Episode 38: Perkins Engineering Twin Throttle Holden Engine on the Dyno
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 พ.ย. 2022
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God that is literally the most beautiful noise, along with Rolls Royce Merlin V12, that man has ever created. Thanks Jack!
It’s a sweet note!!
Thanks Jack. Another insightful story about the genius of Perkins Engineering. Really enjoy this series. Congrats on the newborn, hope all is well.
Many thanks, all going great!
The dyno is also , almost period correct . I participated in it's fabrication and installation back in late 90s as an HSV fabricator in engineering dept . The basics haven't changed from what I see . The engine actually sits on a quick release trolley for easy engine change . There are two dyno rooms ( ex Nissan factory in Clayton ) and 4 trolleys if I remember . Two race engines running and lights all turned off was a spectacle of noise and exhaust glow . I'm just in shock to be brought back to my early 20s by this video . I'm an engineering type so huge Perkins fan as well .
I noticed a substantial lag on decelerate. I assume this dyno is acting like a huge flywheel in the footage? Engine appeared to lag massively on both up & down revs. Is this typical of dynos then & now?
Brings a tear to the eye. Thanks Jack. 👍🏻🇦🇺
Ripper engines!
STRONG !
Cheers
Nothing sounds better then a Holden V8 at full noise
Impala SS 409. : )
Apart from many other engines.
Yep Aussie motor in an Aussie car - can’t beat that !
@@ianbertenshaw4350 Agree on that one but they shut everything and outsourced.
Lingenfelter LS with a flat plane crank?
Good to see you back. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for watching!
Great video Jack, really good to see it on the dyno and really dirty down low and then slowly cleaning it up until its smooth.
8800 rpm on a cast block, wow, how about you and dad doing an article on what was done to the block and oil system to handle 8800 rpm on a Holden cast block
I second that motion!
Larrry wrote the final chapter on race prepping our little homegrown screamer 5.0L for power, economy & durability. Any insight from Larry on how he blew the rest of the V8 world away with a little old Holden would have to be gold.
Larry had the last say at Bathurst with such things. A detailed docco or a nice book on what he did to strengthen these amazing little powerplants would get my money.
Would get my money as well. I’m enamored with this amazing engine.
Nice work guys 👍
Cheers!!!!
LS the WORRRRLD🔥👅😛
@James Doe
Nah, it doesn't smell like fish either.
I just had a quick look at the record books where they list every occasion a "barra" won at Bathurst.
Geez... It would appear the poor old barra never ever won any kind of endurance race here, overseas or even in a lake.
BARRA. BIG RACE WINS... ZERO. Oops.
Awesome sounds! Thanks for the film Jack.
You’re welcome!
Congratulations on the new Bub!
Many thanks!
Gorgeous snarling beast. Epic stuff. Good to hear from ya mate 🤘🤘
Sweet sound isn't it! Cheers!
Just awesome! Well done mate👍🏼 I recon the old boy would be pretty stoked with what you have done.
Thanks 👍
Good numbers Jack. Larry knew exactly where to exact the power. 🇦🇺👏💪
Not too bad!
Congratulations with newborn all the best , that is absolutely sweet definitely hear there was plenty more in it , still caming out prob 2500rpm love it , wow one lucky shopper for this purchase that is gold ,
Thanks Jack
Cheers Patrick!!!
Righto Jack ... how much to take this off your hands, then ? Congrats on the family news 👏
Sorry mate, it's sold!
Awesome!
Nothing better than an
"iron lion" screaming.
I've got a VN engine i run on the salt at Lake Gairdiner, we've got that limited safely at 8600rpm and when its at that speed they sounds so sweet!
Great work👌
Would love to hear that thing at full noise.
How good!!
Baby, Family comes first. But You hinted at different exhausts due to the rules. Love to see the variations of all from even Group c till - end of the Holden V8 and even the Chev. I use to see these things in the back of Oran park pits but never paid enough attention then.
Yeah I dont have enough props for that unfortunately
Love watching your vids & this was a special one , I was working on my mates one last weekend very enjoyable, if only I could afford this special one from PE , keep up the good work 👍
Cheers!
Got a VN Calais here I bought new Chrissy 89! Love to get it!!
thanks for the content mate, interesting comparo between the twin and slide throttle 🧐 nothing quite sounds as good as the old 5-0 🎶. congrats on the home front 🍻
Love your work, Jack 👍
Cheers
Definitely subbed! Because I know what Perkins engineering quality is like!! Look forward to the vids Jack!
Cheers!
Love the sound
Sounds sweet doesnt it!
It’d be good to hear the exhaust
Bit tricky on the dyno!
WOW the slide valve engine Absolutely decimates the twin twin TB engine, i suspect the Twin TB engine is over cammed, probably a large solid flat tappet vs slide valve engines hydraulic roller
Yeah possibly not the ultimate "back to back" but still cool to see the differences power wise.
Bloody right. Nothing beats the sound of a truly hard reving Holden V8.
I built one years ago to put in my HQ Premier. It drove fantastic and didn't take too much encouragement to smack 8000rpm.
RIP, Rebuild, Ignite, Perform.
Go Holden.
Thats it!!
Even though i'm a Ford man- the Holden V8 sounds so much better then the Chev engines (which sound tinny to me), especially when they hammered down Conrod at full noise
It’s the firing order Holden picked. They knew how, among others things, to make it sound the best. All those US motors are only truck engines and they sound like it. You can hear the difference between the 253 and the 308, the smaller motor sounds even sweeter. Jeff
The current Chev sounds great with cross over header pipes!
Thanks Jack. Love it. Beutiful sounding 304 V8. Your dad was a master at getti g the best out of these engines. Pitycams loved turbos more. Eep the vids coming. Love watching PE videos. All the best
Cheers Anthony!!
This engine sounds like Frankston North (The Pines) in 2004
Good work guys
Cheers
What a beautiful sounds !!! 😜👍🇦🇺
Indeed!
I have a set of Headers. Very sort after...
PE ones? We recently re-manufactured a few sets for restorations
My VS needs that engine
Sorry its sold!
good job.
Cheers
Always interesting commentary Jack, stay well and I’m sure you’ll find a worthy new owner for a piece of history to continue on. I know I would love to have it if the money was’nt an object.
Brilliant
Cheers
Something about those motors with the twin throts.
Every time I would race a mate from stopped or rolling both stock vehicles besides exhausts he had a walky and I had a manual 195i series 3 roller 5.0 maloo. Not much difference on paper but boy the walky would comfortably pull away every time.
That's interesting, hopefully in controlled environments ;)
Sounds fkn amazing! Almost as wild as the old supercar spec 5l's 😍
It'd be great to put in my 86 Hiace van LOL
Would be cool!!
@@perkinsengineering
. . . Yep, perfect... Sit it in the back of his Hiace & send him straight to my place!
Got the cash ready. . .
Those mapping parts had me a little nervous knowing what Holden V8s are like at high revs. But you guys probably already did the oil galleries so I shouldn't be that nervous.
Always nervous ;)
Yeah sounding sweet as mate!
Cheers
The slide throttle engine kills it for area under the curve. Impressive.
Yes the twin throttle was never amazing for drivability either
I've still got one of your fully complete Perkins slide manifolds with trumpets and air box and a set of heavily modified race heads available thats suited for the slide available collecting dust
Send me some pics jack at perkinsengineering.com.au
@@perkinsengineering
Please, please, please Jack...
Take a camera with you.
Finding the guts of a PERKINS ENGINEERING SLIDE THROTTLE 5.0 LITRE is a big deal where I come from.
Footage of such an acquisition & the subsequent recovery & restoration would be eye watering for those of us who sat glued to our tellies back in 1993 to watch the Great Granddaddy of the Rank Outsiders gallop home for the win over the highly favoured big dollar imports.
Please... Make us another movie we'll cherish forever.
Sounds like one of my midnight runs through the Royal National Park in my VS SS. 🙂🇦🇺
lol
Can we get some specs on the engine. Specifically around the cam shaft. Be great to get some of the knowledge on these old iron lions
I wish I had the money to buy that engine.
Make us an offer!!!
Can we get a walk through and around of the modern v8 supercar?
We cover the modern HRT car in a fair few episodes, Ep10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 24, 31, 33, 35, 36, 39 and 41!
luvverly Holden V8 noises there :)
Sweet sounds!!
Ohh 😍 sounds lovely. Did these run a GM crank?
Yes sir, known as a "heavy crank"
@perkinsengineering awesome 👌🏼 should do a video on LPs early engine work would love to see inside one
I like that stuff
I can remember back in 70's, going from Melbourne to the Gold Coast in 14 hours, with an iron lion in a Holden panel van, don't make engine's like that any more.
That's approx an average of 136 kph (stopping at traffic lights and going through towns must have seen enormous top speeds) allowing for 5 20 minute refuels with no motor ways and highways still going through towns
That's good going!!
@@jdoe9518
That's very interesting...
I left Morayfield north of Brisbane at 4pm on Christmas eve in 1996 in a fairly capable WB ute with our spare race engine (we'd upgraded from a 186 to a 202 in an Improved Production LJ), a T5 & a 3.55 diff. I had 50 series Yokies on all four corners. That 186 might have made 200BHP. We had a Uniden radar detector, we were in a hurry & we drove all night. According to the original speedo we cruised on 200 many times & got away with it since the Highway Patrol weren't very active on Christmas eve. The ute was fuel efficient on SUs & very happy high in the revs. We stopped only twice for fuel. We were in Emerald Victoria at 8am on Christmas day. The solid cam 186 loved 200KPH in 5th with the T5. A good V8/4Speed with a taller diff should travel quicker than we did. We did Morayfield to Emerald in 16 hours on much improved roads. I recon a gun steerer driving a damn good car as opposed to my old ute could probably make that trip in 14 hours if he relentlessly drove like a shot dog. I had my missus on board & she was used to my constant sustained high speed driving & she knew the way to Emerald. I'd never been there. Ol' mate might be close to the truth? In this day & age, we're never likely to go like cut cats on public roads like we used to. It's virtually impossible now to test his claims. I had my missus with me & I still have my ute. It cruises easily on 200 once you get clear of socalled civilisation, the obedient whingers & the uniforms who are trained to hate us for NOT obeying. I don't drive like a slob. I don't go clanging into objects or other vehicles. I built the ute myself & it's an extension of myself. I've never driven it at ten tenths & I certainly don't recommend exceeding speed limits. Dick Johnson once said... Ban low performance drivers & not high performance cars. They still allow slow thinking inacapable vegetables to hold drivers licenses, so the limits must be kept low. I really enjoyed rocketing down to Victoria as quickly as I could get there. There was nothing dangerous about it. The highways were virtually empty & the ute behaved beautifully. Sadly, those days are long gone.
PS: If drunken drug addicts like Johnny O'Keef hadn't been there ahead of us & smashed themselves and the ridiculous barges they elected to drive to smitherines, the speed limits might not have become so excruciatingly restrictive. Sadly, we're all forced to drive at a snail's pace because the average beanbag can't even make it to the corner shop without killing someone, regardless of how safely we make modern cars & modern roads. The good ol' days are long over.
14 hours sounds do-able to me, especially if they left from the Tweed end of the Gold Coast. I drove from up near Caboolture which adds well over an hour to the trip even going like your life depends on it & that's exactly how I drive & stay alive.
@@johnbrooks9523 Amen brother. Love it. I remember driving my HQ van 308 m21 with a few goodies from Melb- Syd in 87 with my Mum. Every time she nodded off the foot went down and I was sitting on 160-180. Had a play with a BMW as well. Every time Mum woke up the foot came off to 130-140. She was happy with that. Yep, the good ole days.
Wicked
Cheers
Jack, congrats on the baby! Would you say this engine is the link between carbie Holden V8s of the past, and the more modern era of EFI racing holden V8s, then leading to the Chev V8?
Mr burns magic
Not wrong!!
I would do anything to get ahold of this in an ole commodore. I’m so mad the US never got to experience these beauties.
Love those twin TBs...Wish I had one....Was that sequential.?
That'd get the old chevy going.....i mean injection is nice but I'd rather be blown....👅😛😈👍
good one jack,,, great motor,, maybe a restored SV5000 setup. or a Grp A look alike,, pleanty of $1500 Vp,s out there in backyards to start with.
Good thinking!
Crazy dip in power under 5000rpm with the twin throttle body motor, is there an explanation for that, would be noticeable on the track in slow corners.
It was borderline un-driveable back in the day. Most of the drivers comments would back that up. Which is why other manifolds became a thing!
It's reversion created by a combination of the cam overlap, exhaust primary pulse and low velocity in the inlet runner with larger throttle openings. It would be manageable to drive through at part throttle because the air speed would increase due to the partially close throttle plates. Basically the exhaust pulse returns and inlet charge doesn't have enough energy to push it out so the cylinders don't clear and you end up trying to burn partially spend mixture with a terrible fresh mixture. The result is torque drops until it clears. Adding ignition in the bad spot might help. Alter cam timing might help. Different primary length pipes will help but will take torque away somewhere higher in the range.
This is a very common issue on race engines. Road engines starting using VVT/VTEC and dual runner length inlet manifold to avoid issues like this and provide low end driveability with top end power. Race cars use gearing and good drivers that don't drop under peak torque to avoid it ;)
@@jdoe9518
Yep, and driving a taxi doesn't quite cut it for some of us who enjoy the battle of keeping a big overlap screamer in it's torque window. Gimme the gnarly old Hot Holden any day over the easy to drive, high tech, variable everything, computor controlled, put you to sleep modern homogenised taxi engine.
Chasing the exhaust out of a poorly designed Holden head has always been a problem. You obviously know the score. Getting the recipe right ALWAYS involves reaching into the high revs department with any naturally aspirated Holden engine & driving them in the "cam" is rewarding & certainly not fot the lazy or the faint-hearted.
There's little excitement in just having power on tap. The big payoff comes with driving something you have to think about & work at to get that sweet high power. A Group C engine is the epitome of a power supply a driver has to work for. Developing the kind of skills you need to get an angry engine to deliver is hard work for some & greatly rewarding for others. Personally.... I enjoy the "work".
I consider myself lucky to have lived in a time where understanding people like yourself have got your heads around getting our old "consumer products" to go like stink. I'm still using my old Holden sixes & V8s & yes, they're angry on big overlap flat tappet cams & carburetors. But, I have a great time wringing their necks!
How good does the old 308 sound especially when it was just being revved
Good one jack 👍👍👍
304
It's a sweet sound!!! Cheers!!!
Nice torque increase on the slide engine between 4800 - 5500 though it probably doesn't spend much time down there & 6300-7000
That’s the rev range on the gear change drop on up change
Excellent old music, 5.0 or 5.7?
4.9
Who did the headers Jack? Where they done in-house back in the day?
There a nice looking set.
What's the displacement 355 or bigger? Good to see "Part" still at it..👌🤙
We did the headers for our 1993 engine. Yes they were done in-house for that period.
@@perkinsengineering
Would it be fair comment to describe the 1990 era engine as a tweaked Group A Walki/ hybrid V8 SuepCars compromised thing, as opposed to the 1993 PE SLIDETHROTTLE POWERPLANT refined to it's maximum within the then V8 SuperCars Rule Book?
Group A really tortured our Holden V8s & the diehards who hung in & stayed with them.
Lot of power for a 304?? where you get that power per cube from
It's not too bad, the slide manifold was better again. Power comes from a lot of things, quality build, up-spec piston, valvetrain, weight reduction, sump etc.
Gas air research made a clone of that manifold, rare items.
Very rare!
Love it .. which oil is being used? keep up the good work Jack
Castrol EDGE 25W50 (GP50)
Runs like a Perkins watch 8500
Sweet!
yep nothing cooler than a STEADY STATE dyno pull on a V8 engine, you can clearly hear the engine sound changing while they are tweaking the A/F ratio to its sweet spot :)
Couldn't agree more!
I'm sure Tesla owners have this sound file saved in their car stereo system
Now, you're asking for trouble!
The sort of greenhead snowflake who'd flip out a fortune for a basicly useless, coal burning, battery powered wanker kid's toy, would cringe, shit 'emselves & run to mummy after hearing anything like this Holden V8 screamer.
I still drive a1958 FC with an ex-Group C mongrel race engine onboard. It's trusty old 1960s/'70s technology, has a rowdy hardened steel straight cut cam gear, big overlap solid cam, an old steel crankshaft that rings like a bell at 7500RPM, a set of tuned length pipes & a straight through muffler. This car is noisy. Every time I drive around some pissweak whimp in a beige Camry, they get straight on their kiddyphone & call 000! I live over 2 hours from Brisbane & I drive the car as it was intended to be driven... quickly. Average braindead consumers are ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED of this car! I get into little towns like Blackbutt & Yarraman only to have the demented fun police coming at me head on, smashing on their brakes as they sail past, making screaming Uies & flying up my arse to ask me how fast was I going because some pathetic dweeb has shit 'emselves when I've blasted past them & they've had a big cry over their mobile phones to operators at 000.
So, don't be thinking these plastic creampuffs in Tesla Toy cars would be envious of the growl emitting from a hot old engine. They're not envious at all. THEY'RE SCARED SHITLESS!
They have all the money in the world & they're really pissed off when some old geezer like myself goes flying past them in their TupperWareMobiles in a highly modified museum piece & if they think you're enjoying yourself, they want the police to shoot you in the head.
This is the mentality of your average modern day narcissistic plastic snowflake. Any noise spooks them.
@@johnbrooks9523 I agree. I parked my Injected 5ltr outside the Tesla office at Chatswood last week. The workers across the road cheered and the Tesla workers agreed my car was way cooler!
Climate crisis is bullshit
Does the right side inlet run independently of the left side? It looks like it closes before the left one does.
So what was power figure? Flashed up too quick for me.
487hp @ 7000rpm
@@perkinsengineering cool thanks, that's a pretty healthy 304 for sure. Also congrats on the new Bub..
Jack is there a reason for it foaming up on the right bank but not the left
no baffles in the rocker cover
@@perkinsengineering thanks
Tri-Y exhaust manifolds? Better power curve then 4-into-1's? 🙂
We found it was better!
@@perkinsengineering I agree, I used them and people told me I was wrong LT 4-into-1 were the way to go. I'd noticed Burns Stainless in the USA supply Nascar with Tri-Y manifolds. 🙂
Would have run on Avgas in the day, 98 ULP now or E85?
95-98 ULP in the day not Avgas, 98 BP Ultimate today
@@perkinsengineering Thanks. Very neat crank trigger bracket that looks to repurpose the OEM 304 distributor hall effect sensor and connector.
Where's Larry's VL Walkinshaw racer these days?
Which one? PE004, 005, 007, 008, 009, 010 were all VL Walky's!
@@perkinsengineering the car I recall was white and had Perkins Engineering livery. A blue/yellow car too?
@@jamiesonscott7577 white PE rocket was initially PE009 which was destroyed post Bathurst 1992. PE010 started off white PE, then red PE and then Bob Jane T-Marts blue and yellow for sandown and Bathurst 1992.
@@perkinsengineering is PE010 still handing out smiles somewhere ?
@@jamiesonscott7577 yeah recently restored hopefully on track again soon
Tweeks for 8800rpm ??
Starting with piston and valve clearance at a guess
Wow... whats the compression up to for an engine like that on pump fuel gotta be over 11:0:1... someone should build an LP lron lion as a 383 stroker with 367 cube combo on E85 at 14:1 just for giggle.
@@pooheadispoppingout pretty sure theres a Full Boost video where they interview some engine builder & he's virtually done exactly that 👍
i thought my car idled bad on 5 and 3/4 cylinders
Why? This one idle's pretty good
Qwantwz hp??
Hmmm a gen3 Camaro with an iron lion. Now that would be sweet winding up down Conrod!
Would be very cool to see Larry look over a current “flat pack” gen3 chassis! Get his thoughts on the both the design and the philosophy of the new control chassis
He doesnt have much interest in the new stuff!
Is it running a solid lifter cam for those kinda revs & did it round off the cam lobes & you had to change cam & lifters after each dyno run 👅😛😲
WATCH OUT.... Its a Holden Grenade.
Barely Holden together...
But great build, credit where its due.