I actually paid attention and moved my SPD-SLs back 18mm on my size 42 Fiziks. The shoes feel great in this position and my pedal stroke feels powerful and efficient. Thanks for posting such useful information.
I used to get terrible knee pain on long rides . Tried every thing i could as far as my dura ace pedals could do . Found some 20 mm spacers on US ebay and gave them a go . They fit on the dura ace pedals and then screw into the crank . What a God send . All My pain went away the next ride and has never come back .
I got fit by Neil about 6 months ago and this reminded me how good he is. Unfortunately he moved north, bad news for Melbourne peeps but great news for anyone on the Sunshine Coast!
Excellent video. I had very bad foot pain for years. I finally saw a podiatrist who knows cycling. He said move my cleats back. I've permanently damaged my feet from improper walking and cycling. Now my problem is 90% solved. I'm glad you advocate moving cleats back for some cyclists and debunk the joint over spindle rule.
Foot stability. 1. Walk up to an escalator and as you start to position your feet grab the rails, left and right. 2. Line up your toes on the edge of the step when it is flat just before it starts to go up. 3. Go back down and this time place the balls of your feet on the edge. 4. The third time stand mid foot. 5. Repeat without holding onto the "rail". 6. Which foot position provides the most stability? AND pay attention to the calf muscles.
I loved the biomechanics lesson. Having worked in this part of medicine, I still learned a lot. It’s important to understand the kinetic chain of forces and transfer of power, as well as, how small changes can have a big impact on performance, ankle stability and knee problems. Bravo!
i adjusted my cleats the way he was explaining to widen my feet and put them in line with my hips ,and that small amount made such a difference .he knows his stuff and great to listen too .thanks keith
This is really excellent advice. I started riding 20+ years ago and the standard was cleat directly under metatarsal. I've been riding that way for 2 decades but 10 years ago when I got into road touring and would regularly do 100+mi days back to back to back I started having knee problems. When I switched to flat pedals for convenience in touring the knee pain went away. I realized it was the foot position that was causing the knee pain. On flat pedals on naturally set the spindle maybe 25mm behind my metatarsal. On the plus side I've really developed my calves from riding with the cleats forward and can actively feel them engaged and firing on sprints and do enjoy that additional conditioning and power generation.
Cam Just wanted to say love all your vids. Your style and versatility in your content is superior and I bloody love it!! It’s always a competition for Dad (55🤫) and I (18) to watch your videos first. It just goes to show how you can tap into a wide audience age range. I essentially love it when I give dad some advice then you come out with a video saying the exact same thing. I think it’s a little frustrating on dads part that I turn out to be right some times. I’ve learnt a lot from your video and appreciate all the time and effort that goes into them ;)
I got lost in time taking in all if information...for a 16 minute video it was to short....I really enjoy this and now thinking of going to speed play....thanks for this information.
I am a beginner gravel cyclist with occasional road riding mixed in as well. I moved my SPD cleats back after watching this and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. My glutes have been sleeping 😂
Wow, right on topic. I just recently changed my shoes and attached the cleats myself. As it appears, with what you are saying in the video, too far forward. Thanks for the advice. Cheers
Thank you VERY much! Convey my thanks to this BikeFitter. What a talent in telling the story! What a knowledge! Perfectly structured! Most of the things he says I already knew, but apart from “what” he gives us “why”. Great job. Valuable addition to your already great content.
Neil really nailed it explaining Q factor and knee pain in relation to cleat placement... I've always felt like I needed a bike fit, now I know I do. Really wish Neil wasn't 8534 miles (or 13,734 km) away from me. Great video.
This guy effin ROOLZ!!! I don’t ride, but I was completely subsumed by this topic! I respect the hell outta top-flight engineers of any kind and THIS guy communicates/translates his subject matter WELL. OUTSTANDING interview & upload, guy! Take a bow! 👏👏👏👏🤘👍✌️
I saw Neill and clicked as fast as I could. His knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for these videos! My cleats are as far back as I can get them, and I wish I could get them a bit further back.
@@kevinlavery6194 Hello Kevin. What kind of cleats do you have? I have designed an adapter that allows 12-24mm of rear adjustment for SPD-SL and Look KEOS. I have just received the first batch, and love them for my climbs here in the Alps. I will start selling the adapters in my webshop in two weeks, but I need beta-testers, so I shall be happy to send you a set for free. (As long as you don't live in Antarctica)
Cam, this is brilliant!!! Loved all of it. Especially, the conclusion around the "kinetic chain". People need help understanding that poor clear position could end up causing numb hands! I feel I'm very quad dominant and I've just check my clear position. According to Neil's ballpark advice, I'm over 5mm from where I should be as a starting point!! So, I might just start adjusting over a long period to see how I feel - whilst naturally compensating in other areas. Big respect to Neil👍 He knows his stuff and seems like an affable guy. Loved his knowledge on q factor and the axle length options. Keep the good work up. If I get some spare cash, I'll be buying you (and Neil) a coffee or two☕
Dude this is the best singular video I've watched for cycling mechanics. It all makes so much god damned sense. I moved my cleat back about 3mm and on my next ride my hamstrings were on FIRE. Can not believe the difference a small change can make.
I had sore knees and tried everything from q rings, shorter cranks and different pedals. Nothing seemed to work until I started experimenting with cleat position. I had an old pair of shoes and started drilling holes until I found what worked for me. Now I drill new mounting holes in my shoes about 1 inch back from the manufacture position. I currently use speedplay pedals and have allot more stability and no pain. My advise, experiment and find what works for you.
I wasted 300 on a fit that was horrible. That was after years of fitting myself because I didn't trust anyone. I wish this fitter lived near me though because everything he said was what I tell my friends. Not only is the more aft position on the cleat better for tri athletes but also for long climbs and extended efforts like the Tour de France. The best commentary on bike fitting I have found on YT. Thanks for the upload. I would love to pick this guys brain!
Possibly the most useful cycling tip on the Internet. Who doesn't love free power! At least until that moment where we now go away, measure up our cleats and realise sadly that purely by accident we found the optimum position!
another great video! lots of upside to pushing the cleats back but the one key downside, especially for novice riders, is a greater occurrence of toe strikes on the front tire. Most can brush it off but some may be easily alarmed by it.
Okay, I have spent the last year after getting a new bike and shoes, trying to get my fit correct. turned out the whole time I just had my cleats too far forward. Thank you so much for posting this video and all the videos you've put up with this guy.
Moving my cleats back helped my knee pain. Check out yourself, feel the kneecaps when standing on your toes. You will feel how the kneecaps ( patilla ) are stressed and pressed against the inside of the knee. I had my husband extend the slots on my spd cleats to achieve this. It also reduced the leverage as I pull up on the pedal and bring it over the top of the stroke.
I have had a lot of knee pain over the years and have had a shim put in to help with a leg length discrepancy. After using the Patrocleats all the way back a full 24mm I noticed a lot of comfort riding and no loss in power. If anything I was seeing higher power numbers. I just realized when I did this I forgot to add the shim in. Less pain, better power and no shim (been there a decade). Well worth your time in trying this. I also added 165 mm cranks to equation and the two changes seem highly compatible.
Years ago I moved my cleats back on my mountain bike as I found standing over rough ground, my calves would tire. It just seemed more efficient. Now I'm going to move my cleats back a bit on my road bike. Excellent analysis.
I naturally liked the rear position because it let me get my weight onto the pedal in a more balanced manner. Moved my cleat and adapted. I'm still getting use to my for seat position forward. I've always been a sit back TT type of rider behind the back
Embarrassingly, I just discovered that the cleats on both my pairs of shoes had come loose, and shifted almost all the way forward. I had also been struggling a bit with power output over a long period. Never thought to check, but the other day I glanced at one of my shoes, and there is was. They were all in the wrong position. Now that they are back, I cannot believe how much better I am doing. I am watching this video because I would like to explore optimizing position even more if possible. Fantastic video, thanks for posting!
I saw this video and I bought some extenders for my pedals. I didn’t know they made such a thing. I feel my feet supinating as I ride for a while, so I’m thinking that is the problem. I am 51 years old, and can stand to loose a bit of weight, gained more than I wanted this winter. I don’t race, and I ride alone, and I really enjoy the ride. I will let you know how I get along with the extenders. I love your channel, and all the great info and tips you give. Thanks for everything. Francois
Brilliant discussion from someone who really knows his stuff. I just started riding, and everyone is telling me that I have to have the ball of my foot on the center of the pedal, but instinctively, from my years in bodybuilding and doing squats, I know for a fact that my maximum power output comes from planting my foot squarely on the pedal, somewhere in the center of the arch of my foot. Now that might seem like poor form to some, but I personally have more control. Plus the removal of my calf and ankle as another leaver in the equation helps me get the power down, and have more control.
Remember that it's not about maximum power output only. As he says, it's also about bringing as many muscle groups to bear on the work of turning the pedals and as you get better you should find you are not so much exerting a huge amount of force as you are exerting consistent force through more degrees of the total pedal stroke. It's about generating a high level of sustainable power.
@@errcoche I'm using muscles I didn't know I had. I love the fact that you can switch between different sets of muscle groups when others get tired. Something you can't do properly on flats.
@@kimgaugemusic That;s right Kim. In fact there was a discussion of saddles where I didn't really agree with the analysis. They were saying that ideally you sit in one place whereas I remember wanting to be able slide up and down the saddle on longer climbs in order to engage the different muscle groups ( it has been a while, only mountains in South Florida are stinking landfills ). I have been doing some cycling during lockdown and my hamstrings are making a comeback. I haven't played soccer in about 20 years now ( at 56 ) and they had shrunk down from lack of use. The important thing is that it shows I am pretty balanced in my pedaling, especially since I am just using sneakers and toe clips ( well I was until this week ).
I accidentally discovered the aft cleat position (size 46 shoes). I didn't tighten my cleats enough at first and they moved (only) under load. I let them move while riding a trainer until I felt very comfortable. I then took off my shoes leaving them attached to the pedals. I marked the cleat position while still attached. I had no idea what I was doing. Seeing this video gives me some validation for what I discovered naturally. Thank you.
Definitely agree with him with placing the cleats back to stabilize the foot. Lesser utilization of the calf muscles, which helps lower local muscle fatigue over time that is quite beneficial in triathlons. One of downsides having the cleats backward is having a toe overlap, especially for smaller riders. Some people are okay with that, while some aren’t comfortable with having that either.
Ok, I am an old guy who uses a bicycle to get around. I don't own a car. Thanks so much for this information. I realized my cleats are way too far forward. This explains a lot of issues for me. I can't wait to get out and see how some changes affect me.
I have been riding a few days with my cleat as near the arch as I can and my feet as far out as I can. Ok. This has changed my life. I just got back from a ride and a climb and my hip is not hurting. I am not competitive, just 66 years old and no car. Thanks again, you have no idea.
Yip same here , I have been going on about q factor for about 20 years , that's why I use Keywin pedals , available in minus and plus axel lengths in 3 millimeters increments up to minus 10 and up to plus 10 , they also have plate Packers for different leg length discripency
Thanks to Neil I have moved my cleats 30mm behind the 5th metatarsal and couldn't be happier with the results. Better cadance and using more of my major muscles. I iken the forward position to climbing stairs on the edge of the stairs with the front of your foot. You quickly tire the front of the quads and calf. A more rear position of the cleats is like climbing with a mid or full foot which activate the muscles differently.
Have had my cleats direct under my metatarsal for > 20 years. No issues that I'm aware of (I probably just don't know any better) but after this excellent explanation I'm gonna experiment with moving the cleats back 10mm or so. Thanks!!!
This really helped me. I'm 193 cm tall and wear a SIDI 49 shoe. I slammed the cleat on my MTB shoes as far back as possible. Huge difference in taking pressure off my quads and making me feel more comfortable on saddle.
Cheers Stuart, hopefully you caught the follow up - 75% of Cyclists Leave this Bike Fitters Clinic with a SHIM (why?) th-cam.com/video/CIFRLF0xURk/w-d-xo.html
Great info. I was too forward and getting Achilles pain over long rides. Moving the cleat back made me stronger on the climbs and got rid of the tired feet I thought was the shoe related. Thank you D
Love it. I've had two bike fits to help with knee pain and hand/foot numbness. Neither paid any attention to my cleats. I still have knee pain and hand/foot numbness
if the fit is good then the most likely next place to look is weak glut medius or vastus medialis. A couple of simple exercises and they might come right in 3 weeks. Foot numbness can usually be solved by a metatarsal button that raises the middle of the foot. Or an arch support that spreads the load over the rest of the foot. The cleat position should always be considered which questions how good your fitter was.
Haha, I just set up my first set of cleats and definitely could make some adjustments. I’ve found that a good start is setting up the cleat towards the back instead of the front
I am using 20mm pedal extenders. 3yrs of no biking just started i found that i need a wider stance eventhough im petite rider feels good and i immediately unleashed my bike fitness just for a month
I've had a fit with him in Melbourne.. Neill is one of the best!!! Changed my position after 2 lots of knee surgery. He is the main reason I can race again!!!
Nice to have this freely available! I would like to get some guidelines on how much you can drop your saddle and cockpit, is there a logic for that as well?
Having the cleats further back totally makes sense because when I am riding my MTB on flat pedals, the front edge of the pedal is roughly under my toe joint. But when I put the cleats back on the road bike maximum cadence drops a lot, which makes sense as you are effectively limiting your range of motion.
9:45 totally noticed this the first time I put my cleats back. Sprinting was NOT an option anymore, lol. The power just doesn't get through the same way.
Cleat further back also should mention the caution of front tire interference when turn at slow speed or intersections I have size 49 and clip the tire when the cleats get back.
If you can't adapt easily to a cleat change look at crank arm length as well as seat height and fore/aft positioning. Actually, all of these settings should be looked at carefully when making any adjustments. I keep a mirrored setup for saddle and post so that I can do A/B comparisons any time I make a change to cranks, pedals, stem, etc. I change the saddle position to make adaptation easier, according to my theory, but I also test indoors with the unchanged or "control" setup and then test outside on easy rides. I can then slowly move back to my standard setup if/when/as it seems appropriate. Also, before starting any of this, it's a great idea to consult a medically-certified podiatrist. Try out some orthotics even if you only try them in your "walking around" shoes. Once you have a sense of those factors you will make better decisions as discussed here. If you look only at "bike hardware" you might be missing out on a chance to solve important root problems. Also, he mentioned "the gut" and its effect on position and apparent form. Changing "q factor" instead of raising the stem and losing that gut is not what I'd suggest. OTOH, Froome doesn't have a gut problem but does have flailing knees. These are obviously very complicated questions and don't focus entirely on the hardware if you have never had your own skeleton evaluated by an MD. Just as it should be obvious that cyclists should consult with cardiologists for periodic checkups to catch early problems (most likely you'll simple learn the importance of proper rest periods) you should likewise make sure you get some kind of "medical workup" and diagnostics before you try to solve problems with radical equipment changes. One last thing is that cog choices matter, day to day. Some of these stress problems are caused by fatalistic views on cog choices that in my view are caused by the "watts" cult that doesn't seem to understand that "wattage" is a product of force and velocity. A seemingly trivial change in cadence within a controlled range of power can make a huge difference in how you stress your bones and tissue. Those things matter. For me, I sometimes strain myself in the hills when I use wide ratio cogs because I go from spinning to grinding too often if I'm changing pace a lot (in "Pyrenean" style climbs) if I use the OEM 11-30 cassette that goes 21-24-27-30. An 11-28 is much better for me and I'm even looking at Campy cogsets just to get closer gears because I'd rather have a 12-27 than any of the standard Shimano cassettes. The video advice is excellent but never forget that all of these doctrines require regular synthesis (with other established settings and doctrines) and continuous review to see how you're adapting to the changes. That's what "marginal gains" is all about. (It's not really about micro-dosing EPO and salbutamol, OK?)
Brilliant video ! Had an expensive video bike fit a few years back and the tech adjusted my cleats which eliminated outer foot pain I had experienced for the previous 10 years !
Love reducing the q factor on my bikes. Actually used a really old Shimano crankset before what they called low profile with a newer bracket, reduced the q quite a bit.
Several years ago I ended up placing the cleats far back out of necessity because of my problems with hot feet (especially the left one). It was during a period when I did lots of climbing. Now I don't climb so much, my hot feet problem is gone but I will keep the cleats in the back. It feels nice and natural now.
That was fascinating! I've struggled with foot issues in the past, and I'm now trying to offset what might be longer term repetitive issues in my hips, lower back and quads. And I think the discussion on these-to-side and fore and aft might be a clue to point me toward a solution. Aside from that personal stuff, I though the universal Q-factor thing was really wild.. Thank you for such a great video!
Thanks both for sharing this extremely useful info. I hope you can do more like it. I would be interested to know how Neill finds the optimum q-factor, whether is this from some method of hip-width measurement, trial-and-error from watching leg/knee movement from behind, or some other method. Neill should consider doing a full video series like this on all the aspects of bike fit for those of use who can't get to him in person, even if it was a paid-for private series. It's so refreshing and useful when someone understands something like this from first principles - something unfortunately especially rare in the sport of cycling.
Lower your seatpost as well..;) Welcome to the club! It does wonders. I’m after only a couple of weeks I can literally feel my harmstring and gluts growing larger. I feel more efficient and relaxed.
Good stuff ! It will be interesting to know how to deal with feet size discrepancy too. Me as an example, got 5mm differences in ball joint locations between left and right foot
That’s a smart dude right there. I’d love to watch an interview w/him on crank length nuances nobody ever seems to pay attention to. Namely, 170mm versus 172.5mm Thanks Cam. Great interview brah.
Nice one mate - see here; th-cam.com/video/siFUTKpPK6Q/w-d-xo.html I just changed my cranks the other day, so a major piece is coming on the channel soon
This has been so helpful, had a bike fit but continued to have problems with my knees (pain in the patella and side of the patella). Adjusted the cleat position way back for todays ride and bam, no pain. So I will try this out for a few rides and see if that really was the perfect solution. Keep these videos going, if they keep on giving us content like this I will keep on recommending them to my friends.
I would add that moving my cleats back as far as possible also solved my numb toe issue, which is a benefit that he didn't mention! I have enormous (47) feet so I'm in the 20mm setback minimum he suggested. I'm not even sure I can get it on my current (look) cleats with my Shimano shoes due to the size and where the bolt holes are.
I have used Speedplay for years - love them. I also have used the cleat in the rear position for years as well. Can’t remember the source of the information, but I changed it on the basis that it helps to more fully engage your calves and hamstrings so you don’t overload your quads. Very happy
After watching this I measured my natural stance, 36cm my pedals are 25cm, I have now purchased pedal extensions, I tried moving my cleats to the inside of the shoe and my foot went numb. Thanks.
Sat glued to this , to give this amount of professional information for free is just amazing , Thank you it really is Appreciated.
Check out James, Bikefit Tuesdays, in Francis Cade channel. More free advice!
Exactly what I was thinking. This guy is incredibly helpful
I could listen to Neill talk for hours. Bring him back often, Cam!
Neil is the best!
My comment!
Jeez. That man knows is s***. I've listen to a lot of stuff and this is the most structured and informed discussion I've found about it.
How do you know he's correct, if you don't know?
@@notreally2406 He is correct! Trust me ;-)
Although he uses oval rings so not so sure...
He's bloody brilliant. I totally nerded out listening to him and I'm a super novice rider.
I actually paid attention and moved my SPD-SLs back 18mm on my size 42 Fiziks. The shoes feel great in this position and my pedal stroke feels powerful and efficient. Thanks for posting such useful information.
нщг speak about road shoes or MTB?
@@norwegiantroll2480 He said SPD-SL, which are the road cleats, so I think we can assume road shoes.
Just moved my speedplay cleats all the way back. Instantly felt the difference, heaps better and feels much more comfortable. Brilliant advice 👍
I used to get terrible knee pain on long rides . Tried every thing i could as far as my dura ace pedals could do . Found some 20 mm spacers on US ebay and gave them a go . They fit on the dura ace pedals and then screw into the crank . What a God send . All My pain went away the next ride and has never come back .
I got fit by Neil about 6 months ago and this reminded me how good he is. Unfortunately he moved north, bad news for Melbourne peeps but great news for anyone on the Sunshine Coast!
Excellent video. I had very bad foot pain for years. I finally saw a podiatrist who knows cycling. He said move my cleats back. I've permanently damaged my feet from improper walking and cycling. Now my problem is 90% solved. I'm glad you advocate moving cleats back for some cyclists and debunk the joint over spindle rule.
I have NEVER learnt more about this subject!!! Thanks Cam and Neill
Foot stability. 1. Walk up to an escalator and as you start to position your feet grab the rails, left and right.
2. Line up your toes on the edge of the step when it is flat just before it starts to go up.
3. Go back down and this time place the balls of your feet on the edge.
4. The third time stand mid foot.
5. Repeat without holding onto the "rail".
6. Which foot position provides the most stability? AND pay attention to the calf muscles.
What's the Q-factor of an escalator?
Exactly what I needed, quads were doing all the work and minor knee pain. Will test this tomorrow. subbed.
I loved the biomechanics lesson. Having worked in this part of medicine, I still learned a lot. It’s important to understand the kinetic chain of forces and transfer of power, as well as, how small changes can have a big impact on performance, ankle stability and knee problems. Bravo!
i adjusted my cleats the way he was explaining to widen my feet and put them in line with my hips ,and that small amount made such a difference .he knows his stuff and great to listen too .thanks keith
This is really excellent advice. I started riding 20+ years ago and the standard was cleat directly under metatarsal. I've been riding that way for 2 decades but 10 years ago when I got into road touring and would regularly do 100+mi days back to back to back I started having knee problems. When I switched to flat pedals for convenience in touring the knee pain went away. I realized it was the foot position that was causing the knee pain. On flat pedals on naturally set the spindle maybe 25mm behind my metatarsal. On the plus side I've really developed my calves from riding with the cleats forward and can actively feel them engaged and firing on sprints and do enjoy that additional conditioning and power generation.
Cam Just wanted to say love all your vids. Your style and versatility in your content is superior and I bloody love it!! It’s always a competition for Dad (55🤫) and I (18) to watch your videos first. It just goes to show how you can tap into a wide audience age range. I essentially love it when I give dad some advice then you come out with a video saying the exact same thing. I think it’s a little frustrating on dads part that I turn out to be right some times. I’ve learnt a lot from your video and appreciate all the time and effort that goes into them ;)
haha! Telling dad how it is. Love it Alex and thanks for sharing. Cam
I got lost in time taking in all if information...for a 16 minute video it was to short....I really enjoy this and now thinking of going to speed play....thanks for this information.
This guy is really thorough and enlightening
He’s not only so knowledgeable but also so eloquent! Great vid!!
Oh wow, life changer. Just moved my cleats back, back pain and knee pain went away! Thanks for the content! I can comfirm, size 46 foot 20mm, bang on!
I am a beginner gravel cyclist with occasional road riding mixed in as well. I moved my SPD cleats back after watching this and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. My glutes have been sleeping 😂
Wow, right on topic. I just recently changed my shoes and attached the cleats myself. As it appears, with what you are saying in the video, too far forward. Thanks for the advice. Cheers
Thank you VERY much!
Convey my thanks to this BikeFitter.
What a talent in telling the story!
What a knowledge!
Perfectly structured!
Most of the things he says I already knew, but apart from “what” he gives us “why”. Great job.
Valuable addition to your already great content.
Neil really nailed it explaining Q factor and knee pain in relation to cleat placement... I've always felt like I needed a bike fit, now I know I do. Really wish Neil wasn't 8534 miles (or 13,734 km) away from me. Great video.
This guy effin ROOLZ!!! I don’t ride, but I was completely subsumed by this topic! I respect the hell outta top-flight engineers of any kind and THIS guy communicates/translates his subject matter WELL.
OUTSTANDING interview & upload, guy! Take a bow! 👏👏👏👏🤘👍✌️
I saw Neill and clicked as fast as I could. His knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for these videos! My cleats are as far back as I can get them, and I wish I could get them a bit further back.
Kevin Lavery , if u have speedplay pedals, they make an adapter plate that allows 14mm of rear adjustment.
@@user-ys6hl1uy1t I do not have speedplays, but that's good to know. That may have to be my next upgrade.
@@kevinlavery6194 Hello Kevin. What kind of cleats do you have? I have designed an adapter that allows 12-24mm of rear adjustment for SPD-SL and Look KEOS. I have just received the first batch, and love them for my climbs here in the Alps. I will start selling the adapters in my webshop in two weeks, but I need beta-testers, so I shall be happy to send you a set for free. (As long as you don't live in Antarctica)
Cleat goes backward means foot is going forward right?
@@nielserikstrup I'd definitely be interested mate 👍🏼
Cam, this is brilliant!!! Loved all of it. Especially, the conclusion around the "kinetic chain". People need help understanding that poor clear position could end up causing numb hands!
I feel I'm very quad dominant and I've just check my clear position. According to Neil's ballpark advice, I'm over 5mm from where I should be as a starting point!! So, I might just start adjusting over a long period to see how I feel - whilst naturally compensating in other areas.
Big respect to Neil👍 He knows his stuff and seems like an affable guy. Loved his knowledge on q factor and the axle length options.
Keep the good work up. If I get some spare cash, I'll be buying you (and Neil) a coffee or two☕
Dude this is the best singular video I've watched for cycling mechanics. It all makes so much god damned sense. I moved my cleat back about 3mm and on my next ride my hamstrings were on FIRE. Can not believe the difference a small change can make.
Awesome, thanks for sharing Colin.
I had sore knees and tried everything from q rings, shorter cranks and different pedals. Nothing seemed to work until I started experimenting with cleat position. I had an old pair of shoes and started drilling holes until I found what worked for me. Now I drill new mounting holes in my shoes about 1 inch back from the manufacture position. I currently use speedplay pedals and have allot more stability and no pain. My advise, experiment and find what works for you.
I wasted 300 on a fit that was horrible. That was after years of fitting myself because I didn't trust anyone. I wish this fitter lived near me though because everything he said was what I tell my friends. Not only is the more aft position on the cleat better for tri athletes but also for long climbs and extended efforts like the Tour de France. The best commentary on bike fitting I have found on YT. Thanks for the upload. I would love to pick this guys brain!
Possibly the most useful cycling tip on the Internet. Who doesn't love free power! At least until that moment where we now go away, measure up our cleats and realise sadly that purely by accident we found the optimum position!
Having struggled with fit over the years and Shimano cleat position - this is super informative many thanks for producing this -
another great video! lots of upside to pushing the cleats back but the one key downside, especially for novice riders, is a greater occurrence of toe strikes on the front tire. Most can brush it off but some may be easily alarmed by it.
Okay, I have spent the last year after getting a new bike and shoes, trying to get my fit correct. turned out the whole time I just had my cleats too far forward. Thank you so much for posting this video and all the videos you've put up with this guy.
brilliant explanation, am nursing my left knee doing 300km in a day on road bike.....most of my questions about cleat positions been answered 👍
Moving my cleats back helped my knee pain. Check out yourself, feel the kneecaps when standing on your toes. You will feel how the kneecaps ( patilla ) are stressed and pressed against the inside of the knee. I had my husband extend the slots on my spd cleats to achieve this. It also reduced the leverage as I pull up on the pedal and bring it over the top of the stroke.
Thanks for sharing on the thread
I have had a lot of knee pain over the years and have had a shim put in to help with a leg length discrepancy. After using the Patrocleats all the way back a full 24mm I noticed a lot of comfort riding and no loss in power. If anything I was seeing higher power numbers. I just realized when I did this I forgot to add the shim in. Less pain, better power and no shim (been there a decade). Well worth your time in trying this.
I also added 165 mm cranks to equation and the two changes seem highly compatible.
Years ago I moved my cleats back on my mountain bike as I found standing over rough ground, my calves would tire. It just seemed more efficient. Now I'm going to move my cleats back a bit on my road bike. Excellent analysis.
"Synergistically" word of the day 👍
I naturally liked the rear position because it let me get my weight onto the pedal in a more balanced manner.
Moved my cleat and adapted. I'm still getting use to my for seat position forward. I've always been a sit back TT type of rider behind the back
Man I love the videos with Neil. He's amazingly knowledgeable and hilarious too
Embarrassingly, I just discovered that the cleats on both my pairs of shoes had come loose, and shifted almost all the way forward. I had also been struggling a bit with power output over a long period. Never thought to check, but the other day I glanced at one of my shoes, and there is was. They were all in the wrong position. Now that they are back, I cannot believe how much better I am doing. I am watching this video because I would like to explore optimizing position even more if possible. Fantastic video, thanks for posting!
Such an informative video on cleat position I had to watch again 1 year later!
I saw this video and I bought some extenders for my pedals. I didn’t know they made such a thing. I feel my feet supinating as I ride for a while, so I’m thinking that is the problem. I am 51 years old, and can stand to loose a bit of weight, gained more than I wanted this winter. I don’t race, and I ride alone, and I really enjoy the ride. I will let you know how I get along with the extenders. I love your channel, and all the great info and tips you give. Thanks for everything.
Francois
just love this Neill guy
When you listen to Neil for a few minutes you can tell he knows his onions. Very interesting discussion.
Tim Butler ...
Not only do I wholly concur w your take, I’ll now be planting “knows his onions” in my ‘Garden of Epic Idioms.’ Thanks, Butler! ✌️😄
Brilliant discussion from someone who really knows his stuff. I just started riding, and everyone is telling me that I have to have the ball of my foot on the center of the pedal, but instinctively, from my years in bodybuilding and doing squats, I know for a fact that my maximum power output comes from planting my foot squarely on the pedal, somewhere in the center of the arch of my foot. Now that might seem like poor form to some, but I personally have more control. Plus the removal of my calf and ankle as another leaver in the equation helps me get the power down, and have more control.
Remember that it's not about maximum power output only. As he says, it's also about bringing as many muscle groups to bear on the work of turning the pedals and as you get better you should find you are not so much exerting a huge amount of force as you are exerting consistent force through more degrees of the total pedal stroke. It's about generating a high level of sustainable power.
@@errcoche I'm using muscles I didn't know I had. I love the fact that you can switch between different sets of muscle groups when others get tired. Something you can't do properly on flats.
@@kimgaugemusic That;s right Kim. In fact there was a discussion of saddles where I didn't really agree with the analysis. They were saying that ideally you sit in one place whereas I remember wanting to be able slide up and down the saddle on longer climbs in order to engage the different muscle groups ( it has been a while, only mountains in South Florida are stinking landfills ). I have been doing some cycling during lockdown and my hamstrings are making a comeback. I haven't played soccer in about 20 years now ( at 56 ) and they had shrunk down from lack of use. The important thing is that it shows I am pretty balanced in my pedaling, especially since I am just using sneakers and toe clips ( well I was until this week ).
@@errcoche I'm constantly shifting position on my saddle. Apparently Chris Froome moves all over the place.
@@kimgaugemusic They call him, Froome, The Washing Machine. I'm not convinced he's doing it on purpose, or for that matter, is even aware.
I accidentally discovered the aft cleat position (size 46 shoes). I didn't tighten my cleats enough at first and they moved (only) under load. I let them move while riding a trainer until I felt very comfortable. I then took off my shoes leaving them attached to the pedals. I marked the cleat position while still attached. I had no idea what I was doing. Seeing this video gives me some validation for what I discovered naturally. Thank you.
Definitely agree with him with placing the cleats back to stabilize the foot. Lesser utilization of the calf muscles, which helps lower local muscle fatigue over time that is quite beneficial in triathlons.
One of downsides having the cleats backward is having a toe overlap, especially for smaller riders. Some people are okay with that, while some aren’t comfortable with having that either.
Ok, I am an old guy who uses a bicycle to get around. I don't own a car. Thanks so much for this information. I realized my cleats are way too far forward. This explains a lot of issues for me. I can't wait to get out and see how some changes affect me.
I have been riding a few days with my cleat as near the arch as I can and my feet as far out as I can. Ok. This has changed my life. I just got back from a ride and a climb and my hip is not hurting. I am not competitive, just 66 years old and no car. Thanks again, you have no idea.
Yip same here , I have been going on about q factor for about 20 years , that's why I use Keywin pedals , available in minus and plus axel lengths in 3 millimeters increments up to minus 10 and up to plus 10 , they also have plate Packers for different leg length discripency
Thanks to Neil I have moved my cleats 30mm behind the 5th metatarsal and couldn't be happier with the results. Better cadance and using more of my major muscles. I iken the forward position to climbing stairs on the edge of the stairs with the front of your foot. You quickly tire the front of the quads and calf. A more rear position of the cleats is like climbing with a mid or full foot which activate the muscles differently.
Awesome Jimmy, thanks for sharing
@@CamNicholls what about sprinting power? If You move cleats too far backwards You loose some sprinting power???
Massively intelligent and well spoken. Pure gold!
Have had my cleats direct under my metatarsal for > 20 years. No issues that I'm aware of (I probably just don't know any better) but after this excellent explanation I'm gonna experiment with moving the cleats back 10mm or so. Thanks!!!
This really helped me. I'm 193 cm tall and wear a SIDI 49 shoe. I slammed the cleat on my MTB shoes as far back as possible. Huge difference in taking pressure off my quads and making me feel more comfortable on saddle.
Superb - more from this chap please - he is fantastic
Cheers Stuart, hopefully you caught the follow up - 75% of Cyclists Leave this Bike Fitters Clinic with a SHIM (why?) th-cam.com/video/CIFRLF0xURk/w-d-xo.html
Great info. I was too forward and getting Achilles pain over long rides. Moving the cleat back made me stronger on the climbs and got rid of the tired feet I thought was the shoe related. Thank you D
Love it. I've had two bike fits to help with knee pain and hand/foot numbness. Neither paid any attention to my cleats. I still have knee pain and hand/foot numbness
if the fit is good then the most likely next place to look is weak glut medius or vastus medialis. A couple of simple exercises and they might come right in 3 weeks. Foot numbness can usually be solved by a metatarsal button that raises the middle of the foot. Or an arch support that spreads the load over the rest of the foot. The cleat position should always be considered which questions how good your fitter was.
Haha, I just set up my first set of cleats and definitely could make some adjustments. I’ve found that a good start is setting up the cleat towards the back instead of the front
I am using 20mm pedal extenders. 3yrs of no biking just started i found that i need a wider stance eventhough im petite rider feels good and i immediately unleashed my bike fitness just for a month
I had a bike fit by Neil recently. He was incredibly thorough and produced great results for me!
Thanks for sharing mate
@@CamNicholls no worries. Love your work 👍
Just watched this, slammed my cleats back, and immediately felt better hamstring engagement. Muchas gracias.
Yep.
I've had a fit with him in Melbourne.. Neill is one of the best!!! Changed my position after 2 lots of knee surgery. He is the main reason I can race again!!!
Awesome Peter, thanks for sharing.
16:03 the hallelujah moment for me. So plainly explained, thank you.
Nice to have this freely available!
I would like to get some guidelines on how much you can drop your saddle and cockpit, is there a logic for that as well?
Jolly good Mate and Now I am moving my cleats back a lil bit since I been using The Lemond Further Forward for 40 years and now my back is hurting!!
Very interesting video. I like this guy. It must be great to get a bike fit with him he has so much knowledge to share. Thanks for sharing with us.
Absolutely, he knows his stuff, and perhaps more importantly, can articulate it very well! A great combo for TH-cam! Cam
Having the cleats further back totally makes sense because when I am riding my MTB on flat pedals, the front edge of the pedal is roughly under my toe joint. But when I put the cleats back on the road bike maximum cadence drops a lot, which makes sense as you are effectively limiting your range of motion.
Brilliant - extremely informative. Love watching your clips 👍.
Had a fit between the last video and this one. He solved my problems. Very happy.
9:45 totally noticed this the first time I put my cleats back. Sprinting was NOT an option anymore, lol. The power just doesn't get through the same way.
Super interesting....having wide feet I always struggle with cleat placement and shoe fit.
Cleat further back also should mention the caution of front tire interference when turn at slow speed or intersections I have size 49 and clip the tire when the cleats get back.
Thanks for sharing Shawn
This is very helpful to understand the relationship between my body and my bike. Thank you.
Cleat back, lined up staight ahead, seat all the way forward. I figured that out over the years. Also, 6 degrees of float.
If you can't adapt easily to a cleat change look at crank arm length as well as seat height and fore/aft positioning. Actually, all of these settings should be looked at carefully when making any adjustments. I keep a mirrored setup for saddle and post so that I can do A/B comparisons any time I make a change to cranks, pedals, stem, etc. I change the saddle position to make adaptation easier, according to my theory, but I also test indoors with the unchanged or "control" setup and then test outside on easy rides. I can then slowly move back to my standard setup if/when/as it seems appropriate.
Also, before starting any of this, it's a great idea to consult a medically-certified podiatrist. Try out some orthotics even if you only try them in your "walking around" shoes. Once you have a sense of those factors you will make better decisions as discussed here. If you look only at "bike hardware" you might be missing out on a chance to solve important root problems. Also, he mentioned "the gut" and its effect on position and apparent form. Changing "q factor" instead of raising the stem and losing that gut is not what I'd suggest. OTOH, Froome doesn't have a gut problem but does have flailing knees.
These are obviously very complicated questions and don't focus entirely on the hardware if you have never had your own skeleton evaluated by an MD. Just as it should be obvious that cyclists should consult with cardiologists for periodic checkups to catch early problems (most likely you'll simple learn the importance of proper rest periods) you should likewise make sure you get some kind of "medical workup" and diagnostics before you try to solve problems with radical equipment changes.
One last thing is that cog choices matter, day to day. Some of these stress problems are caused by fatalistic views on cog choices that in my view are caused by the "watts" cult that doesn't seem to understand that "wattage" is a product of force and velocity. A seemingly trivial change in cadence within a controlled range of power can make a huge difference in how you stress your bones and tissue. Those things matter. For me, I sometimes strain myself in the hills when I use wide ratio cogs because I go from spinning to grinding too often if I'm changing pace a lot (in "Pyrenean" style climbs) if I use the OEM 11-30 cassette that goes 21-24-27-30. An 11-28 is much better for me and I'm even looking at Campy cogsets just to get closer gears because I'd rather have a 12-27 than any of the standard Shimano cassettes.
The video advice is excellent but never forget that all of these doctrines require regular synthesis (with other established settings and doctrines) and continuous review to see how you're adapting to the changes. That's what "marginal gains" is all about. (It's not really about micro-dosing EPO and salbutamol, OK?)
That is why I use a standard metal pedal and use normal sneakers. I can change the position at any time during the rides.
free money! My cleats were waaaay back. set them properly and watts goes up 5% on my benchmark zwift sprint section vs session last week. thanks
How good are both of these guys !!!! Well done!
Cycling is an efficiency sport! That's my takeaway. Thank you.
Can’t give you enough ‘likes’ for all these series of content.... great
Cheers Hector
Brilliant video ! Had an expensive video bike fit a few years back and the tech adjusted my cleats which eliminated outer foot pain I had experienced for the previous 10 years !
Love reducing the q factor on my bikes. Actually used a really old Shimano crankset before what they called low profile with a newer bracket, reduced the q quite a bit.
Another Cam pedal slam. This guy is a beaut. Cam, your vids are the best. Chapeau from the UK bro
Cheers Adam 👍
Several years ago I ended up placing the cleats far back out of necessity because of my problems with hot feet (especially the left one). It was during a period when I did lots of climbing. Now I don't climb so much, my hot feet problem is gone but I will keep the cleats in the back. It feels nice and natural now.
Thanks for sharing Dali
That was fascinating! I've struggled with foot issues in the past, and I'm now trying to offset what might be longer term repetitive issues in my hips, lower back and quads. And I think the discussion on these-to-side and fore and aft might be a clue to point me toward a solution. Aside from that personal stuff, I though the universal Q-factor thing was really wild.. Thank you for such a great video!
Neill is brilliant! Really enjoyed his discussion of Q factor.
A couple of millimetres inboard and no more knee pain. My right knee is very grateful 😀
Thanks both for sharing this extremely useful info. I hope you can do more like it. I would be interested to know how Neill finds the optimum q-factor, whether is this from some method of hip-width measurement, trial-and-error from watching leg/knee movement from behind, or some other method.
Neill should consider doing a full video series like this on all the aspects of bike fit for those of use who can't get to him in person, even if it was a paid-for private series. It's so refreshing and useful when someone understands something like this from first principles - something unfortunately especially rare in the sport of cycling.
Moving my cleats back now...
Lower your seatpost as well..;)
Welcome to the club! It does wonders.
I’m after only a couple of weeks I can literally feel my harmstring and gluts growing larger.
I feel more efficient and relaxed.
Adam Kubiak has
My cleats won't go far enough back 🤷♂️
@@jakethesnake1976 Same problem, cleat max back yet that foot bone still further back than the centre of pedal spindle
This is absolutely amazing information. My head is spinning (in a good way) as a reasonably new rider. It gives me a lot to think about.
Good stuff ! It will be interesting to know how to deal with feet size discrepancy too. Me as an example, got 5mm differences in ball joint locations between left and right foot
That’s a smart dude right there. I’d love to watch an interview w/him on crank length nuances nobody ever seems to pay attention to. Namely, 170mm versus 172.5mm Thanks Cam. Great interview brah.
Nice one mate - see here; th-cam.com/video/siFUTKpPK6Q/w-d-xo.html I just changed my cranks the other day, so a major piece is coming on the channel soon
Thank you brother!
I wish I was in Australia so I could book a fitting with this guy! Amazing content.
This has been so helpful, had a bike fit but continued to have problems with my knees (pain in the patella and side of the patella). Adjusted the cleat position way back for todays ride and bam, no pain. So I will try this out for a few rides and see if that really was the perfect solution.
Keep these videos going, if they keep on giving us content like this I will keep on recommending them to my friends.
Love it Cam - you are getting top quality speakers on your channel
I would add that moving my cleats back as far as possible also solved my numb toe issue, which is a benefit that he didn't mention! I have enormous (47) feet so I'm in the 20mm setback minimum he suggested. I'm not even sure I can get it on my current (look) cleats with my Shimano shoes due to the size and where the bolt holes are.
I can’t believe I paid so much for a pro fit and still am not satisfied. This is great information
Video was worth a watch for that ferrule taped to the metatarsal joint trick alone. Thanks
I have used Speedplay for years - love them. I also have used the cleat in the rear position for years as well. Can’t remember the source of the information, but I changed it on the basis that it helps to more fully engage your calves and hamstrings so you don’t overload your quads. Very happy
After watching this I measured my natural stance, 36cm my pedals are 25cm, I have now purchased pedal extensions, I tried moving my cleats to the inside of the shoe and my foot went numb. Thanks.