I wasted 300 on a fit that was horrible. That was after years of fitting myself because I didn't trust anyone. I wish this fitter lived near me though because everything he said was what I tell my friends. Not only is the more aft position on the cleat better for tri athletes but also for long climbs and extended efforts like the Tour de France. The best commentary on bike fitting I have found on YT. Thanks for the upload. I would love to pick this guys brain!
Be careful of buying the extended axle dura ace pedals, they have a shorter than standard axle to begin with so if you buy the +4mm version they are then just standard length, better to buy the Ultegra +4mm pedals instead.
I actually paid attention and moved my SPD-SLs back 18mm on my size 42 Fiziks. The shoes feel great in this position and my pedal stroke feels powerful and efficient. Thanks for posting such useful information.
Cam Just wanted to say love all your vids. Your style and versatility in your content is superior and I bloody love it!! It’s always a competition for Dad (55🤫) and I (18) to watch your videos first. It just goes to show how you can tap into a wide audience age range. I essentially love it when I give dad some advice then you come out with a video saying the exact same thing. I think it’s a little frustrating on dads part that I turn out to be right some times. I’ve learnt a lot from your video and appreciate all the time and effort that goes into them ;)
Foot stability. 1. Walk up to an escalator and as you start to position your feet grab the rails, left and right. 2. Line up your toes on the edge of the step when it is flat just before it starts to go up. 3. Go back down and this time place the balls of your feet on the edge. 4. The third time stand mid foot. 5. Repeat without holding onto the "rail". 6. Which foot position provides the most stability? AND pay attention to the calf muscles.
I got fit by Neil about 6 months ago and this reminded me how good he is. Unfortunately he moved north, bad news for Melbourne peeps but great news for anyone on the Sunshine Coast!
Wow, right on topic. I just recently changed my shoes and attached the cleats myself. As it appears, with what you are saying in the video, too far forward. Thanks for the advice. Cheers
i recently change a bit with my bike setup. lower the saddle height around 3mm, and change shoe from fizik to shimano rc5. then place the cleat as back as possible. however i feel strange after few rides. my calf muscles feel dead much faster than quad. i think i don't feel the quad at all. any thought?
Thank you VERY much! Convey my thanks to this BikeFitter. What a talent in telling the story! What a knowledge! Perfectly structured! Most of the things he says I already knew, but apart from “what” he gives us “why”. Great job. Valuable addition to your already great content.
Cam, this is brilliant!!! Loved all of it. Especially, the conclusion around the "kinetic chain". People need help understanding that poor clear position could end up causing numb hands! I feel I'm very quad dominant and I've just check my clear position. According to Neil's ballpark advice, I'm over 5mm from where I should be as a starting point!! So, I might just start adjusting over a long period to see how I feel - whilst naturally compensating in other areas. Big respect to Neil👍 He knows his stuff and seems like an affable guy. Loved his knowledge on q factor and the axle length options. Keep the good work up. If I get some spare cash, I'll be buying you (and Neil) a coffee or two☕
I got lost in time taking in all if information...for a 16 minute video it was to short....I really enjoy this and now thinking of going to speed play....thanks for this information.
Lower your seatpost as well..;) Welcome to the club! It does wonders. I’m after only a couple of weeks I can literally feel my harmstring and gluts growing larger. I feel more efficient and relaxed.
I loved the biomechanics lesson. Having worked in this part of medicine, I still learned a lot. It’s important to understand the kinetic chain of forces and transfer of power, as well as, how small changes can have a big impact on performance, ankle stability and knee problems. Bravo!
I had sore knees and tried everything from q rings, shorter cranks and different pedals. Nothing seemed to work until I started experimenting with cleat position. I had an old pair of shoes and started drilling holes until I found what worked for me. Now I drill new mounting holes in my shoes about 1 inch back from the manufacture position. I currently use speedplay pedals and have allot more stability and no pain. My advise, experiment and find what works for you.
another great video! lots of upside to pushing the cleats back but the one key downside, especially for novice riders, is a greater occurrence of toe strikes on the front tire. Most can brush it off but some may be easily alarmed by it.
Is there a way with some sort of calipers to measure the distance between the iliac crests to be able to apply some sort of formula to calculate the correct “Q factor ? Great videos , very informative in a easily digestible manner . Excellent !
Good stuff ! It will be interesting to know how to deal with feet size discrepancy too. Me as an example, got 5mm differences in ball joint locations between left and right foot
I saw Neill and clicked as fast as I could. His knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for these videos! My cleats are as far back as I can get them, and I wish I could get them a bit further back.
@@kevinlavery6194 Hello Kevin. What kind of cleats do you have? I have designed an adapter that allows 12-24mm of rear adjustment for SPD-SL and Look KEOS. I have just received the first batch, and love them for my climbs here in the Alps. I will start selling the adapters in my webshop in two weeks, but I need beta-testers, so I shall be happy to send you a set for free. (As long as you don't live in Antarctica)
Cam, First Question how can one find out how wide the pelvis REALLY is? i mean, you can measure the sit bones for the saddle and the outside of the hips, but surely the length of the leg makes a diference? so if one is 193cm tall, inside 94cm and hip width of 38cm ( Lineal not circumference)what would the recomended Q factor be? i only heard about shimano, speedplay or look. i would like to hear about TIME which is all i use (my knees like them) I used the Impacts which have a bigger surface area over the RXS and haven't used the new ProX Question2: how much of a Myth is the pedal interface area ( Contact surface) as power transfer. thanks Mark
That was fascinating! I've struggled with foot issues in the past, and I'm now trying to offset what might be longer term repetitive issues in my hips, lower back and quads. And I think the discussion on these-to-side and fore and aft might be a clue to point me toward a solution. Aside from that personal stuff, I though the universal Q-factor thing was really wild.. Thank you for such a great video!
Is there any rule of thumb by how much one should lower the saddle height when moving the cleat behind the ball of one's foot (e.g. if moving the cleat 20mm behind the metatarsophalangeal joint, how much seat lowering is required)? Or is it more of a personal thing? I reckon that moving the cleat back might also require moving the seat forward a bit, or am I right?
Moving my cleats back helped my knee pain. Check out yourself, feel the kneecaps when standing on your toes. You will feel how the kneecaps ( patilla ) are stressed and pressed against the inside of the knee. I had my husband extend the slots on my spd cleats to achieve this. It also reduced the leverage as I pull up on the pedal and bring it over the top of the stroke.
I've really enjoyed the 2 videos with Neil, and looking for the next ones! Riding for a couple years and never had a fit, but once this Covid thing is over plan on going to a Steve Hogg trained fitter in my country.
Thanks both for sharing this extremely useful info. I hope you can do more like it. I would be interested to know how Neill finds the optimum q-factor, whether is this from some method of hip-width measurement, trial-and-error from watching leg/knee movement from behind, or some other method. Neill should consider doing a full video series like this on all the aspects of bike fit for those of use who can't get to him in person, even if it was a paid-for private series. It's so refreshing and useful when someone understands something like this from first principles - something unfortunately especially rare in the sport of cycling.
I am a beginner gravel cyclist with occasional road riding mixed in as well. I moved my SPD cleats back after watching this and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. My glutes have been sleeping 😂
Cleat further back also should mention the caution of front tire interference when turn at slow speed or intersections I have size 49 and clip the tire when the cleats get back.
I used to get terrible knee pain on long rides . Tried every thing i could as far as my dura ace pedals could do . Found some 20 mm spacers on US ebay and gave them a go . They fit on the dura ace pedals and then screw into the crank . What a God send . All My pain went away the next ride and has never come back .
Nice to have this freely available! I would like to get some guidelines on how much you can drop your saddle and cockpit, is there a logic for that as well?
Brilliant discussion from someone who really knows his stuff. I just started riding, and everyone is telling me that I have to have the ball of my foot on the center of the pedal, but instinctively, from my years in bodybuilding and doing squats, I know for a fact that my maximum power output comes from planting my foot squarely on the pedal, somewhere in the center of the arch of my foot. Now that might seem like poor form to some, but I personally have more control. Plus the removal of my calf and ankle as another leaver in the equation helps me get the power down, and have more control.
Remember that it's not about maximum power output only. As he says, it's also about bringing as many muscle groups to bear on the work of turning the pedals and as you get better you should find you are not so much exerting a huge amount of force as you are exerting consistent force through more degrees of the total pedal stroke. It's about generating a high level of sustainable power.
@@errcoche I'm using muscles I didn't know I had. I love the fact that you can switch between different sets of muscle groups when others get tired. Something you can't do properly on flats.
@@kimgaugemusic That;s right Kim. In fact there was a discussion of saddles where I didn't really agree with the analysis. They were saying that ideally you sit in one place whereas I remember wanting to be able slide up and down the saddle on longer climbs in order to engage the different muscle groups ( it has been a while, only mountains in South Florida are stinking landfills ). I have been doing some cycling during lockdown and my hamstrings are making a comeback. I haven't played soccer in about 20 years now ( at 56 ) and they had shrunk down from lack of use. The important thing is that it shows I am pretty balanced in my pedaling, especially since I am just using sneakers and toe clips ( well I was until this week ).
Excellent video. I had very bad foot pain for years. I finally saw a podiatrist who knows cycling. He said move my cleats back. I've permanently damaged my feet from improper walking and cycling. Now my problem is 90% solved. I'm glad you advocate moving cleats back for some cyclists and debunk the joint over spindle rule.
So, aside from the fore/aft cleat position which seems to be the core of the talk in most of the comments, in the q factor part, what Neill is suggesting is to use our hip width or perhaps the ASIS width (the most forward bony part that protrudes from our hips) and try to match that with our Q-factor? I am personally a fairly small rider and while I'm currently riding a MTB, I have recorded myself and even with the cleats all the way out (foot closer to crank), I can't get my knees remotely close to straight at all and they go inwards a bit. I'm thinking I might need a narrower Q-factor for this reason. Current cranks are 175mm Q factor and with SPD pedals I end up at around 280mm. My ASIS width is around 245mm, so If I use that as reference, I'm 35mm adrift... Great to put a reason to why I always felt more stable and comfortable with a cleat position that's further forward than most bike fit videos suggest though. Thanks for the video!
This guy effin ROOLZ!!! I don’t ride, but I was completely subsumed by this topic! I respect the hell outta top-flight engineers of any kind and THIS guy communicates/translates his subject matter WELL. OUTSTANDING interview & upload, guy! Take a bow! 👏👏👏👏🤘👍✌️
Neil really nailed it explaining Q factor and knee pain in relation to cleat placement... I've always felt like I needed a bike fit, now I know I do. Really wish Neil wasn't 8534 miles (or 13,734 km) away from me. Great video.
Yip same here , I have been going on about q factor for about 20 years , that's why I use Keywin pedals , available in minus and plus axel lengths in 3 millimeters increments up to minus 10 and up to plus 10 , they also have plate Packers for different leg length discripency
If you can't adapt easily to a cleat change look at crank arm length as well as seat height and fore/aft positioning. Actually, all of these settings should be looked at carefully when making any adjustments. I keep a mirrored setup for saddle and post so that I can do A/B comparisons any time I make a change to cranks, pedals, stem, etc. I change the saddle position to make adaptation easier, according to my theory, but I also test indoors with the unchanged or "control" setup and then test outside on easy rides. I can then slowly move back to my standard setup if/when/as it seems appropriate. Also, before starting any of this, it's a great idea to consult a medically-certified podiatrist. Try out some orthotics even if you only try them in your "walking around" shoes. Once you have a sense of those factors you will make better decisions as discussed here. If you look only at "bike hardware" you might be missing out on a chance to solve important root problems. Also, he mentioned "the gut" and its effect on position and apparent form. Changing "q factor" instead of raising the stem and losing that gut is not what I'd suggest. OTOH, Froome doesn't have a gut problem but does have flailing knees. These are obviously very complicated questions and don't focus entirely on the hardware if you have never had your own skeleton evaluated by an MD. Just as it should be obvious that cyclists should consult with cardiologists for periodic checkups to catch early problems (most likely you'll simple learn the importance of proper rest periods) you should likewise make sure you get some kind of "medical workup" and diagnostics before you try to solve problems with radical equipment changes. One last thing is that cog choices matter, day to day. Some of these stress problems are caused by fatalistic views on cog choices that in my view are caused by the "watts" cult that doesn't seem to understand that "wattage" is a product of force and velocity. A seemingly trivial change in cadence within a controlled range of power can make a huge difference in how you stress your bones and tissue. Those things matter. For me, I sometimes strain myself in the hills when I use wide ratio cogs because I go from spinning to grinding too often if I'm changing pace a lot (in "Pyrenean" style climbs) if I use the OEM 11-30 cassette that goes 21-24-27-30. An 11-28 is much better for me and I'm even looking at Campy cogsets just to get closer gears because I'd rather have a 12-27 than any of the standard Shimano cassettes. The video advice is excellent but never forget that all of these doctrines require regular synthesis (with other established settings and doctrines) and continuous review to see how you're adapting to the changes. That's what "marginal gains" is all about. (It's not really about micro-dosing EPO and salbutamol, OK?)
I am cycling wearing only shoe no cleats. My problem is that after a 100km my archilles tendonitis hurts. I have been using same forward and backward foot position for speed and power.
Greetings! I have had that problem for years even with the forward cleat position because I have size 45.5 or 46 feet (depending on the shoe manufacturer) at 5'8" tall. 52 or 54 cm frame. My foot would hit the tire if I didn't watch it at low speeds. When I went to a more rearward cleat position it was much worse. But I think its worth the hassle because it seems to be better ,less hot spots on the feet and you can feel the arch and foot actually bearing weight through the entire sole of the shoe instead of the pressure always being on the ball of the foot. I'm still getting used to positioning my feet in a sharp low speed turn especially u turns on a narrow road. Sometimes I have to get off the bike and flip it around. I think in the long run the comfort and endurance will be worth it. It will just take time!
Hey, very good explanation! Quick (but tricky) question: If I move my cleat backwards, I "shorten" my leg length, and I have to lower the saddle but... does this affect my knee extension at the bottom of the pedal stroke? Cheers! Than you!
I naturally liked the rear position because it let me get my weight onto the pedal in a more balanced manner. Moved my cleat and adapted. I'm still getting use to my for seat position forward. I've always been a sit back TT type of rider behind the back
Have had my cleats direct under my metatarsal for > 20 years. No issues that I'm aware of (I probably just don't know any better) but after this excellent explanation I'm gonna experiment with moving the cleats back 10mm or so. Thanks!!!
Okay, I have spent the last year after getting a new bike and shoes, trying to get my fit correct. turned out the whole time I just had my cleats too far forward. Thank you so much for posting this video and all the videos you've put up with this guy.
That's crazy I've never even thought about the whole "q factor" thing....it's actually kinda mind blowing that the big manufacturers don't offer more variety in that area.
Crikey, mate! Do I really need to fly to Aus just to get this much attention to detail in my fit? Who’s your equal in US, Neill? Specifically Portland, OR.
Love reducing the q factor on my bikes. Actually used a really old Shimano crankset before what they called low profile with a newer bracket, reduced the q quite a bit.
This really helped me. I'm 193 cm tall and wear a SIDI 49 shoe. I slammed the cleat on my MTB shoes as far back as possible. Huge difference in taking pressure off my quads and making me feel more comfortable on saddle.
But why is the Pro bike fitter using ovalized chainrings?? It's all about perfect circles, proper ankling, cleat adjustment why would you ruin it with odd job~oval chain rings. ...? Not only has no sprint, but very power conscious as well. ... Super informative post for real, aft of the ball for power, steadiness and pedal stroke!!😉🌐
i adjusted my cleats the way he was explaining to widen my feet and put them in line with my hips ,and that small amount made such a difference .he knows his stuff and great to listen too .thanks keith
So Cam...where are your cleats? Slammed all the way back? 15mm back? 18mm back? I would love to see a poll of just how many riders have the cleats full aft.
12:18 The large front chain ring appears to be a bit of an oval instead of a perfect circle. Am I wrong, and if not, what benefit does that produce? (I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong, as watching it in slow motion the edge of the ring wavers against where the cable lines up in the background, looking at the 2 o’clock position).
I had a situation that my calves were cramping after long hard rides. My bike fitter recommended moving the cleat back to stabilize my foot. Cramps magically went away... I’m a proponent of a rearward cleat position...
It went together easily in less than an hour. th-cam.com/users/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L Make sure the front fork is forward or the pedals will hit the front tire. Tires are both a little soft so it needs air before I ride it. The rear wheel didn't come with a clamp regular bolts hold it on. The front had the clamp. No scratches out of box. Rims are a little off with a slight wobble. They could have spent more time with the spoke tool fixing the run out. So far out of the box I'm happy with it. I did replace the pedals with a nice aftermarket set. After riding it a bit my A$$ is a bit sore so I ordered another seat. Overall I'm nearly 60 and didn't ride a bike in 30 years. I like my new 29" Schwinn. It will be used for casual rides with my friend.
as an athletics sprinter in my youth, I strike the ground on the ball of my foot when running, and if I'm sprinting the heel doesn't even touch the ground. transitioning to the bike, having the spindle much behind the ball of the foot feels incredibly unnatural and like I'm definitely missing out on my calf muscle power, particularly in large efforts.
Great info. I was too forward and getting Achilles pain over long rides. Moving the cleat back made me stronger on the climbs and got rid of the tired feet I thought was the shoe related. Thank you D
Haha, I just set up my first set of cleats and definitely could make some adjustments. I’ve found that a good start is setting up the cleat towards the back instead of the front
I’m skeptical about the calf contributing to peak power. In standing vertical jump it’s basically just held as a solid unit to transmit force to the floor from the hip/knee extension. In Olympic lifting (probably highest peak power of any athletes), almost the entire lift is done with the heel on the floor. If you calf has to support the forces from upper leg, then those forces will be limited by calf strength and it’s even worse I’d imagine if your also plantar flexing. As an example of this inhibition, do a pull-up on a slippery or small grip (like a rock climbing fingerboard), the grip becomes a limiting factor and it feels like your pulling muscles are week and you can’t pull fast. Same thing happens in Olympic lifting with people who bend their arms during the pull (the explosion upwards is now limited by what you can isometrically hold in a bent arm position).
I agree with you. It is one of the reasons that I rode mid-sole for several years. I felt that the ankle and relatively small calf muscles were the weak link in the power train emanating from the large gluts. I did a test using power meter and heart rate and got some interesting results. Check it out at : sites.google.com/view/flat-pedals-vs-clipless/home
Jerry's Scenic Cycling nice article! I was thinking of doing a similar study myself. I think the placement at ball of foot maybe doesn’t impact performance much over a longer ride as your not expressing that much force at any given moment, so the calf is perfectly capable of providing a rigid ankle join to transmit that power to the pedal. Maybe the benefits, like higher cadence cited in your article; or the ability to make subtle adjustments to knee and hip extension by changing the level of ankle plantar-flexion through your stroke, make up for a slightly less efficient platform to transfer force. I’d be interested to see how track sprinters have their pedals set up, I’d expect they hold their ankle in a pretty fixed position too.
Ok, I am an old guy who uses a bicycle to get around. I don't own a car. Thanks so much for this information. I realized my cleats are way too far forward. This explains a lot of issues for me. I can't wait to get out and see how some changes affect me.
I have been riding a few days with my cleat as near the arch as I can and my feet as far out as I can. Ok. This has changed my life. I just got back from a ride and a climb and my hip is not hurting. I am not competitive, just 66 years old and no car. Thanks again, you have no idea.
Can, awesome video. Do you think that both cleats needs to be positioned identically? Or should you compensate for physiological differences if one needs to have more fore / aft
Foot size differences can definately require a staggered fore/aft position in the cleats, as can other unusual things like a tibial torsion, or a neurological deficit in the calf, or any number of other potential causes!
Just discovered this channel! 😃 Loving the quality of your journalism and the experts providing quality scientific input Cam. Can’t wait to dig into your back-catalog! Thanks 👌🏽
Quick question. If I move the cleats back and the foot forward wouldn't the most obvious thing be too also move the saddle forward? And if necessary take a longer stem. Why move the saddle down? Which would rotate the lower body anti clockwise (looking from the drive side)?
This was great thanks. I would like to know something about the use of spacers or wedges between the cleat and the sole of the shoe. I've been riding for almost forty years with no foot pain at all...but then switched to a new pair of shoes and started having severe pain along the outside of my left foot. After six months of trying everything under the sun with NO relief I finally tried two wedges which did away with all pain overnight. I'm overjoyed of course....but don't really understand what all this means and I'm scared to death to every try another new pair of shoes it case it happens all over again. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
Cheers Stuart, hopefully you caught the follow up - 75% of Cyclists Leave this Bike Fitters Clinic with a SHIM (why?) th-cam.com/video/CIFRLF0xURk/w-d-xo.html
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Sat glued to this , to give this amount of professional information for free is just amazing , Thank you it really is Appreciated.
Check out James, Bikefit Tuesdays, in Francis Cade channel. More free advice!
Exactly what I was thinking. This guy is incredibly helpful
brilliant explanation, am nursing my left knee doing 300km in a day on road bike.....most of my questions about cleat positions been answered 👍
I wasted 300 on a fit that was horrible. That was after years of fitting myself because I didn't trust anyone. I wish this fitter lived near me though because everything he said was what I tell my friends. Not only is the more aft position on the cleat better for tri athletes but also for long climbs and extended efforts like the Tour de France. The best commentary on bike fitting I have found on YT. Thanks for the upload. I would love to pick this guys brain!
Wow, very interesting Cam. Thanks a lot.
Be careful of buying the extended axle dura ace pedals, they have a shorter than standard axle to begin with so if you buy the +4mm version they are then just standard length, better to buy the Ultegra +4mm pedals instead.
Jeez. That man knows is s***. I've listen to a lot of stuff and this is the most structured and informed discussion I've found about it.
How do you know he's correct, if you don't know?
@@notreally2406 He is correct! Trust me ;-)
Although he uses oval rings so not so sure...
He's bloody brilliant. I totally nerded out listening to him and I'm a super novice rider.
I could listen to Neill talk for hours. Bring him back often, Cam!
Neil is the best!
My comment!
I have NEVER learnt more about this subject!!! Thanks Cam and Neill
I actually paid attention and moved my SPD-SLs back 18mm on my size 42 Fiziks. The shoes feel great in this position and my pedal stroke feels powerful and efficient. Thanks for posting such useful information.
нщг speak about road shoes or MTB?
Just moved my speedplay cleats all the way back. Instantly felt the difference, heaps better and feels much more comfortable. Brilliant advice 👍
Cam Just wanted to say love all your vids. Your style and versatility in your content is superior and I bloody love it!! It’s always a competition for Dad (55🤫) and I (18) to watch your videos first. It just goes to show how you can tap into a wide audience age range. I essentially love it when I give dad some advice then you come out with a video saying the exact same thing. I think it’s a little frustrating on dads part that I turn out to be right some times. I’ve learnt a lot from your video and appreciate all the time and effort that goes into them ;)
haha! Telling dad how it is. Love it Alex and thanks for sharing. Cam
Exactly what I needed, quads were doing all the work and minor knee pain. Will test this tomorrow. subbed.
Foot stability. 1. Walk up to an escalator and as you start to position your feet grab the rails, left and right.
2. Line up your toes on the edge of the step when it is flat just before it starts to go up.
3. Go back down and this time place the balls of your feet on the edge.
4. The third time stand mid foot.
5. Repeat without holding onto the "rail".
6. Which foot position provides the most stability? AND pay attention to the calf muscles.
What's the Q-factor of an escalator?
This guy is really thorough and enlightening
I got fit by Neil about 6 months ago and this reminded me how good he is. Unfortunately he moved north, bad news for Melbourne peeps but great news for anyone on the Sunshine Coast!
Wow, right on topic. I just recently changed my shoes and attached the cleats myself. As it appears, with what you are saying in the video, too far forward. Thanks for the advice. Cheers
i recently change a bit with my bike setup. lower the saddle height around 3mm, and change shoe from fizik to shimano rc5. then place the cleat as back as possible. however i feel strange after few rides. my calf muscles feel dead much faster than quad. i think i don't feel the quad at all. any thought?
Brilliant - extremely informative. Love watching your clips 👍.
"Synergistically" word of the day 👍
Thank you VERY much!
Convey my thanks to this BikeFitter.
What a talent in telling the story!
What a knowledge!
Perfectly structured!
Most of the things he says I already knew, but apart from “what” he gives us “why”. Great job.
Valuable addition to your already great content.
Having struggled with fit over the years and Shimano cleat position - this is super informative many thanks for producing this -
Cam, this is brilliant!!! Loved all of it. Especially, the conclusion around the "kinetic chain". People need help understanding that poor clear position could end up causing numb hands!
I feel I'm very quad dominant and I've just check my clear position. According to Neil's ballpark advice, I'm over 5mm from where I should be as a starting point!! So, I might just start adjusting over a long period to see how I feel - whilst naturally compensating in other areas.
Big respect to Neil👍 He knows his stuff and seems like an affable guy. Loved his knowledge on q factor and the axle length options.
Keep the good work up. If I get some spare cash, I'll be buying you (and Neil) a coffee or two☕
I got lost in time taking in all if information...for a 16 minute video it was to short....I really enjoy this and now thinking of going to speed play....thanks for this information.
Moving my cleats back now...
Lower your seatpost as well..;)
Welcome to the club! It does wonders.
I’m after only a couple of weeks I can literally feel my harmstring and gluts growing larger.
I feel more efficient and relaxed.
Adam Kubiak has
My cleats won't go far enough back 🤷♂️
@@jakethesnake1976 Same problem, cleat max back yet that foot bone still further back than the centre of pedal spindle
I loved the biomechanics lesson. Having worked in this part of medicine, I still learned a lot. It’s important to understand the kinetic chain of forces and transfer of power, as well as, how small changes can have a big impact on performance, ankle stability and knee problems. Bravo!
I had sore knees and tried everything from q rings, shorter cranks and different pedals. Nothing seemed to work until I started experimenting with cleat position. I had an old pair of shoes and started drilling holes until I found what worked for me. Now I drill new mounting holes in my shoes about 1 inch back from the manufacture position. I currently use speedplay pedals and have allot more stability and no pain. My advise, experiment and find what works for you.
another great video! lots of upside to pushing the cleats back but the one key downside, especially for novice riders, is a greater occurrence of toe strikes on the front tire. Most can brush it off but some may be easily alarmed by it.
I talk about Q-factor all the time. I’m obsessed. Bugs the hell out of everybody.
Haha!
Very interesting video. I like this guy. It must be great to get a bike fit with him he has so much knowledge to share. Thanks for sharing with us.
Absolutely, he knows his stuff, and perhaps more importantly, can articulate it very well! A great combo for TH-cam! Cam
Is there a way with some sort of calipers to measure the distance between the iliac crests to be able to apply some sort of formula to calculate the correct “Q factor ? Great videos , very informative in a easily digestible manner . Excellent !
Good stuff ! It will be interesting to know how to deal with feet size discrepancy too. Me as an example, got 5mm differences in ball joint locations between left and right foot
Just watched this, slammed my cleats back, and immediately felt better hamstring engagement. Muchas gracias.
Yep.
I saw Neill and clicked as fast as I could. His knowledge is so valuable. Thank you for these videos! My cleats are as far back as I can get them, and I wish I could get them a bit further back.
Kevin Lavery , if u have speedplay pedals, they make an adapter plate that allows 14mm of rear adjustment.
@@user-ys6hl1uy1t I do not have speedplays, but that's good to know. That may have to be my next upgrade.
@@kevinlavery6194 Hello Kevin. What kind of cleats do you have? I have designed an adapter that allows 12-24mm of rear adjustment for SPD-SL and Look KEOS. I have just received the first batch, and love them for my climbs here in the Alps. I will start selling the adapters in my webshop in two weeks, but I need beta-testers, so I shall be happy to send you a set for free. (As long as you don't live in Antarctica)
Cleat goes backward means foot is going forward right?
@@nielserikstrup I'd definitely be interested mate 👍🏼
Cam, First Question how can one find out how wide the pelvis REALLY is? i mean, you can measure the sit bones for the saddle and the outside of the hips, but surely the length of the leg makes a diference? so if one is 193cm tall, inside 94cm and hip width of 38cm ( Lineal not circumference)what would the recomended Q factor be? i only heard about shimano, speedplay or look. i would like to hear about TIME which is all i use (my knees like them) I used the Impacts which have a bigger surface area over the RXS and haven't used the new ProX Question2: how much of a Myth is the pedal interface area ( Contact surface) as power transfer. thanks Mark
I guess the bike industry leaves you to buy 2 saddle with different measure and Feel whats better
That was fascinating! I've struggled with foot issues in the past, and I'm now trying to offset what might be longer term repetitive issues in my hips, lower back and quads. And I think the discussion on these-to-side and fore and aft might be a clue to point me toward a solution. Aside from that personal stuff, I though the universal Q-factor thing was really wild.. Thank you for such a great video!
Cycling is an efficiency sport! That's my takeaway. Thank you.
This is absolutely amazing information. My head is spinning (in a good way) as a reasonably new rider. It gives me a lot to think about.
Grrr,
Guess I will be moving my cleats a bit more back tomorrow.
The guy convinced me to try and see what happens.
Oh wow, life changer. Just moved my cleats back, back pain and knee pain went away! Thanks for the content! I can comfirm, size 46 foot 20mm, bang on!
Is there any rule of thumb by how much one should lower the saddle height when moving the cleat behind the ball of one's foot (e.g. if moving the cleat 20mm behind the metatarsophalangeal joint, how much seat lowering is required)? Or is it more of a personal thing? I reckon that moving the cleat back might also require moving the seat forward a bit, or am I right?
When you listen to Neil for a few minutes you can tell he knows his onions. Very interesting discussion.
Tim Butler ...
Not only do I wholly concur w your take, I’ll now be planting “knows his onions” in my ‘Garden of Epic Idioms.’ Thanks, Butler! ✌️😄
Moving my cleats back helped my knee pain. Check out yourself, feel the kneecaps when standing on your toes. You will feel how the kneecaps ( patilla ) are stressed and pressed against the inside of the knee. I had my husband extend the slots on my spd cleats to achieve this. It also reduced the leverage as I pull up on the pedal and bring it over the top of the stroke.
Thanks for sharing on the thread
I've really enjoyed the 2 videos with Neil, and looking for the next ones! Riding for a couple years and never had a fit, but once this Covid thing is over plan on going to a Steve Hogg trained fitter in my country.
Super interesting....having wide feet I always struggle with cleat placement and shoe fit.
Thanks both for sharing this extremely useful info. I hope you can do more like it. I would be interested to know how Neill finds the optimum q-factor, whether is this from some method of hip-width measurement, trial-and-error from watching leg/knee movement from behind, or some other method.
Neill should consider doing a full video series like this on all the aspects of bike fit for those of use who can't get to him in person, even if it was a paid-for private series. It's so refreshing and useful when someone understands something like this from first principles - something unfortunately especially rare in the sport of cycling.
I am a beginner gravel cyclist with occasional road riding mixed in as well. I moved my SPD cleats back after watching this and WHAT A DIFFERENCE. My glutes have been sleeping 😂
Dude knows his joobs.
Cleat further back also should mention the caution of front tire interference when turn at slow speed or intersections I have size 49 and clip the tire when the cleats get back.
Thanks for sharing Shawn
Great video, many thanks, we can never stop learning. It's what makes cycling such a great sport 🤙🏼
looking forward to part 2
I used to get terrible knee pain on long rides . Tried every thing i could as far as my dura ace pedals could do . Found some 20 mm spacers on US ebay and gave them a go . They fit on the dura ace pedals and then screw into the crank . What a God send . All My pain went away the next ride and has never come back .
16:03 the hallelujah moment for me. So plainly explained, thank you.
Nice to have this freely available!
I would like to get some guidelines on how much you can drop your saddle and cockpit, is there a logic for that as well?
He’s not only so knowledgeable but also so eloquent! Great vid!!
Brilliant discussion from someone who really knows his stuff. I just started riding, and everyone is telling me that I have to have the ball of my foot on the center of the pedal, but instinctively, from my years in bodybuilding and doing squats, I know for a fact that my maximum power output comes from planting my foot squarely on the pedal, somewhere in the center of the arch of my foot. Now that might seem like poor form to some, but I personally have more control. Plus the removal of my calf and ankle as another leaver in the equation helps me get the power down, and have more control.
Remember that it's not about maximum power output only. As he says, it's also about bringing as many muscle groups to bear on the work of turning the pedals and as you get better you should find you are not so much exerting a huge amount of force as you are exerting consistent force through more degrees of the total pedal stroke. It's about generating a high level of sustainable power.
@@errcoche I'm using muscles I didn't know I had. I love the fact that you can switch between different sets of muscle groups when others get tired. Something you can't do properly on flats.
@@kimgaugemusic That;s right Kim. In fact there was a discussion of saddles where I didn't really agree with the analysis. They were saying that ideally you sit in one place whereas I remember wanting to be able slide up and down the saddle on longer climbs in order to engage the different muscle groups ( it has been a while, only mountains in South Florida are stinking landfills ). I have been doing some cycling during lockdown and my hamstrings are making a comeback. I haven't played soccer in about 20 years now ( at 56 ) and they had shrunk down from lack of use. The important thing is that it shows I am pretty balanced in my pedaling, especially since I am just using sneakers and toe clips ( well I was until this week ).
@@errcoche I'm constantly shifting position on my saddle. Apparently Chris Froome moves all over the place.
@@kimgaugemusic They call him, Froome, The Washing Machine. I'm not convinced he's doing it on purpose, or for that matter, is even aware.
Excellent video. I had very bad foot pain for years. I finally saw a podiatrist who knows cycling. He said move my cleats back. I've permanently damaged my feet from improper walking and cycling. Now my problem is 90% solved. I'm glad you advocate moving cleats back for some cyclists and debunk the joint over spindle rule.
So, aside from the fore/aft cleat position which seems to be the core of the talk in most of the comments, in the q factor part, what Neill is suggesting is to use our hip width or perhaps the ASIS width (the most forward bony part that protrudes from our hips) and try to match that with our Q-factor? I am personally a fairly small rider and while I'm currently riding a MTB, I have recorded myself and even with the cleats all the way out (foot closer to crank), I can't get my knees remotely close to straight at all and they go inwards a bit. I'm thinking I might need a narrower Q-factor for this reason. Current cranks are 175mm Q factor and with SPD pedals I end up at around 280mm. My ASIS width is around 245mm, so If I use that as reference, I'm 35mm adrift...
Great to put a reason to why I always felt more stable and comfortable with a cleat position that's further forward than most bike fit videos suggest though.
Thanks for the video!
This guy effin ROOLZ!!! I don’t ride, but I was completely subsumed by this topic! I respect the hell outta top-flight engineers of any kind and THIS guy communicates/translates his subject matter WELL.
OUTSTANDING interview & upload, guy! Take a bow! 👏👏👏👏🤘👍✌️
Neil really nailed it explaining Q factor and knee pain in relation to cleat placement... I've always felt like I needed a bike fit, now I know I do. Really wish Neil wasn't 8534 miles (or 13,734 km) away from me. Great video.
Yip same here , I have been going on about q factor for about 20 years , that's why I use Keywin pedals , available in minus and plus axel lengths in 3 millimeters increments up to minus 10 and up to plus 10 , they also have plate Packers for different leg length discripency
If you can't adapt easily to a cleat change look at crank arm length as well as seat height and fore/aft positioning. Actually, all of these settings should be looked at carefully when making any adjustments. I keep a mirrored setup for saddle and post so that I can do A/B comparisons any time I make a change to cranks, pedals, stem, etc. I change the saddle position to make adaptation easier, according to my theory, but I also test indoors with the unchanged or "control" setup and then test outside on easy rides. I can then slowly move back to my standard setup if/when/as it seems appropriate.
Also, before starting any of this, it's a great idea to consult a medically-certified podiatrist. Try out some orthotics even if you only try them in your "walking around" shoes. Once you have a sense of those factors you will make better decisions as discussed here. If you look only at "bike hardware" you might be missing out on a chance to solve important root problems. Also, he mentioned "the gut" and its effect on position and apparent form. Changing "q factor" instead of raising the stem and losing that gut is not what I'd suggest. OTOH, Froome doesn't have a gut problem but does have flailing knees.
These are obviously very complicated questions and don't focus entirely on the hardware if you have never had your own skeleton evaluated by an MD. Just as it should be obvious that cyclists should consult with cardiologists for periodic checkups to catch early problems (most likely you'll simple learn the importance of proper rest periods) you should likewise make sure you get some kind of "medical workup" and diagnostics before you try to solve problems with radical equipment changes.
One last thing is that cog choices matter, day to day. Some of these stress problems are caused by fatalistic views on cog choices that in my view are caused by the "watts" cult that doesn't seem to understand that "wattage" is a product of force and velocity. A seemingly trivial change in cadence within a controlled range of power can make a huge difference in how you stress your bones and tissue. Those things matter. For me, I sometimes strain myself in the hills when I use wide ratio cogs because I go from spinning to grinding too often if I'm changing pace a lot (in "Pyrenean" style climbs) if I use the OEM 11-30 cassette that goes 21-24-27-30. An 11-28 is much better for me and I'm even looking at Campy cogsets just to get closer gears because I'd rather have a 12-27 than any of the standard Shimano cassettes.
The video advice is excellent but never forget that all of these doctrines require regular synthesis (with other established settings and doctrines) and continuous review to see how you're adapting to the changes. That's what "marginal gains" is all about. (It's not really about micro-dosing EPO and salbutamol, OK?)
I am cycling wearing only shoe no cleats. My problem is that after a 100km my archilles tendonitis hurts. I have been using same forward and backward foot position for speed and power.
I went too far back found my toes overlapping on front wheel. Completely frustrating.
Greetings! I have had that problem for years even with the forward cleat position because I have size 45.5 or 46 feet (depending on the shoe manufacturer) at 5'8" tall. 52 or 54 cm frame. My foot would hit the tire if I didn't watch it at low speeds. When I went to a more rearward cleat position it was much worse. But I think its worth the hassle because it seems to be better ,less hot spots on the feet and you can feel the arch and foot actually bearing weight through the entire sole of the shoe instead of the pressure always being on the ball of the foot. I'm still getting used to positioning my feet in a sharp low speed turn especially u turns on a narrow road. Sometimes I have to get off the bike and flip it around. I think in the long run the comfort and endurance will be worth it. It will just take time!
Yeah me too. Have shoe size 47. But used to it now and doesn't bother me anymore. Just need to be more careful at lower speed turns.
Hey, very good explanation! Quick (but tricky) question: If I move my cleat backwards, I "shorten" my leg length, and I have to lower the saddle but... does this affect my knee extension at the bottom of the pedal stroke? Cheers! Than you!
Not sure myself mate. Neill will be getting involved in the comments soon
I naturally liked the rear position because it let me get my weight onto the pedal in a more balanced manner.
Moved my cleat and adapted. I'm still getting use to my for seat position forward. I've always been a sit back TT type of rider behind the back
Such an informative video on cleat position I had to watch again 1 year later!
I need to go to Australia and meet this guy
Have had my cleats direct under my metatarsal for > 20 years. No issues that I'm aware of (I probably just don't know any better) but after this excellent explanation I'm gonna experiment with moving the cleats back 10mm or so. Thanks!!!
Okay, I have spent the last year after getting a new bike and shoes, trying to get my fit correct. turned out the whole time I just had my cleats too far forward. Thank you so much for posting this video and all the videos you've put up with this guy.
That's crazy I've never even thought about the whole "q factor" thing....it's actually kinda mind blowing that the big manufacturers don't offer more variety in that area.
Crikey, mate! Do I really need to fly to Aus just to get this much attention to detail in my fit? Who’s your equal in US, Neill? Specifically Portland, OR.
Love reducing the q factor on my bikes. Actually used a really old Shimano crankset before what they called low profile with a newer bracket, reduced the q quite a bit.
This really helped me. I'm 193 cm tall and wear a SIDI 49 shoe. I slammed the cleat on my MTB shoes as far back as possible. Huge difference in taking pressure off my quads and making me feel more comfortable on saddle.
But why is the Pro bike fitter using ovalized chainrings?? It's all about perfect circles, proper ankling, cleat adjustment why would you ruin it with odd job~oval chain rings. ...?
Not only has no sprint, but very power conscious as well. ...
Super informative post for real, aft of the ball for power, steadiness and pedal stroke!!😉🌐
I wish I was in Australia so I could book a fitting with this guy! Amazing content.
i adjusted my cleats the way he was explaining to widen my feet and put them in line with my hips ,and that small amount made such a difference .he knows his stuff and great to listen too .thanks keith
So Cam...where are your cleats? Slammed all the way back? 15mm back? 18mm back? I would love to see a poll of just how many riders have the cleats full aft.
Great advice, I put my cleats back to about 15mm behind the metatarsal line and let's see how it goes. I felt before that I was riding too far ahead.
12:18 The large front chain ring appears to be a bit of an oval instead of a perfect circle. Am I wrong, and if not, what benefit does that produce? (I’m pretty sure I’m not wrong, as watching it in slow motion the edge of the ring wavers against where the cable lines up in the background, looking at the 2 o’clock position).
I had a situation that my calves were cramping after long hard rides. My bike fitter recommended moving the cleat back to stabilize my foot. Cramps magically went away... I’m a proponent of a rearward cleat position...
It went together easily in less than an hour. th-cam.com/users/postUgkxHL1v1R3NE5x4KiYfyt8dnQmyNYz7qi5L Make sure the front fork is forward or the pedals will hit the front tire. Tires are both a little soft so it needs air before I ride it. The rear wheel didn't come with a clamp regular bolts hold it on. The front had the clamp. No scratches out of box. Rims are a little off with a slight wobble. They could have spent more time with the spoke tool fixing the run out. So far out of the box I'm happy with it. I did replace the pedals with a nice aftermarket set. After riding it a bit my A$$ is a bit sore so I ordered another seat. Overall I'm nearly 60 and didn't ride a bike in 30 years. I like my new 29" Schwinn. It will be used for casual rides with my friend.
I run my cleats all the way back on all my shoes
as an athletics sprinter in my youth, I strike the ground on the ball of my foot when running, and if I'm sprinting the heel doesn't even touch the ground. transitioning to the bike, having the spindle much behind the ball of the foot feels incredibly unnatural and like I'm definitely missing out on my calf muscle power, particularly in large efforts.
Analysing video now...
Great info. I was too forward and getting Achilles pain over long rides. Moving the cleat back made me stronger on the climbs and got rid of the tired feet I thought was the shoe related. Thank you D
5mm on Speedplay is adequate but 4mm on Shimano is not much . I stopped watching this BS after that..
Looking forward to upgrading to speed play. Not looking forward to changing shoes and buying pedals tho. lol.
Haha, I just set up my first set of cleats and definitely could make some adjustments. I’ve found that a good start is setting up the cleat towards the back instead of the front
I’m skeptical about the calf contributing to peak power. In standing vertical jump it’s basically just held as a solid unit to transmit force to the floor from the hip/knee extension. In Olympic lifting (probably highest peak power of any athletes), almost the entire lift is done with the heel on the floor. If you calf has to support the forces from upper leg, then those forces will be limited by calf strength and it’s even worse I’d imagine if your also plantar flexing. As an example of this inhibition, do a pull-up on a slippery or small grip (like a rock climbing fingerboard), the grip becomes a limiting factor and it feels like your pulling muscles are week and you can’t pull fast. Same thing happens in Olympic lifting with people who bend their arms during the pull (the explosion upwards is now limited by what you can isometrically hold in a bent arm position).
I agree with you. It is one of the reasons that I rode mid-sole for several years. I felt that the ankle and relatively small calf muscles were the weak link in the power train emanating from the large gluts. I did a test using power meter and heart rate and got some interesting results. Check it out at : sites.google.com/view/flat-pedals-vs-clipless/home
Jerry's Scenic Cycling nice article! I was thinking of doing a similar study myself. I think the placement at ball of foot maybe doesn’t impact performance much over a longer ride as your not expressing that much force at any given moment, so the calf is perfectly capable of providing a rigid ankle join to transmit that power to the pedal. Maybe the benefits, like higher cadence cited in your article; or the ability to make subtle adjustments to knee and hip extension by changing the level of ankle plantar-flexion through your stroke, make up for a slightly less efficient platform to transfer force. I’d be interested to see how track sprinters have their pedals set up, I’d expect they hold their ankle in a pretty fixed position too.
Guess what I’ll be doing this weekend??? 😉
A lot of riders don’t worry about metatarsal alignment anymore. I shove my cleats all the way back and go from there. More to center of foot for sure.
Finally, for xc mountain bikes, is the cleats a little more forward, or a little more backward ?
Ok, I am an old guy who uses a bicycle to get around. I don't own a car. Thanks so much for this information. I realized my cleats are way too far forward. This explains a lot of issues for me. I can't wait to get out and see how some changes affect me.
I have been riding a few days with my cleat as near the arch as I can and my feet as far out as I can. Ok. This has changed my life. I just got back from a ride and a climb and my hip is not hurting. I am not competitive, just 66 years old and no car. Thanks again, you have no idea.
Any suggestions for a rider with a 1/2 inch leg length discrepancy? Shim between the cleat and shoe on the short side?
Can, awesome video. Do you think that both cleats needs to be positioned identically? Or should you compensate for physiological differences if one needs to have more fore / aft
Foot size differences can definately require a staggered fore/aft position in the cleats, as can other unusual things like a tibial torsion, or a neurological deficit in the calf, or any number of other potential causes!
Neill Stanbury thanks for the personal reply! Very educational advice in the video. Much appreciated
At 7m44sec whats the story about 172.5mm cranks?
Just discovered this channel! 😃 Loving the quality of your journalism and the experts providing quality scientific input Cam. Can’t wait to dig into your back-catalog! Thanks 👌🏽
Thanks for supporting the channel Dave 👍
Dammit! I've already spent enough! Now I'm looking up these other types of cleats with more axle length options!
Quick question. If I move the cleats back and the foot forward wouldn't the most obvious thing be too also move the saddle forward? And if necessary take a longer stem. Why move the saddle down? Which would rotate the lower body anti clockwise (looking from the drive side)?
This was great thanks. I would like to know something about the use of spacers or wedges between the cleat and the sole of the shoe. I've been riding for almost forty years with no foot pain at all...but then switched to a new pair of shoes and started having severe pain along the outside of my left foot. After six months of trying everything under the sun with NO relief I finally tried two wedges which did away with all pain overnight. I'm overjoyed of course....but don't really understand what all this means and I'm scared to death to every try another new pair of shoes it case it happens all over again. Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.
Interesting to hear and thanks for sharing. I'll see if I can pose that question to Neill next time. Cam
Superb - more from this chap please - he is fantastic
Cheers Stuart, hopefully you caught the follow up - 75% of Cyclists Leave this Bike Fitters Clinic with a SHIM (why?) th-cam.com/video/CIFRLF0xURk/w-d-xo.html