I'd say they existed, but as you said... They may been dragons instead of worms. Propably cold drakes. Or drakes without wings. But they also could be real worms. Tolkiens lore is so rich different species and other stuff, so why should it be unlikely to feature worm like creatures? Also he didn't tell a lot about the east or the south and I think it is very possible these foreign lands have animals that western lands would give them monster like names. Thank you for this video :) How about featuring the giants of the mountains in the future? I know of 2 iterations of them. The one of the Hobbit movies and the one in battle for middle earth 2 game. I prefer the second over the first because they fit more into the story of Tolkien and could be very like the ents, just maybe trolls influenced by the water of fangorn? This might be fanfiction, but also plausible.
One thing I thought of when I saw this was that we do not know where the last 4 Dwarven clans were, one thing we do know is that 3 of the Dwarven rings Sauron got back and the others the Dragons held or were destroyed. Wereworms being Dragons adds more then them being literal worms.
These were used in the movie because of the split into three movies. As the battle had to be its own movie, they decided to plan everything out and show movements of armies in detail. (something which ended up looking silly, and was ultimately unnecessary because the battle in the book is more of an intense amorphous experience rather than Waterloo type tactical battle.) Unhappy with orcs simply sneaking up onto the elves and men, they "needed" a way for an army to approach undetected. Hence the tunneling worms.
@@MacbethofGondorSpecially when thinking that, now that you have the worms in the battlefield and they're huge... Why not keep to use them to you know kill the elfs and dwarves? 😂
Fantastic lore video again! Using mod footage for lore videos where you can is a great idea. You could also if you haven’t already thought about it yourself, make videos in the future where you talk about certain battles that happened in the LOTR universe and show them in the mod! Keep it up :)
Mongolian Death Worms: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_death_worm The original Hobbit drafts had "Gobi desert", not "last desert", Tolkien would very likely have been familiar with Roy Chapman Andrews' book, and the timing (1926) is almost exactly spot-on. John D Rateliff even mentions Andrews in his discussion of this passage in History of the Hobbit, but (oddly enough) fails to make the connection to Mongolian Death Worms. The only thing missing is a statement from Tolkien confirming it, but otherwise I consider it 99.9999% likely.
I am a simple Rohirrim, i see a lore video, i click a like. (And i don't think there was Were-Worms in Tolkins world. All those giant worms in deserts start to emerge eveywhere in pop culture since Frank Herberts Dune-Saga (which i like alot) was getting around, in which the Shai-Hulud played a central role.)
Kind of have always been fascinated with giant worm like creatures that move about under the ground. Those things in the hobbit movie reminded me of the first Tremors movie.
@@justchilling704 I mean I know of Dune but I've never watched anything to do with it. A character turns into a worm lol? Not exactly what my interest is but it sounds interesting.
This video is so well done, Macbeth! I think you are right from a lore Tolkien view. But, It would be funny if he did mean Giant Worms in the ground. In turn, does that mean that... Tolkien-inspired DUNE TOO!?!??!?! Haha, this is a half-joke of course. ;) Nice video Friend! (I Think there could be a chance they were real.) But Dragon Idea makes good sense to me too.
I had an idea for the player's role in aiding Sauron. Perhaps giving Sauron the ring could reward the player with a new ring of power, that would essentially make you the 10th Nazgul (although still living). It could come with special stat bonuses, a horse, armor, weapons, and the like. Maybe that would be too far in terms of lore, but it would be the closest to the player becoming a "dark lord".
If you’ve never played shadow of Mordor or shadow of war, they’re based solely on the books and disregard much of the movies aspects. They’re both extremely good games that I can’t recommend enough to someone who enjoys lord of the rings. You see the fall of minis trilieth into minas morgul, among other cool things. It’s rated 9/10 on most reviewers sites too, lastly I got the game for 7$ from a steam sale
@@MacbethofGondor I totally agree, it is still a really cool lord of the rings game though! Even if the lore is really screwed. I’ll probably enjoy kingdoms of arda even more, really can’t wait for that trailer!
Most likely are that Bilbo made up the wereworms alongside the Last desert just to seem tough. I imagine were-worms were intended to be some kind of shapeshifting dragons. What they are based on is most likely stories about shapeshifting-dragons from Norse myth and Scandinavian folklore. (For example the story of Fafnir or the fairytale of Prince Lindworm.) A less likely basis (according to me) are Asian dragons. I'm unsure if the Mongolian Death Worm were any basis for them, but they itknown of in the West since 1926 and it is suposed to live in a far-away desert...
Yeah pretty sure the Mongolian death worm could have been the source of inspiration. Not sure about the shapeshifting part. In reality this is likely one of those minor elements Tolkien added in The Hobbit, but never got around to explain/ flesh out in LOTR, Silmarillion or in any of his notes. Compared to all the other crazy creatures hobbits believe in, it seems reasonable to think it's just another make-belief.
Alright. I'll bite. Teach me about the Were-Worms. I'm not overly familiar with them. I had not remembered them from the books when i watched the Hobbit.
Actually Tolkien's Were-Worms are 99% Long-Worm Dragons, as Worm was used as a world that he used for reptiles and dragons, So they are probably the long dragon species like giant snakes without legs (the same ones which destroyed the gate of Gondolin in the First version I believe and also the same ones which destroyed Tower of Turgon)
@@MacbethofGondor you know Hobbit was written before Tolkien's concept to make his Universe as we know it now so he probably used many similar motives of this Tiny worldbuilding in both the Hobbit and his "mythological ideas" which are now in Tales in books suck as Silmarillion, B&L, FoG, CHoH. Similar example is considering Nameless Things Below the Misty Mountains, in Hobbit Tolkien mentioned some ancient creatures which lurk in the foul darkness in caves. You know many details of Tolkien's worldbuilding is taken from Norse mythology so similar motives would appear throughout his diffrent writtings. Any way going back to The Long-Worm serpents I bielive you can read about them in First versions of Fall of Gondolin, I Don't remember which exactly was that but surely there is smth about, so my assumption was that the Were-Worms were the Long-Worm Dragons or at least similar as it is probably the same motive which appeared in to diffrent writings
@@ellanenish5999 Well we never get to know if were-worms were indeed meant as dragons, but it's possible. the long-worms you talk about are dragons though. Feels far-fetched to say it's one and the same thing. I see no convincing evidence for that :P
Cool video man. I think it very well could be that these were-worms were supposed to be like some sort of nagas or draconic folks, if you think about it. Tolkien was a philologist, so if you think about the meaning of the word 'were' in this instance, which is 'man' and comes from the proto-indo-european root *wī-ro-, then these were-worms could have had human features. Also, 'worm' in the Middle Earth mythos like you said is another word for dragon or wyvern and such, not unlike in old stories and legends... So dragon-like men who lived in the desert far east of the world? It seem to me to be a better take on what Bilbo says than giant litteral worms or serpents (a choice of design that doesn't even reflect their name and its meaning).
Yes I read an article about this and it concludes that it's a false interpretation. We only know of the skin-changers. Seems even more far-fetched than the gigantic worms. Here's the article in case you want to read it: musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2014/12/what-are-were-worms-in-hobbit.html There were parts about the creatures I decided to cut out - this is one of the things, as the idea was too absurd imo haha
@@MacbethofGondor I was thinking more like lizard people. But yeah true ^^ the idea of a bunch of normal looking humans able to change into dragons and vice versa is kinda eccentric for Tolkien's universe.
Didn’t the first dragons have only legs instead of wings? So the hobbits could’ve added that to their folk-lore as a type of thing and called them wear-worms
New episode out for the Lore of Arda: th-cam.com/video/xvBry_tUp-k/w-d-xo.html
Let's beat the YT algorithm together!
I'd say they existed, but as you said... They may been dragons instead of worms. Propably cold drakes. Or drakes without wings.
But they also could be real worms. Tolkiens lore is so rich different species and other stuff, so why should it be unlikely to feature worm like creatures?
Also he didn't tell a lot about the east or the south and I think it is very possible these foreign lands have animals that western lands would give them monster like names.
Thank you for this video :)
How about featuring the giants of the mountains in the future?
I know of 2 iterations of them. The one of the Hobbit movies and the one in battle for middle earth 2 game. I prefer the second over the first because they fit more into the story of Tolkien and could be very like the ents, just maybe trolls influenced by the water of fangorn?
This might be fanfiction, but also plausible.
As it turns out, Arda is the homeworld of the sandworms of Dune.
Haha indeed
One thing I thought of when I saw this was that we do not know where the last 4 Dwarven clans were, one thing we do know is that 3 of the Dwarven rings Sauron got back and the others the Dragons held or were destroyed. Wereworms being Dragons adds more then them being literal worms.
True
These were used in the movie because of the split into three movies. As the battle had to be its own movie, they decided to plan everything out and show movements of armies in detail. (something which ended up looking silly, and was ultimately unnecessary because the battle in the book is more of an intense amorphous experience rather than Waterloo type tactical battle.)
Unhappy with orcs simply sneaking up onto the elves and men, they "needed" a way for an army to approach undetected.
Hence the tunneling worms.
Yeah I guess that 'makes sense' just dumb Hollywood thinking that everything needs to be a surprise-attack.
@@MacbethofGondorSpecially when thinking that, now that you have the worms in the battlefield and they're huge... Why not keep to use them to you know kill the elfs and dwarves? 😂
Fantastic lore video again! Using mod footage for lore videos where you can is a great idea. You could also if you haven’t already thought about it yourself, make videos in the future where you talk about certain battles that happened in the LOTR universe and show them in the mod! Keep it up :)
Yeah that's what I intend ;)
Mongolian Death Worms: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_death_worm
The original Hobbit drafts had "Gobi desert", not "last desert", Tolkien would very likely have been familiar with Roy Chapman Andrews' book, and the timing (1926) is almost exactly spot-on. John D Rateliff even mentions Andrews in his discussion of this passage in History of the Hobbit, but (oddly enough) fails to make the connection to Mongolian Death Worms.
The only thing missing is a statement from Tolkien confirming it, but otherwise I consider it 99.9999% likely.
I am a simple Rohirrim, i see a lore video, i click a like.
(And i don't think there was Were-Worms in Tolkins world. All those giant worms in deserts start to emerge eveywhere in pop culture since Frank Herberts Dune-Saga (which i like alot) was getting around, in which the Shai-Hulud played a central role.)
Kind of have always been fascinated with giant worm like creatures that move about under the ground. Those things in the hobbit movie reminded me of the first Tremors movie.
Dune might be an interesting Univers for you then!
@@maxpaspirgilis3967 Hmm i'll investigate.
@@KingZealotTactics Lol you seriously don’t know what Dune is? Fair enough there actually a character that becomes a worm.
@@justchilling704 I mean I know of Dune but I've never watched anything to do with it. A character turns into a worm lol? Not exactly what my interest is but it sounds interesting.
@@KingZealotTactics Yeah lol. I just gave it a chance a few days ago not bad.
This video is so well done, Macbeth! I think you are right from a lore Tolkien view. But, It would be funny if he did mean Giant Worms in the ground. In turn, does that mean that... Tolkien-inspired DUNE TOO!?!??!?! Haha, this is a half-joke of course. ;) Nice video Friend! (I Think there could be a chance they were real.) But Dragon Idea makes good sense to me too.
Haha Thank you! Yeah Tolkien created Dune too, he just used an alias 😆
@@MacbethofGondor HEHEHE!
I had an idea for the player's role in aiding Sauron. Perhaps giving Sauron the ring could reward the player with a new ring of power, that would essentially make you the 10th Nazgul (although still living). It could come with special stat bonuses, a horse, armor, weapons, and the like. Maybe that would be too far in terms of lore, but it would be the closest to the player becoming a "dark lord".
Hmm yeah doubt that would happen. Magic won’t be a thing in the mod either
@@MacbethofGondor Thanks for your response anyways! Great community you have here.
Subbed. Learned about you in DTG's last video. Love the content.
DTG sent me. I love lord of the rings, so you have gained a loyal subscriber.
Good take on the subject!
Great video
Thank you!
Frank Herbert be like: GIVE ME BACK MY WORMS!!!
If you’ve never played shadow of Mordor or shadow of war, they’re based solely on the books and disregard much of the movies aspects. They’re both extremely good games that I can’t recommend enough to someone who enjoys lord of the rings. You see the fall of minis trilieth into minas morgul, among other cool things. It’s rated 9/10 on most reviewers sites too, lastly I got the game for 7$ from a steam sale
Yeah their lore is so far off from accurate I can't stand it Helm Hammerhand as a nazgûl is true heresy, that can never be forgiven hahah
@@MacbethofGondor I totally agree, it is still a really cool lord of the rings game though! Even if the lore is really screwed. I’ll probably enjoy kingdoms of arda even more, really can’t wait for that trailer!
oh the Kong-worms... just when the nightmares had started decreasing...
Most likely are that Bilbo made up the wereworms alongside the Last desert just to seem tough. I imagine were-worms were intended to be some kind of shapeshifting dragons. What they are based on is most likely stories about shapeshifting-dragons from Norse myth and Scandinavian folklore. (For example the story of Fafnir or the fairytale of Prince Lindworm.) A less likely basis (according to me) are Asian dragons. I'm unsure if the Mongolian Death Worm were any basis for them, but they itknown of in the West since 1926 and it is suposed to live in a far-away desert...
Yeah pretty sure the Mongolian death worm could have been the source of inspiration. Not sure about the shapeshifting part. In reality this is likely one of those minor elements Tolkien added in The Hobbit, but never got around to explain/ flesh out in LOTR, Silmarillion or in any of his notes. Compared to all the other crazy creatures hobbits believe in, it seems reasonable to think it's just another make-belief.
Subscribed. Dare to Game sent me.
Weren't the Dwarfs infested with were-worms ,that Bilbo convinced the Trolls not to eat them ?? :D
Alright. I'll bite. Teach me about the Were-Worms. I'm not overly familiar with them. I had not remembered them from the books when i watched the Hobbit.
Also - could you make movie review esque videos where you talk about how the movies portrayed things accurately and how they botched other stuff?
Hmmm I think it would be a bit too time-consuming for me to do
Actually Tolkien's Were-Worms are 99% Long-Worm Dragons, as Worm was used as a world that he used for reptiles and dragons, So they are probably the long dragon species like giant snakes without legs (the same ones which destroyed the gate of Gondolin in the First version I believe and also the same ones which destroyed Tower of Turgon)
Yeah it's at least a bet, it surprised me other scholars didn't mention it - which to me just means it's not the same thing 🤔
@@MacbethofGondor you know Hobbit was written before Tolkien's concept to make his Universe as we know it now so he probably used many similar motives of this Tiny worldbuilding in both the Hobbit and his "mythological ideas" which are now in Tales in books suck as Silmarillion, B&L, FoG, CHoH. Similar example is considering Nameless Things Below the Misty Mountains, in Hobbit Tolkien mentioned some ancient creatures which lurk in the foul darkness in caves.
You know many details of Tolkien's worldbuilding is taken from Norse mythology so similar motives would appear throughout his diffrent writtings.
Any way going back to The Long-Worm serpents I bielive you can read about them in First versions of Fall of Gondolin, I Don't remember which exactly was that but surely there is smth about, so my assumption was that the Were-Worms were the Long-Worm Dragons or at least similar as it is probably the same motive which appeared in to diffrent writings
@@ellanenish5999 Well we never get to know if were-worms were indeed meant as dragons, but it's possible. the long-worms you talk about are dragons though. Feels far-fetched to say it's one and the same thing. I see no convincing evidence for that :P
Would these dragon's dig tunnels ?
Do you plan on releasing this mod when banner lord is out of early access? (March 2022)
There's no date for the mod release
There's still no official release date - same news as always. If that changes everyone will know.
nice video
Cool video man. I think it very well could be that these were-worms were supposed to be like some sort of nagas or draconic folks, if you think about it. Tolkien was a philologist, so if you think about the meaning of the word 'were' in this instance, which is 'man' and comes from the proto-indo-european root *wī-ro-, then these were-worms could have had human features. Also, 'worm' in the Middle Earth mythos like you said is another word for dragon or wyvern and such, not unlike in old stories and legends... So dragon-like men who lived in the desert far east of the world? It seem to me to be a better take on what Bilbo says than giant litteral worms or serpents (a choice of design that doesn't even reflect their name and its meaning).
Yes I read an article about this and it concludes that it's a false interpretation. We only know of the skin-changers. Seems even more far-fetched than the gigantic worms.
Here's the article in case you want to read it: musingsofatolkienist.blogspot.com/2014/12/what-are-were-worms-in-hobbit.html
There were parts about the creatures I decided to cut out - this is one of the things, as the idea was too absurd imo haha
@@MacbethofGondor I was thinking more like lizard people. But yeah true ^^ the idea of a bunch of normal looking humans able to change into dragons and vice versa is kinda eccentric for Tolkien's universe.
@@excelsiorcroissant Yeah I think so :D Sounds more like warhammer haha
Where can one follow the progress of the mod?
on the channel - but more closely on our discord. There's a link in my banner
@@MacbethofGondor Heh... Banner
So Were-worms are literally the nameless things
I figured they were people that could turn into dragons like werewolves are people that could turn into wolves
Didn’t the first dragons have only legs instead of wings? So the hobbits could’ve added that to their folk-lore as a type of thing and called them wear-worms
Of course they existed🤦♂️🤦♂️🙄 they were shown in the movies
Yet another reason for why the Hobbit movies were trash
Lots of bad things, but a few good things here and there