Just because he has a massive platform doesn’t mean he has to agree with your, or my, positions. It’s not like Mr. Beast could topple capitalism but decides not to so he can continue to make videos about helping people.
I agree with everything you said. But in the same you would think that a country with obesity rates like in the US there would be more obese actors that would be given more opportunities and roles. Empathy is extremally important, but at what point do we ask ourselves if we got to a position where we also need to give these people positions, opportunities and a place to be seen and heard and not just be talked about by us.
I am one of those folks for whom youtube is kind of cable TV - I see stuff, enjoy it, think about it and even share the link and my thoughts with my peers. But, once in a while, I remember that for YT creators, engagement is paramount and I remember to "like" and consider leaving a comment - incidentally, the latter only happens when I happen to see a really thought provoking video, such as this one. Seldom with as much eloquency as you did, I previously used similar arguments in some discussions I had. In sum, I can only thank you for yet another great analysis!
Speaking as a heavily obese individual, I wholeheartedly agree with your points and have always felt this way. While my weight has not reached to quite the scale seen in The Whale, I often fear I will reach that point one day because I struggle to control my eating and have similar emotional difficulty portrayed by Fraser. I was absolutely was enamored and impressed with the movie and his performance and know they did their work behind the scenes to deliver an authentic feeling story that I feel captures much of the struggles I've faced or fear as a fat individual. As a side note, I really loved Fat Thor in Avengers End Game and his portrayal of depression, another thing I live with. So long as there are voices of those who live the experiences behind the shaping of a role portraying those experiences, I believe that's all that's needed. I can tell when a role is well researched and preformed vs when its a caricature for the sake of simply having that role. I'm also autistic and one of my favorite shows is Atypical in which Keir Gilchrist plays an autistic character despite not being on the spectrum. That doesn't diminish the authenticity whatsoever and its the show in which I feel most seen as a person which conveys so much truth in what I live with. I recommend that show to everyone to have an idea of my challenges and hardships I often face in society and socializing. Performance definitely makes a difference and I fundamentally understand that while I'm an obese depressed autistic, that if I was given these roles, I would do a disservice towards representation as I would never be able to convey on quite the scale and power these two actors have in getting these stories to make you feel and understand anywhere to their level. I'm very happy to have seen growth and evolution in cinema in depicting the various kinds of people that exist. I've learned a lot not only about others in which I don't identify with, but myself too. It has helped me to become richer in my understanding and sensitivity towards issues I thought I understood and issues I didn't even know existed. When done right, it definitely empowers awareness and positive change. I hope the trends continue and we start seeing less and less caricatures and more authentic diversity represented in media telling true experiences such as with The Whale. Great video. I've watched a handful so far and I'm going to subscribe because I enjoy your insight into the things I've watched so far.
I agree with your point of view. although I will add another dimension - the obese actors and the disabled actors have only a few opportunities to be cast, and when even this opportunities are given to more "classic" looking actors they have them even less, especially as a main characters. Same thing it is with trans-actors - if they will be casted more often as cis-characters than I won't have only problem with cis-actors playing trans-characters.
Thank-you for saying this!! I cannot believe the blinded hypocrisy behind saying, "a character needs to be more than their fatness" and then going on to say only fat people should play the role... but I thought we WEREN'T supposed to only judge the person based on their fatness? It doesn't make any sense. I'm someone with a speech disability and straight up, if I got hired, chosen for a role, or anything of the like ONLY because of my disability I'd be fucking pissed and feel like a pawn to make the hirer feel better about themselves or get some tax write off. NO THANK-YOU! These reporters and loud twitter leftists mean well, but they're completely misguided -- because, frankly, they're trying to be heroes to make themselves feel better, instead of letting us fight our own battles. All it takes is to see how many of them are privileged in power, money, or whatever and its clear their passion comes from "guilt of self" and not much else. I do NOT want to take a role that centres on my disability. I'm too close to it, it would be traumatizing and biased only to my own experience and not that of everyone else with my disability. I mean fuck, even watching the Kings Speech, I didn't care for it and didn't think it was like my experience much, but my brother who has the same disability as me absolutely loved it and felt it captured his life experience really well. The fact that two people with the same disability can have completely difference experiences in life to where a movie showcasing it reflects differently for each of us, only tells me that leftist don't care about individuals. They care about ideas and stories and turning people into things, but as soon as they have to face real people they're stuck at what to do. Because there is no answer to helping individuals; only groups - but individuals within groups contradict each other all the time, because, ding ding ding, we're human, welcome to the human race. I would rather someone who doesn't have my disability play the part in a film, than someone who has it. Sure, have them talk to a lot of people who DO have that disability, get a deep well rounded understanding of how we live, talk to a lot of us, see where we differ and where we are the same, and apply what you need into your performance, but this whole "hire X actors to play X" is fucking stupid. Some of the greatest male leads in straight rom-coms are played by gay men. You don't need to be X to portray X you just have to be a good fucking actor. End of story. Fuck these people who can't understand how incredibly SIMPLE that is.
I agree with the point that a high profile actor can provide a platform for empathy, and greater visibility to these projects. I disagree though with the closing sentiment, it may be the case that there are not many popular, fat or trans actors, but my question then becomes why? I understand Jared is trying to say that we have to operate in the world we live in, and I agree but we also need to give, fat, trans, and other marginalized group the ability to establish themselves in this scene. I think there's a middle ground here were we need to think about why such groups have not been able to achieve the same stature and how to change that without making perfect the enemy of good. To say that everyone on the other side is being unrealistic is to me a bit of a strawman.
I think while your argument is salient, I wish you had steel manned the other side a bit more. How would you respond to these two points: how does your perspective deal with past actors who've played POC ie: Mickey Rooney in breakfast at Tiffany's? How is this different from portraying trans characters and obese characters? Additionally, there's a question of employment for folks with these identity markers in these fields they traditionally can't get work in. I agree with you ultimately, but would have loved if you had dealt with the most salient parts of their argument.
@dev stuff Hey there buddy, I understand why it's not the same. Other people do not otherwise they would not be making the argument they've been making. Take a chill pill.
Yea I really appreciated Jared’s point b/c it humanizes the other side beyond some half though “meritocracy” argument. But I too think it overlooks why people are upset about the casting. Although, personally I think there’s areas of gray with a lot of this….like how fat (as a man) do you have to be to be too fat to cast v. just being a trans actor in general are completely different struggles. Like this isn’t the only movie this year where there’s gonna be a fat dude in a prominent role, but damnit there might really only be one with a trans character, so I understand more why trans characters should be portrayed by trans actors.
I expected to like this, and was looking forward to the confirmation bias, but I was not expecting such beauty. Jared, this is just wonderful! Empathy is so underrated.
I get your point, but I think there's also an economical argument to be made. Let me explain. Imagine being an actor with actual cerebral palsy. Realisiticaly, how many acting oportunities are you going to have over your entire carreer? Well, not many. Now, imagine if one of those oportunities was instead given to an actor who doesn't have cerebral palsy. If the only roles an actor with cerebral palsy is going to be allowed to play are given instead to actors without cerebral palsy, you're pretty much expelling the former from the market place. Also, it would be interseting to ask ourselves why an actor without cerebral palsy can play a person with cerebral palsy, but we wouldn't buy for a second and actor with cerebral palsy playing a person without it. Obviously, this doesn't apply to every case, that's why it's a complex issue. And that's also why a thin person playing a fat guy is ok, but a white person playing a black guy not so much. Context and history matter. Blackface is wrong not because of the practice itself, but because the practice was the consequence of an existing discrimination that didn't allow black people to be actors.
@@Puerco-Potter Exactly! Like, the "problem" (not a problem) isn't even that the dude isn't overweight it's that he isn't overweight enough. Which is ridiculous on so many levels, but especially when as a trend this community allegedly should be in favor of body positivity and accepting people for who they are.
@@Puerco-Potter Doesn't matter, they should have searched the globe, or gotten someone from my 600 pound life and trained them to become an actor because we the fat people have been discriminated against for so long. We deserve to see ourselves up there getting the Oscar and all the praise. Sorry I could not help myself, I needed some way to mock these insane white leftist middle class women who always seem to be the ones who comes up with these ridiculous complaints. Being fat isn't a character trait or a group identity. I've been almost every size you can imagine, fat, underweight, six pack, normal and I never got a membership card for being any of it. I get that I'm fat but not this extreme size, I'm more in line with the size Fraser is now, probably 10-15 pounds over, so the argument would be made "you are not in this category" fine. There are plenty of movies about people on the clock, should I get mad about them not getting actors who have a limited amount of time left like I do? I mean FFS the woman who started the healthy at any size campaign came out and said she regret doing it. To use the phrase as someone: As someone who got beaten up regularly for being fat when I grew up it's nice that more people today look at that as unacceptable behavior and that you should treat people with some level of dignity no matter their size. But we have gone the other way where there are hospitals in the world that doesn't ask the patient to go on the scale because it's triggering for them. First off, GOOD!, if it triggers you to go on the scale then you know that being the size you are isn't healthy. Second if your having an operation it's kind of important to know certain things since your size actually does affect how you react to certain medication dosages. Then again these are the same people who don't think you should assign a gender a birth. And consider it sexist if doctor with any sense is going to treat a woman differently than a man if they come in with stomach pain. Even though the reason the first things you check on a woman in that situation is different should be a VERY easy to understand. There is a reason why being Karen is a thing, these recent articles about the fat suit is one of the ultimate Karen moves. What's even more Karen is they talk a big game about how great and beautiful it is to be fat, complain when a celebrity gets healthy, then they themselves get thin and start to cry about how they are being attacked online for simply getting healthy.
can we make jared more famous so there world can become a better place? I'm not even kidding, he manages to articulate these "controversial" thoughts so clearly to where I think most people would be able to understand or even empathize with his point of view.
I remember feeling this way back when Scarlett was shamed off that project. I said "I guarantee that movie is not going to be made anymore" then about a week later the project was cancelled so the story didn't get told. Overall it was a net loss for the trans community. Now it seems every studio is too scared to make any movies about trans people. Love to see this articulated so well
I'm not someone who cares if an actor has the same characteristics as their character and agree with every point you made. One argument I can see is that there are a limited amount of roles for actors who are, for example, morbidly obese or trans and I can understand frustration that those limited roles are being given to people with a much wider range of possibilities. However, that is an issue with filmmaking as an industry, not the art itself.
I mean theres also the argument that jared brought up. If there is an actor or actress available for the role in the minority of the given role but as a professional they are vastly inferior to the, lets be honest, probably cis/het actor wouldnt it make the movie just worse for the sake of some vague moral purity?
@@50733Blabla1337 let's be honest, even if the obese man is a good actor, Brendan is an excellent actor, he is believe even as George of the Jungle. Maybe there is a great one of kind actor that is morbidly obese, but also, the movie producers won't be casting all around the world for months just to find him.
@Puerco-Potter ye thats my point. Obviously having these chances is something you need to become a better actor but railing against aaa productions not taking the risk of casting unknown actors in leading roles is naive at best imo
Came here to say this. I don't even really think it's a problem because Jared's view is great, it's just somewhat muddled by being posed as a counterargument to this criticism. I think the problems of diversity in casting are better included in the conversation around nepotism in Hollywood. It's not like Scarlet Johansen is an equivalent actor to Daniel Day Lewis, so she can play an Asian trans man better than anyone else on Earth. It's just because she happens to be the actress cast in the highest grossing films. I'm not saying she was cast due to nepotism, I'm saying that studio casting decisions are a different conversation than one about actors performance.
Jared presented a good argument for allowing actors to portray such characters, but even Jared knows that an actor has limitations and cannot possibly perform all roles. Jared conveniently left out race from the discussion. Sometimes it's best to cast actors who are from those groups. As for Scarlett Johansson being considered to portray a trans man, she did not get the part and it was probably because of a weak performance. Hillary Swank's performance as Brandon Teena was very good back in the day, but why not cast a trans man today? This IS 2023 and Hollywood should be casting those roles to actors from those groups when the performance is convincing and award worthy.
I sgree, though to suss out one nuance, I believe the reason people demand obese actors play obese characters (or diabled actors for characters with disabilities, Asian actors to play Asian characters, etc.) is that Hollywood discrim9inates against such actors (or is perceived to do so depending on the trtait at issue). Hollywood does not discriminate against "kind" actors or "funny" actors. In the process of adcocating for more roles for actors in those marginalized groups it does seem some people have gotten a little confused and so the messaging does suggest, as you say, that it's about the insights such an acxtor would bring to that character (in which case other atributes become increasingly relevant along with the one that gets them marginalized).
Thank you Jared for this video. I learned a lot. I remember debating the situation of "actors not sharing the elements of their character with a friend." we tried to get to the bottom of the phenomenon and in the end came to the conclusion that perhaps our stances are influenced by how we view the phenomenon, be it from "the art" (which actor can best portray the creator's vision) and economics (employment opportunity for actors who do share the elements of the character) I still have much to learn
Makes me think of Wesley Snipes, John Leguizamo, Patrick Swayze, Robin Williams, and Dustin Hoffman. All who played roles (of varying portrayals) but still broke the mythos of masculinity
Tom Hanks in Philadelphia and Hillary Swank in Boys Don't Cry are two of the most moving and incredible performances Ive ever seen. While I think its great that films get diverse actors that can authentically replicate an identity, I sincerely believe that a roll should be given to the who can give the best performance.
11:55 elegant point. good art conveys truths in many layers. authentic experiences as source material should be the goal. and with acting in particular a non-minority playing a minority would only widen the "bridge to empathy" for other non-minority fans of their and mere lived experience doesn't qualify you to authentically act on film. Would it be fair to say the katie couric media won't be satisfied until all movies are just documentaries, then? Great video
id approach the problem from the other way. Trans actors would have been rejected from Holywood over and over because there are hardly a wealth of bankable trans actors, nevermind ones that will take up the deal and have their schedule open; and I think that's something people would like to change. Of course the fallacy made is that that somehow makes the system *better* or something. Or that *fat* is an identity akin to gender/race. When profit motive is the #1 driver, legitimate criticism of inauthentic representation makes us forget that it's not inherently malicious to challenge our empathy by writing what you don't personally experience. It's just how momey intersects with it all. so while the examples are pretty iconic and hard to contest, I still remember the Green Book winning Best picture in 2019 despite being like a solid 8/10 popcorn flick at best.
A tangential point: "When taken at face value the notion that we should listen to minorities can be translated as listening to minorities that agree with me." To paraphrase Lindsay Ellis.
Jared, I'm wondering if you have ever heard of the book "An Inconvenient Indian" by Thomas King? It deals with the stereotypes of Indians/natives (whatever you want to call us), portrayed in media, and how media uses ethnicity to score (social justice) points. It also details the history of genocide and broken treaties that took place ever since colonization, but I feel the first part is more appropriate to what you discuss here.
Did the internet just forget that Brendan Frasier spent a decade as a fat guy? He couldn't work, his wife left, his fans turned in him and people made fun of him for being fat and useless. Like, he wasn't whale big, but come on. He was perfect for the role.
Lucille Ball, when preparing for the role Stone Pillow, lived as a homeless person on the streets of NYC and lived the experience first hand. It was one of her best roles and did a great job in highlighting the struggles homeless people deal with. I'm a member of the LGBT community. As a gay man I have no issues with a straight actor portraying a gay man, as long as their portrayal doesn't feed into sterotyping tropes and adavnces empathy towards my community. Should Neil Patrick Harris only play gay roles and be excluded from playing a straight man because he hasn't lived that experience?
It sounds like some people want most movies to be quasi-documentaries. They just want to watch people who have the condition or identity perform the role, rendering the need for acting minimal, regardless of the quality of the end product.
If you want to learn about obese people's struggles told by actual obese people that's what documentaries are for, but I'm willing to bet if you ask people complaining about brendan fraser if they've ever seen any of these documentaries 95% would say no. Most people care about things just enough to tweet about them, anything that would take more than two minutes of their time they won't do.
You can make yourself fat and you can make yourself skinny. A fat suit is not even close to the same thing as black/brown face. The fact that its a straight man playing a gay man is the only argument i would even begin to hear out but i still think its a bad take. Its called "acting".
Mayor of Bagtown Fraser is a closet Queen. He walked out on his wife and kids in 2007 with a young guy he met on The Mummy 3 and brought him home. Then he divorced Afton before she could out him and discarded the boy. Why do you think he paid all that HUSH money?
"only aliens should play aliens" ;) acting serves as a wonderful tool to step into someone others shoes. To experience another consciousness a different role. Art and games lets us feel different selves. Human can play animals, women can play man, children can play Zombies. The treasure in art is that they are pokeballs for conscious states. They communicate possessing another soul.
Some of your arguments about empathy bridging are compelling, however it seems like you're disregarding the fact that actors/actresses who are fat or trans or disabled exist and do not have as many job opportunities as more mainstream actors. A thin actor can wear a fat suit to play a character written as fat, but fat actors are not routinely cast as characters who aren't explicitly written as fat.
Glib presence… 😆😆😆ya, exactly what I was thinking. If they’re pissed about This guy in a fat suit, the Baron Harkanin guy is going to make their heads Explode 😆😆😆
I think the whole thing perfectly fits into the contemporary (pretty liberal capitalist) problem of enforcing identities where we should enforce subjectivities and forms of individual and collective subjectivation. Apart from that which I won't further expand here, the idea that a fat man only can interpret a fat man, a trans woman a trans woman and so forth is pretty stale also because we're basically saying that we don't want new stories, new contents, new characters to share (in order to foster empathy and comprehension through identification and all the other processes between a character and the spectator). We just want to put people on screen basically talking of themselves. It's something that in very perverted way is happening to the basic cradle of story-telling in general which is books. In books, not just the top shelves, but half of the shelves in general at this point have been colonized by various form of first-person stories in which at best the main character doesn't share with the author the name and some features. The Nobel prize to Annie Ernaux, for as deserved as it may have been (I can't say, her books fell flat and void on me), was the tombstone of this process of selfie-fication of literature in the Western world.
Agree to disagree. Your points can easily apply to blackface actors regardless of the history and origins of the practice. So long as an established white actor spends a ton time and effort with research, dedicates himself to the process and in the end, puts on blackface to go play a disabled black gay trans woman.......It would be legitimate right? Its not like there's tons of real black gay trans diabled actors out there anyway. Right? Also, way to be a trans ally by not doing the simple act of avoiding to play one game. Small acts buddy. If skipping a single game out of solidarty is too much..... We're not allies are we? But then again... are you an ally? Or is the term simply a scam to shift focus from solving systemic issues by turning it into personal identity? Still will stay subscribed though. I like your ability to articulate your thoughts and ideas.
Hey Jared, great video, my only criticism is that you kept referring to Brendan *Frasier* and not Brendan *Fraser*. I like tossed salad and scrambled eggs as much as the next guy, but in regards to this topic, Frasier has definitely left the building.
When it comes to the argument of representation in film I agree with 98% of your arguments but I still nonetheless hold the opposite opinion that for most roles that a talented actor can be found it would be preferable to find someone with the lived experience because Hollywood has far too long been an exclusive club of very specific types of people and opening these roles to people that share that lived experience in my opinion vastly broadens the culture of what hollywood is which in my opinion will lead to more of these stories being told not less.
@devstuff2576 Obviously because the actor is the person directly representing the lived experience. Everyone else offscreen is just a supporting role not representing anyone but themselves.
I wanted to say that I agree with the idea that anyone can play any role if they're capable of doing it justice. But I stipulate a caution: There is an issue behind movies, which is the movie industry. This is not a question of an actor's ability to play a role, but rather an actor's ability to *OBTAIN* a role. Long held prejudices and biases have kept minority populations from being able to obtain roles that they could easily fulfill. We have a long history of this; black roles being played by white actors in black face, yellow face (Mickey Rooney comes to mind), when suitable actors from their actual backgrounds existed. Obviously some exceptions to this exist, for example, the Jazz Singer was actually an attempt at progress by the main actor (which I believe is a movie that would more viscerally portray the point you're making in this video.) Instead of asking yourself whether or not it's fine if an actor can play a role (it generally is), you should ask yourself what actors need work? I believe it's a failing at recognizing the movie industry as a work of labor, with actors as skilled workers. * I wanted to add a caveat to the above. The ability to pretend (physically or in mind) to be someone else is essential towards empathy. We draw upon our own human experiences in order to understand others, and acting creates a simulated (hopefully safe) human experience for those we have not experienced ourselves. To play the part is an effort to understand another human being, and there should be few bars on that freedom of experience. The above is a weak argument for MOVIES though, it is a strong argument for THEATER. The fact is the majority of people will never play a part in a movie. While a movie can be an important experience, it is limited in its necessity for its audience to understand and participate, it is a medium for a message. On the other hand communal theater is something almost *anyone* can participate in, and by doing so it engages and necessitates understanding of the character for the experience of being an actor. We often forget that acting is for everyone, and that acting is a community service.
If economic justice is the priority in casting people then shouldn’t we look along class lines and put poor people in fat suits? Sure, a fat person could become a rich celebrity if they were cast, but someone from a poor country, if given the same opportunity, could feed their family. Is the former really our aim? That’s the Justice worth yelling on Twitter about (not you specifically, just the general notion that economic Justice means specifically boosting the careers of people of certain identity markers)?
@@JaredBauer I would say that most actors already are poor people in fat suits. Joke aside, my friend from community theater actually did do summer work at Disneyland to pay for her tuition. But I think what you've said brings up some very interesting questions about social pressure and survivorship bias. Is there a way to apply social pressure in a positive way? If so, is it worth it? Is the actual goal of social pressure explicit? Or is the value in social pressure far more broad and less readily apparent? Are those who complain on twitter simply deluding themselves into believing they are a positive influence, and are instead damaging? On the flipside we also have to ask ourselves about the validity of an actor's performance in movies. We can easily point out all the times that an actor's performance has had a positive influence on our lives, but what ideas counter that notion? If we want to show the good that comes with performance, we also have to recognize the bad. When we see a performance that we label as exceptional, are we simply validating our own biases? Do we believe we've succeeded without a comparison to see how we've failed or can do better? *By going down this route we are asking about the nature of making movies itself.* If you want to find the answer about making movies you have to look at it for what it is, a product of continual labor over years which requires skill development, education, experience, resources, time, opportunity, manpower, cooperation, capability, creativity and persistence. I wouldn't say it's about dividing across class lines and forcibly picking individual participants. It's about understanding the system that produces the movies we make and what comes of it. Are movies influential, a product of society, or something else? Can we utilize that which degrades society, such as blackface, and use it to give humanity to a subjugated people? I'm not so much interested in individual identities and actor's performances like these specific Twitter users are, and am more interested in the societal forces at play. I'd definitely love to hear your take because I'm sure you have great insight on it.
Yeah it's art, people forgot that I guess. I remember when people got mad with Jared Leto for Dallas buyers club and I was like dude...a movie is an artistic representation of something, grow up. The Whale is the first movie I've seen in a long time that has like literally changed my life. Aronofsky knows what's up.
Interesting video! I am interested to know what you think about actors playing different races. For a while, there was a rumor that Leo Dicaprio is going to play Rumi a middle eastern mystic and poet. Do think the same argument applies here as well, that white actors help the audience sympathize with characters of other races?
I’m curious about this too. It seems like there are some relevant similarities between playing people of different races, which Jared doesn’t really address here. I don’t imagine that Jared would defend the position that white people should portray black characters, like Robert Downey Jr. satirically donning blackface in Tropic Thunder? So, where’s the line drawn? What are the relevant differences? These questions are asked in good faith. Genuinely curious.
@@nich_pk There's no single line but it depends on the culture and context. The issue with white people playing black people comes from the history between, and even particularly the history of that act. In a world where black people lived had lived as equal citizens in the US from the beginning, and there was never any institutionalized racism it might theoretically even be ok for actors to portray even in blackface. Edit: Of course roots of colonialism go much further than the United States, this was a huge oversimplification, but I hope you get the point.
@@tvsonicserbia5140 what if they can pass for certain race. The reality is famous actors are going to help that story reach more audiences and perform better at the box office.
I think that empathy point is "why would you think non-fat people could benefit from a fat story if you don't think a non fat actor could play a fat character" It's to say it's impossible for people to get the right understanding, but if that's your guiding principle, who is your audience for the fat story? Only fat people should be watching it?
RJ Mitte played a character with Cerebral palsy on Breaking Bad, he has Cerebral palsy but not as severe as his character. How much like the character do you need to be, for it to be acceptable to play them? I was about 8 years old in 1994 when The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert was made, I had no understanding of drag queens or trans. My connection into the story was as simple as I lived in Alice Springs, but themes of the story still had an impact on me and my views of the world, even though the actors were cis and even though I had no Idea what that meant.
But here is my problem with it. I am from india. Here , there are no trans actor in movie industries. If trans characters will be played by cis actors and cis characters will be played by cis actors, then what should trans actors play? Transgender trees in the background!?
The whole point of cinema is story telling. And what we get out of those stories depends on how well they're told. If a handicapped, accurately gendered or sexually oriented actor is available to play the part of that sort of person, and they're a good fit for the role otherwise, great. But what if no such person is available or none are right for the part? Should we patronize whomever meets the physical criteria and put them in, letting the production suffer? We've made good progress getting out of the whites-only trap in films and theater. Let's just continue on our current path, support training actors of all stripes, cast according to best fit for the role, and let them tell the stories they're qualified to tell.
You do realize that the majority of excellent actors are fat or unattractive right? Like, the reason movies have bad acting is the resistance to cast authentically over movie stars, not the other way around. Brendan Fraser is only famous in the first place because he was hot, not his mastery of “the craft.” It would be very easy to find an overweight actor who can act as well as him
Only allowing people that identify as characters will prevent us to tell morally devious character stories. It would be the death of criticism in cinema.
this is getting out of hand. last month, here in my country, a play was interrupted and boycotted because a trans-character was played by a non-trans. This is not fighting for equality or representation, it's censorship!
Jared, perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on separating your support for the produced piece of media itself vs support for the creators. I generally agree that a tastefully well done piece of film that creates a more empathetic point of view is more important than whether the actors themselves have lived the experience themselves directly. However, I took note at the very end of your interest in playing the recent Harry Potter video game, and I’d be genuinely curious to your reaction to fellow TH-camr/twitch streamer Jessie Gender’s take on JK Rowling and arguments among the Harry Potter fandom over whether one can purchase a piece of medium that directly supports someone who is openly transphobic can be ethically justified if one simply clarified that they don’t agree with the creators transphobia sentiments. Regardless of your opinion on this matter, I think you of all people would be able to offer up a nuanced and intelligent insight on this topic and I’d be curious on how you would tackle such a topic. Cheers.
In all fairness a part of such critics arguments is understandable because the job of acting is traditionally reserved for good or at the minimum aesthically indifferent looking people whereas Fat people are traditionally seen as noticibly bad looking, so maybe thats why they would prefer seeing an obese actor gaining recognition and adoration for a job traditionally reserved for slim people. However they fail or atleasg forget that this adoration can be found in other fat or obese actors who have been in Cinema, albeit in lesser numbers but there are many.
as much as i agree with most of the points made here, and don’t think brendan was miscast, i do struggle with some aspects. 1. with films like priscilla queen of the desert, seeing these actors known for their portrayals of traditionally masculine characters in roles like a drag queen/trans women may be impactful to many in the general public however the fact remains that opportunities for trans women in the industry are still extremely limited. while this may have been an enlightening experience to you and many of the other cis heterosexual men out there, young trans people still aren’t seeing REAL representation of their identity which you pointed out was so important 2. when does this portrayal of an actor turning into someone they are not become caracarure? you made the point that actors for a role where the person is fat should be considered for more than their external appearance however does this extend to other physical characteristics like race? anyway great video keep it up
In the sea of absurd opinions pushed by, what I believe to be, critics that have nothing of interest to say and try to be provocative to appear intellectual (the definition of a charlatan), you, Jared, are the only one that can bring sanity into this world.
A man helps 1k PPL see, but PPL just want to bitch about how he doesn't share the ideology as them. Have you considered maybe that he doesn't share your ideology? Mr. Beast isn't out to replace the system, he just made a business model of helping people while doing business. My personal observation is that the PPL who bitch and whine about the actions of those who take action are rarely action-takers themselves. Being a leftist myself, I really need to say that leftists really need to make more space in their heads for PPL who may not share their world view. MLK said we shouldn't be judged based on the color of my skin, but the content of my character. But what's happening right now judging on their ideology instead of the content of their character.
if a person can only empathize with "the real deal" and can't get past the suit, how empathetic are they really? "show me someone who's really so fat that they're about to die from it!" Sure, that outlook is not adjacent to fetishization or exploitation *at all* . For me, as someone who's not from the US, this notion that total progress just suddenly arrived and now everyone better have the right ideas, otherwise they're not just stupid, they're evil, is... obscene. Twitter echochambers have impacted people's view about themselves and the world so much that there seems to be no end to this circus in sight. no offence, hopefully, but the US has always seemed like a country without a clue about anyone else, but still trying to teach "the right way". now it's just an absurd display, with this shit pointed inwards and outwards alike.
Loved this video. I have nothing to add that you haven't already addressed in this excellent video. Al I can do is thank you and leave this comment to appease the democracy destroying YT-algorithm
I completely understand this view Jared, there is a lot of artistic and humanistic value in actors without the sed identity portrayed that role's identity. but the argument all the media and culture war portrays is 100% about economics. In a world in which money is a resource in order to survive, people are supporting different types of minority actors so they can be portrayed more realistically and be accepted into the industry. I see your argument lacking the counterpoints of going back toward standard actors of the past, and not giving new actors a chance. For example in Mr. beast, this is reducing people's lives into gameshow antics. Dissolving the dignity and privacy any person has away, as long as they are willing to get on camera, say thank you and praise the indvidual who gave them the opportunity. When money stands in the way of living, then art is only availble to those who are truley free. the rich
Hi Jared, I think I disagree with you on this. Even though you make a good case about empathy for the casting choice, it is also about the control of narrative over somebody else's experience that doesn't sit well with me. Also the fact that, a needy fat actor could also have been a choice for employment in this film (although I absolutely adored Brendan's performance). The defense of casting choice could also have been that, the actor....who has made a household name for himself by maintaining a specific kind of body for years has come now to a physical shape that is completely opposite of what he embodied before. That must have made him feel some type of way for years now, and we know how intensely actors and models go through their body image issues and that could have given Brendan some kind of perspective to play the role of a fat person. I don't know. Also I feel there was really a lack of conversation in the whale discourse about suicide ideation in the play...Like how self hate completely deforms one's self image and that is somehow exacerbated by religious ideologies.
Katharine Hepburn won 4 oscars for personify 4 different human beings. Accting is personify, if you put a gay person in a gay role she or he is not acting, is not adding value to the role. The same logic should therefore be applied to a psicopath or a nazi. Intolerance is the unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect opinions or beliefs contrary to one's own. And an intolerant is one that cannot respect a profesional actor doing her/his job.
Guys, Jared is clearly ramping up quality. Please show him some love and support so we can continue to get better and better.
Yeah. Let's be excellent to each other!
@@Hesaysalot do you think helping others doesn't advocate for change by the act of helping?
@@Hesaysalot sounds like you've got some underling prejudice that projects unto the situation.
Just because he has a massive platform doesn’t mean he has to agree with your, or my, positions. It’s not like Mr. Beast could topple capitalism but decides not to so he can continue to make videos about helping people.
They do change something… 1000 people can see now.
I agree with everything you said.
But in the same you would think that a country with obesity rates like in the US there would be more obese actors that would be given more opportunities and roles.
Empathy is extremally important, but at what point do we ask ourselves if we got to a position where we also need to give these people positions, opportunities and a place to be seen and heard and not just be talked about by us.
the argument that viewers need to see characters that look like them in order to connect seems more like narcissism than empathy.
This is one of your best videos in a while. Keep it up dude!
Seconded
As a cannibalistic serial killer I resent Anthony Hopkins taking the job that was rightfully mine on Silence of the Lambs.
I am one of those folks for whom youtube is kind of cable TV - I see stuff, enjoy it, think about it and even share the link and my thoughts with my peers. But, once in a while, I remember that for YT creators, engagement is paramount and I remember to "like" and consider leaving a comment - incidentally, the latter only happens when I happen to see a really thought provoking video, such as this one. Seldom with as much eloquency as you did, I previously used similar arguments in some discussions I had. In sum, I can only thank you for yet another great analysis!
Jared! We miss you! Please come back and do this kind of content more often
He never left? He's been pretty active on this channel
Speaking as a heavily obese individual, I wholeheartedly agree with your points and have always felt this way. While my weight has not reached to quite the scale seen in The Whale, I often fear I will reach that point one day because I struggle to control my eating and have similar emotional difficulty portrayed by Fraser. I was absolutely was enamored and impressed with the movie and his performance and know they did their work behind the scenes to deliver an authentic feeling story that I feel captures much of the struggles I've faced or fear as a fat individual. As a side note, I really loved Fat Thor in Avengers End Game and his portrayal of depression, another thing I live with. So long as there are voices of those who live the experiences behind the shaping of a role portraying those experiences, I believe that's all that's needed. I can tell when a role is well researched and preformed vs when its a caricature for the sake of simply having that role.
I'm also autistic and one of my favorite shows is Atypical in which Keir Gilchrist plays an autistic character despite not being on the spectrum. That doesn't diminish the authenticity whatsoever and its the show in which I feel most seen as a person which conveys so much truth in what I live with. I recommend that show to everyone to have an idea of my challenges and hardships I often face in society and socializing. Performance definitely makes a difference and I fundamentally understand that while I'm an obese depressed autistic, that if I was given these roles, I would do a disservice towards representation as I would never be able to convey on quite the scale and power these two actors have in getting these stories to make you feel and understand anywhere to their level.
I'm very happy to have seen growth and evolution in cinema in depicting the various kinds of people that exist. I've learned a lot not only about others in which I don't identify with, but myself too. It has helped me to become richer in my understanding and sensitivity towards issues I thought I understood and issues I didn't even know existed. When done right, it definitely empowers awareness and positive change. I hope the trends continue and we start seeing less and less caricatures and more authentic diversity represented in media telling true experiences such as with The Whale. Great video. I've watched a handful so far and I'm going to subscribe because I enjoy your insight into the things I've watched so far.
I agree with your point of view. although I will add another dimension - the obese actors and the disabled actors have only a few opportunities to be cast, and when even this opportunities are given to more "classic" looking actors they have them even less, especially as a main characters. Same thing it is with trans-actors - if they will be casted more often as cis-characters than I won't have only problem with cis-actors playing trans-characters.
But would the movie draw the numbers? Having known actors portray some roles may be more important.
Thank-you for saying this!!
I cannot believe the blinded hypocrisy behind saying, "a character needs to be more than their fatness" and then going on to say only fat people should play the role... but I thought we WEREN'T supposed to only judge the person based on their fatness? It doesn't make any sense. I'm someone with a speech disability and straight up, if I got hired, chosen for a role, or anything of the like ONLY because of my disability I'd be fucking pissed and feel like a pawn to make the hirer feel better about themselves or get some tax write off. NO THANK-YOU! These reporters and loud twitter leftists mean well, but they're completely misguided -- because, frankly, they're trying to be heroes to make themselves feel better, instead of letting us fight our own battles. All it takes is to see how many of them are privileged in power, money, or whatever and its clear their passion comes from "guilt of self" and not much else.
I do NOT want to take a role that centres on my disability. I'm too close to it, it would be traumatizing and biased only to my own experience and not that of everyone else with my disability. I mean fuck, even watching the Kings Speech, I didn't care for it and didn't think it was like my experience much, but my brother who has the same disability as me absolutely loved it and felt it captured his life experience really well.
The fact that two people with the same disability can have completely difference experiences in life to where a movie showcasing it reflects differently for each of us, only tells me that leftist don't care about individuals. They care about ideas and stories and turning people into things, but as soon as they have to face real people they're stuck at what to do. Because there is no answer to helping individuals; only groups - but individuals within groups contradict each other all the time, because, ding ding ding, we're human, welcome to the human race.
I would rather someone who doesn't have my disability play the part in a film, than someone who has it. Sure, have them talk to a lot of people who DO have that disability, get a deep well rounded understanding of how we live, talk to a lot of us, see where we differ and where we are the same, and apply what you need into your performance, but this whole "hire X actors to play X" is fucking stupid.
Some of the greatest male leads in straight rom-coms are played by gay men. You don't need to be X to portray X you just have to be a good fucking actor. End of story.
Fuck these people who can't understand how incredibly SIMPLE that is.
I agree with the point that a high profile actor can provide a platform for empathy, and greater visibility to these projects. I disagree though with the closing sentiment, it may be the case that there are not many popular, fat or trans actors, but my question then becomes why? I understand Jared is trying to say that we have to operate in the world we live in, and I agree but we also need to give, fat, trans, and other marginalized group the ability to establish themselves in this scene. I think there's a middle ground here were we need to think about why such groups have not been able to achieve the same stature and how to change that without making perfect the enemy of good. To say that everyone on the other side is being unrealistic is to me a bit of a strawman.
I think while your argument is salient, I wish you had steel manned the other side a bit more. How would you respond to these two points: how does your perspective deal with past actors who've played POC ie: Mickey Rooney in breakfast at Tiffany's? How is this different from portraying trans characters and obese characters? Additionally, there's a question of employment for folks with these identity markers in these fields they traditionally can't get work in. I agree with you ultimately, but would have loved if you had dealt with the most salient parts of their argument.
@dev stuff Hey there buddy, I understand why it's not the same. Other people do not otherwise they would not be making the argument they've been making. Take a chill pill.
Yea I really appreciated Jared’s point b/c it humanizes the other side beyond some half though “meritocracy” argument. But I too think it overlooks why people are upset about the casting. Although, personally I think there’s areas of gray with a lot of this….like how fat (as a man) do you have to be to be too fat to cast v. just being a trans actor in general are completely different struggles. Like this isn’t the only movie this year where there’s gonna be a fat dude in a prominent role, but damnit there might really only be one with a trans character, so I understand more why trans characters should be portrayed by trans actors.
The problem with Mickey Rooney is especially that it's specifically meant to be mocking.
@@tvsonicserbia5140 agreed, i think making that distinction strengthens the argument!
That would be great. I'm wondering if that explanation would require knowledge of casting, the ground reality etc
I expected to like this, and was looking forward to the confirmation bias, but I was not expecting such beauty. Jared, this is just wonderful! Empathy is so underrated.
Underrated? Are you serious?
Don't be cringe. Empathy comes natural to us as socially intelligent apes.
I get your point, but I think there's also an economical argument to be made. Let me explain. Imagine being an actor with actual cerebral palsy. Realisiticaly, how many acting oportunities are you going to have over your entire carreer? Well, not many. Now, imagine if one of those oportunities was instead given to an actor who doesn't have cerebral palsy. If the only roles an actor with cerebral palsy is going to be allowed to play are given instead to actors without cerebral palsy, you're pretty much expelling the former from the market place. Also, it would be interseting to ask ourselves why an actor without cerebral palsy can play a person with cerebral palsy, but we wouldn't buy for a second and actor with cerebral palsy playing a person without it. Obviously, this doesn't apply to every case, that's why it's a complex issue. And that's also why a thin person playing a fat guy is ok, but a white person playing a black guy not so much. Context and history matter. Blackface is wrong not because of the practice itself, but because the practice was the consequence of an existing discrimination that didn't allow black people to be actors.
With Brendan Fraser there's also quite a bit of purity testing going on by critics. Let us be honest. Brendan is not a skinny or thin man any more.
Yeah, and most people with the amount of fat the character presents are not actors, they don't even leave their houses just like the character.
@@Puerco-Potter Exactly! Like, the "problem" (not a problem) isn't even that the dude isn't overweight it's that he isn't overweight enough. Which is ridiculous on so many levels, but especially when as a trend this community allegedly should be in favor of body positivity and accepting people for who they are.
@@Puerco-Potter Doesn't matter, they should have searched the globe, or gotten someone from my 600 pound life and trained them to become an actor because we the fat people have been discriminated against for so long. We deserve to see ourselves up there getting the Oscar and all the praise.
Sorry I could not help myself, I needed some way to mock these insane white leftist middle class women who always seem to be the ones who comes up with these ridiculous complaints. Being fat isn't a character trait or a group identity. I've been almost every size you can imagine, fat, underweight, six pack, normal and I never got a membership card for being any of it.
I get that I'm fat but not this extreme size, I'm more in line with the size Fraser is now, probably 10-15 pounds over, so the argument would be made "you are not in this category" fine. There are plenty of movies about people on the clock, should I get mad about them not getting actors who have a limited amount of time left like I do?
I mean FFS the woman who started the healthy at any size campaign came out and said she regret doing it. To use the phrase as someone: As someone who got beaten up regularly for being fat when I grew up it's nice that more people today look at that as unacceptable behavior and that you should treat people with some level of dignity no matter their size. But we have gone the other way where there are hospitals in the world that doesn't ask the patient to go on the scale because it's triggering for them. First off, GOOD!, if it triggers you to go on the scale then you know that being the size you are isn't healthy. Second if your having an operation it's kind of important to know certain things since your size actually does affect how you react to certain medication dosages. Then again these are the same people who don't think you should assign a gender a birth. And consider it sexist if doctor with any sense is going to treat a woman differently than a man if they come in with stomach pain. Even though the reason the first things you check on a woman in that situation is different should be a VERY easy to understand.
There is a reason why being Karen is a thing, these recent articles about the fat suit is one of the ultimate Karen moves. What's even more Karen is they talk a big game about how great and beautiful it is to be fat, complain when a celebrity gets healthy, then they themselves get thin and start to cry about how they are being attacked online for simply getting healthy.
can we make jared more famous so there world can become a better place?
I'm not even kidding, he manages to articulate these "controversial" thoughts so clearly to where I think most people would be able to understand or even empathize with his point of view.
A Jared Peterson...
I remember feeling this way back when Scarlett was shamed off that project. I said "I guarantee that movie is not going to be made anymore" then about a week later the project was cancelled so the story didn't get told. Overall it was a net loss for the trans community. Now it seems every studio is too scared to make any movies about trans people. Love to see this articulated so well
Always great to hear your voice Jared, keep up the good work!
I'm not someone who cares if an actor has the same characteristics as their character and agree with every point you made. One argument I can see is that there are a limited amount of roles for actors who are, for example, morbidly obese or trans and I can understand frustration that those limited roles are being given to people with a much wider range of possibilities. However, that is an issue with filmmaking as an industry, not the art itself.
I mean theres also the argument that jared brought up. If there is an actor or actress available for the role in the minority of the given role but as a professional they are vastly inferior to the, lets be honest, probably cis/het actor wouldnt it make the movie just worse for the sake of some vague moral purity?
@@50733Blabla1337 let's be honest, even if the obese man is a good actor, Brendan is an excellent actor, he is believe even as George of the Jungle. Maybe there is a great one of kind actor that is morbidly obese, but also, the movie producers won't be casting all around the world for months just to find him.
@Puerco-Potter ye thats my point. Obviously having these chances is something you need to become a better actor but railing against aaa productions not taking the risk of casting unknown actors in leading roles is naive at best imo
Came here to say this. I don't even really think it's a problem because Jared's view is great, it's just somewhat muddled by being posed as a counterargument to this criticism. I think the problems of diversity in casting are better included in the conversation around nepotism in Hollywood. It's not like Scarlet Johansen is an equivalent actor to Daniel Day Lewis, so she can play an Asian trans man better than anyone else on Earth. It's just because she happens to be the actress cast in the highest grossing films. I'm not saying she was cast due to nepotism, I'm saying that studio casting decisions are a different conversation than one about actors performance.
Jared presented a good argument for allowing actors to portray such characters, but even Jared knows that an actor has limitations and cannot possibly perform all roles. Jared conveniently left out race from the discussion. Sometimes it's best to cast actors who are from those groups. As for Scarlett Johansson being considered to portray a trans man, she did not get the part and it was probably because of a weak performance. Hillary Swank's performance as Brandon Teena was very good back in the day, but why not cast a trans man today? This IS 2023 and Hollywood should be casting those roles to actors from those groups when the performance is convincing and award worthy.
I sgree, though to suss out one nuance, I believe the reason people demand obese actors play obese characters (or diabled actors for characters with disabilities, Asian actors to play Asian characters, etc.) is that Hollywood discrim9inates against such actors (or is perceived to do so depending on the trtait at issue). Hollywood does not discriminate against "kind" actors or "funny" actors. In the process of adcocating for more roles for actors in those marginalized groups it does seem some people have gotten a little confused and so the messaging does suggest, as you say, that it's about the insights such an acxtor would bring to that character (in which case other atributes become increasingly relevant along with the one that gets them marginalized).
Thank you Jared for this video. I learned a lot.
I remember debating the situation of "actors not sharing the elements of their character with a friend." we tried to get to the bottom of the phenomenon and in the end came to the conclusion that perhaps our stances are influenced by how we view the phenomenon, be it from "the art" (which actor can best portray the creator's vision) and economics (employment opportunity for actors who do share the elements of the character)
I still have much to learn
Makes me think of Wesley Snipes, John Leguizamo, Patrick Swayze, Robin Williams, and Dustin Hoffman. All who played roles (of varying portrayals) but still broke the mythos of masculinity
This is exceptionally articulate and I think this video should be circulated widely. Excellent stuff!
Tom Hanks in Philadelphia and Hillary Swank in Boys Don't Cry are two of the most moving and incredible performances Ive ever seen. While I think its great that films get diverse actors that can authentically replicate an identity, I sincerely believe that a roll should be given to the who can give the best performance.
11:55 elegant point. good art conveys truths in many layers.
authentic experiences as source material should be the goal. and with acting in particular a non-minority playing a minority would only widen the "bridge to empathy" for other non-minority fans of their and mere lived experience doesn't qualify you to authentically act on film.
Would it be fair to say the katie couric media won't be satisfied until all movies are just documentaries, then?
Great video
Fantastic perspective Jared, you couldn't be more correct.
Such nuance and care with framing an argument and giving it proper depth
id approach the problem from the other way. Trans actors would have been rejected from Holywood over and over because there are hardly a wealth of bankable trans actors, nevermind ones that will take up the deal and have their schedule open; and I think that's something people would like to change. Of course the fallacy made is that that somehow makes the system *better* or something. Or that *fat* is an identity akin to gender/race. When profit motive is the #1 driver, legitimate criticism of inauthentic representation makes us forget that it's not inherently malicious to challenge our empathy by writing what you don't personally experience. It's just how momey intersects with it all.
so while the examples are pretty iconic and hard to contest, I still remember the Green Book winning Best picture in 2019 despite being like a solid 8/10 popcorn flick at best.
A tangential point: "When taken at face value the notion that we should listen to minorities can be translated as listening to minorities that agree with me." To paraphrase Lindsay Ellis.
Glad you're planning on getting the Harry Potter game. Would love your opinion on the current controversy.
Soy face in the thumbnail would have netted you 100K views
Jared, I'm wondering if you have ever heard of the book "An Inconvenient Indian" by Thomas King? It deals with the stereotypes of Indians/natives (whatever you want to call us), portrayed in media, and how media uses ethnicity to score (social justice) points. It also details the history of genocide and broken treaties that took place ever since colonization, but I feel the first part is more appropriate to what you discuss here.
Did the internet just forget that Brendan Frasier spent a decade as a fat guy? He couldn't work, his wife left, his fans turned in him and people made fun of him for being fat and useless. Like, he wasn't whale big, but come on. He was perfect for the role.
And he has the acting chops the onscreen gravitas, glad you mentioned his absence and comeback
More of these are the definition of welcome. Great video.
Lucille Ball, when preparing for the role Stone Pillow, lived as a homeless person on the streets of NYC and lived the experience first hand. It was one of her best roles and did a great job in highlighting the struggles homeless people deal with.
I'm a member of the LGBT community. As a gay man I have no issues with a straight actor portraying a gay man, as long as their portrayal doesn't feed into sterotyping tropes and adavnces empathy towards my community. Should Neil Patrick Harris only play gay roles and be excluded from playing a straight man because he hasn't lived that experience?
Excellent points. Neil Patrick Harris is such a great example of ability
It sounds like some people want most movies to be quasi-documentaries. They just want to watch people who have the condition or identity perform the role, rendering the need for acting minimal, regardless of the quality of the end product.
Damn, this was a beautiful video. Thank you Jared!
Jared! Can you do one on the menu? Will love your thoughts on it
Always amazing to hear you Jared 🔥
Finally a voice of reason in the chaos.
If you want to learn about obese people's struggles told by actual obese people that's what documentaries are for, but I'm willing to bet if you ask people complaining about brendan fraser if they've ever seen any of these documentaries 95% would say no. Most people care about things just enough to tweet about them, anything that would take more than two minutes of their time they won't do.
Miss your voice and opinions Jared. Nice to see you still making good content. Keep up the good work!
This video is a killer. Great work!
Movies are also visual. I don't know how I would feel about an audio book in a similar situation.
You can make yourself fat and you can make yourself skinny. A fat suit is not even close to the same thing as black/brown face. The fact that its a straight man playing a gay man is the only argument i would even begin to hear out but i still think its a bad take. Its called "acting".
Mayor of Bagtown
Fraser is a closet Queen. He walked out on his wife and kids in 2007 with a young guy he met on The Mummy 3 and brought him home. Then he divorced Afton before she could out him and discarded the boy. Why do you think he paid all that HUSH money?
Acting is acting, not being. Thats why is a beautiful art we all like to admire.
"only aliens should play aliens" ;)
acting serves as a wonderful tool to step into someone others shoes. To experience another consciousness a different role.
Art and games lets us feel different selves. Human can play animals, women can play man, children can play Zombies. The treasure in art is that they are pokeballs for conscious states. They communicate possessing another soul.
Except the problem is that aliens don’t exist whilst these people do exist
Only criminals should do crime on the big screen.
Some of your arguments about empathy bridging are compelling, however it seems like you're disregarding the fact that actors/actresses who are fat or trans or disabled exist and do not have as many job opportunities as more mainstream actors. A thin actor can wear a fat suit to play a character written as fat, but fat actors are not routinely cast as characters who aren't explicitly written as fat.
Glib presence…
😆😆😆ya, exactly what I was thinking.
If they’re pissed about This guy in a fat suit, the Baron Harkanin guy is going to make their heads Explode 😆😆😆
As always on point! thanks for sharing you thoughts.
'Replace actors with people who don't have to act' - documentary lobby? 🤣
Hear me out: what about the identity of the "actor"? Why does [fill in identity] identity trump the identity of the actor?
the voice of jared. missed hearing it.
I think the whole thing perfectly fits into the contemporary (pretty liberal capitalist) problem of enforcing identities where we should enforce subjectivities and forms of individual and collective subjectivation. Apart from that which I won't further expand here, the idea that a fat man only can interpret a fat man, a trans woman a trans woman and so forth is pretty stale also because we're basically saying that we don't want new stories, new contents, new characters to share (in order to foster empathy and comprehension through identification and all the other processes between a character and the spectator). We just want to put people on screen basically talking of themselves.
It's something that in very perverted way is happening to the basic cradle of story-telling in general which is books. In books, not just the top shelves, but half of the shelves in general at this point have been colonized by various form of first-person stories in which at best the main character doesn't share with the author the name and some features. The Nobel prize to Annie Ernaux, for as deserved as it may have been (I can't say, her books fell flat and void on me), was the tombstone of this process of selfie-fication of literature in the Western world.
Agree to disagree. Your points can easily apply to blackface actors regardless of the history and origins of the practice. So long as an established white actor spends a ton time and effort with research, dedicates himself to the process and in the end, puts on blackface to go play a disabled black gay trans woman.......It would be legitimate right? Its not like there's tons of real black gay trans diabled actors out there anyway. Right?
Also, way to be a trans ally by not doing the simple act of avoiding to play one game. Small acts buddy. If skipping a single game out of solidarty is too much..... We're not allies are we? But then again... are you an ally? Or is the term simply a scam to shift focus from solving systemic issues by turning it into personal identity?
Still will stay subscribed though. I like your ability to articulate your thoughts and ideas.
Hey Jared, great video, my only criticism is that you kept referring to Brendan *Frasier* and not Brendan *Fraser*. I like tossed salad and scrambled eggs as much as the next guy, but in regards to this topic, Frasier has definitely left the building.
When it comes to the argument of representation in film I agree with 98% of your arguments but I still nonetheless hold the opposite opinion that for most roles that a talented actor can be found it would be preferable to find someone with the lived experience because Hollywood has far too long been an exclusive club of very specific types of people and opening these roles to people that share that lived experience in my opinion vastly broadens the culture of what hollywood is which in my opinion will lead to more of these stories being told not less.
@devstuff2576 Obviously because the actor is the person directly representing the lived experience. Everyone else offscreen is just a supporting role not representing anyone but themselves.
What's this? Nuance and consideration on the internet?! But how can that be???
Great thoughts and very important to hear for many people.
I wanted to say that I agree with the idea that anyone can play any role if they're capable of doing it justice. But I stipulate a caution:
There is an issue behind movies, which is the movie industry. This is not a question of an actor's ability to play a role, but rather an actor's ability to *OBTAIN* a role. Long held prejudices and biases have kept minority populations from being able to obtain roles that they could easily fulfill. We have a long history of this; black roles being played by white actors in black face, yellow face (Mickey Rooney comes to mind), when suitable actors from their actual backgrounds existed.
Obviously some exceptions to this exist, for example, the Jazz Singer was actually an attempt at progress by the main actor (which I believe is a movie that would more viscerally portray the point you're making in this video.)
Instead of asking yourself whether or not it's fine if an actor can play a role (it generally is), you should ask yourself what actors need work? I believe it's a failing at recognizing the movie industry as a work of labor, with actors as skilled workers.
* I wanted to add a caveat to the above.
The ability to pretend (physically or in mind) to be someone else is essential towards empathy. We draw upon our own human experiences in order to understand others, and acting creates a simulated (hopefully safe) human experience for those we have not experienced ourselves.
To play the part is an effort to understand another human being, and there should be few bars on that freedom of experience.
The above is a weak argument for MOVIES though, it is a strong argument for THEATER. The fact is the majority of people will never play a part in a movie. While a movie can be an important experience, it is limited in its necessity for its audience to understand and participate, it is a medium for a message. On the other hand communal theater is something almost *anyone* can participate in, and by doing so it engages and necessitates understanding of the character for the experience of being an actor.
We often forget that acting is for everyone, and that acting is a community service.
If economic justice is the priority in casting people then shouldn’t we look along class lines and put poor people in fat suits? Sure, a fat person could become a rich celebrity if they were cast, but someone from a poor country, if given the same opportunity, could feed their family. Is the former really our aim? That’s the Justice worth yelling on Twitter about (not you specifically, just the general notion that economic Justice means specifically boosting the careers of people of certain identity markers)?
@@JaredBauer I would say that most actors already are poor people in fat suits.
Joke aside, my friend from community theater actually did do summer work at Disneyland to pay for her tuition.
But I think what you've said brings up some very interesting questions about social pressure and survivorship bias.
Is there a way to apply social pressure in a positive way? If so, is it worth it? Is the actual goal of social pressure explicit? Or is the value in social pressure far more broad and less readily apparent?
Are those who complain on twitter simply deluding themselves into believing they are a positive influence, and are instead damaging?
On the flipside we also have to ask ourselves about the validity of an actor's performance in movies. We can easily point out all the times that an actor's performance has had a positive influence on our lives, but what ideas counter that notion?
If we want to show the good that comes with performance, we also have to recognize the bad.
When we see a performance that we label as exceptional, are we simply validating our own biases? Do we believe we've succeeded without a comparison to see how we've failed or can do better?
*By going down this route we are asking about the nature of making movies itself.* If you want to find the answer about making movies you have to look at it for what it is, a product of continual labor over years which requires skill development, education, experience, resources, time, opportunity, manpower, cooperation, capability, creativity and persistence.
I wouldn't say it's about dividing across class lines and forcibly picking individual participants. It's about understanding the system that produces the movies we make and what comes of it.
Are movies influential, a product of society, or something else? Can we utilize that which degrades society, such as blackface, and use it to give humanity to a subjugated people?
I'm not so much interested in individual identities and actor's performances like these specific Twitter users are, and am more interested in the societal forces at play.
I'd definitely love to hear your take because I'm sure you have great insight on it.
This would also exclude anyone physically incapable of surviving the insane world of movie making.
Some of your best work yet, my guy
Yeah it's art, people forgot that I guess. I remember when people got mad with Jared Leto for Dallas buyers club and I was like dude...a movie is an artistic representation of something, grow up. The Whale is the first movie I've seen in a long time that has like literally changed my life. Aronofsky knows what's up.
Nailed it.
That was a breath of fresh explanation.
Interesting video! I am interested to know what you think about actors playing different races. For a while, there was a rumor that Leo Dicaprio is going to play Rumi a middle eastern mystic and poet. Do think the same argument applies here as well, that white actors help the audience sympathize with characters of other races?
I’m curious about this too. It seems like there are some relevant similarities between playing people of different races, which Jared doesn’t really address here. I don’t imagine that Jared would defend the position that white people should portray black characters, like Robert Downey Jr. satirically donning blackface in Tropic Thunder? So, where’s the line drawn? What are the relevant differences? These questions are asked in good faith. Genuinely curious.
@@nich_pk There's no single line but it depends on the culture and context. The issue with white people playing black people comes from the history between, and even particularly the history of that act. In a world where black people lived had lived as equal citizens in the US from the beginning, and there was never any institutionalized racism it might theoretically even be ok for actors to portray even in blackface.
Edit: Of course roots of colonialism go much further than the United States, this was a huge oversimplification, but I hope you get the point.
@@tvsonicserbia5140 what if they can pass for certain race. The reality is famous actors are going to help that story reach more audiences and perform better at the box office.
Im from India and Ben Kingsley an English man (Indian father) owned the role of Gandhi
I think that empathy point is "why would you think non-fat people could benefit from a fat story if you don't think a non fat actor could play a fat character"
It's to say it's impossible for people to get the right understanding, but if that's your guiding principle, who is your audience for the fat story? Only fat people should be watching it?
Jared, I can't express enough how much I love this video. Thank you.
RJ Mitte played a character with Cerebral palsy on Breaking Bad, he has Cerebral palsy but not as severe as his character. How much like the character do you need to be, for it to be acceptable to play them?
I was about 8 years old in 1994 when The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert was made, I had no understanding of drag queens or trans. My connection into the story was as simple as I lived in Alice Springs, but themes of the story still had an impact on me and my views of the world, even though the actors were cis and even though I had no Idea what that meant.
Actors having to carry the same identity markers as the characters they portray defeats the very purpose of the art itself. It's called *acting* ffs
But here is my problem with it. I am from india. Here , there are no trans actor in movie industries. If trans characters will be played by cis actors and cis characters will be played by cis actors, then what should trans actors play? Transgender trees in the background!?
The whole point of cinema is story telling. And what we get out of those stories depends on how well they're told.
If a handicapped, accurately gendered or sexually oriented actor is available to play the part of that sort of person, and they're a good fit for the role otherwise, great. But what if no such person is available or none are right for the part? Should we patronize whomever meets the physical criteria and put them in, letting the production suffer?
We've made good progress getting out of the whites-only trap in films and theater. Let's just continue on our current path, support training actors of all stripes, cast according to best fit for the role, and let them tell the stories they're qualified to tell.
Amazing episode Jared. Wow, this is good stuff!
You do realize that the majority of excellent actors are fat or unattractive right? Like, the reason movies have bad acting is the resistance to cast authentically over movie stars, not the other way around. Brendan Fraser is only famous in the first place because he was hot, not his mastery of “the craft.” It would be very easy to find an overweight actor who can act as well as him
Great Video Jared!
Only allowing people that identify as characters will prevent us to tell morally devious character stories.
It would be the death of criticism in cinema.
this is getting out of hand. last month, here in my country, a play was interrupted and boycotted because a trans-character was played by a non-trans. This is not fighting for equality or representation, it's censorship!
Brazil?
@@shanihandel9621 portugal
Jared, perhaps you could elaborate a bit more on separating your support for the produced piece of media itself vs support for the creators. I generally agree that a tastefully well done piece of film that creates a more empathetic point of view is more important than whether the actors themselves have lived the experience themselves directly.
However, I took note at the very end of your interest in playing the recent Harry Potter video game, and I’d be genuinely curious to your reaction to fellow TH-camr/twitch streamer Jessie Gender’s take on JK Rowling and arguments among the Harry Potter fandom over whether one can purchase a piece of medium that directly supports someone who is openly transphobic can be ethically justified if one simply clarified that they don’t agree with the creators transphobia sentiments.
Regardless of your opinion on this matter, I think you of all people would be able to offer up a nuanced and intelligent insight on this topic and I’d be curious on how you would tackle such a topic.
Cheers.
In all fairness a part of such critics arguments is understandable because the job of acting is traditionally reserved for good or at the minimum aesthically indifferent looking people whereas Fat people are traditionally seen as noticibly bad looking, so maybe thats why they would prefer seeing an obese actor gaining recognition and adoration for a job traditionally reserved for slim people. However they fail or atleasg forget that this adoration can be found in other fat or obese actors who have been in Cinema, albeit in lesser numbers but there are many.
Thanks Jared: many people believes that this kind of movie can cure fatphobia, as Parasite or Brokeback mountain can cure inequality and homophobia.
I could listen to this guy talk about carpets.
Why are people talking about being fat as if it's an inherent trait, like race, sex, or sexuality?
as much as i agree with most of the points made here, and don’t think brendan was miscast, i do struggle with some aspects.
1. with films like priscilla queen of the desert, seeing these actors known for their portrayals of traditionally masculine characters in roles like a drag queen/trans women may be impactful to many in the general public however the fact remains that opportunities for trans women in the industry are still extremely limited. while this may have been an enlightening experience to you and many of the other cis heterosexual men out there, young trans people still aren’t seeing REAL representation of their identity which you pointed out was so important
2. when does this portrayal of an actor turning into someone they are not become caracarure? you made the point that actors for a role where the person is fat should be considered for more than their external appearance however does this extend to other physical characteristics like race?
anyway great video keep it up
In the sea of absurd opinions pushed by, what I believe to be, critics that have nothing of interest to say and try to be provocative to appear intellectual (the definition of a charlatan), you, Jared, are the only one that can bring sanity into this world.
Man, I am incredibly happy of finding about your channel. I really stopped watching wisecrack, after you left. Keep up the good work.
Same here!
Only scientists should play scientists... Only soldiers that fought in WW2 should play soldiers that fought in WW2.... ETC.
Great arguments
So if I write a novel, should my story only be about a Canadian Metis man, average build, brown hair and eyes? Ridiculous to "gatekeep" storytelling.
A man helps 1k PPL see, but PPL just want to bitch about how he doesn't share the ideology as them. Have you considered maybe that he doesn't share your ideology? Mr. Beast isn't out to replace the system, he just made a business model of helping people while doing business.
My personal observation is that the PPL who bitch and whine about the actions of those who take action are rarely action-takers themselves.
Being a leftist myself, I really need to say that leftists really need to make more space in their heads for PPL who may not share their world view. MLK said we shouldn't be judged based on the color of my skin, but the content of my character. But what's happening right now judging on their ideology instead of the content of their character.
if a person can only empathize with "the real deal" and can't get past the suit, how empathetic are they really? "show me someone who's really so fat that they're about to die from it!" Sure, that outlook is not adjacent to fetishization or exploitation *at all* .
For me, as someone who's not from the US, this notion that total progress just suddenly arrived and now everyone better have the right ideas, otherwise they're not just stupid, they're evil, is... obscene. Twitter echochambers have impacted people's view about themselves and the world so much that there seems to be no end to this circus in sight. no offence, hopefully, but the US has always seemed like a country without a clue about anyone else, but still trying to teach "the right way". now it's just an absurd display, with this shit pointed inwards and outwards alike.
Preach!
Sooo, no more serial killer movies?
Well said.
Loved this video. I have nothing to add that you haven't already addressed in this excellent video. Al I can do is thank you and leave this comment to appease the democracy destroying YT-algorithm
I completely understand this view Jared, there is a lot of artistic and humanistic value in actors without the sed identity portrayed that role's identity. but the argument all the media and culture war portrays is 100% about economics. In a world in which money is a resource in order to survive, people are supporting different types of minority actors so they can be portrayed more realistically and be accepted into the industry.
I see your argument lacking the counterpoints of going back toward standard actors of the past, and not giving new actors a chance. For example in Mr. beast, this is reducing people's lives into gameshow antics. Dissolving the dignity and privacy any person has away, as long as they are willing to get on camera, say thank you and praise the indvidual who gave them the opportunity. When money stands in the way of living, then art is only availble to those who are truley free. the rich
Fantastic video!
Hi Jared, I think I disagree with you on this.
Even though you make a good case about empathy for the casting choice, it is also about the control of narrative over somebody else's experience that doesn't sit well with me. Also the fact that, a needy fat actor could also have been a choice for employment in this film (although I absolutely adored Brendan's performance).
The defense of casting choice could also have been that, the actor....who has made a household name for himself by maintaining a specific kind of body for years has come now to a physical shape that is completely opposite of what he embodied before. That must have made him feel some type of way for years now, and we know how intensely actors and models go through their body image issues and that could have given Brendan some kind of perspective to play the role of a fat person.
I don't know.
Also I feel there was really a lack of conversation in the whale discourse about suicide ideation in the play...Like how self hate completely deforms one's self image and that is somehow exacerbated by religious ideologies.
Fantastic video. You are calm and compassionate but also surgical in your take down of woke ideology.
Katharine Hepburn won 4 oscars for personify 4 different human beings. Accting is personify, if you put a gay person in a gay role she or he is not acting, is not adding value to the role. The same logic should therefore be applied to a psicopath or a nazi. Intolerance is the unwillingness or refusal to tolerate or respect opinions or beliefs contrary to one's own. And an intolerant is one that cannot respect a profesional actor doing her/his job.
Then Fraser, being gay and playing his 7th gay character, should not be nominated for this role. He isn't acting.