How long before the fake units turn up with a cable passing right through and a little circuit to generate a fixed mark space ratio for one current. Perhaps even coming supplied with a fuse bypass for a 13A plug to allow turbo charging from an ordinary socket.
I think it will be a while before EVs get cheap enough that people would risk using chrapo crap chargers. I predict that before that we'll see charge cables with inbuilt rippling EL wire, like those USB cables.
Also I've not tried it, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some cars' on-board charger would be unhappy seeing mains before it had asserted its "charging" state and shut down
judging by fairly small relays for 30A, at normal operation they are switched with no or little load. This is probably why it can not interrupt charging by itself. So the car most likely can handle being plugged directly to mains without physical damage, but it might set some errors, loose warranty or so.
In Czech Republic, almost all houses have 3 phase. The most common connections ranges from 3x16A to 3x25A. 3x32A is also quite common for larger houses, or if there is a heat pump or another big appliance installed.
Great to see another Kona owner! Congrats on the car 😀 Great explanation on the charging protocol and the tests. Thanks! Hope to see some Kona-specific hacks from you in the future 🙂
I didn't even know they do these interlocked "industrial" plugs. In Poland where most homeowners have three phase installation we just put our 400V sockets (the 4/5 prong versions of this one in various size depending on current capability) high enough above the floor ;) Usually the spring in socket cover is hard enough to discourage a young electrician. And to be honest if there's this kind of socket in the room usually electrocution is the least concerning thing - I'd be more scared about my kid trying to learn how table saw works.
How did we even survive our childhood? All those safety features are becoming increasingly annoying. I have a hard time finding distribution extension cords without the safety covers here in Austria. I hate those because it makes plugging stuff in harder and sometimes the covers catch on the contacts of cheap euro-plugs. And yeah, I'd consider even the wood chisels in my workshop more dangerous that the 3-phase outlet that the drill press right beside them is plugged into.
Type E and F sockets that are used in most EU countries are rated for 16A, that's true, but only for 4 minutes. The continuous rating is just 10A as well.
In Finland recommendations were updated in 2016 to such that by default a car should charge at 8A. The user can increase the current at their discretion (i.e. if they know their system will handle it). Such usage is comparable to motor and passenger compartment heaters being used simultaneously, which has been common here for decades. Generally the worst you can cause is a molten socket, which is mostly an inconvenience and not a hazard. You can get sockets that are specified to handle 16A continuously. Regardless, it's mostly a common sense matter of the temperature of the contacts. An old, worn-out, cheap or dirty socket will do worse than a good new one. Also, wiring matters. If the wiring has been routed through insulation, it will get much hotter than if it was installed on the surface of a wall. High temperature of wiring will slowly degrade the electrical insulation of the wiring. In Finland, Schuko sockets are tested to handle 22A for 1 hour. Tesla charges at 13A by default from a Schuko.
Hello, everyone. Here is Penny Peng from KHONS. If you have any question about KHONS. Just contact me directly. And I just want to say very good video, though it seems KHONS charger not so cool. We will keep update products and improving.
I would have never guessed that the communication between chargers is as basic as a 1kHz square wave, you would think they would have developed a digital protocol to communicate between the car and the charger, for example for the car to identify itself for payment. Intresting!
Rapid chargers go to the other extreme - Homeplug greenPhy with loads of layers on top, where a simple UART would have sufficed. That does support car ID for billing etc.
@@mikeselectricstuff Some of the chargers at where I work actually are very picky, connecting the wrong car locks the cable (at the pole-side, and sometimes also at the car-side) and you need to call the billing company to disable the lock. I have no idea why you would design something like that, but it really feels like a Trusted Computing kind of thing).
Given the ubiquity of CAN in automotive I was also surprised there simply wasn't a differential CAN pair and a standard protocol identifying the charging parameters and more.
@@mikeselectricstuff Great video mike, very extensive with your testing which is great. ZC is coming out with a new TUV certified t-B certified version shortly in 4 weeks so I've read. I would be very interested in you testing that new updated (safer) version if that was of interest to you at all? Then you can also make a comparison as to what you can see & feel they've improved in terms of quality + safety also which would be a great update to this video.
3 phase is very common in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. Having roadtripped a lot, I was surprised at how many level 2 chargers were 3 phase. Very useful on my Model S. 17kW on board charger.
I really like the way you 've affixed that 16 amp outlet on the wall there. At first, I was trying to figure out your reasoning for having the socket pointing plumb down rather than the normal intended slight angle outward. And then it struck me. The longer the plug, the more it will protrude from the wall and the more likely to get knocked and bashed. I raise my hat to you, Sir for your unassailable logic. >
I think the latching in of the plug, done by the car, is more of a security thing. My car doesn't lock the plug, but disconnection under load still can't happen because the latch button on the plug breaks the pilot signal. That way, both the car and the EVSE shut down before you have a chance to pull the plug out.
OK, so you're already my favourite youtuber just for the electronics stuff and now you're getting into EV stuff? That's my game! If you want to know or do anything related to EVs, hit me up, I make extender batteries for the old Nissan Leaf and, hopefully in the future, other EVs as well and I've also worked and am working on EVSEs.
@@mikeselectricstuff The VESS sound. But... you have the best sound! I've built an amp board for my Leaf specifically to replace my 'scraping brakes' pedestrian alert sound to the Kona spaceship sound... So for EV-ethical reasons I cannot assist you in this endeavour ;) I don't know enough about Hyundai's typical electronics layout to really help with this, but on the Leaf it is not feasible to actually replace the sound file as it's hard-coded in the flash of a weird Panasonic MCU that I can't find any useful data for, and which has fused-off memory. Hence the workaround. I think this is probably also the fastest way to go about this on the Kona. I have a contact at the biggest Hyundai repair center in the Netherlands, I'll keep an eye out for any salvage VESS modules he can get.
Dennis Lubert , we already had a discussion about that somewhere. We have slightly better opportunities for hobby stuff (and EV charging) in germany since 3-phase is available everywhere. But it doesn‘t seem as common in the UK and US...
Yeah, I thought 3-phase was as common in the UK as it is in the rest of Europe. Every time a video mentions 3-phase people from all over Europe say it's normal here.
It does seem that in the UK, electricians see the OLEV grant as being extra profit. I was quoted £2050, 1550 after grant, to install a Zappi+hub+eddi. If the electrician gets a 200 trade discount, that's a profit of 1000.
A mate of mine is a sparky and all he does mainly is fit them chargers n he says it's easy money more so with house's with very old switch box's because the bill goes up more. Plus said his profit has gone up more with ev cars becoming more popular
@@amiddled true. He lives 20 minutes away, 15 miles round trip, so four hours work plus one for travel and purchasing, that's £200/hour. Seems pretty good to me.
The lack of diode sense is probably because they simply clamp the square wave output, and use an ADC pin to measure it, so only sample the positive half of the waveform. Monitoring the negative half probably needs another ADC input and another opamp to get the measurement. Only having a quad opamp, already being used for the temperature, voltage and current inputs, along with the plug temp sensor, means they would need another 324 package on the board, and the extra 10 components, plus a semi decent 1V2 bandgap reference again just for it. It might also mean they have to add an external analogue switch mux on as well, if they have run out of ADC input pins. Just wonder if those 50A relays have monitoring contacts, so the micro can tell contact state without having to reset the coils to a default condition. Got some meter relays that have provision for a monitoring microswitch, but which also come with a built in non isolated current shunt integrated into the assembly. Meant for mains metering, so no real need for isolation, and they also came with massive 480VAC 100J MOV units attached to them. I guess the internal power supply is designed to survive operation on 600VAC for long periods with no problems, using a 1kV film capacitor as power reservoir.
Or, they simply didn't read most of the spec but just implemented stuff to make it work. Latching relays can't be used in Norway for example... It needs to be intrinsically safe and never ever (not even bfriefly) put out anything before car has been validated.
I think the RFID tag would be most useful if you have two EVs with different charge settings and you could just hold the tag on the cars key in front of the charger and get a programmed current setting
Congratulations on the explanations, very technical, could you clarify some doubts? Regarding current leakage, does the electronic circuit monitor AC and DC leakage or just 30mA AC? Regarding surge protection, I noticed that there are only varistors, that is, only the protections (8/20us), there should not be a gas spark gap for protection against atmospheric surges (10/350us). Success!
I have recently bought a Renault Zoe which is one of the few vehicles with the 3-phase AC charging available in the UK. It can charge up to 22kW and the older models can charge up to 43kW (under specific circumstances depending on battery SoC and temperature). Whilst it’s unlikely to come across a 3-phase home charger most rapid charging stations have 22kW 3-phase AC available. Have you done much public charging on the CCS port? I’ve heard mixed reports about the reliability and connector faults. The next version of the Zoe will be getting CCS which seems to be the new rapid charging standard in Europe at least.
Only DC charged once and that was just to test it. I understand the chargers used by Ecotricity (DBS?) are a shit-show of unreliability and have specific issues with the Kona.
Maybe the ground cable coming in to the house, but in the domestic homes (farms aside), it isn't connected by default. It simply isn't fused and connected in the upper electric box.
@@ToTheGAMES interesting. in germany we actually do have all three phases connected even in residential buildings. Fused at 63A per apartment (at least ours is). With 3 apartments in my house and a 32A aux feed it can (theoretically) draw over 150kW 😂 not sure if the street supply is rated at that current for each house though
Yeah, Finland too, even in an apartment that was built in the 1950s.. Usually the only connection in an apartment is for the stove. Same goes for detached homes, but traditionally they can also have had a combined heater oil/ electric boiler, which would've used three-phase. This would've also been common from at least the 60s.
The granny charger's lower amperage is for when you're charging at a friend's house and he's going to let you plug in, but he's not comfortable letting you mess around with his breaker box to trace down if you can draw tons of amps. Better to not blow the breaker!
At about 14 minutes in, you mention that the plug is locked into the car while it's charging to prevent arcing, and I find that interesting how different standards solved that problem. Here in North America, we use the J1772 connector which has a lever latch that grabs onto the plug, with a button on the connector that levers the lock off the charge port and informs the EVSE/charger that a disconnect is imminent, which stops the charging. This does mean that anyone can just unplug your cable any time they like (Unless it's a private ones which have a padlock hole in the button. Or if you're a tesla owner who bought an aftermarket lock for the charging adapter...), but it also simplifies the use far more, I feel. Also: I know that public chargers across the pond tend to use your own cable, so a locked connector makes much more sense. Here the public chargers have the cable integrated. We only use a mechanical interlock for CCS/DC fast charging which can't react as quickly, so it must be warned beforehand, and it has to be switched at the charger, I believe. Never tried hitting unlock while it's charging, though.
You are talking about the same country that has the worst Standards for power Plugs. Every other Plug Standard is better. Period. So easy to get shocks from it. I do not wonder that your Car Plus also build to the same low standards
here in Germany it would make total sense to have the three phase charger build into the car, because every residential building has a three phase supply (except old apartments) and with a typical supply to a single family home of 63a three phase even charging with 32a three phase (22kW) should not be a problem.
Germany is always better for anything... But 3-phase supply for domestical purposes is total nonsense, most household appliances uses single phase power supply, so try to equilibrate all of these devices on a 3-ph supply...
@@NIOC630 I mean general household purposes, the house of the average Joe, not the guy that have 4 milling machines in its backyard. Of course for him, 3-ph supply is more adequate.
I'm surprised that 3 phase is so rare around Europe. I live in Austria and there is 3 phase power everywhere. It's actually quite common that you will find a 3 phase 16 Amps socket in the garage of a house. Also in apartments you have 3 phase 16 amps in the kitchen to connect an electric oven.
the UKs electrical system is one of the oldest in the world, single phase feeds was the preferred option in built up areas back then and unfortunately it stuck that way? most of Europe do have 3 phase domestic supplies.
the UKs electrical system is one of the oldest in the world, single phase feeds was the preferred option in built up areas back then and unfortunately it stuck that way? most of Europe do have 3 phase domestic supplies.
Domesticly three phase unavailable. Lol. So far I know only UK and Spain (in EU) has problems with that. Not sure/care if France, but the center-east part of europe, three phase is standard in any domestic area.
In France you can get tri-phase everywhere but needs a special subscription with tri-phased differential..usually it is for people above 18kw requirements or machines
@@donpalmera Three-phase stoves can be nice, especially if you have district heating, and suddenly a pipe breaks when it is -30c outside... In Finland stoves are almost exclusively three-phase.
In denmark, as most of EU, we also have 3-phase i nearly every house, older houses will have 25-32A, while newer houses have 63A (upgradable to 100A). I Thought the UK was on 3-phase as well, and only the americans ran single phase for everything, what a surprise.
The US have two 120s to the consumer unit right ? Ss they can have 240 for big stuff ? ( Kind of like a building site transformer in reverse ?)Seams like a bit of a mess to me , why not just 240 everything and be done with it ?
@@mikeselectricstuff german households have normally 50A 3 phase fuse protection on the meter 63A incoming from the street. if desired you mostly can upgrade to 63 or 80A or 100A meter protection, if the incoming cable from the street to the house is big enough. So if you have a 100A connection you can pull those 63A in the car and have 37 for the rest of the building. its only the initial cost of upgrading your meter base which get changed, upwards of 63A to an indirect measuring meter which current transformers. which requirers mostly a complete change out of the meter cabinet an the connecting wire to the main house fuse. i only have installed 32A three phase charger, but those 63A should come soon...
have you considered probing the board for a UART connection and seeing if you can serially comunicate with the IC in charge of the values determined when you shake?
Excellent review just a thought is the RFI tag actually useful because you could use it to turn off the unit, if the car doesn't disconnect, without having to pull the plug by tapping to set a delayed charge time. This would I assume then stop charging while the timer is running. Then once the charging stops unplug without risk of power arc damage on disconnect?
I dont think this makes the car "let go" of the lock, it just stops charging but that is not the signal for the car to "let go" (unlock) the plug. Disconnect signal must come from either end for car to unlock it.
AFAIK the Renault ZOE is the only EV with a true potential for a DC ground fault atm; they use the electronics for charging as a regulator for the electric motor too, so there's no galvanic separation between battery and AC-socket on the nose of the car. So even if your Kona is very unlikely to get such a fault, DC protection should be in place, as a friend with a ZOE might want to hook up some day. I wouldn't be surprised if future regulations would require AC and DC ground fault protections on each and every house built. Especially with more and more (DC) solar systems and EV's coming to play.
it wasnt a Renault Zoe that caused someone to be electrocuted (this forced the need for DC protection on EV's)! no galvanic isolation theoretically makes an EV more prone to DC side faults but the offending vehicle that caused the issue does have an isolated AC-DC converter!
it wasnt a Renault Zoe that caused someone to be electrocuted (this forced the need for DC protection on EV's)! no galvanic isolation theoretically makes an EV more prone to DC side faults but the offending vehicle that caused the issue does have an isolated AC-DC converter!
Whenever there is 3-phase mentioned on US videos, Europeans will mention that it's nothing special here (pretty much every house and even flats here in Austria have it). I thought 3-phase was as common in the UK as it is in the rest of Europe. Apparently not.
i'm UK and have TP - it's not the norm here. It costs more to have installed. Most farms and pretty much all commercial property are now fitted with TP incoming heads.
Does unit a have an ability to tell a car to stop charging or change current limit to the car without switching off and on the relays? It would make sense to tell the car to stop pulling current when the "charger" detects over temp condition, and only use relays few seconds later, or if secondary temperature (~10 deg C more) threshold is reached. Should be easy to do with firmware and should reduce arcing in relays.
36:25 the earth detection is interesting. I remember having a hell of an issue with my Tesla EVSE in Norway, where their mains earthing is different. I thought my EVSE was dead! Apparently, Tesla's EVSE for Norway have custom firmware which does not check for mains side earth, and it says in big letters "for use in Norway only". My UK spec one just flashed 3 red LEDs (in the manual, as earth fault).
Three phase is only used for long-distance power transmission here in Panama. If you want three phase, you must be an industrial customer and negociate the monthly price directly with the power utility. And most homes only have 14kw breakers, i wish we had 24kw ones like in the UK. So, unless you live in an expensive house (over US$300K) you can forget about charging your beloved electric car. What you will find in abundance, though, is 2 phase. All homes and most businesses have 2 phase connections, with 10kw at 120v per phase. We also use 2 phase for short (less than 250km) power transmission. Expensive homes have 50kw per phase.
In the Netherlands normal homes have a one phase amperage depending on the sort of home. I had a 1x35A connection before and now a 3x25A. Costs around 300 euro extra of charge (construction year home: 2000) for only patching by the network operator. Nice to here from other countries 👍
When you press the button to remove the EVSE from the car, there is a micro switch that trips causing the car to stop charging. This way arcing is avoided.
5:27 In Finland, pretty much every home owner has a three phase socket outdoors. I'm not sure what people typically use them for, but for me it becomes quite handy whenever renting some heavy equipment for renovation/building projects
I think the higher powers are aimed at larger vehicles and small trucks. They probably need higher voltages to achieve those powers - I think some use liquid cooled charge cables!
@@mikeselectricstuff Well it is mainly a network pursued by VW, so will support some of their cars, like the Audi e-Tron (which isn't much of a production car yet), which can already charge at 175kW on them. Supercharger V3 should also be coming in the following years with 250kW for all M3s which are already on the road. Currently the Tesla SpCs are capable of up to 150kW on all current cars. Though most S/X only go up to ~125kW.
The DC fault, are the relays even useable for breaking the current? I kinda expect the relays to arc over if the battery suddenly gets solidly connected to the mains.
Yes because it's just a small amount of leakage current. If it's enough to cause contact issues, you probably have bigger problems to worry about. The chances of both sides of the ( floating) battery connecting to the mains during charging seem remote enough to not be an issue.
Interesting... it appears the Proximity pin is used for different purposes with Type 2 vs the Type 1 connector used in North America. Type 1/J1772 connectors have a physical latch with a microswitch connected to the Proximity Pilot pin. It forms a voltage divider circuit that is connected only to the car side, not the EVSE side. Pushing the latch to remove the connector from the car will cause the car to stop drawing current immediately. It also uses this switch to detect if the connector has been fully seated. The car will not begin drawing current until the switch is no longer being depressed and the control pilot signal is present. (See: openev.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/6000052074-basics-of-sae-j17720) Type 2 appears to use the Proximity pin to specify the current capacity of the cable likely due to "bring your own cable" being a thing for Type 2.. Wouldn't want someone plugging in a cable designed for 16A into a EVSE and car capable of 32A! Interestingly, many cars in NA don't have the ability to lock the J1772 connector to the car. Instead the push button on the connector has a small hole you are meant to put a pad lock through to secure it.
Not in places which don't get cold (Spain, France, Italy, Greece) and places which were in the soviet union. Also the southern states have plenty of houses that were built before the WWIIs, where electrical renovation has not been fully implemented anyway. I think Three-phase still isn't standard in many places, where it doesn't get cold.
@@rkan2In Portugal (next to Spain) every house may choose to be connected to 3-phase, but the majority simply doesn't choose to be because you are billed a fixed amount per month for the kVA rating of your mains connection and with 3 phase you have to pay triple the kVA rating fee.
Yeah... The utilities pricing in places which jack up the pricing like crazy for just having a large fuse should be banned by the EU! Also Spain's solar power regulation is nuts too... You'd be able to live 300 days off from solar in places like Spain, but oh, hey, let's tax solar systems to oblivion, just because the grid cannot handle it.
Hi Mike Great video thanks for your time. I have a question regarding my existing tethered 32 amp charger. I need to extend the length of the charge cable (non mains side). To save on additional expense I have 10 metres of 6mm 4 core CY flexible cable. Can i use this type of cable to replace the shorter existing cable? I realise the existing monitoring conductor is somewhat smaller than 6mm, however i can over come this with an additional connector. My question is does the existing monitoring cable have an internal resistance or something else that might effect the operation of my charger? Pete
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Zencar unit is the same as the Ohme (looks like zencar will build to your spec). The Ohme has a LTE module, SIM card and interestingly GNSS module and antenna inside.
Zencar is reasonably well build, and the two PCBs are nicely separate. It would be trivial to replace the PCB with micro and LCD into something else or to interface to the "power" board with relays, temperature sensor and current transformers and the signal injection thingy, from any other micro or raspberrypi or something by just the connector that already is there (would be still good to use a real time micro for switching off latching relays on the power fail condition quickly). No need to hack anything.
What is the exact spec of the Commando socket you need for a 32A EVSE - there seem to be ten different flavours? Interlock switch sounds like an excellent idea - do they also exist with lockable covers to stop people stealing your power, eg in shared appartement parking? Thanks!
"commando" style sockets are (with the exception of some rare special variants) specified by voltage, current rating and number of poles. The one you want is 200-250V (may be listed by suppliers the nominal voltage of 230V) 32A 2P+E/P+N+E
You could also install a relay on the circuit that you'd control from your flat or remotely. I put a relay on my electric stove that is powered off by switch or me setting the alarm so I never leave the house having forgot to turn off the stove.
Even more so in Continental Europe. I have a 3 phase 11,4kW station at home and the standard power on the public city charging stations is 3 phase 22kW AC, mainly because they are installed on sidewalks and are much smaller than the DC capable stations. Just FYI the BMW i3 takes 3 phase AC.
@@SierraLimaOscar In Poland, Germany and Switzerland I have never seen a house or a property without a 3 phase power. Similarly in few other surrounding countries, but I don't have that good of a sample to be sure.
Here in Panama you will only find three phase power at factories and everything else is two phase. Here, you won't ever see a home without a two phase breaker.
I have never known of anyone, in the parts of the U.K. which I have visited, who has domestic 3-phase electricity. It's common for industrial premises. Anyone can have a 3-phase supply retro-fitted to their domestic property, but it can cost more than the value of the property which needs the supply.
Mike (or anyone that knows), can the dc input be used as an output? It would seem obvious that the vehicle would prevent accidental discharge , rev polarity etc. so do they have a mode defined to allow 5he vehicle battery to be used as a power pack ? (I'm thinking here about the proposed use of vehicle batteries as grid storage devices)
Bi directional current flow will be included in CCS charging somewhere along 2020. My guess is that there might be cars supporting Vehicle to grid end of 2021
There's a normally open relay that isolates the terminals, otherwise straight to the battery. Note he put his fingers on the terminals and he's still alive.
I wanted to buy the Khons one in three phase version but the lack of some of the current settings prevented me from getting one. Ended with a muuuuuch more expensive Juice Booster 2. I contacted Khons and asked if they could add more current settings in the firmware, but was ignored. If only Khons had more current settings... Please add the brands in the video title for potential buyers to easily find this excellent review.
Funky, sorry to hear that. Penny from KHONS. Yes, our charger can add any rete from 6A to 32A. And I also like Juice booster though more expensive of course. Hope you enjoyed your car and charger. Cheers.
The problem is that the Schuko outlets doesn't age with much dignity. People keep pulling the plug on their coffee makers, vacuum cleaners, etc, with the machines still on, and with the small contact area in these connectors the pitting that occurs when you do so simply don't leave enough area left for the high(ish) currents to go through, and they overheat. They are rated for 16 amps, and with a fresh plug in a fresh outlet it will happily do that all day long, or if you only do it intermittently it's also fine (we run a small inverter welder at work that pulls around 17 amps, but it's normally only on for at most a minute at a time and rarely at max power). The Swedish department for electrical safety recommends you limit your EV-charger to 8 amps if you charge from Schuko, and as a principle don't recommend that you charge EVs from plugged in chargers more than temporarily at all.
Then there is also the risk of arcing the more current you pull through a plug, which is the reason why the don't recommend using industrial connectors (CEE) either, even though these have a lot bigger connection area relative to their rated current. If you pull out a three phase 32 amp connector under full load, you're in for a bad time.
For this, the UK plugs are a lot better, with their larger lugs. It should be pointed out that there is a lot more surface area on the UK plugs than on the schuko, yet the schuko is rated for 16 amps, and the UK model only for 13 amps. Although my favourite is the Swiss system. All the different size plugs are compatible with eachother (in the "right" direction), i.e. you can plug a 10 amp plug in a 16 amp outlet, you can plug a single phase plug in a three phase outlet, and all outlets take the "Europlug". Also they're polarized, as opposed to schuko. The only thing I miss with their system is that there is no possibility to change which phase you load in a three phase contact, so if you want to do that you have to install it with the wrong phase on the wrong pin.
@@Tjita1 true, I did have to replace the socket, the 8 year old one did get hot. The arcing won't be an issue because i always unplug the car first before unplugging the cable.
I remember spending hours scraping that stuff off of Mitsubishi Video recorders why back then, I think it was used to restrict the life expectancy of the player, in this it could restrict the life expectancy of the user!
I remember spending hours scraping that stuff off of Mitsubishi Video recorders why back then, I think it was used to restrict the life expectancy of the player, in this it could restrict the life expectancy of the user!
Hi, nice video, (i have old leaf). There is many ev rewievs out there, but I would love to hear your opinion... maybe after you have it for some time...also why kona? Thanks, good to see video from you and good luck with the car
A J1772 will stop powering the car as soon as you press the release latch/button on the handle to remove it. Your EVSE clearly has the same button. Are you sure it doesn’t work the same way as J1772? As far as I know, you can’t manually turn off the power from any EVSE other than by pressing that clip to remove the handle.
Hi Mike you are back and you have an electric car this is great...and maybe you will never drive an ICE Car...i have an Hyundai IONIC and i did the same Experiments with the Hyundai Box (you need a Hacksaw for this Job) i build a Electronic circuit all in the Car connector....without any Box..... Next i am interested in the CCS Protocol.....not absolutely shure how to start...this is not an easy task.. but i am shure there is a lot going on on the Bus.... maybe this is a job for you...!?
The standards here in the states are a bit different. First off, 8A at 120v is the default charge current (at least on my chevy volt) which is just sooooooo slow. The cars can charge fine off 240V though, and the OEM chevy charger can be modded for 240V use IIRC The biggest difference is the charge connector, its totally different. The connectors can be removed by the user while the car is charging, however the charger monitors the state of the charger cable's release lever and shuts off the relays once you push it. I have seen cars that can lock the charger in to keep dipshits from unplugging your car because LOL HE'S OUT OF POWER but it isn't on all of them. As far as the electronics, they seem to have done communication the same.
On my mother's nissan leaf when you push in the release button/leaver on the cable contact it automatically stop the charging BEFORE you actually start pulling out the charging cable, have you checked if yours are the same?
Thats a feature of the type 1 plug, these are type 2. The car locks the cable in place when it charges, you can't unlock it (some may have a mechanical cable release).
never own a grey car, according to the boffins its the hardest colour to see, after owning a grey morris 1300 l have to agree, lt was forever running into other cars when my wife was at the wheel, they must not have seen her and could not get out of her way
Ive been considering a Kona as well. But ive not made the plunge yet. They say it does a real world 300 miles per full charge. How are you finding it so far ?.
It depends on temperature and driving style. I have recently done a journey of 248 miles and arrived with 75 miles estimated range available, giving a potential 100% range of 323 miles. This was achieved on a warm day keeping cruising to 60mph with the occasional overtaking at up to 70mph. Since September 2018 I have recorded each day's mileage and each charge session, and have averaged 306 miles per 100% charge. I read somewhere that, above about 50mph increasing the cruising speed by 10mph knocks about 13% off the potential range. I have not measured this myself, but, on the occasions that I have pushed on at 70mph, the range does decrease. Over the past 9 months ( autumn, winter and spring) I have averaged 4.785 miles per KWh.
How long before the fake units turn up with a cable passing right through and a little circuit to generate a fixed mark space ratio for one current. Perhaps even coming supplied with a fuse bypass for a 13A plug to allow turbo charging from an ordinary socket.
I think it will be a while before EVs get cheap enough that people would risk using chrapo crap chargers. I predict that before that we'll see charge cables with inbuilt rippling EL wire, like those USB cables.
Like this???
th-cam.com/video/dQw4w9WgXcQ/w-d-xo.html
Also I've not tried it, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some cars' on-board charger would be unhappy seeing mains before it had asserted its "charging" state and shut down
@@mikeselectricstuff Yup, I'm pretty sure the car should go into a "EVSE Fault" state and refuse to take any power.
judging by fairly small relays for 30A, at normal operation they are switched with no or little load. This is probably why it can not interrupt charging by itself. So the car most likely can handle being plugged directly to mains without physical damage, but it might set some errors, loose warranty or so.
I was half hoping you would start taking apart your Kona!
In Czech Republic, almost all houses have 3 phase. The most common connections ranges from 3x16A to 3x25A. 3x32A is also quite common for larger houses, or if there is a heat pump or another big appliance installed.
Yes, it is common in places which get colder and weren't in the soviet union...
Mike buys electric car.
Hey Mike, how does it drive?
> Mike: drive?
thats what its used for????
fuck that iv got my electric ofice chair
Hi Mike missed u . Welcome back.
Great to see another Kona owner! Congrats on the car 😀 Great explanation on the charging protocol and the tests. Thanks! Hope to see some Kona-specific hacks from you in the future 🙂
I didn't even know they do these interlocked "industrial" plugs. In Poland where most homeowners have three phase installation we just put our 400V sockets (the 4/5 prong versions of this one in various size depending on current capability) high enough above the floor ;) Usually the spring in socket cover is hard enough to discourage a young electrician. And to be honest if there's this kind of socket in the room usually electrocution is the least concerning thing - I'd be more scared about my kid trying to learn how table saw works.
How did we even survive our childhood? All those safety features are becoming increasingly annoying. I have a hard time finding distribution extension cords without the safety covers here in Austria. I hate those because it makes plugging stuff in harder and sometimes the covers catch on the contacts of cheap euro-plugs. And yeah, I'd consider even the wood chisels in my workshop more dangerous that the 3-phase outlet that the drill press right beside them is plugged into.
I have been owning the zencar evse for 3 years, works perfectly with Renault zoe, Tesla model s, jaguar i-pace
Type E and F sockets that are used in most EU countries are rated for 16A, that's true, but only for 4 minutes. The continuous rating is just 10A as well.
In Finland recommendations were updated in 2016 to such that by default a car should charge at 8A. The user can increase the current at their discretion (i.e. if they know their system will handle it). Such usage is comparable to motor and passenger compartment heaters being used simultaneously, which has been common here for decades. Generally the worst you can cause is a molten socket, which is mostly an inconvenience and not a hazard.
You can get sockets that are specified to handle 16A continuously. Regardless, it's mostly a common sense matter of the temperature of the contacts. An old, worn-out, cheap or dirty socket will do worse than a good new one.
Also, wiring matters. If the wiring has been routed through insulation, it will get much hotter than if it was installed on the surface of a wall. High temperature of wiring will slowly degrade the electrical insulation of the wiring.
In Finland, Schuko sockets are tested to handle 22A for 1 hour.
Tesla charges at 13A by default from a Schuko.
Hello, everyone. Here is Penny Peng from KHONS. If you have any question about KHONS. Just contact me directly. And I just want to say very good video, though it seems KHONS charger not so cool. We will keep update products and improving.
Hi Penny, i have a Khons 3-phase 32A (22kW) charge adapter and it works great charging a Tesla Model S with dual chargers in outback Australia.
I would have never guessed that the communication between chargers is as basic as a 1kHz square wave, you would think they would have developed a digital protocol to communicate between the car and the charger, for example for the car to identify itself for payment. Intresting!
Rapid chargers go to the other extreme - Homeplug greenPhy with loads of layers on top, where a simple UART would have sufficed. That does support car ID for billing etc.
@@mikeselectricstuff Some of the chargers at where I work actually are very picky, connecting the wrong car locks the cable (at the pole-side, and sometimes also at the car-side) and you need to call the billing company to disable the lock. I have no idea why you would design something like that, but it really feels like a Trusted Computing kind of thing).
You could play semantics since a square wave (high - low, no middle ground) is digital if you work on the marketing team.
Given the ubiquity of CAN in automotive I was also surprised there simply wasn't a differential CAN pair and a standard protocol identifying the charging parameters and more.
@@mikeselectricstuff Great video mike, very extensive with your testing which is great. ZC is coming out with a new TUV certified t-B certified version shortly in 4 weeks so I've read. I would be very interested in you testing that new updated (safer) version if that was of interest to you at all? Then you can also make a comparison as to what you can see & feel they've improved in terms of quality + safety also which would be a great update to this video.
Nice to see an OpenEVSE on the wall. I fitted mine this week to charge an Outlander PHEV.
3 phase is very common in Germany, Switzerland, Austria, etc. Having roadtripped a lot, I was surprised at how many level 2 chargers were 3 phase. Very useful on my Model S. 17kW on board charger.
I really like the way you 've affixed that 16 amp outlet on the wall there.
At first, I was trying to figure out your reasoning for having the socket pointing plumb down rather than the normal intended slight angle outward.
And then it struck me. The longer the plug, the more it will protrude from the wall and the more likely to get knocked and bashed.
I raise my hat to you, Sir for your unassailable logic.
>
A very comprehensive video. Thanks for going through all the pros, cons, and risks of these.
I think the latching in of the plug, done by the car, is more of a security thing. My car doesn't lock the plug, but disconnection under load still can't happen because the latch button on the plug breaks the pilot signal. That way, both the car and the EVSE shut down before you have a chance to pull the plug out.
also to stop people from stealing your charge leads when charging at a public charger
OK, so you're already my favourite youtuber just for the electronics stuff and now you're getting into EV stuff? That's my game! If you want to know or do anything related to EVs, hit me up, I make extender batteries for the old Nissan Leaf and, hopefully in the future, other EVs as well and I've also worked and am working on EVSEs.
I'm very interested in replacing the factory sounds in the "virtual engine" sound modules - would like to get hold of one to investigate.
@@mikeselectricstuff The VESS sound. But... you have the best sound! I've built an amp board for my Leaf specifically to replace my 'scraping brakes' pedestrian alert sound to the Kona spaceship sound... So for EV-ethical reasons I cannot assist you in this endeavour ;)
I don't know enough about Hyundai's typical electronics layout to really help with this, but on the Leaf it is not feasible to actually replace the sound file as it's hard-coded in the flash of a weird Panasonic MCU that I can't find any useful data for, and which has fused-off memory. Hence the workaround. I think this is probably also the fastest way to go about this on the Kona. I have a contact at the biggest Hyundai repair center in the Netherlands, I'll keep an eye out for any salvage VESS modules he can get.
@@mikeselectricstuff nice idea , you could make it sound like knackered perkins diesel !
You could install a push button and resistor to the temp sensor plug as a form of power stop.
In germany 3 phase is basically available in every household where you would want to charge a car (own house with garage etc.)
Dennis Lubert , we already had a discussion about that somewhere.
We have slightly better opportunities for hobby stuff (and EV charging) in germany since 3-phase is available everywhere. But it doesn‘t seem as common in the UK and US...
Yeah, I thought 3-phase was as common in the UK as it is in the rest of Europe. Every time a video mentions 3-phase people from all over Europe say it's normal here.
An outstanding technical review of these 2 chargers - very well done!
It does seem that in the UK, electricians see the OLEV grant as being extra profit.
I was quoted £2050, 1550 after grant, to install a Zappi+hub+eddi. If the electrician gets a 200 trade discount, that's a profit of 1000.
A mate of mine is a sparky and all he does mainly is fit them chargers n he says it's easy money more so with house's with very old switch box's because the bill goes up more. Plus said his profit has gone up more with ev cars becoming more popular
Paul Mansfield That’s not all profit. Electrician needs to pay for a van, equipment, training, accounting etc. It isn’t all free money.
@@amiddled true. He lives 20 minutes away, 15 miles round trip, so four hours work plus one for travel and purchasing, that's £200/hour. Seems pretty good to me.
@Dusty 99 ?
Well I don’t think you left anything out in that review, thank you for your work and time.
no teardown of the car? xD
Patience...
@@mikeselectricstuff Awesome :) that Kona should have proper and interesting power electronics!
Great to see you again Mike!
The lack of diode sense is probably because they simply clamp the square wave output, and use an ADC pin to measure it, so only sample the positive half of the waveform. Monitoring the negative half probably needs another ADC input and another opamp to get the measurement. Only having a quad opamp, already being used for the temperature, voltage and current inputs, along with the plug temp sensor, means they would need another 324 package on the board, and the extra 10 components, plus a semi decent 1V2 bandgap reference again just for it. It might also mean they have to add an external analogue switch mux on as well, if they have run out of ADC input pins.
Just wonder if those 50A relays have monitoring contacts, so the micro can tell contact state without having to reset the coils to a default condition. Got some meter relays that have provision for a monitoring microswitch, but which also come with a built in non isolated current shunt integrated into the assembly. Meant for mains metering, so no real need for isolation, and they also came with massive 480VAC 100J MOV units attached to them. I guess the internal power supply is designed to survive operation on 600VAC for long periods with no problems, using a 1kV film capacitor as power reservoir.
Or, they simply didn't read most of the spec but just implemented stuff to make it work.
Latching relays can't be used in Norway for example... It needs to be intrinsically safe and never ever (not even bfriefly) put out anything before car has been validated.
I think the RFID tag would be most useful if you have two EVs with different charge settings and you could just hold the tag on the cars key in front of the charger and get a programmed current setting
9=6+3
2x3=6
9-6=3
half life 3 confirmed!
21:49
36:55
duplicate clips ?
Congratulations on the explanations, very technical, could you clarify some doubts? Regarding current leakage, does the electronic circuit monitor AC and DC leakage or just 30mA AC? Regarding surge protection, I noticed that there are only varistors, that is, only the protections (8/20us), there should not be a gas spark gap for protection against atmospheric surges (10/350us). Success!
There’s a company called Ohme charger, that uses this Zencar unit with modification - and its sold in Ireland and the UK
I have recently bought a Renault Zoe which is one of the few vehicles with the 3-phase AC charging available in the UK. It can charge up to 22kW and the older models can charge up to 43kW (under specific circumstances depending on battery SoC and temperature). Whilst it’s unlikely to come across a 3-phase home charger most rapid charging stations have 22kW 3-phase AC available.
Have you done much public charging on the CCS port? I’ve heard mixed reports about the reliability and connector faults. The next version of the Zoe will be getting CCS which seems to be the new rapid charging standard in Europe at least.
Only DC charged once and that was just to test it. I understand the chargers used by Ecotricity (DBS?) are a shit-show of unreliability and have specific issues with the Kona.
In the Netherlands every house has a three phase connection.
Maybe the ground cable coming in to the house, but in the domestic homes (farms aside), it isn't connected by default. It simply isn't fused and connected in the upper electric box.
@@ToTheGAMES interesting. in germany we actually do have all three phases connected even in residential buildings. Fused at 63A per apartment (at least ours is). With 3 apartments in my house and a 32A aux feed it can (theoretically) draw over 150kW 😂 not sure if the street supply is rated at that current for each house though
Yeah, Finland too, even in an apartment that was built in the 1950s.. Usually the only connection in an apartment is for the stove. Same goes for detached homes, but traditionally they can also have had a combined heater oil/ electric boiler, which would've used three-phase. This would've also been common from at least the 60s.
You're back! Why do you leave us for so long? 😔
12:09 Product placement :)
I noticed Fran had one too. I need to get the new one.
My Chevy Bolt has the scheduling functionality in the car. So you can delay charging if you get different rates at night.
leaf and i3 also have this
As far as interlock plugs keeping kids fingers out.... I worked out how to defeat an ordinary UK 3 pin socket when I was 8 or 9.
Lots of us did I imagine. :)
About time we had a video from you! 😊. Excellent video!
Zencar is quite popular among Chinese Tesla owners since the vehicle doesn't come with a mobile charger by default.
Haha, what great value /s
So what's in the hyundai charger?
Forgot to mention this in the vid - see electricstuff.co.uk/evse/evse.html
@@suesanimals2731 Who made those terminal blocks?
Well your alive. Also teardown ! ( of the car)
Great technical review. I imagine the hard wired wall box options now available would be the sane electronics just in a different case.
Great video. Glad to see you back and with an EV!
The granny charger's lower amperage is for when you're charging at a friend's house and he's going to let you plug in, but he's not comfortable letting you mess around with his breaker box to trace down if you can draw tons of amps. Better to not blow the breaker!
Very informative, thank you. I think the airplane symbol is a "ready for takeoff " sign, someone there is a airplane fan.
So those gadgets are not chargers at all, they are power controllers. The conversion is done in the car.
At about 14 minutes in, you mention that the plug is locked into the car while it's charging to prevent arcing, and I find that interesting how different standards solved that problem.
Here in North America, we use the J1772 connector which has a lever latch that grabs onto the plug, with a button on the connector that levers the lock off the charge port and informs the EVSE/charger that a disconnect is imminent, which stops the charging. This does mean that anyone can just unplug your cable any time they like (Unless it's a private ones which have a padlock hole in the button. Or if you're a tesla owner who bought an aftermarket lock for the charging adapter...), but it also simplifies the use far more, I feel.
Also: I know that public chargers across the pond tend to use your own cable, so a locked connector makes much more sense. Here the public chargers have the cable integrated.
We only use a mechanical interlock for CCS/DC fast charging which can't react as quickly, so it must be warned beforehand, and it has to be switched at the charger, I believe. Never tried hitting unlock while it's charging, though.
You are talking about the same country that has the worst Standards for power Plugs. Every other Plug Standard is better. Period. So easy to get shocks from it. I do not wonder that your Car Plus also build to the same low standards
BIG CLIVE WAS RIGHT GOOD VIDEO, Thank you good info and clear and to the point
where you mention the casing is just ABS it looks like it says PC ABS which is a blend with polycarbonate. A lot tougher!
The Chargemaster/Polar home charge units don't test for the diode either.
You could stop the charging with the delay charging feature
here in Germany it would make total sense to have the three phase charger build into the car, because every residential building has a three phase supply (except old apartments) and with a typical supply to a single family home of 63a three phase even charging with 32a three phase (22kW) should not be a problem.
Except very old apartments? Wasn't 3-phase almost standard in new construction and upgrades like after 30s already?
Germany is always better for anything... But 3-phase supply for domestical purposes is total nonsense, most household appliances uses single phase power supply, so try to equilibrate all of these devices on a 3-ph supply...
@@LambdaWave84 It is nonsense until you regularly have days when it gets to -20c :) *and also have at least a couple nuclear plants.
@@LambdaWave84 tell that to anyone with a backyard bigger than a garage and with electric cooking needs more than heating a can of beans.
@@NIOC630 I mean general household purposes, the house of the average Joe, not the guy that have 4 milling machines in its backyard. Of course for him, 3-ph supply is more adequate.
Can you test dc earth leakage protection on a Tesla portable charger?
I'm surprised that 3 phase is so rare around Europe. I live in Austria and there is 3 phase power everywhere. It's actually quite common that you will find a 3 phase 16 Amps socket in the garage of a house. Also in apartments you have 3 phase 16 amps in the kitchen to connect an electric oven.
We have 3 phase portable charger 16A 11kw,with AC /DC protection
Here in the Netherlands 3 phase 16A is the domestic standard so you should be able to charge at 11 kW at home.
the UKs electrical system is one of the oldest in the world, single phase feeds was the preferred option in built up areas back then and unfortunately it stuck that way? most of Europe do have 3 phase domestic supplies.
the UKs electrical system is one of the oldest in the world, single phase feeds was the preferred option in built up areas back then and unfortunately it stuck that way? most of Europe do have 3 phase domestic supplies.
Did you ever do a tour of the PCB wall 'installation' visible at 1:25?
it's alright I've found the origin story th-cam.com/video/XPU72VmtHuY/w-d-xo.html
That was an interesting video. I can only guess you're going to make some electrical/electronic modifications to the car in the future...
Domesticly three phase unavailable. Lol. So far I know only UK and Spain (in EU) has problems with that. Not sure/care if France, but the center-east part of europe, three phase is standard in any domestic area.
Three phase in every house but you have to live near gits like you. Not sure if it's worth it really.
In France you can get tri-phase everywhere but needs a special subscription with tri-phased differential..usually it is for people above 18kw requirements or machines
@@donpalmera Three-phase stoves can be nice, especially if you have district heating, and suddenly a pipe breaks when it is -30c outside... In Finland stoves are almost exclusively three-phase.
This was a brilliant video - thank you so much.
In denmark, as most of EU, we also have 3-phase i nearly every house, older houses will have 25-32A, while newer houses have 63A (upgradable to 100A).
I Thought the UK was on 3-phase as well, and only the americans ran single phase for everything, what a surprise.
There is 3-phase in the street, but houses typically only get one of them.
I thought that too, until I saw Photonicinduction having that stupid singlephase distribution panel. :-/ :-/
The US have two 120s to the consumer unit right ? Ss they can have 240 for big stuff ? ( Kind of like a building site transformer in reverse ?)Seams like a bit of a mess to me , why not just 240 everything and be done with it ?
@@andljoy it's called split phase and actually kind of useful.
@@andljoy US uses split-phase, it's not "two phase" .. it's just a single phase @ 240v.
I want to know how you parked that car in that tiny garage :)
Carefully - about 100mm total clearance at the sides to the folded mirrors.
@@mikeselectricstuff how... How did you get out!?
@@mikeselectricstuff Did you measure the available space before making the choice to buy it or was it a gamble to see if you could make it fit?
You can charge at up to 43kW three-phase AC with the Renault Zoe, as it only has a Type 2 connection and not a CCS connection for DC rapid charging
Buy how many 43kw charge points are there? - AIUI most are 32A, so 7 or 22kw single or 3-phase.
@@mikeselectricstuff Most Ecotricity ElectricHighway and 100kW DC fast chargers that have a Type2 plug support 64A 3ph charging.
@@mikeselectricstuff german households have normally 50A 3 phase fuse protection on the meter 63A incoming from the street.
if desired you mostly can upgrade to 63 or 80A or 100A meter protection, if the incoming cable from the street to the house is big enough.
So if you have a 100A connection you can pull those 63A in the car and have 37 for the rest of the building.
its only the initial cost of upgrading your meter base which get changed, upwards of 63A to an indirect measuring meter which current transformers.
which requirers mostly a complete change out of the meter cabinet an the connecting wire to the main house fuse.
i only have installed 32A three phase charger, but those 63A should come soon...
Unlike most EVs the Zoe will simply not charge when it detects an eart fault. Which is a good thing of course.
@@ingeborgsvensson4896 The Zoe is the only mass produced EV with a non-isolated OBC, therfore a ground-fault detection is crucial for the Zoe
have you considered probing the board for a UART connection and seeing if you can serially comunicate with the IC in charge of the values determined when you shake?
Jeez, with the hardware store cable grommets that Hyundai charger looks home made
Excellent review just a thought is the RFI tag actually useful because you could use it to turn off the unit, if the car doesn't disconnect, without having to pull the plug by tapping to set a delayed charge time. This would I assume then stop charging while the timer is running. Then once the charging stops unplug without risk of power arc damage on disconnect?
I dont think this makes the car "let go" of the lock, it just stops charging but that is not the signal for the car to "let go" (unlock) the plug. Disconnect signal must come from either end for car to unlock it.
AFAIK the Renault ZOE is the only EV with a true potential for a DC ground fault atm; they use the electronics for charging as a regulator for the electric motor too, so there's no galvanic separation between battery and AC-socket on the nose of the car.
So even if your Kona is very unlikely to get such a fault, DC protection should be in place, as a friend with a ZOE might want to hook up some day.
I wouldn't be surprised if future regulations would require AC and DC ground fault protections on each and every house built. Especially with more and more (DC) solar systems and EV's coming to play.
it wasnt a Renault Zoe that caused someone to be electrocuted (this forced the need for DC protection on EV's)! no galvanic isolation theoretically makes an EV more prone to DC side faults but the offending vehicle that caused the issue does have an isolated AC-DC converter!
it wasnt a Renault Zoe that caused someone to be electrocuted (this forced the need for DC protection on EV's)! no galvanic isolation theoretically makes an EV more prone to DC side faults but the offending vehicle that caused the issue does have an isolated AC-DC converter!
One of the best reviews I have seen. Thanks
Whenever there is 3-phase mentioned on US videos, Europeans will mention that it's nothing special here (pretty much every house and even flats here in Austria have it). I thought 3-phase was as common in the UK as it is in the rest of Europe. Apparently not.
i'm UK and have TP - it's not the norm here. It costs more to have installed. Most farms and pretty much all commercial property are now fitted with TP incoming heads.
Does unit a have an ability to tell a car to stop charging or change current limit to the car without switching off and on the relays? It would make sense to tell the car to stop pulling current when the "charger" detects over temp condition, and only use relays few seconds later, or if secondary temperature (~10 deg C more) threshold is reached. Should be easy to do with firmware and should reduce arcing in relays.
36:25 the earth detection is interesting. I remember having a hell of an issue with my Tesla EVSE in Norway, where their mains earthing is different. I thought my EVSE was dead! Apparently, Tesla's EVSE for Norway have custom firmware which does not check for mains side earth, and it says in big letters "for use in Norway only". My UK spec one just flashed 3 red LEDs (in the manual, as earth fault).
90% of the modern ( after 1950) homes here in Sweden has 3 phase put in. weird i had no idea it was an issue in other countries=) oh well...
Three phase is only used for long-distance power transmission here in Panama. If you want three phase, you must be an industrial customer and negociate the monthly price directly with the power utility. And most homes only have 14kw breakers, i wish we had 24kw ones like in the UK. So, unless you live in an expensive house (over US$300K) you can forget about charging your beloved electric car. What you will find in abundance, though, is 2 phase. All homes and most businesses have 2 phase connections, with 10kw at 120v per phase. We also use 2 phase for short (less than 250km) power transmission. Expensive homes have 50kw per phase.
@@imeakdo7 Hi... Actually most homes in the UK have a 100 amp connection which is actually around 24 Kw.
@@kletops46 thank you.
Haha yeah, I live in a single bedroom apt, and I have 3ph 400V
In the Netherlands normal homes have a one phase amperage depending on the sort of home. I had a 1x35A connection before and now a 3x25A. Costs around 300 euro extra of charge (construction year home: 2000) for only patching by the network operator. Nice to here from other countries 👍
In New Zealand all car charging set ups require a type B RCD. It's in out laws and has to be installed
But EV-specific regs probably don't apply to a generic 32A outlet that isn't specifically for EV charging... just sayin'
When you press the button to remove the EVSE from the car, there is a micro switch that trips causing the car to stop charging. This way arcing is avoided.
Excellent explanation. Subscribed and will be looking through some more of your videos.
5:27 In Finland, pretty much every home owner has a three phase socket outdoors. I'm not sure what people typically use them for, but for me it becomes quite handy whenever renting some heavy equipment for renovation/building projects
Aren't the most powerful chargers already something like 250kW while 175kW charging can already be used with Ionity chargers.
Yes but in practice not many cars will allow that rate - the Kona is supposed to be able to do 100kW but I think the most anyone has seen is 58.
I think the higher powers are aimed at larger vehicles and small trucks. They probably need higher voltages to achieve those powers - I think some use liquid cooled charge cables!
@@mikeselectricstuff Well it is mainly a network pursued by VW, so will support some of their cars, like the Audi e-Tron (which isn't much of a production car yet), which can already charge at 175kW on them. Supercharger V3 should also be coming in the following years with 250kW for all M3s which are already on the road. Currently the Tesla SpCs are capable of up to 150kW on all current cars. Though most S/X only go up to ~125kW.
The DC fault, are the relays even useable for breaking the current?
I kinda expect the relays to arc over if the battery suddenly gets solidly connected to the mains.
Yes because it's just a small amount of leakage current. If it's enough to cause contact issues, you probably have bigger problems to worry about. The chances of both sides of the ( floating) battery connecting to the mains during charging seem remote enough to not be an issue.
Interesting... it appears the Proximity pin is used for different purposes with Type 2 vs the Type 1 connector used in North America.
Type 1/J1772 connectors have a physical latch with a microswitch connected to the Proximity Pilot pin. It forms a voltage divider circuit that is connected only to the car side, not the EVSE side. Pushing the latch to remove the connector from the car will cause the car to stop drawing current immediately. It also uses this switch to detect if the connector has been fully seated. The car will not begin drawing current until the switch is no longer being depressed and the control pilot signal is present. (See: openev.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/6000052074-basics-of-sae-j17720)
Type 2 appears to use the Proximity pin to specify the current capacity of the cable likely due to "bring your own cable" being a thing for Type 2.. Wouldn't want someone plugging in a cable designed for 16A into a EVSE and car capable of 32A!
Interestingly, many cars in NA don't have the ability to lock the J1772 connector to the car. Instead the push button on the connector has a small hole you are meant to put a pad lock through to secure it.
3 pahse outlets are quite popular in European homes.
Not in places which don't get cold (Spain, France, Italy, Greece) and places which were in the soviet union. Also the southern states have plenty of houses that were built before the WWIIs, where electrical renovation has not been fully implemented anyway. I think Three-phase still isn't standard in many places, where it doesn't get cold.
@@rkan2In Portugal (next to Spain) every house may choose to be connected to 3-phase, but the majority simply doesn't choose to be because you are billed a fixed amount per month for the kVA rating of your mains connection and with 3 phase you have to pay triple the kVA rating fee.
Yeah... The utilities pricing in places which jack up the pricing like crazy for just having a large fuse should be banned by the EU! Also Spain's solar power regulation is nuts too... You'd be able to live 300 days off from solar in places like Spain, but oh, hey, let's tax solar systems to oblivion, just because the grid cannot handle it.
Zencar won me over. I'm buying it, it also has the chips tagged and not coated in goo.
Hi Mike Great video thanks for your time. I have a question regarding my existing tethered 32 amp charger. I need to extend the length of the charge cable (non mains side). To save on additional expense I have 10 metres of 6mm 4 core CY flexible cable. Can i use this type of cable to replace the shorter existing cable? I realise the existing monitoring conductor is somewhat smaller than 6mm, however i can over come this with an additional connector. My question is does the existing monitoring cable have an internal resistance or something else that might effect the operation of my charger? Pete
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Zencar unit is the same as the Ohme (looks like zencar will build to your spec). The Ohme has a LTE module, SIM card and interestingly GNSS module and antenna inside.
Zencar is reasonably well build, and the two PCBs are nicely separate. It would be trivial to replace the PCB with micro and LCD into something else or to interface to the "power" board with relays, temperature sensor and current transformers and the signal injection thingy, from any other micro or raspberrypi or something by just the connector that already is there (would be still good to use a real time micro for switching off latching relays on the power fail condition quickly). No need to hack anything.
What is the exact spec of the Commando socket you need for a 32A EVSE - there seem to be ten different flavours? Interlock switch sounds like an excellent idea - do they also exist with lockable covers to stop people stealing your power, eg in shared appartement parking? Thanks!
The connector is standard - blue 32A single-phase 32A. I'm sure some interlocked ones have padlockable switches
"commando" style sockets are (with the exception of some rare special variants) specified by voltage, current rating and number of poles. The one you want is 200-250V (may be listed by suppliers the nominal voltage of 230V) 32A 2P+E/P+N+E
can run them in reverse so if an unwanted car connects, you flatten their battery to power your apartment
Thanks for the information!
You could also install a relay on the circuit that you'd control from your flat or remotely. I put a relay on my electric stove that is powered off by switch or me setting the alarm so I never leave the house having forgot to turn off the stove.
Mike, 3-phase at home is pretty common in Europe. Even in UK. I would say it is more often available than not actually in housing.
Even more so in Continental Europe. I have a 3 phase 11,4kW station at home and the standard power on the public city charging stations is 3 phase 22kW AC, mainly because they are installed on sidewalks and are much smaller than the DC capable stations.
Just FYI the BMW i3 takes 3 phase AC.
@@SierraLimaOscar In Poland, Germany and Switzerland I have never seen a house or a property without a 3 phase power. Similarly in few other surrounding countries, but I don't have that good of a sample to be sure.
@@movax20h Yes, That's what I said. 3 phase hookup is the norm in continental Europe.
Here in Panama you will only find three phase power at factories and everything else is two phase. Here, you won't ever see a home without a two phase breaker.
I have never known of anyone, in the parts of the U.K. which I have visited, who has domestic 3-phase electricity. It's common for industrial premises. Anyone can have a 3-phase supply retro-fitted to their domestic property, but it can cost more than the value of the property which needs the supply.
Mike (or anyone that knows), can the dc input be used as an output? It would seem obvious that the vehicle would prevent accidental discharge , rev polarity etc. so do they have a mode defined to allow 5he vehicle battery to be used as a power pack ? (I'm thinking here about the proposed use of vehicle batteries as grid storage devices)
Yup there is a vehicle to grid protocol, I know its being used with some leafs www.ovoenergy.com/electric-cars/vehicle-to-grid-charger
Bi directional current flow will be included in CCS charging somewhere along 2020. My guess is that there might be cars supporting Vehicle to grid end of 2021
There's a normally open relay that isolates the terminals, otherwise straight to the battery. Note he put his fingers on the terminals and he's still alive.
Car teardown, when?
We demand an electric swap, preferably from a Tesla, but anything goes, of course!
I wanted to buy the Khons one in three phase version but the lack of some of the current settings prevented me from getting one. Ended with a muuuuuch more expensive Juice Booster 2. I contacted Khons and asked if they could add more current settings in the firmware, but was ignored. If only Khons had more current settings...
Please add the brands in the video title for potential buyers to easily find this excellent review.
The names are in the meta tags so a search for the names ought to find the vid
Funky, sorry to hear that. Penny from KHONS. Yes, our charger can add any rete from 6A to 32A. And I also like Juice booster though more expensive of course. Hope you enjoyed your car and charger. Cheers.
Any reason they are so expensive? The gubbins don't look that costly?
The connectors and cable are still quite expensive, plus with EVs starting at £25K+, there isn't much price pressure
Did you test the open evse for the same safety features and where did you purchase the open evse from
Schuko plug is most certainly NOT safe to use at 16 amps. They can get properly hot already at 10 amps if you pull it continously.
My Hyundai granny cable does 12a on a shuko, and it's stone cold.
The problem is that the Schuko outlets doesn't age with much dignity. People keep pulling the plug on their coffee makers, vacuum cleaners, etc, with the machines still on, and with the small contact area in these connectors the pitting that occurs when you do so simply don't leave enough area left for the high(ish) currents to go through, and they overheat. They are rated for 16 amps, and with a fresh plug in a fresh outlet it will happily do that all day long, or if you only do it intermittently it's also fine (we run a small inverter welder at work that pulls around 17 amps, but it's normally only on for at most a minute at a time and rarely at max power). The Swedish department for electrical safety recommends you limit your EV-charger to 8 amps if you charge from Schuko, and as a principle don't recommend that you charge EVs from plugged in chargers more than temporarily at all.
Then there is also the risk of arcing the more current you pull through a plug, which is the reason why the don't recommend using industrial connectors (CEE) either, even though these have a lot bigger connection area relative to their rated current. If you pull out a three phase 32 amp connector under full load, you're in for a bad time.
For this, the UK plugs are a lot better, with their larger lugs. It should be pointed out that there is a lot more surface area on the UK plugs than on the schuko, yet the schuko is rated for 16 amps, and the UK model only for 13 amps.
Although my favourite is the Swiss system. All the different size plugs are compatible with eachother (in the "right" direction), i.e. you can plug a 10 amp plug in a 16 amp outlet, you can plug a single phase plug in a three phase outlet, and all outlets take the "Europlug". Also they're polarized, as opposed to schuko. The only thing I miss with their system is that there is no possibility to change which phase you load in a three phase contact, so if you want to do that you have to install it with the wrong phase on the wrong pin.
@@Tjita1 true, I did have to replace the socket, the 8 year old one did get hot.
The arcing won't be an issue because i always unplug the car first before unplugging the cable.
Is that the hydrophilic hot snot stuff that becomes conducive over time in the khons?
It looks like it indeed. Reminds me of a video of Dave from EEV blog with his KRK Rokit speakers.
I remember spending hours scraping that stuff off of Mitsubishi Video recorders why back then, I think it was used to restrict the life expectancy of the player, in this it could restrict the life expectancy of the user!
I remember spending hours scraping that stuff off of Mitsubishi Video recorders why back then, I think it was used to restrict the life expectancy of the player, in this it could restrict the life expectancy of the user!
Hi, nice video, (i have old leaf). There is many ev rewievs out there, but I would love to hear your opinion... maybe after you have it for some time...also why kona? Thanks, good to see video from you and good luck with the car
Have a look at Fully Charged's excellent review of the Kona. Seems it's got quite a few things going for it. th-cam.com/video/LATZ0g-Sz2s/w-d-xo.html
A J1772 will stop powering the car as soon as you press the release latch/button on the handle to remove it. Your EVSE clearly has the same button. Are you sure it doesn’t work the same way as J1772? As far as I know, you can’t manually turn off the power from any EVSE other than by pressing that clip to remove the handle.
Hi Mike you are back and you have an electric car this is great...and maybe you will never drive
an ICE Car...i have an Hyundai IONIC and i did the same Experiments with the Hyundai Box
(you need a Hacksaw for this Job) i build a Electronic circuit all in the Car connector....without
any Box.....
Next i am interested in the CCS Protocol.....not absolutely shure how to start...this is not an easy task..
but i am shure there is a lot going on on the Bus....
maybe this is a job for you...!?
I would like to be able to sniff the CCS comms - not looked in detail but looks unnecessarily complicated.
You mean you have an IONIQ, no? :D
@@rkan2 yes thank you..
Must be way zippier than the scirocco .. which one would you prefer if you’d null out the new/wow factor?
This is some quality stuff here. Instant subscribe :)
Came from watch?v=DAij_wWeZiY (
bigclivedotcom)
@@Vali_Deus Same. :)
Does the OpenEVSE do the diode check properly?
Yes
The standards here in the states are a bit different. First off, 8A at 120v is the default charge current (at least on my chevy volt) which is just sooooooo slow. The cars can charge fine off 240V though, and the OEM chevy charger can be modded for 240V use IIRC
The biggest difference is the charge connector, its totally different. The connectors can be removed by the user while the car is charging, however the charger monitors the state of the charger cable's release lever and shuts off the relays once you push it. I have seen cars that can lock the charger in to keep dipshits from unplugging your car because LOL HE'S OUT OF POWER but it isn't on all of them.
As far as the electronics, they seem to have done communication the same.
next video tear down of the car
On my mother's nissan leaf when you push in the release button/leaver on the cable contact it automatically stop the charging BEFORE you actually start pulling out the charging cable, have you checked if yours are the same?
Thats a feature of the type 1 plug, these are type 2. The car locks the cable in place when it charges, you can't unlock it (some may have a mechanical cable release).
Brilliant overview!
NICE CAR! I just bought the same one, but in grey :)
never own a grey car, according to the boffins its the hardest colour to see, after owning a grey morris 1300 l have to agree, lt was forever running into other cars when my wife was at the wheel, they must not have seen her and could not get out of her way
debeeriz that’s good advice. I have owned a grey car in one way or another for over 20 years and have never felt “unseen” or ever had a collision
Ive been considering a Kona as well. But ive not made the plunge yet. They say it does a real world 300 miles per full charge. How are you finding it so far ?.
Not done any long trips yet but usually avarages 4.5 to 4.9 miles/kWh without really trying to economise
It depends on temperature and driving style. I have recently done a journey of 248 miles and arrived with 75 miles estimated range available, giving a potential 100% range of 323 miles. This was achieved on a warm day keeping cruising to 60mph with the occasional overtaking at up to 70mph. Since September 2018 I have recorded each day's mileage and each charge session, and have averaged 306 miles per 100% charge. I read somewhere that, above about 50mph increasing the cruising speed by 10mph knocks about 13% off the potential range. I have not measured this myself, but, on the occasions that I have pushed on at 70mph, the range does decrease.
Over the past 9 months ( autumn, winter and spring) I have averaged 4.785 miles per KWh.