Lmao I was okay with most of the video until the Jin downplays. T7 jin was fucking nuts and he's only better now. What a load of horse shit and that's coming from a jin main.
@@tabkg5802 Why are you bringing Marduk into this? He has nothing to do with this. You Jin mains will take anything you can get to try & prove a point which will actually go against what you're saying. Also I play all Mishimas, even Jin so I don't wanna hear blah blah blah TMM duh duh duh stuff. He's cringe.
@tabkg5802 Marduk had good moves lol that's why he was so annoying. Idk what you're even trying to get at with that, it doesnt make any sense. Jin has excellent moves in both games.
As a Xiaoyu main, I don’t play 50/50 or rock-paper-scissors… I am dancing and doing strange moves until my opponent is bored and suicide himself by running on my sweep or my back1+2. Xiaoyu isn’t OP, it’s all the other characters who have a suicidal tendency.😂
@@PKMJyoXiaoyu isn't OP, but Hypnotist stance is... It's literally a guaranteed 50/50 that wins no matter what. Fck that character along with Alisa as well
Buff guy is 100% a Kazuya glazer/downplayer but imo if you ever have to defend a move by saying "Oh he can change the timing" you've lost the plot. If my timing was perfect I could beat everyone in the world with jab and and duck jab. Everything in the game loses to timing.
that level of timing is pretty much unachievable though. we're talking about something reasonable, which is reading someone's SWL in anticipation of the 50/50, it really doesn't take an unattainable level of skill to realign with someone's sidewalk, especially when we're talking about a high level of play, which was always TMM's standard when talking about Jin.
@@requiemxd2982 I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I'm saying that if you can reduce a characters advantage state to "they have to get the right timing" then you've essentially neutralized it. It's no longer a 50/50 if Kazuya has to mix up his timing. Will you not be happy until he's completely unable to use wave dash at all? That's completely unreasonable.
@@teamguapogames my point wasn't about what kazuya should or shouldn't be able to do, no I wouldn't be happy if his wavu 50/50 was useless. its about the representation of how to counter it. the point is that "just SWL bro" isn't valid when there's obviously more to it than that, since the kazuya can play with timing, and my point was that it's not an unreasonable skill to have at a high level.
@@teamguapogames Dudes conveniently forget the existence of db4, df2, iWS2, iWS3, iWS1+2. They are magically swept under the rug. Kazuya has a plethora of ways to stop movement: delayed timings and wave realignment are *just two of them* for when Kazuya still wants the massive rewards of his sidewalkable moves without resorting to anti-movement moves per se. Don't pretend the anti-movement arsenal does not exist. The permanent threat of life-deleting Kazuya df2 is precisely the reason his wave 50/50 works on the first place. If Kazuya CH df2 did not exist, you would be encouraged to m4 every single plus Kazuya has or any momentum Kazuya builds. Try doing so when Kazuya puts a +4 on you and see what happens when you dare to interrupt him -then just reflect on what you did for the next round, because the round is over.- 💀
Kaz, Jin, Heihachi, Devil Jin main here, not a competitive player but I know these games since my birth, played every evolution of juggles to bound system and screw system, I developed actual brain muscle with mishimas and I can def say 1.05 Kazuya is his apex, players who loses with him and complains are completely garbage, I trusted kazuya mains for years, now all I see is plugging on a kaz mirror, even in a QUICK MATCHES! Very few kaz mains showed me respect in this game, quitting at the first lose, they can't handle shit anymore, just play the damn game!
@@requiemxd2982 he's downplaying jin super hard. He's acting like jin has to work harder than he really does. He talks about how he only has two lows in high level play, but that's just not true at all. He says that jin's heat moves are lackluster, but that's also just an insane take, especially how all of them are crazy good whiff punishes and either lead to wall pressure or a mini or full combo (and one breaks walls from literal miles). Overall, the fact that Nova can't even understand how vortex is an option select already makes him wrong. Every character in this game has bullshit, but Kazuya's bullshit is locked behind high execution and poor neutral tools. Jin's isn't.
@@barryjohnson5426 alright, well im glad you actually have reasons for what u think unlike the other guy, but let's go through each point. "He's acting like jin has to work harder than he really does" No, he's said multiple times that Jin was dumbed down to an extent in Tekken 8, and he was especially upset about the changes to CH f4 no longer requiring a high execution pickup to convert it from a raw f4. What he does say, though, is that Jin still has a high skill ceiling, its fine if you disagree with that, but i think its generally a known thing about mastering Jin, that its almost impossible because of his infinite reactive potential. "He talks about how he only has two lows in high level play, but that's just not true at all." Ok, well, do you trust Arslan's opinion? because in his latest tier list video he actually said that a problem Jin has is that his chunky low pokes (which are the ones we're talking about, db4, cd4, d2) are reactable at the highest level. No one said its easy, but he said it's feasible to react to them at a high level and offline. TMM purely playing online and never reacting to those lows isn't proof at all that they're unreactable. Again, no one said it was easy, but at the highest level, people do react to those chunky lows, and Jin is then relegated to d3 and d4, which are the 2 lows Nova was talking about. "He says that jin's heat moves are lackluster, but that's also just an insane take, especially how all of them are crazy good whiff punishes and either lead to wall pressure or a mini or full combo (and one breaks walls from literal miles). " Heat moves in this context is referring to new moves/properties on moves that you already have, exclusively available in heat. You're referring to his heat smash and strong heat engagers like ff2 that he can dash out of, which Nova has said multiple times are very strong. The topic was on heat utility, and for Jin, he's got: 1. worthless omen stance BS 2. autocorrected electrics (obviously useless for a Jin at a high level). Characters with actually good heat not only have strong heat smashes and heat engagers to dash out of, but they also have ways to use their heat bar to apply pressure with their new moves in ways that they can't out of heat (e.g Xiaoyu, Alisa, Feng). They get what all of what Jin has, on top of being a super-soldier version of their character WHILE they are in heat, right before they finish with a strong heat smash/dash. If you want to argue that Jin is still strong regardless, thats fine, and I'd agree with you, but his heat is not on the same level as the top-tiers, and its inarguable. What's actually dishonest is TMM putting jin's heat on the same level as the top tiers, who have way more than Jin in terms of heat utility. "Overall, the fact that Nova can't even understand how vortex is an option select already makes him wrong. Every character in this game has bullshit, but Kazuya's bullshit is locked behind high execution and poor neutral tools. Jin's isn't." Look, this argument was way too much about the semantics in my opinion, but if you actually listen to what Nova is saying, his point is that a high level Kazuya can reasonably circumvent SSL as a defensive option against his 50/50, and that TMM saying over and over that Kazuya is very easily countered by SSL and making out his 50/50 to be useless against this simple option is just wrong when you consider that at a high level, there's alot more to it. also, I don't really think either character has BS at all, they both require pristine fundamentals to win. pretty much 0 knowledge check/BS with those characters when you compare it to actual "bag of tricks" characters in the game.
Nova, I admire your Tekken abilities, wisdom, and knowledge of Kyokushin karate. When you finally get Tekken 8, I hope this channel may become a Tekken dojo and you offer coaching where we may study under your tutelage. 🙏
I'm a Kazuya main. This video was pretty damn valid honestly. I remember when the patch came out for 1.05 and I said that CD1+2 is insane and that 1+4 is a panic move (something Kazuya has never had before) but got told by other Kazuyas that "it's not even a big deal". Not to mention his panic button has insane properties and he can do it 2-3 times in Heat. One thing I think lots of these comments also neglect is that his Heat Dashes can also serve as a life saver with disgusting chip. His wall setups along with DB12 Heat Dash is pretty strong. His DF3,2,1 string at the wall is absurd as well. I watch Buff Guy's content sometimes but I really think that his comments have bad takes and he really is biased towards Kazuya. Like he himself said "it's not about the moves in vaccum" well Kazuya out of wavu has so many options and it's just down to execution why some people don't use those mids I believe. His point about being launched for damn near all the mids is just not true because you have Fujin Uraken, WS3, WS4 (which is great for spacing on block and that tracks bit to his weak side), B22. All of these tools he has can have timing mix as well or do wavu electrics. All you really need as Kazuya is some form of momentum to begin your own offense. This is probably the most approachable Kazuya has ever been in history of Tekken as well since he can do high damage without the use of multiple electric chains or PEWGF. His safe CH DF2 combo is 93 damage at the cost of Heat and doesn't use any electrics.
@@eltigremuyloco I legit *celebrated* 1.05 for you guys. 👻 Dedicated days working on a vid with suggestions that would solve T8 Kazuya's in the most glorious fashion. But I really appreciate what you guys received in the end. Thank you for the appreciation and recognition, for real. Put some serious effort on this one to start this conversation with quality content. 😄
Similarly I was sad seeing how they have dumbed down Jin's skill floor. Legacy Jin is one of my favorite characters. Look forward to your other T8 content and hope you get that PS5 soon. 👍@@NovaSeiken
@@eltigremuyloco The only thing I'm extracting from new Jin is his newfound package of punishers: b1,2 WS4,4 WS1,3,2,1,4,2 I believe my Jin gameplay remains nearly unchanged from Legacy stuff. You will never see me go Samsara, for example. This move is pretty much his main Tornado combo extender in my eyes and nothing more.
@@OverlordDurash Put my very heart into it and tried to amp up the entertainment factor as much as I possibly could. Very glad that you appreciated it, bro. Thanks... 😄
i think focusing so much on the coinflip is harmful for Kazuya players, particularly new ones. In theory, the 50/50 is defender favoured, and forcing the coin flip will lose you more games than you win. The more I play I find more success with a focus on timing and punishment. When my vortex succeeds, its rarely because I chose mid or low, it was because I had my opponents timing downloaded. For example, when countering Buff Guys SSL OS, you reference the Kazuya player adding delay timings to the mix. Once you start adding timing layers to vortex, is it even a coinflip anymore? Adding a delay gives the defender many more options then just low or high. Great title for engagement in the comments, lol. I agree with you that Kaz is a cheeky motherfucker, strong af, and can steal games from you super easily. I do think saying that we're coinflipping to avoid playing tekken is super disingenuous, though and is a misrepresentation of his actual playstyle
@@atollcollector Don't mind my rhetoric. I actually appreciate you guys and I appreciate Kazuya for what he is. When I said that, it was *within context* of the player I was discussing with. The thing about mixed/delayed timings is that either Kazuya's frametraps or his momentum per se makes you terrified to press. Kazuya has to offer you a *significant amount of data* for you to feel any conviction into pressing to interrupt him. I usually immediately go Jin m4 once I realize the Kaz player is trying to set me off with delayed timings/wave realignment. But you can't just go for it because getting hit by CH df2 is life-deleting. The _permanent threat of CH df2_ is what makes things work so well for him in this regard. That is the drama (and the beauty, in a sense) of fighting Kazuya. 👻
i disagree its not defense favored its even at best . a defender can launch hellsweep but kaz can launch with ff3 or heat engage with ff2 in heat or loop his hell sweep
@@requiemxd2982 whats there to bring out? usually ppl who complain about kaz love to downplay their own main. And nova has been crying about kaz since T7 while downplaying Jin. Its just tiresome. I bet you cant watch tmm's response on this without beeing butthurt lol
@@CoolDima09 nova said it how it is when it came to kaz strength in t7 (about b tier), which they almost agreed upon, the point of contention there in t7 was about the skill involved with kaz's oki, where TMM radically disagreed and basically argued that it actually took alot of skill. I watch TMM's response on this and all I felt was that he barely watched it and missed the point for most of it, i rlly dont care that much. and yeah, typically when you say that you lost braincells watching something, its expected to point out what exactly was so dumb as to make you feel that way? or its just baseless and hateful for the sake of it.
@@requiemxd2982 You are talking out of your ass. There was no "contention" in the first place. It was just nova crying about Kaz and calling everyone "bias" who disagrees with him (which is kinda hypocritical). And if you really "dont care that much" why are we even have that discussion? And yeah I did lost braincell because every second of the video made me cringe. And somehow he think his "points" have more substance if he stretches the video to 45mins which is just childish.
Lol that Buff guy is the biggest Kaz simp I've ever seen. I've seen him multiple times under tekken related videos and all he does is he comes up with unhinged shit to glaze Kaz. One time blud unironically wrote something along the lines: "Tekken 8 Jin is most easy and braindead character and he's easier than Eddy". Therefore he was dumbfounded why people play him since he's so "boring and autopilots himself" while Kaz is of course hardest and most honest character in the game and you put gazillion more effort to win when you play him.
@@Topgamer357 Jin and Kazuya have never been CLOSER in terms of gameplay, actually. 💀 They literally have *sibling moves* and *sibling techs* I already had a video in the backburner about this topic for 3 months already. Already have all the recorded material: I just couldn't finish it yet for lack of time. 👻
Kazuya loyalist here. It's so incredibly funny how Kazuya managed to amount an actual cult around him. I awknowledge that my main is bullshit and fellow Kazuya players shit on me for it XD. The new Parricide Fist and Fukitobe are absurd. After the buff i actually played DVJ until now because Kaz was so absurd. Great video as always.
A lot of Kaz players are missing the point. This entire discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Kaz being difficult and execution heavy. Once all of his difficult to use tools are honed and set into place he turns into a brutally efficient 50/50 monster. He's an extremely hard to pilot character at high lvl with a simple/cheap gameplan that's crazy effective when fully realized. His 50/50 gameplan is well earned but it doesn't make it any less cheap/dishonest just because you've had to put in a lot of work to execute it @houstonraver834
This dude used to show his rank status all the time & all of a sudden when this game came out he hides his rank now in T8. Claims he doesn't have the for almost a year yet he uploads videos on it all the time. Bro is washed up.
@@MrSamuelAdam4 he literally just doesn't have a PS5 yet and plays the game through his friends and training partners, which he actually said in this very video . He's not hiding anything😂. Not only are you wrong about your point here, but you also proved that you didn't actually watch it and are just saying hateful things in the comments since you came here from TMM's cult. you cant make this up 🤣
Dunno man, Kazuya def really strong but requieres way more skill to condition somebody, with jin you can use a third of his kit to do the same with better reward
@@Manley156 you can't simply 50/50 with kazuya, you need to put opponents in a position where you can do this. People can simply mash dick jab or some panic button. Even in low lvl play where people mash like crazy you need to put them in line first and make you respect you , even tho in low lvl play you don't really need 50/50 or any character tbh, but in high lvl play you really need to have very good Tekken fundamentals. If not try it out yourself, in raijin + you really start feeling it
@@MikeZehdnicker usually the argument was about kaz having the most braindead WAKEUP 50/50, not standing. no ones debating that you need to have excellent fundamentals to have your opponent conditioned enough for wavu to be relevant from standing. but from wakeup its just casino and theres not much argument there
I mean, this is a pretty fucking good video to launch a TH-cam career off of because your opinion is so incorrect it’s causing people to come on here and shit talk you. Repent and capitalise off this.
@@NovaSeiken Your loss, bro. Division pays dividends in this fucked up period of history so maybe infantilising things is a good idea for you. It worked to gain views in this video. P.S. Try not to trivialise absuvie behaviours like gaslighting by throwing it out as a common insult. Real victims of it deserve more respect than that.
@@WartyFingleBlaster The thing is I take lots of actual care to not provide any inaccurate information. I make sure every single one of my claims are backed with living, material proof before making them, so I am not willing to "repent" on anything because *I am not a liar.* Your suggestion is for me to forcibly capitalize on division even if I have to put an illegitimate act and play a character in order to do so. But I didn't create this channel for this sorta thing... If this channel is to thrive some day, it's because some people appreciate who I actually am and value the information I bring. I really love Tekken and put passion into my content, I am also committed to be truthful.
@@NovaSeiken I mean, the division comment was as satirical as it was truthful. I'd rather the world not bite at every controversial opinion and that people became more rational in their views, but that's beside the point. It's good you have the intention of providing accurate information. To do so, it's important to not look at the 'data' you gather in a vacuum or take it at face value. A lot of what you looked at was very surface level, it felt like you cherry picked some of the situations to prove a point you were trying to make instead of looking at everything unbiased. That's the main point of criticism I see from people in the comments, among some other not so nice people attacking you because they're pathetic (sorry about that btw). It's important to distinguish between points that are untruthful/lies and points that are poorly structured or incomplete. It's clear you weren't trying to lie or mislead people, but it's also clear that you had not fully analysed your own arguments from external viewpoints. Think about how people may respond to your points next time and test them out. If those tests end up proving/disproving your point, then adjust your hypothesis and theories before posting. It's weird to discuss the scientific method when talking about creating a TH-cam video, but it works and is how high quality, impartial, factual discussions and arguments are discovered and presented. Controversial or not, cementing your thoughts in the scientific method leaves far less room for people to find holes in your work. Best of luck in the future, I hope your method improves and I'm sure you will grow off of this video regardless! So good job.
@@WartyFingleBlaster Thank you for the reasonable and thoughtful reply. I actually mistook your intentions, so I legit apologize for being defensive. *You will be always welcome here.* 🤜🤛 I will try to work on my rhetoric, because I understand it can be sometimes off-putting.
Doing the coin flip as kazuya is legit but it don't really amount to much when thats all you do. Gotta play the movement game for the electric,outside of that,he's pretty strong. Only thing i really consider difficult is knowing how to do CD inputs and then 31 cancels.
as a kazuya main myself i enjoyed tf outta this video. funny asf n i learned things about my character i didnt know before. keep it up homie, would love to see another one of these for another character 😭🙏🏿
As a Reina main and a kazuya co main, kazuya is def a coin flip, but we also are flipping the coin with chopsticks to catch the coin xD and Honestly Reina is a casino as well, but i feel she is more reaction dependant on her stuff. (First tekken i played) Also appreciate the jin weaknesses cause hes been my kryptonite in mid low level lol
I once leaned towards being a Kaz main. Now he's horrible to fight. Before I only enjoyed mirrors cos there were no disadvantages and my mains were legit, now I hate fighting Kaz cos he's just awkward and you can't really do much to improve random guessing.... Win a match, lose a match whenever Kaz shows up.... So hard to get clean wins and shut off a Kaz player sometimes.... It's hard for them to even go wrong when they all use same flowchart with no gaps
If you practice your Jab, DF1, Sidestep Game you can start beating Kazuya with a good degree of consistency. It won't help you get better at Raw Guesses, but it will help immensely in building hesitation, preventing him from getting started, and getting damage on antsy Players. It's important to put that Jab-> Sidestep Left and Down Forward 1-> Sidestep Left on the table when you play him. Kazuya can fight back well with Flash Punches, but that's his only real fast and low-commitment answer to Small Tekken Pressure, and Flash Punches' strength is mitigated by Lateral Movement.
He really does have panic move with down back 1+2 evading highs and launch punishing easily, then with armor, that covers mids. If a Kaz player rolls the dice with enough 50/50's, you can die for sure. Best hope is to launch and oki him before he can. If by some chance he blocks your first 50/50 or couple of interactions, then it's his turn. Because of the new updates and strength of ranged moves, he gets you to panic from very far away. One thing is that hellsweeps don't damage much so if you can force most of his 50/50's to be lows, you can be sure he will have to 50/50 a lot and risk even more health than he takes from you.
Idk if you remember back with the old tmm drama I’d decided to stick with kazuya since this is my first tekken,I made it tekken god and from what I saw ppl really downplay kazuya cause he’s hard and most the loses they take is from a skill issue
@@nine8963 Agree. End of the day you do need good fundamentals on the character and especially defense. I think that is what makes Keisuke such a special Kazuya, his defense is nutty.
@@QDubb123 What i mean is Not that much of a buff like Kazuya... Maybe like making Jin's F+4 range good again and increase his chip damage little bit like the other Tekken Character.
@@doncinati7644 I actually appreciate this new ultra-elitist ZEN Cancel. Already mastered it, so it makes no sense for me regressing to the past on this one. I personally took it as a personal challenge: Namco wanted to kill the tech, so I transcended the mechanical obstacle *out of spite.*
@@QDubb123 My main issue with T8 Jin is his PARRY, because by restricting the _universalizing effectiveness_ of his Parry, you are *disrespecting Jin's identity: reactive gameplay.* T8 Jin's Parry doesn't work against unblockables, charged moves, heat dashes, RA, etc Also, they sabotaged its startup. Many mixup strings that you would parry on reaction as a *reflex option select* are now killing Jin because one of the options is killing Jin before he can activate his Parry in time. Some examples from many: - Eddy b2,3/b2,4: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Eddy b2,3 and you get hit - Asuka ff2,1/ff2,1+2: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Asuka ff2,1 and you get hit - Kazuya df1,4/df1,df2/df1,f2: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Kazuya df1,4 and you get hit They MUST revert his Parry to what it always was when it comes to EFFECTIVENESS. Now... when it comes to the _nerfed recovery on whiff,_ *I actually CELEBRATED IT* A Jin that goes for YOLO Parry MUST be severely punished. He must PAY for messing up a deductive Parry. Now, T8 Jin is -30 for whiffing a Parry, IIRC. People who apply reactive Parries are completely unaffected by this nerf, and _I personally fully endorse this nerf._
They are passionate and they put dedication and effort to their craft. Got no choice but to respect it. Kazuya players actually have to spend countless hours practicing, doing defensive drills, polishing movement and execution if they want to achieve anything. It's not like a character like Alisa that the player can randomly poke his nose against the controller and reach Tekken God Prime basically relying on the heat engager safe power crush and hopkick as their only defensive actions. Kazuya players DO work hard, so it's unfair to completely dismiss their claims.
I know the author must have been sniffing glue while recording this. Just SSL bro It's pointless For someone with knowledge, I showed complete ignorance Show me how you do it in combat 6:51 I don't know if you're trying to insult Kazuya players or all players, you really think people can't react to that In the game where tekken king may have have 44 defense ? This game is famous for making people stand and wait for what you will do. I didn't discover America there, just imagine that many have thought of that and you know why they don't do it? Because it doesn't work 😱 It can be used occasionally under the right conditions Jin players are the biggest cancer of this game Listening to you I lost the last bit of respect for this character, he probably complained about King and Bryan Jin is a much more brainless character in this game only two characters are worse alisa and victor I don't even want to know what went through your mind about bryan and steve
It's no coincidence that in Tekken 1, there was an unreleased character called 'Wild Card' who looked like Kazuya and had a Yoshimitsu moveset. Having formerly played Yoshimitsu and mained him extensively, I see A LOT of his 50/50 mindgame stuff reflected in Kazuya. I play him like Yoshimitsu with higher execution and it's gotten me to Tekken King. To me, he plays like Yoshimitsu a lot. But with less BS and more mixup / 50/50 / pressure. Both are terrible when pressured but steamroll once they have built up respect from the opponent to enforce mixups.
Genuine question. I’m new to tekken, and play Kazuya. I think he’s extremely strong. But I’m having a hard time understanding how the wave dash mixup is coin flip if while he’s doing the wave dash he can be hit out of it? At low levels I can’t even apply my wave dash mixup because they just launch me for even try to wave dash on them. They don’t get conditioned to block in the 2 matches of ranked because it’s so low (I just got garyu). when I face better players that’s when I’m allowed to do the wave dash because I conditioned them to block. So my question is- how is it a coin flip if while I’m wave dashing they can just hit me on reaction once they confirm that I’m wave dashing to re align? If they don’t hit me out of it doesn’t that mean I successfully conditioned my opponent to be weary and block, thus should be rewarded? (especially since these sequences are demanding on execution, like multiple wave dashes into instant WS2 as one example) they can also lay on the floor with a delayed wake up to stop my mixup, and that’s when it’s on me as Kazuya to confirm that and go for the steel pedal. I don’t see a coin flip, I see multi layered interaction on offense and defense, with execution requirements and strict timing. (I come from street fighter and NRS. Get in the corner with sfv Cammy and then talk to me about coin flip)
@@johnydonut5768 I will answer this in que quickest and easiest way you can possibly understand: *Kazuya df2* (Take into account the _permanent, life-deleting threat of CH df2_ and now you know what's up and understand why opponents must respect your 50/50 unless they have a death wish.)
@@RainY_T-T My current level made me convincingly beat professional-level players already. Some players I play with beat Saint (yes: the korean Ganryu/Jack beast) in the past. So... I might know at least _something_ about this game. Yes: Kazuya CH df2 is a *permanent life-deleting threat.* It is also the permanent threat of df2 that *ALLOWS Kazuya to mix you up on the first place,* you blind, hateful, retarded cultist. Because _if Kazuya did not have this _*_insurance policy_*_ to forbid you from pressing on the plus he created or his momentum, every single player would simply _*_MASH m4 every time Kazuya builds a plus or gets a turn._* For decades already, Namco GAVE you Kazuya df2 _specifically for this purpose._ USE YOUR HEAD for once and try to understand what your character IS. _Understand your kit FULLY_ before coming up with this _"bUT mUh df2 -12 oN bLoCK"_ bullshit, because *this move should actually be -14 and you're actually getting off easy* and still complaining. 💀🤡 Claudio df2 is not even homing and is -13. It used to be -14 in Tekken 7 when it had a deceiving animation. Kazuya only has to make a statement ONCE with CH df2 and the round is over. This single statement already makes the opponent terrified to press and the conditioning is already established due to the DEVASTATING NATURE of CH df2. You're getting off easy with a life-deleting i14 homing mid, devastating CH launch that _mathematically matches perfectly with EVERY plus-frame-building tool Kazuya has_ and STILL COMPLAINING it's -12. GTFO
@@NovaSeiken "sOmE pLaYeRS i pLAy aGAiNst bEat pRo pLayErs" "coNViNcINGly Beat PrOFEssIOnal-LEVeL plAYErS". lmao start by actually beating pros. Listen to the ACTUAL pros at EVO top 8 instead of making your own self-assured videos. Kazuya does not "ONLy have tO mAKE A StatemeNt oNcE WitH cH df2 aNd The rouNd Is oveR". At best, with a triple just frame (PEWGF), you will get 122 damage, IF you have insane execution (which you Jin suckers don't have) and IF everything goes right. Let me remind you that everyone has 180 HP, so while you get very high damage, it's not the end of the round. No opponent is "terrified to press" against Kazuya. In fact, pressing a lot against Kazuya hurts him quite a bit as he has no panic buttons (no, df2 is not a panic button, you Jin players have Samsara anyway).
I’m a kaz main was able to get him to Tekken king recently and I can agree he’s a coin flip character and from Tekken 7 to 8 he’s been dumbed down even further. But when facing characters like Alisa, xiaoyu, and any of the top 5 really you begin to question why I’m even playing a Mishima in Tekken 8. When you hit the jackpot its great, as well as going broke you feel like ass. It varies from the players you face. Some are afraid of the wavu and let you fly on them. Others will give you no chance. Then the beautiful switch of coin flipping too conservative play happens. The thing is I feel like so many Kazuya players are stuck in this mind set of if I can’t coin flip I lose. Can’t tell you the amount of sets I’ve won without using a single hellsweep.
Earned up a sub my guy I've been saying this about kazuya and Paul especially in 8, the downplay is ridiculous especially bringing up worldwide win/loss ratios of characters online when 90 pecent of tekken players do not play this game at a high level so of course the most popular characters like Reina will have a bad win/loss ratio cause most players suk ❤
I can buy a "win rates" argument when the stats refer to high level play, at the highest rank, the highest levels of play, Gods of Destruction-only, but I don't buy these hypocrites because when T7 Jin had _the worst win rate a Tekken character ever had,_ in ANY level of play, they still gaslit the entire Tekken community into believing a defective character who couldn't move laterally or hit grounded opponents was somehow a "broken SSS+++ character". I don't buy hipocrisy. They only talk about win rates when it's convenient in order to push a false narrative.
@@kylefields3951 I recorded the "Hold it!", the "Objection!" and also the "Take that!" (Gotta amp up the entertainment value... the people who appreciate my content deserve to have some fun. 😁)
Honestly I agree with all of your points in this video as a Kazuya main, but I wanted to thank you for making this video because it taught me a lot about Kazuya that I didn't know! Great stuff
Yes he loses to swl that is why wavu exists and timing but raw kazuya without brain behind will get stepped and clapped unlike homing hellsweeps and unavoidable 50/50 which exist in this game. I dissagree that something that requires timing and execution (shutting steppers with either timing or advanced iws 1+2/2/twin pistons) is called coin flip imo it would be coin flip when timing and stepping was not involved at all aka ff3 was fully homing same with hellsweep. Also twin pistons wiff on jin db4 from certain ranges and angles i have seen even ws44 to wiff on tip range so there is that and let's not forget character is not one move paired with steppable db4 jin has tracking d4 and d2 to catch you and d4 range with it's tracking 16f and crushing properites is quite scary
> 11 damage, minus on hit > _"quite scary"_ Pick one, bro. 🥴 👻 PS: Jin d4 fully tracks SSL/SWL. It can be often walked right, specially females. (With a significant plus, it will fully track indeed.) The thing about d4 is that Jin has to hit you *17 times with it* to win a round, whereas Dragunov d2 or Feng d2 need 11 times. In high level play, the _sheer damage on unreactable conservative low pokes_ make quite a difference. (Actually, it is one of the most importante features of a character for high level play, you have to believe me!)
Great video and also really useful. I learned a lot of new things about both Jin and Kazuya so thank you for that. Just out of curiosity though, I'd love to hear your reasoning for putting Lee in top 15 in the tier list? As you said in the video, Tekken 8 is about the heat state and having good pressure out of it. Lee's heat is arguably one of the worst in the game and in my opinion what little pressure you can do with Lee is not that good compared to characters that are lower than him. Thanks!
I just can't put Lee further below because he is _the only character that got to retain T7 fast CH standards of power intact._ His m4 is still i11 while Law became i13, stuff like 2,2,3 still intact and so on. Also, *b3,3 being a natural* kinda went _a little further beyond than what his identity should allow..._ That is why I can't put him away from the SOLID tier no matter what I try. People believe Steve is the CH powerhouse, but Lee is actually above him on this regard. Lee is the true CH Paragon. The thing is: he is definitely not Top 10. The Top 10 is far above everyone else. Trust me I am NOT a Lee hater: I am actually a Lee fanatic and hold this character to the highest regard. I also love what they did to Lee in T8, particularly the animation rework. Acid Rain, f333334, df2, ff:2, the new revamped blue spark slide, the badass different backfist animations in Silver Fang, a new shortened Silver Fang and f4:1. Just frames everywhere, blue sparks everywhere... I absolutely adore this character. The only reason I play Jin is because Jin is the Kyokushin karateka. He represents my martial art. Otherwise, Lee would certainly be my character.
@@NovaSeiken Thanks for the answer. I am not trying to downplay Lee either and I appreciate your opinion. It is true that Lee has excellent counter hits, but in my opinion someone like Bryan does what Lee does a lot better. Bryan got crazy counter hits into crazy amount of damage, while Lee like in 7 kind of struggles getting proper damage (outside of ws2,3 heat combo that deals a million dmg). Bryan's heat mode is also a hundred times better than Lee's. I don't hate Bryan either, I really have respect for people who can constantly taunt jet upper ( I can't do it at all lol). One thing Lee does a lot better than Bryan is punishment. Acid rain is one of the best 10f punishers in the game (if not the best). But still I think Lee should drop a tier based off of three things: his bad heat mode, his extreme linearity and bad movement. Lee does not get anything in heat. The auto perfect inputs are meant for new and casual players and any average Lee player should be able to do perfect inputs in his sleep. So the heat mode gives proper Lee players nothing. The best thing he has is ff3 into a combo. Lee is also one of the most linear characters in the game, very few tools can track his weak side and his homing moves are very slow. And lastly his movement is bad, I constantly get hit while sidestepping moves that other characters can step. Also his backdash is bad. Anyways thanks for the answer, loved the video and hopefully you can get the PS5 soon. 👍
@@Sharkraster Jin and Lee are suffering from the same problem: we don't get an existing Heat State. We have our silver bullet (Heat Smash/Heat Dash) and that's it. The thing about Lee's linearity (which is real indeed) is that the moves that are indeed linear are _not supposed to be stepped_ because you should often use them when people *come swinging at you* like his trademark b4 keepout. b4 is ridiculously powerful. The recovery on whiff is almost nonexistent to the point you can throw this move at a distance and probably not even a tight dash electric will launch you in time unless the opponent predicted a whiffed b4 outta nowhere and advanced preemptively. The recovery is so ridiculous that it's safe on Parry. There's also the case for 1+2. If people are SSL ducking Lee, 1+2 is a perfect CH homing mid that goes into HMS and you can cancel HMS to be 100% safe OB. The thing is: people can press fast buttons to interrupt your 1+2. That is when Lee CH game comes into play. I can't really tell which one is stronger, Lee or Bryan. I have my chips on Lee. Guess I'll have to see it for myself... A Bryan who can consistently Taunt b4 is already scary as f_ck. TJU is merely the icing on the cake: it's not really necessary at all.
Look I like buff guys content, but he tried to say Kaz is harder to play than Bryan; and I can't say I agree. Sure Bryan doesn't have to do electrics or crouch dash inputs, but you have to work so much harder to enforce Bryans game plan than Kazuyas.
@@tinyparcel6305 i agree with the other guy, Bryan is a little more streamlined this game and is rewarded much more with less of a risk in t8 compared to t7.
I think the "High winrates" debate is stupid to begin with. Gigas had one of the highest win rates in T7 (if I'm not mistaken), yet no one here will call him S-tier.
@@TheNerffreak11 I wasn't the one who brought win rates into the conversation, and these hypocrites were also nowhere to be seen when T7 Jin had the absolute worst win rate in Tekken history, unable to move laterally and unable to hit grounded opponents.
Kazuyas is considered honest because everyone knows whats coming, in most cases. He is alot like Paul, you know what to expect; that doesn't mean you can do anything to stop it however.
Noob question, do people mean something specific when they say “chunky low”? Is it referring basically to an attack that’s somewhere between a low poke and a snake edge? (Like, less risk but not a full juggle, probably knocks down/minicomboes on counterhit, etc?)
Like how the voice reader sounds like an experienced player whose been thru it all and smokes e-cigs to deal with idiocracy of all other tekken players
@@Omar12521 I happen to be a Lee fanatic. 😆 What I mean is I hold this character to the *highest regard* and _aside from b3,3 becoming a natural_ (his identity should not allow this), I love every single thing Namco did with the character in T8 to the very minute details. He is VERY strong in T8. Very solid. But he is clearly not in the Top 10 because the Top 10 is absolutely non-negotiable, being far stronger than everyone else. I believe I could contribute to the conversation, but the *tone* of the video would inevitably end up somewhat different. (Lee players are often not universally hostile to Jin like Kazuya cultists are.) 👻
@@NovaSeiken well that really fair point but my reasoning for my comment is that it went downhill like crazy ppl actually think that he is bottom 3 from arslan tierlist which is insane to me like i find ppl say that he is the honest of all characters like bro b 3 3 exists lmao but man im feeling lee mains slowly adopt kazuya mains mentality and i dont want this to happen 🤦♂
@@Omar12521 I know it was quite a slippery slope... 😅 LMAO I believe I could add something to this conversation. The problem is time. 😅 Producing this vid, for example, took almost a WEEK out of my free time because I am a damn perfectionist and obstinated to the point of not wanting to leave any single detail unmentioned. This channel has a very small following. There are people who actively organize to disenfranchise and mass-hate this channel as much as they can.
@@NovaSeiken and because of that it proves that u are giving straight up facts (well i disagree with some) but more than 95% of what u say in that video is stright up true keep it up man cant wait for a lee video if u are making one ofc kazuya mains are in shambles right now lmao
@@Omar12521 Are they? 😅 They barely joined the conversation yet, as I see it. I will wait for a prominent Kazuya player to tackle my points if I am wrong. (I wish people shared my content more, specially the ones _aimed at starting a discussion._ The followers usually end up enjoying the vid for themselves. 👻)
i'm curious on one thing : what makes you think yoshimitsu is top 4 ? i think he is a top 10 for the simple reason that he is the ultimate anti-meta character, but i don't agree that he's above the likes of shaheen who are virtually flawless characters, whereas yoshi in spite of his rule-breaking tools has a proper list of glaring issues and counterplay.
As a Shaheen Player who knows a lot about Yoshi, allow me make an argument. All of my Tekken "Career" has been against a Yoshi Main. I know a lot about the Character for someone who's never played him. Yoshimitsu has far higher peaks. One of Yoshi's biggest flaws was inconsistency combined with the lack of the ability to enforce a DF1-> Small Tekken Mindgame. There are two big things that have been a big boon to Yoshi introduced in 8. Lateral Movement across the board is better which means that Yoshi's Generic Down Forward 2 sees more usage due to its ability to land from more positions than before. That and now Yoshi has the ability to throw one big Mixup on the table thanks to Heat as a Universal Mechanic. Yoshi is allowed one "Silver Bullet" as Nova would call them per Round and can go in with a Mid that has good +Frames. Yoshi's never had something like that, so combining the ability to play Anti-Meta, make the opponent second guess their Offence, has a Low Unblockable Unreactable Sword Sweep, has Spin, has a Traditional Tekken Down Forward 2, has crazy Evasive properties with Roo Kick Full Crouch Down Forward 4 and Hopknee, the list just goes on and on. In short, Yoshi can now play you legit thanks to Heat. It's just skewed. And his wacky shenanigans are just as strong as they were before, and that's an extremely threatening combination especially in a Tournament environment where everyone is stressed and nervous. Shaheen is flawless. NO flaws. But his peaks aren't as high and you have to Outplay the opponent every game. When Shaheen wins an engagement, he usually doesn't win them by that much. You have to make use of 0, +1 or +2 constantly. Slide is great, but you have to find Positions where you won't just get Hit by a Mid for it to pop off. His only Situations where he really wins them and it's hard for you to do anything about it are Heat related, so things other characters do anyway. Shaheen can say: "Fuck it, Hopkick" with one of the best Hopkicks in the Franchise, but it's no substitute for Flash at Top Level and doesn't Evade Mids. Hopkick isn't threatening enough to make the opponent consistently second-guess how they want to engage on *THEIR* Advantage. I actually agree with both of Nova's Placements as I think Shaheen is clearly strong enough to be Top 10 and that Yoshi's peaks when played well are without doubt Top 5. Yoshi has flaws, but so does Dragunov. Completeness doesn't necessarily equate with strength. It often DOES, but what is most important in a competitive format are the amount of threats you can present to your opponent. Shaheen damn well might play Generic Tekken the best in the entire Cast, but you have to be better than your opponent full stop to win with the Basics. All Shaheen's Basics are above average in every category, but they're still the Basics. And he doesn't have Stature Kick or Hatchet Kick. If he wants a high damage, advantageous Low he has to go for the Stealth Step 4 or Slide. I'd rate Yoshi 5 and Shaheen 7. Shaheen's really amazing, but he can't just Spam you down with stuff in or out of Heat.
@@kylefields3951 i must correct you on a few things : - sword sweep is NOT unreactable, it is i26 and requires 15 frames of crouch, which means it's more than reactable. you can hopkick this on reaction when done in neutral, and as a tech trap if it isn't immediately done to catch a tech roll on a hard read, many characters have an option to beat it (bryan can WS 3, lili can jump over and launch, eddy can evade it, raven can parry it etc ...) ; - unlike dragunov, yoshi has a very long list of genuine weaknesses : lackluster fundamentals, bear movement, bad frames, bad lows, poor tracking, the single worst WS punishment, absolute lack of a safe mid heat engager from default stance, and possibly the worst character when it comes to mounting a comeback. i was at the mixup yesterday and i along with other top french players ran some ft5s with knee, and against yoshi specifically all he will do is pick feng and turtle and just check you endlessly with b4, stagger his pressure when he has momentum, and simply punish. that means that in order to beat a turtle as yoshi, you have to take insane risks that no other character has to take. of course, all of these weaknesses are warranted considering he gets to break the rules in return and also gets access to the single best wall oki situation in the game : flipover/sword sweep oki. simply put : good MU knowledge, strong defense and patience can and will shut down yoshi ; - i disagree with the comparison between shaheen hopkick and flash. whereas shaheen's hopkick is -13 on block with good range and active frames, flash is death on whiff with non-existent range. again, at the mixup we've seen kaneandtrench completely get shut down by book who showed how to bait out yoshi's defensive tools, like how he was able to punish spin with heat smash to secure the win. as for the fact that yoshi can make people scared of taking their frames, there is once again clear counterplay to this and it has always been the same ever since flash was a 6 frame mid : stagger your offense and do not systematically take your frames. the tradeoff is that if you start turtling, yoshi cannot do much to open you up, as he doesn't have a scary low or a lockdown mid, and will instead rely on stances and generally risky gameplay. there are also far more clips of top level players getting hopkicked by shaheen than flashed by yoshi ; - yoshi cannot spam you down (as you said) in heat, he simply doesn't have the frames to do that, his only plus frame moves from default stance are 3,1 which is a duckable high mid that leads into another duckable risky mixup, or running 3 which is comically linear and has a terrible hitbox. f1+2 will burn heat and heat smash is i18 which is on the slower end for heat smashes, and doesn't do appropriate damage for how slow it is (king's is i18 and his does 60 damage, and he also gets a stance mix on block). besides, shaheen actually can spam you down in heat, because he has the tools to do so. i realize that i may sound biased because i am a yoshi player, but i know this character inside and out and have played him for years, the reality of this character is far from what most people say. there is a reason why when arslan picks alisa he immediately wins a tournament but when he picks yoshi he's still at the drawing board even though it's been weeks. there is also a reason why the only people who've performed well with yoshimitsu are people who've been playing this character for at least a decade (higem, kaneandtrench, eyemusician, sin and trizzytherapper). almost everytime i see someone complain about yoshimitsu, they're not applying the proper counterplay to the character, and it often simply boils down to skill issue (not saying this is the case for you, but this is true in general). yoshi is a very strong character and might always be a strong character because he actively goes against the aggressive nature of tekken 8 and is allowed to kill people for running their offense, but i believe putting him in top 5 when there are plenty of characters in top 10 that are comparatively better is simply incorrect. i'm open to having my mind changed though.
@@enderborn9209 I'm willing to agree with pretty much everything you said but it's agreed upon by most Players that only 20 Frames and beyond is Reactable. Yoshi's Low Sword Sweep is an Unblockable, which means that you have to jump over it, NOT Block it. By the time you see it, Frames 22-24 (being generous) you can't Low Block or Parry. No Attacks in the Game Low Crush on Frame 1. They start their Crushing Properties on Frames 8 and onward. If you get Hit by Hopkicks while doing it, it's because they committed to Keepout or they made a Read. On Reaction, you get Hit by Sword Sweep, because you can't jump over it with at the maximum inhumane reaction time of 6 Frames because there's literally not enough to do so. It's Seeable, not Reactable. I worded it this way on purpose. You React to it by getting Hit by it. Kane is one of my favourite Players, and I watch his Matches with great intent because I like watching him play. He Hits people with Low Sword like 80% of the time he goes for it in Neutral (NOT Oki) and the opponent tries to Hopkick and still gets Hit because you can't do it on Reaction.
@@kylefields3951 you're not accounting for the frames of crouch needed to have it come out in the first place. it's 15 frames of crouch for FC DF1 and 11 frames of crouch for the alternate input (FC b1). besides, i talked about reaction hopkick but you can also simply backdash out of it since the range is non-existent. in general players who are aware of it and have decent experience against yoshimitsu will beat this out 99% of the time. i know you will never hit me with a run up sword sweep because i will backdash or low crush it everytime. one scenario where it's 100% unreactable is for fake punishment, where you block a low that you can't launch and do FC b1 as a punish. in that case yes i agree that it's 100% impossible to react and backdash in time.
when you call it a coinflip and then explain how there is actually delayed timing mixes rather than a 5050 then it's no longer a 5050 coinflip... you're contradicting yourself and proving the point that in most situations the mixup is not a true 5050 which makes it much weaker. Any mixup that relies on mixing delayed timings is not a 5050. Im sorry but this video is actually braindead
I agree that Kazuya is stronger and more versatile than what most people say, including TMM as he really loves to say "muh main so hard to play". However, it's absolutely disingenuous to call people out downplaying their main when you're basically downplaying yours. Jin is absolutely strong, that's not even a question. Is he hard to play? Despite all of the "dumbing down" in T8, yeah he is, at least at the highest level of play. That's not even a question either. Joka and HK Jr. even said that Jin is ridiculous (as stated in this vid: th-cam.com/video/KR-JlB-SsrE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ThuuAUqTNYuo0-0-&t=54), Raef (one of the best Jin main btw) also said Jin is super strong in this game. Is he broken though? Now, that's debatable. All in all, valid video as far as about the arguments of Kazuya being underrated, the rest are just strawman at best. Even I dare to say that Leo might as well be a contender for top 10 even though barely any Leo players ever made it to Top 16/8 in majors (except probably Ayorichie) and I'm Leo main. I recognize that he might be stronger than what people say due to him going under the radar most of the time. Just stop whining about your own character, grow some balls, and step out of your bubble man.
But Raef also said Jin isn't top 5, meanwhile everybody's claiming he's top 5 or even top 1 or as strong as Drag. Jin's major weakness are the lows (Arsalan also mentioned it), I realized that way before when my friend start reacting to llrk, d2 and db4, goodluck then making your mids effective.
Saying kaz has bad tracking when df2 exists is pure cope. It is one of the BEST homing attacks in the entire series ! . plus 5 on hit , only minus 12 , and counter hit launches with VERY small blockstun window that i even see pro players fail to punish it OFFLINE. On top of that only minus 14. This makes him extreemly SCARY to step up close.
You completely ruined your argument the moment you decided to add timing mixups to the reason kazuya is “dishonest”. That’s just pure Tekken at that point. If you’re complaining about pure Tekken, why’re you even here?
I mean hes exaggerating but generally mishimas require more execution to play than the rest of the cast save the rare case like king, steve, lee for example
@@AlfalfaAccess Many people organize to mass-hate and disenfranchise the channel, unfortunately. (Standing up to truth in the past had a price. Seems like I'll keep paying this price forever.)
@@NovaSeiken Do you also plan to play Reina? Because i would love to watch you explaning her moveset in detail. Like her weakness or maybe she's more broken, etc
@@AlfalfaAccess I might try. She has artistic value, not so different from Jin. People barely explore it because of the overwhelming nature of some buttons in her kit.
As much as i love kazuya and the mishimas i totally agree kazuya players have gotten WAY too comfortable acting like kazuya is "pure, honest tekken." Personally i think no tekken character is actually honest and they all have their own flavor of bullshit. Im perfectly fine with that being the case and still love the series, but damn people really need to let go of the ego coming from who they choose to main.
his mix-up is most definitely super strong not going to try to downplay, applying said mix-up well (wavu mix) takes some technical skills and alot of practice and reading ur opponent (mind games) same with electrics, ff3 and qc-1+2 are the biggest linear options, but he does get some cheese, d1+2, db 1,2, but my personal opinion is he is still in the higher tier for difficulty, i do however believe the goat arslan ash when he says jin is s tier in his most recent vid
@@JonerB1023 I would never trust Arslan Ash when it comes to tier lists. He said the same about T7 Jin. He also put Lee at the very bottom (way below Devil Jin LMAO), he also put Lili and Leo way below Jin: that is a *material impossibility* since both Jin and Leo are generalist characters except T8 Leo is superior to T8 Jin in every single department when it comes to Tekken *except* keepout (he gets CH f4 and she doesn't, her CH d2 doesn't work keepout that well. I play both characters and can assure T8 Leo is much, MUCH stronger than T8 Jin. Leo is actually the most slept on character in this game.) He doesn't put his money where his mouth is and he is the *quintessential definition of a tier wh_re.* He will always rely on the most broken abominations in the meta and he is always monkey-branching to the next broken thing. When Kazumi was a fundie abomination with ridiculously generous properties, he used her: the moment they balanced her the dude *immediately* jumped ship. Guys like Ulsan, on the other hand, had dignity: Ulsan sticked to his guns. If Arslan Ash ever had to play T8 Jin, he would not make even to top 64. If he ever had to play T7 Jin, he would never make it past POOLS. That is why I don't trust him. *He never put his money where his mouth is.* I personally prefer Korean Tekken than Pakistani Tekken. I mean... their _perspective on Tekken._ Knee had the best definition for Jin when he was asked on tier lists, he said these exact words: _"If Parry 100%, besto characta."_ (If a guy doesn't have room temperature IQ, he will soon realize _this proposition is humanly impossible._ 😅) TLDR: If T8 Jin was as powerful and broken as Arslan CLAIM he is, Arslan would pick him, being the quintessential tier wh*re he is.
This guy is actually a genius. When you add so much cringe at the same time, it’s no longer embarrassing but funny to watch. Pure comedy. 10/10 would watch again.
@@NovaSeikenThat’s what makes it even better. You clearly believe in what you are saying. Also please check the meaning of the word ‘liar’. You seem to misuse this word a lot.
@@StasionSpasski I use the word "liar" quite appropriately: _someone who is telling a lie._ That makes someone a liar. The question is if they are doing it out of _ignorance,_ or _malice._ (I always, invariably, assume _the former_ at first.)
Buff Guy is kinda just following the footprints that TheMainMan laid down for him. Whiny saltlords who basically made “playing a Tekken character they consider to be difficult/honest” into their whole personality (on their TH-cam channels anyway) so an attack on the notion that Kazuya is anything but rocket science in video game form is literally an attack on them personally
Kazuya players should be proud of their character. I see no prob with it. The problem, as I see it, is the _curtain of myths surrounding this character._ They didn't need to lie so much for this character to earn his due respect. (Also, their nonstop hostility/disinformation campaign towards Jin/Jin players is an interesting subject to me. 👻)
@@NovaSeikenOoh, okay, I hadn’t finished this video when I wrote that comment 😂 I didn’t realize it was more to downplay Jin than anti-downplay Kazuya. Not gonna lie, I don’t have the knowledge necessary to really carry out a debate like the one you had with the Kazuya main, but when I watch CBM’s Jin vs Jodd’s Nina at Dreamhack, I just don’t see the type of deficiencies you’re talking about. I’m not trying to draw too many conclusions from just one set but Jodd, an amazing player whose Nina is unparalleled, is still getting hit by Jin d2 offline, in situations where he could’ve theoretically reacted to it. I appreciate your insight into the entire Tekken franchise but with all respect I’m just not sure how much I trust your analysis of the Tekken 8 ecosystem when it seems like you really haven’t played this specific game all that much. Again, I mean that respectfully, I’m sure you’d still crush me, but I don’t know what to think about the “undisputed top 10” bit that leaves out Jin when I do see pros putting Jin in their top 10s or top 5s
@@blazaybla22 I had the opportunity to play with the best from my region. The experience I had is: everyone gets to enter GOD MODE the moment they enter Heat. I get to remain playing Tekken with a silver bullet to spend, which is always a mid. The defensive modus operandi doesn't change at nothing. It remains the same anti-Jin defense because there are no enhanced low threats/high guard break threats like everyone else. I like to believe I DO have the best Engager in the game, that is, Jin ff2, insanely overtuned compared to original, traditional ff2. It just happens to be the best Engager for a non-Heat state. The people who play with me claim the same thing: "nothing changes when you're in Heat. Your lows are still d3 and d4. You spend Heat Smash, it's over" You don't have to take my experience as absolute, Evangelical truth, but I can assure you I AM trustworthy and I speak with peace of mind. Jin is not my only character. I have many other characters on his level of performance, such as Devil Jin and Leo. Leo is a supersoldier version of Leo in this game. Devil Jin, on the other hand is suffering... HARD. I see T8 Jin as a very solid character and I see the Top 10 as absolutely non-negotiable, them being far, far above every other character. I am not downplaying Jin in any way because *I believe in my character* and his reactive potential is still there. I will ask you this: have I lied in any moment about T8 Jin's Heat state? I will also ask you this: have you ever realized the so-called pro players who put Jin in SSS+++ NEVER put their money where their mouth is? *Why aren't any of these hypocritical mofos using him, then?* Why is it that _only the most obstinate character specialists DARE to put this guy in competitive play?_ Arslan Ash is the quintessential tier wh*re, for example: he is always consistently monkey-branching to the next broken thing. He claims "Jin is top 5". _Why doesn't he pick him, then?_ I will tell you why: because he would not make it past pools if he ever had to play Jin competitively. You have to start asking these questions because *they matter* Have you ever seen a "top 3 character" experience any kind of _rejection_ or _hesitation?_ Wouldn't he be WIDELY picked beyond a few obstinate specialists? Have you ever considered the possibility you've been gaslit into believing in a lie? They DID lie in T7... My only claim is that there are characters in this game that are *legit BROKEN.* T8 Jin is a strong character. The Top 10 are broken. I hope you understand my reasoning. I wish you the best, man. And thanks for watching the vid.
@@blazaybla22 Also, my experience with d2 was: My training partners were consistently reacting to it *from the beginning.* So that bothered me to the point I had to see it for myself. Then, I went mirror and literally reacted to ALL of them. 100% block rate in 3 matches. Then, I recorded various training drills proving its reactability. That was about it. I'm not even saying high-level players will 100% react to it. I completely understand many people won't. But _if they react to HALF of them,_ it's already a f*cked up scenario, man... The price Jin had to pay for this damn d2 in *high-level play* makes this d2 completely not worth it at all. (The state of Jin db4 and Jin d3 is catastrophic. All in exchange for this damn d2. His entire specialized low game, which wasn't amazing from the beginning, was gutted.) Jin's lows for high level play were always d3,3 and d4. Jin lost d3,3. Now he only has d4. You have to beg for scraps with 11 damage -1 hit until the very end, while the opponent is returning 15~23 damage +1~+5 hit.
@@NovaSeikenIt’s not that I don’t trust your perspective. Of course I do (and I can tell you have a lot of insight to offer just on the strength of your legacy knowledge). It’s just that I wonder if your perspective is limited by the fact you haven’t engaged with Tekken 8 to the same extent as previous games and you may not even know where it’s limited. (“Unknown unknowns” - I certainly don’t know what I don’t know!) This has less to do with skill or gameplay or anything like that, and more to do with the nature of knowledge: as Nicholas Taleb said, “the problem with knowledge is that there are more books on birds written by ornithologists than books on birds written by birds or books on ornithologists written by birds” For example… I’m not trying to compare you to Buff Guy and MainMan but just making a more general point - in their most recent tier lists they put Nina as Top 1. Now I’m a Nina main, lower level obviously, and I’m not at all out to downplay her, when Jodd says she’s the best in the game I listen, but I also just know Kazuya is one of her better matchups so I don’t really trust BuffGuy and MainMan’s placement of her on their tier lists in large part because I don’t believe they have enough of an understanding of 1) the entire roster and 2) how every character plays against every other other at the highest levels to actually make that claim. The reasons they give for Nina being top 1 don’t track with what I see making her strong in tournaments - it’s more just them saying what (I know) she does that works well against Kazuya (but for example less well against Feng, Alisa and other characters that have better range on their attacks, as her midrange neutral is objectively an issue for her in determining how well she’ll do in a matchup) So again, it’s not a direct comparison of you with them or anything, and I know you’ve played against great players and I’m sure done well, but to me that doesn’t equal the depth of experience you get from actually playing with this game for so many hours and witnessing all the roster interactions playing out over and over again, in a million different ways, in the same way that Tekken 8 pro players do. You can of course dismiss my opinion but I think blanket claiming “Heat = God Mode” is a limited perspective. My character gets a lot out of Heat, Alisa gets a lot out of Heat, but there are other top 10 characters that don’t get nearly as much out of it. I don’t know what the story is with you and T8 but I do hope you someday get it and dive into it and maybe revisit certain opinions depending on whether you still find them to be true :) Great videos and editing and everything btw!
@@NovaSeiken Apparently life doesn't go on at least not for you. You're still getting your panties in a twist over this. It's a damn video game bro. Get a life. You complain more then playing the game. It's sad & old.
Yes he is. I liked him way more in T7 but lets be honest. Every char is braindead now. Its T8. Also dont forget thiv video creator plays jin 😂 Good that im taking a break and playing the current better fighting game SF6
I see that Jin's d2 isn't homing but here's the problem, you have to react instantly after the move is inputted, there's no way you can reaction and sidestep in time, it must be read. Overall W Video.
been a while and I've already quit the game (not coming back) but thanks for actually exposing hyper incompetent frauds, someone is doing the job for me at least
I wouldn't go as far as claiming such things like "fraud". Kazuya players are often passionate and really dedicate themselves to their craft. They do work hard. But I'm glad you appreciated the vid, bro. Put my heart into this one to start a conversation with quality content. 😄
Why do you think lee is top 15 ? he has shit tourney ressults (literally none) and arslan put him bottom 3. You beat him with traditional tekken option selects . Sidestep electric to beat 1+2 , sidestep duck to beat most other options etc
@@praisemidir It's not that simple. You're mainly talking about his offense... (How can SS electric beat Lee 1+2? That I did not understand. A proper SS to create enough space to _actually evade his other options through SSL duck_ will consume many frames. Lee 1+2 will kill you on the frame mathematics) - He is the only character in T8 that got to retain the fast CH standards of power from T7. 2,2,3 CH confirm intact, m4 remained i11 while Law became i13 and so on. Dude has a *T7 CH game inside T8.* His identity also shouldn't allow natural b3,3 but he got it anyway. His Acid Rain as the best fast punisher in the game is also something else to be taken into account. For cons, just like Jin, he has a non-Heat state. At the very least he can threaten with ff3 mid launcher OR Smash hellsweep as a low. Two complementary silver bullets, mid or low. Jin has QUITE a silver bullet, insane whiff punisher, but it is always a mid so the opponent never whiffs, backdashes all day and just lets your Heat bar run out until you have no other choice left than to Heat Smash/Heat Dash on his stand guard. Don't get me wrong: I am not a Lee hater. I am actually a Lee fanatic and I hold this character to the highest regard.
@@NovaSeiken Sidestep electric does beat lee 1+2. Knee uses it at high level to option select df1 , jabs , db3 , and still beat 1+2 and mostly all his other slower options. (though this is obviously infintely easier with kaz due to his consistently faster electric) I agree with you that his CHs are good. But lee players have been getting clapped everywhere and he does not work at high lvl if u just turtle him . also b33 is plus 4 but lee df1 does not track in even plus 4 so he has to mix it up with df4 for tracking which is kind off stiff. (Also like arslan said db3+4 is REACTABLE) If it was not i would agree he would be higher tier. But he does not have a safe source of plus +4 unfourtantely.) Btw i do appreciate your love for jin even though i do not play him as much as lee. Because since t7 he was the only "mishima" i played in depth as i found his gameplan to be quite intelligent and defensive with a lot of counterplay possible by the opponent.
@@NovaSeiken Also i would like to mention even though lee is "bottom 3" that does not mean he does not handle some matchups well. I think he handles jin pretty well due to launching d2 (makes the suppousedly safe snake edge that does not home like tool used to CH only no longer safish and basically death for jin), And in general him being fast up close while jin is kind of slow. plus lee's range issues basically don't exist when fighting jin because jin has a disabled backdash like lee does (maybe even worse tbh due to his body) Actually i think it is Imo he also handles bryan well. But when you put him against other character or even other mishimas like kaz ? He kinda melts
@@praisemidir Lee db3+4 is *indeed* reactable, I agree. So is Jin db4, LLRK and d2, but people often say I'm a LIAR "because TMM said they are not reactable". 💀
@@praisemidir Isn't he supposed to dismantle Kaz because of Lee ff4? This move is killer on characters too much reliant on electrics like Kazuya. It outspeeds ff3, it completely ignores the electric.
counter argument, Lee has the worst heat in the game, and is even more of a silver bullet than Jin is when it comes to heat. The only thing you really get out of heat from lee is WS 2, 3 combo, and combo off of ff3. That is mainly it. no frames, only chip and execution you should already have. I think Lee has it more rough than Jin, but I feel for Jin, and didn't know the character had so many issues
@@robby6382 I agree: Lee also has a non-Heat state, also relying on a single silver bullet. As an upside, the Burst per se has a quite great utility to him, making WS2,3 a full launcher. If Lee reaches the wall with this combo, it leads to massive damage because of the newfound HMS uf4 hard spike. Jin has an utility to Burst for combo obtimization involving multiple microdashes and the elite tech: 3,1~ZEN Cancel Heat Burst. Don't get me wrong: I am a Lee fanatic. I adore this character and I hold this guy to the highest regard.
I understand that bringing that up in the video would have been tangential and wouldn't have made your point as clear as you generally main Jin. I'm curious on your general thoughts on Arslans tier list too
Eae Nova irmão tudo joia? Como está a correr os fundos para a ps5? Ansioso para mais content teu seja Jin ou outra personagem Em relação ao vídeo eu sou Kazuya main e acredito que ele está bem forte nesse Tekken embora fosse muito inconsistente até ao último patch pelo menos Ele sempre foi high risk high reward não é segredo nenhum mas o jogador n pode depender apenas do 50/50 principalmente em high level O poking é decent e concordo que db4 seja great (Keisuke é um apreciador nato) O erro do buff guy foi fazer do debate jin vs kazuya pois não se tratava disso em primeira instância Concluindo esse Tekken n há realmente personagens honestas devido ao heat e a natureza agressiva do jogo portanto estes debates nunca irão chegar a um consenso na comunidade Um salve e tudo de bom para ti irmão!
@@ShadyNeto Obrigado pelo apreço, man. Eu tentei fugir do debate Jin vs Kazuya o quanto pude, mas ele disse mentiras sobre o Jin. Nunca falei nenhuma mentira sobre o Kazuya: eu aprecio o Kazuya pelo que ele é e no passado defendi o Kazuya quando ele tava com problemas de consistência. Gastei dias de tempo livre pra fazer um vid contribuindo sobre a discussão do T8 Kazuya pre-patch 1.05, com sugestões que tornariam ele ainda mais consistente do que acabaram oferecndo pros Kazuya players no fim. Valeu pelo suporte, man. 🤜🤛
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Downplays T7 Jin & now thinks Jin is balanced now in T8. I can't with this guy. Brain rot to the core. lmao
Lmao I was okay with most of the video until the Jin downplays. T7 jin was fucking nuts and he's only better now. What a load of horse shit and that's coming from a jin main.
@@mann0311>"fucking nuts"
>moves worse than Marduk, doesn't have unrecatable mix, requires hardest execution in the game
Get out of tmm's groin
Kaz cucks not being regarded challenge (impossible)
@@tabkg5802 Why are you bringing Marduk into this? He has nothing to do with this. You Jin mains will take anything you can get to try & prove a point which will actually go against what you're saying. Also I play all Mishimas, even Jin so I don't wanna hear blah blah blah TMM duh duh duh stuff. He's cringe.
@tabkg5802 Marduk had good moves lol that's why he was so annoying. Idk what you're even trying to get at with that, it doesnt make any sense. Jin has excellent moves in both games.
I main Xiaoyu so I'm not really familiar with this honesty people speak of, but I'm pretty good at rock paper scissors!
As a Xiaoyu main, I don’t play 50/50 or rock-paper-scissors… I am dancing and doing strange moves until my opponent is bored and suicide himself by running on my sweep or my back1+2. Xiaoyu isn’t OP, it’s all the other characters who have a suicidal tendency.😂
@@PKMJyoXiaoyu isn't OP, but Hypnotist stance is... It's literally a guaranteed 50/50 that wins no matter what. Fck that character along with Alisa as well
Buff guy is 100% a Kazuya glazer/downplayer but imo if you ever have to defend a move by saying "Oh he can change the timing" you've lost the plot. If my timing was perfect I could beat everyone in the world with jab and and duck jab. Everything in the game loses to timing.
that level of timing is pretty much unachievable though. we're talking about something reasonable, which is reading someone's SWL in anticipation of the 50/50, it really doesn't take an unattainable level of skill to realign with someone's sidewalk, especially when we're talking about a high level of play, which was always TMM's standard when talking about Jin.
@@requiemxd2982 I don't understand what point you're trying to make. I'm saying that if you can reduce a characters advantage state to "they have to get the right timing" then you've essentially neutralized it. It's no longer a 50/50 if Kazuya has to mix up his timing. Will you not be happy until he's completely unable to use wave dash at all? That's completely unreasonable.
@@teamguapogames my point wasn't about what kazuya should or shouldn't be able to do, no I wouldn't be happy if his wavu 50/50 was useless. its about the representation of how to counter it. the point is that "just SWL bro" isn't valid when there's obviously more to it than that, since the kazuya can play with timing, and my point was that it's not an unreasonable skill to have at a high level.
@@teamguapogames changing timing in this instance refers to 2 frame delay
@@teamguapogames Dudes conveniently forget the existence of db4, df2, iWS2, iWS3, iWS1+2.
They are magically swept under the rug.
Kazuya has a plethora of ways to stop movement: delayed timings and wave realignment are *just two of them* for when Kazuya still wants the massive rewards of his sidewalkable moves without resorting to anti-movement moves per se.
Don't pretend the anti-movement arsenal does not exist.
The permanent threat of life-deleting Kazuya df2 is precisely the reason his wave 50/50 works on the first place.
If Kazuya CH df2 did not exist, you would be encouraged to m4 every single plus Kazuya has or any momentum Kazuya builds.
Try doing so when Kazuya puts a +4 on you and see what happens when you dare to interrupt him
-then just reflect on what you did for the next round, because the round is over.- 💀
You've gotta do an entire "Stop the Downplay" series with the entire tekken 8 roster.
tbf if every character is a broken pos who's the actual pos?
@@xAxCx Hworang
@@xAxCxThe friends we made along the way
never gonna do one for jin
@@semi__colonActually doing it for 2 weeks already.
"Tekken god omega is not T8 lmao"
The worst take in tekken history
Wasn't really expecting that response. 😕
Kaz, Jin, Heihachi, Devil Jin main here, not a competitive player but I know these games since my birth, played every evolution of juggles to bound system and screw system, I developed actual brain muscle with mishimas and I can def say 1.05 Kazuya is his apex, players who loses with him and complains are completely garbage, I trusted kazuya mains for years, now all I see is plugging on a kaz mirror, even in a QUICK MATCHES! Very few kaz mains showed me respect in this game, quitting at the first lose, they can't handle shit anymore, just play the damn game!
Kaz still is honest tho
Characters like Eddy aren’t
Lili
Lei
Not really about the character they are playing but who they are I have ran into a lot of pluggers ranging between all characters
You hypocrite, literally downplaying Jin who is an easy S tier character. The delusional aspect of yours is crazy.
"While inhaling inhuman doses of copium" 🤣
@@TheTyroofToriyama ⚗💨
@@NovaSeiken Must be Pineapple express!
i like how ur video just proves the other dude right
how so, just curious?
@@requiemxd2982 he's downplaying jin super hard. He's acting like jin has to work harder than he really does. He talks about how he only has two lows in high level play, but that's just not true at all. He says that jin's heat moves are lackluster, but that's also just an insane take, especially how all of them are crazy good whiff punishes and either lead to wall pressure or a mini or full combo (and one breaks walls from literal miles). Overall, the fact that Nova can't even understand how vortex is an option select already makes him wrong. Every character in this game has bullshit, but Kazuya's bullshit is locked behind high execution and poor neutral tools. Jin's isn't.
@@barryjohnson5426 alright, well im glad you actually have reasons for what u think unlike the other guy, but let's go through each point.
"He's acting like jin has to work harder than he really does" No, he's said multiple times that Jin was dumbed down to an extent in Tekken 8, and he was especially upset about the changes to CH f4 no longer requiring a high execution pickup to convert it from a raw f4. What he does say, though, is that Jin still has a high skill ceiling, its fine if you disagree with that, but i think its generally a known thing about mastering Jin, that its almost impossible because of his infinite reactive potential.
"He talks about how he only has two lows in high level play, but that's just not true at all." Ok, well, do you trust Arslan's opinion? because in his latest tier list video he actually said that a problem Jin has is that his chunky low pokes (which are the ones we're talking about, db4, cd4, d2) are reactable at the highest level. No one said its easy, but he said it's feasible to react to them at a high level and offline. TMM purely playing online and never reacting to those lows isn't proof at all that they're unreactable. Again, no one said it was easy, but at the highest level, people do react to those chunky lows, and Jin is then relegated to d3 and d4, which are the 2 lows Nova was talking about.
"He says that jin's heat moves are lackluster, but that's also just an insane take, especially how all of them are crazy good whiff punishes and either lead to wall pressure or a mini or full combo (and one breaks walls from literal miles). " Heat moves in this context is referring to new moves/properties on moves that you already have, exclusively available in heat. You're referring to his heat smash and strong heat engagers like ff2 that he can dash out of, which Nova has said multiple times are very strong. The topic was on heat utility, and for Jin, he's got: 1. worthless omen stance BS 2. autocorrected electrics (obviously useless for a Jin at a high level). Characters with actually good heat not only have strong heat smashes and heat engagers to dash out of, but they also have ways to use their heat bar to apply pressure with their new moves in ways that they can't out of heat (e.g Xiaoyu, Alisa, Feng). They get what all of what Jin has, on top of being a super-soldier version of their character WHILE they are in heat, right before they finish with a strong heat smash/dash. If you want to argue that Jin is still strong regardless, thats fine, and I'd agree with you, but his heat is not on the same level as the top-tiers, and its inarguable. What's actually dishonest is TMM putting jin's heat on the same level as the top tiers, who have way more than Jin in terms of heat utility.
"Overall, the fact that Nova can't even understand how vortex is an option select already makes him wrong. Every character in this game has bullshit, but Kazuya's bullshit is locked behind high execution and poor neutral tools. Jin's isn't." Look, this argument was way too much about the semantics in my opinion, but if you actually listen to what Nova is saying, his point is that a high level Kazuya can reasonably circumvent SSL as a defensive option against his 50/50, and that TMM saying over and over that Kazuya is very easily countered by SSL and making out his 50/50 to be useless against this simple option is just wrong when you consider that at a high level, there's alot more to it. also, I don't really think either character has BS at all, they both require pristine fundamentals to win. pretty much 0 knowledge check/BS with those characters when you compare it to actual "bag of tricks" characters in the game.
@@barryjohnson5426Kaz still basic and strong tho.
yapping stops at 45:57
Nova, I admire your Tekken abilities, wisdom, and knowledge of Kyokushin karate. When you finally get Tekken 8, I hope this channel may become a Tekken dojo and you offer coaching where we may study under your tutelage. 🙏
I'm a Kazuya main. This video was pretty damn valid honestly. I remember when the patch came out for 1.05 and I said that CD1+2 is insane and that 1+4 is a panic move (something Kazuya has never had before) but got told by other Kazuyas that "it's not even a big deal". Not to mention his panic button has insane properties and he can do it 2-3 times in Heat. One thing I think lots of these comments also neglect is that his Heat Dashes can also serve as a life saver with disgusting chip. His wall setups along with DB12 Heat Dash is pretty strong. His DF3,2,1 string at the wall is absurd as well. I watch Buff Guy's content sometimes but I really think that his comments have bad takes and he really is biased towards Kazuya. Like he himself said "it's not about the moves in vaccum" well Kazuya out of wavu has so many options and it's just down to execution why some people don't use those mids I believe. His point about being launched for damn near all the mids is just not true because you have Fujin Uraken, WS3, WS4 (which is great for spacing on block and that tracks bit to his weak side), B22. All of these tools he has can have timing mix as well or do wavu electrics. All you really need as Kazuya is some form of momentum to begin your own offense. This is probably the most approachable Kazuya has ever been in history of Tekken as well since he can do high damage without the use of multiple electric chains or PEWGF. His safe CH DF2 combo is 93 damage at the cost of Heat and doesn't use any electrics.
@@eltigremuyloco I legit *celebrated* 1.05 for you guys. 👻
Dedicated days working on a vid with suggestions that would solve T8 Kazuya's in the most glorious fashion.
But I really appreciate what you guys received in the end.
Thank you for the appreciation and recognition, for real.
Put some serious effort on this one to start this conversation with quality content. 😄
Similarly I was sad seeing how they have dumbed down Jin's skill floor. Legacy Jin is one of my favorite characters. Look forward to your other T8 content and hope you get that PS5 soon. 👍@@NovaSeiken
@@eltigremuyloco The only thing I'm extracting from new Jin is his newfound package of punishers: b1,2 WS4,4 WS1,3,2,1,4,2
I believe my Jin gameplay remains nearly unchanged from Legacy stuff.
You will never see me go Samsara, for example. This move is pretty much his main Tornado combo extender in my eyes and nothing more.
This guy's the 🐐😭😭😭 He really recorded "Take That!!" "Objection!!" and "Hold It!!"
Nova put his heart and soul into those recordings too, I'm dead! 😭
Hop off the alt
🗿
casino mishima
This shit was actually pretty good and kinda funny, Nova really pushin to be my #1 small-time tekken content creator at this rate.
@@OverlordDurash Put my very heart into it and tried to amp up the entertainment factor as much as I possibly could.
Very glad that you appreciated it, bro. Thanks... 😄
@@OverlordDurash The best way one can help me is by sharing my content with other Tekken friends. 👻
i assume you also like the taste of dirt and mud
I love it! 🤣😂😭Get these Kazuya mains a reality check!
Lee players are also downplaying like crazy
lee top 4 character
i think focusing so much on the coinflip is harmful for Kazuya players, particularly new ones. In theory, the 50/50 is defender favoured, and forcing the coin flip will lose you more games than you win. The more I play I find more success with a focus on timing and punishment. When my vortex succeeds, its rarely because I chose mid or low, it was because I had my opponents timing downloaded.
For example, when countering Buff Guys SSL OS, you reference the Kazuya player adding delay timings to the mix. Once you start adding timing layers to vortex, is it even a coinflip anymore? Adding a delay gives the defender many more options then just low or high.
Great title for engagement in the comments, lol. I agree with you that Kaz is a cheeky motherfucker, strong af, and can steal games from you super easily. I do think saying that we're coinflipping to avoid playing tekken is super disingenuous, though and is a misrepresentation of his actual playstyle
@@atollcollector Don't mind my rhetoric. I actually appreciate you guys and I appreciate Kazuya for what he is.
When I said that, it was *within context* of the player I was discussing with.
The thing about mixed/delayed timings is that either Kazuya's frametraps or his momentum per se makes you terrified to press.
Kazuya has to offer you a *significant amount of data* for you to feel any conviction into pressing to interrupt him.
I usually immediately go Jin m4 once I realize the Kaz player is trying to set me off with delayed timings/wave realignment.
But you can't just go for it because getting hit by CH df2 is life-deleting.
The _permanent threat of CH df2_ is what makes things work so well for him in this regard.
That is the drama (and the beauty, in a sense) of fighting Kazuya. 👻
i disagree its not defense favored its even at best . a defender can launch hellsweep but kaz can launch with ff3 or heat engage with ff2 in heat or loop his hell sweep
@@NovaSeiken True u have to download him before u press or u eat a df2 more than half life combo
Well said dude
Love the Ace Attorney sound effects! lmao
Hey thanks for the video, us Jin mains appreciate a lot
The jin glazing is real
About the changing main claim:
20:52 Not Jodd but Arslan used Alisa vs Jodd.
20:58 Actually happened at Evo top 8 - Uslan vs Nobi
I thinks its coz Jodd does play nina and arslan didnt want a mirror
I lost braincells watching this and died of cringe. And I'm not even a Kazuya main.
so u bringing any arguments or is that it?
@@requiemxd2982 Nah that's all they got
@@requiemxd2982 whats there to bring out? usually ppl who complain about kaz love to downplay their own main. And nova has been crying about kaz since T7 while downplaying Jin. Its just tiresome. I bet you cant watch tmm's response on this without beeing butthurt lol
@@CoolDima09 nova said it how it is when it came to kaz strength in t7 (about b tier), which they almost agreed upon, the point of contention there in t7 was about the skill involved with kaz's oki, where TMM radically disagreed and basically argued that it actually took alot of skill. I watch TMM's response on this and all I felt was that he barely watched it and missed the point for most of it, i rlly dont care that much. and yeah, typically when you say that you lost braincells watching something, its expected to point out what exactly was so dumb as to make you feel that way? or its just baseless and hateful for the sake of it.
@@requiemxd2982 You are talking out of your ass. There was no "contention" in the first place. It was just nova crying about Kaz and calling everyone "bias" who disagrees with him (which is kinda hypocritical). And if you really "dont care that much" why are we even have that discussion? And yeah I did lost braincell because every second of the video made me cringe. And somehow he think his "points" have more substance if he stretches the video to 45mins which is just childish.
Lol that Buff guy is the biggest Kaz simp I've ever seen. I've seen him multiple times under tekken related videos and all he does is he comes up with unhinged shit to glaze Kaz. One time blud unironically wrote something along the lines: "Tekken 8 Jin is most easy and braindead character and he's easier than Eddy". Therefore he was dumbfounded why people play him since he's so "boring and autopilots himself" while Kaz is of course hardest and most honest character in the game and you put gazillion more effort to win when you play him.
They are similar characters so it logically doesn't make sense.
@@Topgamer357 Jin and Kazuya have never been CLOSER in terms of gameplay, actually. 💀
They literally have *sibling moves* and *sibling techs*
I already had a video in the backburner about this topic for 3 months already. Already have all the recorded material: I just couldn't finish it yet for lack of time. 👻
Do you really think Jin isn't easier then kazuya
I actually started playing jin and yes jin is not braindead
@@JobeLovoJin is only easier because he’s better.
24:00 Extreme Copium Buddy
Kazuya loyalist here. It's so incredibly funny how Kazuya managed to amount an actual cult around him. I awknowledge that my main is bullshit and fellow Kazuya players shit on me for it XD. The new Parricide Fist and Fukitobe are absurd.
After the buff i actually played DVJ until now because Kaz was so absurd. Great video as always.
You are a real bro. 🤜🤛
Kaz is still honest
@@DEANDRE_DTS Honestly dishonest.
U still have to have a good consistency wave dash already doing more work than other players with that alone wtf u mean @@NovaSeiken
A lot of Kaz players are missing the point. This entire discussion has absolutely nothing to do with Kaz being difficult and execution heavy. Once all of his difficult to use tools are honed and set into place he turns into a brutally efficient 50/50 monster. He's an extremely hard to pilot character at high lvl with a simple/cheap gameplan that's crazy effective when fully realized. His 50/50 gameplan is well earned but it doesn't make it any less cheap/dishonest just because you've had to put in a lot of work to execute it @houstonraver834
this is the most red rank video i've ever seen holy fuck
This dude used to show his rank status all the time & all of a sudden when this game came out he hides his rank now in T8. Claims he doesn't have the for almost a year yet he uploads videos on it all the time. Bro is washed up.
@@MrSamuelAdam4 is ur name samuel or adam
@@hehexd1239 Why do you want to know? lol
@@MrSamuelAdam4 he literally just doesn't have a PS5 yet and plays the game through his friends and training partners, which he actually said in this very video . He's not hiding anything😂. Not only are you wrong about your point here, but you also proved that you didn't actually watch it and are just saying hateful things in the comments since you came here from TMM's cult. you cant make this up 🤣
@@requiemxd2982 I have heard him say that many times since T8 came out. I simply don't believe him. It's simple as that. Also screw TMM. He's cringe.
Dunno man, Kazuya def really strong but requieres way more skill to condition somebody, with jin you can use a third of his kit to do the same with better reward
Quit using condition in the context of a gambling 50/50
@@Manley156 you can't simply 50/50 with kazuya, you need to put opponents in a position where you can do this. People can simply mash dick jab or some panic button. Even in low lvl play where people mash like crazy you need to put them in line first and make you respect you , even tho in low lvl play you don't really need 50/50 or any character tbh, but in high lvl play you really need to have very good Tekken fundamentals. If not try it out yourself, in raijin + you really start feeling it
@@MikeZehdnicker usually the argument was about kaz having the most braindead WAKEUP 50/50, not standing. no ones debating that you need to have excellent fundamentals to have your opponent conditioned enough for wavu to be relevant from standing. but from wakeup its just casino and theres not much argument there
I mean, this is a pretty fucking good video to launch a TH-cam career off of because your opinion is so incorrect it’s causing people to come on here and shit talk you. Repent and capitalise off this.
No, I don't think I will. 🤔
@@NovaSeiken Your loss, bro. Division pays dividends in this fucked up period of history so maybe infantilising things is a good idea for you. It worked to gain views in this video.
P.S. Try not to trivialise absuvie behaviours like gaslighting by throwing it out as a common insult. Real victims of it deserve more respect than that.
@@WartyFingleBlaster The thing is I take lots of actual care to not provide any inaccurate information.
I make sure every single one of my claims are backed with living, material proof before making them, so I am not willing to "repent" on anything because *I am not a liar.*
Your suggestion is for me to forcibly capitalize on division even if I have to put an illegitimate act and play a character in order to do so.
But I didn't create this channel for this sorta thing...
If this channel is to thrive some day, it's because some people appreciate who I actually am and value the information I bring.
I really love Tekken and put passion into my content, I am also committed to be truthful.
@@NovaSeiken I mean, the division comment was as satirical as it was truthful. I'd rather the world not bite at every controversial opinion and that people became more rational in their views, but that's beside the point. It's good you have the intention of providing accurate information. To do so, it's important to not look at the 'data' you gather in a vacuum or take it at face value.
A lot of what you looked at was very surface level, it felt like you cherry picked some of the situations to prove a point you were trying to make instead of looking at everything unbiased.
That's the main point of criticism I see from people in the comments, among some other not so nice people attacking you because they're pathetic (sorry about that btw).
It's important to distinguish between points that are untruthful/lies and points that are poorly structured or incomplete. It's clear you weren't trying to lie or mislead people, but it's also clear that you had not fully analysed your own arguments from external viewpoints.
Think about how people may respond to your points next time and test them out. If those tests end up proving/disproving your point, then adjust your hypothesis and theories before posting.
It's weird to discuss the scientific method when talking about creating a TH-cam video, but it works and is how high quality, impartial, factual discussions and arguments are discovered and presented. Controversial or not, cementing your thoughts in the scientific method leaves far less room for people to find holes in your work.
Best of luck in the future, I hope your method improves and I'm sure you will grow off of this video regardless! So good job.
@@WartyFingleBlaster Thank you for the reasonable and thoughtful reply. I actually mistook your intentions, so I legit apologize for being defensive.
*You will be always welcome here.* 🤜🤛
I will try to work on my rhetoric, because I understand it can be sometimes off-putting.
40:30 good points and all that, but damn.. cant get enough of that clip
Doing the coin flip as kazuya is legit but it don't really amount to much when thats all you do. Gotta play the movement game for the electric,outside of that,he's pretty strong. Only thing i really consider difficult is knowing how to do CD inputs and then 31 cancels.
as a kazuya main myself i enjoyed tf outta this video. funny asf n i learned things about my character i didnt know before. keep it up homie, would love to see another one of these for another character 😭🙏🏿
As a Reina main and a kazuya co main, kazuya is def a coin flip, but we also are flipping the coin with chopsticks to catch the coin xD and Honestly Reina is a casino as well, but i feel she is more reaction dependant on her stuff. (First tekken i played) Also appreciate the jin weaknesses cause hes been my kryptonite in mid low level lol
As a Kazuya main, this video puts a smile on my face! 😊
I once leaned towards being a Kaz main. Now he's horrible to fight. Before I only enjoyed mirrors cos there were no disadvantages and my mains were legit, now I hate fighting Kaz cos he's just awkward and you can't really do much to improve random guessing.... Win a match, lose a match whenever Kaz shows up.... So hard to get clean wins and shut off a Kaz player sometimes.... It's hard for them to even go wrong when they all use same flowchart with no gaps
If you practice your Jab, DF1, Sidestep Game you can start beating Kazuya with a good degree of consistency. It won't help you get better at Raw Guesses, but it will help immensely in building hesitation, preventing him from getting started, and getting damage on antsy Players. It's important to put that Jab-> Sidestep Left and Down Forward 1-> Sidestep Left on the table when you play him. Kazuya can fight back well with Flash Punches, but that's his only real fast and low-commitment answer to Small Tekken Pressure, and Flash Punches' strength is mitigated by Lateral Movement.
Do u like playing against Alisa larz and Jin more
He really does have panic move with down back 1+2 evading highs and launch punishing easily, then with armor, that covers mids.
If a Kaz player rolls the dice with enough 50/50's, you can die for sure. Best hope is to launch and oki him before he can. If by some chance he blocks your first 50/50 or couple of interactions, then it's his turn.
Because of the new updates and strength of ranged moves, he gets you to panic from very far away.
One thing is that hellsweeps don't damage much so if you can force most of his 50/50's to be lows, you can be sure he will have to 50/50 a lot and risk even more health than he takes from you.
Idk if you remember back with the old tmm drama I’d decided to stick with kazuya since this is my first tekken,I made it tekken god and from what I saw ppl really downplay kazuya cause he’s hard and most the loses they take is from a skill issue
Kazuya is Fosho a casino but I think it’s hard to achieve that,you can’t JUST casino with the character to be a top player or a good player in fact
@@nine8963 Agree. End of the day you do need good fundamentals on the character and especially defense. I think that is what makes Keisuke such a special Kazuya, his defense is nutty.
Meu novo vídeo favorito do TH-cam
@@geovaniraffaelli4508 Poxa vida... 😶
Valeu, man. 🤜🤛
I wonder If kazuya got Buffed because of the
" Buff Kazuya my N word "
Should Jin Main do the Same protest 😂
BuffingJin at this point would be insane
@@QDubb123
What i mean is Not that much of a buff like Kazuya...
Maybe like making Jin's F+4 range good again and increase his chip damage little bit like the other Tekken Character.
Just make Jin Zen Cancel again… not this ghetto version in T8. Ffs even Bryan got his scaling removed wtfffff
@@doncinati7644 I actually appreciate this new ultra-elitist ZEN Cancel.
Already mastered it, so it makes no sense for me regressing to the past on this one.
I personally took it as a personal challenge: Namco wanted to kill the tech, so I transcended the mechanical obstacle *out of spite.*
@@QDubb123 My main issue with T8 Jin is his PARRY, because by restricting the _universalizing effectiveness_ of his Parry, you are *disrespecting Jin's identity: reactive gameplay.*
T8 Jin's Parry doesn't work against unblockables, charged moves, heat dashes, RA, etc
Also, they sabotaged its startup.
Many mixup strings that you would parry on reaction as a *reflex option select* are now killing Jin because one of the options is killing Jin before he can activate his Parry in time.
Some examples from many:
- Eddy b2,3/b2,4: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Eddy b2,3 and you get hit
- Asuka ff2,1/ff2,1+2: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Asuka ff2,1 and you get hit
- Kazuya df1,4/df1,df2/df1,f2: T8 Jin is now unable to Parry Kazuya df1,4 and you get hit
They MUST revert his Parry to what it always was when it comes to EFFECTIVENESS.
Now... when it comes to the _nerfed recovery on whiff,_ *I actually CELEBRATED IT*
A Jin that goes for YOLO Parry MUST be severely punished. He must PAY for messing up a deductive Parry. Now, T8 Jin is -30 for whiffing a Parry, IIRC.
People who apply reactive Parries are completely unaffected by this nerf, and _I personally fully endorse this nerf._
GREAT video from one of the greatest jin mains 💪
Great Video my guy! You're definitely a better and more patient person than me dealing with kazuya elitists lmao
They are passionate and they put dedication and effort to their craft. Got no choice but to respect it.
Kazuya players actually have to spend countless hours practicing, doing defensive drills, polishing movement and execution if they want to achieve anything.
It's not like a character like Alisa that the player can randomly poke his nose against the controller and reach Tekken God Prime basically relying on the heat engager safe power crush and hopkick as their only defensive actions.
Kazuya players DO work hard, so it's unfair to completely dismiss their claims.
I know the author must have been sniffing glue while recording this. Just SSL bro It's pointless For someone with knowledge, I showed complete ignorance Show me how you do it in combat 6:51 I don't know if you're trying to insult Kazuya players or all players, you really think people can't react to that In the game where tekken king may have have 44 defense ? This game is famous for making people stand and wait for what you will do. I didn't discover America there, just imagine that many have thought of that and you know why they don't do it? Because it doesn't work 😱 It can be used occasionally under the right conditions Jin players are the biggest cancer of this game Listening to you I lost the last bit of respect for this character, he probably complained about King and Bryan Jin is a much more brainless character in this game only two characters are worse alisa and victor I don't even want to know what went through your mind about bryan and steve
i think i had a stroke trying to read that holy
It's no coincidence that in Tekken 1, there was an unreleased character called 'Wild Card' who looked like Kazuya and had a Yoshimitsu moveset.
Having formerly played Yoshimitsu and mained him extensively, I see A LOT of his 50/50 mindgame stuff reflected in Kazuya. I play him like Yoshimitsu with higher execution and it's gotten me to Tekken King. To me, he plays like Yoshimitsu a lot. But with less BS and more mixup / 50/50 / pressure. Both are terrible when pressured but steamroll once they have built up respect from the opponent to enforce mixups.
Genuine question. I’m new to tekken, and play Kazuya. I think he’s extremely strong. But I’m having a hard time understanding how the wave dash mixup is coin flip if while he’s doing the wave dash he can be hit out of it? At low levels I can’t even apply my wave dash mixup because they just launch me for even try to wave dash on them. They don’t get conditioned to block in the 2 matches of ranked because it’s so low (I just got garyu). when I face better players that’s when I’m allowed to do the wave dash because I conditioned them to block. So my question is- how is it a coin flip if while I’m wave dashing they can just hit me on reaction once they confirm that I’m wave dashing to re align? If they don’t hit me out of it doesn’t that mean I successfully conditioned my opponent to be weary and block, thus should be rewarded? (especially since these sequences are demanding on execution, like multiple wave dashes into instant WS2 as one example) they can also lay on the floor with a delayed wake up to stop my mixup, and that’s when it’s on me as Kazuya to confirm that and go for the steel pedal. I don’t see a coin flip, I see multi layered interaction on offense and defense, with execution requirements and strict timing. (I come from street fighter and NRS. Get in the corner with sfv Cammy and then talk to me about coin flip)
@@johnydonut5768 I will answer this in que quickest and easiest way you can possibly understand: *Kazuya df2*
(Take into account the _permanent, life-deleting threat of CH df2_ and now you know what's up and understand why opponents must respect your 50/50 unless they have a death wish.)
@@NovaSeiken df2 is -12. It's not a "pErMAneNt, LiFe-dELeTinG tHreat". Start by getting good at Tekken before trying to whine about characters.
@@RainY_T-T My current level made me convincingly beat professional-level players already. Some players I play with beat Saint (yes: the korean Ganryu/Jack beast) in the past. So... I might know at least _something_ about this game.
Yes: Kazuya CH df2 is a *permanent life-deleting threat.*
It is also the permanent threat of df2 that *ALLOWS Kazuya to mix you up on the first place,* you blind, hateful, retarded cultist.
Because _if Kazuya did not have this _*_insurance policy_*_ to forbid you from pressing on the plus he created or his momentum, every single player would simply _*_MASH m4 every time Kazuya builds a plus or gets a turn._*
For decades already, Namco GAVE you Kazuya df2 _specifically for this purpose._
USE YOUR HEAD for once and try to understand what your character IS. _Understand your kit FULLY_ before coming up with this _"bUT mUh df2 -12 oN bLoCK"_ bullshit, because *this move should actually be -14 and you're actually getting off easy* and still complaining. 💀🤡
Claudio df2 is not even homing and is -13. It used to be -14 in Tekken 7 when it had a deceiving animation.
Kazuya only has to make a statement ONCE with CH df2 and the round is over. This single statement already makes the opponent terrified to press and the conditioning is already established due to the DEVASTATING NATURE of CH df2.
You're getting off easy with a life-deleting i14 homing mid, devastating CH launch that _mathematically matches perfectly with EVERY plus-frame-building tool Kazuya has_ and STILL COMPLAINING it's -12.
GTFO
@@NovaSeiken "sOmE pLaYeRS i pLAy aGAiNst bEat pRo pLayErs" "coNViNcINGly Beat PrOFEssIOnal-LEVeL plAYErS". lmao start by actually beating pros. Listen to the ACTUAL pros at EVO top 8 instead of making your own self-assured videos.
Kazuya does not "ONLy have tO mAKE A StatemeNt oNcE WitH cH df2 aNd The rouNd Is oveR". At best, with a triple just frame (PEWGF), you will get 122 damage, IF you have insane execution (which you Jin suckers don't have) and IF everything goes right. Let me remind you that everyone has 180 HP, so while you get very high damage, it's not the end of the round. No opponent is "terrified to press" against Kazuya. In fact, pressing a lot against Kazuya hurts him quite a bit as he has no panic buttons (no, df2 is not a panic button, you Jin players have Samsara anyway).
There is no such thing as an "honest" Mishima.
victor kitten spotted
great content as always king
yeah teach them cultist a lesson with your goated belt kyokushin KARATE
I’m a kaz main was able to get him to Tekken king recently and I can agree he’s a coin flip character and from Tekken 7 to 8 he’s been dumbed down even further. But when facing characters like Alisa, xiaoyu, and any of the top 5 really you begin to question why I’m even playing a Mishima in Tekken 8. When you hit the jackpot its great, as well as going broke you feel like ass. It varies from the players you face. Some are afraid of the wavu and let you fly on them. Others will give you no chance. Then the beautiful switch of coin flipping too conservative play happens. The thing is I feel like so many Kazuya players are stuck in this mind set of if I can’t coin flip I lose. Can’t tell you the amount of sets I’ve won without using a single hellsweep.
as a on & off Tekken Player that thought that he was just shit at Jin in Tekken 7, that makes sense now.
Congrats, my man: you were gaslit and played for a fool like 99% of the community. 👻
nova i really enjoyed this video especially the ace part 😂 and now i see my character in a way different light and have a way different perspective
Thanks for the appreciation, bro.
Put my heart into this one.
@@NovaSeikenI’m hoping the buff guy makes a video reacting to this keep making bangers 🔥
I find the amount of energy people expend in this community to downplay their main to be insane.
Very entertaining video 🙏
talk to em
🧐
Earned up a sub my guy I've been saying this about kazuya and Paul especially in 8, the downplay is ridiculous especially bringing up worldwide win/loss ratios of characters online when 90 pecent of tekken players do not play this game at a high level so of course the most popular characters like Reina will have a bad win/loss ratio cause most players suk ❤
I can buy a "win rates" argument when the stats refer to high level play, at the highest rank, the highest levels of play, Gods of Destruction-only, but I don't buy these hypocrites because when T7 Jin had _the worst win rate a Tekken character ever had,_ in ANY level of play, they still gaslit the entire Tekken community into believing a defective character who couldn't move laterally or hit grounded opponents was somehow a "broken SSS+++ character".
I don't buy hipocrisy.
They only talk about win rates when it's convenient in order to push a false narrative.
Nahhhh😭 8:37 Is that your voice? Did you record a "Hold It!!" just for this video??? This guy really is the🐐
@@kylefields3951 I recorded the "Hold it!", the "Objection!" and also the "Take that!"
(Gotta amp up the entertainment value... the people who appreciate my content deserve to have some fun. 😁)
Honestly I agree with all of your points in this video as a Kazuya main, but I wanted to thank you for making this video because it taught me a lot about Kazuya that I didn't know! Great stuff
@@dihgra This is *really* something else.
Thanks for the appreciation, bro.
I mean it for real.
Ah Yes more quality content
Put my heart into it, bro.
Really glad you appreciated it.
kazuya mains thinking they the only ones playing honest Tekken is the biggest joke
Yes he loses to swl that is why wavu exists and timing but raw kazuya without brain behind will get stepped and clapped unlike homing hellsweeps and unavoidable 50/50 which exist in this game. I dissagree that something that requires timing and execution (shutting steppers with either timing or advanced iws 1+2/2/twin pistons) is called coin flip imo it would be coin flip when timing and stepping was not involved at all aka ff3 was fully homing same with hellsweep. Also twin pistons wiff on jin db4 from certain ranges and angles i have seen even ws44 to wiff on tip range so there is that and let's not forget character is not one move paired with steppable db4 jin has tracking d4 and d2 to catch you and d4 range with it's tracking 16f and crushing properites is quite scary
> 11 damage, minus on hit
> _"quite scary"_
Pick one, bro. 🥴 👻
PS: Jin d4 fully tracks SSL/SWL. It can be often walked right, specially females.
(With a significant plus, it will fully track indeed.)
The thing about d4 is that Jin has to hit you *17 times with it* to win a round, whereas Dragunov d2 or Feng d2 need 11 times.
In high level play, the _sheer damage on unreactable conservative low pokes_ make quite a difference.
(Actually, it is one of the most importante features of a character for high level play, you have to believe me!)
Great video and also really useful. I learned a lot of new things about both Jin and Kazuya so thank you for that. Just out of curiosity though, I'd love to hear your reasoning for putting Lee in top 15 in the tier list? As you said in the video, Tekken 8 is about the heat state and having good pressure out of it. Lee's heat is arguably one of the worst in the game and in my opinion what little pressure you can do with Lee is not that good compared to characters that are lower than him. Thanks!
I just can't put Lee further below because he is _the only character that got to retain T7 fast CH standards of power intact._
His m4 is still i11 while Law became i13, stuff like 2,2,3 still intact and so on. Also, *b3,3 being a natural* kinda went _a little further beyond than what his identity should allow..._
That is why I can't put him away from the SOLID tier no matter what I try.
People believe Steve is the CH powerhouse, but Lee is actually above him on this regard. Lee is the true CH Paragon.
The thing is: he is definitely not Top 10. The Top 10 is far above everyone else.
Trust me I am NOT a Lee hater: I am actually a Lee fanatic and hold this character to the highest regard. I also love what they did to Lee in T8, particularly the animation rework. Acid Rain, f333334, df2, ff:2, the new revamped blue spark slide, the badass different backfist animations in Silver Fang, a new shortened Silver Fang and f4:1. Just frames everywhere, blue sparks everywhere...
I absolutely adore this character. The only reason I play Jin is because Jin is the Kyokushin karateka. He represents my martial art. Otherwise, Lee would certainly be my character.
@@NovaSeiken Thanks for the answer. I am not trying to downplay Lee either and I appreciate your opinion. It is true that Lee has excellent counter hits, but in my opinion someone like Bryan does what Lee does a lot better. Bryan got crazy counter hits into crazy amount of damage, while Lee like in 7 kind of struggles getting proper damage (outside of ws2,3 heat combo that deals a million dmg). Bryan's heat mode is also a hundred times better than Lee's. I don't hate Bryan either, I really have respect for people who can constantly taunt jet upper ( I can't do it at all lol). One thing Lee does a lot better than Bryan is punishment. Acid rain is one of the best 10f punishers in the game (if not the best).
But still I think Lee should drop a tier based off of three things: his bad heat mode, his extreme linearity and bad movement. Lee does not get anything in heat. The auto perfect inputs are meant for new and casual players and any average Lee player should be able to do perfect inputs in his sleep. So the heat mode gives proper Lee players nothing. The best thing he has is ff3 into a combo. Lee is also one of the most linear characters in the game, very few tools can track his weak side and his homing moves are very slow. And lastly his movement is bad, I constantly get hit while sidestepping moves that other characters can step. Also his backdash is bad.
Anyways thanks for the answer, loved the video and hopefully you can get the PS5 soon. 👍
@@Sharkraster Jin and Lee are suffering from the same problem: we don't get an existing Heat State. We have our silver bullet (Heat Smash/Heat Dash) and that's it.
The thing about Lee's linearity (which is real indeed) is that the moves that are indeed linear are _not supposed to be stepped_ because you should often use them when people *come swinging at you* like his trademark b4 keepout.
b4 is ridiculously powerful. The recovery on whiff is almost nonexistent to the point you can throw this move at a distance and probably not even a tight dash electric will launch you in time unless the opponent predicted a whiffed b4 outta nowhere and advanced preemptively. The recovery is so ridiculous that it's safe on Parry.
There's also the case for 1+2.
If people are SSL ducking Lee, 1+2 is a perfect CH homing mid that goes into HMS and you can cancel HMS to be 100% safe OB.
The thing is: people can press fast buttons to interrupt your 1+2.
That is when Lee CH game comes into play.
I can't really tell which one is stronger, Lee or Bryan. I have my chips on Lee. Guess I'll have to see it for myself...
A Bryan who can consistently Taunt b4 is already scary as f_ck. TJU is merely the icing on the cake: it's not really necessary at all.
Look I like buff guys content, but he tried to say Kaz is harder to play than Bryan; and I can't say I agree. Sure Bryan doesn't have to do electrics or crouch dash inputs, but you have to work so much harder to enforce Bryans game plan than Kazuyas.
I play both, and I disagree, Bryan is easier and also stronger.
@@SGHNTZ honestly would love to hear why you think so.
@@tinyparcel6305 i agree with the other guy, Bryan is a little more streamlined this game and is rewarded much more with less of a risk in t8 compared to t7.
@@barryjohnson5426 again not saying you're just would more concrete evidence, didn't play T7 much so I don't have much to go off there.
Great video backed up with evidence btw how do you do the Zen cancel to make it safe?
"This is reality" hahahaha
You gonna play the Miles Edgeworth Collection when it drops, Nove? 👀Sick video, as ever. The *EDGEY* Karate Guy never misses💯
I think the "High winrates" debate is stupid to begin with. Gigas had one of the highest win rates in T7 (if I'm not mistaken), yet no one here will call him S-tier.
@@TheNerffreak11 I wasn't the one who brought win rates into the conversation, and these hypocrites were also nowhere to be seen when T7 Jin had the absolute worst win rate in Tekken history, unable to move laterally and unable to hit grounded opponents.
Kazuyas is considered honest because everyone knows whats coming, in most cases.
He is alot like Paul, you know what to expect; that doesn't mean you can do anything to stop it however.
My friend really doesn't like getting clipped walking left, thinks it's bullshit... but I've always done microdash electrics so they rarely miss
Noob question, do people mean something specific when they say “chunky low”? Is it referring basically to an attack that’s somewhere between a low poke and a snake edge? (Like, less risk but not a full juggle, probably knocks down/minicomboes on counterhit, etc?)
@@blazaybla22 My criteria for "chunky low":
- 17+ Damage
- Plus on hit
Like how the voice reader sounds like an experienced player whose been thru it all and smokes e-cigs to deal with idiocracy of all other tekken players
we need ur insight on lee downplayers
lee downplayers are on the rise right now
and it snowballed with arslan ash tierlist
@@Omar12521 I happen to be a Lee fanatic. 😆
What I mean is I hold this character to the *highest regard* and _aside from b3,3 becoming a natural_ (his identity should not allow this), I love every single thing Namco did with the character in T8 to the very minute details.
He is VERY strong in T8. Very solid.
But he is clearly not in the Top 10 because the Top 10 is absolutely non-negotiable, being far stronger than everyone else.
I believe I could contribute to the conversation, but the *tone* of the video would inevitably end up somewhat different.
(Lee players are often not universally hostile to Jin like Kazuya cultists are.) 👻
@@NovaSeiken well that really fair point
but my reasoning for my comment is that it went downhill like crazy
ppl actually think that he is bottom 3 from arslan tierlist which is insane to me
like i find ppl say that he is the honest of all characters like bro b 3 3 exists lmao
but man im feeling lee mains slowly adopt kazuya mains mentality and i dont want this to happen 🤦♂
@@Omar12521 I know it was quite a slippery slope... 😅 LMAO
I believe I could add something to this conversation.
The problem is time. 😅
Producing this vid, for example, took almost a WEEK out of my free time because I am a damn perfectionist and obstinated to the point of not wanting to leave any single detail unmentioned.
This channel has a very small following. There are people who actively organize to disenfranchise and mass-hate this channel as much as they can.
@@NovaSeiken and because of that it proves that u are giving straight up facts (well i disagree with some) but more than 95% of what u say in that video is stright up true
keep it up man
cant wait for a lee video if u are making one ofc
kazuya mains are in shambles right now lmao
@@Omar12521 Are they? 😅 They barely joined the conversation yet, as I see it.
I will wait for a prominent Kazuya player to tackle my points if I am wrong.
(I wish people shared my content more, specially the ones _aimed at starting a discussion._
The followers usually end up enjoying the vid for themselves. 👻)
What are you talking about timing , wait I have to actually adapt with kazuya?
You are a joke dude
very helpful info
Glad you appreciated it, bro. 😄
The reason f4 lost its range is likely due to, the stance transition mixup ob
This video is REALLY good, man. You should be proud
@@crisisjack Yo... 😶
This is REALLY saying something. 😳
Thanks, bro. 🤜🤛
i'm curious on one thing : what makes you think yoshimitsu is top 4 ? i think he is a top 10 for the simple reason that he is the ultimate anti-meta character, but i don't agree that he's above the likes of shaheen who are virtually flawless characters, whereas yoshi in spite of his rule-breaking tools has a proper list of glaring issues and counterplay.
As a Shaheen Player who knows a lot about Yoshi, allow me make an argument. All of my Tekken "Career" has been against a Yoshi Main. I know a lot about the Character for someone who's never played him.
Yoshimitsu has far higher peaks. One of Yoshi's biggest flaws was inconsistency combined with the lack of the ability to enforce a DF1-> Small Tekken Mindgame. There are two big things that have been a big boon to Yoshi introduced in 8. Lateral Movement across the board is better which means that Yoshi's Generic Down Forward 2 sees more usage due to its ability to land from more positions than before. That and now Yoshi has the ability to throw one big Mixup on the table thanks to Heat as a Universal Mechanic. Yoshi is allowed one "Silver Bullet" as Nova would call them per Round and can go in with a Mid that has good +Frames. Yoshi's never had something like that, so combining the ability to play Anti-Meta, make the opponent second guess their Offence, has a Low Unblockable Unreactable Sword Sweep, has Spin, has a Traditional Tekken Down Forward 2, has crazy Evasive properties with Roo Kick Full Crouch Down Forward 4 and Hopknee, the list just goes on and on.
In short, Yoshi can now play you legit thanks to Heat. It's just skewed. And his wacky shenanigans are just as strong as they were before, and that's an extremely threatening combination especially in a Tournament environment where everyone is stressed and nervous.
Shaheen is flawless. NO flaws. But his peaks aren't as high and you have to Outplay the opponent every game. When Shaheen wins an engagement, he usually doesn't win them by that much. You have to make use of 0, +1 or +2 constantly. Slide is great, but you have to find Positions where you won't just get Hit by a Mid for it to pop off. His only Situations where he really wins them and it's hard for you to do anything about it are Heat related, so things other characters do anyway. Shaheen can say: "Fuck it, Hopkick" with one of the best Hopkicks in the Franchise, but it's no substitute for Flash at Top Level and doesn't Evade Mids. Hopkick isn't threatening enough to make the opponent consistently second-guess how they want to engage on *THEIR* Advantage.
I actually agree with both of Nova's Placements as I think Shaheen is clearly strong enough to be Top 10 and that Yoshi's peaks when played well are without doubt Top 5. Yoshi has flaws, but so does Dragunov. Completeness doesn't necessarily equate with strength. It often DOES, but what is most important in a competitive format are the amount of threats you can present to your opponent. Shaheen damn well might play Generic Tekken the best in the entire Cast, but you have to be better than your opponent full stop to win with the Basics. All Shaheen's Basics are above average in every category, but they're still the Basics. And he doesn't have Stature Kick or Hatchet Kick. If he wants a high damage, advantageous Low he has to go for the Stealth Step 4 or Slide.
I'd rate Yoshi 5 and Shaheen 7. Shaheen's really amazing, but he can't just Spam you down with stuff in or out of Heat.
@@kylefields3951 i must correct you on a few things :
- sword sweep is NOT unreactable, it is i26 and requires 15 frames of crouch, which means it's more than reactable. you can hopkick this on reaction when done in neutral, and as a tech trap if it isn't immediately done to catch a tech roll on a hard read, many characters have an option to beat it (bryan can WS 3, lili can jump over and launch, eddy can evade it, raven can parry it etc ...) ;
- unlike dragunov, yoshi has a very long list of genuine weaknesses : lackluster fundamentals, bear movement, bad frames, bad lows, poor tracking, the single worst WS punishment, absolute lack of a safe mid heat engager from default stance, and possibly the worst character when it comes to mounting a comeback. i was at the mixup yesterday and i along with other top french players ran some ft5s with knee, and against yoshi specifically all he will do is pick feng and turtle and just check you endlessly with b4, stagger his pressure when he has momentum, and simply punish. that means that in order to beat a turtle as yoshi, you have to take insane risks that no other character has to take. of course, all of these weaknesses are warranted considering he gets to break the rules in return and also gets access to the single best wall oki situation in the game : flipover/sword sweep oki. simply put : good MU knowledge, strong defense and patience can and will shut down yoshi ;
- i disagree with the comparison between shaheen hopkick and flash. whereas shaheen's hopkick is -13 on block with good range and active frames, flash is death on whiff with non-existent range. again, at the mixup we've seen kaneandtrench completely get shut down by book who showed how to bait out yoshi's defensive tools, like how he was able to punish spin with heat smash to secure the win. as for the fact that yoshi can make people scared of taking their frames, there is once again clear counterplay to this and it has always been the same ever since flash was a 6 frame mid : stagger your offense and do not systematically take your frames. the tradeoff is that if you start turtling, yoshi cannot do much to open you up, as he doesn't have a scary low or a lockdown mid, and will instead rely on stances and generally risky gameplay. there are also far more clips of top level players getting hopkicked by shaheen than flashed by yoshi ;
- yoshi cannot spam you down (as you said) in heat, he simply doesn't have the frames to do that, his only plus frame moves from default stance are 3,1 which is a duckable high mid that leads into another duckable risky mixup, or running 3 which is comically linear and has a terrible hitbox. f1+2 will burn heat and heat smash is i18 which is on the slower end for heat smashes, and doesn't do appropriate damage for how slow it is (king's is i18 and his does 60 damage, and he also gets a stance mix on block). besides, shaheen actually can spam you down in heat, because he has the tools to do so.
i realize that i may sound biased because i am a yoshi player, but i know this character inside and out and have played him for years, the reality of this character is far from what most people say. there is a reason why when arslan picks alisa he immediately wins a tournament but when he picks yoshi he's still at the drawing board even though it's been weeks. there is also a reason why the only people who've performed well with yoshimitsu are people who've been playing this character for at least a decade (higem, kaneandtrench, eyemusician, sin and trizzytherapper). almost everytime i see someone complain about yoshimitsu, they're not applying the proper counterplay to the character, and it often simply boils down to skill issue (not saying this is the case for you, but this is true in general).
yoshi is a very strong character and might always be a strong character because he actively goes against the aggressive nature of tekken 8 and is allowed to kill people for running their offense, but i believe putting him in top 5 when there are plenty of characters in top 10 that are comparatively better is simply incorrect. i'm open to having my mind changed though.
@@enderborn9209 I'm willing to agree with pretty much everything you said but it's agreed upon by most Players that only 20 Frames and beyond is Reactable.
Yoshi's Low Sword Sweep is an Unblockable, which means that you have to jump over it, NOT Block it. By the time you see it, Frames 22-24 (being generous) you can't Low Block or Parry. No Attacks in the Game Low Crush on Frame 1. They start their Crushing Properties on Frames 8 and onward. If you get Hit by Hopkicks while doing it, it's because they committed to Keepout or they made a Read. On Reaction, you get Hit by Sword Sweep, because you can't jump over it with at the maximum inhumane reaction time of 6 Frames because there's literally not enough to do so. It's Seeable, not Reactable. I worded it this way on purpose. You React to it by getting Hit by it. Kane is one of my favourite Players, and I watch his Matches with great intent because I like watching him play. He Hits people with Low Sword like 80% of the time he goes for it in Neutral (NOT Oki) and the opponent tries to Hopkick and still gets Hit because you can't do it on Reaction.
@@kylefields3951 you're not accounting for the frames of crouch needed to have it come out in the first place. it's 15 frames of crouch for FC DF1 and 11 frames of crouch for the alternate input (FC b1). besides, i talked about reaction hopkick but you can also simply backdash out of it since the range is non-existent. in general players who are aware of it and have decent experience against yoshimitsu will beat this out 99% of the time. i know you will never hit me with a run up sword sweep because i will backdash or low crush it everytime.
one scenario where it's 100% unreactable is for fake punishment, where you block a low that you can't launch and do FC b1 as a punish. in that case yes i agree that it's 100% impossible to react and backdash in time.
I've been blessed by content
@@solarteal And I have been blessed with a new buddy. 🤜🤛
when you call it a coinflip and then explain how there is actually delayed timing mixes rather than a 5050 then it's no longer a 5050 coinflip... you're contradicting yourself and proving the point that in most situations the mixup is not a true 5050 which makes it much weaker. Any mixup that relies on mixing delayed timings is not a 5050. Im sorry but this video is actually braindead
YOU HAVE TO SEE THIS RSKYLUCK PLAYER THAT DOWNPLAYS CLAUDIO IN EVERYSTREAM , he calls seff (carried by the character )
The downplay on Jin is cringe as hell. Jin is insanely stupid and is flat out better than Kaz in almost everyday. He's also easy as hell
He literally says Jin is better than Kazuya in the video
I agree that Kazuya is stronger and more versatile than what most people say, including TMM as he really loves to say "muh main so hard to play". However, it's absolutely disingenuous to call people out downplaying their main when you're basically downplaying yours. Jin is absolutely strong, that's not even a question. Is he hard to play? Despite all of the "dumbing down" in T8, yeah he is, at least at the highest level of play. That's not even a question either. Joka and HK Jr. even said that Jin is ridiculous (as stated in this vid: th-cam.com/video/KR-JlB-SsrE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ThuuAUqTNYuo0-0-&t=54), Raef (one of the best Jin main btw) also said Jin is super strong in this game. Is he broken though? Now, that's debatable.
All in all, valid video as far as about the arguments of Kazuya being underrated, the rest are just strawman at best. Even I dare to say that Leo might as well be a contender for top 10 even though barely any Leo players ever made it to Top 16/8 in majors (except probably Ayorichie) and I'm Leo main. I recognize that he might be stronger than what people say due to him going under the radar most of the time. Just stop whining about your own character, grow some balls, and step out of your bubble man.
But Raef also said Jin isn't top 5, meanwhile everybody's claiming he's top 5 or even top 1 or as strong as Drag. Jin's major weakness are the lows (Arsalan also mentioned it), I realized that way before when my friend start reacting to llrk, d2 and db4, goodluck then making your mids effective.
Loved the ace attorney shit, got a good laugh out of me.
Side note: I would love to see a Heihachi video. He's by far my favorite tekken character, and I miss him already:(
Saying kaz has bad tracking when df2 exists is pure cope. It is one of the BEST homing attacks in the entire series ! . plus 5 on hit , only minus 12 , and counter hit launches with VERY small blockstun window that i even see pro players fail to punish it OFFLINE. On top of that only minus 14. This makes him extreemly SCARY to step up close.
Solid video I fully agree
You completely ruined your argument the moment you decided to add timing mixups to the reason kazuya is “dishonest”. That’s just pure Tekken at that point. If you’re complaining about pure Tekken, why’re you even here?
That rant was awesome, how close are you to getting a PS5?
Nova's voice acting arc has officially begun 😂
Could be an attorney arc, who knows... 😅👻
@@NovaSeiken Ace Attorney Let's Play on the channel while waiting for the PS5? 👀
I mean hes exaggerating but generally mishimas require more execution to play than the rest of the cast save the rare case like king, steve, lee for example
High quality content
I'm suprised that you still on 1k subs
@@AlfalfaAccess Many people organize to mass-hate and disenfranchise the channel, unfortunately.
(Standing up to truth in the past had a price. Seems like I'll keep paying this price forever.)
@@NovaSeiken
Keep telling the truth don't care about the hate bro...
As long as you speak wih facts and data
Don't be afraid
@@NovaSeiken
Do you also plan to play Reina?
Because i would love to watch you explaning her moveset in detail.
Like her weakness or maybe she's more broken, etc
@@AlfalfaAccess I might try. She has artistic value, not so different from Jin. People barely explore it because of the overwhelming nature of some buttons in her kit.
counterpoint: im shit at tekken and cant correctly do any of this
As much as i love kazuya and the mishimas i totally agree kazuya players have gotten WAY too comfortable acting like kazuya is "pure, honest tekken." Personally i think no tekken character is actually honest and they all have their own flavor of bullshit. Im perfectly fine with that being the case and still love the series, but damn people really need to let go of the ego coming from who they choose to main.
his mix-up is most definitely super strong not going to try to downplay, applying said mix-up well (wavu mix) takes some technical skills and alot of practice and reading ur opponent (mind games) same with electrics, ff3 and qc-1+2 are the biggest linear options, but he does get some cheese, d1+2, db 1,2, but my personal opinion is he is still in the higher tier for difficulty, i do however believe the goat arslan ash when he says jin is s tier in his most recent vid
@@JonerB1023 I would never trust Arslan Ash when it comes to tier lists. He said the same about T7 Jin. He also put Lee at the very bottom (way below Devil Jin LMAO), he also put Lili and Leo way below Jin: that is a *material impossibility* since both Jin and Leo are generalist characters except T8 Leo is superior to T8 Jin in every single department when it comes to Tekken *except* keepout (he gets CH f4 and she doesn't, her CH d2 doesn't work keepout that well.
I play both characters and can assure T8 Leo is much, MUCH stronger than T8 Jin. Leo is actually the most slept on character in this game.)
He doesn't put his money where his mouth is and he is the *quintessential definition of a tier wh_re.*
He will always rely on the most broken abominations in the meta and he is always monkey-branching to the next broken thing. When Kazumi was a fundie abomination with ridiculously generous properties, he used her: the moment they balanced her the dude *immediately* jumped ship. Guys like Ulsan, on the other hand, had dignity: Ulsan sticked to his guns.
If Arslan Ash ever had to play T8 Jin, he would not make even to top 64. If he ever had to play T7 Jin, he would never make it past POOLS.
That is why I don't trust him. *He never put his money where his mouth is.* I personally prefer Korean Tekken than Pakistani Tekken. I mean... their _perspective on Tekken._
Knee had the best definition for Jin when he was asked on tier lists, he said these exact words:
_"If Parry 100%, besto characta."_
(If a guy doesn't have room temperature IQ, he will soon realize _this proposition is humanly impossible._ 😅)
TLDR: If T8 Jin was as powerful and broken as Arslan CLAIM he is, Arslan would pick him, being the quintessential tier wh*re he is.
This guy is actually a genius. When you add so much cringe at the same time, it’s no longer embarrassing but funny to watch. Pure comedy. 10/10 would watch again.
@@StasionSpasski Glad you appreciate it.
I'm still right, tho: you call me cringe but can't call me a liar. Life goes on.
@@NovaSeikenThat’s what makes it even better. You clearly believe in what you are saying. Also please check the meaning of the word ‘liar’. You seem to misuse this word a lot.
@@StasionSpasski I use the word "liar" quite appropriately: _someone who is telling a lie._
That makes someone a liar.
The question is if they are doing it out of _ignorance,_ or _malice._
(I always, invariably, assume _the former_ at first.)
2:51 Kazuya is definitely not the most advanced Tekken character tho
Buff Guy is kinda just following the footprints that TheMainMan laid down for him. Whiny saltlords who basically made “playing a Tekken character they consider to be difficult/honest” into their whole personality (on their TH-cam channels anyway) so an attack on the notion that Kazuya is anything but rocket science in video game form is literally an attack on them personally
Kazuya players should be proud of their character. I see no prob with it.
The problem, as I see it, is the _curtain of myths surrounding this character._
They didn't need to lie so much for this character to earn his due respect.
(Also, their nonstop hostility/disinformation campaign towards Jin/Jin players is an interesting subject to me. 👻)
@@NovaSeikenOoh, okay, I hadn’t finished this video when I wrote that comment 😂 I didn’t realize it was more to downplay Jin than anti-downplay Kazuya. Not gonna lie, I don’t have the knowledge necessary to really carry out a debate like the one you had with the Kazuya main, but when I watch CBM’s Jin vs Jodd’s Nina at Dreamhack, I just don’t see the type of deficiencies you’re talking about. I’m not trying to draw too many conclusions from just one set but Jodd, an amazing player whose Nina is unparalleled, is still getting hit by Jin d2 offline, in situations where he could’ve theoretically reacted to it. I appreciate your insight into the entire Tekken franchise but with all respect I’m just not sure how much I trust your analysis of the Tekken 8 ecosystem when it seems like you really haven’t played this specific game all that much. Again, I mean that respectfully, I’m sure you’d still crush me, but I don’t know what to think about the “undisputed top 10” bit that leaves out Jin when I do see pros putting Jin in their top 10s or top 5s
@@blazaybla22 I had the opportunity to play with the best from my region.
The experience I had is: everyone gets to enter GOD MODE the moment they enter Heat.
I get to remain playing Tekken with a silver bullet to spend, which is always a mid.
The defensive modus operandi doesn't change at nothing. It remains the same anti-Jin defense because there are no enhanced low threats/high guard break threats like everyone else.
I like to believe I DO have the best Engager in the game, that is, Jin ff2, insanely overtuned compared to original, traditional ff2.
It just happens to be the best Engager for a non-Heat state.
The people who play with me claim the same thing: "nothing changes when you're in Heat. Your lows are still d3 and d4. You spend Heat Smash, it's over"
You don't have to take my experience as absolute, Evangelical truth, but I can assure you I AM trustworthy and I speak with peace of mind.
Jin is not my only character.
I have many other characters on his level of performance, such as Devil Jin and Leo.
Leo is a supersoldier version of Leo in this game. Devil Jin, on the other hand is suffering... HARD.
I see T8 Jin as a very solid character and I see the Top 10 as absolutely non-negotiable, them being far, far above every other character.
I am not downplaying Jin in any way because *I believe in my character* and his reactive potential is still there.
I will ask you this: have I lied in any moment about T8 Jin's Heat state?
I will also ask you this: have you ever realized the so-called pro players who put Jin in SSS+++ NEVER put their money where their mouth is?
*Why aren't any of these hypocritical mofos using him, then?* Why is it that _only the most obstinate character specialists DARE to put this guy in competitive play?_
Arslan Ash is the quintessential tier wh*re, for example: he is always consistently monkey-branching to the next broken thing.
He claims "Jin is top 5".
_Why doesn't he pick him, then?_
I will tell you why: because he would not make it past pools if he ever had to play Jin competitively.
You have to start asking these questions because *they matter*
Have you ever seen a "top 3 character" experience any kind of _rejection_ or _hesitation?_
Wouldn't he be WIDELY picked beyond a few obstinate specialists?
Have you ever considered the possibility you've been gaslit into believing in a lie?
They DID lie in T7...
My only claim is that there are characters in this game that are *legit BROKEN.*
T8 Jin is a strong character.
The Top 10 are broken.
I hope you understand my reasoning.
I wish you the best, man.
And thanks for watching the vid.
@@blazaybla22 Also, my experience with d2 was:
My training partners were consistently reacting to it *from the beginning.*
So that bothered me to the point I had to see it for myself. Then, I went mirror and literally reacted to ALL of them. 100% block rate in 3 matches.
Then, I recorded various training drills proving its reactability.
That was about it.
I'm not even saying high-level players will 100% react to it. I completely understand many people won't.
But _if they react to HALF of them,_ it's already a f*cked up scenario, man...
The price Jin had to pay for this damn d2 in *high-level play* makes this d2 completely not worth it at all.
(The state of Jin db4 and Jin d3 is catastrophic. All in exchange for this damn d2. His entire specialized low game, which wasn't amazing from the beginning, was gutted.)
Jin's lows for high level play were always d3,3 and d4.
Jin lost d3,3.
Now he only has d4.
You have to beg for scraps with 11 damage -1 hit until the very end, while the opponent is returning 15~23 damage +1~+5 hit.
@@NovaSeikenIt’s not that I don’t trust your perspective. Of course I do (and I can tell you have a lot of insight to offer just on the strength of your legacy knowledge). It’s just that I wonder if your perspective is limited by the fact you haven’t engaged with Tekken 8 to the same extent as previous games and you may not even know where it’s limited. (“Unknown unknowns” - I certainly don’t know what I don’t know!)
This has less to do with skill or gameplay or anything like that, and more to do with the nature of knowledge: as Nicholas Taleb said, “the problem with knowledge is that there are more books on birds written by ornithologists than books on birds written by birds or books on ornithologists written by birds”
For example… I’m not trying to compare you to Buff Guy and MainMan but just making a more general point - in their most recent tier lists they put Nina as Top 1. Now I’m a Nina main, lower level obviously, and I’m not at all out to downplay her, when Jodd says she’s the best in the game I listen, but I also just know Kazuya is one of her better matchups so I don’t really trust BuffGuy and MainMan’s placement of her on their tier lists in large part because I don’t believe they have enough of an understanding of 1) the entire roster and 2) how every character plays against every other other at the highest levels to actually make that claim.
The reasons they give for Nina being top 1 don’t track with what I see making her strong in tournaments - it’s more just them saying what (I know) she does that works well against Kazuya (but for example less well against Feng, Alisa and other characters that have better range on their attacks, as her midrange neutral is objectively an issue for her in determining how well she’ll do in a matchup)
So again, it’s not a direct comparison of you with them or anything, and I know you’ve played against great players and I’m sure done well, but to me that doesn’t equal the depth of experience you get from actually playing with this game for so many hours and witnessing all the roster interactions playing out over and over again, in a million different ways, in the same way that Tekken 8 pro players do. You can of course dismiss my opinion but I think blanket claiming “Heat = God Mode” is a limited perspective. My character gets a lot out of Heat, Alisa gets a lot out of Heat, but there are other top 10 characters that don’t get nearly as much out of it. I don’t know what the story is with you and T8 but I do hope you someday get it and dive into it and maybe revisit certain opinions depending on whether you still find them to be true :)
Great videos and editing and everything btw!
When did this video become a kazuya debunk into a jin donwplay, now you aint better than that guy, both of you are salty and wrong at this point
Jin Player detected opinion rejected
@@quekZo95 I wish all the best to you, bro. Life goes on.
@@NovaSeiken Apparently life doesn't go on at least not for you. You're still getting your panties in a twist over this. It's a damn video game bro. Get a life. You complain more then playing the game. It's sad & old.
Kaz is honest.
Most characters that are male are honest
you know what Kaz is going to do
Yes he is. I liked him way more in T7 but lets be honest. Every char is braindead now. Its T8. Also dont forget thiv video creator plays jin 😂
Good that im taking a break and playing the current better fighting game SF6
@@quekZo95 SF6 looks good, but not my cup of tea. if I were to go back I thing I would play only manon.
I see that Jin's d2 isn't homing but here's the problem, you have to react instantly after the move is inputted, there's no way you can reaction and sidestep in time, it must be read. Overall W Video.
why sidestep when you can just block and launch
@@Nico-tz7ut Because not all characters have a 14 frame ws launcher
been a while and I've already quit the game (not coming back)
but thanks for actually exposing hyper incompetent frauds, someone is doing the job for me at least
I wouldn't go as far as claiming such things like "fraud".
Kazuya players are often passionate and really dedicate themselves to their craft. They do work hard.
But I'm glad you appreciated the vid, bro.
Put my heart into this one to start a conversation with quality content. 😄
@@NovaSeiken yeah my bad for actually going that far
I wrote it and forgot to check, I definitely was overly emotional and over the board
Why do you think lee is top 15 ? he has shit tourney ressults (literally none) and arslan put him bottom 3. You beat him with traditional tekken option selects . Sidestep electric to beat 1+2 , sidestep duck to beat most other options etc
@@praisemidir It's not that simple.
You're mainly talking about his offense...
(How can SS electric beat Lee 1+2? That I did not understand. A proper SS to create enough space to _actually evade his other options through SSL duck_ will consume many frames. Lee 1+2 will kill you on the frame mathematics)
- He is the only character in T8 that got to retain the fast CH standards of power from T7.
2,2,3 CH confirm intact, m4 remained i11 while Law became i13 and so on.
Dude has a *T7 CH game inside T8.*
His identity also shouldn't allow natural b3,3 but he got it anyway.
His Acid Rain as the best fast punisher in the game is also something else to be taken into account.
For cons, just like Jin, he has a non-Heat state.
At the very least he can threaten with ff3 mid launcher OR Smash hellsweep as a low. Two complementary silver bullets, mid or low.
Jin has QUITE a silver bullet, insane whiff punisher, but it is always a mid so the opponent never whiffs, backdashes all day and just lets your Heat bar run out until you have no other choice left than to Heat Smash/Heat Dash on his stand guard.
Don't get me wrong: I am not a Lee hater. I am actually a Lee fanatic and I hold this character to the highest regard.
@@NovaSeiken Sidestep electric does beat lee 1+2. Knee uses it at high level to option select df1 , jabs , db3 , and still beat 1+2 and mostly all his other slower options. (though this is obviously infintely easier with kaz due to his consistently faster electric)
I agree with you that his CHs are good. But lee players have been getting clapped everywhere and he does not work at high lvl if u just turtle him . also b33 is plus 4 but lee df1 does not track in even plus 4 so he has to mix it up with df4 for tracking which is kind off stiff.
(Also like arslan said db3+4 is REACTABLE) If it was not i would agree he would be higher tier. But he does not have a safe source of plus +4 unfourtantely.)
Btw i do appreciate your love for jin even though i do not play him as much as lee. Because since t7 he was the only "mishima" i played in depth as i found his gameplan to be quite intelligent and defensive with a lot of counterplay possible by the opponent.
@@NovaSeiken Also i would like to mention even though lee is "bottom 3" that does not mean he does not handle some matchups well. I think he handles jin pretty well due to launching d2 (makes the suppousedly safe snake edge that does not home like tool used to CH only no longer safish and basically death for jin), And in general him being fast up close while jin is kind of slow.
plus lee's range issues basically don't exist when fighting jin because jin has a disabled backdash like lee does (maybe even worse tbh due to his body) Actually i think it is
Imo he also handles bryan well. But when you put him against other character or even other mishimas like kaz ? He kinda melts
@@praisemidir Lee db3+4 is *indeed* reactable, I agree.
So is Jin db4, LLRK and d2, but people often say I'm a LIAR "because TMM said they are not reactable". 💀
@@praisemidir Isn't he supposed to dismantle Kaz because of Lee ff4?
This move is killer on characters too much reliant on electrics like Kazuya.
It outspeeds ff3, it completely ignores the electric.
counter argument, Lee has the worst heat in the game, and is even more of a silver bullet than Jin is when it comes to heat. The only thing you really get out of heat from lee is WS 2, 3 combo, and combo off of ff3. That is mainly it. no frames, only chip and execution you should already have.
I think Lee has it more rough than Jin, but I feel for Jin, and didn't know the character had so many issues
@@robby6382 I agree: Lee also has a non-Heat state, also relying on a single silver bullet.
As an upside, the Burst per se has a quite great utility to him, making WS2,3 a full launcher. If Lee reaches the wall with this combo, it leads to massive damage because of the newfound HMS uf4 hard spike.
Jin has an utility to Burst for combo obtimization involving multiple microdashes and the elite tech: 3,1~ZEN Cancel Heat Burst.
Don't get me wrong: I am a Lee fanatic. I adore this character and I hold this guy to the highest regard.
I understand that bringing that up in the video would have been tangential and wouldn't have made your point as clear as you generally main Jin. I'm curious on your general thoughts on Arslans tier list too
Eae Nova irmão tudo joia? Como está a correr os fundos para a ps5?
Ansioso para mais content teu seja Jin ou outra personagem
Em relação ao vídeo eu sou Kazuya main e acredito que ele está bem forte nesse Tekken embora fosse muito inconsistente até ao último patch pelo menos
Ele sempre foi high risk high reward não é segredo nenhum mas o jogador n pode depender apenas do 50/50 principalmente em high level
O poking é decent e concordo que db4 seja great (Keisuke é um apreciador nato)
O erro do buff guy foi fazer do debate jin vs kazuya pois não se tratava disso em primeira instância
Concluindo esse Tekken n há realmente personagens honestas devido ao heat e a natureza agressiva do jogo portanto estes debates nunca irão chegar a um consenso na comunidade
Um salve e tudo de bom para ti irmão!
@@ShadyNeto Obrigado pelo apreço, man.
Eu tentei fugir do debate Jin vs Kazuya o quanto pude, mas ele disse mentiras sobre o Jin.
Nunca falei nenhuma mentira sobre o Kazuya: eu aprecio o Kazuya pelo que ele é e no passado defendi o Kazuya quando ele tava com problemas de consistência.
Gastei dias de tempo livre pra fazer um vid contribuindo sobre a discussão do T8 Kazuya pre-patch 1.05, com sugestões que tornariam ele ainda mais consistente do que acabaram oferecndo pros Kazuya players no fim.
Valeu pelo suporte, man. 🤜🤛