Renault Zoe EV inverter ( PEB)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 มิ.ย. 2024
- A look at the Power Electronics Block, containing the motor inverter and DC/DC converter from a Renault Zoe EV.
Battery cherger block video : • Renault Zoe EV Battery...
Renault charger patent :
patents.google.com/patent/US2... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
![PEB Electronic Block Power renault ZOE 💥 [Flow of currents]](/img/n.gif)
you gotta love automotive teardowns for the blend of high budget, high specifications and mass production
Absolutely loving the EV related content. Really cool to see the nitty gritty on how these cars actually work.
For all guys complaining about complexity: Renault Zoe is manufactured since 2012, so the design was probably started around 2008. That is the year when Musk joined Tesla...
My Citroen saxo electric from 2004 (designed in 1994) is way more complicated than this ! it uses 120v DC from a NI-Cad watercooled pack and an Brushed 20kw motor
The amount of engineering that went into designing these is mind-boggling!
43kw onboard AC charger using motor windings as inductors... always loved that idea! Thanks for the video mike.
The level of complexity in this inverter is fascinating. Thank you for the upload!
Probably an overkill. Somebody send a Tesla inverter unit to Mike !!
I'm a sparky and don't really know much when it comes to electronics. But I've learnt a lot from watching you, Dave and Clive. Even though I wouldn't know where to start on making something, even if its the most basic thing out there.
I've fixed and repair many electronics over the years, but it's just replacing components and doing visual inspections. As I don't own a scope or a frequency generator and only own a few cheap DMM's and a competent tester. Then I'm pretty limited 😕
I struggle even more these days due to my motorbike accident, which gave me a brain injury so I struggle to learn and retain information. I even struggle doing my job, as I spend 3-4 times as long doing things.
I haven't had a job since and I need to get back into the swing of things as I enjoy working (all depending on the job that is). Even though I can only do bench work these days due to loosing a leg and not being able to wear a normal prosthetic due to my pelvis being so badly damaged.
I also know that people would not want to employ me as companies want to make money. And when you've got someone who's constantly asking the same questing over and over again and taking ages doing it. Then they'll soon make up some BS up to get rid of me. Even though the government has got plans in to employ disabled people. They'll soon pick someone who doesn't have all the issues I've got, anyday over me. Which as you can imagine, really doesn't help with my mental health 😪😔 FML
Sorry. Went off on a tangent there 😕
I dug into a much newer design iteration of the Zoe powertrain. In fact it was a Smart EQ where the drivetrain should be identical to the Renault R90 or R110 design (not sure which one exactly). In comparison to your Q90/Q210 revision the motor design seems to be the same but the power stage was much more streamlinied and more easy to take apart. Pretty much any custom semiconductor package got replaced with of the shelf packages. If you like to see comprehensible photos of my teardown just poke me. Great video BTW!
Yes please!
Yesss pleasssse as fast as you can and will ofcourse. Poke, poke, poke, poke, poke,....
The information in this video is as densely packed as the inverter itself. Great content - thanks Mike!
Some lead designer got a huge budget and unlimited play time to make this happen. It is impressive from an engineering point of view but each of those custom parts is a vertical, one-off design that would have added a huge amount of cost, time and assembly complexity to the final product.
The art is in using standard parts and techniques while perhaps compromising a certain amount to achieve design goals that can be reused and adapted to future changes. The majority of what you showed here is single-product use that's highly dependent on specific components and materials. Likely no easy way of upgrading or even slightly modifying to adapt to future requirements.
Thanks for the depth of the video! It's hard to come across this level of quality tear-downs and insightful walk through of modern electronics. Much appreciated.
It’s a combination of high voltage, automotive, consumer. It better be over-engineered to hell and back. Imagine if instead of your phone battery bursting into flames, it’s your car...
Renault, continuing the tradition of "tool, special" ever since they started making vehicles.
Yes. All of the french auto manufacturers do. Since the beginning. If you want to change the bushings in the rear axle of a 60's Peugeot 204 you need literally half a ton of quite esoteric special tools. No chance to get away without.
For the rear end of a Mercedes Benz of that vintage you need a few wrenches, a few lengths of pipe and a big ass hammer. If you are fancy, maybe a foot of ready rod and some nuts.
@@albinklein7680 Yes, my father was a service centre for Citroen, and every new model year they would send him, along with the quarter ton of printed catalogues for the new models, the set of new special tools that you would absolutely need to do anything to the vehicles other than check the oil. He had one customer who would put his vehicle on a truck and drive it 5 hours for it's service.
Selling a half dozen vehicles in a year back then for the area was a lot, though my mother always loved her Citroen's, always getting to drive a slightly used one that was otherwise in good condition.
But to change a wheel bearing without the special spanners would be near impossible, unless you also had your own machine shop, to build the thin wall high strength steel parts needed.
Oh yes. Those thin walled high-strength-/stress parts still scare me a bit after more than 30 years in Business. To change the ball joints in the front axle of a Mercedes sprinter you need about 20 metric tons of pressure. And the 'meat' on the control arm where you have to apply that pressure is about 1.5millimeters. I am really glad that the hydraulic ram with which I do that kind of stuff has a looooooong extension hose...
To return to the topic:
The electric renaults of the 90s also needed tons of special tools. I had a Clio electrique once and to check and adjust the electrolyte level in the NiCad Battery cells you needed a vacuum pump, a sh*tload of plumbing and hoses (proprietary connectors iirc.) and a lot of time. And don't forget your safety gear. Caustic potassium hydroxide solution splashing everywhere. That was a real pleasure to do every month or so.
still some of the best teardowns on youtube with lots and lots of really good tips to learn about tearing down and understanding the engineering behind this
thanks a lot and keep it up
Brilliant video and description of this PEB.
It had much more in it than I expected!.
Thanks so much for sharing
So cool to see car parts! Definitely do more of them, it is very interesting to see what technologies different manufacturers use in their electric vehicles. It is also interesting to know what solutions could be described as "modern" or "old" to see which manufacturers are best at their solutions. Good job, thank you for the video.
Excellent breakdown. I don't know anything about electronics but I couldn't stop watching.
Every time you say applied violence I think that it's a great name for the Applied Science spoof channel ;)
Very much appreciating your infos on ev power equipment. keep going on reversing this stuff
Legend. IV been waiting for you to look at the internals of electric cars.
An excellent and informative video. I'm glad that when charging failed on my 2013 ZOE a couple of years ago, the extended warranty covered the replacement of this unit, otherwise the car would have been a write-off.
Thanks for the insight in that crazy contraption! I wanted to have a peek inside these for a long time!
25:27 the metal plates effectively canceling out inductance between snubber capacitor and igbt brick. Only purpose is to save IGBTs from damaging voltage spikes
Love the EV electronics teardowns. Would be cool to see more of inverters and chargers.
Thanks for taking the inverter apart Mike. I'd love for you to examine other inverters as well. Would be super interesting to look at the different architectures.
Very interesting teardown. I helped tesla figure out the manufacturing process for the model 3 drive inverter. It's a wildly different construction, much simpler to this unit. Under NDA I can't go into much detail, but teardowns exist for it
The OBC + 400/12 DC DC in M3 is a beauty. Very simple and thoughtful construction.
As a big fan - happy to see new content !
This uploaded made my day... Thumbs up before it even started.. can't wait for more EV stuff... Thanks Mike.. 😁
always a treat, thanks Mike! Super interesting
Fascinating. Thanks! This is interesting and scary in that it is definitely engineered without any concern for repiarability or sustainability.
Awesome teardown!
Thanks for sharing. 😉👍🏼
Mike thanks for the video,I replaced my PEB today and just changed the main board with the vin lock on it and worked a treat…thanks
As a frequent wisitor of Your web page i must say that i was more than excited when i discovered that You also had this great TH-cam channel.
It's thank to You i also discovered a few other awsome guys like Big Clive for example.
A massive thank You for still providing us wid such great kontent!
Absolutely brillant reverse engineering, Mike. For a long time I was hoping to see a proper teardown and analysis of some EV power electronics. Here we go :)
The aux contacts on the AMP/TE orange power interconnects are primarily for a software independant disablement of the HV DC in order to protect anyone foolish enough to remove those plugs with the power on! Uuually, the main battery contactors source there 12v power, required to hold them shut, via this safety chain, so as you start to lift the latch and remove the mating half of the connector, the aux contacts open first, which drops out the those contactors and effectievly isolates the system. It then takes a suitable diagnostics tool to software re-enable them (ie just putting the connector back together does not restore power....)
Pistonheads is that way->
That's just what was going to say... 🤓
At what point can you consider yourself a b-list internet celebrity?
eev-blog, pistonheads, countless others....
Just start uploading stuff or something
Fascinating stuff Mike, thanks.
Very nice video. Always a pleasure to watch.
You don't put out many videos, but they are always good.
Thank you for this very interesting tear down. hose are the biggest bond wires I have ever seen!
The video I have been waiting for :)
All Renault Zoe models support 22kW charging via the Type 2 AC connector. Certain models support 43kW charging, these are the “Q” models, for the 22kWh battery the Q210 and for the 41kWh battery the Q90. The new 52kWh battery model only supports 22kW AC but has the option to add 50kW DC charging via a CCS connector.
The combination of 22kW Type 2 AC and CCS is quite a good choice and gives you a lot of options when charging. It also means you have a fairly rapid fallback if the CCS isn’t working and there is an AC alternative on the same unit.
And there is the q210 with the upgrade battery, I’ve had one. Drove 130.000km in our Zoe, loved it and better range in winter then model 3 sr+
Serious engineering there...cheers.
Amazing! And every single bit in there looks very very €xpensive!
This is like progressing from aVe community college to grad school. Love it.
"No user serviceable parts inside." This time it's for real!
The pipe going into the electronics is for pressurized air to keep coolant/water out?
Fascinating! Thanks 😊
Awesome video!
Very interesting! Thanks
This makes it pretty clear why they're so expensive (something like £5k if you wanted to replace one as a full unit outside of warranty, I believe) and also a good illustration to counter those who say there's "nothing to go wrong" in an EV (it's less likely as it's all solid state stuff, but plenty that *could* go wrong one way or another). The combination highlights the importance of extended warranty or similar insurance.
Seems very well made with decent components which counters some of my previous musings that "it's a cheap EV so it's less reliable" (had a couple of teething troubles with mine but thankfully with good support), sometimes just "stuff happens" and you're unlucky but you can see that there's plenty of stuff that can go faulty and plenty of ££ required to fix it if you're not covered.
Exactly so what is the resale value ? Nil would be my guess... Also I wonder what the insurance say about the number of these things that mysteriously catch fire, no I don't mean electrical faults, i mean someone faced with a £5k repair bill on a car that is worth less than £5k realizing a box of matches only cost 10p.
@@cuckingfunt9353 resale value of mine is about £7k at the moment. I bought it for £6.7k 2 years ago. This is due to increasing demand for EVs especially ones that people can actually afford ;)
Risky business insurance fraud as is owning an EV without extending the warranty but, I will be upgrading mine before the 10 year warranty limit is up and then it's someone else's problem. I expect by then there will be plenty of spares around along with HEVRA associated independent repair shops but I also think if it does become an issue we'll see some sort of "comprehensive plus" insurance that covers electromechanical breakdown in EVs
Bear in mind £5k is a dealer price for a brand new full unit. Even the main dealers are allowed to open these up now and repair/replace components which should bring the job down a few k.
cool video, I like to see this EV stuff
The small pins in the contactors are called HVIL (High Voltage Interlock Loop) connectors, all EVs have them.
Who else thought it was a lot smaller than it is before he put his hands by it.
They are extremely nice looking PCBs...
AIsler.net also makes such automotive PCBs for hobbyists and small companies. The PCBs I order from there look the same :D
Nice touch, using the Renault logo's shape as a pattern for the heatsink.
More likely it's the best shape for water to flow around without too much turbulence...
Great video Mike! Crazy to see FPGAs in these things. Seems like overkill.
I would have to guess that unlike the Prius, the sales volume isn't quite enough to make it worth developing ASICs. Also note that the Prius ASIC development dates back to 2000 or so when FPGAs were really expensive, nowadays much cheaper FPGAs are available.
I have a 2010 bmw 7series high voltage motor inverter. I can some diagrams for it and it’s mostly working. It’s vin locked but still works. We replaced it due to the hour usage on it and bmw didn’t want it coupled with the new drive unit we installed. If your interested I would like to see it on the channel.
Very nice built quality and soldering. I am surprised they didn’t pot or conformal coat the PCB.
Thanks mike, this ev stuff is so complex and uses packaging techniques that must have taken a lot of debugging, wonder what the prototype looked like.
your voice is so soothing
Interesting tech. Thank you.
yessssss EV parts! this stuff is like alien technology. very interesting. fingers crossed for pyrotechnic fuse next lol
Clever idea there
All "AFAIK": The PEB is only connected to the E CANbus I can figure out the other pins on the black connector if you wish.
DCDC converter is indeed 1kW (80A)
The pre-charge relay is actually in the battery pack. 80 ohms.
GREAT video!
There are definitely other CAN buses that go on to the board as there are more CAN transceivers - don't recall if it's one or two in addition to the one that the OBD2 bus links to no idea if they are actually used though
@@mikeselectricstuff I dug into the wiring scheme and lo and behold there is indeed a wire pair that was never mentioned in the tech manuals. The black connector is wired like this:
- E CANbus (this does not go to the OBD2. It is gatewayed over the EVC to the V CANbus which is on the OBD2)
- X CANbus ( with a direct link to the BCB. I speculate this is used to synchronise things during charging. It might not even be a CANbus, but the teardown suggests it is. This speculation is fed there being ZERO documentation on it's data content, while the other busses are)
- 12 V (20 A fused and 7.5 A fused)
2 x 5 wires to the motor assembly (well, 4 + shielding, I am assuming dual position sensors, or single + interlocks, that is not entirely clear)
Excellent video.
Chip Quik SMD removal alloy is great for removing large joints and tricky components without damage. Remove as much tin solder as possible and flood it with Chip Quik to maintain the conduction of heat to the lower layers. A 100w iron and some board preheat helps also, i have a Weller W101D for big automotive stuff. I always keep some Chip Quik for those situations when you need to get something cleanly off an expensive board you just can't risk damaging with excess heat.
Chip Quick is awesome. Comes in really handy when you need to remove large QFP components without lifting pads.
This is very complex for a limited production car. Its no wonder why car manufacturers were and still are reluctant to build these things.
Limited? It’s been sold top 3 of Europe. I’ve had one and loved it
@@MrGoogle87 Top 3 of a 1% market share is limited.
Amazing economy how they used the motor winding as an inductor good idea. However the motor must be well cooled and this requires elaborate safety circuits to avoid coupling the motor in a false way while running and blowing the power elwctronics.
Great video 👍 as always. Now I know why my Zoe makes that sound whilst charging! Interesting to know if the failure modes of these items makes them worth considering for repair.
Awesome video! MORE OF THIS!!!
I'm really surprised with the amount of high tech components, processors and other IC's, I expected there would be just some extremely beefy diodes, transistors and inductors, and nothing else :)
Yeah, likely some embedded engineer used the project as an excuse to gain experience at the company's expense.
With those massive currents involved and the fact that this is an automotive device, it is key to always monitor everything and to fail safely. Since this handles the entire motor control, this is not unexpected. Just have a look at an ECU of a conventional car. It's quite complicated too.
@@0xbenedikt Yeah, I expect ECU to be extremely advanced, but I thought this is just a DC-DC converter with motor driver circuit, and ECU is a separate unit. It makes sense if this basically controlls entire car.
Those rivet plugs are pure evil, considering the rest is nice Torx screws.
I work in industrial electronics, its amazing to see them so compact considering the power. Water cooling is a must, some of the VFD's we repair put out 4KW+ of heat.
you say that, but as an auto electrician I see their value (and I think they are shear bolts) .. they protect HV bus bar connections, an in-knowing person could undo a torx cap and stick a screwdriver (or finger i guess) into a live circuit. admittedly sheer bolts are a bit extreme, fittings like the pentagon are often used to protect fixtures the average joe shoudlnt touch. an example is spring detents on gearboxes, undo one of them and you have a ballbearing rolling around your gearbox. these are usually pentagon or security torx or the like or as mike pointed out the pentagon nuts used on certain brake calipers, these allow faster changing of the pads if removed BUT they are never and should never be removed during normal service.
You have to remember you need no qualifications to work on vehicles.
@@denisohbrien Yea! Very good point, I forgot to take into account it there is a giant battery across those screws lol. But having absolutely no way of re-opening it is a little stupid, but then, you would just replace the whole module wouldn't you...
Maybe they should have made them "triangle" drive, and have the electrical "lightning" symbol embossed into the bottom of it, you at least then have a visual clue of what you are undoing. Well at least until you vaporize your screwdriver in your face 😁
27:00 the transformer ratio would be sqrt(L1/L2) not L1/L2
Very informative thanks
Super interesting! Cheers
Continental does some custom silicon with companies like ON Semi and / or TI, so some part numbers are for use on Continental ECUs only
The DC-DC converter in our Fiat 500e can put out about 150A of 12v, I doing a quick google it looks like the Zoe's can do 100A.
Have you fogured out the pin out connections from the data or can connector as it exits the Zoe battery?
Awesome teardown !!!!! How long would that take to design.
Holy fuck is this complex.
would be great to compare different units :) but thx for your effort ..really interesting stuff
Those things are designed by engineers with super powers!
Incredible
Here are some other inverter teardowns
Tesla Model S:
th-cam.com/video/VZVQIeW1xP4/w-d-xo.html
(The actual teardown starts at around 1:40:00)
Chevrolet Bolt:
th-cam.com/video/dM6s3sLaTqE/w-d-xo.html
Nissan Leaf:
th-cam.com/video/5bXDnTx2MrM/w-d-xo.html
Mike's is the most in-depth teardown I've seen so far! I'm also impressed by Continental's efforts to overcomplicate this unit.
Also check ou Damien Maguire's yt channel... He has days worth of material on reverse-engineerimg etc... He also does all manufacturers.. Toyota, Nissan, Tesla, Mitsubishi
@@rkan2 And him too, of course. I thought I included him.
The fact they're coding these things to specific cars is proof these companies want total control over the life cycle of their products. Independent repair becomes a lot more difficult without people like you to reverse-engineer and learn how to reprogram them.
Have you heard about the independent repair battles going on in the US right now? Louis Rossman (TH-cam) is covering the subject and going to the hearings.
I think you can programme a new inverter with a chinese copy of nissan consult 3+ (around £550 ). Prior to the chinese copy you had to take to dealer or pay £12k for the programme tool.
Coding also clamps down on the demand for stolen parts until the coding process can be cracked.
@@jonathanburford
I think that may be more a corporate lobbying excuse for why they have coded parts in the first place. On the surface it sounds reasonable. In reality it doesn't quite pan out the same.
I doubt criminals would be removing parts from cars in order to sell them on (in the case of electric vehicles). I only heard of a few scenarios in one area of the UK where a couple of criminals were stealing body panels off specific cars. Also, catalytic converter theft to get the rare earth metals. But its very doubtful any criminal would go for such high hanging fruit (power converters and the like) when there may be a handbag on display on the passenger seat.
Jim Griffiths criminals steal cars to make quick easy money. Often by stripping high end vehicles for parts and selling them in competent form. More stolen motors are stripped for parts than are resold as ringed motors these days tbh. It’s a very lucrative business. Working in the insurance industry I’ve seen it first hand. Also plenty of examples of parts stolen to order - complete front ends of cars etc.
@@jonathanburford I don't think they give a s**t for stolen parts the more the merier, its about total control and not wanting small shops to repair such parts
25:10, Circulating currents also cause excess heat, thats one of the reasons metal transformer cores are made from many thin layers instead of one big chunk of metal.
the metal plates effectively canceling out inductance between snubber capacitor and igbt brick. Only purpose is to save IGBTs from damaging voltage spikes
Interesting video
I noticed the almost total lack of markings on the pcb's. They don't want to make it easy to reverse engineer.
I think they just skipped the silk screening process. Probably not needed since assembly will be automated anyway. saves a bit per board
It's not like they intended anyone to see them after closing the lid.
Divide pipeline trough the electronic core? Relying on just two O-ring's doesn't look like a good solution. Junction could be made outside, providing more realibilty.
Great video.
Best regards.
I constantly see people complaining about removing that solder being a chore. I think that the professional solders just don't have the capacity to put out enough heat. I have a stick direct to mains, no control solder unit, made in Switzerland (that's all i can read on it). The tip, i allowed it to cup from corrosion, and i use a hand pump solder that has its nose cut, such that the tip fits over the offending blob of solder and right up against the solder tip. I dip some heat in, add a bit of regular solder, set up, as tight as possible, then when i see that slight discoloration, i remove the solder iron and press in the pump whilst pushing the release button.
I've managed to clean to board, even large connectors from aluminium heat sinks with this method. I think it's just a matter of being just a bit more aggressive.
Nah, a JBC 470 series tip can do this. 250W in a really small tip, can put a solder dot in the middle of 3mm thick copper sheet in seconds. I too was surprised when i tried that soldering station, it can do more than a old 300W+ iron that goes to almost 600°C.
The zoe doesnt have any permanent magnets in the motor, they didnt want to make themselves dependent on limited neodymium supply from china.
I bet it also saved them some money in the motor.
Its quite interesting that the zoe charges through the motor, I never knew that before.
My mom owns one and its definetly quite loud while charging, especially when you are sitting outside right next to it.
Some older Teslas also use induction motors, no permanent magnets in those either.
Permanent magnet motors have losses due to magnetic field always being full strength - so average efficiency is compromized (although they are typically more efficient at full power and more compact).
Wow, this is amazing. If you haven't dug into the IGBT module yet would you sell it on eBay?
Awesome, now I know why Zoë is a fussy charger.👍
I watched the Battery Charger Block video yesterday.
That night I dreamed that was repairing one. What a nightmare.
I want my 340 Duster back. 3 wires to run the engine and charge the battery.
The other slant six one I had was the same and had good fuel economy.
The 99 Camry with 320,000 Km I have now is pretty good though.
It's quite amazing how complex such a modest looking module really is. I mean that's quite a lot of advanced electronics in there. I wonder how many hours of R&D they spent on it.
No doubt you have seen the Weber automotive deep dive videos. The power semiconductors in this Renault part look very similar to the parts used in the Chevy volt inverter. If my volt electronics ever go bad then I’ll send them your way Mike.
It reminds me of one of my favorite 'mikeselectricstuff' videos where he shoehorns a new output transistor in a sealed hybrid stepper motor driver.
What EV did you get?
Kona, watch Mike's previous content perhaps?
Honestly reminds me of satellite power communication electronics
Wow. Now I can see what all the electronic reps were on about when they came into our company explaining that EVs were causing component shortages throughout the industry.
How many MLCC's on these circuit boards?
Have you measured phase inductance and DC-link capacitance? Thanks for good teardown work.
It is interesting that Renault at least partially obtains the parts for the drive system from Continental...
That's weird with all those O-ring insulated cooling blocks. I've taken apart a Leaf charger / DC-DC converter and all it has is a single cast aluminium heat sink dividing the entire case in two halves with components directly bolted to it from both sides. Zero O-rings. It's a much bulkier unit though, maybe due to the simpler design.
Any chance you make such a review for the Zoe DC box ? Just wondering how they plug this to the engine and battery pack....😊
Holy crap, shorting that massive cap, I was wincing through those demonstrations. 😬