Pleeeease, stop calling everything smart! It is not smart. It's an automation only, a highly deterministic process. All these "smart home" things, are just remote controlled devices, just happens that the remote control is not an IR remote but a device on an IP network and then it has to be called smart. 🤦🏻♂️ 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gabiold When connecting high power cables safety agencies require the power to be removed. (You're supposed to turn off the breaker before you connect or disconnect your motor home.) This thing is smarter than a circuit breaker in that automatically turn off the power. It detects electrical faults, informs the load how much power is available. It is there for safety. I'd admit 'smart' is overused to describe WiFi connected devices.
I really like how that 30A connector has a clear back, you can quickly check that its wired right and that if something goes wrong you can check the wiring easily
Yes that style of connector is basically the standard here in New Zealand and Australia, for industrial / high current / single or 3 phase use...they are generally called “56 series” because they are IP 56... They have a threaded collar / ring that mates with the socket and holds the connector & plug firmly connected...
@@andrewcourt5156 The plug Dave has is IP66 rated though. The series number is just that I believe. There's many other series available, e.g. 600 series 10A outlets.
My best guess about the series relay is those output pins are accessable via a finger and that needs to be safe during any single fault. A relay fusing or something like that is not an unreasonable single fault
I seem to remember reading somewhere about the different stages of the connection & handshake. One option is one relay activates at one particular stage passing and the other relay connects at the final stage. They could do this instead of using an "and" gate.
these are very much built in the UK they are expanding rapidly the have moved to a larger temporary facility and are building a custom new facility near Grimsby. You would be surprised how much electronics manufacturing in the UK there is I sell electronics manufacturing equipment here and there are loads of them.
To be fair, If something MUST be high quality it may well be made here. Just another reason why going green is a good thing for the UK economy. Genuinely, this will be good for the uk.
Out of curiosity, have you tried removing the diode from your bench-top pilot circuit? I'm really curious if the EVSE's are checking for that today. Back around 2012, I worked as an engineer responsible for the micro-controller code for a residential/commercial EVSE product line. We ran into an issue where someone on TH-cam showed our device not working with their Nissan Leaf but other competitor EVSE's worked fine. After some investigating, we found out that the pilot diode in the Leaf would fail after some period of time - our theory was due to insufficient transient/surge protection. We discovered that many EVSE's on the market did not check for the diode and therefore worked fine when the Leaf's diode failed. I recall having discussions with the project lead engineer whether we should be doing the pilot diode check (SAE and UL standards did not require it at the time), and decided that it should be there exactly for the same safety reason you described - in case the plug was dropped in a puddle and the resistance on the CP pin happened to be in the range to enable charging. You essentially covered the reasons why EVSE is needed but I wanted to highlight one unique safety issue with EVs, and that is the fact that your vehicle's bodywork is effectively isolated from earth ground by rubber tires. One job of EVSE is to ensure that the body work is never ever ever at any potential other than earth ground. Thank you for the video, really enjoyed it!
The J1772/Type 1 connector predates the Type 2 connector by about 2 years or so. Its creation can basically be attributed to the California Air Resources Board (aka CARB). Some late 90s/early 2000s EVs like the Ford Ranger EV where already using the the original J1772 standard which was paired with the older "Avcon" connector. CARB wanted something that could handle higher current, as Avcon was limited to around 28A. The Yazaki Corp. of Japan stepped up with their design, the Type 1 connector we know today. CARB mandated that this new upcoming connector be the standard connector for plugin vehicles sold in California. Given that California basically made the EV market in the US, automakers complied and the SAE shortly adopted it as the J1772-2009 standard. Thus Type 1 became the defacto standard in the US, and more broadly North America. Around about the same time that the SAE adopted Type 1, German company Mennekes was proposing their "Type 2" connector to German automakers. They adopted the Type 2 connector and eventually the EU legally mandated it. Some early EVs sold in EU countries where actually equipped with Type 1. "Fun" fact: Since the signaling today is basically still the same, old EVs such as the aforementioned Ford Ranger EV equipped with the Avcon connector can be charged on modern EVSEs with a simple physical adapter. As long as the EVSE doesn't present a pilot signal greater than 28A, it will work fine. Long post... But even cooler is the non-conductive induction paddle charging system used by the GM EV1 in the mid 90s. It was more advanced than the J1772 system we ended up with. It actually had 2-way communication between the car and the charger. The car could communicate back to the charger battery chemistry type, state of charge, etc..
@@markg735 a paper I read some time ago made mention that a design goal of the original J1772 signaling was that it could be implemented cheaply.. i.e. without a microcontroller.
If this is for zero crossing detect, why include the 5V relay? I don't see a reason why you would need or want to switch the line side AC input feeding an opto if all you want is zero-cross detect.
@@Smidge204 I have no idea. You can see though that the opto is on the switched side, not the control side, and it seems to be connected to the mains line. What else would it do?
Nice video Dave, as always. I've been watching EVSE installs on Jordan's (Artisan Electrics) channel. One feature that I wish we had in the US was the ability to monitor total energy draw and scale the charge rate down to avoid tripping the main breaker. Another thing that you guys got right was to standardize on connector. Here, Tesla uses theirs, Nissan has theirs, and everyone uses J1772.
whoever stuck that Aussie flag on upside down was surely having a joke. also as you probably know, all UK electrical equipment is marked 230V 50Hz despite the supply having always been 240V. the EU standardised on 230V and everyone with 220V or 240V supplies just widened their tolerances rather than change any equipment
These fancy EVSE boxes are nice but I really think every electric car should have a self-retracting, pull out 15A cord you can just plug into any standard outlet. It's 'technology' perfected by the humble domestic vacuum cleaner decades ago so there is no excuse.
Kind of yes... but then again not. With an external unit you can just replace it with a more suitable one or whatever. Having it integrated means you will be lugging around little bit of weight around even if you don't want to. And having an integrated thing repaired at a shop can often cost more than buying a new external one anyways. I like the modularity aspect more than the convenience of integrated. And the integrated one would have to fit all kinds of different country standards and adapted when cars get shipped from country to country etc. If the whole world ran on the same standard for plugs and amps etc. then it would make a bit more sense.
@@benbaselet2026 That is not a valid argument: EVs have unnecessary complicated charging protocols. EVs should only need a 3 phase 32A or bigger male red CEE connector under the filler lid and be compatible with absolutely everything carrying a voltage. The car should naturally be able to work on single phase as well as 3 phase, and charging current is set on the dash before plugging in. The simpler, the more future proof. People have handled AC connectors for a century. This is just a blatant money grab on par with ink cartridges and vacuum cleaner bags! AC is a common good, and monopolizing a shared public funded resource is a crime.
I get to watch you do the things I would want to do with these gadgets while you teach me the things I want to learn. Thank you! Cheers from the Ouachita mountains.
I like the idea of charging a car off of solar, but since you're going from DC to AC back to DC bothers the efficiency geek in me. If only there was a way to bypass the inverter.
All I got with my car was a type 2 cable. Had to buy my own 13A charger while waiting for the 7kw charger to be installed. I have a Podpoint brand one with tethered cable, it has a current clamp to monitor total load on the incoming supply so it doesn’t overload the supply wiring to the house.
Best description I've seen of what these do is to negotiate the parameters of the charging session, based on the joint capabilities of the vehicle and the power supply. We are indeed weird, bruh!
Worth noting that EVs also have a Minimum charge current of 6A. So if your solar is exporting less than 6A, you either need to export that "for a pittance" or make up the rest by importing from the grid.
I think the two relays in series are for independent control and safety. So I guess one relay will be your PEN / earth fault isolator. The other relay will be for regular control functions. I work on programmable safety systems in the process industry. We often have two valves in series on a particular pipe. One will be for process control, and the other is a safety shutdown valve which intervenes if pressure / level etc is outside allowed limits. Safety systems are always independently controlled in case of a failure on your process control system.
That's interesting. A few years ago I found an EV charger by the side of the road and couldn't figure out what it was at first because it was just a black box with the wires cut off. Mine was completely different inside. It had several different transformers, inductors, fuses, circuit breakers, and some sort of power diodes or switching devices on heat sinks. Maybe it was a DC charger? It was a lot more complex than yours.
I fitted a 3 position switch to the connector on my dumb EVSE's cable to present 3 different resistances to the PP pin in the car. This fools the car into thinking the cable has different current capacity (13A, 20A, 32A) to make best use of our solar. It can even be switched during use.
The double relay in series is quite common in industrial safety circuits (the one triggered by the big red mushroom switch). If i recall correctly is even mandatory in the EU Machine regulation. It's done because, if one contactor weld shut, the other trips and open the circuit. I also think that the safety module can also detect in one is faulty and refuse to energize the other one.
It would be awesome to use the dc pins of the full ccs type 2 and see if you could emulate dc fast charging from LiFePO4 and solar direct with some boost converter or something.
The small relay and opto-coupler is probably a PE detection circuit. What it actually does is leaking a bit of current from Line to PE while measuring it. Current above predefined threshold means proper connection of PE. In some countries this may also allow 20mA instead of 6mA RCD.
Least you got a zappie and not a HyperVolt… something still very unsettling about having a raspberry pi which I don’t control sitting on my home wifi, in an always powered on box accessible to anyone on the outside of my house. Apparently it’s not a problem though! Many layers of encryption 🤦♂️ yet they won’t send me a trial unit a free PenTest! 🙄
The wireless antenna is most likely to allow communicate with Myenergi's Hub. The kW from your solar panels will be limited by your inverter. I did a tutorial on how to fit a Tesla charging button to the Zappi charging plug. Theoretically speaking, if the resistor in the plug was changed from 220 ohms to 210 ohms would it be possible to draw 34 amps from the Zappi or would there be some other limitation? I note that the relays are limited to 35 amps.
We open sourced a version of SAE J3068 at the University of Delaware. It’s the new North American standard for three-phase AC charging (using mennekes but higher voltage and current) and new digital control pilot called LIN-CP. It’s targeted for a medium and heavy duty use.
Hi Dave? So this year my brother bought a VW Transporter electric van. He loves it, but "It/They!" have a fault where maximun mileage is only 50miles. It should be around 80-90. Also our area doesnt have a VW Auto electrician. VW said they might load his van on a truck and take it elsewhere in UK to look at. He even has to remove terminals from lead 12v battery , to reset stuff, or charger sometimes doesnt work when at home. Also maximun charge per hour is only 3-4 miles per hour. What rubbish
The Aussie connector looks rather similar to what is often known as a "Commando" plug here in the UK. EV chargers are typically permanently installed here, with a 32A feed taken from the consumer unit (fuse board!)
And, of course, whilst all sensible countries have standardized on "commando" connectors there are a few places that have decided for no apparent reason to go their own way or to stay with a previous standard when having just the one universal worldwide standard is the most sensible thing to do.
Passenger EVs love 240 split-phase, just the same as 230 single-phase. The IEC EV standards allow for a hot “neutral” terminal on the connector. Not just because of the USA and Japan, Belgium and Norway for example also have older installations with Delta 230 connected transformers (no neutral) and on those EVSE use two hots.
Charging your EV on excess solar is the icing on the cake. Followed by driving with your solar electric vehicle past a service station checking out the latest pricing for dinosaur juice.
little relay is commutating input ground cable to ground checking circuit. if check fails, microcontroller turns off the relay to remove 'ground' cable from the plug output ground
No worries about the overvoltage in AUS network. UK is using 240 V, actually.They did that while Europe was still using 220 V. This 230 V on the box is to comply with new UE regulations. The tolerance in the EU standard is 10%, so they could run the network up to 253 V theoretically.
They often do run the mains voltage to over 250 in the UK, at least in my area anyway, I regularly see 252volts on my supply but it's more usually around 248 to 250.
@@Tekwyzard Your kettle must boil water in no time ;). The supply company might run the line higher, to account for the voltage drops along the supply line.
@@piotrts It does boil rather quickly, yes:-) But it makes building mains powered electronic projects a bit more interesting. I live really close to a substation, but suspect the system is set up to cope with repercussions of everyone on my estate watching 'Coronation St' or some such BS.
Just had a thought- why not do the trip tests using high power variable resistors to see at what current they go'. Connect between the output live (or "active" in aussie) and the input Neutral and slowly turn down the resistance... -click. 👍🏻
Might be best to change the Ethernet cable connecting the CT's to a control type cable to differentiate it from other Comms cabling in the house. CT's can output high voltage if there is no load, ie some NBN tech cuts the cable. I'd go with a screened control cable and look at fusing(PTC Thermistor)/over voltage(MOV) the outputs of the CT's at the main board. I haven't done any calcs to see what power we are talking about but I think the the CT V could be dangerous if the cable was cut.
Hi, so I guess I can simply have a standard metal enclosure in my garage, supplied via 40 amp dedicated mcb in my house, with a suitable 50 amp contactor in the enclosure, contactor controlled by din rail timer, to only close the contactor 23:30h until 05:30h for cheap rate. Having a 200 ohm resistor ?
Solar aware - what use is that? EV charging at home is usually overnight. What you really need with a 7 kW or greater home EVSE is to have smart load control built in so that it backs off the charge rate when you turn on everything else in you home otherwise you risk blowing your main supply fuse.
Lots of equipment (inc this device) does exactly that... they have a current clamp to measure incoming load and back off when load increases. The solar aware bit is for people who do, and can charge in the day, and when linked with the battery storage systems also tries to minimise use of the grid as best it can (how it does that can be programmed). It also has a load of safety things like type B rcd, PEN fault detection and usual other stuff. Seen lots of installers rave about it compared to other systems.
It depends on your situation. And it comes as a trivial freebie when implementing load control, which yes, these do, because yes, the engineers were actually thinking when they designed it.
Why would you charge your car with expensive energy overnight when you could let it fill up for free on the weekends and only add an hour or so during the week if it runs too low?
Why not use MOSFETs in place of the relays? I've noticed most devices in high current applications using relays while a single MOSFET could work for DC, and two MOSFETs can make a solid state relay that should handle the same current. Likely at a cheaper price. Am I missing something here?
In the UK the DNO(distribution network operator) in our area (Western Power) is installing three phase to new builds now. This blew me away learning this. This is for super fast charging for cars and heat pumps/ air conditioning. In UK most outlets I have measured a good 240v so same as Australia just we needed to move to 230v to conform to EU guess what we left the EU.
@@SimonCoates At peak time. And it's running at about 20% capacity at its lowest. Which means that there is no problem, as cars need about 1 hour (single-phase, or 20 minutes 3-phase) worth of charging per day on average. Plenty of hours each night when the grid is idle.
The biggest problem with the grid is imbalance in the system. Having three phase and smart tariffs will ballance the network and because of renewable energy the gas turbine network is being upgraded to bring balance back
I wonder can't they design a system to determine the limits of the line, e.g., base it on voltage drop or any other measurement to determine what the wiring can handle just in case someone does something like put a 30 amp charger on a 20 amp circuit but leaves the device set to 30 amps?
I think there would be too many variables for voltage drop, unless you set it really high I suppose, but that could easily be above the current rating limit. For example, dropping 5 volts on 100' of 30a wire is probably fine as that's a lot of length to absorb the heat, but if you had 5 volts of drop on 10' of wire, that could be a sign of an issue. I get about 2-4 volts of drop when charging my car, and I only charge at 23 amps out the of circuit's max of 60 peak, 48 continuous (6 AWG copper). And I don't have far runs. The 200 amp service entry only runs 8 feet from the meter to panel, and only another 13' from the panel to EVSE. Cranking up charging to the max 40 amps of the EVSE, I usually get near 6 volts of drop. Which is a lot so I never charge that high. Everything gets warm and the car's cooling circuit kicks on a lot, which is all wasted energy. Also the voltage to my house can fluctuate ~10 volts throughout the day, so it would have to measure the voltage at the panel somehow to know what the drop between panel and EVSE is. If the EVSE has NEMA plug, the max current should already be set from the factory, and the wiring in the house should already be up to code for that receptacle. If it's a hard wired EVSE, then more likely it's going to be installed by a licensed electrician or by a knowledgeable owner who knows what they're doing and gets it inspected by an official. It's an interesting thought though. Perhaps another way to have a safety like that is to have temp sensors on the line side terminal block and ambient air of the EVSE. If you've undersized the wiring, the temp difference between the block and ambient would reach a certain threshold and start to limit the current. I know the Tesla portable EVSE has a temp sensor in the plug head to throttle current if it gets too warm from a loose fitting or overloaded receptacle. At least the US versions do.
I'm surprised how big it is, it's mostly full of air! I have a Wallbox Pulsar (32A-7kW), it would basically fit inside the Zappi's empty space! The WB inside is much denser and it has no screen or buttons, you have to use the phone app for everything.
I watched another video with a rolec charger and that one does not have a printed circuit board like this.. what is the difference between the hardware from both units i wonder?
Due to chip shortages I know they had to pivot to a different micro processor, not sure if the one Dave has is the current version or previous version.
Standard? Not here in the USA there isn't...Tesla proprietary seems most common by far but non-Teslas use various other plugs. One of the big problems with EVs here being you have to find the "right" charger that you can plug it into where you are going.
You can find chargers for anything in the US, the problem is that all the charging networks outside of Tesla are horrendously unreliable. They are down all the time some almost permanently.
For 32A single phase in the EU, you'd probably be using an IEC309-2 comformant plug? If there's anything for "home" use that isn't one of those industrial plugs, I haven't seen it. That said I'm not an electrical engineer so please correct me if I'm wrong. EDIT: Here in Spain for up to 10A without earth, we have the Europlug, and for up to 16A and things that require earthing, Schuko.
Nice video but i say this boxies are to expensiv compared to what is inside! The charging of EV with AC is very easy. But have you ever seen a wallbox how communicate with powerline to the car and shows the SOC in a display?
The RCD module could be produced by third part company that remark for them. The reason may be that RCDs have high safety standards and require extensive safety testing. In support of this is the fact that the finish of the two PCBs is different.
@@flandrble I would have thought most of these would not be installed in a shed but rather on a driveway near the vehicle to be charged. As a result,it would be likely that these are installed exposed to full direct sunlight, even in south Wales during the rare exposure of sun it is not uncommon for surfaces / enclosures etc to reach 56+ deg c. I have seen lcd failure due to this.
@@daic7274 tbh the build quality of this one to me doesn't look sturdy enough to be suitable for an outdoor installation, but it's very typical of indoor units.
NIce, so this is the same as a Phone "charger" haha, the charger is in the phone but the USB power supply lets the phone know how much current it can pull ( I think in the 2.0 USB spec at least) via the data pins.
AFAIK zappi have already changed MCU due to the shortages, don't know if they've started making the new version yet but they've just gone for an overpowered MCU as they're less prone to disappearing all at once
Now I understand why so many companies started producing their own charging points. Margins must be great, as it is not worth what they ask for it. Sadly, still very few good options out there. I chose zappi as well.
Great video! I have the untethered version of this unit in my garage. Has anyone done a teardown of the Hypervolt yet? Not sure I like the idea of a Raspberry Pi + SD card from a longevity/reliability standpoint. Think I prefer the PIC in the Zappi.
At how much it will be reading the SD card the card will have endourance for a decade, and the Raspberry PI is super reliable and used in some reliable stuff that also needs to be cheap.
@@jaycee1980 it seems like a sledgehammer solution for a kickoff. But also a lot more hassle for them to keep it up to date, as they'll need to keep an eye on OS security patches etc.
Great video, as usual.... What is needed if one wants to charge my car in DC directly from a battery storage which in turn is fed by the solar panel? In other words, how do I bypass the inverter?
Dave, want to do failure analysis on a Tesla Model 3 PCS (Power Conversion System)? Car shipped with a bad PCS and was replaced under warranty. The replacement PCS starting to fail at ~100k miles so out of warranty and had that replaced this week. $1100usd part and half that again in labor. Will ship the removed PCS at my cost to anyone who can explore why these are failing for Tesla Model 3 owners.
Hey Dave, I don't know if you talked about it already, but are "reverse chargers" available? By that I mean using an EV as energy storage for your home in the case of outages or for solar/energy cost reasons
You would need to modify your car, or buy one specially designed. You can't just plug into an EV and take power out of the plug, it must be designed to allow that.
The current Hyundai Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 have vehicle-to-load, that can supply up to 3.6 kW via a standard 240V 15A socket adapter. That'd be great during blackouts.
Be nice if they could just integrate it into the OBD-2 network in the vehicle itself (Edit: Assuming they still use CAN bus for everything in the EVs). That would mean sending data out on the connector so it would need some interface that guarantees a little more immunity to, say, 240V coming into the data network, but then everything like range, max charge, etc. could just be sent from the vehicle, and also updated in real time based on the parameters such as the current state of the battery, climate, etc. Rather than just typing it in, it would tell you the true range you have based on your charge at a glance, and be able to do other things as well.
Can you get rid of the device and connect mains to the car and with the resistors start the charge? I believe there is a big lie produced by the charger companies to make it complicated.
Actually more advanced use like V2G requires IEEE P1901.2 HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP) to be implemented. Which means the wall "charger" has to be at least a passthrough and ideally active in sensing the operation. Plus advanced uses such as V2H will require advanced power handling from it anyway.
Installation & Testing video is on EEVblog2 here: th-cam.com/video/EYx46kRv2Bw/w-d-xo.html
The best description for this device is a smart safety switch.
Pleeeease, stop calling everything smart!
It is not smart. It's an automation only, a highly deterministic process. All these "smart home" things, are just remote controlled devices, just happens that the remote control is not an IR remote but a device on an IP network and then it has to be called smart. 🤦🏻♂️ 🤦🏻♂️🤦🏻♂️
@@gabiold When connecting high power cables safety agencies require the power to be removed. (You're supposed to turn off the breaker before you connect or disconnect your motor home.) This thing is smarter than a circuit breaker in that automatically turn off the power. It detects electrical faults, informs the load how much power is available. It is there for safety. I'd admit 'smart' is overused to describe WiFi connected devices.
I really like how that 30A connector has a clear back, you can quickly check that its wired right and that if something goes wrong you can check the wiring easily
And 95% of the world just think, oooo pretty colours.
Yes that style of connector is basically the standard here in New Zealand and Australia, for industrial / high current / single or 3 phase use...they are generally called “56 series” because they are IP 56... They have a threaded collar / ring that mates with the socket and holds the connector & plug firmly connected...
@@andrewcourt5156 The plug Dave has is IP66 rated though. The series number is just that I believe. There's many other series available, e.g. 600 series 10A outlets.
Nah, it's clear so you can see whether it's full of water or have some killer spider beneath.
Makes me wonder why they don't make all plugs transparent.
23:02 Unexpected Final Fantasy victory fanfare
*Buster Sword Spin!*
Yeah, i was just thinking it was some random startup tone then went... wait a minute.... and rewound it about 5 times ot make sure.
It's a great little easter egg :)
Hope they don't get sued by Square Enix :)
As soon as I heard it, I paused the video to see if anyone else had pointed it out.
First step of installing a new charger: void the warranty
its not a charger.
@@Leon-pm6lr true, neither is your phone charger.
The world is full of misnomers.
It's made to open to install it, so honestly, probably not!
Seen many of these installed on Artisan Electric channel and they do have to take them apart that way to install and wire them.
It isn't wireless charging or a plug in unit - so you need to hook in the mains power to the terminals inside..
Cool to see one of my customers products being torn down…. Immediately sent a link to the production engineer I work with :)
My best guess about the series relay is those output pins are accessable via a finger and that needs to be safe during any single fault. A relay fusing or something like that is not an unreasonable single fault
I seem to remember reading somewhere about the different stages of the connection & handshake. One option is one relay activates at one particular stage passing and the other relay connects at the final stage. They could do this instead of using an "and" gate.
Videos like this helps me to pretend we still have a manufacturing industry in the UK. :)
designed in the UK perhaps..
these are very much built in the UK they are expanding rapidly the have moved to a larger temporary facility and are building a custom new facility near Grimsby. You would be surprised how much electronics manufacturing in the UK there is I sell electronics manufacturing equipment here and there are loads of them.
@@jaycee1980 Most definitely assembled in the UK.
To be fair, If something MUST be high quality it may well be made here. Just another reason why going green is a good thing for the UK economy. Genuinely, this will be good for the uk.
Brexit be damned but I bought one from the Netherlands. Love my Zappi, its awesome to be able to tweak and check everything.
Out of curiosity, have you tried removing the diode from your bench-top pilot circuit? I'm really curious if the EVSE's are checking for that today.
Back around 2012, I worked as an engineer responsible for the micro-controller code for a residential/commercial EVSE product line. We ran into an issue where someone on TH-cam showed our device not working with their Nissan Leaf but other competitor EVSE's worked fine. After some investigating, we found out that the pilot diode in the Leaf would fail after some period of time - our theory was due to insufficient transient/surge protection. We discovered that many EVSE's on the market did not check for the diode and therefore worked fine when the Leaf's diode failed. I recall having discussions with the project lead engineer whether we should be doing the pilot diode check (SAE and UL standards did not require it at the time), and decided that it should be there exactly for the same safety reason you described - in case the plug was dropped in a puddle and the resistance on the CP pin happened to be in the range to enable charging.
You essentially covered the reasons why EVSE is needed but I wanted to highlight one unique safety issue with EVs, and that is the fact that your vehicle's bodywork is effectively isolated from earth ground by rubber tires. One job of EVSE is to ensure that the body work is never ever ever at any potential other than earth ground.
Thank you for the video, really enjoyed it!
Diode problem issue. You are right Jeff!
The J1772/Type 1 connector predates the Type 2 connector by about 2 years or so. Its creation can basically be attributed to the California Air Resources Board (aka CARB). Some late 90s/early 2000s EVs like the Ford Ranger EV where already using the the original J1772 standard which was paired with the older "Avcon" connector. CARB wanted something that could handle higher current, as Avcon was limited to around 28A. The Yazaki Corp. of Japan stepped up with their design, the Type 1 connector we know today. CARB mandated that this new upcoming connector be the standard connector for plugin vehicles sold in California. Given that California basically made the EV market in the US, automakers complied and the SAE shortly adopted it as the J1772-2009 standard. Thus Type 1 became the defacto standard in the US, and more broadly North America. Around about the same time that the SAE adopted Type 1, German company Mennekes was proposing their "Type 2" connector to German automakers. They adopted the Type 2 connector and eventually the EU legally mandated it.
Some early EVs sold in EU countries where actually equipped with Type 1.
"Fun" fact: Since the signaling today is basically still the same, old EVs such as the aforementioned Ford Ranger EV equipped with the Avcon connector can be charged on modern EVSEs with a simple physical adapter. As long as the EVSE doesn't present a pilot signal greater than 28A, it will work fine.
Long post... But even cooler is the non-conductive induction paddle charging system used by the GM EV1 in the mid 90s. It was more advanced than the J1772 system we ended up with. It actually had 2-way communication between the car and the charger. The car could communicate back to the charger battery chemistry type, state of charge, etc..
Why J1772 didn't just have a CAN bus on it is beyond me.
@@markg735 a paper I read some time ago made mention that a design goal of the original J1772 signaling was that it could be implemented cheaply.. i.e. without a microcontroller.
The reason why the sticker was like that was an effort to compensate Australia being upside down. Obviously they got something wrong ;)
I think the little relay and opto is a zero crossing detector? So they can switch the big relays at the zero crossing.
If this is for zero crossing detect, why include the 5V relay? I don't see a reason why you would need or want to switch the line side AC input feeding an opto if all you want is zero-cross detect.
@@Smidge204 I have no idea. You can see though that the opto is on the switched side, not the control side, and it seems to be connected to the mains line. What else would it do?
I'm sure it's doing that somewhere, but that doesn't explain the relay.
It plays the Final Fantasy victory fanfare... it has my vote!
Nice video Dave, as always. I've been watching EVSE installs on Jordan's (Artisan Electrics) channel.
One feature that I wish we had in the US was the ability to monitor total energy draw and scale the charge rate down to avoid tripping the main breaker. Another thing that you guys got right was to standardize on connector. Here, Tesla uses theirs, Nissan has theirs, and everyone uses J1772.
The Startup Sound of the EVSE is the Final Fantasy Victory Jingle... :D
whoever stuck that Aussie flag on upside down was surely having a joke. also as you probably know, all UK electrical equipment is marked 230V 50Hz despite the supply having always been 240V. the EU standardised on 230V and everyone with 220V or 240V supplies just widened their tolerances rather than change any equipment
You can tell someone at Myenergi is a JRPG fan. The boot-up sound on the Zappi is the Final Fantasy victory fanfare.
🥳
These fancy EVSE boxes are nice but I really think every electric car should have a self-retracting, pull out 15A cord you can just plug into any standard outlet. It's 'technology' perfected by the humble domestic vacuum cleaner decades ago so there is no excuse.
But then how can they charge $1000 for a glorified relay (or 3 like this one) and special plug?
Kind of yes... but then again not. With an external unit you can just replace it with a more suitable one or whatever. Having it integrated means you will be lugging around little bit of weight around even if you don't want to. And having an integrated thing repaired at a shop can often cost more than buying a new external one anyways. I like the modularity aspect more than the convenience of integrated. And the integrated one would have to fit all kinds of different country standards and adapted when cars get shipped from country to country etc. If the whole world ran on the same standard for plugs and amps etc. then it would make a bit more sense.
@@benbaselet2026 That is not a valid argument: EVs have unnecessary complicated charging protocols. EVs should only need a 3 phase 32A or bigger male red CEE connector under the filler lid and be compatible with absolutely everything carrying a voltage. The car should naturally be able to work on single phase as well as 3 phase, and charging current is set on the dash before plugging in. The simpler, the more future proof. People have handled AC connectors for a century. This is just a blatant money grab on par with ink cartridges and vacuum cleaner bags! AC is a common good, and monopolizing a shared public funded resource is a crime.
@@Tore_Lund All well and good until someone plugs in their car with a 0.75mm2 extension cord and then says it's good for 32A.
Cars are often charged in the rain so waterproofing is important, domestic sockets can be waterproofed with boxes but are those boxes foolproof?
I get to watch you do the things I would want to do with these gadgets while you teach me the things I want to learn. Thank you!
Cheers from the Ouachita mountains.
Thats an absolutely massive box for such a small amount of circuitry.
Yeah, but it doubles as a cord hanger when unused.
Might be a bit bigger for the 3 phase version
true but good for cooling/ air circulation.
Yeah but you need cable termination space and also the hanger on the front + cord wrap around.
The exact same rear housing is used in the 3 phase models, those boards are completely stuffed.
Even the relays are external to the board.
I like the idea of charging a car off of solar, but since you're going from DC to AC back to DC bothers the efficiency geek in me. If only there was a way to bypass the inverter.
All I got with my car was a type 2 cable. Had to buy my own 13A charger while waiting for the 7kw charger to be installed. I have a Podpoint brand one with tethered cable, it has a current clamp to monitor total load on the incoming supply so it doesn’t overload the supply wiring to the house.
Best description I've seen of what these do is to negotiate the parameters of the charging session, based on the joint capabilities of the vehicle and the power supply. We are indeed weird, bruh!
Absolute crack up about the sticker Dave, I totally support you removing it!
Worth noting that EVs also have a Minimum charge current of 6A. So if your solar is exporting less than 6A, you either need to export that "for a pittance" or make up the rest by importing from the grid.
I think the two relays in series are for independent control and safety. So I guess one relay will be your PEN / earth fault isolator. The other relay will be for regular control functions.
I work on programmable safety systems in the process industry. We often have two valves in series on a particular pipe. One will be for process control, and the other is a safety shutdown valve which intervenes if pressure / level etc is outside allowed limits. Safety systems are always independently controlled in case of a failure on your process control system.
That's interesting. A few years ago I found an EV charger by the side of the road and couldn't figure out what it was at first because it was just a black box with the wires cut off. Mine was completely different inside. It had several different transformers, inductors, fuses, circuit breakers, and some sort of power diodes or switching devices on heat sinks. Maybe it was a DC charger? It was a lot more complex than yours.
This very exiting, I really wanted to see a tear down of this.
Edit : my disappointment is immeasurable.
I fitted a 3 position switch to the connector on my dumb EVSE's cable to present 3 different resistances to the PP pin in the car. This fools the car into thinking the cable has different current capacity (13A, 20A, 32A) to make best use of our solar. It can even be switched during use.
The double relay in series is quite common in industrial safety circuits (the one triggered by the big red mushroom switch). If i recall correctly is even mandatory in the EU Machine regulation.
It's done because, if one contactor weld shut, the other trips and open the circuit. I also think that the safety module can also detect in one is faulty and refuse to energize the other one.
Can’t wait to see more on eevblog2
Funny that I got a quote from my electrician yesterday for this unit. Let's see if it's worth the money. Thanks.
How many zeros on that quote?
@@--Nath-- I paid £700 for mine, and that was with the grant money included, so around a £1k without, I think.
It would be awesome to use the dc pins of the full ccs type 2 and see if you could emulate dc fast charging from LiFePO4 and solar direct with some boost converter or something.
that beep soungs like the battle victory music from final fantasy
The small relay and opto-coupler is probably a PE detection circuit. What it actually does is leaking a bit of current from Line to PE while measuring it. Current above predefined threshold means proper connection of PE. In some countries this may also allow 20mA instead of 6mA RCD.
Least you got a zappie and not a HyperVolt… something still very unsettling about having a raspberry pi which I don’t control sitting on my home wifi, in an always powered on box accessible to anyone on the outside of my house.
Apparently it’s not a problem though! Many layers of encryption 🤦♂️ yet they won’t send me a trial unit a free PenTest! 🙄
Why do two of the current clamps on the ground and P/N have 4 wires coming out them? For current sensing 2 wires are enough. What is it doing?
The wireless antenna is most likely to allow communicate with Myenergi's Hub. The kW from your solar panels will be limited by your inverter. I did a tutorial on how to fit a Tesla charging button to the Zappi charging plug. Theoretically speaking, if the resistor in the plug was changed from 220 ohms to 210 ohms would it be possible to draw 34 amps from the Zappi or would there be some other limitation? I note that the relays are limited to 35 amps.
We open sourced a version of SAE J3068 at the University of Delaware. It’s the new North American standard for three-phase AC charging (using mennekes but higher voltage and current) and new digital control pilot called LIN-CP. It’s targeted for a medium and heavy duty use.
It is best to have two clamps, one for in incoming and one for solar production for the best monitoring. (I have a Zappi 2 myself).
Is the second relay (in series) for the fault protection? The CT label is a hint...
Hi Dave?
So this year my brother bought a VW Transporter electric van. He loves it, but "It/They!" have a fault where maximun mileage is only 50miles. It should be around 80-90. Also our area doesnt have a VW Auto electrician. VW said they might load his van on a truck and take it elsewhere in UK to look at.
He even has to remove terminals from lead 12v battery , to reset stuff, or charger sometimes doesnt work when at home.
Also maximun charge per hour is only 3-4 miles per hour. What rubbish
The Aussie connector looks rather similar to what is often known as a "Commando" plug here in the UK. EV chargers are typically permanently installed here, with a 32A feed taken from the consumer unit (fuse board!)
And, of course, whilst all sensible countries have standardized on "commando" connectors there are a few places that have decided for no apparent reason to go their own way or to stay with a previous standard when having just the one universal worldwide standard is the most sensible thing to do.
@@dglcomputers1498 Do you mean the USA, Aus and Japan? As you say, most countries have standardised on 16 /32/ 63A 'Commando' connectors
Passenger EVs love 240 split-phase, just the same as 230 single-phase.
The IEC EV standards allow for a hot “neutral” terminal on the connector. Not just because of the USA and Japan, Belgium and Norway for example also have older installations with Delta 230 connected transformers (no neutral) and on those EVSE use two hots.
Charging your EV on excess solar is the icing on the cake. Followed by driving with your solar electric vehicle past a service station checking out the latest pricing for dinosaur juice.
Neat. Good implementation of KISS.
little relay is commutating input ground cable to ground checking circuit. if check fails, microcontroller turns off the relay to remove 'ground' cable from the plug output ground
I personally use the term 'charge point' for those things.
The flag is upside down clearly because it was stuck on in the northern hemisphere.
No worries about the overvoltage in AUS network. UK is using 240 V, actually.They did that while Europe was still using 220 V. This 230 V on the box is to comply with new UE regulations. The tolerance in the EU standard is 10%, so they could run the network up to 253 V theoretically.
They often do run the mains voltage to over 250 in the UK, at least in my area anyway, I regularly see 252volts on my supply but it's more usually around 248 to 250.
@@Tekwyzard Your kettle must boil water in no time ;). The supply company might run the line higher, to account for the voltage drops along the supply line.
@@piotrts It does boil rather quickly, yes:-) But it makes building mains powered electronic projects a bit more interesting. I live really close to a substation, but suspect the system is set up to cope with repercussions of everyone on my estate watching 'Coronation St' or some such BS.
Just had a thought- why not do the trip tests using high power variable resistors to see at what current they go'. Connect between the output live (or "active" in aussie) and the input Neutral and slowly turn down the resistance... -click. 👍🏻
What is Pilot PWM?? I know PWM from my synthesizer, there it means Pulse Width Modulation. What it doing in a charger?
Might be best to change the Ethernet cable connecting the CT's to a control type cable to differentiate it from other Comms cabling in the house. CT's can output high voltage if there is no load, ie some NBN tech cuts the cable. I'd go with a screened control cable and look at fusing(PTC Thermistor)/over voltage(MOV) the outputs of the CT's at the main board. I haven't done any calcs to see what power we are talking about but I think the the CT V could be dangerous if the cable was cut.
Hi, so I guess I can simply have a standard metal enclosure in my garage, supplied via 40 amp dedicated mcb in my house, with a suitable 50 amp contactor in the enclosure, contactor controlled by din rail timer, to only close the contactor 23:30h until 05:30h for cheap rate.
Having a 200 ohm resistor ?
Solar aware - what use is that? EV charging at home is usually overnight. What you really need with a 7 kW or greater home EVSE is to have smart load control built in so that it backs off the charge rate when you turn on everything else in you home otherwise you risk blowing your main supply fuse.
Lots of equipment (inc this device) does exactly that... they have a current clamp to measure incoming load and back off when load increases. The solar aware bit is for people who do, and can charge in the day, and when linked with the battery storage systems also tries to minimise use of the grid as best it can (how it does that can be programmed).
It also has a load of safety things like type B rcd, PEN fault detection and usual other stuff.
Seen lots of installers rave about it compared to other systems.
Depends on your usage scenario. The car is often at home charging durign the day, I ride my bike to work a lot.
It depends on your situation. And it comes as a trivial freebie when implementing load control, which yes, these do, because yes, the engineers were actually thinking when they designed it.
Why would you charge your car with expensive energy overnight when you could let it fill up for free on the weekends and only add an hour or so during the week if it runs too low?
This solar detector is brilliant….
Are they doing circuit pre-charging to reduce internal relay arcing.
Can this be connected to solar panel with inverter? Or it will draw too much amps and drop the voltage ?
Why not use MOSFETs in place of the relays? I've noticed most devices in high current applications using relays while a single MOSFET could work for DC, and two MOSFETs can make a solid state relay that should handle the same current. Likely at a cheaper price. Am I missing something here?
MOSFET triac and similar solid state devices must not be used for isolation.
That chiptune sounds like the victory fanfare from Final Fantasy games.
We use the mi energy controllers for water heating with excess solar. They work really well for that.
In the UK the DNO(distribution network operator) in our area (Western Power) is installing three phase to new builds now. This blew me away learning this. This is for super fast charging for cars and heat pumps/ air conditioning. In UK most outlets I have measured a good 240v so same as Australia just we needed to move to 230v to conform to EU guess what we left the EU.
Unfortunately the National Grid is already at capacity.
@@SimonCoates At peak time. And it's running at about 20% capacity at its lowest. Which means that there is no problem, as cars need about 1 hour (single-phase, or 20 minutes 3-phase) worth of charging per day on average. Plenty of hours each night when the grid is idle.
The biggest problem with the grid is imbalance in the system. Having three phase and smart tariffs will ballance the network and because of renewable energy the gas turbine network is being upgraded to bring balance back
I'd love to see a heat map of this thing while it's running.
i love to see how well it can control (and how fast!) the charge current based on the solar.
I wonder can't they design a system to determine the limits of the line, e.g., base it on voltage drop or any other measurement to determine what the wiring can handle just in case someone does something like put a 30 amp charger on a 20 amp circuit but leaves the device set to 30 amps?
I think there would be too many variables for voltage drop, unless you set it really high I suppose, but that could easily be above the current rating limit. For example, dropping 5 volts on 100' of 30a wire is probably fine as that's a lot of length to absorb the heat, but if you had 5 volts of drop on 10' of wire, that could be a sign of an issue.
I get about 2-4 volts of drop when charging my car, and I only charge at 23 amps out the of circuit's max of 60 peak, 48 continuous (6 AWG copper). And I don't have far runs. The 200 amp service entry only runs 8 feet from the meter to panel, and only another 13' from the panel to EVSE. Cranking up charging to the max 40 amps of the EVSE, I usually get near 6 volts of drop. Which is a lot so I never charge that high. Everything gets warm and the car's cooling circuit kicks on a lot, which is all wasted energy. Also the voltage to my house can fluctuate ~10 volts throughout the day, so it would have to measure the voltage at the panel somehow to know what the drop between panel and EVSE is.
If the EVSE has NEMA plug, the max current should already be set from the factory, and the wiring in the house should already be up to code for that receptacle. If it's a hard wired EVSE, then more likely it's going to be installed by a licensed electrician or by a knowledgeable owner who knows what they're doing and gets it inspected by an official.
It's an interesting thought though. Perhaps another way to have a safety like that is to have temp sensors on the line side terminal block and ambient air of the EVSE. If you've undersized the wiring, the temp difference between the block and ambient would reach a certain threshold and start to limit the current.
I know the Tesla portable EVSE has a temp sensor in the plug head to throttle current if it gets too warm from a loose fitting or overloaded receptacle. At least the US versions do.
I'm surprised how big it is, it's mostly full of air! I have a Wallbox Pulsar (32A-7kW), it would basically fit inside the Zappi's empty space!
The WB inside is much denser and it has no screen or buttons, you have to use the phone app for everything.
Thanks, great video. I would like to see Open EVSE videos!
I watched another video with a rolec charger and that one does not have a printed circuit board like this.. what is the difference between the hardware from both units i wonder?
Due to chip shortages I know they had to pivot to a different micro processor, not sure if the one Dave has is the current version or previous version.
Good to see a bit of UK made equipment going for export 🙂
I can't find anywhere, what is on the communication pins of a DC charger do you maybe know that?
Standard? Not here in the USA there isn't...Tesla proprietary seems most common by far but non-Teslas use various other plugs. One of the big problems with EVs here being you have to find the "right" charger that you can plug it into where you are going.
Ahhh lots of connectors to carry out lovely…
You can find chargers for anything in the US, the problem is that all the charging networks outside of Tesla are horrendously unreliable. They are down all the time some almost permanently.
For 32A single phase in the EU, you'd probably be using an IEC309-2 comformant plug? If there's anything for "home" use that isn't one of those industrial plugs, I haven't seen it.
That said I'm not an electrical engineer so please correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: Here in Spain for up to 10A without earth, we have the Europlug, and for up to 16A and things that require earthing, Schuko.
How much did thy charge for that? I'm thinking of getting the Kia ev6.
Nice video but i say this boxies are to expensiv compared to what is inside! The charging of EV with AC is very easy. But have you ever seen a wallbox how communicate with powerline to the car and shows the SOC in a display?
The RCD module could be produced by third part company that remark for them. The reason may be that RCDs have high safety standards and require extensive safety testing. In support of this is the fact that the finish of the two PCBs is different.
Only rated to 40C?!
even in australia its pretty hard for it to be 40C in the shade/shed
@@flandrble I would have thought most of these would not be installed in a shed but rather on a driveway near the vehicle to be charged. As a result,it would be likely that these are installed exposed to full direct sunlight, even in south Wales during the rare exposure of sun it is not uncommon for surfaces / enclosures etc to reach 56+ deg c. I have seen lcd failure due to this.
@@daic7274 tbh the build quality of this one to me doesn't look sturdy enough to be suitable for an outdoor installation, but it's very typical of indoor units.
NIce, so this is the same as a Phone "charger" haha, the charger is in the phone but the USB power supply lets the phone know how much current it can pull ( I think in the 2.0 USB spec at least) via the data pins.
Right, this is really called an EVSE, not a charger.
I can say with authority that some PIC24s are not immune to the current chipocalpse. Not as bad at STM32s, but not much better either.
AFAIK zappi have already changed MCU due to the shortages, don't know if they've started making the new version yet but they've just gone for an overpowered MCU as they're less prone to disappearing all at once
Now I understand why so many companies started producing their own charging points. Margins must be great, as it is not worth what they ask for it. Sadly, still very few good options out there. I chose zappi as well.
Thanks for sharing Dave. :)
This is very interesting. Thanks 👍
Could you, please tell me what sensor was used for the residual-current device (RCD)?
Great video! I have the untethered version of this unit in my garage.
Has anyone done a teardown of the Hypervolt yet? Not sure I like the idea of a Raspberry Pi + SD card from a longevity/reliability standpoint. Think I prefer the PIC in the Zappi.
Using a Pi would almost certainly have me thinking "Do they really know what they're doing?"
At how much it will be reading the SD card the card will have endourance for a decade, and the Raspberry PI is super reliable and used in some reliable stuff that also needs to be cheap.
@@jaycee1980 it seems like a sledgehammer solution for a kickoff. But also a lot more hassle for them to keep it up to date, as they'll need to keep an eye on OS security patches etc.
Was that a Final Fantasy tune?
Great video, as usual....
What is needed if one wants to charge my car in DC directly from a battery storage which in turn is fed by the solar panel? In other words, how do I bypass the inverter?
How is the isolation distance on the pcb between live and neutral at the incoming terminal block
Lol, "Anyways those yanks are weird." :-)
17:38 was that the Final Fantasy victory fanfare?
No idea, but everyone is saying that.
@@EEVblog yes, it's "Victory Theme" Final Fantasy Series by Nobou Uematsu.
“Those Yanks are weird.” We like our power system and we’re proud of it.
20:00 so, does it detect the lack of earth while charging? If the feature was declared but not implemented its a fail.
I've mounted one like this recently, let's see what you have to say about it!
Dave, want to do failure analysis on a Tesla Model 3 PCS (Power Conversion System)? Car shipped with a bad PCS and was replaced under warranty. The replacement PCS starting to fail at ~100k miles so out of warranty and had that replaced this week. $1100usd part and half that again in labor. Will ship the removed PCS at my cost to anyone who can explore why these are failing for Tesla Model 3 owners.
Everytime Dave says "Old Dirt" it sounds like I'm watching a space based sci-fi film.
That would be "old dart"
Hey Dave, I don't know if you talked about it already, but are "reverse chargers" available? By that I mean using an EV as energy storage for your home in the case of outages or for solar/energy cost reasons
Kinda?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
It's mostly still in testing it seems.
You would need to modify your car, or buy one specially designed. You can't just plug into an EV and take power out of the plug, it must be designed to allow that.
I believe the F-150 lightning can do that? Not too sure
Yes, it's called Vehicle to Grid.
The current Hyundai Ionic 5 and Kia EV6 have vehicle-to-load, that can supply up to 3.6 kW via a standard 240V 15A socket adapter. That'd be great during blackouts.
Second relay in series may be for the PEN fault isolation.
Be nice if they could just integrate it into the OBD-2 network in the vehicle itself (Edit: Assuming they still use CAN bus for everything in the EVs). That would mean sending data out on the connector so it would need some interface that guarantees a little more immunity to, say, 240V coming into the data network, but then everything like range, max charge, etc. could just be sent from the vehicle, and also updated in real time based on the parameters such as the current state of the battery, climate, etc. Rather than just typing it in, it would tell you the true range you have based on your charge at a glance, and be able to do other things as well.
Dave. What is the power rating of your resistance box?
The Signal Swing is + - 12 V the Earth is 0 .....the Diode is to drop the Signal only on the Positive Side of the Signal..
Can you get rid of the device and connect mains to the car and with the resistors start the charge? I believe there is a big lie produced by the charger companies to make it complicated.
Actually more advanced use like V2G requires IEEE P1901.2 HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP) to be implemented. Which means the wall "charger" has to be at least a passthrough and ideally active in sensing the operation. Plus advanced uses such as V2H will require advanced power handling from it anyway.