Brad Colbow Thank you for the great review btw. I'm frustrated with my SP4 purchase. There really is no perfect tablet on the market for graphic artists. Wacoms hardware is insufficient and unreliable. Apples IPad Pro doesn't have a full operating system. Surface Pros stylus is not well calibrated, even if the new pen being offered is an improvement. The take away is that everyone of these capable drawing tablets on the market come with a compromise in one form or another. And from a business stand point I can see why. Microsoft for example is more than capable of releasing a device for artists with a stylus that is flawless and has 100% accurate precision and calibration just like Apple has, but they won't, because they can sell more devices and accessories if they keep releasing products that are a minor improvement over the last model. Because if they did release the perfect product it would be a one time buy, and getting consumers to upgrade to the next model would be a hard sell. They know what their doing, and their releasing these flawed devices on purpose and selling us slow incremented products over time. Thats their business model. Unfortunately for us their able to get away with it, because no one has yet released the perfect device, because their competitors are adopting the same business model. The only way I see Microsoft releasing the perfect stylus and tablet is if Apple released a iMac that uses the Apple pencil. That would force their hand, because consumers would have no reason to look back at the Surface Pro.
Huh, I should try that. I was using Bandicam. Another thing you could try is obs studio, it's designed for live streaming but can record locally as well.
I've been waiting for a good jitter test review and comparison video between the new and old Surface Pen with the new and old Surface Pros. Thanks for diving into this!
Seems to me that iPad Pro and Wacom have yet less jitter... That's the very key thing... Plus, reflective screen in Surface, grrr. That besides me am not really interested anymore in anything that forces me to illustrate in a screen smaller than 22".
Nice review, Brad! Couple of things: Sketchable supports tilt now, you just need to download a couple of tilt-enabled brushes from the Silicon Benders site. Looking at your SP3 lines, I'm convinced you have been living with a broken device. I've never, ever gotten strokes that rough on the SP3.
Blanc Noir I checked every model with a high shutter speed camera and could not detect PWM like I could with the Pro 4. Notebookcheck confirmed the absence of PWM on the core M, but detected it on the i5 (at a ridiculously high and therefore unnoticeable Hz). I'm not sure if I trust their result because they've made mistakes before (like detecting the PWM on the power supply instead of the screen). Acer Switch 5 is PWM-free, according to their tests, as is the 13" HP Spectre x360 2017 with 4k screen.
The new pen on the Surface Pro makes ALL the difference for light sketchers. The Surface Pro 4 and last gen pen was extremely frustrating because it would take 2 or more seconds for the pen to actually "activate". The new Surface Pro's initial activation force completely resolves this and is a pleasure to draw on.
watching these videos are like watching porn. all you can do is watch someone enjoying such beautiful creations and drool all over your mouth. but deep down you know you cant afford a shit. *try not to cry then cry a lot* great video though.
I think the emphasis placed on the jitter when drawing slow lines is scaring people away, when in reality you're never going to be drawing that slow to experience them in the first place
Auditioned the surface pro head to head against the ipad pro this week. I found the Surface pen experience better. The cushioned tip felt great to draw and write with. The ipad is great, but more like drawing on a single sheet of paper over a hard desk. Thanls Brad--great review!
This is a great review, and it made the samsung book 12 more attractive to me as the s pen doesnt seem to suffer from the jitter issue. Also, loved watching your workflow mate!
Great review Brad, very usefull for me!! I apreciate that you brign us the illustrator point of view, with visual examples (not only technical features) Thank you very much. Adolfo
I love your reviews but I wish you or someone like you did a indepth test of 3d apps on this or other tablets, particularly 3d modelling, rendering (if even possible), sculpting limits, polygon/ model size limits (can you squeeze a complex multi million polygon model into zbrush or Blender and not have it go to a crawl). Its a vital thing to know for someone like me before I drop the needed cash on a high end spec. Your reviews however have made me consider a Surface over a Wacom studio though (just based on price).
what's the size of your canvas (usually) and what are your DPI settings? if these were made public it may be easier for other digital artist to make a choice between the cheaper versus expensive ends. having an in-depth review of the pen and how well it works is nice, but if you work in 100 + layers on a canvas of 8k by 8k on 300 DPI you know the lowest probably isn't going to cut it, and it's going to affect the lag of the pen as well
Never thought, the pen could make a diffetrence, when it comes to jitter. Regarding that, could you also compare the new Surface Pro Pen to the new "WACOM Bamboo Ink" pen? This pen works on N-trig devices and is supposed to have an even lower IAF than the new Surface Pen (like 5g instead of 9g).
I have an iPad Pro and I'm probably not getting a Surface at least within the next 5 years, but I watched it all because your reviews are simply amazing.
There's still quite a bit of jitter, unfortunately. Jitter was the main reason I went with Wacom and an iPad for my drawing tools. Neither of those have any jitter at all. Of course, an iPad won't replace the Surface (unless you're fine with the limitations), but Wacom tablets or the Cintiq do. I'm glad they're improving the pen, but I'm surprised they haven't been able to fix it yet, considering they've made so many products for it, including the hella expensive Surface Studio.
If this information is of use for anyone: My 2017 model arrived today and the hinge is MUCH stiffer than my on 2015 model. This might be a somewhat biased statement as I used my older Surface a lot, thus the hinge might have become worn out a bit. My 2017 model now does support my hand perfectly, it doesn’t even bend down at all. And once again: Thank you very much for your review! Many kind regards from Germany! (I still have to wait an entire MONTH for the new pen as Microsoft seems to have forgotten about Europe ... Humpf)
i've been wondering how compatible the new Surface pen is with the SurfacePro 4, this video has answered a lot of my questions. Thanks for making this video! Please do a SurfacePro 4 test with the 2017 pen when the system update comes out. I'm really curious if it would make sense to buy this new pen for the older tablet.. It would be really nice to figure out wether if it's worth upgrading to the Surface Pro 2017 when you only want better sensitivity and tilt.
I'm honestly all for a battery life claim with the brightness turned all the way down and just video playback. It will never come close to your actual real world usage, but at least it's always consistent. I know my own workflow enough to know that 13.5 hours claimed equals about 8-9 hours with my usage. But having a really basic test that all manufacturers use means it's a lot easier to compare devices.
Nice review! I like your videos. Have you had a chance to test out the new iPad Pro's with the Apple pencil yet? I have the original 2015 one which I'm very happy with, but I'm going to be gifting one to my mum (designer), I'm wondering if the new ones are worth it. But I can only afford the old 12.9 or the new 10.5 so I'm wondering if the drawing improvements are significant.
Hey Brad. Do you think the jitter might be less pronounced on the Surface book once the tilt comes to it? I'm really torn between buying a Surfacebook performance base and a Surface Pro (I can buy the Surfacebook for the price of the new surface pro where I live). I'm kind of bothered by the Surface Pro's lack of lappability (typing in a car or a bus must be a nightmare with it) but I really like the improved Pen experience.
Brad, LOVE this review. I run a small design agency north of boston and I've been on the fence about getting an ipad pro vs surface pro. Can I get away with using IOS apps like affinity and procreate to get around the lack of no full-on adobe suite software? I feel like it might be a pain to deal with a new OS, when all my other equipment is mac based. My primary goal is to be able to make vector hand sketched illustrations on the fly. Right now I'm illustrating on paper, and using some of the adobe mobile apps to scan and vectorize it. Are you still full on surface pro 6 months later, or have you gone back to your ipad? I'm torn...
My situation is strange since I'm always getting new pen displays to test out. I havn't used the Surface Pro since I reviewed it and I had to send it back. The iPad apps are a little lacking, I really love Procreate because it's so much fun to draw in, but if you are used to Pro tools it can be a tough transition. One thing the iPad Pro has going for it is an app called Astropad, it basically turns your iPad into a Cintiq, it's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good. That might help you fill in the gaps if you go with an iPad.
Initial activation "force" not "rate". Only rate we should be concerned about is digitizer rate, rate means change per unit time, digitizer rate is number of points the digitizer can caputre from the stroke you made on the screen, in one second. Do you also own a Cintiq pro 13 or 16? I have cracked my surface screen and the replacement is expensive, more than half the cost of surface pro 4 when i bought it 2 years back. I am planning to buy a Cintiq pro 13 because it's OS agnostic and doesn't have computer parts that will slow down in a year. I like things that are made to last. I am not an artist but I handwrite a lot, and might get into digital calligraphy, ipad pro is good but it's pencil nib might feel a bit slippery for extended periods and will feel a bit slower with time like any other tabletPC. Samsung tabS3 is perfect but runs android, and will also feel slower in a year.
I will be doing a follow up based on some of the questions here. But I need to send this back in a few weeks so I won't be doing a really long term follow up.
Nice review as usual Brad. Looks like a good device if you don't have a Wintablet already or maybe if you need to upgrade from the SP3 but dangit not even the pen is catching me. It looks great but 100 bucks and the pressure range is only better on the newest SP but not the SP4 I got? Oh well!
Awesome review! I recently got iPad Pro 10.5 and my thoughts are the same with yours. iPad Pro definitely is a companion device. There's been many time I wished I didn't have to to import/export. At same time, comparing the price between iPad Pro & Surface, I would like 16GB model in i5 version for fan less setup
Thank you for this video, ahah you saved me at least 1000$ and a lot of head ache! I had Huion/Ugee table with wavy line problems and had to sell those off. I was about to buy a Surface 4 before seeing this video, and seeing as the problem is persistent with them I'm glad I held off on getting one for now. Thanks again!
Great review brad as always! Question: I have sp4 i7 16gb. Would it be silly to swap out to the new sp i5 8gb? I can do it within the sp4's return policy and it would be a wash cost wise. The new I7 16gb is way too expensive for me. Would it be a noticeable performance hit or would the new i5 processor make up for it? Thoughts?
just bought a surface pro 4 i5 8gb, really hoping that the tilt feature comes to the 4! other than that, I see no need to pay more for the new surface pro. I was looking forward to this review!
Hei Brad, if you don't mind me asking, how does the new Pen compare to the Apple Pencil? In the past you said that" the Apple Pencil soundly beats the Surface Pro 4's pen", is the improvement you mentioned here enough to sway you over the Surface Pen side? Thankss 👍
Hm, I wonder if Adobe will have to accommodate for the Microsoft version of tilt. Should be interesting. Thanks for the review! I am still pretty on the fence/ not sold... Does your calibration mess up as you approach the sides/corners of the screen? The test models at my Microsoft store had that issue even more heavily than older models.
having all three surfacepro sufacebook and ipadpro I have to sadly say the MS stuff is still ok for note taking mainly. the apple pencil still defeats the surface pencil and the drawing apps for mobile devices also use gestures dramatically better. i really like krita but then again no hiDPI icons for surface products. the new apple ipadpro even further perfects drawing with 0 lag. only advantage one could say the surface has is that preview of the cursor but to be honest with the pencil drawing where you click there is no need for it. since affinity photo is out for iOS the surface products are back on the rack collecting dust.
I thought changing the hinge stand degree was soooo stupid. I mean, it's a tablet, if I want to get as flat as possible, I can simply not use the hinge and have it flat. It was much better before.
hai brad, i really enjoyed your review. ALSO thank god someone finally reviewed the i5 4gb one and not the 8gb, everyone just reviews either the i7 or the i5 8gb. I was also wondering how your experience is on the 4gb with large canvases, like maybe 4000x4000? What size of canvas did you actually use in your vids, i really hope that the 4gb can handle slightly bigger canvas sizes since i can only afford the i5 4g :c. BTW you said in your tutorial that you would keep it as desktop replacement if you could use it to make vids, does this mean that the i5 4g cant handle programs like vegas or after effect? Could you please clear it up because I would like to buy the new surface pro but I also need it to handle light video editing and decent canvas sizes. Sorry for my bad English and the long comment
I did notice some brush slowdown on larger files. But for the most part it held up pretty well. I think the canvas size I was using was 4000 x 3200 which is pretty big. I didn't check video editing. My main editing computer has an i7 and 16gb so I'm spoiled. The Surface can handle light video editing but processing won't be very fast.
Brad Colbow thanks for answering my ridiculously long comment, omg thats a pretty big canvas size + you were also recording. I dont think that i will be to much affected by the lag, at least i hope. 8gb would still be better so I might wait a few months to see if the 8gb model drops. Goddamit Microsoft with your perfect surface but awful pricing T-T
Hi! Fellow illustrator here. I'm a fan! watching you draw is entertaining and I get a few tips too that improves my own work. I am making the jump to a screen tablet and have committed to buying my own device. Because of availability, I can only get my hands on an Asus Transformer 3 Pro, (T304ua). I would have wanted the Surface but,,, price and availability. I will get my device at the end of October this year and by that time I cannot return it anymore. Can you help me out, how does it work in an artist's perspective? Just want to know if you can enjoy using it or not. A quick note on your thoughts about the machine is enough. Thanks!
okay, so about the battery life claims of Microsoft. They're battery claims are not based on "turning the screen brightness way down and doing a super simple task" but is based off of continuous video playback on standard screen brightness. I know that is not how you, or really most people use the device, and the app they use to run the tests is actually very battery efficient which is why they get large numbers, but this is the metric they have used for battery life for the last several generations of surfaces, so you can easily compare them. Most reviewers that I have heard from get closer to the specified battery life than you do, because they use lighter apps, and since they know how long the battery life lasted on older models, it tells you how much better this new one is relative to others. essentially, they made their battery life test a standard which is only useful when comparing to itself, but it is still useful for that. many companies have no standard and it is useless to compare, and yes, they inflate the numbers often. but it is nearly impossible to quote the "real world battery life" because someone like you using illustration software will use a lot more battery than someone else using internet browser and notepad, or someone else using Solid Works and Mathematica constantly. Its not realistic to have a universal realistic battery life number. I appreciate that they at least have a standard which they have told everyone what it is and can be compared to itself easily.
I need advice! I can't decide whether I should get the surface pro 2017 or iPad pro (12.9 inch)! I'm mainly concerned with doing character art, making comics, and occasionally (maybe) modelling characters and doing 2d animations! I do have a powerful laptop with a GTX 1080, so I have a workstation! And I do know about astropad ( I'm in a game design field of study) any advice would be appreciated!! ( I've found both device for really good prices on swappa - so now I just need hell to decide !!)
just picked up a refurbished old surface pro 2 no pen problems there (wacom tech) :), no tilt though but that does not really matter to me.... the performance difference between pro 2 and pro 4 is extremely negligible. It all comes down to very similar Ultra Low Voltage style processors, and Integrated GPU's... I love the Surface pro2 I picked up for 260.00 its an i5 with 8 gig ram and 256 ssd. I did notice a performance difference between my pro 2 and the exact same spec'd pro 3 I purchased and gave a shot for 1200 (at the time of purchase).
I know that you made a video comparing the iPad Pro and the Surface Pro 4. But now with the improved Surface stylus, how does it feel compared to the Apple Pencil? Does the Apple Pencil still have the edge for drawing, or did that change?
Which programs do you use? I want to purchase a Surface Pro 7, but I only use Adobe Illustrator. Not much information is known about Surface Pro 7 and Illustrator, though when I Google which one is most compatible with Illustrator CC, they said Surface Pro 7 is an excellent choice.
Hi Brad! Thanks for the awesome review. I just picked up this Surface as my first Surface ever, really excited to get into the world of digital art. Could you recommend some Windows drawing programs you like that are already designed/updated to work with the new Surface pen/Surface Pro 2017? Thanks in advance!
If you're just starting out there are two program I would recommend. The first is Clip Studio. It's has a lot of features and might seem overwhelming at first but as you learn it there is a lot to love there. The second is called Sketchable. It's pretty new and it's built for Windows tablets and is pretty streamlined and super easy to use.
Thanks for the review, very interesting! Only comment regarding battery life, they should explain on the website the kind of test they do. Normally they refer to light browsing and office tasks… I would say that drawing drains more power hence battery life can't be the declared reference.
Great demo on the Surface Pro which I also got one recently. I would like to know which drawing software / App you would recommend with the Surface Pro. The Sketchable and Clip EX so far seems to work well. I also have the Photoshop but the panel icons are too small for my eyes. Cheers and thanks
Can you add a link for the exact pen you used? I'm looking around and I've found a few that look similar to yours and are surface pens. Did you use the one with the eraser end? I want to make sure I get the right one. Especially because if I get a surface pro I'm only going to use it for digital drawing.
Apparently according to a Microsoft store employee u can use a sp as a cintiq using the windows 10 connect app which lets you use surface as a second monitor wirelessly. I'm just wondering if it's true.
I've heard of people connecting their Surface Pros and using them as tablets, but it's not designed to do that and I'm not sure how good of an experience i is.
thank you, the review seems very useful to me and make sure how good the new Surface Pro after doubt to buy that and take a long to look for another review of new Surface Pro, iPad Pro, Surface Book, and MacBook Pro for the case of illustrating and mobility. Then your video convince me to buy new Surface Pro. thank you!!
What would any of you recommend to use for shortcuts when using the surface with programs like photoshop? Do you keep the keyboard nearby, or are programs like artist pad better? I'm worried about having my workflow slowed down when using the surface in tablet mode. Thanks!
Yeah, that is one thing that slows me down. There are on screen shortcut apps that help with that like Tablet Pro www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/tablet-pro/9nblggh1rqvc
Brad im a surface pro 4 owner with a broken pen in need of a replacement and not a big fan of tilt either, would you recommend buying the wacom pen for art or should I spend 30$ more bucks and buy the new s-pen when it comes out
Between drawing using astropad on an ipad pro on a more powerful computer, or using the new surface pro, what do you think is the best experience overall? I'm very conflicted between an iPad Pro + astropad or the new surface pro. I plan on using it on 5k files on photoshop, so I'm worried the pro may not have enough juice without going for the pricey options, whereas the ipad pro with astropad won't be doing any of the heavy lifting.
Could you comment on the "parralax" effect of the pen? What annoyed me with the old sp4 pen was that the tip of the pen did not always hit where the computer thought it did. So the line would appear offset from the tip of the pen. This was especially noticeable when using the sp4 in portrait mode. Have they improved on this at all? Thanks.
Brad please test the new pen on Surface studio and check the jitter!!!!! I also heard the studio has all improvement from new surface that why I am asking.
About the kickstand I saw surfaceproartist reported similar, so you resting your hand on the screen curious. I use to remember that on some apps I got some unwanted pen strokes on screen by resting the hand maybe this is gone now.
It's uniform because it's a tracking error that exists as you move through the digitizer grid, so the error repeats at each division of that grid. The wavelength of that error actually gives you an idea of the resolution of the digitizer.
Atomic Walrus I realise what it is, just hard to believe it's that pronounced. If you look closely to his hand it seems like he's doing a micro movement wobble, subconsciously maybe. I could be wrong though 😅
Every time I try it out someone brings this up. That's why I used the ruler too. But it's not just me, like Atomic Walrus mentioned it's a well known issue with these types of pens.
Brad Colbow sorry, it just seemed more noticeable here than on other reviews. One thing to remove some doubt would be to draw the line while pushing against the ruler from under rather than on the top. Just a suggestion. Otherwise great review though 👍
As an artist this is the kind of review that ive been waiting for, thank you brad!
At last, a real review. Everyone else just bounces their hands around the device and talks about the tech specs.
true that. lol
FIRST!
Brad Colbow beat me to it
that's a first!
I did that just for you ;)
Brad Colbow Thank you for the great review btw. I'm frustrated with my SP4 purchase. There really is no perfect tablet on the market for graphic artists. Wacoms hardware is insufficient and unreliable. Apples IPad Pro doesn't have a full operating system. Surface Pros stylus is not well calibrated, even if the new pen being offered is an improvement.
The take away is that everyone of these capable drawing tablets on the market come with a compromise in one form or another.
And from a business stand point I can see why. Microsoft for example is more than capable of releasing a device for artists with a stylus that is flawless and has 100% accurate precision and calibration just like Apple has, but they won't, because they can sell more devices and accessories if they keep releasing products that are a minor improvement over the last model.
Because if they did release the perfect product it would be a one time buy, and getting consumers to upgrade to the next model would be a hard sell.
They know what their doing, and their releasing these flawed devices on purpose and selling us slow incremented products over time. Thats their business model.
Unfortunately for us their able to get away with it, because no one has yet released the perfect device, because their competitors are adopting the same business model.
The only way I see Microsoft releasing the perfect stylus and tablet is if Apple released a iMac that uses the Apple pencil. That would force their hand, because consumers would have no reason to look back at the Surface Pro.
Brad Colbow Ahhhhhhh the for gigs of ram hurts
As a non-artist who was just looking for another review, it was super cool to watch how you work in photoshop and illustrator! Great review!!
Thanks for reviewing a model that isn't an i7 model :)
shanesthedude OMG THATS WHAT I SAID I FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO BUY THE i7 CUZ PEOPLE HAS THAT ONE
Hows the core m version tho?
Exactly the video I was expecting for you, thanks so much!!!!
What screen recording software are you using for the surface pro?
Steve Harpster you could use the windows game bar through Xbox to record your screen.
Huh, I should try that. I was using Bandicam. Another thing you could try is obs studio, it's designed for live streaming but can record locally as well.
I've been waiting for a good jitter test review and comparison video between the new and old Surface Pen with the new and old Surface Pros. Thanks for diving into this!
Seems to me that iPad Pro and Wacom have yet less jitter... That's the very key thing... Plus, reflective screen in Surface, grrr.
That besides me am not really interested anymore in anything that forces me to illustrate in a screen smaller than 22".
Yay finally Brad's review on this!
This is two weeks in a row that I've tried to swat the fly off your avatar.
Nice review, Brad! Couple of things: Sketchable supports tilt now, you just need to download a couple of tilt-enabled brushes from the Silicon Benders site. Looking at your SP3 lines, I'm convinced you have been living with a broken device. I've never, ever gotten strokes that rough on the SP3.
Unlike its predecessors, the new Surface Pro screen is also PWM-free, meaning no eyestrain ... for those who care.
Blanc Noir I checked every model with a high shutter speed camera and could not detect PWM like I could with the Pro 4. Notebookcheck confirmed the absence of PWM on the core M, but detected it on the i5 (at a ridiculously high and therefore unnoticeable Hz). I'm not sure if I trust their result because they've made mistakes before (like detecting the PWM on the power supply instead of the screen). Acer Switch 5 is PWM-free, according to their tests, as is the 13" HP Spectre x360 2017 with 4k screen.
I'm trying to decide between the Mobilestudio Pro and the New Surface Pro. Which pen experience did you prefer?
Arjuna Coles same
Brad what's that on your head? Is it.........no it can't be. Never mind I must be seeing things
It's hair! I've been able to grow it this whole time!
I still cannot believe it
The new pen on the Surface Pro makes ALL the difference for light sketchers. The Surface Pro 4 and last gen pen was extremely frustrating because it would take 2 or more seconds for the pen to actually "activate". The new Surface Pro's initial activation force completely resolves this and is a pleasure to draw on.
Your editing is getting TIIIGGGHT!
watching these videos are like watching porn. all you can do is watch someone enjoying such beautiful creations and drool all over your mouth. but deep down you know you cant afford a shit.
*try not to cry then cry a lot*
great video though.
I think the emphasis placed on the jitter when drawing slow lines is scaring people away, when in reality you're never going to be drawing that slow to experience them in the first place
Auditioned the surface pro head to head against the ipad pro this week. I found the Surface pen experience better. The cushioned tip felt great to draw and write with. The ipad is great, but more like drawing on a single sheet of paper over a hard desk. Thanls Brad--great review!
Thanks for your reviews for microsoft and apple products, I really enjoy them.
oh shit brad's beard is back
This is a great review, and it made the samsung book 12 more attractive to me as the s pen doesnt seem to suffer from the jitter issue. Also, loved watching your workflow mate!
Link?
Thank you so much Brad for this review. Finally a real artists opinion on the new pen. Im definitely gonna pick up a new surface pro now :)
Great review Brad, very usefull for me!!
I apreciate that you brign us the illustrator point of view, with visual examples (not only technical features)
Thank you very much.
Adolfo
I love your reviews but I wish you or someone like you did a indepth test of 3d apps on this or other tablets, particularly 3d modelling, rendering (if even possible), sculpting limits, polygon/ model size limits (can you squeeze a complex multi million polygon model into zbrush or Blender and not have it go to a crawl). Its a vital thing to know for someone like me before I drop the needed cash on a high end spec. Your reviews however have made me consider a Surface over a Wacom studio though (just based on price).
what's the size of your canvas (usually) and what are your DPI settings?
if these were made public it may be easier for other digital artist to make a choice between the cheaper versus expensive ends.
having an in-depth review of the pen and how well it works is nice,
but if you work in 100 + layers on a canvas of 8k by 8k on 300 DPI you know the lowest probably isn't going to cut it, and it's going to affect the lag of the pen as well
Never thought, the pen could make a diffetrence, when it comes to jitter.
Regarding that, could you also compare the new Surface Pro Pen to the new "WACOM Bamboo Ink" pen?
This pen works on N-trig devices and is supposed to have an even lower IAF than the new Surface Pen (like 5g instead of 9g).
Salvatore Endboss
I have an iPad Pro and I'm probably not getting a Surface at least within the next 5 years, but I watched it all because your reviews are simply amazing.
There's still quite a bit of jitter, unfortunately. Jitter was the main reason I went with Wacom and an iPad for my drawing tools. Neither of those have any jitter at all. Of course, an iPad won't replace the Surface (unless you're fine with the limitations), but Wacom tablets or the Cintiq do. I'm glad they're improving the pen, but I'm surprised they haven't been able to fix it yet, considering they've made so many products for it, including the hella expensive Surface Studio.
If this information is of use for anyone: My 2017 model arrived today and the hinge is MUCH stiffer than my on 2015 model. This might be a somewhat biased statement as I used my older Surface a lot, thus the hinge might have become worn out a bit. My 2017 model now does support my hand perfectly, it doesn’t even bend down at all.
And once again: Thank you very much for your review!
Many kind regards from Germany!
(I still have to wait an entire MONTH for the new pen as Microsoft seems to have forgotten about Europe ... Humpf)
i've been wondering how compatible the new Surface pen is with the SurfacePro 4, this video has answered a lot of my questions. Thanks for making this video! Please do a SurfacePro 4 test with the 2017 pen when the system update comes out. I'm really curious if it would make sense to buy this new pen for the older tablet..
It would be really nice to figure out wether if it's worth upgrading to the Surface Pro 2017 when you only want better sensitivity and tilt.
Loved this review and the comments very balanced and felt like everyone understood where everyone was coming from
How's the pen pressure compared to the mobile studio pro?
MaybeItsMark I believe the pen pressure is around 4000 while the mobile studio pro is up in the 8000, but it’s hard to tell
Thanks for the pen comparison! yay!
I'm honestly all for a battery life claim with the brightness turned all the way down and just video playback. It will never come close to your actual real world usage, but at least it's always consistent. I know my own workflow enough to know that 13.5 hours claimed equals about 8-9 hours with my usage. But having a really basic test that all manufacturers use means it's a lot easier to compare devices.
Omg that drawing at 7.30. What tool were you using it looked so cool. How did it just adapt the rough drafts shape. I cant wrap my head around it!
I really hope you purchase and review the Surface Book 2! I'm *strongly* considering getting it and I have a deep respect for your opinion.
How does this compete with the wacom mobile studio pro?
Aha! I had a feeling lowest angle might be too low, you confirmed it!
Nice review! I like your videos. Have you had a chance to test out the new iPad Pro's with the Apple pencil yet? I have the original 2015 one which I'm very happy with, but I'm going to be gifting one to my mum (designer), I'm wondering if the new ones are worth it. But I can only afford the old 12.9 or the new 10.5 so I'm wondering if the drawing improvements are significant.
Great review! Thanks for your thoroughness.
And i could see that u r a terrific artist...
Hey Brad. Do you think the jitter might be less pronounced on the Surface book once the tilt comes to it?
I'm really torn between buying a Surfacebook performance base and a Surface Pro (I can buy the Surfacebook for the price of the new surface pro where I live).
I'm kind of bothered by the Surface Pro's lack of lappability (typing in a car or a bus must be a nightmare with it) but I really like the improved Pen experience.
Thank you very much for the review. Much more helpful than most other reviews :)
Brad, LOVE this review. I run a small design agency north of boston and I've been on the fence about getting an ipad pro vs surface pro. Can I get away with using IOS apps like affinity and procreate to get around the lack of no full-on adobe suite software? I feel like it might be a pain to deal with a new OS, when all my other equipment is mac based. My primary goal is to be able to make vector hand sketched illustrations on the fly. Right now I'm illustrating on paper, and using some of the adobe mobile apps to scan and vectorize it. Are you still full on surface pro 6 months later, or have you gone back to your ipad? I'm torn...
My situation is strange since I'm always getting new pen displays to test out. I havn't used the Surface Pro since I reviewed it and I had to send it back. The iPad apps are a little lacking, I really love Procreate because it's so much fun to draw in, but if you are used to Pro tools it can be a tough transition. One thing the iPad Pro has going for it is an app called Astropad, it basically turns your iPad into a Cintiq, it's not perfect, but it's pretty darn good. That might help you fill in the gaps if you go with an iPad.
Almost all batteries tests that are quoted by manufacturers consist in showing a video at a certain luminosity level until there is no more battery.
Initial activation "force" not "rate". Only rate we should be concerned about is digitizer rate, rate means change per unit time, digitizer rate is number of points the digitizer can caputre from the stroke you made on the screen, in one second.
Do you also own a Cintiq pro 13 or 16? I have cracked my surface screen and the replacement is expensive, more than half the cost of surface pro 4 when i bought it 2 years back. I am planning to buy a Cintiq pro 13 because it's OS agnostic and doesn't have computer parts that will slow down in a year. I like things that are made to last. I am not an artist but I handwrite a lot, and might get into digital calligraphy, ipad pro is good but it's pencil nib might feel a bit slippery for extended periods and will feel a bit slower with time like any other tabletPC. Samsung tabS3 is perfect but runs android, and will also feel slower in a year.
Awesome review! Been waiting for a full on artist take on the new one. Will you do a short-term/long-term review?
I will be doing a follow up based on some of the questions here. But I need to send this back in a few weeks so I won't be doing a really long term follow up.
excellent review. many thanks. you tested exactly what I wanted to know
Nice review as usual Brad.
Looks like a good device if you don't have a Wintablet already or maybe if you need to upgrade from the SP3 but dangit not even the pen is catching me. It looks great but 100 bucks and the pressure range is only better on the newest SP but not the SP4 I got? Oh well!
I use a wacom tablet and seeing that jitter is CRAZY drawing slow on a pen tablet vs. a screen like that seems like such a big switch
Awesome review! I recently got iPad Pro 10.5 and my thoughts are the same with yours. iPad Pro definitely is a companion device. There's been many time I wished I didn't have to to import/export. At same time, comparing the price between iPad Pro & Surface, I would like 16GB model in i5 version for fan less setup
Thank you for this video, ahah you saved me at least 1000$ and a lot of head ache! I had Huion/Ugee table with wavy line problems and had to sell those off. I was about to buy a Surface 4 before seeing this video, and seeing as the problem is persistent with them I'm glad I held off on getting one for now. Thanks again!
Great review, Brad! A+
Great review brad as always! Question: I have sp4 i7 16gb. Would it be silly to swap out to the new sp i5 8gb? I can do it within the sp4's return policy and it would be a wash cost wise. The new I7 16gb is way too expensive for me. Would it be a noticeable performance hit or would the new i5 processor make up for it? Thoughts?
Hi, Brad. Good review.
I'm wondering why did you purchase the i5 4GB RAM instead of 8GB.
If you have a good point, I'll buy the 4GB too.. :)
I have an ipad pro 12.9 but i also have my good old trusty cintiq 13 hd so buying a surface pro for me seems overkill. Good review, though.
just bought a surface pro 4 i5 8gb, really hoping that the tilt feature comes to the 4! other than that, I see no need to pay more for the new surface pro. I was looking forward to this review!
Hope to see u review Eve V Tablet as well.
As I know, it's also can support the new surface pen right?
It can, it's using the same n-trig technology.
Hei Brad, if you don't mind me asking, how does the new Pen compare to the Apple Pencil? In the past you said that" the Apple Pencil soundly beats the Surface Pro 4's pen", is the improvement you mentioned here enough to sway you over the Surface Pen side? Thankss 👍
Hm, I wonder if Adobe will have to accommodate for the Microsoft version of tilt. Should be interesting. Thanks for the review! I am still pretty on the fence/ not sold... Does your calibration mess up as you approach the sides/corners of the screen? The test models at my Microsoft store had that issue even more heavily than older models.
having all three surfacepro sufacebook and ipadpro I have to sadly say the MS stuff is still ok for note taking mainly.
the apple pencil still defeats the surface pencil and the drawing apps for mobile devices also use gestures dramatically better.
i really like krita but then again no hiDPI icons for surface products.
the new apple ipadpro even further perfects drawing with 0 lag.
only advantage one could say the surface has is that preview of the cursor but to be honest with the pencil drawing where you click there is no need for it.
since affinity photo is out for iOS the surface products are back on the rack collecting dust.
I thought changing the hinge stand degree was soooo stupid. I mean, it's a tablet, if I want to get as flat as possible, I can simply not use the hinge and have it flat. It was much better before.
hai brad, i really enjoyed your review. ALSO thank god someone finally reviewed the i5 4gb one and not the 8gb, everyone just reviews either the i7 or the i5 8gb. I was also wondering how your experience is on the 4gb with large canvases, like maybe 4000x4000? What size of canvas did you actually use in your vids, i really hope that the 4gb can handle slightly bigger canvas sizes since i can only afford the i5 4g :c. BTW you said in your tutorial that you would keep it as desktop replacement if you could use it to make vids, does this mean that the i5 4g cant handle programs like vegas or after effect? Could you please clear it up because I would like to buy the new surface pro but I also need it to handle light video editing and decent canvas sizes. Sorry for my bad English and the long comment
I did notice some brush slowdown on larger files. But for the most part it held up pretty well. I think the canvas size I was using was 4000 x 3200 which is pretty big. I didn't check video editing. My main editing computer has an i7 and 16gb so I'm spoiled. The Surface can handle light video editing but processing won't be very fast.
Brad Colbow thanks for answering my ridiculously long comment, omg thats a pretty big canvas size + you were also recording. I dont think that i will be to much affected by the lag, at least i hope. 8gb would still be better so I might wait a few months to see if the 8gb model drops. Goddamit Microsoft with your perfect surface but awful pricing T-T
Hi! Fellow illustrator here. I'm a fan! watching you draw is entertaining and I get a few tips too that improves my own work. I am making the jump to a screen tablet and have committed to buying my own device. Because of availability, I can only get my hands on an Asus Transformer 3 Pro, (T304ua). I would have wanted the Surface but,,, price and availability. I will get my device at the end of October this year and by that time I cannot return it anymore. Can you help me out, how does it work in an artist's perspective? Just want to know if you can enjoy using it or not. A quick note on your thoughts about the machine is enough. Thanks!
Gah! So beautiful... Thanks, I've been waiting for your take on the new Surface Pro! :D
Now to just be able to afford it...
okay, so about the battery life claims of Microsoft. They're battery claims are not based on "turning the screen brightness way down and doing a super simple task" but is based off of continuous video playback on standard screen brightness. I know that is not how you, or really most people use the device, and the app they use to run the tests is actually very battery efficient which is why they get large numbers, but this is the metric they have used for battery life for the last several generations of surfaces, so you can easily compare them. Most reviewers that I have heard from get closer to the specified battery life than you do, because they use lighter apps, and since they know how long the battery life lasted on older models, it tells you how much better this new one is relative to others.
essentially, they made their battery life test a standard which is only useful when comparing to itself, but it is still useful for that. many companies have no standard and it is useless to compare, and yes, they inflate the numbers often. but it is nearly impossible to quote the "real world battery life" because someone like you using illustration software will use a lot more battery than someone else using internet browser and notepad, or someone else using Solid Works and Mathematica constantly. Its not realistic to have a universal realistic battery life number. I appreciate that they at least have a standard which they have told everyone what it is and can be compared to itself easily.
I now preface my reviews with Brad Colbow no one else seems to do artist reviews and draw on the tablets
Great review Brad..
I need advice! I can't decide whether I should get the surface pro 2017 or iPad pro (12.9 inch)! I'm mainly concerned with doing character art, making comics, and occasionally (maybe) modelling characters and doing 2d animations! I do have a powerful laptop with a GTX 1080, so I have a workstation! And I do know about astropad ( I'm in a game design field of study) any advice would be appreciated!! ( I've found both device for really good prices on swappa - so now I just need hell to decide !!)
just picked up a refurbished old surface pro 2 no pen problems there (wacom tech) :), no tilt though but that does not really matter to me.... the performance difference between pro 2 and pro 4 is extremely negligible. It all comes down to very similar Ultra Low Voltage style processors, and Integrated GPU's... I love the Surface pro2 I picked up for 260.00 its an i5 with 8 gig ram and 256 ssd. I did notice a performance difference between my pro 2 and the exact same spec'd pro 3 I purchased and gave a shot for 1200 (at the time of purchase).
I know that you made a video comparing the iPad Pro and the Surface Pro 4. But now with the improved Surface stylus, how does it feel compared to the Apple Pencil? Does the Apple Pencil still have the edge for drawing, or did that change?
Which programs do you use? I want to purchase a Surface Pro 7, but I only use Adobe Illustrator. Not much information is known about Surface Pro 7 and Illustrator, though when I Google which one is most compatible with Illustrator CC, they said Surface Pro 7 is an excellent choice.
Hi Brad! Thanks for the awesome review. I just picked up this Surface as my first Surface ever, really excited to get into the world of digital art. Could you recommend some Windows drawing programs you like that are already designed/updated to work with the new Surface pen/Surface Pro 2017? Thanks in advance!
If you're just starting out there are two program I would recommend. The first is Clip Studio. It's has a lot of features and might seem overwhelming at first but as you learn it there is a lot to love there. The second is called Sketchable. It's pretty new and it's built for Windows tablets and is pretty streamlined and super easy to use.
Thanks for the review, very interesting!
Only comment regarding battery life, they should explain on the website the kind of test they do. Normally they refer to light browsing and office tasks… I would say that drawing drains more power hence battery life can't be the declared reference.
Great demo on the Surface Pro which I also got one recently. I would like to know which drawing software / App you would recommend with the Surface Pro. The Sketchable and Clip EX so far seems to work well. I also have the Photoshop but the panel icons are too small for my eyes. Cheers and thanks
Goddang, now I want to commit crime to get a Surface Pro. Should just constraint on getting me a drawing display...
Can you add a link for the exact pen you used? I'm looking around and I've found a few that look similar to yours and are surface pens. Did you use the one with the eraser end? I want to make sure I get the right one. Especially because if I get a surface pro I'm only going to use it for digital drawing.
The pressure sensitivity seems better than the Apple Pencil. I have a 10.5" pro and the pencil and i don't like the pressure sensitivity at all.
Apparently according to a Microsoft store employee u can use a sp as a cintiq using the windows 10 connect app which lets you use surface as a second monitor wirelessly. I'm just wondering if it's true.
can you connect this to a pc to use as a tablet?
I've heard of people connecting their Surface Pros and using them as tablets, but it's not designed to do that and I'm not sure how good of an experience i is.
Thanx dude.. U were extremely helpful...
thank you, the review seems very useful to me and make sure how good the new Surface Pro after doubt to buy that and take a long to look for another review of new Surface Pro, iPad Pro, Surface Book, and MacBook Pro for the case of illustrating and mobility. Then your video convince me to buy new Surface Pro. thank you!!
What would any of you recommend to use for shortcuts when using the surface with programs like photoshop? Do you keep the keyboard nearby, or are programs like artist pad better? I'm worried about having my workflow slowed down when using the surface in tablet mode. Thanks!
Yeah, that is one thing that slows me down. There are on screen shortcut apps that help with that like Tablet Pro www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/p/tablet-pro/9nblggh1rqvc
Brad Colbow I had a look at tablet pro, i think it's the same thing as artist pad. i will look more into that, thanks!
Brad im a surface pro 4 owner with a broken pen in need of a replacement and not a big fan of tilt either, would you recommend buying the wacom pen for art or should I spend 30$ more bucks and buy the new s-pen when it comes out
Between drawing using astropad on an ipad pro on a more powerful computer, or using the new surface pro, what do you think is the best experience overall? I'm very conflicted between an iPad Pro + astropad or the new surface pro. I plan on using it on 5k files on photoshop, so I'm worried the pro may not have enough juice without going for the pricey options, whereas the ipad pro with astropad won't be doing any of the heavy lifting.
Could you comment on the "parralax" effect of the pen? What annoyed me with the old sp4 pen was that the tip of the pen did not always hit where the computer thought it did. So the line would appear offset from the tip of the pen. This was especially noticeable when using the sp4 in portrait mode.
Have they improved on this at all? Thanks.
You called the set square a T square, closer than just 'triangle' 😂👏🏼
Brad please test the new pen on Surface studio and check the jitter!!!!!
I also heard the studio has all improvement from new surface that why I am asking.
Funny because as an illustrator i had to edit my pens in clip studio to give it a jitter so it doesnt look too clean and digital.
About the kickstand I saw surfaceproartist reported similar, so you resting your hand on the screen curious. I use to remember that on some apps I got some unwanted pen strokes on screen by resting the hand maybe this is gone now.
thank you Brad!
can we somehow use this as second monitor ?
Would you say the amount of money spent to buy a Microsoft surface pro is worth it for a artist or future artist
Hey Brad, is there any improvement in the parallax department compared to the surface pro 4 pen ?
Is the uniform wave supposed to be the jitter? If so, hard to find it believable. Otherwise great review. Btw, does the new pen still need a battery?
It's uniform because it's a tracking error that exists as you move through the digitizer grid, so the error repeats at each division of that grid. The wavelength of that error actually gives you an idea of the resolution of the digitizer.
Atomic Walrus I realise what it is, just hard to believe it's that pronounced. If you look closely to his hand it seems like he's doing a micro movement wobble, subconsciously maybe. I could be wrong though 😅
Atomic Walrus If it's just the digitizer grid then shouldn't the jitter level be the same regardless of which pen he draws with? On the 2017 model.
Every time I try it out someone brings this up. That's why I used the ruler too. But it's not just me, like Atomic Walrus mentioned it's a well known issue with these types of pens.
Brad Colbow sorry, it just seemed more noticeable here than on other reviews. One thing to remove some doubt would be to draw the line while pushing against the ruler from under rather than on the top. Just a suggestion. Otherwise great review though 👍
omg the jitter is ridiculous, didnt know it was like that
thankyou for reviewing this!!!
What program do you use to screen record your art? I'm about to get my own surface pro, and I want to make art videos o:
Surface, such a great device to draw beautiful spirals (when trying to draw diagonal lines, that is. Lovely wobbliness! }-( ).
Would be nice to see a test using the new pen on the Surface Pro 4. Would it be a better experience than with your pro 3?