Premium vs Semi-Premium hand planes (not an in depth comparison)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ม.ค. 2017
- This video was an excuse for me to mess around with a really nice hand plane more so than to provide new information. My friend Wayne Brown stopped by to let me check out his new Lie Nielson #4 and considering I've had my WoodRiver #4 1/2 for about a year we figured it would be a good opportunity to put together a quick video. The results are nothing unexpected.
Follow Wayne on Instagram: / woodworking1
These videos are short project and everyday updates. If you would like to see actual woodworking videos check out my main channel.
Main Channel: / jayscustomcreations
My website: www.jayscustomcreations.com
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Woodriver #62 - amzn.to/22aF3F0
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Great comparison video but, if I only take one thing away from today, using your square as a plane stop... actual Eureka moment here!
Been fudging about with bench dogs and planestops and the answer was hanging on the side of my toolbox all along!
:)
That is a neat trick. What kind of square is that!? I have never seen a jumbo speed square.
I too had that eureka moment !
☝️ I agree
My family is from mid-coast Maine, and we pass the Lie-Nielson Toolworks on Rte. 1 about a dozen times every summer. My grandfather gave my father a different Lie-Nielson plane for his birthday every year for decades until he passed, and now my father has started doing the same for me. The attention to detail is unparalleled and I'm glad you could tell those little differences. Big fan and all the best!
Tyler Creighton been there....from Fairfield here.
You would quickly run out of planes, and most are kind of redundant anyway.
Wow your grandfather wasted a lot of cash buying the same expensive planes over and over.
@@JohnJones-it3us way to insult someone’s memory of a loved one. The LN look like awesome planes.
I just ordered the veritas low angle jack plane and this is the most excited I've been for a new tool in a long long time. My first good plane:)
Shop built just ordered the lie nielsen 102 block plane. pretty excited
Nice. Make a shooting board!! You won't regret it.
I have that plane. You are going to love it. I have their low angle smoothing, low angle jointer and low angle block planes. I love using each of these tools.
odd that one is so cheap compared to the others.
I just tried to order my first Veritas plane...ALL of their planes are out of stock...so I settled for a Wood River....
Thanks Jay, and tell Wayne thanks too for sharing that. Both of those are impressive tools.
That last clip was SO satisfying!
Wesley Aring: Oh, YES! Pure delight.
Plane porn...
@@almagill I was going to say, its physically satisfying.
I agree Jay. I play with a lot of planes just for the hell of it. I bought the lie neilson above all else, it’s beautiful. May be a ridiculous reason but it worked for me.
Perfect timing!!!! Thanks for posting this Jay. I just spent two weekends restoring three planes and making a shooting board. My restoration of the old planes, made me learn alot about the fit and finish of different makes and models and why I may want to spend a little more than $15 for a hand plane. When the budget allows, I am going to get a woodriver plane so I can have a really nice tool and not have to settle for minimum quality.
Thanks Jay! I've recently taken an interest in hand planes and really enjoyed the comparison between the two. Hope you have a great week!
Using that large plastic triangle as a store. Is freaking BRILLANT!!
"Jays Old-Timey Workshop". Love it. Hey if they forbid you from making dust, go ahead and make old time shavings.
As the proud owner of old Stanley, Miller's Falls, and Montgomery Ward (not trying to make anyone jealous, just stating for perspective) planes, I would personally describe these as "premium" and "ridiculously premium" planes.
And I would love to own them. :)
Cool comparison. Thanks for showing these!
Yeah that’s probably more accurate. The level of refinement we have available today is getting silly. And without perspective it can be easy to get lost splitting hairs.
How lucky are we that the “bad” plane is still producing wood tissue paper. It’s cheaper because it’s made in china and not produced by American labor.
The bad thing is that the people making it aren’t being treated very well, by western standards. If they were it would be just as expensive.
Interesting comparison, I enjoyed the viewpoints since I'm looking for a 4 1/2, thanks Jay!
I found this informative, it put the general differences between such planes in perspective. Thank you Jay for sharing :)
Nice look at those fine planes Jay, thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the video. Nothing to do with your content but I clicked on a video you did just after Christmas, and what a huge difference in your voice. I can't imagine how much better you must feel now that you can breathe. Thanks again for what you are giving us.
Funny you catch me every second of a video that told me exactly what I already know, I'm watching it again!
Thanks for the info Jay!
Jay, thanks for posting the video. You did a great comparison. The only other thing I would mention is that the Lie Nielsen planes are made in the U.S.A.. The WoodRiver planes are made in China I believe. The quality of the WoodRiver is good, but cost of labor makes all the difference. Lastly, a Lie Nielsen 4 1/2 in ductile iron is $325, which is only slightly better in price then the no 4 bronze, but it makes for a better price comparison.
And a 50 year-old Stanley was made in the US or England or even Australia.
I love that you're taking the time to have this discussion Jay, and like all on this subject, it will inevitably lead to nothing conclusive...through not fault of yours. The discussion is worth having nonetheless. Here's my take on this :
I've spent the last year getting into hand tools in general, and planes in particular. I think highly of the Wood River line, although I've not gone down that path. What I've seen from Rob Cosman's work would be enough to make me consider that product. In the last year, I had a WR 4 1/2 on back order for many weeks before I cancelled and bought an old Stanley Bailey 4 1/2 from eBay and used that (and a Miller Falls equivalent of a #3) to learn how to restore hand planes. I find both to perform well when flattened, tuned and sharpened.
To be honest, your demos on edge grain though don't really add anything to your discussion. I could get quality shavings from an old Bailey #5 that I had years ago just because I needed a plane in my power tool shop on occasion. The sole was not flat, but it still cut edge grain very well. Where it failed was when I attempted to do any really flattening of a board with it. I deemed it unsalvageable and that led me to my journey down Hand Plane Lane.
I have yet to find a plane that is 100% effective in all situations. I could get gossamer thin shavings from the 4 1/2 I restored, only to get tear out when encountering grain reversal in something like walnut or sapele. That opened my eyes to the "high angle frog" approach to gnarly grain. I found an old Primus with a 50 degree frog, tuned it up and found it to perform better than the Stanley....better, but not effective in ALL grain situations once again!
I'm attempting another plan of attack; one of my favorite tools is a Lie Nielsen #62, a bevel up, low angle jack plane. I've had it for about a year, and it's gone from general flattening before smoothing, to use in a shooting board (just simply the best!!!), to adding the toothed blade for scrub planing. I just purchased another standard blade (25 degree bevel) and have put a 55 degree secondary bevel on it. I have yet to try this out on gnarly grain (just did this earlier this week), but my hope is it performs well in place of the Primus. While that wooden body plane is a beautiful tool, it's a pain to sharpen and get back to that sweet spot I had it in prior to blade removal. It make the 3 minute task of sharpening to stay on top of the job into a 15 minute task, which means I don't keep it as sharp as I should on something as large as a table top.
Guessing that you have a micro bevel on your Wood River, what you showed us is that your 30 degree angled plane performs as well as the LN set at 25 degrees. A micro bevel might not have changed the outcome of your demonstration, but I wonder if it would have performed better in situations in which the WR experienced tear out, which seems to always be lurking in the project background. I long for a time when my palm sander collects dust from lack of use instead of heavy use in my projects. With the hours of research I've done on plane tuning and technique, I find that no one comes right out and say that sometimes, a board will not allow you to plane it to final surface. The closest I've come to that statement is "sometimes it's best to use a card scraper." No one comes right out and says that "this plane, or this technique or set up will solve all tear out issues." Sometimes you just have to sand, damn it! Unfortunately, sanding out tear out can be as time consuming and messy as sanding without planing, and I was one who'd progress from 60 though 400, and occasionally through 600 grit.
Good discussion Jay! I'll be interested in seeing what others have to say. Take care buddy and LGRW...except when they play those Hawks...or Canadiens...or Leafs, BUT AGAINST EVERYONE ELSE FOR SURE!!!!
I think the real takeaway is to remember what our real world standards actually are. It’s fun to play with perfection in the lab, but tools are used to make things. And you’re gonna make the same beautiful furniture regardless if you have a Woodriver polished to 16k or a LN with the same treatment. We can be free to choose what we like knowing that it doesn’t really make much difference.
The other reason the Lie-Nielsen is more is it is made in U.S.A. There is a reason that people get products made overseas and it has nothing to do with a superior product. Corporate greed. Not to mention by buying LN you are supporting your fellow citizens. Plus LN has incredible customer support. Good review Jay!
lateralus423 damn right!!!!!! i was going to post this same comment. LN is made in maine. 100% maine made from scratch with steal from Massachusetts i believe...not Chinese at all! the maple handles are maine maple.
lateralus423 Right on! my budget is suited for woodriver planes but I'd rather buy LNs strategically and help them keep manufacturing here and less of my money in the greedy corporate hands. if more people buy REAL American products we would all be making more money and they wouldn't be considered "expensive."
Exactly right laterlus. Americans have to start drawing a line on just how much of buying habits go the "Walmart" way of ever lower pricing. That's a sure recipe for building up economies other than our own. Woodworkers, especially should make the effort to "buy American" since that's just what the vast majority of their clients do when buying their woodcrafts. I've been a woodworker all my life (now retired) and everything out of my shop was sold to another American. It's only good common sense to support your own community.
I think if you adjust for inflation an actual Stanley bedrock when they were made in America (not Bailey) was similar in cost. You've got to remember when you're buying a Lie-Nielsen you're making an investment in not only a generational tool, but something you can make your living with till you die. I wouldn't expect it'd be cheap to buy something once your grandkids could use.
LN is pretty fucking greedy. Their markups for the "best" is insanely high.
You can buy an old stanley, for $5-30, and use it for another 100 years. The fact that you can use it forever doesn't justify the cost.
man that bronze planer looks so nice.
My old woodwork teacher would have given us supreme H for setting a plane face done on the work bench. We were taught to lay the plane on its side to prevent possible damage to a finely honed blade as it is protruding out the bottom.
Same here, except I was the old woodworking teacher. I taught to always lay a plane on it's side.
I think this is a bit of a myth, with no real sense-substance. The blade will be stressed infinitely more in the act of planing than it ever will sitting at rest on a wooden workbench. Also if the plane is on its side, there is more chance of the blade being damaged if accidentally struck by another object - another plane, hammer etc, and, there is greater risk of a hand or finger being sliced accidentally. Resting the plane sole down on a wooden surface seems astonishingly logical to me.
This young chap has a fine future in woodworking . he has some great ideas.
Maybe not new, but still always nice to hear your spin on it.
This video was an excuse for me to mess around with a really nice hand plane more so than to provide new information. My friend Wayne Brown stopped by to let me check out his new Lie Nielson #4 and considering I've had my WoodRiver #4 1/2 for about a year we figured it would be a good opportunity to put together a quick video. The results are nothing unexpected.
Follow Wayne on Instagram: instagram.com/woodworking1/
I think the face when you grab the lie-nielsen says it all
Fun video, What id like to know more about is that beautiful purple heart screw driver you had on the bench, pls?
My friend Jeff Ferguson made the screwdriver. It's really nice :)
That's really cool, Id really like to have one like that it bc it looks like an art piece but still very functional, especially, I'd bet, for taking apart those planes
#JayBates "This video was an excuse for me to mess around with a really nice hand plane..." and, get you out in the #Woodworking shop without all the dust. #KeepTheChipsFlying!
Good review!
I am more than happy with my WoodRiver #4. I flattened and sharpened the cutting iron on a 1000/6000grit Japanese water stone. More than enough for the typical use.
Thank for sharing. As of now (2023), the WoodRiver #4 1/2 plane is around US$250 and the Lie Nielsen is around $360, I'd definitely get the Lie Nielsen ones too.
Spend the extra money and support American manufacturing. Lie-Nielsen is a smaller American tool manufacturer that makes their tools with American made and crafted products from the New England area. Be an American. Support the American worker.
Bad Axe Toolworks is another A++ vendor. Best saws money can buy. Not cheap, but made with pride in LaCrosse Wi.
If they weren't so greedy, then I might do just that. But they want double what woodriver planes sell for. It's a ripoff.
I wasn't even talking about that. They want nearly double for the plain one. The bronze one is $350, iirc, which is far more than double. Also, the bronze alloy is a gimmick. If these old stanley's lasted a 100 years, then why would you need to bronze? Because it makes a better ornament? Yah, that's about it, isn't it? LN is for people with too much money.
You mean an old stanley #4? If you can find a good 1940s for a decent price, then sure. But I have to tell ya, the market value on the #4 in particular has skyrocketed in the last couple years, likely in large part due to Paul Seller's. I've seen good, but not great, looking #4s going for upwards of $150 on ebay.
The weight it adds isn't necessary. It's a decorative option for people that want a decoration more than a tool. Look up WD40 corrosion resistance. That shit is incredible.
And how much does LN take home in profit? That's the real question here. They're margins r asinine.
Don't act like you give 2 shits about the workers either... Over Half the usa can't afford a $1000 emergency. You don't even have universal health care or college. You don't give a flying fuck about anyone that isn't related to u, if that.
the car comparison was spot on Jay!
I own Clifton, Veritas, LN and Quangsheng (which is reportedly what Woodriver are marketed in the UK) and you are completely spot on here. The Chinese made planes really are outstanding, the weight of them is amazing!
Thanks for the feedback, Elliot. Much appreciated.
Five reasons I will buy the LN
1. Superior bronze material
2. Superior fit and finish
3. Inspiring tool and a A joy to use
4. Prefer to support US Manufacturing than Chinese
5. Superior resale value
Nobody on TH-cam that I have seen puts the Wood River in the same class as LN
Thanks for a great video!
Chinese sale 50$ is acceptable, 170$ no way. Canadian Veritas plane is the same price about the wood river but with much better quality
not to be disrespectful to your friend but..
1) 30 min or so of my time for honing is worth the money saved
2) I enjoy setting up a plane the way I use it...I would probably also need to tweak the lie nielson...to work the way I want.
3) see no. 1 again.
Any plane, including Lie-Nielsen, will benefit from additional honing right out of the box.
There are several reasons for this but mainly the degree of sharpness, and the lack of a micro bevel, and camber.
The factory edge is ok. It'll get you decent shavings out of the box. It also won't last super long, won't have a micro bevel and won't have any camber on it, features that are essential on a #4.
My opinion -the smoothers should be the sharpest in your arsenal.
Take care
Agreed. Don’t know why people always tout “ready out of the box”. Do they expect to never have to adjust/tune their planes? Do they buy a new one every month??
For the price of a LN you can have two Wood River planes set up for different cuts to save a lot of time on adjusting for different types of cuts. Or just another plane type.
Fit and finish doesn’t cut the wood. I’ll go with the wood river.
Great comparo, subbed
I really like my 4 1/2 Stanley. It’s just a great size. Best I can guess, it’s from the 1940s
I love my 4½ type 11. 😍
Nothing wrong with classic Stanley planes they do a great job but if you want a new plane that can just be bought and it works then premium is the only way to go today.
I would just love to see Stanley make good quality planes.
Jay, the next time you are hanging out with Wayne, can we PLEASE get some footage of his adorable little dog? He is just the cutest.
jay, great tutorial. Thanks.. how often do you use spokeshave? And on what operations are you using them for?
Pretty happy with my wood river planes. Not a big hand plane user so they do right by me. Love the LN stuff but way beyond my budget.
Thanks Jay.
Cool trick with the speed square
Awesome comparison, Jay! You helped prove there is nothing wrong with the Woodriver for the price. Enjoyed the video.
Jason Rausch Agreed! I got a WoodRiver 5 1/2 and while there might not be much difference between the Lie-Neilson and WoodRiver there is a huge difference between the WoodRiver and other planes manufactured today, it's a pleasure to use. Would like to buy a Lie-Neilson something one day though.
Well given the results Rob Cosman gets with his Woodriver I think he’s conclusively proved they are not lacking in ability once you tune them up.
They also aren’t much cheaper than LN anymore depending on the model you want.
I see that we both received the same watch for christmas. I really like mine, and my sister was so excited to give me something made of wood. How do you like yours?
I very much appreaciate this comparison video (as I do all your videos).
If you purchase them where I live (Europe), the prices will be:
WoodRiver 4 1/2: $238
Lie-Nielsen 4 1/2: $476
Veritas 4 1/2: $400
Quangsheng 4 1/2: $202 (same factory that produces WoodRiver, but no WoodRiver improvements).
Rider 4 1/2: $192 (sides are not square to sole!)
Thus Lie Nielsen and Veritas are both out of the question.
I've considered importing a WoodRiver, but due to the import hazzle, I decided not to bother.
Instead I'm going for the good ol' wooden planes; I usually get used planes for $6 .. $10.
-So I'm able to purchase a lot of wood instead of just one plane. ;)
...as anyone with any sense would. I get it that Americans want to buy American products but the cost mark ups are barely justified there, much less anywhere else. There’s nothing you can do with these planes that can’t be done with cheaper alternatives. That Lie Nielsen is $655 in Australia, which is ridiculous. I’m using a refurbished Stanley, which I did myself, using tips from one of Jay’s videos.
@@thethirdman225 I agree; the most important thing is still to get the job done.
-Of course it's real nice when the job gets easier, and still wooden planes have the advantages of 'sliding easier'. It's probably impossible to discuss what's best, because we would all have opinions.
That said, if one enjoy using the tool, things can't be much better. ;)
Oh, one more thing to consider: My brother knows a wood-worker who make his own planes; he never ever use a 'handheld router' (untless it's a router plane).
He's got a point, because the final quality of the product is slightly better.
Even if running a motorized router slowly, it still 'chops' the wood away in small pieces, so there are traces from the cutter.
In many cases that does not matter much, but if you pour water on two almost identical pieces and one is made using a plane, the other using a motorized router, then the water is repelled slightly better on the planed piece.
@@68HC060 Use soap or wax to lubricate the sole of the plane.
@@thethirdman225 Yes, absolutely. I use wax if it's not a wooden plane. =)
68HC060 As far as which plane produced the better finish, that’s a matter of tuning. See Rob Cosman’s 32 second sharpening video. He uses a Wood River. Then see what Paul Sellers says about how good a finish you actually need. He doesn’t sharpen more than about 800 grit. I don’t bother above 1,000 and I use a strop. As for enjoyment, it’s a matter of preference. I get plenty of enjoyment out of using a plane I refurbished myself and I don’t really care about producing cling film thin, near transparent plane shavings or the noise it makes. That’s a kind of stunt that has little in the way of practical value. I’m more interested in other things.
I see your Paul Sellers tomato can oiler back there!
Yup! Works great.
I prefer buying quality tools because I appreciate them every time I pick them up. That said, I don't necessarily go for the absolute top of the line though. I might change my mind if I ever handled a Lie Nielson plane, but my go-to is Veritas. Still a premium brand, but a little more affordable. It sure beats the pants off the plane-shaped metal objects that the big box stores sell!
I have been playing with the used market for a while now and I am restoring alot of different brands of hand planes. Even though I am having a great time finding and restoring them I am not up on the lingo like type and have no real research data to fall back on for hand planes. Do you have any recommendations for a hand plane encyclopedia of sorts that is available?
Also try to resell the Wood River plane. The LN will get almost the same as you paid. The old LN can get you more than you paid.
Jay, another great video! Thanks for doing such a high quality production!
Just a little planing tip, when you flip a board over to plane the other side, the grain direction usually switches. So flipping it end for end will give you the best results...as long as the grain direction is correct in the first place!
This is also good to apply to a powered planer, you'll get less tearout to fix with your new smooth plane.
Hope you are feeling better Jay and on the mend. Is that a wooden watch I can spot.....I have a wooden watch and love it
Yes. My wife got it for me for Christmas. It's this one: www.mauikool.com/products/zebra-wood
I have no affiliation with them.
Nice watch! Where'd you get it?
hey jay really like the comparison video. kinda off topic but where did you get your custom workbench cover/pad?
My wife got it for me for Christmas. It's this one: www.mauikool.com/products/zebra-wood
I have no affiliation with them.
lol nice watch, but I'm referring to your workbench pad, with your logo on it.
It'd be cool to see you making a comparison between Lie-Nielsen and Veritas since both planes are a bit closer in pricing.
I have several of each and and like both brands, however one thing for consideration is the warranty you get with the LN plane. If you drop and damage the LN they are probably going to repair it for you. If you damage the Wood river you are probably buying a new one.
Good point.
Yes I see your point about LN service, simular to Snapon, they charge you up front for the second tool in casa you need a replacement in the future....
@@davidjanuszewski5020 no, they don't. They charge you for one tool made with premium materials and to the tightest tolerances. Then they help you out if you have an issue with it.
@@carlson.douglas.wthey charge you for employing Americans with expensive American cost of living. Not saying this is bad. But the made in US thing doesn’t necessarily mean high quality. And made in china doesn’t necessarily mean low quality.
The market isn’t fair because of the cost of living and quality of life of the employees. And that’s the main thing affecting price.
Hi Jay,Just wanna say I enjoy your videos; thanks for sharing such valuable information; I've learned alot from watching them! Even built a pipe clamp vise :-)Question: For someone like me on a super minimal budget, as regards buying a budget plane; Can you recommend a decent budget plane?
A hand plane? Any cheap hand plane will work once you tune it up. Use different grits of sand paper on a known flat surface like a single piece of granite floor tile from Lowes or Home Depot. Search Paul Sellers on TH-cam for setting up a hand plane.
X Y Refurbish a No. 5 Stanley. See Jay’s video on how to do it.
The chip breaker on my Woodriver wasn't flat and wood particles were getting stuck between the back of the blade and chip breaker. Unfortunately you really can't flatten them yourself because there isn't much material in those newer style chip breakers. With a premium plane your paying for exact tolerances which make all the difference in the world.
In what way was it not flat? And how far out was it? You absolutely can and should flatten your chip breaker edge where it has that negative bevel on it. Just to get the very 1/32 of the edge completely flat.
Watch Rob cosmans video about setting up a new plane. You flatten the chip breaker, iron, and lever cap so they all fit perfectly together.
Some of these might be quite far out and need a lot of work. Some might be high in the middle and they are not serviceable. But you can return them and get a new one if this is the case.
But yeah you can and should be flattening the leading edge of your chip breaker on a Woodriver plane for sure. If it’s so far gone that it can’t be done then return it and try again.
So I would say those tolerances save you work but they don’t make all the difference in the world because you can do the tune up yourself or return the item and get one that is serviceable. Now if the returns are a costly hassle then that’s worth considering too.
I caught a pretty bad break on my Woodriver. The lever cap was way out and took quite a bit of work to flatten it. and the blade was “twisted.” So I had to polish like a quarter inch on one ends to get 3/32 on the other. Not a problem, just s lot of effort.
The chip breaker was proud on the ends but flattened out with minimal work on a diamond stone.
Now it’s as good as those tight tolerances I would have paid $200 more for. And it’s polished up to 16k which I would have had to do on the LN too.
The variability on the Woodriver going to be a lot higher though. So if you’re insisting on not doing a proper set up then maybe look elsewhere.
Nice watch bud. My wifey got me one too.
I have both LN and Woodriver planes. The fit and finish on the Lie is nicer. Also there is less back lash on the Lie. Backlash is the slop found in the adjustment wheel before the blade engages the wood. That's really about it. Both planes come with a blade that can be sharpened in less than 30 seconds to take a shaving well under 1/1000th of an inch. There is a minor longer tune up process with the Wood River, which may take me ten minutes total. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a Lie. They are, in my experience, THE finest North American plane made today. They are also the most beautiful. I own both. But in performance, the Wood River planes will easily hold their own with a Lie.
No queation with the planes but so satisfying to watch when the clamping and workbench dont move a bit...need to start saving for one....
if you can move the frog from the back without taking off the iron, then it is a bedrock plane I think that is what you were looking for...
for a smoothing plane I would definitely go for the premium plane, just less of a chance that the sole is not flat enough, and if you want to do smoothing the sole really has to be very very flat (I know the price difference is quite big, in relative terms, but a plane will last longer than you live (if you don't abuse it) so those $200 more do they really matter? not for me, for a smoothing plane I like to know that I have a rock solid product).
for a plane for rough work, like a no. 5 go for the cheaper (I have a german "Dick" plane that looks very similar to the woodriver and is about the same price, and I'm very happy with it and I can even use it for smoothing (since I don't have a smooting plane yet I'm planing on getting the no3 lie nielson) the blade could hold the edge a bit longer though so I guess I will replace the blade with something a bit tougher.
If you have the money, I can see the enjoyment that could be brought by having such luxurious, well-crafted tools. Mostly though, I think the tool that does the job without too much fiddling and frustration to make it work, and makes financial sense, is the one to choose. That Wood River seems like a decent compromise.
I'm on more of a Buck Bros. budget, myself. :|
I could never buy a plane or any tool that is made in a tyrannical country that uses labour camps and commits mass murder.
If there are alternatives made in other countries such as the US then you have to consider that.
One good plane could last your whole life time and be handed down.
@@bighands69
I live in a country that has a long history of labor camps and has dabbled in mass murder, as well. 🤷🏻♂️
@@jeffmansfield914
So that country you live in right now has concentration camps and it is tolerated.
@@bighands69 It has in the past, and a convincing argument can be made that it does now.
@@jeffmansfield914go back far enough and we’re all guilty. German engineering is globally prized and the holocaust wasn’t that long ago.
That being said Woodriver isn’t that much cheaper than the North American brands and there’s less of a chance of getting a plane that needs hours worth of work to set up.
Especially is you’re only buying a few planes your whole life. Now if you want the whole set that’s different.
I'm seeing some people's comments that seem to assume the bronze is the definitive issue of cost/quality difference with the L-N. Bronze is only an OPTION, for the smaller bench planes they make. All Lie-Nielsen bench planes are also available in Ductile Iron (high-strength, non-shattering), in the same sizes. The bronze is a little heavier, and a little more expensive. The larger planes in the line (all the old standard Stanley size #'s), only come in Iron, as the weight/cost of the bronze would be a disadvantage in those sizes.
The point to note relative to THIS video, is that the Iron versions of L-N. planes certainly are done to the same manufacturing and finish standards as the equivalent bronze counterparts. And of course their cost reflects that. It's the fact that the Wood River brand is all manufactured in China, that's a much bigger factor in price, even apart from lesser fit/finish standards.
Oh, I guess I could mention the caveat about the L-N. being the same dimensionally & design-wise as the old Stanley "Bedrock" models (with some improved engineering like thicker blades and cap-irons), as opposed to Lee Valley/Veritas planes (the other top quality option), which while sized similarly, are their own unique design patterns... I was dismayed to find Lie Nielsen recently discontinued the # 5-1/4 size in the bench plane line. I had very much hoped to buy one of those someday when I could afford it, but now I'll have to settle for a leftover old regular "Bailey" pattern Stanley if I want that size/style. Much disappoint.
very nice
Jay, have you tried the Veritas #4 smoothing plane?
I have not.
I have the veritas #4. And a few LN's. They're radically different designs, with veritas offering a Norris style adjuster that allows you to do lateral blade adjustment and blade projection from one control, vs. 2 on the LN. And that's not necessarily better, just different. Anyway, just giving my .02 here. I really like my veritas smoother, but I LOVE my Lie Nielsen's. I'll continue to support both companies. They are both a sheer joy to work with.
You should have shown the Nielson quality out of the box for a equal comparison.
I am fortunate to have both the LN 4 in bronze and the LN 4 1/2 in iron. Both of these planes will have an improved cutting performance with a little honing of the blade out of the box. You may have seen a big difference between the LN and the WR if the LN blade had been honed to 8 or 10k on water stones.
As an aside I bought a WR knuckle jointed block plane that is a lot like a short version of the old Stanley 65 and although it is not as refined as the LN and Veritas block planes I have, it cuts just as well and can in fact take a finer shaving than any of the more expensive planes.
Yeah. That’s why it’s weird that people make a fuss about things being ready to use out of the box. What are gonna do when it gets dull in a week? Setting up a WR or LN isn’t that much work for a one time event. You need to sharpen it regularly so who cares if it’s sharp out of the box?
i really like the car analogy
with the money you save on the Wood River plane you could buy enough wood to do several projects
The very first hand tool I ever owned was a hand plane, a gift from my aunt. I still have it. It is a Stanley Victor jack plane. Not a competitor for either of these fine tools, and after 67 years of use and, I confess, neglect, not a great looker. But it’s set up and sharp, and works fine. I also have two #4s , two block planes, and a Record rabbet plane. I rarely use any of them; so much easier to run an edge over my jointer, andfaces through my planer. 😉
The plane is one tool I can't get adjusted to make shavings! I have a couple of old Stanleys that I can't get to work. I know I'm doing something wrong, but can't figure it out!
Rob, Here are a few things to try.
You need a good sharp iron in the plane. With some of my Stanleys this has been just a matter of sharpening and honing the blade. There are many you-tube videos on this process. Some Stanley blades are too cheap to hold a good edge. It all depends on the age and quality of the blade (post WWII planes are famously troubled this way). For a few of my Stanleys I have bought a Hock blade and that has made all the difference.
Make sure the chipbreaker's edge is about a 16th of an inch from the iron's edge.
Then on setting up the plane start the iron retracted slightly from the mouth and advance it until it just protrudes enough to start catching the wood. Then follow the steps Jay shows in this video (middle then each side adjusting as you go).
Last make sure that the board's grain is coming up in the direction that you are planing. If not you will get some skipping and maybe some tear out.
There are other tuning steps that you can do but this list seems to work for me 9 out of 10 times.
I hope this helps.
Give me a Lee Valley Veritas plane any day of the week. I have 4 of them and love them. I have several Stanley style planes with Lee Valley blades and chip breakers in them. They work better than before but I still prefer the Lee Valley low angle planes.
I have a Qiangsheng number 5. It is the most comfortable plane I have ever used. The downside is it’s very heavy. I use it for one off furniture making. If I’m doing joinery I use my Stanley’s or my home made wooden planes with Veritas blades and mechanisms. The Stanley adjusters I find better but the Veritas blades are superb. I should have bought a very few Veritas or similar rather than several cheaper planes. I think the Stanley’s are amazing designs but the details are completed in the more expensive ones, just as you say. However, it would have been very boring just to have three planes, a block, a three and a five. I regularly use from a choice of twelve. Stanley’s 2,3,4,41/2,5 , 6, block,filister, rebate, even a bendy compass,bull nose,jointer- is that a 7? Of course I frequently use saws and sanders instead!
So,as to your comparison, I would buy the Wood River and a decent sharpener like the Worksharp. A good edge on a good blade is what matters. The rest just holds it in place. Tapping to adjust isn’t that difficult. How about buying an older Stanley and upgrading the blade and making a comfy tote out of your favourite wood?
I buy old planes at flea markets and antiques stores. Then restore them using Paul Seller's technique. For less than $100 I have a #3, 4, 5, 6, and a 7. Look around good used ones are not hard to find and during the process of restoration you really learn the planes and the changes they underwent from the 1800 till now.
A small tip: point your index finger down the plane. It should give you more control. A specially with your Woodriver. You can adjust the blade depth on the fly. Take care.
I like your watch! Is that a real wood band?
Yes. My wife got it for me for Christmas. It's this one: www.mauikool.com/products/zebra-wood
I have no affiliation with them.
The Quangsheng planes (made in China, marketed by Woodcraft in the U.S. as Woodriver and elsewhere under their own name) are really pretty nice pieces, arguably better made than the vintage Stanleys I own and use. Lie-Nielsen products, as you noticed, are beautifully machined and use high quality materials, but the main factor in the price difference is the cost of U.S. labor, more than 10x Chinese wages. That explains why they are a boutique product. Similar situation to the Canadian designed and made Veritas planes, also beautifully constructed and highly effective and similarly priced. Nevertheless, we'd probably all go for the L-Ns if we could :)
Yeah. People should really hammer on the US made versus Chinese made aspect of the tools. Rather than clamber on about how the LN is mana from heaven and perfect out of the box.
I think the big deal with wood river is that they’ve got Cosman’s support. And he’s up there doing the lords work with veterans so that really helps the Woodriver image. Without that it would just be a cheaper Chinese alternative to the expensive North American brands. (Not cheaper in quality or results but simply price.)
The performance of all these several hundred dollar brands is comparable. Keeping in mind that LN is made in US, Veritas in Canada, and Woodriver in China , can help put things in perspective.
The #4 is a Lie-Nielsen plane I do not have either, but I have four others, so far.
Jay, does the bronze slide across the wood more easily? LN reminds me of Harley Davidson, the business side controls the amount of production and thus the price.. I contacted LN about when they were going to have a sale, I was told that LN doesn't have sales and that If I wanted one of their planes I would have to pay full price... Marketing is an art unto itself..
The friction difference, if any, isn't noticeable.
If you want something that feels amazing, use one of the wood bodied planes.
Nice planes! Seems the expensive ones work just as well as the Mexican made Stanleys. Now, I'm NOT knocking expensive planes, especially when one works fine out of the box. And pretty is nice, too. However, 30 minutes seems to be what it takes to tune a plane. And no matter what the cost a plane will need adjusting/sharpening/tuning more than once in its life. At $20/hour, that is $10 worth of time. Is the the $300 plane really that much better or is it just a matter of it's more expensive?
i think that Mr. Wayne Brown should start up his own TH-cam channel. I would watch the crap outta that.
I've passed on the message ;)
Jay Bates 2 Awesome 😁
I hoped he can show if the finishing had some shine even.
I could hear a difference straight away, the lie nielson sounding hella rough compared the woodriver. Though when you went to the face sides, it sounded different again.
He probably had the Woodriver blade polished in to the five figure range. The LN was right out of the box. LN still needs to be set up and polished and micro beveled. It has tight tolerances but it’s not tuned up.
That WR looks like a 4 1/2. Regardless many guys won't buy because not MUSA. My experience is like yours. It much diff between WR and LN other than price and time to flatten/hone iron.
Jay is that a Zebra Wood watch from tree hut?
My wife got it for me for Christmas. It's this one: www.mauikool.com/products/zebra-wood
I have no affiliation with them.
hope you are feeling healthy and healing
My parents just gave me my grandfathers plane from the 40s-50s. I need to restore/learn about hand planes in general.
Search for Paul Sellers here on TH-cam. You won't regret it.
Nathan Vancil buy a cheap Stanley plane and learn to tune/sharpen the blade before you go anywhere near an antique, I restored a 1920's Stanley and took far too much off the blade while learning to sharpen it.
Alan Fisher - Good idea!
+Alan Fisher great advice from Alan! I did exactly that and made all my mistakes when it didn't matter , I'm sure your grandfather would agree!!!... Good luck and have fun😃
Nathan Vancil Have a look at "The Plane Collector" channel. Best resource on restoring planes there is.
Hi friend, how can I get a sticker from you?
I'm a tool junkie. Don't always go for the most expensive. I go for quality workmanship. I own 3 veritas low angle, a Lie-Neilsen 4-1/2 smoother 50 degree frog, 5 or 6 vintage bedrocks, ECE and Kanna wood planes, and several wood wedge krentovs that I made myself. Enjoy working with all of them. I have one Woodriver plane which is perfectly acceptable. I just prefer spending my money in the USA, Canada, Japan, GB, and Germany. Just my opinion. Not everyone wants to spend more money. You can get planes of good quality if you don't mind China.
Cool ending...
Curious, please try to swap-out the frogs, Woodriver does not offer different angles, but, LN does...
6:50 goddamn do I love that sound
Hi Jay,
Good comparison of two fine planes. I was interested because I recently purchased a Wood River 6 1/2 plane and wanted to hear your comments. I would agree with almost all you said, except for your choice of the Lie-Nelson. As a thrifty Scot I would stick with the Wood River :) After the minor fettling applied as per Rob Cosman's scheme I bought the 6 1/2 on his recommendation, I'm very pleased.
Is that a JORD watch you're wearing?
I believe thats a Bewell. I have the same one in Zebrawood.
Sorry Jay you're not fooling us. If your eyes lit up anymore holding that Lie-Neilson plane you wouldn't need workshop lights. Man you are so in love with that thing like it was a newborn baby. Who'd blame you though, I would be too.
:( both planes are awesome... :D i'm using a 30 Euro Wooden and it's no comparison
The LN keep there money if you sale them far more than the others
I have Lie Nielsen planes and Veritas ,Record and Stanley . They all perform extremely well . I recently bought a #4 and #5 1/2 Wood River . The WR perform EXACTLY the same as the LN .at 1/3 of the cost . LN are lovely planes but overpriced . Veritas are more affordable and perform equally . I can take a cheap $30 Stanley 6o years old and tune it to work the same as ANY LN . Planes are mostly about skill in tuning . I am surprised WR is not more prominent in the woodworkers community . They have hidden design features far in advance of LN .Having said ALL that ,,Veritas is the most affordable reliable premium plane and their PMV11 blade CANNOT be beaten by anybody.
They are pretty prominent in the novice community because of Rob cosman.
the end of the day, as you say, they both perform the same. It's basically just a body that's different. the LN will not be as good as the WR with a dull blade and vice versa ... so actually you pay more then double to not spend 20 minutes setting it up in the beginning and for the brand :-)
Lets not forget people a couple of knocks and the LN is OUT of adjustment . You REALLY NEED to know about planes to set ANY of them up.
I just did a video like this comparing an old Stanley, the Harbor Freight no 4 and a Veritas no 4. Pretty fun to figure out isn't it. You can check out my video here...th-cam.com/video/7_g6zxgfDso/w-d-xo.html
@8'03" "a little bit nicer" hmmmmm for TWICE the price it should be a WHOLE lot nicer. Like, maybe TWICE nicer!