0:47 I believe the images for 'Duck footed' and 'Pigeon' are the wrong way round. Duck footed (toes pointing outwards, heels inwards) require you to point the cleat inwards to bring the heel towards the bike. Best way to remember this is to point the cleat opposite to where you want your toes to point. So when looking at the bottom of the left shoe as in the pictures shown, you want to rotate your cleat clockwise (pointed in) if you want your toes to point out. The opposite is true for pigeon toes.
We were testing you 🙃 You are TOTALLY right, our mistake. Thank you so much for pointing this out so will pin your comment and let people know :) Thanks again. You know your stuff!
It's disturbing that Phil makes the same mistake at about 4:07. That's a bit like a professional pianist explaining that the low keys are on the right of the keyboard.
As a beginner cyclist I’ve just got my first pair of clipless shoes and pedals, and I just knew you would have a video to help me fit them! Your channel really is a gold mine
Something worth mentioning is that the feet are not always symmetrical. My right foot tips outward more than my left and my cleat placement is reflected in this. Too easy to think everything should be even from side to side, but it's not. Look at your footprints in the snow (if you have some). Great advice as always Phil. Great content as always Katie.
Same for me. Always been that way. I'm thinking it stems from how roads and sidewalks are sloped. Maybe my right foot is always sticking out more slightly to prevent me from tilting over to the right, just as a component of the total support it gives me. Fucked up if true
Just a point. You can change the way you walk, I did. I was a little duck footed which was causing me problems when runnng so my PT intructor had me think about my foot placement with each and every step, literally. That was 8 years ago when I was 57. After about a year or so I'd say, and hundreds of running miles, and also when I was walking, I found that I was planting my feet forward quite naturally. Since then it's always been something I'm conscious of and keep an eye on. Love the Phil sessions. Unlike other bike-fit experts on YT, Phil isn't into reinventing the wheel. BTW, thanks for covering MTB cleats.
I’ve had the MTB cleats set full aft for a year now … works great! That helped address some knee discomfort that I had while riding my endurance road bike. Ta very much Phil and Katie for another excellent BFF (Bike Fit Film)! 🚴♂️😀
A really helpful video Katie. As always Phil explains the reasoning behind setup extremely clearly and offers great advice on how to optimise your fit and avoid issues. You ask the right questions which gives us the answers we need. As we replace our cleats on a fairly regular basis I find it useful to refer to a photograph of the position which works for me, to ensure that I get them spot on each time they are changed.
Such brilliant timing as I’ve just purchased a new pair of road shoes and have to set my cleats up. Was going to re-read Phil’s excellent book and the section on cleats, but now got the advise from the man himself. Thanks Katie, excellent video as always.
I struggle to relate the cleats set up with the walking pattern: in my case the way I pedal is closer to a more active body engagement, like if you were pushing a car or a slide in the gym. In this case my feet are not in the same position when I walk, when more load is added to the pushing effort. Moreover the cycling stance is necessarily closer than when I walk and this also has an impact on the feet position. I found it easier to start with the cleats in a neutral position and then change the alignment by feel, following where the foot wants to move in that particular situation. I agree on the backward position, this is the best change I made.
NOTE: The images at 0:47 are the opposite way round - so see the pinned comment from Jay Johnson :) Thanks and sorry for the error. Cleats mess with my head because they have to be flipped over - so confusing!! haha. hopefully this clears things up. Thanks again to Jay for pointing it out. x
Oh my Goodness! Phil's speaking has become so professional and easy to understand. 👏👏👏 Take a bow, Phil. Well done. P.S. Great thoughts about cleat position too. More clapping. 👏👏👏
Never really thought about how I walk till I saw this video, took a short walk at home and asked someone else to look as well, turns out that I'm a straight ahead type, no birds in my podiatric genetic past. But I've always used SPD-SL yellow cleats, the ones with 6 degrees of float. I'm wondering though if I'd be better off with the blue ones that have 2 degrees either way. In decades of cycling I've had exactly zero foot, knee or other joint issues so I must have been doing something right, but I do wonder if too much float is losing me some efficiency and if I have the position just right. In fact I just picked up a new pair of shoes, Shimano RC702 wides, and keep putting off installing cleats on them. Hopefully this video will help me get that done and over with.
Thanks as always Katie and Phil. I wanted to your last question about cleat/foot angle being positioned based on the angle one walks at vs. the angle one should walk/pedal at. I am certain that I am a very rare exception here, but I had a problem because I set up my cleats by looking at how much my feet naturally rotate. The problem is that I had a hiking accident a few years ago where I sprained my ankle and then, unconsciously, I started walking more duck footed with my left foot to prevent further injuries. Except that has created other problems--mostly with hiking where I'm suffering from achilles tendonitis, but with cycling it meant that I was overstressing muscles toward the outside of my upper leg. Anyway, I just went to a physical therapist and learned that I need to adjust the rotation of my left foot so that it is less duck footed. I was prescribed some exercises to help me change how I walk, though for cycling, I just rotated my cleats to be neutral. I'm sure it will take a while before my muscles and brain fully catch up to the change, but it is already helping how I cycle.
In my experience, the passage from old "cage pedals" to the modern ones was simpler, you just pedalled a bit with the NEW shoe in the OLD cage pedal, and you made marks on the sole of the shoe, that were a good starting point to set the cleat in the new shoe ew pedal assembly ( But nowadays cage pedals are still used just in races like "The eroica" and other retro-memorial meetings)
for years I set my cleats toward the toes (not sure why but in my head I thought that was best). Over the last year I began to read more about moving at as far back as possible so I did that last year. The pedal stroke definitely feels better and I do feel I get more power when I dig in. Of course, from a full stop my brain is still used to trying to click in with them as they were further in front. Waiting for my brain to catch up to the positioning 🤣
One thing that is never clear in any of the bike fit videos I've seen on TH-cam is what to do when the shoes allow for extra adjustment of the cleat position. Should we also place screw nuts all the way back? For example, on some specialized shoes you can rotate the screw nuts towards the back for an extra 5mm of adjustment but it is a pita to do so, and I feel that if I did that, my cleat would end up almost in the middle of the shoe.
Btw would you say that you're more kookaburra footed or toed? 🤣 Seriously though, most regular followers probably know this already but I'm pretty new here so are you originally an Aussie or do you just like those distinctively kooky and well-named birds? I love 'em, make me want to laugh and smile every time I see and hear them.
When I turned up to Phil’s place for a bike fit I bought my new shoes with me and he fitted my cleats for me, they were still in the packet 😬 Phil looked at the way I walked first before he fitted them 👍🏼
Very interesting thank you. I’m not sure how I walk but I know I ride my motorbike with duck feet so I guess that’s my norm! I don’t think I produce enough power to have knee problems 😂
0:47 I believe the images for 'Duck footed' and 'Pigeon' are the wrong way round. Duck footed (toes pointing outwards, heels inwards) require you to point the cleat inwards to bring the heel towards the bike. Best way to remember this is to point the cleat opposite to where you want your toes to point. So when looking at the bottom of the left shoe as in the pictures shown, you want to rotate your cleat clockwise (pointed in) if you want your toes to point out. The opposite is true for pigeon toes.
I was about to comment the same thing. The cleat images are reversed for duck footed and pigeon footed.
We were testing you 🙃 You are TOTALLY right, our mistake. Thank you so much for pointing this out so will pin your comment and let people know :) Thanks again. You know your stuff!
@@KatieKookaburra Great! I have duck feet myself so that's why I noticed lol! Keep up the good work!
I was just going to say the same thing
It's disturbing that Phil makes the same mistake at about 4:07. That's a bit like a professional pianist explaining that the low keys are on the right of the keyboard.
As a beginner cyclist I’ve just got my first pair of clipless shoes and pedals, and I just knew you would have a video to help me fit them! Your channel really is a gold mine
Awwww thank you glad it helps :)
The Phil Burt Show is one of my favorites...always learning something that makes sense. Thanks to you both!
Something worth mentioning is that the feet are not always symmetrical. My right foot tips outward more than my left and my cleat placement is reflected in this. Too easy to think everything should be even from side to side, but it's not. Look at your footprints in the snow (if you have some). Great advice as always Phil. Great content as always Katie.
Same for me. Always been that way. I'm thinking it stems from how roads and sidewalks are sloped. Maybe my right foot is always sticking out more slightly to prevent me from tilting over to the right, just as a component of the total support it gives me. Fucked up if true
Just a point. You can change the way you walk, I did. I was a little duck footed which was causing me problems when runnng so my PT intructor had me think about my foot placement with each and every step, literally. That was 8 years ago when I was 57. After about a year or so I'd say, and hundreds of running miles, and also when I was walking, I found that I was planting my feet forward quite naturally. Since then it's always been something I'm conscious of and keep an eye on. Love the Phil sessions. Unlike other bike-fit experts on YT, Phil isn't into reinventing the wheel. BTW, thanks for covering MTB cleats.
I’ve had the MTB cleats set full aft for a year now … works great! That helped address some knee discomfort that I had while riding my endurance road bike. Ta very much Phil and Katie for another excellent BFF (Bike Fit Film)! 🚴♂️😀
Fantastic video. I love the way this guy thinks of bike fitting. 8 mins that every cyclist should dedicate. Cheers!!
A really helpful video Katie. As always Phil explains the reasoning behind setup extremely clearly and offers great advice on how to optimise your fit and avoid issues. You ask the right questions which gives us the answers we need. As we replace our cleats on a fairly regular basis I find it useful to refer to a photograph of the position which works for me, to ensure that I get them spot on each time they are changed.
Such brilliant timing as I’ve just purchased a new pair of road shoes and have to set my cleats up. Was going to re-read Phil’s excellent book and the section on cleats, but now got the advise from the man himself. Thanks Katie, excellent video as always.
Yassss enjoy the set up :)
I struggle to relate the cleats set up with the walking pattern: in my case the way I pedal is closer to a more active body engagement, like if you were pushing a car or a slide in the gym. In this case my feet are not in the same position when I walk, when more load is added to the pushing effort. Moreover the cycling stance is necessarily closer than when I walk and this also has an impact on the feet position. I found it easier to start with the cleats in a neutral position and then change the alignment by feel, following where the foot wants to move in that particular situation. I agree on the backward position, this is the best change I made.
NOTE: The images at 0:47 are the opposite way round - so see the pinned comment from Jay Johnson :) Thanks and sorry for the error. Cleats mess with my head because they have to be flipped over - so confusing!! haha. hopefully this clears things up. Thanks again to Jay for pointing it out. x
Oh my Goodness! Phil's speaking has become so professional and easy to understand. 👏👏👏 Take a bow, Phil. Well done. P.S. Great thoughts about cleat position too. More clapping. 👏👏👏
Thank you! 😃 Will tell him for sure! :)
Never really thought about how I walk till I saw this video, took a short walk at home and asked someone else to look as well, turns out that I'm a straight ahead type, no birds in my podiatric genetic past.
But I've always used SPD-SL yellow cleats, the ones with 6 degrees of float. I'm wondering though if I'd be better off with the blue ones that have 2 degrees either way. In decades of cycling I've had exactly zero foot, knee or other joint issues so I must have been doing something right, but I do wonder if too much float is losing me some efficiency and if I have the position just right.
In fact I just picked up a new pair of shoes, Shimano RC702 wides, and keep putting off installing cleats on them. Hopefully this video will help me get that done and over with.
Thanks as always Katie and Phil. I wanted to your last question about cleat/foot angle being positioned based on the angle one walks at vs. the angle one should walk/pedal at. I am certain that I am a very rare exception here, but I had a problem because I set up my cleats by looking at how much my feet naturally rotate. The problem is that I had a hiking accident a few years ago where I sprained my ankle and then, unconsciously, I started walking more duck footed with my left foot to prevent further injuries. Except that has created other problems--mostly with hiking where I'm suffering from achilles tendonitis, but with cycling it meant that I was overstressing muscles toward the outside of my upper leg.
Anyway, I just went to a physical therapist and learned that I need to adjust the rotation of my left foot so that it is less duck footed. I was prescribed some exercises to help me change how I walk, though for cycling, I just rotated my cleats to be neutral. I'm sure it will take a while before my muscles and brain fully catch up to the change, but it is already helping how I cycle.
In my experience, the passage from old "cage pedals" to the modern ones was simpler, you just pedalled a bit with the NEW shoe in the OLD cage pedal, and you made marks on the sole of the shoe, that were a good starting point to set the cleat in the new shoe
ew pedal assembly ( But nowadays cage pedals are still used just in races like "The eroica" and other retro-memorial meetings)
Great advice,I was just trying to sort my cleats after riding and having knee pain in right knee.😊
for years I set my cleats toward the toes (not sure why but in my head I thought that was best). Over the last year I began to read more about moving at as far back as possible so I did that last year. The pedal stroke definitely feels better and I do feel I get more power when I dig in. Of course, from a full stop my brain is still used to trying to click in with them as they were further in front. Waiting for my brain to catch up to the positioning 🤣
Hi Katie l always use them Shimano clients for years there perfect have a good Christmas takecare
I used to get a numb right foot cycling so I booked a bike fit and cleat fit and it cured the numbness in my foot.
Been using mid foot since 2010. Feels way better in TT's and long rides.
You were the OG mid foot advocate! :)
Hi, what would you recommend if your knee brushes the top tube?
Thanks keep up the good work!
One thing that is never clear in any of the bike fit videos I've seen on TH-cam is what to do when the shoes allow for extra adjustment of the cleat position. Should we also place screw nuts all the way back? For example, on some specialized shoes you can rotate the screw nuts towards the back for an extra 5mm of adjustment but it is a pita to do so, and I feel that if I did that, my cleat would end up almost in the middle of the shoe.
Plantar fascitis I found can sometimes be caused or worsened by having the cleat too far forward. You want them back.
phil's becoming a bit of a youtube sensation with the amount of shows he's smashed
Great, thanks for the tips 👍
Good tips! If you walk heels in then set cleats so you also pedal heel in. Otherwise RIP ITB!
Very useful, thanks !
Btw would you say that you're more kookaburra footed or toed? 🤣
Seriously though, most regular followers probably know this already but I'm pretty new here so are you originally an Aussie or do you just like those distinctively kooky and well-named birds? I love 'em, make me want to laugh and smile every time I see and hear them.
hahaha I love them and it was my nickname from being a kid so had to be done
@@KatieKookaburra So not the quiet and retiring type then, eh? 😉
Great free advice as always Katie & Phil. 🐦 🦆
What about if you
🎶 Walk Like An Egyptian 🎶
When I turned up to Phil’s place for a bike fit I bought my new shoes with me and he fitted my cleats for me, they were still in the packet 😬 Phil looked at the way I walked first before he fitted them 👍🏼
Moving your cleat as far back on the shoe as possible will usually require the seat height to come down a bit.
Very interesting thank you. I’m not sure how I walk but I know I ride my motorbike with duck feet so I guess that’s my norm! I don’t think I produce enough power to have knee problems 😂
Finally!😊
I moved my cleats all the way back on the road bike shoes, more comfy & about 2 kmh average speed faster ☺️
Nice! 🤩
Phil Burp 😅
The neutral in the thumbnail is ever so slightly pigeon but i'm being pedantic i know.sorry.
You know your stuff!!