Robb's Will: How Can Jon Snow Take Winterfell?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
- In book 3 of A Song of Ice and Fire, Robb Stark writes a will before his death at the Red Wedding. He wants his brother Jon Snow to succeed him as King in the North and Lord of Winterfell - but Robb did not know all his other siblings were still alive. By the end of ASOIAF, who will have Winterfell: Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran, or Rickon?
Also, Howland Reed was mostly left out of Game of Thrones, but his impact on the future ASOIAF books will be major. Could Howland tell Jon about Rhaegar and Lyanna?
Intro music - "Above The Vast Clouds Of The Aquamarine Peak" by Quest Master: questmaster.bandcamp.com/albu...
Map of Westeros by Tibstabs: www.deviantart.com/tibstabs/a...
Darkstar animation & other art by Francy Sketches: nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tu...
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
1:47 Robb's will
6:39 Catelyn
7:49 Who knows?
14:37 The rightful heir
17:48 Does it matter?
22:14 Last words
#asoiaf #gameofthrones #houseofthedragon - บันเทิง
A big part of Jon's refusal of being Lord of Winterfell had a lot to do with the terms of Stannis' offer.
Stannis required burning of the Winterfell gods wood and acceptance of the red God.
Jon could not under those circumstances. He'd earn the ire of the entire north by forsaking the old gods
indeed. He wants to be his fathers son but not by beeing an Oathbreaker burning down the godswood. And also Stannis didnt offer to reinstate him to his rightfull position but to basicly handing him an ownerless seat if he abliages to his new obligations. Thats a huge difference for a feudal lord
Very true. But again, I think Jon has come to peace with the fact that he’s a bastard and he doesn’t “deserve” Winterfell. A lot of his POV chapters deal with that feeling of imposter syndrome, like he doesn’t belong. Maybe that is foreshadowing that Jon will turn that on it’s head and become Lord of Winterfell, or more likely, Jon will serve as regent for Rickon. That would be a nice compromise I think.
yeah I was going to point out that, while Stannis did offer him that, he also asked a lot especially for Jon in turn. Also the practical problem of Winterfell not being Stannis's to give at the moment was part of the problem.
@@CrusaderChrisHe may have moved past wanting Winterfell for himself, but he betrayed his oath and died to take Winterfell for Arya and his family. And from what we have seen with Beric and Stoneheart, people resurrected by fire magic seem to focus on what their goals were when they died. Beric continued the BWB, Stoneheart is bent on revenge, and Jon will want Winterfell.
I personally think the story is heading in the direction of Stoneheart (Catelyn) finding out about Jon’s true heritage and placing Robb’s crown on Jon’s head…that would literally make the story come full circle and make for an incredibly emotional moment.
I just don’t see why George would keep her around, with Robb’s crown in her possession, with Robb’s will still floating around, Howland Reed in the mix, and the long established unwarranted hatred she has for Jon just for there to never be a pay off for it all or a moment of reconciliation between them…I could be wrong but I just don’t think George set all this up for it to have no pay off.
It could be that the crown goes to Rickon, and Stoneheart, now knowing of Jon's true heritage, will reconcile with him before biting the dust.
I feel like GrrM is too grimdark for such emotional reconciliation. Personally I think he will go with a slightly more melancholy resolution, what that is I don't know.
Though I agree it would be nice for John and Catelyn to get that level of closure, I just don't think Westeros is the kind of place where much of that happens unfortunately
I get goosebumps just thinking about her giving him Robb’s crown, having a moment, and kneeling
@@jamesnave1249I could see either happening, or perhaps something in between.
Like maybe Catelyn will somehow pass the flame of life from herself to Jon like Beric did for her. A moment of atonement for her neglect of his childhood and a hope for the future of the North and her remaining children.
@@tiringsarcasm that would be nice, but I feel she is too far away being all the way down in the Riverlands for her to be able to get up to the wall to resarect him, let alone have a narrative reason to head that way in the first place.
What if Robb legitimized Jon but did not specify that he was legitimizing him as a son of Ned, and then Howland reveals to everyone that Jon was a bastard of Rhaegar thus meaning that Robb accidentally gave him a claim not to Winterfell but the Iron Throne?
Unfortunately that won't matter. GRRM will find a way to make sure Jon isn't king lol
Legitimization is legitimization. If Jon Snow is legitimized as a Stark he's legitimized as a Targaryen. There's no need for Robb to not specify who Jon's father is.
But he isnt a bastard of rhaegar. His parents were married, and there isnt exactly a history of monogamy with the targaryens.
So he isnt a bastard, just a secret son.
He's not legitimized to the Iron Throne because the line is now Baratheon by combat. Don't know why people keep forgetting this. All of Robert's kin must be killed for even a chance for it to revert back or incest must be proven and Stannis dies with his daughter.
Why would Robb legitimizing Jon Snow (Stark) make me the heir to the Iron Throne? To Robb he is the King of the North, totally independent of the Seven (Six) Kingdoms. It would be more like Jon Stark would be (hypothetically) the King in the North and King of the Six Kingdoms. One monarch, two thrones. And who even knows if R+L=J is even still the thing, it's still unconfirmed in the books. I gotta hope George is making some crazy changes from the show that explains why Winds is taking *so fucking long*.
"Howland's Moving Castle." nice....
Jon turned down Stannis before his death. His Night's Watch vows no longer apply. I think he will accept Robb's will. What better way to unite the North against the Others than as King in the North? And if Howland, Sam or Bran reveal his true parentage he can unite the realm as king.
This is why I believe we will never get an end to The Song of Ice and Fire, its just too complicated. The world is too big with too many characters. It must be a nightmare for George RR Martin to handle all of this, so many plot points to keep track of, even if he does end it eventually, I think there will be a lot of fans disappointed by the ending, there's just too much going on for it to be ended without glaring plot holes.
The too many characters thing never made sense to me. They’re heading to an apocalypse. Would make complete sense if the characters were thinned out.
@@goffokfm6821I agree. I think a lot of characters are going to die in Winds which should, theoretically, make Dream an easier book to write.
I agree to a certain extent, but also, George has made it very clear that not every single story or tail, or a hunch in a book, or what one of the character says is necessarily true. And not all them have to be wrapped up nicely, because that’s the way it actually works in reality. That’s why he calls his writing like a gardener. Because he plants seeds everywhere, sometimes they will grow, sometimes they won’t, they don’t all have to grow. Because some of them are deliberate or accidental red herrings. Which actually makes it much more interesting.
@@ranica47 But how does George make those deaths satisfying? If he kills off a lot of characters it can easily upset a ton of fans if not done right.
@@rocksjoshua I doubt cares much about upsetting fans.
Absolutely livid that you said Jamie would use a catapult instead of the superior trebuchet. 11:07
Absolutely unwatchable
Great catch with the Captain of the Miriam being present. He could be quite important, both via knowing Robb's will and because Theon's only hope of an heir may be from the Captain's daughter from his first chapter!
Great point! Thanks for commenting, I like your videos a lot!
@@CrusaderChris Likewise! If you'd ever want to work together on something, feel free to reach out.
Would love to see you two work together!
Oh wow I missed this completely, so Theon has an heir!
A winged wolf in chains might also be Jon. A Targaryen (dragon) and a Stark (wolf) who is percieved as a bastard and a sworn brother to the nights watch (in chains).
That’s the most real truth in entire Westeros. We all know Jon is a dragon by blood and wolf by appearance. He is caged in his vows in the wall and can’t really do anything for his people in the north. When he is focused on the greater threats beyond the wall. This winged dream about chains only goes more to Jon than bran stark.
My only observation is that Jon is dead. And he will, most probably, change for the worst when he's resurrected. We don't know what the change might be, but we it could weight in on his feelings towards Winterfell's succession.
Since resurrection seems to be about keeping what is left of the “soul” back in the body, he might have a better shot of turning out more normal than most. Unlike stoneheart, his soul is possibly safe in ghost while he’s dead
@@evanmcdonald9134 I disagree, resurrection has proven to be the cause of an over fixation on the trauma and spirit of their last moments. Beric continued his mission from Ned Stark, because it was his last virtue, Catelyn continued revenge against all who opposed her family, reflecting her last moments martyring a mentally disabled person in the name of revenge. It all points to Jon being a furious rebel and wildling (old world) loyalist.
My observation (and hear me out) is that Jon died first from chickenpox when he was a little kid. Why do I think so?
1. Melisandre mentions to Davos in Castle Black that she has no powers (i.e. to resurrect others), she just prays and the Lord of Light reacts as he wants to.
2. Catelyn Stark confessed in Season 1 how she (feeling horrible about how she treated that innocent motherless kid before who's now fighting for his life) kept praying all night to the gods to spare Jon's life.
3. In the books Jon can also warg into Ghost and he mentions "Ghost is more alive than I am" which (knowing George Martin) must be a telling line.
4. Jon has weird experiences to say the least whenever he goes to the crypt below Winterfell.
5. The direwolves are meant to foreshadow each Stark kid's story one way or another. What would a direwolf named GHOST foreshadow? Exactly.
@@manwiththeredface7821 well whatever was insinuated in the show does not apply to the books. They are two completely different stories set in a similar verse.
@@nIhIl34less completely different, and more the same story that diverges at a certain point.
I think Jon will end up as king in the north. The north will be so burnt out they won’t give a damn, Sansa will be busy in the Vale and Rickom is to young to be a wartime king. GRRM is a big history buff and this would match with the kingdom of Wessex where the kingdom was in a time of war and instead of traditionally going for the kings son they lords chose his brother Alfred the Great who united much of England against the Viking invasions much like how Jon will unite Westeros against the others.
Robb legitimizing Jon also puts Jon ahead of Bran and Rickon as he is older and is now a true born son of Ned.
Just noticed Jon has King's blood from both his ice and fire side.
Rob Stark (his cousin) and the Mad King (his grandfather).
He wouldn't get it from his cousin, but the Starks are the Northern Kings, so definitely from his maternal ancestors further back in time, and from his most recent Targaryen ancestry as his father was a Targaryen Prince, son of a King.
I love how the Myraham literally is hiding in plain sight with a heir to the Iron Islands and legitimate succession to the North aboard.
Imagine if he somehow gets shireen and myrcella too and he's just sailing around with the solutions to everyone's problems XD
That whole conversation with Robb and Catlyn should've been present in the TV shows. I know it probably didn't mean much but to me it shows just how much friendship and trust that Robb had with Jon, and how he was one of the fewer people in the Stark family to consider him a brother, much more an equal - to the point where he's willing to trust Jon to lead the fight should he ever die.
It's just a sweet and amazing bromance between the two, and just shows that they were more than just half-siblings (cousins in reality)
They aren't step siblings and Cat was not Jon's stepmom. They can only be considered as step siblings if Jon was the son of Ned's first wife but he's not. Jon was known as the product of an affair while being married to Cat.
@@yamatonadeshiko567 that's not exactly how being a step parent works.
18:37 - I think that if Jon is resurrected, he might feel differently, and beyond that, I can't help but imagine that Robb being the one to issue it rather than Stannis would likely influence Jon's decision, as from that angle he would not be denying some non-Northman, he would be directly defying the will of his brother, and if Robb thinks that Jon should legally inherit over Sansa, I can imagine that Jon would be more willing to respect that compared to simply, in Stannis's offer, merely usurping Sansa, since Stannis has no direct authority to decide the line of the throne of Winter in the eyes of the North.
Of course if Rickon somehow doesn't end up dead (I wouldn't bet on him living tho), I can imagine that there is no way that Jon does anything other than be his regent, and even in that case, he would likely be content to let the Manderlys pick Rickon's regent.
there are some problems for Jon to overcome if he is resurrected purely by Lord of Light magic. The biggest issue will be that Jon will not be alive. Oh yes, he is moving around, talking and such... of course, but Beric is not truly a living body. His wounds don't heal, his heart doesn't beat, and most importantly for Jon's as a lord, he is reproductively dead.
Now of course if Jon comes as something... other. Well, who knows what Jon SNOW will want.
Really wonderful and thorough video! The only consideration that might change things re: what Jon wants, is that well, he died. George has said that if you're going to bring a character back to life, they must be changed dramatically in some way, it has to mean something. We don't know how he'll be or what he'll want when he comes back. Perhaps abandoning the Watch that slew him and taking power for himself in the form of Winterfell will be exactly what he wants now. Vengeful, like his Aunt Cat when she came back.
i think that the show showed a bit of what the change might be, I think he will stop being so naive and believing people are just honest and good, I feel like first he will feel ok to leave the watch as he already died as a brother, now he's free to do as he pleases and I think that's what he will do, and that's how he would change too, as in he will no longer be bound to his pride and honor and instead be more selfish or selfcentered? that would be a cool twist to his character the coming from the typical hero to something more complex
I think you're right, i believe that George main reason to "kill" John off is to actually free him from his oath in the nightwatch so he can take a bigger role in terms of politics, he was raised by Ned after all, there is no way he would have broke his oath otherwise, not while being alive at least
Your right. Thats why i'm feeling a litle nervous about the future of Ghost. He could die so Jhon could come back
He's going to have been inside Ghost for a while, and just like Bran & Varamyr lose the boundary of what makes up their "self" when they become merged with the animals they warg into, Jon spending a bunch of time in Ghosts body while his real body sits in the ice cells will likely turn him much more wolf like, realist / roguish and aggressive. Plus he's gonna have huge stab wounds and be undead
the targaryen coin will be flipped again after his 'rebirth', they talk about that quote a lot in the book but with no targaryen actually being born in present day, that could also be a metaphor for Jons resurrection
mainly I hope that the Blackfish shows up again. but yes, I think it likely that Robb legitimized and made Jon his heir
I think you are over estimating how kind Jon will be after he is resurrected!!
Great video though!
Yes I would love too see a video about Jon's connection to the Winterfell crypts.
King Stannis will hand deliver Winterfell AND Rickon. In a way.
Stannis will die betrayed and willingly join the others and betray the living by letting the others theough the night fort.
“King” stannis won’t even survive next book
@@sit-insforsithis1568how will he die? The Bolton's are fucked, the battle in the ice will see all the Frey army drown and the manderlys side with Stannis. They Trojan horse into winterfell with Frey armor and kill the Bolton's as they sleep, and then the other northern lords turn on the remaining Bolton's.... Stannis can't die unless the others breach the wall in the next book, which likely won't be until the final chapter.
@@sit-insforsithis1568king Stannis will rule the seven kingdoms after single-handled kill all the Daenerys dragons and the Others
Stannis will die from starvation after a siege. Jon and Davos will reach them, but Stannis is too weak due to Melisandre Shadow baby creation to survive the ordeal.
Kat finding out johns snows true parents is my #1 most anticipated moment in the future books
Have you considered the theory that Jayne might indeed be pregnant with Robb’s child? I’ve seen some interesting theory videos proposing that this might be the reason why she’s appearing again in a dance with dragons… and is known that she will appear again in Winds. Because though it doesn’t seen it, it really has been less than nine months since the red wedding in the story, even if it’s been two decades in reality
House Liddle and possibly the other Northern Mountain Clans know Bran is alive when Bran and company run into a member of House Liddle heading north to the wall. Rickon's fate is likely to be a "shaggy dog story" (i.e. a longwinded story with an anticlimax) so while people may rally around him to retake the North from the Bolton's, Rickon will probably die during it, thus leaving the succession in limbo as you pointed out GRRM likes to do and the Northern houses will have to settle on someone and that might be Jon for the time being until Sansa, Arya or Bran come back into the fold.
But didn't Robb kicked Sansa out of the succession line? So that the Lannisters could never have a claim to the north
@@Melissa-hd3jr Yes, to prevent Tyrion from claiming the North. It's possible the marriage could be annulled. Either way, succession is messy in ASOIAF.
I think Rickon will have a great part to play,he is extremely powerful for a boy of his age,he is part of Manderly's conspiracy and Davos knows about him (so Stannis may know about him if the two meet). Also he is currently on Skagos,where there is definitely something going on with the children of the forest's magic and there might also be something connected with dragons (Cannibal),or dragon's eggs. If there are indeed dragons' eggs on Skagos,that would link very well with Jon/Azor Ahai and the waking of "dragons out of stone"
You are becoming one of my fav ASOIAF youtubers man! Presentation is like Alt Shift x and narration like Whycreate. Would definately love a Jon and the crypts video
And a chilled Indeepgeek voice!
Your editing is terrific, awesome vid
You did a good job on this bro .
This is your best work so far Chris. Keep it up my man!
Wait. If the Boltons ever flayed captured Stark Kings and Princes, why does the house still exist? Surely, torturing and killing hostages is the type of thing that justifies you being taken off the map in Westeros.
All the Reynes and Tarbecks ever did in the Westerlands was laugh and skimp on debt payments 😢
This is the same world were the peakes killed a targaryen king and still exists don't think to hard about it
If I was Lord of Winterfell, I’d ban all knives from the Dreadfort
Because when the Botons rebeled only half of them does so when they fail only the rebellious members die while the "ignorant" members get spared
Keep up the great work! I always love ASOIAF videos, especially those that delve into the lore of the books and not really the shows.
This channel reminds me a lot of AltShift X and the quality style, great channel and I hope to see even more!
Love your intros. Keep up the good work!
Isn't there a dragon egg in the Winterfell Crypt? Or at least rumours of one. Is that what is drawing Jon to the Crypts in his dreams? Just as Dany had dreams of her eggs before they hatched.
Dragon will be to small to fight.
@@marsmars2895 no but I mean, maybe why Jon keeps having dreams of the crypt is because the dragon egg is calling to him from within the crypt. If Jon is able to get his hands on his own dragon egg, that would be pretty cool
That dragon wouldn’t have time to grow.
Love your videos. Keep it up Chris :)
God, your videos are so good it makes waiting for winds worse 😂
I’ve never read the books (haven’t had time), I’m obsessed with the show. I really REALLY wish they would have had Howland Reed in it & included him more in the story arch. I feel like he is going to be extremely important in the story in the books, and they just completely left him out, basically except for mentioning him a few times, and the one flashback scene on the show.
Read the books. Just start with the first, take your time and don't think about how many more books you have to read. There's a world of detail that far surpasses even the best seasons of the show. You won't regret it.
Just read the books. The level of complexity is miles beyond the show.
If the books are a PHD thesis, the show is a middle school exam.
This is not hyperbole, it's a fact.
Rickon as warden/king of the North, Sansa as Lady of the Vale, and the rest doing magic stuff seems to make the most narrative sense but I guess a lot could happen in 2 novels.
Jon would take the name Stark to honor the man he believes was his father. He will have Winterfell to keep it safe in that same honor but whichever sibling lives and shows up he will give them that seat. He thinks himself as Ned's son but knows he was never thought of as an Heir. He's noble like that... Like Ned.
"A conversation b/w Howland Reed and Jon Snow"... man that gave me goosebumps! Really expecting something 'worth-the-wait' to happen in WoW. Too long a wait already!
Video was great ngl
Keep it up
I could see Rickon being Lord of Winterfell with Jon being his regent also I feel like we might have a succession war with Sansa vs Rickon yes Sansa would never want to hurt her baby brother but the Vale might want to push her claim anyway plus Littlefinger doesn't like Stannis and vise versa
All this to say winds is going to be interesting to read
Love the intro
Speak more of the crypts! they always are so mysterious with so many secrets that prod us with questions, as if taunting us!
Yes please to a video about Jon and the crypts!
Amazing video!
Yes
Make a video about Jon and the crypts. Would love to see it and make it +30 minutes ❤
Yeah, I don’t see Cat rallying the North… It probably says “bring my dead mother and wolf-headed corpse back from the dead and fuq guest right.” Or Jon. Maybe it’s Jon.
Love your videos brother
I think jon could change his mind about stark because it came from his brother. However i do think he would step aside.
Actually, Jon DOES want Winterfell. He even admits it as much to himself. He ALWAYS wanted Winterfell. And he certainly will gain a claim to it by marrying his cousin, Sansa Stark......the red-headed girl he thought "radiant" when she entered The Great Hall standing next to Joffrey
I can't help but feel Howland Reed is not a good person. He knows so much but he is MIA while all his Liege Lords house members die one by one
He knows more about what's going on than any other character in the entire series, literally too important for a POV before the climax.
Even without the broken marriage pact Robb was already going to lose
Choosing Jon Snow as heir was a sign of desperation
This is very random. Bazt apart from the content being very interesting...i want to say that I habe tremendous respect for your editing. Especially the titles behind the moving pictures. I assume you do this via masking and depeningbon the editing program this can be al LOT of work. Very cool work!
really well done video, only thought here is that rickon doesn't matter he is a wild child and his wolf being called shaggy dog literally means a pointless story he either stays where he is or dies Jon gets power thrust upon him and Bran will refuse power Sansa will want it but I think between the will and the way the north will uplift Jon she will stand aside for him
What a story, what a world GRRM has built. Hopefully he finishes TWOW soon and DoS later on.
the video is very well done, it reminds me of alt shift x
Thank you, that's very high praise
The crypts - well, any and all wights created the last time could still be inside the crypts. We would never hear them through a foot of stone...
I think the effects of Robb's will will highly depend on the order of events. For example, if the contents of the will become known before the fact that Bran and Rickon are alive becomes common knowledge, Jon may find himself thrust into the position of King of the North as we saw in the show. The parentage reveal and return of his siblings will then complicate his position. But, of course, if, say, a living Rickon reappears before word of Robb's will spreads, then it will become moot and serve mainly as motivation for Howland Reed, as you said. But I think the biggest effect is, as you pointed out, giving Jon a potential claim in the upcoming Stark succession crisis. And the Starks will resolve that succession crisis by uniting behind one common claimant rather than fighting each other, demonstrating the positive answer to the question of how to deal with a succession crisis.
They did Robb so dirty.
I always assumed Jon and Sansa would 'marry' and form a regency for Rickon. As that would unite all the strongest claims and would make Jon meeting Danny a little awkward
Also your profile picture is literally /OurGuy/.
What a chad you are
Truly I think cat/stone heart would crown Jon she’s is a vengeful ghost of unfinished business to be sure but she would honor her last sons will and testament and whenever ur bought back a part of you is not the same so perhaps cat no longer has hatred towards Jon
Howland Reed gets the will
Lord Reed: Ummm I don’t know how to tell you this but Jon is actually the true heir to the iron throne.
Lady Mormont: How long have you kept this information?
Lord Reed: 18 years
Lady Mormont: What?!!
"Howland's Moving Castle" HA! Good job, good job indeed.
Rob made the right choice. Apparently Jon Snow is still a brother he could trust far more with any power whats some ever
I hadn't even thought about wills. I had always assumed that there were complex and established rules of primogeniture. That said, if the stories say anything, it's that rules are anything but invioble.
Waiting for it
Yeah, the Catelyn thing is one of Preston’s and I think he’s trying a little to hard on that one.
Cersei did set a new precedent when she dismissed Ser Barristan and releasing him from his King's Guard vows . Visenya modeled the Kingsguard vows on the Night's Watch albeit both are different institutions with similar function of being protectors . I think this could be the loophole they might use to also set precedent of releasing the Night's watch sworn brothers from their vows .
Thing is, if Jon accepted being Robb's heir, it would make him King in the North since Robb was, and thus give him authority to command the men of the North. If he wants to unite the realms, having the tens of thousands of men of the North at his command to then move into the land owned by the Nights Watch and man the various abandoned forts would be a good start.
This also neatly pays off ned’s last conversation with jon about talking about his mother when they next meet. Though ned of course isn’t living, technically jon will be dead too
I think there is some reasoning in rob naming cat heir. Rob wanted someone who knew winterfell and he wanted to keep the kingdom together. She can do that. Cat would be hesitant to accept this which is why rob pushed Jon which he knew she would be very opposed to. She might accept to keep Jon from being his heir. Then when the war ends she could name whoever survives to succeed her. Rob probly named job though.
She’s the right heir cuz she has connections in the river lands and north
No river land lord cares about jon
love that synth intro! also is there anyway I could know where I can find that westeros map? @3:03? it's GORGEOUS, keep the videos coming!
Link in the description 👍
Currently, both Catlin and Jon are a bit dead to do much inheriting.
The Will was only ever considered because Robb knew all his brothers but Jon were dead. Meaning that had he known Theon didn’t kill them, he wouldn’t have wrote it since succession would have been clear to all. So the minute people find out that Rickon and Bran are alive the Will won’t be put in effect, the only way I see Jon being king, is one, if he never finds out his true identity, and 2 if Bran and Rickon died without kids
if in that letter he legitimizes jon, that makes him not a bastard anymore, being the oldest stark, he would be the true heir
@@DanyelAzamor-lh7yg literally no, because 1, the Northern Lords plan to bend the knee to Stannis in order to make Rickon lord and Stannis wouldn’t acknowledge anything an enemy king created, 2 a legitimized person doesn’t take precedence in any medieval world over true born living heirs. 3 the minute Rickon and Bran are known to be alive the Will is nothing and means nothing because it was only written under the understanding that those 2 had died
@@billychops1280 You r right on those first two, my mistake, Jon would be behind Rickon. But the third one im pretty sure the conditions of the legitimization was "if i die without kids". It does not matter if Bran and Rickon are a alive or not.
@@DanyelAzamor-lh7yg but the only reason he specified “die without kids” was to make sure Jon takes precedence over Sansa, not his brothers who were already dead in Robb’s mind, if bran and Rickon were alive and Robb knew, he wouldn’t worry cuz the main point of the Will was to make sure Tyrion didn’t get winterfell
@@billychops1280 you do have arguments but i just want to believe this fucking will will mean something on the story 😭😭😭 you won, im convinced
Now the Will going to Old Town, that is interesting. I won’t say I believe the theory, but I like it.
It would be great for that to happen, I really hope so, but will book 6 still be released? hahahaha lost hope years ago, but I always root for jon, best character
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yo, where did that clip of Darkstar in the intro come from? cant find an animated scene to save my life
I think will be crowned King of Winter but I don't think he will end his story there. Rickon's arc is a Shaggydog story, I highly doubt he survives Winds of Winter - he will probably end up warged into Shaggydog. His death is foreshadowed after Ned's death, when Bran finds him in the crypts.
I think his important role in WoW is as a motivator for some choice - heart in conflict - for at least one of the Stark siblings.
Wouldn't it be something if Howland goes "you know I was there when you were born!"
Jon has his crypt moment in front of lyanna that the TV show failed at
What happens if Catelyn Stark AKA Lady Stoneheart finds Ned's bones with Howland and tries to give them a "certain kiss"?
Would Ned be Ned, without a head?
Or if it's just bones, would they come to life and be like a wight?
Would Howland try and stop Stoneheart?
(This is what happens when you wait over a decade to release the next book, we speculate and shit that will never probably happen, and over think EVERYTHING!
If jeyne westerling is still pregnant because it hasn't been confirmed whether she is or isn't, I could see her being the queen or lady of winterfell by the end of the series if she is indeed pregnant. With Wyman as a steward untill her son or daughter comes of age but for the current story I definitely think Jon will contest all as heir untill he is either exiled like the show or becomes king on the Iron throne or dead
Rickon should be crowned with Jon as Regent leading the North for the battle against the others
It's not a huge difference. But, what the LSH theory gets wrong is that the will specifically names an heir. Yes, it likely legitimizes Jon. However, the crux is, it likely named Catelyn as the executor or heirmaker. She was to be held safe in Seaguard so she could name a son if Jayne had one and act as regent or name Jon if there was no other choice. She's a foil to Cersei, and Jon is a parallel to Gendry. After all, Robb had to have consider options if Jon refused or the NW refused.
Remember the foreshadowing of the first chapter. Jon knows what's supposed to happen if you abandon your vows.
On an adaptive level I would say you illustrate well how the story of Ragnar Lothbroc likely inspired Ned's core. He dies in a viper pit and his sons by two wives avenge him. Hard not to catch Bran and Ivar.
That said I expect a sort of Dance of Wolves situation in the North before it's united. With Jon/Stareyes witnessing wolves fighting sort of thing.
I think we should expect Cat to attempt to crown someone below the Neck. Even if it does name Jon heir, Catelyn, like Cersei, will want to put one of her own in Winterfell.
I think Rickon will be installed and somehow they will get Jon to rule as regent and lead the Stark army in Rickon's stead since he is so young
The chad way, by right of conquest.
Will probably end up going to Jon.
I just think it will be thrust upon him like how he became the lord commander.
Do you not think it would be poetic if Jon entered the crypt as a bastard but left as a King?
Assuming that Jon will also marry the wildling princess like Stannis first suggested (which is seemingly what she also wants) and he does become Robs successor then that would then unit the North completely.
Rickon's purpose could be to denounce his claim to the thrown and place Jon upon it as if every Stark does so then Jon being a bastard would not matter.
Robb has already done so (by naming him his heir)
Arya would so (as her connection to Jon is more than to her other siblings)
Bran would likely do so in order to fulfil his new role.
The only two which may be reluctant are Sansa and Rickon.
But if Rickon does so alongside all his other siblings then Sansa would be forced to since her claim is less than that of Rickon and if she did take the throne by Jon stepping out of her way then there will be those who would believe that Jon should have been King as Robb and Rickon named him as their preferred choice.
Plus Jon may end up taking the throne after his resurrection because it will be the fastest way to unite the North and prepare for the white walker invasion.
If Jon wasnt prepared to give way to Sansa (or his other siblings) then I dont see anyone else taking the throne as Jon would have at least two Starks (Robb and Arya) on his side, Bran being impartial and the other two being in conflict with eachother as i dont see Sansa or Rickon favouring the other to be Robbs successor over themselves or Jon.
Sam finds out Jon is the son of Rhegar then the captain comes by and sam finds out Robb Legitimized him.
I believe John would accept legitimacy by his family rather by a man he hardly knows… which would just be awkward to his family if they didn’t want it. Also I think Theons story is a foreshadowing of John’s decision. Theon learns the hard way that sometimes the person who raises you is more kin than blood. I think John’s story will end as him claiming Stark.
I think that it isnny that we still make theories about the books but we will never get any new books
Howland was such an unturned stone in the show
Supposing Robb washed the stain of bastardry away from Jon and Reed revealing his secret.
If Jon is Rhaegar's son, it gives him a claim to the Iron Throne. But this is boring.
The actual interesting alternative is if Jon is Brandon's son with Ashera Dayne.
It would give him a strong claim to Winterfell. Some northern would think he has a stronger claim than Ned's children, pitting Jon against his "siblings" in a dynastic succession crisis.
It would validate the fear Cat had for Jon this entire time.
It would give a nice dark twist to that childhood event when Jon and Rob fought for who is the heir to Winterfell and Robb called Jon a bastard.
Aegon knew he couldn’t bring Westeros together with peace. Only way for Jon to unite the realm is to be king, through force. Maybe marry Danny for her dragons.
Jon helps the North defeat the Bolton's. Robb's will is revealed but just as you suggest, as Jon knows his siblings are alive, he presses for Rickon or even Sansa's claim. They name Rickon the young King of the North, but since he is so young, they convince Jon to be the "Lord Protector" of the North...which I think Jon would accept as that serves his higher purpose. As Lord Protector, he could best serve by uniting the North to face the growing threat of the Others
people really underestimate how much everyone in Westeros hates the idea of pushing a womens claim to rule in her own. Its fucking awefull for everyone. The moment a women gets picked its a presedence and all the dudes in the north with an older sister get their shit kicked in. Cant do. But there could be a way were Rickon might be the king and Jon is his protector or its Jon but he kinda knows that as an undead dude he cant have kids and designades Rickon and his kids as his heirs.
There is historic president in real life of people becoming leader but adopting some other dude to be the designaded heir.
@@Seelenverheizerthe fact is, most of the North in this moment is set out to be ruled by women, since most of their male kin died. Alys Karstark, Lyessa Flint, Eddara Talhart, Barbrey Dustin, Meera Reed, Jonelle Cerwyn, Lyanna Mormont, Wynafred Manderly. Now would be the greatest chance any Stark woman ever had of actually inheriting Winterfell, from that point of view.
Is there any possiblity that some of remainnig stark forces are with Howland, and they will aid Their king
Rob left it to Jon, and Jeyne has his will. Jeyne is on her way to captivity, but might be freed by the Brotherhood or even the Blackfish.
yeah the dance of dragons could have been avoided quite easily by both viserys and rhaenyra
I mean Jon is going to take Winterfell as an Other. He will be a Night King figure that leads the others through the wall to attack Winterfell. Probably by then Bran and/or Melisandre will take Jons spirit out of Ghost and shadowbind it back to his body.
Dayum i thought the boltons have pieces of flayed ancient stark skin was just a theory i gotta finish the books
One thing I couldn't get it ..... Jon's hair is black or may deep brown...but any child having Targaryen as the father have silver gold hair ..
. How can we say about him as a Targaryen?
Fire and blood