Of course they hate continuity. Current writers for established franchises generally have no respect for the work done by people who came before them and those working in modern comics are the bottom of the barrel. There are executive mandates to keep Spider-Man a Peter Pan knock off and writers who publish crap that reads like fan fiction they wrote in Jr. High School. The sad truth is that they let continuity go to crap and no one wants to be the one to fix it because everyone else is continually breaking it.
I wonder how many current stories are going to experience (or already have experienced) what I call the Law & Order: SVU effect. See, the L&O franchise brags about having plots "ripped from the headlines". The thing is Special Victims Unit seems to do a bad job at it. They try so hard to rip off current events that the episode is badly done and soon becomes dated (similar to shows and movies that use memes). You watch an SVU rerun and either think, "Oh, yeah, that was a thing that happened..." or, "This might be based on something that was going on at the time, but I sure can't figure out what it was!"
You'd think the Communists masquerading as Marvel Comics' "creatives" would know better. Controlling the historical narrative was CRITICAL to the Party taking and holding onto power in the Soviet Union.
Correct. In fact, that's what Dr. Manhattan did when he removed key events in the DCU during Flashpoint. And as a result, he couldn't see ANYTHING but darkness in the future when the DCU was altered into the New 52
The fact that Black Panther is a king and now an emperor, has been married and has YET to sire an HEIR or even have an APPRENTICE, to continue the line of BPs when he himself has almost died several times, is CRIMINAL. He’s a grown ass man now, years older than Spiderman, and every other issue he’s trying to figure out why he should be king and unworthy he is of the throne is maddening continuity wise
I know cannon and continuity can get lost or an error, or a retcon will happen because comics exist for a long time things will get lost. But continuity is the most important thing to any type of media.
How back much further. In the 90s the whole company fractured into 4 separate divisions (X, Spider, Av, and Edge). They all had different editors and stuff happening between the lines didn’t affect the others. Then came Heroes Reborn. Afterwards they tried to bring it back together but sales were so shitty they brought in Quesada for MK. Once he became EIC it was more creator driven than editorial for a good 5 years. They actively avoided getting bogged down in continuity. Then they started all the crossovers for cash grabs.
As sad as it is to say that you right as soon as a marble was brought by Disney is it was dead and they they definitely killed Marvel in 2015 with the all new all different Marvel that was something nobody asked him to do at all.
Wow. So what I took away from Tom’s “it’s fiction” quote is they’re publicly telling us if Marvel editorial and execs don’t care about their brands/line, why should we? And he’s right, I’m actually more happy saving my money these days then to give it to anything Marvel comics is publishing these days
Back when I started reading Marvel comics in the 80s I thought it was so cool that I had 25 years of history to catch up on. Some of my favorite books were Marvel Tales and Classic X-Men
The fact, Ted Kord Blue beetle coming back to life due to an editorial error, is not the biggest news in terms of "look how a comic editorial staff goofed up" in either a positive or negative life is wild to me The reason things like that dont get attention is because of the insane amount of malicious changes to source material that we all have no energy to even enjoy goofy mistakes because it happens all the time now but on purpose. It's also being done in a way that in some of this stuff, is changing the concept of what makes the character what they are but it's not even deconstruction because there is no redemption
Well remember you know DC decided to do the new 52 after the events of flashpoint nobody told him to do that and like I've been saying for a long time retconning without a purpose will always kill your stories and the future for your stories and that's why I always said ever since flashpoint came and they brought Barry Allen back after flash rebirth it was the end of BC comic books and they haven't been able to recover since
@@treymykel thats so true tho new 52 hurt DC so bad, that when they did DC rebirth which was a a good effort at what people like, sales didn't go up much because of how they only associated DC with the new 52 I'm a green lantern fan so I'm like the only guy eating consistently ok lol ..... we payed our dues after the parallax saga I also feel like new 52 might have worked out on a better note if doomsday clock didn't get delayed so absurdly far out
@EvandroACruz what ? ??? ...... nah man he litterly recounts being shot in the head for his cam therapy session in heroes in crisis .... also why even bring him back so far in randomly? It's because it was an editorial error and then later a retcon Sorry I shouldn't be so confident but I'm pretty sure I remember that being the timeliness because it c onfused everyone around that time I think in the sense of it was so random and then explained as being a wiped situation from existence (being shot by maxwell lord) is weird and I do think the retconn happened after the mistake of putting him back in. I think we both are right on this
Mark Gruenwald (rest his soul) was a stickler for continuity and is certainly rolling over in his grave over Brevoort's comments. Continuity has always mattered to me, and a big reason why Marvel used to resonate so strongly with me. It's no coincidence that their current disregard for canon is directly proportional to my lack of interest in the current Marvel universe.
There were times when Gru would use a character in continuity but get the characterization wrong, e.g. Firebrand going from anti-establishment radical to (in the story where he and lots of other villains were gunned down by Scourge) a go-between for villains and employers. No explanation what happened to change him that much. But I'll say this for Mark: at least he was aware of all these characters existing and would use them in his stories while *usually* not making them look bad. That's more than lots of other writers did and are doing now.
They don't care about cannon - just like they don't want to know or care about history. It gets in the way of their lackadaisical approach. It's just too difficult to 1. keep up with 2. be nuanced about or 3. Cleverly structure stories around core unmovable points. The last 5-15 years most recently have been seen largely as idealogical output ... but for the most part it's really down to a lack off care, ability and talent!
It's like the people in charge of any large media companies don't understand that fans like to analyze and contextualize the stories that they're fans of. The whole "shut up and consume" meme fits.
Exactly but they also trained a lot of people nowadays to be like who cares about the continuity It is just storytelling Well then what's the point of being invested in it and you see those same people are invested in the stories
@@treymykel Agreed. “Who cares about continuity? It’s just storytelling,” only works if it’s a one-off work without any definite connection to anything, like Grimms’ tales, Aesop’s fables, Anansi tales, or a campfire story. It fails completely when applied to a continuing saga like most comic book series. Shoot, SpongeBob SquarePants, which is an episodic series, even has some continuity (seen when the whelk invasion episode mentioned the time SpongeBob got the suds).
As a child finding comics... getting back issues to understand the lore and continuity was a major reason I loved comics so much and went back week after week buying back issues ..it felt like a favorite book or show that never ends..its just keeps going ....I would be aonexcired when a writer toed in something from years a ago or a charecter ..or a plot line that was forgotten and drop a new story out of it and I feel today's comics have lost that
With any fandom continuity, lore, canon keeps the dedicated fans invested for the long ride and the dedicated are the one's who tend cheerlead and bring in the new fans. Using characters just as skin suits to whatever story they want I can't see that working long term. What if and elseword is for that, but it shouldn't be the main direction, only a fun side gig.
Why would he do that? Because the Writers and Execs at Disney told him. And he wants to be able to keep working and feeding himself. He's just an editor, he's not one of the Hollywood elite.
@@sith7183I always did! Qusada was a major Fig and SJW. Even before the huge Woke decline of Marvel. I would say…. Right around the time Ice-Man was turned Gay.
If the creators don't care don't see why anyone else should. It's why i quit years ago. Happy to just read my old stuff from back when they actually had standards. No professionalism anymore.
So, what Tom Brevoort is saying is that if a writer suddenly decided to retcon Spider-Man as having been an alien or a cyborg all along, then it’s perfectly okay because continuity doesn’t matter?
Good dialogue. Unfortunately it’s a topic that I stopped caring about with Marvel some time ago. I love reading old back issues of good story arcs that I missed in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Otherwise, I don’t read many current mainstream timelines. I like a good short comic book run of 5-12 issues or a one-shot. FF Full Circle and Avengers: War Across Time are 2 of the best “modern” story arcs that I’ve read.
I think maybe it’s because I’ve been reading comics for 40 years but my biggest pet peeve is the creator turnover. Ever 3 or 4 issues there is a different artist. There is little effort in providing uniformity to the visual continuity. Going from Chechetto to Messina or Frigeri to Noto is very jarring. The message I get from this is “we don’t care enough about this series to schedule artists in advance or invest in a long term creative team. We just want a front loaded debut issue.” Sorry, I’m not paying $6 a book for that level of commitment.
My feeling is there wouldn’t be as much turnover if they’d vet people first. They’ll assign someone who doesn’t give a flip about the characters or the continuity (despite there being long-time fans who have the drive, talent, knowledge, and desire to write the books) and only wants to fill the series with their self-insert Mary Sues/Gary Stews. Then the bad writer puts out bad stories and the series bombs, so they have to replace that writer and start all over again. This wouldn’t happen if they’d hire good writers and not go, “Let’s get this person off tumblr/Twitter!”
@@karaoconnoraliasraidra I meant more the artists. The writers don’t switch around that much. The newly released Ultimate line has had 6 different artists on 3 of the books in less than 5 months.
@@bradfrederick1135 Oh, gotcha! Switching art styles so much would be distracting. One time I saw art of Tim Drake (Robin) so bad it looked like one of those “Artists draw ABC character in XYZ style” pages people make for laughs.
Marvel started going to hell once Quesada took over. You saw a lack of editorial over sight and lack of appreciation for continuity going back to the early 2000's. Ignoring continuity was done on purpose. It was a way for Marvel to convince certain writers ( independent and writers from the U.K.) like Bendis,Millar, and others to work on the books. Granted there was some well written books and storylines during the early 2000,s. But the writers back then were actually good and talented Over a decade Marvel has really tried to convince its readers that continuity doesn't matter. So once Disney did take over and Quesada started bringing in untalented hacks. Then Marvel fell off a cliff.
My suggestion is an Avengers Spotlight book. Reprint the first meeting between Character "A" & Character "B", then have a 2nd story that expands on relationship with a behind the scenes villain that is new to readers. This villain can be built up every issue.
This why mangas always will be superior to the Big 2. In the mangas continuity truly matters. The characters grow up,evolve and have closure. Brevoort it's so lazy to try to fix the huge damage that Krakoa Era did to X-Men books in the past 5 years. The entire X-men continuity was fucked up and we had a complete bastardization of the entire cast of characters. Marvel is too damn arrogant and stupid to reboot Krakoa out of the main continuity so the only way it's just ignore all this shit and move on. This just confirm that From The Ashes relaunch is DOA already.
Well, there's one upside to this "no continuity" approach... They can undo "One More Day" and returning characters back to their original forms. Let's see if they really mean that continuity is unimportant then!
This is partly why Manga and Manwa have gained such popularity. You start at Issue #1 and go till it ends. Depending on series, they can have spin-offs, sequel series or even generational series, but its all easy to follow. Compare that to most anything Marvel or DC and you get lost just by trying to follow a single character as they go on multiple adventures at once.
I wish Malibu's Ultraverse had never been bought out by the Marvel machine. Ultraforce, Rune, Mantra, and the original Exiles were more enjoyable and compelling for myself than anything Marvel or DC puts out these days.
Honestly if you want my advice I say focus on ultimate Spider-Man and the other new ultimate books and that’s about it everything else not so much in my opinion.
@@DarthDread-oh2neWhy do you care what they think? Their opinions are duly noted but they only matter to them. Not us. In the meantime, we will continue to indulge ourselves and if they don't like it, well, who gives a damn what they think, right? Keep calm, and carry on good sir.
Continuity at Marvel seems to have gone to hell the moment Mark Gruenwald passed, apparently he was really on the ball with the Continuity. I remember that seeing that they've been dealing with Writers not keeping track of what the others are doing and the messing up eachother's work because they had the same character doing different things at the same time. And what they are doing now is "Only Nerds care, F'em! Write whatever we just need a book on the shelf this month"
Invincible is probably one of the best books I've ever written. Watching Mark progressively become older and better with time shows how he gets better over time. Characters becoming stagnant or staying one age forever pauses progression. Edit: I definitely meant to say read, not written 😅 I can't take that credit. All praise goes to Robert Kirkman.
Immortal Hulk #41 The Thing says it has been 13 years since the cosmic rays and there's a picture of his 2nd life's bar mitzvah. Every character he's crossed over with in those early comics have also had 13 years pass.
@@themultiversalmagpie7827 problem is they’d make shows out of some stupid Dan Slott story instead of using good ones because that’s the logic these days.
It's sad that someone- much less someone in a pretty high position at a major comic book publisher- is acting like wanting to respect canon and continuity is a hot take. Haven't they learned anything from DC, where fans are confused all the time because no one knows what's canon or not? I've heard that back in the day Marvel had a "No-prize" which was awarded to true believers who spotted an error in an issue and sent in a message about it. There were editor notes apologizing for errors and even plotlines meant to resolve continuity issues (sometimes badly done, but they tried). It's no coincidence that the classic issues made by people who gave a flip are generally better than what the "So freaking what?" people are limping to the barn with today. Hmm, limping to the barn... I just had a flashback to "The Great Snail Race" (AKA one of the episodes my aunt and I hate because SpongeBob was so mean to poor Gary). There SpongeBob was bragging about how great his racing snail was and there poor Gary was looking ready to collapse from exhaustion and mistreatment. That's how some people in the industry are today: bragging about what they've put out when the product is a mess. I was just telling a friend that I might get the new Thunderbolts TPB (the one with a roster that’s clearly meant as an advertisement for the upcoming MCU film) because even though it was lacking in some areas, others weren't bad (It's sad that, "It was okay," is now the benchmark for buying comics, but you know). I noted, “This is one of those teams that has potential and could do cool stuff in the future, so we'll probably never hear about it again.”
Continuity at marvel means nothing now, because these new writers and editors are lazy and don't give a shit. I loved silver/bronze and marvel up until 2010 when we used to get footnotes (where readers could go back and check out pass issues for info) and concrete Continuity.
@@EvandroACruz Sometimes they even brag about it like it’s something to be proud of, like, “I purposely avoided reading the earlier stories so I could make my own story!” So what you’re saying is you were too lazy and self-centered to learn about the characters and their backgrounds, and now you’re expecting us to be proud of you for not giving a flip. Terrific. :-/
I think the reason they retell the old stories is because the Big Two believe their audience ages out every 7 to 10 years. They don't care about long, long time readers.
At some point we have to find that the entire marvel universe since giant size xmen 1 have been nothing but a simulation in the minds of the xmen as they are held in the pits of krakoa as their psychic energies feed the island. cant wait for the whole mu to go back to the 70's and try again. however considering the lack of writing talent what's the point as they will just screw it up.
Every single time they attacked Continuity Marvel lost more readers. Its not like we haven't heard this before - we've heard it a couple of times from the late 90s, onwards. I hated it way back then, because it felt 'lesser' for it - now it doesn't matter, because I don't read Marvel - a mix because Continuity is not present WHILE all that shit they have put into the books means the only stuff they have kept is their crap agenda canon. Its this utterly bizarre mix of completely opposite extreme's but at the polar opposite of what I'd accept in those extremes.
I love drawing and reading comics. The two biggest hurdles I have with American comics is the Canon is so wishy-washy and even trying to buy the comics is a hunt if you miss the release. Compared to manga, manga is so consumer friendly it's dumb.
I've said it a thousand times. I jumped into Spider-Man at Web of #83, and immediately got the sense that I was reading part of a story that stretched all the way back to to 1963. He was mature, battle-worn and experienced, which made his boyish quips mean all the much more. All of that has now been thrown out the window. It's all meaningless.
Continuity was definitely a big reason people gravitated toward the MCU. Everything was pretty neat, until they did what the comics did and screwed it up. Now it makes no sense.
I long go gave up on modern comics. I’m just glad marvel does a good job in their collected edition dpt. The epic line is fantastic and they put out good omnibuses too
Agreed. The Epic Collection line and Omnibus books are great. Every month I have tons of stuff to look forward to. There are more than enough classic stories to last my lifetime.
To keep track and corral writers into following continuity takes time and effort which means money. Marvel doesn’t want to do any of that. It’s about making comics as cheap as humanly possible and screw any semblance of quality. They might as well be making toilet paper for all they care. Sad times in comics. Our beloved industry gets shit on over and over again.
Marvel completely stopped caring about continuity back in the 90s. BUT Even as far back as the 70s the thinking was there was a new audience every 5ish years as the teens of the day grew up and new 10-12 year olds replaced them. So returning to status quo every 4-5 years was the norm. Since the characters can’t really age past a certain point you can’t really write them as if they have experienced 60 years of wisdom. This is more complicated with the introduction of new younger characters (Having a baby or introducing a teen like Kitty Pryde). Now you have to age the kid but keep the adult characters in their permanent age. Douglas Wolk demonstrates this in All The Marvels.
All my shit is dated. Timestamped. The stories are the history of my imaginary world. Which is only imaginary to us, because for the people in it, it's the real world.
I was asking myself how the heck a vampire's 60 issues "stories", will help the continuity of the marvel universe. Now I know. Thanks for delivering this argument. I'm not buying a single vampire bitting people tie in this last two months. More money in my pockets and also trying some other companies products.
I wonder if part of the reason that thw6 don't care about continuity anymore is because without continuity you can make changes to characters sexuality, race,.gender, etc, ala Iceman, Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Jon Kent, Mystique, the Eternals, etc.
About Peter Parker's age, he got de-aged when he made the deal with Mephisto. I would say that Peter and his circle of friends got de-aged maybe 10 years. It has been driving me up the wall ever since that deal. That and everything else. Both Xavier and Magneto got de-aged in various ways pre-krakoan era. During krakoan era age or anything else stopped matter with the mutants. Besides that ageing have *always* been problematic for marvel. Characters that started the same age are suddenly widely different ages etc. It is getting worse though, I'll give it that.
I generally try to be positive about comics, but after reading ASM and Iron Man this week and those books and others (X-Men is also especially bad) being bad for so long it's hard to stay positive. Outside of Ultimate Spider-Man and some of the Ghost Rider stuff I can't think of a book I like right now. Ultimate X-Men started off promising, but 4 issues in it seems like X-Men in name only.
Explains much of what went down since the Krakoa era started with the X-Men Blue Origins retcon being in the top of continuity breakers (50 or so years of plotholes with that one) that were allowed to be published at the highest price.
@@EvandroACruz The one about Nightcrawler's parentage, which broke from 20 to 50 years of stories and character publishing history depending on which ones you look at.
@@spinningtornado4543 Oh sorry, I confused with X-Men Blue of the past decade. But even the retcons don't explain why everybody were behaving out your usual characters in the latest 5 years.
Well they're going to have Wolvie running around forsaking everyone in the Canadian wilderness whilst also at the same time hanging out down in New Orleans with Rogue, Gambit, Kurt & Jubilee. I think it's pretty clear they're not really concerned with continuity.
It's simple, continuity counts everything up to the year 2000. Everything after that is a beta canon else worlds/ what if story and can't be used in discussions of the actual characters by any geek of a gentlemanly manner. It's uncouth. 🧐🤣
Exactly . They are purposely destroying our history and culture as a whole ( western ) . Wtf should we care about anything the swine do . We have the stories that made the culture great . We don't need the woke mind viruses trash .
Why is that man working at Marvel? Marvel Comics pioneered the concept of continuity and consequences in the shared universe, before that stories were for the most part selfcontained and titles reset at the end of a story, characters and realities didn't or would rarely progress, comics were mostly in a stasis bubble with little evolution. Without continuity there would be no great runs, no Amazing Spider-Man, no Fantastic Four, no X-Men, would Lee & Kirby be famous? Lee & Ditko? Simonson? Claremont? What a doofus. Welcome to the age of piss-poor comics.
There are so many great stories out there. They just aren't from DC or Marvel so they just fly under the radar. Which completely sucks. If you haven;t checked out Gumaa from Titan, give it a shot.
Been with Marvel since I picked up Star Wars #1 fresh off the spinner rack in 1977. Worked in an LCS in the mid 80s and was at about 15 books a month. Now I'm down to FF and Doctor Strange. Marvel has become unrecognizable to me. I'll be at Ghost Machine where my dollar will be better spent.
I started reading comics back around 66 haven't bought a new comic in years.I buy graphic novels at Ollie's for around $5 or buy back issues for a $1 or 2
Confusion like this is why i sold my longbox for manga and never looked bad. Writers dont care about their own readers or entertaining them, so why should i care? Nowadays if i wanna re-read a comic i like, i just pirate it.
This makes it make sense why they let Jason Aaron do whatever it is the hell he wanted. Most of his Marvel books the main plot at launch is based in a retcon, what can he change about what already existed.
As far as ages go it’s funny he mentioned Spider-Man, Human Torch and Cyclops because those 3 have ALWAYS been my personal barometer for judging all other Marvel character’s ages, since they represent 3 major pillars of Marvel and started out at roughly the same age. Avengers is obviously a major pillar but check X-Men #9, they were clearly established as older characters. It’s not that hard. Core Avengers (except obviously Thor, etc) and the rest of the Fantastic Four mostly mid 30s and up, much like the MCU actors; Spider-Man, Torch and central X-Men (with obvious exceptions) around 30 give and take depending on the character; New Mutants and New Warriors 20s; Gen X early 20s; Young Avengers early 20s to late teens; New X-Men/Jean Grey School/Krakoa teens at high school age; modern Champions (Kamala, Miles, etc) around 14-17. It works easily if editorial sticks with it. But the way they fast age younger characters, but try to keep older characters younger, they sabotage themselves. But they don’t care about continuity anyway, so eh.
Editorial at Marvel is a HUGE part of the problem. Tom should have been gone years ago. Bring back an EIC like Jim Shooter. Someone who got shit done and put out great stuff!
If you want your characters to progress in stories, and stories to build on one another, then why don't you want your characters to age - And while comics are fun all that who can beat who to much leads to fun stories, and enough fun stories pile up on each other and your universe just becomes lame/silly as all creators just want to have fun/create fun stories. You can't put things on timelines if the characters don't age!!! if they age they change and that's what makes them interesting, and if you feel like a certain Spider-Man is the right or best way to make him, you can make alternate universes were they are the same, as well as make a character were they are way different. Or make the character so they don't age and give an explanation for how... U don't have to go age by age, but ever several decades you should look at how the character may change and make stories for that era, while not stopping make stories of when they were younger, but making less of them...
Removing continuity just makes comics more skippable than they already are. A lot of fans kept buying a book because even if they weren’t enjoying the current story, they believed it would inform what would come next when the story hopefully improved. Only modern comics could take money out of their own pocket and consider it beneficial.
The promise of a tight continuity is a MAJOR reason why the Rippaverse has sold over 150,000 graphic novels in two years and made close to 10 MILLION dollars.
They’re basically saying that they don’t care. They don’t want to have any cohesion with their line of books. They don’t want to force the writers to keep in lockstep so everything gels. Which isn’t surprising because the endless recons, reboots are in opposition to having a consistent narrative. Glad I don’t read their books anymore and don’t have to keep up with their hackneyed stories.
As a Marvel fan since the early seventies, I am also disappointed with the direction of Marvel. These days, I have given up on the new stuff, and just buy all the classic stories in Marvel Epic Collections and Omnibus books. Marvel still gets my money, but it is just for the old Marvel Universe that I love. There are more than enough classic stories to last my lifetime.
I'm good with writers telling stories that take characters out of their continuity, just put all the toys back in the toy box at the end of your run. Leave the character how you found them .
Continuity is important for a few reasons, and this isn't rocket science. It's important because: 1) you want to have the stories make sense within the 616 universe; 2) you want to show respect to the creators who laid the foundation for the 616 universe; and, 3) you want to respect your audience's intelligence. These 'editors' know this, too, they just don't care to preserve what better creators have done, but whatever. It's no shock that some of the better 'modern' (10 or so years ago) stories attempted to use past continuity as a stepping stone to build their own stories, instead of just pooping all over it, changing things bc they don't have the patience or talent to research it, or just changing it bc it doesn't fit with their own modern vision. This is just another good reason to stop supporting the big-2 until they stop trying to turn comics into a ghey club. To tell the truth, I'd be good to scrap the last 8 or so years from 616 canon, tho
I'm already done with Marvel anyway. I support Indie comics made by people like JDA, Arrow comics, Creators from FundMyComic, and regardless of the fake drama people like to attach to it, The Rippaverse. No one is going to change my mind and the drama over them is completely unnecessary.
Not that it changes the thesis of the video, which is quite on point, but Peter teaches in University in Spectacular Spider-Men, and the book is quite good so far.
I see what Marvel is trying to do with all these Red Band editions of comics that are coming down the pipe. It’s a shameless cash grab and I’m literally not buying into it.
It is nonesense, but reader investment relies on people not realizing/acknowledging that it's nonesense, so you need to keep some level of internal consistency even if on a larger scale you got confusing crap like Marvel's sliding timeline and DC rebooting their continuity evey five years that only more hardcore fans will undestand (or really care about). It's like when Superboy Prime's redemption story ended with him just telling the reader that events comics suck and to get out and touch some grass. Like, good advice both it's not in DC's best interest to give it out lol.
Of course they hate continuity. Current writers for established franchises generally have no respect for the work done by people who came before them and those working in modern comics are the bottom of the barrel. There are executive mandates to keep Spider-Man a Peter Pan knock off and writers who publish crap that reads like fan fiction they wrote in Jr. High School. The sad truth is that they let continuity go to crap and no one wants to be the one to fix it because everyone else is continually breaking it.
Agreed!💯📠
If none of the stories from the past matter- why should anybody have any confidence that today's stories will matter by tomorrow either?
I wonder how many current stories are going to experience (or already have experienced) what I call the Law & Order: SVU effect. See, the L&O franchise brags about having plots "ripped from the headlines". The thing is Special Victims Unit seems to do a bad job at it. They try so hard to rip off current events that the episode is badly done and soon becomes dated (similar to shows and movies that use memes). You watch an SVU rerun and either think, "Oh, yeah, that was a thing that happened..." or, "This might be based on something that was going on at the time, but I sure can't figure out what it was!"
Exactly. Hit the nail on the head. If Marvel themselves are telling us they do not care, then why should we anymore at this point?
Are there even stories today. I read the last 2 years of DC to catch up. Big mistake. AS I have ZERO clue what's happening. LOL
Exactly
So they are making it easy for me to quit supporting Marvel because if there is no past, there’s no future.
Or both.
It’s just astonishing how a few individuals can bring down a company in less than a decade.
"There's is no tomorrow! There's is no tomorrow!" - Apollo Creed
You'd think the Communists masquerading as Marvel Comics' "creatives" would know better. Controlling the historical narrative was CRITICAL to the Party taking and holding onto power in the Soviet Union.
Correct. In fact, that's what Dr. Manhattan did when he removed key events in the DCU during Flashpoint. And as a result, he couldn't see ANYTHING but darkness in the future when the DCU was altered into the New 52
The fact that Black Panther is a king and now an emperor, has been married and has YET to sire an HEIR or even have an APPRENTICE, to continue the line of BPs when he himself has almost died several times, is CRIMINAL. He’s a grown ass man now, years older than Spiderman, and every other issue he’s trying to figure out why he should be king and unworthy he is of the throne is maddening continuity wise
I know cannon and continuity can get lost or an error, or a retcon will happen because comics exist for a long time things will get lost.
But continuity is the most important thing to any type of media.
I used to work at Wizard magazine. Marvel stopped caring about continuity under Axel Alonso.
Actually, they stopped caring about continuity under Joe Quesada.
Is Wizard still around? I really enjoyed that magazine back in the days!
@@ensabahnur7657love their casting calls
@@ensabahnur7657No, it's gone
How back much further. In the 90s the whole company fractured into 4 separate divisions (X, Spider, Av, and Edge). They all had different editors and stuff happening between the lines didn’t affect the others. Then came Heroes Reborn. Afterwards they tried to bring it back together but sales were so shitty they brought in Quesada for MK. Once he became EIC it was more creator driven than editorial for a good 5 years. They actively avoided getting bogged down in continuity. Then they started all the crossovers for cash grabs.
Marvel died when Disney took over!
As sad as it is to say that you right as soon as a marble was brought by Disney is it was dead and they they definitely killed Marvel in 2015 with the all new all different Marvel that was something nobody asked him to do at all.
100 😂 marvel and star wars died when Disney take over.
Sounds about right. Star Wars too.
@ Ensa
I second that.
At this point that applies to anything Disney has touched or will touch 😔😔
Wow. So what I took away from Tom’s “it’s fiction” quote is they’re publicly telling us if Marvel editorial and execs don’t care about their brands/line, why should we? And he’s right, I’m actually more happy saving my money these days then to give it to anything Marvel comics is publishing these days
Back when I started reading Marvel comics in the 80s I thought it was so cool that I had 25 years of history to catch up on. Some of my favorite books were Marvel Tales and Classic X-Men
The fact, Ted Kord Blue beetle coming back to life due to an editorial error, is not the biggest news in terms of "look how a comic editorial staff goofed up" in either a positive or negative life is wild to me
The reason things like that dont get attention is because of the insane amount of malicious changes to source material that we all have no energy to even enjoy goofy mistakes because it happens all the time now but on purpose. It's also being done in a way that in some of this stuff, is changing the concept of what makes the character what they are but it's not even deconstruction because there is no redemption
Well remember you know DC decided to do the new 52 after the events of flashpoint nobody told him to do that and like I've been saying for a long time retconning without a purpose will always kill your stories and the future for your stories and that's why I always said ever since flashpoint came and they brought Barry Allen back after flash rebirth it was the end of BC comic books and they haven't been able to recover since
@@treymykel thats so true tho new 52 hurt DC so bad, that when they did DC rebirth which was a a good effort at what people like, sales didn't go up much because of how they only associated DC with the new 52
I'm a green lantern fan so I'm like the only guy eating consistently ok lol ..... we payed our dues after the parallax saga
I also feel like new 52 might have worked out on a better note if doomsday clock didn't get delayed so absurdly far out
Ted Kord never died in this new universe in fact.
@EvandroACruz what ? ??? ...... nah man he litterly recounts being shot in the head for his cam therapy session in heroes in crisis .... also why even bring him back so far in randomly? It's because it was an editorial error and then later a retcon
Sorry I shouldn't be so confident but I'm pretty sure I remember that being the timeliness because it c
onfused everyone around that time
I think in the sense of it was so random and then explained as being a wiped situation from existence (being shot by maxwell lord) is weird and I do think the retconn happened after the mistake of putting him back in. I think we both are right on this
@@briandoyle1168 This don't make any sense. In this new universe Ted never died. But is Tom King writing so nothing makes sense.
Mark Gruenwald (rest his soul) was a stickler for continuity and is certainly rolling over in his grave over Brevoort's comments. Continuity has always mattered to me, and a big reason why Marvel used to resonate so strongly with me. It's no coincidence that their current disregard for canon is directly proportional to my lack of interest in the current Marvel universe.
There were times when Gru would use a character in continuity but get the characterization wrong, e.g. Firebrand going from anti-establishment radical to (in the story where he and lots of other villains were gunned down by Scourge) a go-between for villains and employers. No explanation what happened to change him that much. But I'll say this for Mark: at least he was aware of all these characters existing and would use them in his stories while *usually* not making them look bad. That's more than lots of other writers did and are doing now.
That explains a lot about the past several years of X-Men comics where nothing mattered
Yes and why every character were OCC in latest years.
Marvel pretty much was trying to kill the X-men for the past 15 years until the Krakoa run
They don't care about cannon - just like they don't want to know or care about history. It gets in the way of their lackadaisical approach.
It's just too difficult to 1. keep up with 2. be nuanced about or 3. Cleverly structure stories around core unmovable points.
The last 5-15 years most recently have been seen largely as idealogical output ... but for the most part it's really down to a lack off care, ability and talent!
Of course they don’t care about continuity, they couldn’t care less.
It's like the people in charge of any large media companies don't understand that fans like to analyze and contextualize the stories that they're fans of. The whole "shut up and consume" meme fits.
Without continuity and good storytelling; why I care ?
Exactly but they also trained a lot of people nowadays to be like who cares about the continuity It is just storytelling Well then what's the point of being invested in it and you see those same people are invested in the stories
@@treymykel Agreed. “Who cares about continuity? It’s just storytelling,” only works if it’s a one-off work without any definite connection to anything, like Grimms’ tales, Aesop’s fables, Anansi tales, or a campfire story. It fails completely when applied to a continuing saga like most comic book series. Shoot, SpongeBob SquarePants, which is an episodic series, even has some continuity (seen when the whelk invasion episode mentioned the time SpongeBob got the suds).
No!
As a child finding comics... getting back issues to understand the lore and continuity was a major reason I loved comics so much and went back week after week buying back issues ..it felt like a favorite book or show that never ends..its just keeps going ....I would be aonexcired when a writer toed in something from years a ago or a charecter ..or a plot line that was forgotten and drop a new story out of it and I feel today's comics have lost that
With any fandom continuity, lore, canon keeps the dedicated fans invested for the long ride and the dedicated are the one's who tend cheerlead and bring in the new fans. Using characters just as skin suits to whatever story they want I can't see that working long term. What if and elseword is for that, but it shouldn't be the main direction, only a fun side gig.
Remember when the comic book media put 'House of M' over like it was the greatest story in history?
Why would he do that? Because the Writers and Execs at Disney told him. And he wants to be able to keep working and feeding himself. He's just an editor, he's not one of the Hollywood elite.
Then he needs to stick to his principles and quit. He can go work for Image.
@@saiyan_spawn4204it's not as easy as you think it is
@@MatthewLoh-ru1mw Tell that to Todd McFarlane.
Cannon is for nerds but the cool kids want to be the nerds now ....and don't like the idea of cannon since they were not there when events happen....
Marvel died when they took the cigar out of Wolverines mouth.
Blame Joe Qusada
@@sith7183I always did! Qusada was a major Fig and SJW. Even before the huge Woke decline of Marvel. I would say…. Right around the time Ice-Man was turned Gay.
If the creators don't care don't see why anyone else should. It's why i quit years ago. Happy to just read my old stuff from back when they actually had standards. No professionalism anymore.
Brevort thinks canon and continuity are a waste of time?
That sure explains why he let Avengers BC happen then!
One of most dumbest retcons ever.
Probably
So, what Tom Brevoort is saying is that if a writer suddenly decided to retcon Spider-Man as having been an alien or a cyborg all along, then it’s perfectly okay because continuity doesn’t matter?
Maybe? 🤔
Good dialogue. Unfortunately it’s a topic that I stopped caring about with Marvel some time ago. I love reading old back issues of good story arcs that I missed in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s. Otherwise, I don’t read many current mainstream timelines. I like a good short comic book run of 5-12 issues or a one-shot. FF Full Circle and Avengers: War Across Time are 2 of the best “modern” story arcs that I’ve read.
I think maybe it’s because I’ve been reading comics for 40 years but my biggest pet peeve is the creator turnover. Ever 3 or 4 issues there is a different artist. There is little effort in providing uniformity to the visual continuity. Going from Chechetto to Messina or Frigeri to Noto is very jarring. The message I get from this is “we don’t care enough about this series to schedule artists in advance or invest in a long term creative team. We just want a front loaded debut issue.” Sorry, I’m not paying $6 a book for that level of commitment.
My feeling is there wouldn’t be as much turnover if they’d vet people first. They’ll assign someone who doesn’t give a flip about the characters or the continuity (despite there being long-time fans who have the drive, talent, knowledge, and desire to write the books) and only wants to fill the series with their self-insert Mary Sues/Gary Stews. Then the bad writer puts out bad stories and the series bombs, so they have to replace that writer and start all over again. This wouldn’t happen if they’d hire good writers and not go, “Let’s get this person off tumblr/Twitter!”
@@karaoconnoraliasraidra I meant more the artists. The writers don’t switch around that much. The newly released Ultimate line has had 6 different artists on 3 of the books in less than 5 months.
@@bradfrederick1135 Oh, gotcha! Switching art styles so much would be distracting. One time I saw art of Tim Drake (Robin) so bad it looked like one of those “Artists draw ABC character in XYZ style” pages people make for laughs.
Marvel started going to hell once Quesada took over. You saw a lack of editorial over sight and lack of appreciation for continuity going back to the early 2000's.
Ignoring continuity was done on purpose. It was a way for Marvel to convince certain writers ( independent and writers from the U.K.) like Bendis,Millar, and others to work on the books. Granted there was some well written books and storylines during the early 2000,s. But the writers back then were actually good and talented
Over a decade Marvel has really tried to convince its readers that continuity doesn't matter. So once Disney did take over and Quesada started bringing in untalented hacks. Then Marvel fell off a cliff.
bendis was the first writer that spoke that continuity isn't important.
My suggestion is an Avengers Spotlight book. Reprint the first meeting between Character "A" & Character "B", then have a 2nd story that expands on relationship with a behind the scenes villain that is new to readers. This villain can be built up every issue.
This why mangas always will be superior to the Big 2. In the mangas continuity truly matters. The characters grow up,evolve and have closure. Brevoort it's so lazy to try to fix the huge damage that Krakoa Era did to X-Men books in the past 5 years. The entire X-men continuity was fucked up and we had a complete bastardization of the entire cast of characters. Marvel is too damn arrogant and stupid to reboot Krakoa out of the main continuity so the only way it's just ignore all this shit and move on. This just confirm that From The Ashes relaunch is DOA already.
Modern Marvel editorialis the antithesis to Mark Gruenwald
I miss Mark Gruenwald so much T-T.
🕯️
Well, there's one upside to this "no continuity" approach... They can undo "One More Day" and returning characters back to their original forms. Let's see if they really mean that continuity is unimportant then!
This is partly why Manga and Manwa have gained such popularity. You start at Issue #1 and go till it ends. Depending on series, they can have spin-offs, sequel series or even generational series, but its all easy to follow. Compare that to most anything Marvel or DC and you get lost just by trying to follow a single character as they go on multiple adventures at once.
It just makes it easier for me to ignore the garbage they're cranking out now.
I wish Malibu's Ultraverse had never been bought out by the Marvel machine. Ultraforce, Rune, Mantra, and the original Exiles were more enjoyable and compelling for myself than anything Marvel or DC puts out these days.
Honestly if you want my advice I say focus on ultimate Spider-Man and the other new ultimate books and that’s about it everything else not so much in my opinion.
Hello man. I got this reply from a TH-camr: Shortyrara. He said guys like thinking critical, you, and me are nobodies.
@@DarthDread-oh2neWhy do you care what they think? Their opinions are duly noted but they only matter to them. Not us. In the meantime, we will continue to indulge ourselves and if they don't like it, well, who gives a damn what they think, right? Keep calm, and carry on good sir.
@@DarthDread-oh2ne ignore those idiots
I don’t care. I just think it’s funny, if you go to his channel; you will see how boring it is. And you have a good day as well.
@@DarthDread-oh2ne gotcha
Continuity at Marvel seems to have gone to hell the moment Mark Gruenwald passed, apparently he was really on the ball with the Continuity. I remember that seeing that they've been dealing with Writers not keeping track of what the others are doing and the messing up eachother's work because they had the same character doing different things at the same time. And what they are doing now is "Only Nerds care, F'em! Write whatever we just need a book on the shelf this month"
Marvel stopped to care about continuity since Joe Quesada Era in the early of 2000.
Invincible is probably one of the best books I've ever written. Watching Mark progressively become older and better with time shows how he gets better over time. Characters becoming stagnant or staying one age forever pauses progression.
Edit: I definitely meant to say read, not written 😅 I can't take that credit. All praise goes to Robert Kirkman.
Congratulations on writing Invincible!! You’re very talented!
Immortal Hulk #41
The Thing says it has been 13 years since the cosmic rays and there's a picture of his 2nd life's bar mitzvah. Every character he's crossed over with in those early comics have also had 13 years pass.
I and plenty others jumped ship from Marvel a long time ago. Time for everyone else to do the same. These people DONT CARE and neither should you.
I jumped ship just last month. Don't worry, folks... there are plenty of lifeboats left for everyone!
Me too, same with DC due to Absolute Power event starting now
I hate everything about this, I wish they’d close marvel comics at this point and just put out old stuff
Marvels best releases are facsimile reprints at this point so there’s that.
They will never do that!! (close Marvel comics) because it's an IP farm for future movies and TV shows
@@MatthewLoh-ru1mw just close the comics side and hide some animators to makes shows out of all the old comics
@@themultiversalmagpie7827 problem is they’d make shows out of some stupid Dan Slott story instead of using good ones because that’s the logic these days.
It's sad that someone- much less someone in a pretty high position at a major comic book publisher- is acting like wanting to respect canon and continuity is a hot take. Haven't they learned anything from DC, where fans are confused all the time because no one knows what's canon or not? I've heard that back in the day Marvel had a "No-prize" which was awarded to true believers who spotted an error in an issue and sent in a message about it. There were editor notes apologizing for errors and even plotlines meant to resolve continuity issues (sometimes badly done, but they tried). It's no coincidence that the classic issues made by people who gave a flip are generally better than what the "So freaking what?" people are limping to the barn with today. Hmm, limping to the barn... I just had a flashback to "The Great Snail Race" (AKA one of the episodes my aunt and I hate because SpongeBob was so mean to poor Gary). There SpongeBob was bragging about how great his racing snail was and there poor Gary was looking ready to collapse from exhaustion and mistreatment. That's how some people in the industry are today: bragging about what they've put out when the product is a mess.
I was just telling a friend that I might get the new Thunderbolts TPB (the one with a roster that’s clearly meant as an advertisement for the upcoming MCU film) because even though it was lacking in some areas, others weren't bad (It's sad that, "It was okay," is now the benchmark for buying comics, but you know). I noted, “This is one of those teams that has potential and could do cool stuff in the future, so we'll probably never hear about it again.”
Continuity at marvel means nothing now, because these new writers and editors are lazy and don't give a shit. I loved silver/bronze and marvel up until 2010 when we used to get footnotes (where readers could go back and check out pass issues for info) and concrete Continuity.
These lazy modern writers don't even read the old stories.
@@EvandroACruz Sometimes they even brag about it like it’s something to be proud of, like, “I purposely avoided reading the earlier stories so I could make my own story!” So what you’re saying is you were too lazy and self-centered to learn about the characters and their backgrounds, and now you’re expecting us to be proud of you for not giving a flip. Terrific. :-/
I think the reason they retell the old stories is because the Big Two believe their audience ages out every 7 to 10 years. They don't care about long, long time readers.
yes,this make sense.
At some point we have to find that the entire marvel universe since giant size xmen 1 have been nothing but a simulation in the minds of the xmen as they are held in the pits of krakoa as their psychic energies feed the island. cant wait for the whole mu to go back to the 70's and try again. however considering the lack of writing talent what's the point as they will just screw it up.
Every single time they attacked Continuity Marvel lost more readers. Its not like we haven't heard this before - we've heard it a couple of times from the late 90s, onwards. I hated it way back then, because it felt 'lesser' for it - now it doesn't matter, because I don't read Marvel - a mix because Continuity is not present WHILE all that shit they have put into the books means the only stuff they have kept is their crap agenda canon. Its this utterly bizarre mix of completely opposite extreme's but at the polar opposite of what I'd accept in those extremes.
I love drawing and reading comics. The two biggest hurdles I have with American comics is the Canon is so wishy-washy and even trying to buy the comics is a hunt if you miss the release. Compared to manga, manga is so consumer friendly it's dumb.
I've said it a thousand times. I jumped into Spider-Man at Web of #83, and immediately got the sense that I was reading part of a story that stretched all the way back to to 1963. He was mature, battle-worn and experienced, which made his boyish quips mean all the much more. All of that has now been thrown out the window. It's all meaningless.
Basically, they're not super heroes, they're bugs Bunny. "This month spideys a cowboy."
That's all folks.
Or just caricatures, NOT characters
Continuity was definitely a big reason people gravitated toward the MCU. Everything was pretty neat, until they did what the comics did and screwed it up. Now it makes no sense.
I long go gave up on modern comics. I’m just glad marvel does a good job in their collected edition dpt. The epic line is fantastic and they put out good omnibuses too
Agreed. The Epic Collection line and Omnibus books are great. Every month I have tons of stuff to look forward to. There are more than enough classic stories to last my lifetime.
Continuity hurts people's feelings!
To keep track and corral writers into following continuity takes time and effort which means money. Marvel doesn’t want to do any of that. It’s about making comics as cheap as humanly possible and screw any semblance of quality. They might as well be making toilet paper for all they care. Sad times in comics. Our beloved industry gets shit on over and over again.
Peter Parker was a grad student for years.
Marvel completely stopped caring about continuity back in the 90s. BUT Even as far back as the 70s the thinking was there was a new audience every 5ish years as the teens of the day grew up and new 10-12 year olds replaced them. So returning to status quo every 4-5 years was the norm. Since the characters can’t really age past a certain point you can’t really write them as if they have experienced 60 years of wisdom. This is more complicated with the introduction of new younger characters (Having a baby or introducing a teen like Kitty Pryde). Now you have to age the kid but keep the adult characters in their permanent age. Douglas Wolk demonstrates this in All The Marvels.
All my shit is dated. Timestamped. The stories are the history of my imaginary world. Which is only imaginary to us, because for the people in it, it's the real world.
I was asking myself how the heck a vampire's 60 issues "stories", will help the continuity of the marvel universe. Now I know. Thanks for delivering this argument. I'm not buying a single vampire bitting people tie in this last two months. More money in my pockets and also trying some other companies products.
I wonder if part of the reason that thw6 don't care about continuity anymore is because without continuity you can make changes to characters sexuality, race,.gender, etc, ala Iceman, Green Lantern (Alan Scott), Jon Kent, Mystique, the Eternals, etc.
Don’t worry about continuity, just tell a good story. So, when I am I going to get the “good story”?
About Peter Parker's age, he got de-aged when he made the deal with Mephisto. I would say that Peter and his circle of friends got de-aged maybe 10 years. It has been driving me up the wall ever since that deal. That and everything else.
Both Xavier and Magneto got de-aged in various ways pre-krakoan era. During krakoan era age or anything else stopped matter with the mutants.
Besides that ageing have *always* been problematic for marvel. Characters that started the same age are suddenly widely different ages etc.
It is getting worse though, I'll give it that.
I generally try to be positive about comics, but after reading ASM and Iron Man this week and those books and others (X-Men is also especially bad) being bad for so long it's hard to stay positive.
Outside of Ultimate Spider-Man and some of the Ghost Rider stuff I can't think of a book I like right now.
Ultimate X-Men started off promising, but 4 issues in it seems like X-Men in name only.
Explains much of what went down since the Krakoa era started with the X-Men Blue Origins retcon being in the top of continuity breakers (50 or so years of plotholes with that one) that were allowed to be published at the highest price.
What retcon? I didn't read X-Men Blue.
@@EvandroACruz The one about Nightcrawler's parentage, which broke from 20 to 50 years of stories and character publishing history depending on which ones you look at.
@@spinningtornado4543 Oh sorry, I confused with X-Men Blue of the past decade. But even the retcons don't explain why everybody were behaving out your usual characters in the latest 5 years.
Well they're going to have Wolvie running around forsaking everyone in the Canadian wilderness whilst also at the same time hanging out down in New Orleans with Rogue, Gambit, Kurt & Jubilee.
I think it's pretty clear they're not really concerned with continuity.
Yup. That tells you as much about their caring about "continuity"!
Shit went down hill after Stan passed.
Welcome to Whose Comic is it Anyway? Where the events are made up and the Plots don’t matter! 😂
😂
Marvel's continuity was one of the main things that separated Marvel from DC.
It's simple, continuity counts everything up to the year 2000. Everything after that is a beta canon else worlds/ what if story and can't be used in discussions of the actual characters by any geek of a gentlemanly manner. It's uncouth. 🧐🤣
Avengers twilight is my favorite current comic and look what’s different? Age and change, tell a story or just close down
I'll just focus on buying older Marvel stories
Exactly .
They are purposely destroying our history and culture as a whole ( western ) .
Wtf should we care about anything the swine do .
We have the stories that made the culture great .
We don't need the woke mind viruses trash .
Why is that man working at Marvel? Marvel Comics pioneered the concept of continuity and consequences in the shared universe, before that stories were for the most part selfcontained and titles reset at the end of a story, characters and realities didn't or would rarely progress, comics were mostly in a stasis bubble with little evolution. Without continuity there would be no great runs, no Amazing Spider-Man, no Fantastic Four, no X-Men, would Lee & Kirby be famous? Lee & Ditko? Simonson? Claremont?
What a doofus. Welcome to the age of piss-poor comics.
There are so many great stories out there. They just aren't from DC or Marvel so they just fly under the radar. Which completely sucks. If you haven;t checked out Gumaa from Titan, give it a shot.
Been with Marvel since I picked up Star Wars #1 fresh off the spinner rack in 1977. Worked in an LCS in the mid 80s and was at about 15 books a month. Now I'm down to FF and Doctor Strange. Marvel has become unrecognizable to me. I'll be at Ghost Machine where my dollar will be better spent.
marvel just doesn't want to sell comics anymore.... the people managing marvel are not comic book fans... pure and simple.
I started reading comics back around 66 haven't bought a new comic in years.I buy graphic novels at Ollie's for around $5 or buy back issues for a $1 or 2
Confusion like this is why i sold my longbox for manga and never looked bad. Writers dont care about their own readers or entertaining them, so why should i care?
Nowadays if i wanna re-read a comic i like, i just pirate it.
This makes it make sense why they let Jason Aaron do whatever it is the hell he wanted. Most of his Marvel books the main plot at launch is based in a retcon, what can he change about what already existed.
The earliest lesbian Black Cat reference was M2 universe Spider-girl back in 2002.
Now they've made it canon
I would have liked it if they had made a few other things cannon. Like bringing back the Spidey Marriage and Mayday
@@OminousArtistthe marriage yes, in Renew your Vows and the current USM by Hickman
As far as ages go it’s funny he mentioned Spider-Man, Human Torch and Cyclops because those 3 have ALWAYS been my personal barometer for judging all other Marvel
character’s ages, since they represent 3 major pillars of Marvel and started out at roughly the same age. Avengers is obviously a major pillar but check X-Men #9, they were clearly established as older characters. It’s not that hard. Core Avengers (except obviously Thor, etc) and the rest of the Fantastic Four mostly mid 30s and up, much like the MCU actors; Spider-Man, Torch and central X-Men (with obvious exceptions) around 30 give and take depending on the character; New Mutants and New Warriors 20s; Gen X early 20s; Young Avengers early 20s to late teens; New X-Men/Jean Grey School/Krakoa teens at high school age; modern Champions (Kamala, Miles, etc) around 14-17. It works easily if editorial sticks with it. But the way they fast age younger characters, but try to keep older characters younger, they sabotage themselves. But they don’t care about continuity anyway, so eh.
They have been making comics for themselves for a long time now.
Editorial at Marvel is a HUGE part of the problem. Tom should have been gone years ago. Bring back an EIC like Jim Shooter. Someone who got shit done and put out great stuff!
The past dictates the future
If you want your characters to progress in stories, and stories to build on one another, then why don't you want your characters to age - And while comics are fun all that who can beat who to much leads to fun stories, and enough fun stories pile up on each other and your universe just becomes lame/silly as all creators just want to have fun/create fun stories. You can't put things on timelines if the characters don't age!!! if they age they change and that's what makes them interesting, and if you feel like a certain Spider-Man is the right or best way to make him, you can make alternate universes were they are the same, as well as make a character were they are way different. Or make the character so they don't age and give an explanation for how... U don't have to go age by age, but ever several decades you should look at how the character may change and make stories for that era, while not stopping make stories of when they were younger, but making less of them...
Removing continuity just makes comics more skippable than they already are. A lot of fans kept buying a book because even if they weren’t enjoying the current story, they believed it would inform what would come next when the story hopefully improved. Only modern comics could take money out of their own pocket and consider it beneficial.
LOL! Wes your too much 😂 well Steve Rogers didn't like Nazis as a teenager and again your absolutely right its like WHO DOES!!??
Sadly, this looks to be the case with their continuity seems to be all over place, or NO continuity in place at all!! 😅
The promise of a tight continuity is a MAJOR reason why the Rippaverse has sold over 150,000 graphic novels in two years and made close to 10 MILLION dollars.
Never forget, it's all fiction. It means as much of as little as you choose to invest in it.
They’re basically saying that they don’t care. They don’t want to have any cohesion with their line of books. They don’t want to force the writers to keep in lockstep so everything gels.
Which isn’t surprising because the endless recons, reboots are in opposition to having a consistent narrative.
Glad I don’t read their books anymore and don’t have to keep up with their hackneyed stories.
As a Marvel fan since the early seventies, I am also disappointed with the direction of Marvel. These days, I have given up on the new stuff, and just buy all the classic stories in Marvel Epic Collections and Omnibus books. Marvel still gets my money, but it is just for the old Marvel Universe that I love. There are more than enough classic stories to last my lifetime.
I got the West Coast Avengers: Darker Than Scarlet TPB and it is great.
Main take away: STOP reading the Big 2. Go read Manga instead.
Mangas are life.
I'm good with writers telling stories that take characters out of their continuity, just put all the toys back in the toy box at the end of your run. Leave the character how you found them .
Continuity is important for a few reasons, and this isn't rocket science. It's important because: 1) you want to have the stories make sense within the 616 universe; 2) you want to show respect to the creators who laid the foundation for the 616 universe; and, 3) you want to respect your audience's intelligence. These 'editors' know this, too, they just don't care to preserve what better creators have done, but whatever. It's no shock that some of the better 'modern' (10 or so years ago) stories attempted to use past continuity as a stepping stone to build their own stories, instead of just pooping all over it, changing things bc they don't have the patience or talent to research it, or just changing it bc it doesn't fit with their own modern vision. This is just another good reason to stop supporting the big-2 until they stop trying to turn comics into a ghey club.
To tell the truth, I'd be good to scrap the last 8 or so years from 616 canon, tho
I'm already done with Marvel anyway. I support Indie comics made by people like JDA, Arrow comics, Creators from FundMyComic, and regardless of the fake drama people like to attach to it, The Rippaverse. No one is going to change my mind and the drama over them is completely unnecessary.
Not that it changes the thesis of the video, which is quite on point, but Peter teaches in University in Spectacular Spider-Men, and the book is quite good so far.
I see what Marvel is trying to do with all these Red Band editions of comics that are coming down the pipe. It’s a shameless cash grab and I’m literally not buying into it.
Red it? Nah, Banned it!
It is nonesense, but reader investment relies on people not realizing/acknowledging that it's nonesense, so you need to keep some level of internal consistency even if on a larger scale you got confusing crap like Marvel's sliding timeline and DC rebooting their continuity evey five years that only more hardcore fans will undestand (or really care about).
It's like when Superboy Prime's redemption story ended with him just telling the reader that events comics suck and to get out and touch some grass. Like, good advice both it's not in DC's best interest to give it out lol.
Guy Gardner Greatest Lantern!!
He has to overcome the villains and Guy Gardner, and that guy's a real a hole. 🤣
Marvel is becoming less and less important to my reading and purchasing habits because they are so loose with cannon.
Awesome work guys
For me, Marvel ended at Secret Wars 2015.
Avengers Disassembled 2004.