for over a year 2 even, rode it in all weathers -5c to 35c, from 0mph for 53mph.. I bought it from the viewpoint that an original frame of China is better than a frame made for a western company, the only prob I've had with it is a new drop-out..I wish you well with your TH-cam videos 👌
I'm not an expert or anything, but at 10:55 you highlight the fact that there is a big problem with the thickness of the carbon fiber in that area and therefore expert Rob would not endorse that frame for that "defect". But it is also observed that there is a large amount of epoxy which, in my opinion, would reinforce all that part, since it is not hollow and if the carbon fiber were to split, that same epoxy would not allow it to split completely and would remain firm. So if the concern is the millimeter thickness of that "defect", then what can you tell me about the thickness of the carbon fiber rims that support the entire weight of the person and the bicycle? I hope you can answer this question because as I said at the beginning I am not an expert in this matter and I would appreciate any comments. I congratulate you for these videos with very important content such as knowing the structure and the demonstrated engineering of these frames in CF for the enjoyment of all of us who are interested in these topics.
You can see a comparison here to another set of forks - th-cam.com/video/YNZS3b3PJ1E/w-d-xo.html - The thickness of the fork on the crown race is one of the most important parts of the bike under lots of stress from impact. If it breaks... you are crashing. Rims are a different beast and not really a like for like for like comparison. I have some more carbon content coming soon so stay tuned 👍🏽
Hmm, so what is the difference between a ''cheap chinese'' and a ''expensive chinese'' carbon frame? Would you say that Trek carbon bikes have a cheap or expensive chinese carbon frame?
It's just such a shame that basically all the time it's like: Oh this looks decent for the price, then on the end.... The one most important spot, an essential stress point of the fork: fail....My personal question: when did you order the frame? Was that shortly after/before Chinese newyear? Edit: Also curious if you contact the manufacturer and what their response is.
Most Western brand frames are made in China of Taiwan; even some very expensive and beautifully crafted Titanium frames are made in China. Ultimately you "get what you pay for" when you go ch=eap, but sometimes you also get crap for a high price. That fame is actually a bargain, and you could install a better fork if that is the weak point.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
Checkout part one of this series here - th-cam.com/video/iLOU0D7mSjU/w-d-xo.html
The price of chinese manufacturing is not just the retail price of the product. The PRC has the strategy of world domination in manufacturing. That would be bad enough for consumer freedom if it was just restricted to produce. However PRC is committed to unfair trade practices, disrespect of intellectual property rights and human rights in general.
So the true cost of a cheap £300 frame, if PRC is successful with their strategy is much greater including loss of consumer choice at elections, where and how to make a living at work and your human rights.
So you still have the choice of product and country of origin for now.
Use it wisely as PRC are not our friends..
@@lonpfrb I think you've been taking in too much Western propaganda. Maybe ease off a bit.
I know all about cheap crap from China. I worked at WalMart for seventeen years.
@@mannacler WalMart has cheap crap because that's exactly what they specified and ordered. It's what Americans want.
@@trevc yes, completely agree. He should eat a snicker 🍫
This is an incredible peak behind the curtain for carbon products in general and bar no one else is posting this information, Thank you so much.
Glad it was helpful! 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman The longitudinal cuts helped me to understand wall thicknesses.
@Jourdain Coleman
Excellent investigation, well presented.
The price of chinese manufacturing is not just the retail price of the product. The PRC has the strategy of world domination in manufacturing. That would be bad enough for consumer freedom if it was just restricted to produce. However PRC is committed to unfair trade practices, disrespect of intellectual property rights and human rights in general.
So the true cost of a cheap £300 frame, if PRC is successful with their strategy is much greater including loss of consumer choice at elections, where and how to make a living at work and your human rights.
So you still have the choice of product and country of origin for now.
Use it wisely as PRC are not our friends..
From what I've seen, that frame looks better on the inside than my 11 year old top model Merida Time Warp.
stop trying to justify your bad purchase decision
That frame looks better made than many of the frames I've seen cut up by Raul at Luescher Technik. He has shown huge issues with super expensive brands. At the end of the day though carbon fibre is a hand made process with lots of potential for faults. It's the most advanced material with the least advanced manufacturing in many ways. From what I've seen that is a maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 frame. Overall good I would say. I'm not a performance cyclist though and have zero use for such a bike, I don't need to have a lightweight weak bike it serves no purpose for me and they aren't environmentally friendly. Titanium, steel and aluminium can all be fully recycled and have much better manufacturing consistency. I totally understand the appeal of CF for competitive cyclists though.
All good points! I've watched a few of his videos and they are interesting for sure.
It pains me to say it but that frame is better made than some of the top brands.
I rank reality!
Perhaps Jourdain could get a Trek, Giant, Cannondale frame that is few years and cut it up for comparison, as one way of getting around the cost issue. Or perhaps buy a crashed / damaged ‘ Western’ and do a similar dissection. A woman in our club had a high end Ridley which failed around the head tube which was replaced under warranty. She said the LBS she bought the bike from said the frame only cost ‘a couple of hundred ££ quite astonishing given the the retail price of complete bike or frame only. 🤔
It's funny you think of them as cheap. The Chinese have been making carbonfibre tubes far longer than anyone else in the world. Their mastery of the art of carbonfibre is years ahead of anyone else in the world. You have just been conditioned by bike manufacturers to think brand name carbon is expensive.
Great vid, really appreciate the cut up off the frame. Very interesting.
Luescher Teknik has great cut ups, also , frames are a bit old but very good to see all different makes. He’s a genius with carbon fibre.
In one video I think he said he was asked to repair a frame by Specialized he quoted something like 200-300 in dollars, I presume as he’s an Aussie , they declined as they said they could easily make a frame for less.
@@hughstultz7849 there a lots of videos on here of them brands betting cut up
If more videos like this are made, it would encourage more manufacturers to do better regardless of price point
Excellent video, I built a Trifox light frame ( given at 900 grams frame only) with Shimano 105. Arrived at around 7.5 kg total, riding for the past three years. No issues so far. Bought the frame in Shenzhen directly at the factory, needless to say service is great. Got the handlebar from them as well, one piece molded.
Great info! Thanks for sharing. I've been racing a Chinese enduro carbon frame since 2 years ago, and I've been very happy with it. Right now I'm on the 2nd frame, but I change it only to change size. No problems at all! Frame is an Ican P9, highly recommended.
Great to hear it worked out well for you 👍🏽 I've looked at ican frames recently
Cheap and quality are 2 words that are worlds apart.
Trace Velo had a Trifox frame which he threw in the bin.....says it all really
wow, yes I'll agree with comments here, that frame is very well made for the price!
The white foam bit in the fork is not epoxy, it's an insert
good thing you're here to correct the experts who do it for a living and produced an instructional video about it! 🥱😴
Thanks for your sacrifice! 😅
My first go round with Chinese carbon I purposely bought a road frame that was a bit beefier as most failures at that time were from the frames attempting to be ultralight climbing frames.
That bike served me well for thousands of miles and is still going strong on its third owner.
I also rode some Chinese road and mtb wheels.
Chinese carbon has come a long way. Now I have a Chinese gravel frame on order. 🎉
Please continue to do this testing. You can become the " project farm" of testers for bicycle frames.
“We’re gonna test that!”
the white material you found may be a milled filling foam used to wrap carbon-fiber around: you can have a shape designed to withstand force, without having to layer carbon solid
what material is it?
Looks like a PMI foam core. @@hash-CCFF00
the "Carbon expert" is wrong in his assumption that the white stuff is escaped resin during compression. It is an intentional syntactic filler that fills the cavity and prevents non-compression zones.
I learned more about carbon frame technology from this 2-part series than from any other videos on youtube! Thank you!
Glad the videos have been insightful! 👍🏽
I haven't read the comments, so I'm sure others have mentioned it, but the flex of the fork is a nonissue once the wheel is connected to it. I'm a carpenter, and I deal with wood designs from houses to furniture all the time, and this same principle is seen a lot in many structural designs.
There is nothing to fear from the flex in that fork.
I find it hard to believe that that large white section in the fork could be solid epoxy resin that's a huge span with few voids. Given the geometry at the section is quite complex it wouldn't surprise me if an expanding syntactic foam was used. In order to get even/reliable pressure distribution to the carbon in that difficult region. Other manufacturers do this in localised areas. Depending on how restricted it is to expansion will alter its density.
I came here to say the same thing. Pretty sure that's a structural foam insert to fill that void and create the shape in a way that wouldn't be possible with air bladders
@@galenkehler so what the fuck is it
The "Carbon expert" is wrong in his assumption that the white stuff is escaped resin during compression. It is an intentional syntactic filler that fills the cavity and prevents non-compression zones.
Yes, I too would like to see 'branded' frames subject to this degree of inspection, but I understand the problem!!
Hands down the best bike/carbon/manufacturing video of the decade! Wow! This wad so much fun to watch. Chinese frames have never been a hotter topic than now with economics going south and price increases in combination with Chinese frames actually being rideable just a question of how good. Please continue these kind of videos ❤️❤️ you make all other TH-camrs look like total wankers
Good to hear you found the video useful! I'll do my best to keep these videos coming. As the channel grows I'l have more money to reinvest and make this type of video 👍🏽
First, I hope you are wearing eye and breathing protection when you were doing all that cutting. Second, I'd like to know if you expect the problem with the fork to cause a catastrophic failure or more of a slow break with maybe the headset getting loose and letting you know there's a problem. Thanks for the great content.
You can see he is at a couple of points. Don't worry!
Thanks for this video! I keep watching videos where other channels refer to something as 'cheap carbon', 'nice carbon', etc. Had no idea what that even means.
1) Please, if you care anything about your own health, when you're cutting carbon fiber wear a respirator and cut over a vacuum table. Carbon splinters and dust are inert particles your body doesn't register as foreign bodies and will sit in your lungs and in your own skin not actively expelled by the body's immune system.
2) It's actually fairly easy to source mainstream manufacturer bike frames to cut up. They're called warranty repair or crashed bikes. Warranty repair only requires the shop to destroy the frame, would consider what you're trying to do destructive. ;)
3) If the repair expert says the forks are likely something he doesn't feel confident in, why do you end up saying you're going to keep buying them and running them? Simply buy another reputable fork and run that. Paint/decal it however you want.
Thabk you, finally someone says it. I was baffled by the recklessness in this video. I always hoped they at least wore FFP2 masks, but obviously, nothing at all. Cancer incoming. Sad, but that guy's own fault.
@@donfuan76 by your standard, I should be dead by now. But alas 40 years in and I have yet to see myself, let alone a colleague suffer any these life threatening issues. Yes, we wear PPE, but it's never a sure thing and we can and do inhale dust in small amounts.
Cut up a top end frame and compare......
you're a demon!
Hopefully as the channel grows I can buy top end frames and create a similar videos 👍🏽
The problem with the top end is that at the end of the day, the adepts will still buy it even if it will be shit.
Oh, that's this particular manufacturer did a bad frame, the other one does it better.
Or, oh, that was 2019's frame, nowadays they do better quality and stuff like that.
@@rand_kk sad truth
LUESCHER TEKNIK on TH-cam does this. People donate crashed bikes. Lots of high end carbon bikes.
Thanks for taking the time and associated costs to inform your audience of the quality of lower cost frames.
The thermodynamics of moisture inside the frame without suitable egress is concerning to observe. Couple that with the use of dissimilar ferrous with nonferrous fasteners creating electrolysis and hastening oxidation. Better standards for fasteners and ventilation are in order.
Great point! I guess over time this would have would only have gotten worse. Glad you enjoyed the video 👍🏽
the White section is a core, as others have pointed out. The "Jam-in-the-sandwich" are not squished epoxy but unidirectional layers,
Good to see some PPE during the cutting (well at least glimpses)
I saw both of the videos and you're doing a great job. I hope you will continue doing these kind of clips. Greetings from Chiang Mai, Thailand.
Thank you very much! Good to hear you enjoyed the videos 👍🏽
Thank you for this awesome video. I am almost sure if you do the same detailed inspection of brand name frames , you find defects in their frame too.
Yeah it would be interesting for sure. Hopefully in the future as the channel grows 👍🏽
Now i wanna see you cut up the elves or the New falath evo and have Rob analyse it. Convince elves its good marketing stunt to donate their brand New frame for testing
Maybe in the future. We shall see. 🤔
Have a Trifox X16 for 2 years, 6.8kg without luxury parts. Got hit by a car from behind, very nasty hit and run, my rear wheel cracked off course and the frame is still absolutely perfect. I did not believe it survived this massive shock, the frame is really super strong, even weightneing 865g (49cm). Trifox is a great brand.
I've had more than a fair share of carbon stuff fail. Not all the stuff I've owned has failed because I got ride of it before it failed. But I am 100% convinced that carbon doesn't belong on a bicycle. The bike I have chosen to build is titanium, and the components I've chosen to put on it are made of metals not carbon. I am only stuck with one part left made of carbon and that is the fork. I am searching for someone that can make me a fork design I like, one that looks like the ENVE I have, and I will pay any amount to get it done. I know my bike is heavy and not what I would choose if I was a racer but I don't race. I just want to ride a beautiful bike safely. Your videos exposing the carbon truths are fantastic and I only wish that anyone and everyone considering spending thousands of dollars on a new bike would watch your videos before buying a carbon bike. There is nothing wrong with steel, aluminum, and titanium bikes other than people just think they don't look as cool as carbon. What do they want a bike that is cool and probably won't last 10 years or a bike that is safe and actually worth laying down that hard earned cash. You deserve some type of award for making these videos because they are very educational and well done. 👍👍
Thanks for the great examination on an import frame. It revealed a ton of great information.
Was looking forward to this, it didn't disappoint. Another great vid, thanks JC.
Glad you enjoyed it
For this test to have any validity you would have to cut up a number of frames from that production run. Shoddy manufacturing can mean sloppy construction, inconsistent construction, or both - among other factors like poor QC etc.
Except an area on the fork that had too thin carbon on a safety critical area.
I always lubricate all screws that thread into the frame because the methods of removing a frozen bolt/screw (solvents, lubricants, tapping, drilling, high torque loads) can damage the frame. Cut a Time and Look apart; the story I have heard is that they are some of the best
They put a lot of effort into making the whole bike safe so I wouldn't write off the fork straight away. We still don't know what those white bits are. The black stuff is thin, but the white bits they're stuck to are thick.
The white stuff is just a filler compound. Its not actually impregnated with carbon or anything. You also see it on cheaply built frames to fill space around the BB (particularly wider areas where the BB and chainstay meet) and rear dropout. More structurally sound than just empty space but its not a component to resist shearing forces, which would be what that suspicious thinned joiner of the fork would fail to.
we need a video like this on the Elves Falath
Excellent video mate!!! Good info and explanation of the information! Thanks for doing it... I really enjoyed it! Cheers
Glad you enjoyed 👍🏽
100% would love this to become a Rose Anvil style product dissection channel.
Very interesting video with a lot of good insights about carbon bicycle frame construction. There was one thing that struck me hard though - seeing a person cutting through the carbon reinforced material with no gloves, and presumably, no mask as well. That is extremely ignorant and can be dangerous in the long run. When machining, carbon reinforced material does not turn into powder, but into micro needles which can penetrate skin and tissues in our respiratory system easily. Our bodies don't recognize carbon as foreign dangerous material and don't attempt to shed it.
If you want to cut up an expensive one, just ask any bike shop, who do warranty frame replacements. They have to cut them up so they can't be resold, but that's ok, you can still do further cutting for inspections.
I've had this frame since 2020. I ride it as hard as i can and try to break it so it gives me an excuse to buy a new frame. It's still going strong with zero cracks. Seems like they are focusing on the negatives of the frame on the 1st video and this one. It's been working fine for regular people like me that ride their bike everyday. "It's not aero" who cares about that when majority of people riding bikes are not racing. Plus wind blows in different directions. Can you be aero 360 degrees all the time? LOL. It's kinda racist when you say these Chinese people don't know how to design a frame. You don't know their background. You can view it as they designed this frame to minimize cost so they can pass the savings to consumers. This is actually a cool looking frame. Who really is ripping you off, the company who sells you a $500 frame or another who sells a $3000 frame with all the same ingredients but different form? Carbon frames degrade over time, i rather pay less per frame. I also believe there is a law that frames are required to have a strength tolerance in order to sell in western countries.
Very interesting video. Even these "cheap" frames are very impressive. I was thinking why don't they use stainless steel fittings for the bottle mounts?
So sounds like the best bet would be to to get only a frame by Trifox, and fork from another brand?
A very interesting and informative video. Regardless of the frame quality, I personally would prefer to buy non-Chinese products all together. Simply because we have allowed technology to be transferred to China, just to satisfy our desire for cheaper products. I just don’t want to support their economy but prefer to buy European if possible and secondly non Chinese. It would be interesting to see how a “western” frame stack up.
The big brand companies like Giant, Trek, specialize and others are made in Taiwan so even though they are made by Chinese they are not made in mainland China. Taiwan makes some of the best bike frames in the world. I would trust them over any frame made in mainland China. Mainland China is known to cut corners and go as cheap as they can. Not something I'm willing to risk my life over. There are video's of people trying out the cheap frames made in mainland China. They ended up in the hospital, and their bike snapped by basic stuff where it shouldn't have.
It is not as simple as saying that the white layer is epoxy. The epoxy is everywhere. The white layer could be glass, or a thickened epoxy ( syntactic), to bulk up the laminate.
you're missing the point. carbon sucks. alloy dominates.
People need to distinguish between Taiwan and Mainland China. There is a difference in quality.
Why do you do THIS.
Ride it ! 🤩
Regards from Germany. 🙂👍🤓
Dude you remind me of Owen Hargreaves. Please tell me the guy dremeling that frame had a mask on and I mean a real good mask. Carbon fiber dust is a very dangerous (very carcinogenic) thing to be breathing in. 9:52 that totally caught me off guard hahaha *Sheldon*
Excellent 2 part insight to carbon frames.
Overall the frame was well made and the forks , lets say still a ????
Would it be better to but a Planet X fork on instead? Cheap option.
Has anyone done a long term test on this frame? It would be nice to know.
I am looking to get a hard tail mtb frame to build or a complete bike.
I'm riding a cheap Ican frame, it is simply amazing, a lot of bang for my buck
Many thanks for your efforts involved for your content.
Glad you enjoyed the video
Maybe if people out there have old carbon frames they are not using or have a frame that got damaged and they don’t use they could send to you for deconstruction.
Agreed, I'm sure I can get my hands on some decent cheap frames somewhere 👀
Great video. This bike has endorsement from Hambini and Rob was loving it but then he turns heel pretty fast, and yourself as well🤔🤔 Then you and Rob run to Elves as Everyone did, and like Cam found out they are completely inconsistent..The Trifox looks way more robust than the likes of Giant etc 👍👍👍
Thanks for sharing man. This video made me subscribe to your channel.
I’m looking around and doing research about these type of frames to build a every day race bike.
I was looking at the Trifox X16 and 18 also at the Elves and the Velobuild. I believe the Velobuild is cheap but with a good reputation. What about you do a review just like this one?
I’ve learned that the VB-R 177 has a higher quality carbon level comparing with the VB-R 168
Thanks ones again
Greetings from Curacao 🇨🇼 ✌🏽
Glad to have you on board and I'm pleased the video was helpful for you! I have a few frames coming so hopefully those videos/reviews help you 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman Appreciate that. I have time. My project will start mid 2023
to 2024
Those forks become an assembly once the wheel is installed, so squeezing the fork legs in that direction doesn't make much sense.
Yeah, Rob did mention that It's interesting to see none the less 👍🏽
think again, you put stress on them at the turns. the important spot is the radius
@@hash-CCFF00 And of course, the wheel is installed while making turns...
Phew! I was just about to pull the trigger on this frame! Thanks 😊
No problem 👍
Both Hambini and Lukas Euscher (sp?) have demonstrated that Western frame, coming from the same factories, are prone to some of the same problems.
Raoul from Luescher Teknik (Melbourne, Australia)
@@richardggeorge yep, that's the one. Thanks.
Thanks for another very educational video.
Good to hear you enjoyed the video 👍🏽
I wonder how the Winspace frames look. Got my subscription
You know trifox is no better than Winspace right? Trifox almost like velobuild/copy frame build, no UCI approved unit in Trifox.
Other Chinese brand like ELVES, PARDUS, JAVA, from Indonesia POLYGON and from Taiwan GUSTO already enter international race like LTD? The frame cost 2/3 lower than top frame such Trek, Specialized (Aethos/SL7)
Do you wonder how the top brand frames look in the inside?
@@apair4002 winspace is same price as elves
Hey man ever thought of cutting an eleves falath frame in half next time? since im now curious regarding how the frame is built. Its okay if you dont haha. Anyways nice video im getting hooked into this.
Interesting and informative. So, it seems... frame good, fork bad.
there is a huge epoxy pocket in the seat clamp, with an air void in it. And the horizontal bolt hole appears to go through it (see 9:50) That seems a little sketchy to me, especially considering how much torque seat clamp bolts need to keep the saddle in place.
It looks like Trifox are making serious attempt to make decent frames, so I wonder did you show them your video? Would be interesting to hear what they have to say about the potential flaw on an otherwise pretty solid frame.
do you mask up when grinding or just hold breath ?
Have you tried the savadeck falicon road bikes? I would like to get one but I would like someone to review it first.
The white material in the fork is polymethacrylimide, it's a foam material used in places where full carbon is not needed but whzre halow carbon could be faulty, it adds rigidity and dampening so.. a logical material for a fork head
Either that or syntactic foam
Its made the same as specialized and trek and giant
you wouldn't know how it or anything else is made
As seen in the vid, the frame is good for its value, its just that the fork had some issues. To conclude, if I was to buy the frame only and a better carbon fork, would I be more safe than haveeing the stock fork from the frame set?
Potentially, I guess you never truly know Most of these frames have specific forks so you can't buy a different fork. Not always the case but that's my experience with aero frames.
Chinese bikes are not cheap. Branded bikes are overpriced.
Chinese everything is cheap garbage. you seriously brainwashed to believe otherwise? they also had a slave child make it for you. believe whatever you want though. nobody cares.
You know what I'm honestly dying to know. Why have mountain bike frames gotten so heavy in the past 3 years. I would love to see a cut-up because I bet you anything they are using lower grades of carbon to save $$ and also more of it
I"ve wondered that myself. Is it a CYA effort from all the gonzo riders breaking frames?
why in the past 3 years have you gotten it in your head that you need a lighter bike to travel....DOWN hill?
How much lateral flex is that fork really going to experience once there is a thru-axle screwed through there?
This is cool. Do a trek. I love the treks but that price is getting up there. Would love to see what Im paying for.
Hi, great video. Now liked and subscribed. Sorry to be the fun police, but just wanted to add, if you're cutting or grinding carbon you need to wear a dust mask to the correct rating. Carbon dust, when inhaled, is a known carcinogenic 👍🏻
Thanks for the tips and the sub! Glad you enjoyed the video
This is why open hardware frames are better. Yes, they doesn't look pretty (like replicas), but such issues like with that fork joints are not a subject in that case. You can make them less boring with some paint I guess.
You just earned a subscriber.
Welcome!
YOU DID A SANDY MUNRO JOB IN CARBON BIKES INDEED WELL DONE...
I have a trifox X18, and it goes fine in a straight line, but it does wonky stuff in a turns (when not even near the limit either). It is not confidence inspiring at all. Not a bike that can be raced. Probably fine if you are just doing straight fast group rides without many turns.
Interesting to hear 🤔
bro does it bend horizontaly to the left/right? had the same concern since that carbon at the radius looked so thin yet we didnt get a cut looking at the front of the fork which is the most important
would find ur detailed feedback very helpful, there was a video comparing trifox to elves, by an aussie guy and the elves fork legs didnt flex as much as trifox'. wonder if the elves beats it
wow this is great, but my request is can you do this to ELVES FRAME like Falath Or Vanyar to see the real quality.
This is funny, but the manufacturing process I developed using water borne epoxy strengthened the tube corners. The secret is external instead of internal compression.
On one hand, why bother with cheap carbon crap? On the other hand, "proper" carbon is so overpriced that I'd rather spend the money on a beautiful fully custom steel frame built to order. Yeah, it'll probably be heavier, but like most mere mortals, I'm way above racing weight for a lighter bike to make ANY difference at all. Want to save some weight for free? Just pee or take a shit before heading out. 🤷♂
😂😂😂
I make kitchen cabinets, and I can relate how you can want quality for cheaper prices, but in the real world, it doesn't work like that, at least in mine.
Great finally see a frame cut in half to see the inside and have an expert opinion. Are you gonna do the same with the defy and the elves for comparison? 😂
hahaha... I'll think I'll ride those bikes 😂 - Although I'm looking for other frames where I can do the same thing.
Thank you for educating us.
Glad I went with Ti instead of plastic.
At the same time, your one was the best one
Chop up a Colnago ya [ok I couldn’t say that] “chicken”.
Off the shelf too, not one they send you. 👍
Great vid
I guess Rob hasn't researched the risks of mesothelioma from carbon fiber dust.
Surely, Rob must get his hands on high-end current frames that have been accident damaged beyond repair. How about cutting some of those up, considering there is no expense to purchase?
Rob kindly donated a few frames, one being a Canyon that was in my previous video - th-cam.com/video/pYBY78-zs7Q/w-d-xo.html - It the frames are worth saving the Rob's company will save them so getting my hands on high end frames isn't the easiest. 👍🏽
It would be HIGHLY INTERESTING to do a top frame...
I'd love to do the same videos on top end frame, I just need to find one that isn't going to require remortgaging the house.
@@JourdainColeman Jourdain, I watched this with extra interest as I have a bxt frame. Ive had it for over a year 2 even, rode it in all weathers -5c to 35c, from 0mph for 53mph.. I bought it from the viewpoint that an original frame of China is better than a frame made for a western company, the only prob I've had with it is a new drop-out..I wish you well with your TH-cam videos 👌
@@leedorney "new drop out" what do you mean? I recently started looking at BXT too
@@jlatnyc As in the 'replaceable drop out', the bit that bolts to the frame
@@leedorney the rear derailleur Hanger?
really impressive ... Thanks for the informations
I'm not an expert or anything, but at 10:55 you highlight the fact that there is a big problem with the thickness of the carbon fiber in that area and therefore expert Rob would not endorse that frame for that "defect". But it is also observed that there is a large amount of epoxy which, in my opinion, would reinforce all that part, since it is not hollow and if the carbon fiber were to split, that same epoxy would not allow it to split completely and would remain firm. So if the concern is the millimeter thickness of that "defect", then what can you tell me about the thickness of the carbon fiber rims that support the entire weight of the person and the bicycle?
I hope you can answer this question because as I said at the beginning I am not an expert in this matter and I would appreciate any comments.
I congratulate you for these videos with very important content such as knowing the structure and the demonstrated engineering of these frames in CF for the enjoyment of all of us who are interested in these topics.
You can see a comparison here to another set of forks - th-cam.com/video/YNZS3b3PJ1E/w-d-xo.html - The thickness of the fork on the crown race is one of the most important parts of the bike under lots of stress from impact. If it breaks... you are crashing. Rims are a different beast and not really a like for like for like comparison. I have some more carbon content coming soon so stay tuned 👍🏽
Hmm, so what is the difference between a ''cheap chinese'' and a ''expensive chinese'' carbon frame? Would you say that Trek carbon bikes have a cheap or expensive chinese carbon frame?
the price
Thank you for this
It's just such a shame that basically all the time it's like: Oh this looks decent for the price, then on the end.... The one most important spot, an essential stress point of the fork: fail....My personal question: when did you order the frame? Was that shortly after/before Chinese newyear?
Edit: Also curious if you contact the manufacturer and what their response is.
Why not use a broken (run over?) frame for inspection?
The next ones will be. But well know frames from western brands with cracks are still pretty expensive.
I want to buy a java lancia gravel carbon but i dont know if is legit it cost around $1800k from ali express
thanks for this video
Glad you enjoyed
Most Western brand frames are made in China of Taiwan; even some very expensive and beautifully crafted Titanium frames are made in China. Ultimately you "get what you pay for" when you go ch=eap, but sometimes you also get crap for a high price. That fame is actually a bargain, and you could install a better fork if that is the weak point.
As smart as this may seem, to destroy the frame.
You can also slide a tiny camera inside the from and check it all out with out ruining it.
Yes Jourdain 👏🏾