Most I speak to seem to HATE farming now. But how do we fix? This is MY take on changing and improving it! Alpha 20 NEWS and UPDATES Full Playlist:🔗 th-cam.com/play/PL5Z54hiemOAvbB44cASLUyFX7_chOgqLw.html
Well I say that its a survival game so the challenge has to be there, the key to survive isn't to be strong, have guns and lot of ammo but the most important, to have something to eat and this was kinda killed in A19 when you had your garden going.
You missed one aspect... the seeds you find in the world. This is the key to tipping farming in your favor. TFP want you to have a garden that contributes towards your food income, but doesn't supply it entirely. I say, add hen houses, bee hives and fruit trees to Living Off The Land as added bonuses to each tier instead of making gardens OP.
That's a great idea. If they expand what you could farm it would help dramatically. I was wondering why I was finding so many seeds so early in the game. Makes more sense now.
this would actually make a great expansion to the book series i mentioned in my post. The option to create chicken coops and bee hives. I'm even fine with not being able to harvest the chickens themselves as long as they provide say 5 eggs per day or every other day and 15 feathers. Beehives have the option of producing 1 honey every 120mins, maybe even have a boar pen that you can harvest for meat, leather, bones. if they wanted to reduce it to just the meat i'd be fine with that too.
Oof, this is rough, since I'm my groups dedicated farmer most of the time. Overall I'm fine with the spirit of the change, as in A19 you quickly get to a point where food is not an issue at all, but I think the seed drop chance should increase with the skill point investment. I don't think it should hit 100%, but it should be higher. Or, maybe a reduction in how many plants it takes to make the seed as you level up. Going down to four plants at rank 2, and 3 plants at rank 3. But, only one or the other. Both would be too much and would get us right back to A19 overabundance issues.
Haha yes. Same, we had dedicated farmer and I don't think we'll be able to convince anyone to spend all that grind and tedium to fix up hundreds of plots all the time ;)
I think seed drop chance should go away, and then you have a predictable system where you can just tweak harvest count to get thematically appropriate returns based on skill level.
@@PeterParkerJr Replanting or not basically boils down to a design decision, and I think either way is valid. On one hand not having to replant is a nice quality-of-life thing, but on the other hand needing to actually replant is probably a little more realistic and makes the endeavor of farming more of an actual role. Since I love the idea of coop play on multiplayer servers I would probably lean toward requiring replanting. But I think the fact that it takes more time should also be reflected in the exp gained from the activity. Mostly what I'm adverse to is the RNG... because if you want reliable yields that forces you to plant excessive crops, and on larger multiplayer servers I think more things growing could cause performance issues. What I'd like to see is higher base harvest counts so that when you forage plants in the world it is more frequently worth the inventory slot they occupy, and with set harvest counts rather than random returns it becomes much easier to balance Living off the land.
SIMPLE FIX: Put the Farming back the way it was, No seeds back unless double punch, Farming skills equals quantities of vegies (1,2, 3 per level), just make the plants take Longer to produce. Corn, potatoes and etc doesn't grow overnight.
I really do not understand why they did not just leave the mechanics the same as A19 and just make it grow a lot slower. If it takes a week to grow instead of 3 days, boom 1/2 as much food.
Yep! The objective of less food seems to be reached by not giving less food, but making people hate farming. A peculiar choice! Make players hate things and not play, is not good for a game :D
Its pretty clear the pimps decided this patch to make early game harder. They have restricted food and water drops, made crops harder to build, and antibiotics/honey are rare. So in that light I can see what they are going for to an extent. Also, something that you didnt mention, going right to meat stew, but the early meals, the corn on the cob, cornbread and baked potato? They doubled the food from them. Each now grants 10 food per pop. That means that early game at least, you will need to eat less of your crops to stay fed as you build up to a full scale farm. Watching glock9 do his farmer glock series was PAINFUL the first few days as he was guzzling stacks of fruits and veggies at 1,2, and 5 food a pop just to avoid starvation. At least now it matches charred meat for the most basic farm food available. I do agree that the whole replanting thing is obnoxious. I would be content if instead of a seed you got a baby crop in the ground already. That alone would cut the replanting portion in half give or take, and remove a lot of the tedium. While still including the need for high living off the land to keep things stable. A bit of advice id give to new players is, If you want to do long term farming, save your seeds till you have at LEAST 1 point into living off the land to make farming possible to maintain. Get all three points to be safe.
Hello! Yes Chris. I think reducing food is the right choice, we had too much in A19. But making it grindy is the wrong design choice. Lengthen growth times from 3 to 7 instead, and keep the seedlings, so we can do our farming, harvest, and then spend time on the actual game :)
thing is ... food is already not an issue, even at low loot%, hunting is still more than enough even without huntsman skill. Currently playing with 1 other person and 90% of our food comes from animals. And we dont even activly hunt them, we just see them in our travels and kill them along the way. Once they removed the wellness trait some major version back they pretty much made cooking and with that farming(food) pretty much pointless. The only reason to make good food would be for the healing ... but then again ... why not just grow aloe vera and make first aid bandages?
I like that the amount of food is reduced and farming is not as profitable as it used to be. It also makes the debuff from cold temperature a bit more dangerous than in A19 - where food was so easy to get that the increase of the hunger rate was trivial, at best. But I absolutely hate the need to replant all the time. It has nothing to do with "it's a survival game". It's just a time-consuming, dull and extremely annoying mechanic. I wish instead crops took twice as long to grow, or even more (after all, farming - even in a small plot like a garden - is a long term process) with Vedui's suggestion of a chance for plants to revert back to seedling. Also food spoiliage and the need to refrigerate to give an incentive for early electricity. One can dream...
Yep! Less food I can get behind for sure! LOL 2 still needs a buff. But making it tedious and grindy is not the approach. As someone who doesn't mind the boredom, will get lotsa food anyhow! So it only avoids food being plenty by making the mechanic boring so people avoid it. That is a broken game design.
I think the farming changes were made with the outfit bonuses that got pushed back to Alpha 21 in mind. Combined with the outfits bonus crops and seeds you'd probably be pretty far ahead. In the bit I have played since its updated, the less focused planting random seeds from loot thing seems much more viable than before. Another idea, a new book set, like a garden digest type of thing. Each volume could give a specific crop an extra seed when crafting seeds. Then the completion bonus could upgrade seeds you craft to mature a day faster.
there's a lot more rabbits and chickens. there's also a lot more seeds and food recipes in loot. But you do have to invest to level 2 of living off the land to make a fully self-sustainable farm. (1 gets you a net gain on produce, 2 allows you to craft seeds from part of the produce). If you find a corn and potato seed recipe book, you can get away with 1 point in LoL. Or just hunt chickens & rabbits. Don't forget that food cans in vendor machines are actually really cheap once you're a couple days into the game too. And the old classic "bacon & eggs" is still very strong if you keep your eyes peeled for nests. OH, also, drink red tea, not water. Chrysthanthemums are super common, grab them, and make red tea. It's buff reduces your hunger loss over time.
The problem i had with farming in general is that in A19 farming was fine for 1-2 people. However, with my group when you extend it to 3+ people farming was a problem then and early game everybody is just starving. Now it's quite a bit worse and it was not until late game where food even became remotely comfortable for everybody to eat w/e without running out of food. Now it's like being in early game still even though we're late game i would recommend just giving us the seedlings back remove the chance of getting a seed and reducing just slightly the amount of food you get. What i've noticed playing with mostly just friends large groups previously hard for food to be plentiful/stable but was still manageable. Now bigger groups are worst off and even people playing single player are suffering from it.
Food is now... a gatekeeper. I just collect eggs, buy from traders, buy food at traders in general, and don't share... so I always have enough, and others are starving as they don't pay attention to it :P And all without any farming, a few days in game. Hunt meat and grill it, bacon n eggs when ya can, and you're pretty good :)
Do quests till you get a bike, put some points into huntsman and farm some wolves, cougars and bears. And tada you got more grilled meat than you ever need. Till then just live off what you find in poi and can buy from trader and machine.
I wish they'd never touched farm because farming without hunting = starvation already in alpha 19. Now in alpha 20 - my gf and I don't even see the point to farming at all and this is coming from my gf who loves doing farming in survival games but she hates doing it in 7dtd. When she first told me about what was happening with the farming my first thought was "If they want to keep it like this they NEED to at least double if not TRIPLE the harvest amount." I like your idea better tho, just higher chance to not break the plant with more points in farming but it's that or double the amount of harvest and Quad it on full perked farming. I don't mind the "Realism" of having to replant, but you have to make farming worth it or people are just gonna hunt for eggs and make bacon and eggs from beginning to late game.
I think A19 had too much crops, but the fix should be to give less, not to make it grindy :) Heck in A20 boiled meat and buying food is probably better :P
I'm a bit mixed about this topic. On one hand as someone that's trying to pick up homesteading, I know that farming on a self sufficiency level is VERY hard and that the farming mechanics in previous versions was pretty GG EZ once the main systems are down, so maybe the fun pimps are trying to change that. On the other hand, I get what Vedui is saying as well, as now that farming is too much of a grind and too much RNG for a game to be enjoyable. A few idea I pulled out of my ass to remedy this is: 1. Maybe have seed vending machines so those not invested in the skill can get seeds reliably, and since the farming plots isnt that much of a hassle to go down if you know what you're doing, it becomes a good side operation for good food farming even if you're not that interested in farming. 2. Like Vedui recommended, Introduce new book series to make farming a gradually better rewarding operation. 3. Make farming skill independent of the endurance tree. That way people can invest in certain common skills without having to invest in skill trees that they aren't interested. While you're at it, throw in sexual tyrannosaurus in the independent tree as well as it's what making the STR tree OP. 4. Maybe add some sort of UI so that players can quickly manage their farm plots and what to plant instead of having to do stuff block by block? Like a "farming Journal" interface or something?
I think in general, it's a zombie horde apocalypse game. Farming (and cooking, and sewing, and everything else) should not be making the game tedious, just to suck time away. Reducing food was good. Increasing tediousness is not. :)
Yeah, I thought farming in A19 was too easy, but this new change is IMO unacceptable. It seems like Fun Pimps knew farming was too easy but had no ideas on how to actually make the farming system more interesting or challenging, so instead they simply made it less rewarding, and they overcorrected. Basically, if you play with other people (more mouths to feed) you have to designate a practically full time farmer or everyone has to burn skill points to spec into farming. In A19, the harvest may be less with an unskilled player, but you couldn't ruin the farm. If the devs wanted to make getting food harder, or just make farming harder, they should have made the system more interesting so that it is more enriching. Instead players who like farming just got punished for no good reason. I have too many ideas on how they could have done this better to mention here, but a couple ideas would be to make the perennial plants stay planted on harvest (aloe, blueberries, coffee, etc.), but have a lower seed yield, and annuals (corn, potatoes, etc.) you lose the plant but have a higher seed yield. Another idea would be that farm plots lose fertility over time, requiring you to either replace the block altogether or have a mechanic to enrich spent soil. You could also make Living Off the Land work differently, so instead of giving you a bigger harvest, maybe LOtL buffs the farm plots that you place, and that ultimately effects the harvest. This would be a lot more realistic (harvesting takes almost no skill for most crops, but planning/planting/tending gets better with experience and knowledge.) Seed Saver could be a later tier perk and give you a 100% chance of seed on any plant you harvest. Anyway, lots of ways to do this right. I know farming is probably not high on Fun Pimps priority list, and going the route I'm suggesting would take a lot of work. But in any event, I would like to see farming become more robust and rewarding, and hopefully more realistic.
I don't mind, and sometimes love to grind, but to grind AND get screwed is no fun! As long as you grind and get rewarded for grinding, that's the reason to grind!
@@urduib If you have ten seeds you should be ok. It is SUPER annouying, but at that point even if you get four seeds out of ten you weill get ahead eventually, I just hate the RNG of that. You have to spec right into living off the land and all in it slowing all you other stuff way down!
The definition of "Farm" Means that you get more than you planted. If you get less then it's completely pointless and doesn't have any attraction to it. Instead of trying to make that part of the game more difficult, they should expand on it. Otherwise the better option is to just do a few quests and then trade for the food management items. Attempting to make the game less linear, made it more linear. You know what? Since the last time I watched 7d2d it was alpha 15 if I remember correctly, and since then they added lots of new tools and weapons. How about they just add a tool that you can unlock at midway through the skill level, to get a positive gain for seeds?
Our group of players work the game as a community, gatherers, hunters, and farming to support the team. No longer with farming failing the chances of success is reduced and the comradere falls apart, game gets boring and players stop coming in. FIX FARMING, maybe set it as it was in 19.
While I agree farming should be harder, this is not the way. Replanting is a chore and the RNG of losing a seed make it even less fun. Forcing people into Lv3 LoTL in order to farm sustainably is wrong, choices should never be 'all or nothing'.
This change was a shot in the heart as I only play this game to farm and make beautiful bases with my friends. I feel like this game is already SUPER grindy and adding more to the grind just makes it less fun. A simple fix would have been nerfing/removing stat bonuses from certain foods.
Having been in this game sine A1 (a bit over 7600 hrs.) one of the main themes from the FP is getting people out and exploring the game. The appeal of the game for me has been to zap zombies, build, explore, loot, avoid getting my face ripped off and having my entrails ripped out and eaten. I've never been much for farming as I nomad quite a bit, but for those that like to farm, why punish them for it? Making and open world game then trying to force people to play it a certain way is counter intuitive. The appeal of this game is that it is not scripted. You can have the best weapons in the game and still get hosed if you get cocky. Forgot to reload your weapons after that last firefight, then get jump in a confined space: ye ole reload animation death. We've all been there. It's like we are being forced into multiplayer. Spec into this; Spec into that; Spec into the other thing... Appeal to the button pushers. Next a certain combo of keys pushed during a certain animation and you can kill more zombies. 'I know: let's make this cool as F game then suck all the Fun out of playing it.'
Hello Robert! Yes, especially as they reduced complexity removing hoe, and fertilizer... and now they introduce pointless grind to compensate. Not a good design choice. :)
I really hated when they made quality 6 items loot exclusive. Why give us the option to skill into crafting ans trading if its always the worse option now? Since quality 6 became uncraftable i have not crafted a singe weapon, tool or armor to use it besides the quality 1 iron tools.
One of the many reasons I have shelved this game. Until the company decides to stop punishing players forcing player to play how they want them to play, I refuse to play their game. After many years of this, I have lost interest. They've had almost a whole decade to learn from their mistakes, but they keep on repeating them.
I really likes the farming in A19, but understand why they would want to change it. I think there really needs to be an adjustment that doesn't make farming so tedious though.
I think the ideal solution to the tedium of having to replant every single Harvest would be to implement NPC survivors that you could rescue and have work for you in exchange for a supply of food and a bedroll. They could do things like Harvest and replant trees in a certain area or harvest and replant crops in a certain area or even generate a small amount of loot if assigned to a Scavenging station similar to what happens in Fallout 4. This could add another challenge by not having them resurrect if they die or even requiring them for you to resurrect if you die, and having them increase the number of attacking zombies during hordes while also generating Heat
A good solution to fix this is the use fertilization of the farm plot. When you Fertilize the farm plot using a item, the block is actually upgraded. When the crop fully grows into a superior version, the block underneath reverts back to regular farm plot.
@@ChePennyDK yea, and thank god it didnt use up the fertilizer, that was a pain in the ass to get. had to go rummaging around in coffins, waiting 9 hours for the cement mixer to churn some out, or go strip mine an entire burnt forest for it.
Great video! I did one on the same topic just testing out the farming. It's not profitable without the farming perk, you need a larger farm to get what you used to get with a smaller farm because your turning half your harvest into seeds now. AND it's a tedious chore replanting all the seeds Everytime. I'm personally not a fan of the change. If they made the farmer perk leave the seedlings in the ground after harvesting I wouldnt mind it, but that's a HUGE quality of life issue.
Why even get a seed back just to physically replant. Why not save the pointless waste of time and just make the plant 50% to stay? Maybe that should be the first level of farming. Then second be a chance to get the seed or better yet a better chance for the plant to stay. Third sure maybe you want to make farming a little more involved with reality. So third is a better chance of the plant staying plus the seed. Making it less grindy with also not making it too simple. If you got multiple players I'm sure fun pimps wants to make for some player interactions and team building. So a farmer, hunter, cook. Is one of the people you want. Miner, crafter is a huge thing. Then the scavenger and gatherer. If not a team it makes player types valuable. In which case I think vending machines should be more available to promote player interactions supplementing losses in skill trees choices.
While the seed drop balances out to 50% over time, even with level 2 LotL a single back very luck harvest can screw over your farm, and leave you needing to farm more just to fill the current farm, which shouldn’t be a concern. Honestly I’d rather have it so without LotL you got a seed and 1 corn when harvesting, as the 5 plants to make a single seed is a bit crazy. As you point out, a player shouldn’t need 80 plots just to barely produce enough food, meds & tea. I completely agree with your changes, as my biggest issue is the busywork of constantly replanting, hell I’d put the 3 points into LotL just to avoid being forced to do that. But I do like the 90% reverting to a seedling, but I’d suggest there also be a farming magazine which would increase it by 10% so at lvl 3 it was 100%
Hello John! Yes, it's the grind of it that is without purpose. Less food is fine, I don't mind. But grinding for food? I might just boil meat in bulk and chomp that.
@@Vedui42 After some though....What about server performance and people who dont farm, so they will run around harvesting the world crops and they dont respawn unless a quest is there, I can see a server with 20 players without crops.
the books is a great idea but i would wall the auto-planting behind finding them all. i know its tedious to replant by hand, but on the other hand i feel more accomplished if i had to work for my yield.
alternatively you can grow your farm to be considerably bigger with lotl 3 so it's neglegible to have to worry about food. or just go to a snow biome and never have to worry about food again. the animal spawns are insane
@@Vedui42 Never bothered me. In fact, I enjoyed it. And I had huge fields. And as for grinding, I had a base in A16 with about 1000 wooden spikes that had to be replaced after each horde. The little bit of grinding to replant the fields is nothing compared to that.
I don't understand why you can't have farm animals. In any apocalypse, animals would be a precious commodity. It would be great to have farming communities on a server that would add immersion to the game.
The problem is that farming is too OP and basically makes hunger moot. The obvious solution is to make corn always return a seed, but make it take like a month to grow. Just like real life.
If the Fun Pimps felt that players were growing too much food, they could have easily fixed the problem by making it take more time for plants to produce crops. They didn’t need to change the alpha 19 mechanic in any other way.
This. Longer growth times, super simple solution with no more grind and tediousness. Farms would need to be bigger to sustain same number of people, but there would only be about same amount of work since you'd need to harvest less often.
from the new b231 update released today: "Living off the Land level 2 now has a 50% chance to harvest 1 additional crop". looking forward to know how it does impact farming, and make it sustainable hopefully. not that it really matters to me; i've already spent the points somewhere else and sitting pretty with 2 stacks of Bacon and Eggs. : )
With all the replanting needed farming is still too tedious to bother about. Personally I dont care if its inly 1 crop per week from a plant, just spare me from repetative actions with aiming and clicking at the same god damn pod over and over again.
I don't think it is a bug in the game, it is to make survival more difficult. Most don't like it this way and I am sure there are some that do but all I can say to TFP is yeah nah mate, this won't do because it makes it too grindy and takes the fun out of it IMHO.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I like the new farming. Just seems to make it more of a challenge despite the grind. You may be able to eventually get a garden going that will be able to sustain you, and I think this new system will make it that more satisfying Plus if TFP do implement the outfit system, will make having the farmer outfit worthwhile.
Yeah I agree, A19 I had a farm of 100 plots and there would be weeks go by without me harvesting them because I didn't have room to store the produce! Its not survival horror if you're not going hungry every other day! In the original version (when vultures were giant bumble bees) the two most common deaths for me were mauled by dogs and starvation. Its been a long long time since I died of starvation!
Totally agree with not having to replant seeds, its very grindy. I had an idea that would make it balanced and more enjoyable, plus "NEVER" have to replant at level 1 of Living off the land. 1. Reduce the amount of planted crop yield to 1 for all (Just so you can't have too much too early), with no points in "LOTL" (Living off the land) you have a 50% chance to break a crop. 2. At level 1 of "LOTL" never break a planted crop, and have a 50% chance of an additional planted crop (So average about 15 for 10 plots). 3. At level 2 of "LOTL" reduce the cost of plots and double planted crop yield. Then un-lock the recipe for an iron scythe (Iron scythe can harvest a 3x3 area of grown planted crops). 4. At level 3 of "LOTL" double planted crop yield, double wild crop yield, and add an additional 50% chance to get a 3rd planted crop. Then un-lock the recipe for a steel scythe (steel scythe can harvest a 5x5 area of grown planted crops). Maybe the balance of crop yield could be tweaked for further game stages if what above falls short. Oh and I forgot to mention that your never get a chance for seeds when harvesting (for balance sake lol).
I don't mind it. The hunters need to invest a few points to get amounts of meat reliably, so the farmers should too. I think a lot of the new version was directed towards extending early game. What is annoying to me is the difficulty of finding 5 acids to make a chemstation. I had the money to buy one from a trader but it vanished from the short time from when my girl found it and when I looked. I tried to give her the money but it was gone. All in the span of a few minutes.
You don't need a thing to get boatloads of meat. One trip to the trader last night, and I got 300+ pieces of meat with no skill investment and that was 1 km one way. 6 bears, 4 wildcats, 3 wolves and a couple of rabbits and chickens, give or take. Farming shouldn't take so much to BREAK EVEN, much less profit.
Hello! I have so much meat I don't need to farm. I just boil it up :) Since water is (thankfully!!!) easy to get in truckloads, boiled meat is the best right now. Less food I would agree with. More tedious and grind? nah. I wanna build, explore, fight. Not keep crafting and replanting farms :)
it was part of the changes. seeds, seed recipes, and food recipes are more common in shamway crates. Seeds are found more often in produce bins. I think it was done to offset the lose of seeds from the farming changes and thus encourages you to stock pile the seeds/ loot more frequently
The seed and food recipe drops are significantly bumped up in A20. Particularly in cabinets, shamway boxes, and mail boxes. There's also a lot more rabbits & chickens.
Yes. It's kinda amusing. In order to not have more food, they make farming tedious and grindy. But then we lack seeds. So then they increase seeds everywhere. So that ... you can farm and get more food, when that was the whole problem they were trying to solve. :)
I do feel like part of this is a positive thing as it give more value to seeds that you find in the world and it makes food more of a valuable resource. But yeah the negative aspect is that you cant really capitalize on focusing farming points, except for more crops ofc... My solution would be something like this: Each level increase in the "Living of the land" perk would be that a certain percentage of seed dropping increases. I would feel like 75 percent might be a good max number for maxed perk. Instead of the crop breaking when harvesting, you can harvest that crop on three seperate times before it "breaks". meaning you harvest it and it has to regrow and then you can harvest it again until the third time when it breaks. This might be a good middle ground for this feature to feel both immersive and balanced as you can capitalize with the perk but its still relatively useful for no or low level perk.
The bug for not consuming blocks when placing them happens whenever you load in with the cheats option enabled. You can still set it to off and use F1 to enter dm or cm, then it only doesn’t consume whenever cm is on.
Yeah :) It's a bit of a weird toggle, as it should be IF your are in creative mode ... then duplicate. If not, don't. But now it seems it's enough to have cheats enabled in the world and it's always like that. :)
If you place your farm plots on top of the ground instead of digging down 1 to make it level you can put the mushrooms on the side of the farm plot and it should count as being placed on a farm plot. I just modded it out myself to make it so they no longer break but give less food.
The only thing I have a big problem with is the replanting grind. My fix would be to replant automatically if you have a seed of the same plant you just harvested in the inventory. You can keep everything the way it is and push the convenience of not having to replant towards the end game when you can afford to stock seeds naturally. This would also add another layer of choice early on of weather you want to use your early harvests for food or for replanting. If I stockpile my seeds, I'll need to do a food run, if I use it I can do more quests.
I was actually thinking of the increased seed chance per farming level myself. the new farming method may be grindy but having to make fewer seeds as you level up does help with that grind a bit and I actually wouldn't mind making and planting a few extra seeds and this way it feels like a "seasoned farmer" will be ALOT more valuable than earlier for sustainablity of your farm.
Giving extra would help! But I think just making it less chance to break the plant, like in A19, would just help even further. It's already grindy to farm, seeds, plant, harvest, and ultimately it's just something most players would happily skip some grind in :)
hunting vs farming day 31: have gotten over 2000 raw meat total with little to no effort ive got a 7x7 farm of random stuff because i dont have the seeds yet but its starting to get somewhere but its been alot of work and no reward so far unless you consider getting more seeds to wait more expectations: once i get to the point i can have the entire bunker farm 7x7 or 49 slots yeilding max with all 3 perks of a single type, ill be able to have in abundance the singular item. it will never give enough food to live on by itself but missions kinda spam food at me to the point of filling 2 storage boxs and the 2k meat cooked down to 200 grilled meat has been more than enough, but farms for specialty stuff can be usefull like coffee, super corn etc i did perfer it when you punched a full grown and it reverted back to a baby plant and you got stuff from it. felt grindy then lol, guessing the devs want farming to peak at harvesting seeds you find oppose to replanting if your gonna spend those perk points tho, throw it into maxing hunter and youll have plenty of meat. save farming for ultra endgame investment
Indeed ! I end up with so much meat, find eggs, random potatoes and corn and make meat stew, buy stuff when needed, and am just fine without bothering with a dedicated farm :)
When I play solo, I tend to focus on certain skills for a solo run. Things change a bit when I'm playing with my friends. We go into one base (or split into a couple of bases) and have people focus their skill trees on one or 2 skills in early game. We'll have the miner, the one who makes vehicles, the one who focuses on food, someone who's good at breaking down vehicles, the person with high looting skills opening all the good containers, the one with good barter, all with skills in various combat types (so if we find a high level weapon, it's not a waste because nobody is specced into it). If the loot, quest rewards, and what's available at the vendor hasn't been drastically reworked for Alpha 20, we should be able to find plenty of food outside of farming. If we want to focus on farming, then we need to spec into that skill tree a bit (tradeoff being we don't need to make looting runs as often, but we've got a safer space for crops). It seems like maybe higher levels of living off the land might also make seed recipes a bit cheaper per seed might make it worth it. I remember our Alpha 19 playthrough we had cropped food and seeds filling a couple of boxes.
Same, I had so much food from my farm (to support 2 ppl) it was basically never going to run out. Didn’t even have to harvest every time because I had so much
A19 had too much food. A20? I do fine with just boiled meat, bacon n eggs, and just buying it from trader and looting, and that's early game. Mid-late game, you might as well just buy all the food at traders and save the grind. :)
Tedious is the best word to describe this. Yes, farming was OP and needed nerfing to match the new food scarcity. That's fine. I get it. But they took it too far, and now it's not fun. I like your ideas on how to correct it. Now, if the Pimps will just listen... How long before the mod community comes up with their own fix? 😉
Right now I just alternate growing seeds and doing a full harvest. It is more anoying having to replant but its not that bad. Every time I replant I reevaluate what we need and a 12x11 plot easily feeds 4 people.
it makes sense so other source of food like hunting, looting and trader have some use their availability is not just for starting player but they should be useful till end game. so if you run out seed to plant then it's time for some hunting and looting or you can sell useless or excess stuff to get some dukes to buy food from trader. also remember TFP logic harder = fun
i am not against having to replant seeds each harvest, it just has to be something that can be maintained. what would be the point of farming without points in it? the easiest adjustment would be the lower the cost of crafting seeds.
It kinda makes sense though, if your not a farmer in real life, it's pretty hard to have a sustainable garden. I'm okay with that change. I just HATE having to replant the seeds every time.
id prefer if they buffed the farm plots, like reg. farm plot = you get seeds back at 25%, and add advanced/fertile plots for 50% seed return, and then a greenhouse growbed plot for 75% return. id prefer something like this.
To be fair you only need more than a couple large meals a day if you're playing with non-default length days. The trade off there though is that you have a lot more daylight to get things done, and more time between horde nights.
Living off the land: 1 lvl - 25% to double the crops and no need to replanting (you lose seeds if you dont have this perk), farm plots cost 25% less 2 lvl - 50% to double the crops, all seed recipe unlocked 3 lvl - 100% to double the crops, farm plots cost 50% less First lvl is good, but not doing much but you can now farm a little Second lvl give you a solid chance to expand your farmig ground cause othervise - you need to trade or look up everywhere to find seeds Third lvl for those who invest in farming already, just solid endgame choice I think my take on this is pretty solid and more balanced. Also, maybe fun pimps can lock the farming in the forest zone only, if they want more challange, but less grind. Making 2 or more bases is still better then replant those fucking thing all the time
To be honest, LOL 2 is quite pointless. As with LOL 1, getting 10-20 plots is still fine. LOL 2 requires more points into fortitude, which is fine if that's your aim, but it won't be for many for quite a while. And once you hit mid game, looting, getting cash and buying food, boiling meat, will get you much further with less grind :)
I’m on day 20 in my latest run and I have level 3 living off the land with over 50 plots and STILL don’t have a sufficient blueberry, mushroom or hops reserves due to bad seed gathering. I’ve always liked building up a nice farm in game so it’s typically something I focus on very early. I can only make a few beers, a few veggie stews and maybe 2 or 3 blueberry pies after a full harvest. In A19 I would have been had plenty of yield to make what I want by day 10. And I usually like to sell excess food so I can have a little extra cash (thankfully loot is a bit better in A20 or else my in game wallet would have taken a serious blow) I’ve gone through like 4 big harvests and only within the last two maybe I’ve finally built up enough corn, potato and pumpkin to be start making a good food reserve. And that’s with me heavily prioritizing farming.
Yeah I find it superbly annoying to harvest.. then need to count out how many new seeds to make, craft them all, then switch to hotbar and replant. Annoying!
I watched this video with some concerns as in our games I'm usually the farmer. However, we're in day 10, I maxed out LOL, and have rows of 14 seeds of corn, super corn, potatoes, yucca, pumpkins, plus a backup of 14 seeds of each variety. We have an average profit of around 30 of each produce each growing cycle, so currently our food inventory consists of 7 stacks of meat stew, 6 stacks of yucca juice and have at least 60 of each of our various produce. So, for us, farming has not been an issue at all. We have been lucky finding more than enough seeds and meat along with the main recipes.
I'm at day 42 in my solo stream game, LOL 2, and never have any food issues despite never really farming. I mean I have a few plots, but I just buy or harvest what I come across, and I have more than enough food :) The point being is that nerfing farming like this just means people tend to stay away from it, as many are finding that scavenging and just running farming-light (or not at all) gives you more than enough food anyhow. :) It's a waste of what was a cool part of the game in my view.
Im someone who plays with at least 2-5 friends so we used to have like 30 plots on A19 and this usualy sustained us.. just replanting was a grind so this is a very bad rework. Hope they fix this otherwhise it wont take long for a mod to fix the problem :)
I think the problem with it now is how good getting seeds is vs how sad not getting seeds is. Living 3 gives you 6 now, so if you get a seed, you get +6 food, but if you don't get the seed, you only get +6 -5 for seed = +1. Thus, you're on a 50% getting 5 more food, which just seems wacked as hell
@@Vedui42 Using E in Undead Legacy allows you to harvest, AND applies the modifiers. UL also has a very simple, intuitive slot-lock mechanic. There's a lot of little tweaks that FP could do that wouldn't affect balance in the slightest, we're just gonna have to keep pushing
I also got to thinking, and it would only apply to a small percentage of players sure, but this could make a dedicated farmer build more rewarding in a multi-player environment. The idea of setting up as a farmer/ food truck never really worked when it was so easy to go self sufficient with minimal investment. When the plant never broke, you didn't really need the skills to get to that point, they just made getting there more time and space efficient. Now that you need full investment to go infinitely renewable, building a farm is an actual character choice you work towards, and not just something you can plant and forget on any playthrough. And we could finally make some meaningful use of player vending! Lol. It does still feel heavy handed though after getting used to the last version, especially for solo play.
Oh the farmers I've spoken to have given up farming in A20 as a result. Dedicated farming is now off the table. Imagine 1 farmer, 5 person team. That person will be spending 30 mins every few days just to harvest, make seeds, and replanting. Most people don't enjoy that :) We're talking hundreds of farm plots.
@@Vedui42 oh yeah I'll easily agree it needs tuning. It could either come back the other way a little bit, or add more perks on the plus side. The tricky part is that the sweet spot between too generous and stingy is kind of like finding the spot on some shower knobs between artic and boiling. I do still believe it can settle in a better spot than it started.
I can imagine just one simple change would help balance out this whole issue with farming. Perhaps Living off the Land rank 2/3 could reduce the price of crafting seeds from 5 crops down to 4? This way, the second rank would mean you would have a sustainable farm (and over time, profit) while rank 3 would be slightly overkill but not completely overpowered. Other than having to replant seeds again and the whole 50% chance to get a seed back thing, I'd say the next biggest issue is the player is forced to max out the perk if they want a fully fledged farm and not some tiny garden.
Yep! It would still make it grindy, and i don't see why they would 50% give back a seed. Just have it 50 % to not break. But it's possible the current engine can't do random downgrades, and that's why it's like this.
Nope. factoring eating for replensihing health, the farming is Bricked. dang it. possibly a MASSIVE mistake with game balance. :( great video as ALWAYS Vedui ;) keep them coming my friend!
On a recent playthrough, I eventually took the perks so that I could start making the good stuff. I harvested them twice, which was mainly so that I could get enough seeds to fill all the plots I had set up, and haven't used a single bit of the harvest for food since. I find so much good food while doing trader quests that I never need to make any. Ever. I had to add more food storage to hold all the raw meat I've collected over time that I never cook. Even with maxed out Healing Factor, I don't go through my food as fast as I find it. So yeah, my take is the new system is bad and definitely not worth the 3 perk points. I dunno, maybe if you're playing with a group of people and thus had more mouths to feed? But I doubt it.
Yes :) Which is why it's such an odd design choice. Make it grindy and boring so people hate it and don't use it, then FLOOD the world with food so we don't have to either. I normally only go 1 lol to get double yield in POI's and wild, and if I do LOL 3 it's coz I'm building and want to make a farm for the fun of it, not because I'm out of food :D
It's kinda ironic, they heavily simplified the survival and experience aspects from pre-A17 but the whole farming scarcity theme feels like it would come from that era.
Yes! Farming was more complex before with hoe'ing ground, finding and then applying fertilizer etc. But ... that was too complex, so now we're... grinding it instead :P Which by the way doesn't reduce food as such, it just wastes time and energy :)
i've noticed a lot on streamer/youtubers are using 10 crop plots for this example. in alpha 19 I reliably lived off of 7-8 crop plots for each of the 3 main crops (corn, potatoes, mushrooms). So 16 crop plots and 8 mushroom spores. In terms of yield I never went past the second point of lofl till late game. I did it for the crop plot resource reduction more than anything. Now in alpha 20 my game bugged and even with 1 point in loft my game i only got 2 crops for my planted seeds, but that's besides the point. Using the 8 crop plot method you will harvest 32 crops per 8 plants and receive on average 4 seeds. after you make 4 more seeds you'll be left with 16 crops. which is enough for 8 vegetable stews. I personally only use food for hunger/thirst so I could usually get away with 8 vegetables stews every 120mins of in game play which is the growth rate for corn. if you have bad rng you can either supplement food from other sources (caned, grilled meat, ect) or stockpile seeds from good rng/lootables to off set the times you get bad rng when harvesting your crops. Personally, I think the fix is really simple. just add a +25% chance of reclaiming a seed to either tier 2 of loft or tier 3. Putting it in tier 3 gives a much larger incentive to maxing the skill tree, but putting it on tier 2 makes it far more attractive in the early to mid game. Now, you had brought up skill books and I think a farming series would be awesome. They already have the hunting series and the survival series, but having a farming series or even changing some books from the survival series would be awesome. And I personally believe the most important book should be "when harvesting crop player planted crops the crop with return to a seedling instead of providing a seed" That said I'm not sure what they would do for the other 6 books. unless they changed the perk to be additive instead of multiplicative. meaning rank 1 provides 3 crops, rank 3 provides 5. Then they could forgo adding the +25% seed retention on tier 2 or 3 of loft and make it a book. Then add another book that gives a bonus +1 crop from harvested plants. which puts you back to 4 crops at rank 1 and 6 at rank six. This would then provide 2 to 3 books in the series and the rest could do with cooking/clothing you wear giving a bonus.
I think reducing the grind of breaking plants all the time would help, and buffing LOL level 2. :) Less food is fine. But not through artificial "I'm too bored to farm more" kind of design :)
I think balancing the seed drop is good fix, I don't have an issue with the rest. The replant and seedling is a good idea with the seed drop it makes it more of a reward. Along this train of thought, I wish they added a chance that on a repair of tools and weapons there was a chance of destroying the item. For example if I get level 6 Pistol I pretty much have a weapon for the rest of the game, but adding a chance that with the repair kit you have 90 percent success rate than sweet, but think of how it would effect the play through. Maybe the chance is based on the level of equipment and maybe based on a repair skill attribute, plus repairing at a workbench gives you a bonus or negates the chance. Currently once you get that level 6 gear you are done, just need repair kits. But adding the risk of losing that equipment will make you rethink repairing out in the wild. Maybe trader repair station for 100% success rate.
In A19 solo it was easy once you got your farm up and i had so much food i really didn't harvest food until every 2-3 days. So in A20 when i heard about the nerf i went back and forth. i hated it and then remember how much food had and was ok with the nerf and the thing i hate now is replanting. On default an hour goes by so fast so taking the time to replant so many seeds is so ugh. But this is why i love 7 Days is the mods. Don't like something/vanilla game, mod it. I use a mod that to make seeds cost less for each level in Living off the Land. But i do like the idea of having a chance to not break the seed item. As a beginner modder off the top of my head i don't think i can do that with mods and seems like more on the coding side.
Its a simple change you just need to find the part of code where is says degradation and change it from nothing to a seed, if you have A19 installed you might see and compare the code for farming or vegetables themselves
@@karolstadnik6275 yeah i just realized the seeds cost less mod doesn't work on A20. im trying to figure out how to make it work again. and yeah was going to reinstall a19 again and see whats the difference is and alright i will look for that thanks. EDIT: Actually Seeds Cost Less mod actually works was another mod conflicting. Some reason the maker of Pick Up plants added seeds cost less recipes.xml file.
I think A19 had too much food. A20 has too little AND adds tedious grind for no reason. If we want less food, reduce food but remove the grind, and it makes more sense :) You're right, modding this is pretty straight forward.
Wish they took the stardew valley route and made 4 adjacent plants of the same kind have a chance to turn into a big 4 block crop , or increase the amount of times a plant can be harvested before it wilts. Hell I would be down for plants that can only be planted in certain biomes to encourage more base building .
I feel like they could fix the farming system pretty easily. Just make the second and third perk give you a 75% chance instead of 50% chance to get seeds. It makes replanting easier.
I totally agree this needs reworking to a fairer system. Maybe a higher tier/ s that address the inequality of seeds per harvested plant. I do like the idea of plats just going to seedlings after their harvested
I would love to not have to replant every single time. I'm going to be doing farming 3 either way on my 2 person team, but I really really would love to not replant every single time.
They buffed Rank 2 of LOTL since this video was posted. Farming is actually more effective than A19. It's a bit more tedious since you need to craft seeds, but you ultimately harvest more crops. You do need Rank 3 of LOTL though. Anything below that is not much help. I farm for a 2 player server and I have a surplus of Meat Stew, left over crops, and seeds and I only have 50 plots, growing 25 Potato and 25 Corn.
I get why they did this because it did get to a point where food was something that just didnt matter any more at endgame but I think it needs to be better for people who dedicate to the farming build. Maybe make living off the land more skill point demanding or something. Or add more levels to it like level 4 and level 5 could be added to give better seed chance but they cost 2 or 3 skill points to get each one.
Yes, A19 had too much food. I think many/most agree. I just don't want the GRIND ... adding complexity is fine, to slow down... but grind? That's no fun.
@@Vedui42 Ok so after the update I think its fixed kinda.... My friend is the one doing our farming atm and apparently he is getting 6 per crop now.... Seems like this helps but I think its just keeping the seeds/destroy crop grind thing still there. So we now get plenty of seeds from the crop but again it gets a bit grindy having to constantly re-plant every single crop. I would rather see a chance to not destroy crop or something at this point.
I find it odd that they changed both the farming and food drops at the same time. If they lowered food, and left farming, fine. IF they did the opposite, fine. But they're trying to change both mechanics in the same patch and its over-compensated. Ive been very low on food this patch, and while that's probably the point, they seem to have swung too far in the other direction.
This is what TFP do, they nerf too hard and then give back to whatever people will tolerate. It is a valid strategy in game design, these guys just use it as their default. So, if they hold true to form, there will be an adjustment in an upcoming patch or the outfit thing will compensate a little. Either way, farming will remain below A19 levels.
The tedium of replanting is my main gripe about the new system. If they want to reduce the yield of each crop, that's fine with me, so long as they do a guaranteed automatic replanting with each harvest and a minimum yield of one product at max level. As you pointed out, replanting 80 plots after every harvest is not enjoyable and is an unnecessary waste of time. I found that if I'm starting out with just enough potatoes to make a few seeds, I will end up with a net loss until the highest skill level, which makes farming for yields impossible until the late game.
Easy Fixes/Solutions: 1-reduce seed loss (as per the Vedui) at all three levels (45/60/90) 2-accept the grind, late game farming only, live off canned food and boiled meat, gather all rotted flesh as you go (mine the rest once ready), save all seeds, convert most fresh food to seeds. Start once you have 20 of a type of plant you want to grow plus level two farmer. 3-Meatatarian diet: boiled meat, plants are what food eat 4-no seed loss, adjust the yield to two per plant at level three (other levels unlock the seeds you can make). This way ten plots will yield up to 20 of whatever the plant is and you will need to keep harvesting regularly. Adjust the recipes based on a three day consumption cycle so forgetting to harvest is a bit costly 4-reduce the seed cost at level one from 5 to 4, and again at level three from 4 to 3 MY suggestion: (I'll post it on TFP forum eventually) -change: no replanting entire crop each harvest, just replant damaged seeds (If I harvest 100 plots, maybe I make and replant 10-20 seeds) -at zero: don't even bother -at level one: you are barely holding on, perhaps 35% seed loss, 2 yield per plant (ten plot yield would be 20 pieces, lose 3-4 seeds, convert 15/20 to 3/4 seeds, you get a lucky RNG, you get maybe +5). Slow, but not guaranteed to fail either. Level one should be barely sustainable with some luck, but NOT a death sentence. -level two should be slightly better: seed cost reduced to 4 with same 35% seed loss (resulting in a 20 yield, 3/4 seed loss, convert 12/16, keep +4/+8). Still have incentive to upgrade level or farm size. -level three should be significantly ahead: Seed loss reduced to 10% (to remove grind), seed cost reduced to 3 (resulting in a 20 yield, 2 seed, 6 convert, +16 keep). Cornmeal for days (don't tell Glock9).
I agree with you, farming and self sustaining was something I really enjoyed about this game, but now it's pointless. I'm not a big looter so I always look forward to building, now I keep running out of food!
Don't also forget that for many players the fun part is just to shoot everything that has a pulse or doesn't lol, if you farm and cook , and you can sale to the trader to make Dukes then is another reason to level farming.
I suspect people will just do quests, loot, explore, and get meat, boil meat, bacon n eggs, and buy food at vending and traders. As soon as you hit mid game, you'll end up getting thousands of dukes per loot run, which easily will buy a lot of food.
i think the correct way to fix farming is to 1.) make seeds very rare but last forever. 2.) make crop plots be rare or expensive to acquire. over time you'll eventually acquire all you need for food but it will be an issue for the early/mid game. i don't think that farming needs to be something you have to manage yourself. it should be something that produces and all you have to do is collect.
I'm going to highlight this for you guys now. The change in how farming works was not about stopping those who choose the living off the land skill tree from obtaining infinite food. That was the entire point of that skill tree. The change was designed to allow those people to continue to get infinite food via their farms, while stopping those who put no points in living off the land from also being able to create farms that yield infinite food.
No it wasn't :) It was to reduce the food in the game. However as you correctly highlighted separately, we now have tonnes of food from POI farms, from hunting, and then there's also traders and looting. As a result LOL 1 is sufficient for most players, as you find/buy everything else you need. So it's a design decision to accomplish a goal that the game then immediately breaks by giving tonnes of food in other ways. That is the definition of a broken design :)
Fuck it. At max farming, craft a tool that harvests the crops without breaking the seed. Without the tool, it's how it is now. In order to better buff it, make it so you have to water the plants or they ave a chance to die. Boom. Done.
so the math is pretty much this R0-20 corn ~5 seeds R1-40 corn ~5 seeds R2-40 corn ~5 seeds R3-60 corn ~5 seeds it takes 5 corn to make 1 seed so R0- -5 corn ~10 seeds R1-15 corn ~10 seeds R2-15 corn ~10 seeds R3-35 corn ~10 seeds In A19 you got 30 corn at R3 LotL so it's a small buff on average for dedicated farmers. What I think they should do is rank 2 should add back the auto replant feature from A19 at the cost of 1 seed or 3 corn (or whatever type of plant). That way rank 2 indirectly increase plant yields from 15 on average to 25 on average and rank 3 from 35 to 45.
The big thing with open world sandbox is that the player should be able to do what they want to do. I really get sick of games that make things hard because they want you to play how they want you to. This farming stuff should be adjustable - if someone wants to create a mega-farm, let them be able to do that.
Why don't they just make them take longer to harvest? That would be easy and you wouldn't feel so cheated out with seeds. And they don't have any variation on when crops are harvestable to make much of an impact on anything. If you wanted to make farming realistic, where you're getting one harvest over a long period of time, you should be able to adjust it to that.
Like someone mentioned before, if you dont like it you can add anytime a mod for example a one which will make the seeds cheaper. The devs has made a mistake making the farming too easy and we used to it ignoring living of the land perk and doing a fine farming. I can understand the change from a dev perspective
To me α19's farming is a little OP, build a small rooftop farm and your food is self sustained. So I think TFP's idea is to make farming harder so you have to put skill points into Living off the land. But they just overdone it, now it's almost pointless put skill point into farming.
@Toren1156 I don't like it too. I think they changed farming too much and in a bad way. Now I just do quest and eat all the canisters from vending machines instead.
Hi Ashley. Actually TFP made farming simpler. We used to need to find a hoe, then hoe ground, then find fertilizer, then fertilize ground, and then grow. TFP decided it was too complex, so made a farm plot and that's it. But then found it's so easy we get so much food, and instead of making it complex, they made it grindy and tedious. That's the worst way to resolve food abundance :)
ANYTHING is better than the way it's done right now. I like your suggestion, and I like Saven's as well. What I can say is that if they had a book series that the capstone for it was "you always get a seed from harvesting a plot", then that would be a late game total fix for this issue. As is, I've played around a hundred hours since release and I can tell you, I haven't once spec'd into fort for farming in that time at all since alpha 20 released. It simply isn't worth it, still, even a solid month after you released this video. Where are the funpimps?
the thing about farming is IN ALPHA 19 i never spec into farming until late game.. i get most of my food from meat killing animals & from canned foods found in poi's.. i usually save all the veg i find & make seeds out of them & just keep planting them & making more seeds... never consuming them.. id spend a lot of the early game hungry.. but, by the time im mid level to high level id have so many farm crops that I could live sustainable for the rest of the game.. for example.. my last playthru i stopped doing poi's on around day 80 & spent 60 days purely mining & building bases.. 60 days where i didnt need to look for food or water.. i dunno if it will be that easy on alpha 20 though..
as someone who framed a lot in a19 i like the new farming. and its the fun pimps game and we cant really say if they think we are getting more food or not.
i think the best way to fix it is. they can reduce the amount of crop to craft seeds when you level the living of the land. instead of reducing the crafting cost of farm plots i %100 prefer the crafting cost of seeds the second way i think of is they can intruduce a new nature related magazine series for eggs vegetables etc and put a magazine or magazine bonus to get seed more often or 100% chance.
One point in living off the land will make farming sustainable. Not by a bunch, but it will be sustainable with a small gain so you can grow a modest farm. A single point isn't a huge investment in making it viable. Without that point, farming will be very painful and you will be dependent on the seeds that you loot (which has been increased.) Maybe I'm not to worried about it because I typically put one into living off the land anyways because I love the double harvest. I'm not a fan of the extra busy work of making more seeds, but whatever... It's not broken, it's a change.
Even with 1-2 points, farming is barely sustainable. All you need is a bad roll, which happens easily as it's 50-50, and your farming is set back a week :) Adding grind to limit food is a broken design, as there are so many better ways of reducing food than adding grind.
You grow a seed. You get 2 of the "fruit" but it takes 5 of the "fruit" to make another seed. All arable farming scales with its own produce IRL. Always has. Otherwise... well, we'd all be dead A plant has to produce enough of it's fruit AND seed for scaling and eating to be possible. Even with 3 points in the skill tree you need to destroy the plats to get 1 seed - and one of the fruit (it triples 2 per plant to 6 - 5 of which you need to craft to seed - just to replace the plant leaving 1 to eat. So even with the skill tree maxxed out - you can never get ahead.
If you like me usually play with a friend the farming will be very time consuming. There are a lot of fields but staying for longer in a server and they will all be farmed.
Most I speak to seem to HATE farming now. But how do we fix? This is MY take on changing and improving it!
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There are a lot of things to like in 7DTD. And some things to dislike. This has to be the first in the hate department.
@@murph1414 Vedui speaks total sense with regards the farming... I hope TFP take heed.
now i hate farming also. is it possible to copy the farming data from alpha 19 ?
Well I say that its a survival game so the challenge has to be there, the key to survive isn't to be strong, have guns and lot of ammo but the most important, to have something to eat and this was kinda killed in A19 when you had your garden going.
I would revert this change & make it so you can pick the crop without punching it
You missed one aspect... the seeds you find in the world. This is the key to tipping farming in your favor. TFP want you to have a garden that contributes towards your food income, but doesn't supply it entirely. I say, add hen houses, bee hives and fruit trees to Living Off The Land as added bonuses to each tier instead of making gardens OP.
That's a great idea. If they expand what you could farm it would help dramatically. I was wondering why I was finding so many seeds so early in the game. Makes more sense now.
Oh yes I second this, they should have a look at other survival games and introduce a variety of farming options....coming alpha 21-4 I guess though
That is an excellent 👍 idea 💡.
this would actually make a great expansion to the book series i mentioned in my post. The option to create chicken coops and bee hives. I'm even fine with not being able to harvest the chickens themselves as long as they provide say 5 eggs per day or every other day and 15 feathers. Beehives have the option of producing 1 honey every 120mins, maybe even have a boar pen that you can harvest for meat, leather, bones. if they wanted to reduce it to just the meat i'd be fine with that too.
I'd further add rabbit snares as an unskilled craft... but ya
Oof, this is rough, since I'm my groups dedicated farmer most of the time. Overall I'm fine with the spirit of the change, as in A19 you quickly get to a point where food is not an issue at all, but I think the seed drop chance should increase with the skill point investment. I don't think it should hit 100%, but it should be higher. Or, maybe a reduction in how many plants it takes to make the seed as you level up. Going down to four plants at rank 2, and 3 plants at rank 3. But, only one or the other. Both would be too much and would get us right back to A19 overabundance issues.
Haha yes. Same, we had dedicated farmer and I don't think we'll be able to convince anyone to spend all that grind and tedium to fix up hundreds of plots all the time ;)
I think seed drop chance should go away, and then you have a predictable system where you can just tweak harvest count to get thematically appropriate returns based on skill level.
@@jasonthomas5140 Are you saying no seeding required once planted, but crop yield varies based on skill level instead?
@@PeterParkerJr Replanting or not basically boils down to a design decision, and I think either way is valid. On one hand not having to replant is a nice quality-of-life thing, but on the other hand needing to actually replant is probably a little more realistic and makes the endeavor of farming more of an actual role. Since I love the idea of coop play on multiplayer servers I would probably lean toward requiring replanting. But I think the fact that it takes more time should also be reflected in the exp gained from the activity. Mostly what I'm adverse to is the RNG... because if you want reliable yields that forces you to plant excessive crops, and on larger multiplayer servers I think more things growing could cause performance issues. What I'd like to see is higher base harvest counts so that when you forage plants in the world it is more frequently worth the inventory slot they occupy, and with set harvest counts rather than random returns it becomes much easier to balance Living off the land.
SIMPLE FIX: Put the Farming back the way it was, No seeds back unless double punch, Farming skills equals quantities of vegies (1,2, 3 per level), just make the plants take Longer to produce. Corn, potatoes and etc doesn't grow overnight.
Yes. I'm not sure why they didn't just make stuff take longer to grow. Perfect way to lower yield over time :P
I really do not understand why they did not just leave the mechanics the same as A19 and just make it grow a lot slower. If it takes a week to grow instead of 3 days, boom 1/2 as much food.
Yep! The objective of less food seems to be reached by not giving less food, but making people hate farming. A peculiar choice! Make players hate things and not play, is not good for a game :D
Its pretty clear the pimps decided this patch to make early game harder. They have restricted food and water drops, made crops harder to build, and antibiotics/honey are rare. So in that light I can see what they are going for to an extent. Also, something that you didnt mention, going right to meat stew, but the early meals, the corn on the cob, cornbread and baked potato? They doubled the food from them. Each now grants 10 food per pop. That means that early game at least, you will need to eat less of your crops to stay fed as you build up to a full scale farm. Watching glock9 do his farmer glock series was PAINFUL the first few days as he was guzzling stacks of fruits and veggies at 1,2, and 5 food a pop just to avoid starvation. At least now it matches charred meat for the most basic farm food available.
I do agree that the whole replanting thing is obnoxious. I would be content if instead of a seed you got a baby crop in the ground already. That alone would cut the replanting portion in half give or take, and remove a lot of the tedium. While still including the need for high living off the land to keep things stable. A bit of advice id give to new players is, If you want to do long term farming, save your seeds till you have at LEAST 1 point into living off the land to make farming possible to maintain. Get all three points to be safe.
Hello! Yes Chris. I think reducing food is the right choice, we had too much in A19. But making it grindy is the wrong design choice. Lengthen growth times from 3 to 7 instead, and keep the seedlings, so we can do our farming, harvest, and then spend time on the actual game :)
Corn on the cob is stupid, an exact copy of corn bread when you used water to cook it.
It should be giving water instead of losing.
thing is ... food is already not an issue, even at low loot%, hunting is still more than enough even without huntsman skill. Currently playing with 1 other person and 90% of our food comes from animals. And we dont even activly hunt them, we just see them in our travels and kill them along the way.
Once they removed the wellness trait some major version back they pretty much made cooking and with that farming(food) pretty much pointless. The only reason to make good food would be for the healing ... but then again ... why not just grow aloe vera and make first aid bandages?
Spot on brother! I've been holding off spending any points due to this issue.....takes the fun out of it!
I just get LOL 1, so I can get double from farming wild crops and use them to cook :P
I like that the amount of food is reduced and farming is not as profitable as it used to be. It also makes the debuff from cold temperature a bit more dangerous than in A19 - where food was so easy to get that the increase of the hunger rate was trivial, at best.
But I absolutely hate the need to replant all the time. It has nothing to do with "it's a survival game". It's just a time-consuming, dull and extremely annoying mechanic.
I wish instead crops took twice as long to grow, or even more (after all, farming - even in a small plot like a garden - is a long term process) with Vedui's suggestion of a chance for plants to revert back to seedling.
Also food spoiliage and the need to refrigerate to give an incentive for early electricity. One can dream...
Yep! Less food I can get behind for sure! LOL 2 still needs a buff. But making it tedious and grindy is not the approach. As someone who doesn't mind the boredom, will get lotsa food anyhow! So it only avoids food being plenty by making the mechanic boring so people avoid it. That is a broken game design.
I think the farming changes were made with the outfit bonuses that got pushed back to Alpha 21 in mind. Combined with the outfits bonus crops and seeds you'd probably be pretty far ahead.
In the bit I have played since its updated, the less focused planting random seeds from loot thing seems much more viable than before.
Another idea, a new book set, like a garden digest type of thing. Each volume could give a specific crop an extra seed when crafting seeds. Then the completion bonus could upgrade seeds you craft to mature a day faster.
I totally forgot about outfit bonuses which didn't make it to A20 that's actually good point and you might be damn right about it
Possibly! but since we don't have the outfits, that upends the whole A20 farming :)
Man, I'm so glad you made this video. I'm just about to start making plots because the food really sucks rigjt now. Guess its just gonna suck.
there's a lot more rabbits and chickens. there's also a lot more seeds and food recipes in loot.
But you do have to invest to level 2 of living off the land to make a fully self-sustainable farm. (1 gets you a net gain on produce, 2 allows you to craft seeds from part of the produce).
If you find a corn and potato seed recipe book, you can get away with 1 point in LoL.
Or just hunt chickens & rabbits. Don't forget that food cans in vendor machines are actually really cheap once you're a couple days into the game too. And the old classic "bacon & eggs" is still very strong if you keep your eyes peeled for nests.
OH, also, drink red tea, not water. Chrysthanthemums are super common, grab them, and make red tea. It's buff reduces your hunger loss over time.
Hunt for meat, boil meat, get eggs, and skip farming :D
The problem i had with farming in general is that in A19 farming was fine for 1-2 people. However, with my group when you extend it to 3+ people farming was a problem then and early game everybody is just starving. Now it's quite a bit worse and it was not until late game where food even became remotely comfortable for everybody to eat w/e without running out of food. Now it's like being in early game still even though we're late game i would recommend just giving us the seedlings back remove the chance of getting a seed and reducing just slightly the amount of food you get.
What i've noticed playing with mostly just friends large groups previously hard for food to be plentiful/stable but was still manageable. Now bigger groups are worst off and even people playing single player are suffering from it.
Food is now... a gatekeeper. I just collect eggs, buy from traders, buy food at traders in general, and don't share... so I always have enough, and others are starving as they don't pay attention to it :P And all without any farming, a few days in game. Hunt meat and grill it, bacon n eggs when ya can, and you're pretty good :)
Do quests till you get a bike, put some points into huntsman and farm some wolves, cougars and bears. And tada you got more grilled meat than you ever need. Till then just live off what you find in poi and can buy from trader and machine.
I wish they'd never touched farm because farming without hunting = starvation already in alpha 19. Now in alpha 20 - my gf and I don't even see the point to farming at all and this is coming from my gf who loves doing farming in survival games but she hates doing it in 7dtd. When she first told me about what was happening with the farming my first thought was "If they want to keep it like this they NEED to at least double if not TRIPLE the harvest amount." I like your idea better tho, just higher chance to not break the plant with more points in farming but it's that or double the amount of harvest and Quad it on full perked farming. I don't mind the "Realism" of having to replant, but you have to make farming worth it or people are just gonna hunt for eggs and make bacon and eggs from beginning to late game.
I think A19 had too much crops, but the fix should be to give less, not to make it grindy :) Heck in A20 boiled meat and buying food is probably better :P
I'm a bit mixed about this topic. On one hand as someone that's trying to pick up homesteading, I know that farming on a self sufficiency level is VERY hard and that the farming mechanics in previous versions was pretty GG EZ once the main systems are down, so maybe the fun pimps are trying to change that. On the other hand, I get what Vedui is saying as well, as now that farming is too much of a grind and too much RNG for a game to be enjoyable.
A few idea I pulled out of my ass to remedy this is:
1. Maybe have seed vending machines so those not invested in the skill can get seeds reliably, and since the farming plots isnt that much of a hassle to go down if you know what you're doing, it becomes a good side operation for good food farming even if you're not that interested in farming.
2. Like Vedui recommended, Introduce new book series to make farming a gradually better rewarding operation.
3. Make farming skill independent of the endurance tree. That way people can invest in certain common skills without having to invest in skill trees that they aren't interested. While you're at it, throw in sexual tyrannosaurus in the independent tree as well as it's what making the STR tree OP.
4. Maybe add some sort of UI so that players can quickly manage their farm plots and what to plant instead of having to do stuff block by block? Like a "farming Journal" interface or something?
I think in general, it's a zombie horde apocalypse game. Farming (and cooking, and sewing, and everything else) should not be making the game tedious, just to suck time away. Reducing food was good. Increasing tediousness is not. :)
Yeah, I thought farming in A19 was too easy, but this new change is IMO unacceptable. It seems like Fun Pimps knew farming was too easy but had no ideas on how to actually make the farming system more interesting or challenging, so instead they simply made it less rewarding, and they overcorrected. Basically, if you play with other people (more mouths to feed) you have to designate a practically full time farmer or everyone has to burn skill points to spec into farming. In A19, the harvest may be less with an unskilled player, but you couldn't ruin the farm. If the devs wanted to make getting food harder, or just make farming harder, they should have made the system more interesting so that it is more enriching. Instead players who like farming just got punished for no good reason. I have too many ideas on how they could have done this better to mention here, but a couple ideas would be to make the perennial plants stay planted on harvest (aloe, blueberries, coffee, etc.), but have a lower seed yield, and annuals (corn, potatoes, etc.) you lose the plant but have a higher seed yield. Another idea would be that farm plots lose fertility over time, requiring you to either replace the block altogether or have a mechanic to enrich spent soil. You could also make Living Off the Land work differently, so instead of giving you a bigger harvest, maybe LOtL buffs the farm plots that you place, and that ultimately effects the harvest. This would be a lot more realistic (harvesting takes almost no skill for most crops, but planning/planting/tending gets better with experience and knowledge.) Seed Saver could be a later tier perk and give you a 100% chance of seed on any plant you harvest. Anyway, lots of ways to do this right. I know farming is probably not high on Fun Pimps priority list, and going the route I'm suggesting would take a lot of work. But in any event, I would like to see farming become more robust and rewarding, and hopefully more realistic.
I don't mind, and sometimes love to grind, but to grind AND get screwed is no fun! As long as you grind and get rewarded for grinding, that's the reason to grind!
You will never be able to grow super corn with this farming system.
@@urduib If you have ten seeds you should be ok. It is SUPER annouying, but at that point even if you get four seeds out of ten you weill get ahead eventually, I just hate the RNG of that. You have to spec right into living off the land and all in it slowing all you other stuff way down!
The definition of "Farm" Means that you get more than you planted. If you get less then it's completely pointless and doesn't have any attraction to it. Instead of trying to make that part of the game more difficult, they should expand on it. Otherwise the better option is to just do a few quests and then trade for the food management items. Attempting to make the game less linear, made it more linear. You know what? Since the last time I watched 7d2d it was alpha 15 if I remember correctly, and since then they added lots of new tools and weapons. How about they just add a tool that you can unlock at midway through the skill level, to get a positive gain for seeds?
Hello! Indeed! It's neither fun nor realistic anyhow, and likely will just make people farm less for little purpose :)
Our group of players work the game as a community, gatherers, hunters, and farming to support the team. No longer with farming failing the chances of success is reduced and the comradere falls apart, game gets boring and players stop coming in. FIX FARMING, maybe set it as it was in 19.
Yeah I'm skipping farming right now to be honest. :) Maybe a few plots for any seeds I find, but nothing super big.
While I agree farming should be harder, this is not the way. Replanting is a chore and the RNG of losing a seed make it even less fun. Forcing people into Lv3 LoTL in order to farm sustainably is wrong, choices should never be 'all or nothing'.
Yep! I agree. Harder/less yield than A19, but not more tedious :)
This change was a shot in the heart as I only play this game to farm and make beautiful bases with my friends. I feel like this game is already SUPER grindy and adding more to the grind just makes it less fun. A simple fix would have been nerfing/removing stat bonuses from certain foods.
Yeah I find people who did farming before are less keen to spend all that time now in A20 :)
Having been in this game sine A1 (a bit over 7600 hrs.) one of the main themes from the FP is getting people out and exploring the game. The appeal of the game for me has been to zap zombies, build, explore, loot, avoid getting my face ripped off and having my entrails ripped out and eaten.
I've never been much for farming as I nomad quite a bit, but for those that like to farm, why punish them for it?
Making and open world game then trying to force people to play it a certain way is counter intuitive. The appeal of this game is that it is not scripted. You can have the best weapons in the game and still get hosed if you get cocky. Forgot to reload your weapons after that last firefight, then get jump in a confined space: ye ole reload animation death. We've all been there.
It's like we are being forced into multiplayer. Spec into this; Spec into that; Spec into the other thing...
Appeal to the button pushers. Next a certain combo of keys pushed during a certain animation and you can kill more zombies.
'I know: let's make this cool as F game then suck all the Fun out of playing it.'
Hello Robert! Yes, especially as they reduced complexity removing hoe, and fertilizer... and now they introduce pointless grind to compensate. Not a good design choice. :)
I really hated when they made quality 6 items loot exclusive. Why give us the option to skill into crafting ans trading if its always the worse option now?
Since quality 6 became uncraftable i have not crafted a singe weapon, tool or armor to use it besides the quality 1 iron tools.
I only have a mere 4k hours. Lol
One of the many reasons I have shelved this game. Until the company decides to stop punishing players forcing player to play how they want them to play, I refuse to play their game. After many years of this, I have lost interest. They've had almost a whole decade to learn from their mistakes, but they keep on repeating them.
Everyone seems to forget the Thematic outfits, there is a farmer one... so you should be able to get either more crops or 100% seeds back with it.
that's not in the game, it got pushed back to alpha 21
I really likes the farming in A19, but understand why they would want to change it. I think there really needs to be an adjustment that doesn't make farming so tedious though.
I think the ideal solution to the tedium of having to replant every single Harvest would be to implement NPC survivors that you could rescue and have work for you in exchange for a supply of food and a bedroll. They could do things like Harvest and replant trees in a certain area or harvest and replant crops in a certain area or even generate a small amount of loot if assigned to a Scavenging station similar to what happens in Fallout 4. This could add another challenge by not having them resurrect if they die or even requiring them for you to resurrect if you die, and having them increase the number of attacking zombies during hordes while also generating Heat
Yes. Design to reduce food, not increase tediousness :)
A good solution to fix this is the use fertilization of the farm plot.
When you Fertilize the farm plot using a item, the block is actually upgraded. When the crop fully grows into a superior version, the block underneath reverts back to regular farm plot.
Nah, just some other tedious thing to do and actually the game already had this feature once!
@@ChePennyDK yea, and thank god it didnt use up the fertilizer, that was a pain in the ass to get. had to go rummaging around in coffins, waiting 9 hours for the cement mixer to churn some out, or go strip mine an entire burnt forest for it.
Great video! I did one on the same topic just testing out the farming. It's not profitable without the farming perk, you need a larger farm to get what you used to get with a smaller farm because your turning half your harvest into seeds now. AND it's a tedious chore replanting all the seeds Everytime.
I'm personally not a fan of the change. If they made the farmer perk leave the seedlings in the ground after harvesting I wouldnt mind it, but that's a HUGE quality of life issue.
Why even get a seed back just to physically replant. Why not save the pointless waste of time and just make the plant 50% to stay? Maybe that should be the first level of farming. Then second be a chance to get the seed or better yet a better chance for the plant to stay. Third sure maybe you want to make farming a little more involved with reality. So third is a better chance of the plant staying plus the seed.
Making it less grindy with also not making it too simple.
If you got multiple players I'm sure fun pimps wants to make for some player interactions and team building. So a farmer, hunter, cook. Is one of the people you want. Miner, crafter is a huge thing. Then the scavenger and gatherer. If not a team it makes player types valuable. In which case I think vending machines should be more available to promote player interactions supplementing losses in skill trees choices.
While the seed drop balances out to 50% over time, even with level 2 LotL a single back very luck harvest can screw over your farm, and leave you needing to farm more just to fill the current farm, which shouldn’t be a concern. Honestly I’d rather have it so without LotL you got a seed and 1 corn when harvesting, as the 5 plants to make a single seed is a bit crazy.
As you point out, a player shouldn’t need 80 plots just to barely produce enough food, meds & tea.
I completely agree with your changes, as my biggest issue is the busywork of constantly replanting, hell I’d put the 3 points into LotL just to avoid being forced to do that. But I do like the 90% reverting to a seedling, but I’d suggest there also be a farming magazine which would increase it by 10% so at lvl 3 it was 100%
Hello John! Yes, it's the grind of it that is without purpose. Less food is fine, I don't mind. But grinding for food? I might just boil meat in bulk and chomp that.
@@Vedui42 yeah, and then spend the time you save looting an extra poi or two
@@Vedui42 After some though....What about server performance and people who dont farm, so they will run around harvesting the world crops and they dont respawn unless a quest is there, I can see a server with 20 players without crops.
the books is a great idea but i would wall the auto-planting behind finding them all. i know its tedious to replant by hand, but on the other hand i feel more accomplished if i had to work for my yield.
@@Vedui42 chompin on boiled meat is what they want you to do,.. the apparently hate vegans or something
To make farming worthwhile you HAVE TO have LOTL Lvl 3 and farm in sets of 10 plots.
alternatively you can grow your farm to be considerably bigger with lotl 3 so it's neglegible to have to worry about food. or just go to a snow biome and never have to worry about food again. the animal spawns are insane
Before Alpha 17, you also had to replant and make seeds. So this is nothing new for me and at least I have something to do at night.
Hello Andreas! Yes. And it was the best change for A19, no more grinding crops. :)
@@Vedui42 Never bothered me. In fact, I enjoyed it. And I had huge fields.
And as for grinding, I had a base in A16 with about 1000 wooden spikes that had to be replaced after each horde. The little bit of grinding to replant the fields is nothing compared to that.
I don't understand why you can't have farm animals. In any apocalypse, animals would be a precious commodity. It would be great to have farming communities on a server that would add immersion to the game.
To hard to code for the Funpimps, thats why lol
Yeah! There was a cool A17 Farming mod by Jayick I covered, which had that!
The problem is that farming is too OP and basically makes hunger moot. The obvious solution is to make corn always return a seed, but make it take like a month to grow. Just like real life.
If the Fun Pimps felt that players were growing too much food, they could have easily fixed the problem by making it take more time for plants to produce crops. They didn’t need to change the alpha 19 mechanic in any other way.
Yes :) Making it tedious is a poor design. Let us have fun, not be bored.
This. Longer growth times, super simple solution with no more grind and tediousness. Farms would need to be bigger to sustain same number of people, but there would only be about same amount of work since you'd need to harvest less often.
from the new b231 update released today:
"Living off the Land level 2 now has a 50% chance to harvest 1 additional crop".
looking forward to know how it does impact farming, and make it sustainable hopefully.
not that it really matters to me; i've already spent the points somewhere else and sitting pretty with 2 stacks of Bacon and Eggs. : )
With all the replanting needed farming is still too tedious to bother about. Personally I dont care if its inly 1 crop per week from a plant, just spare me from repetative actions with aiming and clicking at the same god damn pod over and over again.
I don't think it is a bug in the game, it is to make survival more difficult. Most don't like it this way and I am sure there are some that do but all I can say to TFP is yeah nah mate, this won't do because it makes it too grindy and takes the fun out of it IMHO.
Less food is good. More grind is bad :D
It's a long term grinding game and people are just now finding this out.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I like the new farming. Just seems to make it more of a challenge despite the grind. You may be able to eventually get a garden going that will be able to sustain you, and I think this new system will make it that more satisfying
Plus if TFP do implement the outfit system, will make having the farmer outfit worthwhile.
Hi Cal! I understand. I love a challenge. Grind is however not a challenge though :)
Yeah I agree, A19 I had a farm of 100 plots and there would be weeks go by without me harvesting them because I didn't have room to store the produce! Its not survival horror if you're not going hungry every other day! In the original version (when vultures were giant bumble bees) the two most common deaths for me were mauled by dogs and starvation. Its been a long long time since I died of starvation!
Totally agree with not having to replant seeds, its very grindy. I had an idea that would make it balanced and more enjoyable, plus "NEVER" have to replant at level 1 of Living off the land.
1. Reduce the amount of planted crop yield to 1 for all (Just so you can't have too much too early), with no points in "LOTL" (Living off the land) you have a 50% chance to break a crop.
2. At level 1 of "LOTL" never break a planted crop, and have a 50% chance of an additional planted crop (So average about 15 for 10 plots).
3. At level 2 of "LOTL" reduce the cost of plots and double planted crop yield. Then un-lock the recipe for an iron scythe (Iron scythe can harvest a 3x3 area of grown planted crops).
4. At level 3 of "LOTL" double planted crop yield, double wild crop yield, and add an additional 50% chance to get a 3rd planted crop. Then un-lock the recipe for a steel scythe (steel scythe can harvest a 5x5 area of grown planted crops).
Maybe the balance of crop yield could be tweaked for further game stages if what above falls short. Oh and I forgot to mention that your never get a chance for seeds when harvesting (for balance sake lol).
Yes I get the feeling most who dislike the change don't mind the REDUCTION of food. Just the increase of grind.
I used to make big farms. Maybe it was too easy idk? It was fun though. I like farming in games.
Yep me too, 175 farm plots was an average for me.
@@karolstadnik6275 jeez that's alot. Will you still do it now that you have to craft and replant the seeds Everytime?
I liked it, but this makes it super tedious.
2:55 You can craft seeds from the cobs too. 5 for 1. You got 110% of what you planted.
(and 0 harvest, ofc)
Looks like I'll be doing some more xml file editing to revert the farming back to A19 stage.
I think making the plant revert to seed stage at harvest would be much more convenient and less grindy :)
I don't mind it. The hunters need to invest a few points to get amounts of meat reliably, so the farmers should too. I think a lot of the new version was directed towards extending early game.
What is annoying to me is the difficulty of finding 5 acids to make a chemstation. I had the money to buy one from a trader but it vanished from the short time from when my girl found it and when I looked. I tried to give her the money but it was gone. All in the span of a few minutes.
You don't need a thing to get boatloads of meat. One trip to the trader last night, and I got 300+ pieces of meat with no skill investment and that was 1 km one way. 6 bears, 4 wildcats, 3 wolves and a couple of rabbits and chickens, give or take. Farming shouldn't take so much to BREAK EVEN, much less profit.
Hello! I have so much meat I don't need to farm. I just boil it up :) Since water is (thankfully!!!) easy to get in truckloads, boiled meat is the best right now. Less food I would agree with. More tedious and grind? nah. I wanna build, explore, fight. Not keep crafting and replanting farms :)
I’m finding what feels like more seeds when I loot. Is that a stat that has been adjusted or have I just been lucky?
Same here, I guess it's part of the change
They have made it easier to get seeds, they have also added a reward from the trader you get three farm plots and three random seeds.
it was part of the changes. seeds, seed recipes, and food recipes are more common in shamway crates. Seeds are found more often in produce bins. I think it was done to offset the lose of seeds from the farming changes and thus encourages you to stock pile the seeds/ loot more frequently
The seed and food recipe drops are significantly bumped up in A20. Particularly in cabinets, shamway boxes, and mail boxes. There's also a lot more rabbits & chickens.
Yes. It's kinda amusing. In order to not have more food, they make farming tedious and grindy. But then we lack seeds. So then they increase seeds everywhere. So that ... you can farm and get more food, when that was the whole problem they were trying to solve. :)
7days is an survival-game not a farming-simulator.
Yep! Supposed to be!
I do feel like part of this is a positive thing as it give more value to seeds that you find in the world and it makes food more of a valuable resource. But yeah the negative aspect is that you cant really capitalize on focusing farming points, except for more crops ofc...
My solution would be something like this:
Each level increase in the "Living of the land" perk would be that a certain percentage of seed dropping increases. I would feel like 75 percent might be a good max number for maxed perk.
Instead of the crop breaking when harvesting, you can harvest that crop on three seperate times before it "breaks". meaning you harvest it and it has to regrow and then you can harvest it again until the third time when it breaks. This might be a good middle ground for this feature to feel both immersive and balanced as you can capitalize with the perk but its still relatively useful for no or low level perk.
I end up rarely farming. You can always eat boiled/grilled meat, bacon n eggs, and then later game buy a lot more food :)
The bug for not consuming blocks when placing them happens whenever you load in with the cheats option enabled. You can still set it to off and use F1 to enter dm or cm, then it only doesn’t consume whenever cm is on.
Yeah :) It's a bit of a weird toggle, as it should be IF your are in creative mode ... then duplicate. If not, don't. But now it seems it's enough to have cheats enabled in the world and it's always like that. :)
If you place your farm plots on top of the ground instead of digging down 1 to make it level you can put the mushrooms on the side of the farm plot and it should count as being placed on a farm plot. I just modded it out myself to make it so they no longer break but give less food.
The only thing I have a big problem with is the replanting grind. My fix would be to replant automatically if you have a seed of the same plant you just harvested in the inventory. You can keep everything the way it is and push the convenience of not having to replant towards the end game when you can afford to stock seeds naturally.
This would also add another layer of choice early on of weather you want to use your early harvests for food or for replanting. If I stockpile my seeds, I'll need to do a food run, if I use it I can do more quests.
I was actually thinking of the increased seed chance per farming level myself. the new farming method may be grindy but having to make fewer seeds as you level up does help with that grind a bit and I actually wouldn't mind making and planting a few extra seeds and this way it feels like a "seasoned farmer" will be ALOT more valuable than earlier for sustainablity of your farm.
Giving extra would help! But I think just making it less chance to break the plant, like in A19, would just help even further. It's already grindy to farm, seeds, plant, harvest, and ultimately it's just something most players would happily skip some grind in :)
hunting vs farming
day 31:
have gotten over 2000 raw meat total with little to no effort
ive got a 7x7 farm of random stuff because i dont have the seeds yet but its starting to get somewhere but its been alot of work and no reward so far
unless you consider getting more seeds to wait more
expectations:
once i get to the point i can have the entire bunker farm 7x7 or 49 slots yeilding max with all 3 perks of a single type, ill be able to have in abundance the singular item.
it will never give enough food to live on by itself but missions kinda spam food at me to the point of filling 2 storage boxs and the 2k meat cooked down to 200 grilled meat has been
more than enough, but farms for specialty stuff can be usefull like coffee, super corn etc
i did perfer it when you punched a full grown and it reverted back to a baby plant and you got stuff from it. felt grindy then lol, guessing the devs want farming to peak at harvesting seeds you find oppose to replanting
if your gonna spend those perk points tho, throw it into maxing hunter and youll have plenty of meat. save farming for ultra endgame investment
Indeed ! I end up with so much meat, find eggs, random potatoes and corn and make meat stew, buy stuff when needed, and am just fine without bothering with a dedicated farm :)
Farming no longer feeds everyone
Not even yourself... myself, i get eggs for bacon n eggs and grill up all the meat ;P
@@Vedui42 yep. That is the old faithful way
When I play solo, I tend to focus on certain skills for a solo run. Things change a bit when I'm playing with my friends. We go into one base (or split into a couple of bases) and have people focus their skill trees on one or 2 skills in early game. We'll have the miner, the one who makes vehicles, the one who focuses on food, someone who's good at breaking down vehicles, the person with high looting skills opening all the good containers, the one with good barter, all with skills in various combat types (so if we find a high level weapon, it's not a waste because nobody is specced into it).
If the loot, quest rewards, and what's available at the vendor hasn't been drastically reworked for Alpha 20, we should be able to find plenty of food outside of farming. If we want to focus on farming, then we need to spec into that skill tree a bit (tradeoff being we don't need to make looting runs as often, but we've got a safer space for crops).
It seems like maybe higher levels of living off the land might also make seed recipes a bit cheaper per seed might make it worth it. I remember our Alpha 19 playthrough we had cropped food and seeds filling a couple of boxes.
Same, I had so much food from my farm (to support 2 ppl) it was basically never going to run out. Didn’t even have to harvest every time because I had so much
A19 had too much food. A20? I do fine with just boiled meat, bacon n eggs, and just buying it from trader and looting, and that's early game. Mid-late game, you might as well just buy all the food at traders and save the grind. :)
Tedious is the best word to describe this. Yes, farming was OP and needed nerfing to match the new food scarcity. That's fine. I get it. But they took it too far, and now it's not fun. I like your ideas on how to correct it. Now, if the Pimps will just listen...
How long before the mod community comes up with their own fix? 😉
So much this. Less food I think many agree with. Tediousness is a poor way to address it though!
Wait until you learn that you don't need mods for this. All the xmls are in your hands, free for you to edit :)
@@DunnickFayuro Please share that information! :D
This. All of this. I’m so glad I’m not alone.
Right now I just alternate growing seeds and doing a full harvest. It is more anoying having to replant but its not that bad. Every time I replant I reevaluate what we need and a 12x11 plot easily feeds 4 people.
it makes sense so other source of food like hunting, looting and trader have some use their availability is not just for starting player but they should be useful till end game. so if you run out seed to plant then it's time for some hunting and looting or you can sell useless or excess stuff to get some dukes to buy food from trader. also remember TFP logic harder = fun
i am not against having to replant seeds each harvest, it just has to be something that can be maintained. what would be the point of farming without points in it? the easiest adjustment would be the lower the cost of crafting seeds.
It's the replanting seeds I'm mostly against. :) It was the best thing in A19 farming to be honest.
It kinda makes sense though, if your not a farmer in real life, it's pretty hard to have a sustainable garden. I'm okay with that change. I just HATE having to replant the seeds every time.
id prefer if they buffed the farm plots, like reg. farm plot = you get seeds back at 25%, and add advanced/fertile plots for 50% seed return, and then a greenhouse growbed plot for 75% return. id prefer something like this.
Yes! Less grind!
To be fair you only need more than a couple large meals a day if you're playing with non-default length days. The trade off there though is that you have a lot more daylight to get things done, and more time between horde nights.
Hello! I find myself going through a lot more food than a couple of meals, and I play on regular 60 minute days.
Why not just increase and decrease the harvest time?
Living off the land:
1 lvl - 25% to double the crops and no need to replanting (you lose seeds if you dont have this perk), farm plots cost 25% less
2 lvl - 50% to double the crops, all seed recipe unlocked
3 lvl - 100% to double the crops, farm plots cost 50% less
First lvl is good, but not doing much but you can now farm a little
Second lvl give you a solid chance to expand your farmig ground cause othervise - you need to trade or look up everywhere to find seeds
Third lvl for those who invest in farming already, just solid endgame choice
I think my take on this is pretty solid and more balanced. Also, maybe fun pimps can lock the farming in the forest zone only, if they want more challange, but less grind. Making 2 or more bases is still better then replant those fucking thing all the time
To be honest, LOL 2 is quite pointless. As with LOL 1, getting 10-20 plots is still fine. LOL 2 requires more points into fortitude, which is fine if that's your aim, but it won't be for many for quite a while. And once you hit mid game, looting, getting cash and buying food, boiling meat, will get you much further with less grind :)
I’m on day 20 in my latest run and I have level 3 living off the land with over 50 plots and STILL don’t have a sufficient blueberry, mushroom or hops reserves due to bad seed gathering. I’ve always liked building up a nice farm in game so it’s typically something I focus on very early. I can only make a few beers, a few veggie stews and maybe 2 or 3 blueberry pies after a full harvest. In A19 I would have been had plenty of yield to make what I want by day 10. And I usually like to sell excess food so I can have a little extra cash (thankfully loot is a bit better in A20 or else my in game wallet would have taken a serious blow) I’ve gone through like 4 big harvests and only within the last two maybe I’ve finally built up enough corn, potato and pumpkin to be start making a good food reserve. And that’s with me heavily prioritizing farming.
Yeah I find it superbly annoying to harvest.. then need to count out how many new seeds to make, craft them all, then switch to hotbar and replant. Annoying!
I watched this video with some concerns as in our games I'm usually the farmer. However, we're in day 10, I maxed out LOL, and have rows of 14 seeds of corn, super corn, potatoes, yucca, pumpkins, plus a backup of 14 seeds of each variety. We have an average profit of around 30 of each produce each growing cycle, so currently our food inventory consists of 7 stacks of meat stew, 6 stacks of yucca juice and have at least 60 of each of our various produce. So, for us, farming has not been an issue at all. We have been lucky finding more than enough seeds and meat along with the main recipes.
I'm at day 42 in my solo stream game, LOL 2, and never have any food issues despite never really farming. I mean I have a few plots, but I just buy or harvest what I come across, and I have more than enough food :) The point being is that nerfing farming like this just means people tend to stay away from it, as many are finding that scavenging and just running farming-light (or not at all) gives you more than enough food anyhow. :) It's a waste of what was a cool part of the game in my view.
This replanting is why I have gone back to the previous version. Hopefully, some servers will prefer the old one.
Yeah it does need a fix :)
Im someone who plays with at least 2-5 friends so we used to have like 30 plots on A19 and this usualy sustained us.. just replanting was a grind so this is a very bad rework. Hope they fix this otherwhise it wont take long for a mod to fix the problem :)
I think the problem with it now is how good getting seeds is vs how sad not getting seeds is. Living 3 gives you 6 now, so if you get a seed, you get +6 food, but if you don't get the seed, you only get +6 -5 for seed = +1. Thus, you're on a 50% getting 5 more food, which just seems wacked as hell
Yes. It's far too random. At LOL level 2, I kept harvesting and not getting seeds back, and then all of a sudden I had no farm :P
Damn Vedui I remember when you had idk 200 subscribers. You've grown up.
Sniffle! I'm all grown up papa! ;)
While we're at it, can we get "press E to harvest", rather than punching the plant... or the seed, or the plot itself, depending.
That would be a huge quality of life improvement soooo, NO
I suspect the issue is, E is considered an action, and would only yield one... whereas punching allows them to apply skills and modify yield.
@@Vedui42 Using E in Undead Legacy allows you to harvest, AND applies the modifiers. UL also has a very simple, intuitive slot-lock mechanic. There's a lot of little tweaks that FP could do that wouldn't affect balance in the slightest, we're just gonna have to keep pushing
I also got to thinking, and it would only apply to a small percentage of players sure, but this could make a dedicated farmer build more rewarding in a multi-player environment.
The idea of setting up as a farmer/ food truck never really worked when it was so easy to go self sufficient with minimal investment. When the plant never broke, you didn't really need the skills to get to that point, they just made getting there more time and space efficient.
Now that you need full investment to go infinitely renewable, building a farm is an actual character choice you work towards, and not just something you can plant and forget on any playthrough.
And we could finally make some meaningful use of player vending! Lol.
It does still feel heavy handed though after getting used to the last version, especially for solo play.
Oh the farmers I've spoken to have given up farming in A20 as a result. Dedicated farming is now off the table. Imagine 1 farmer, 5 person team. That person will be spending 30 mins every few days just to harvest, make seeds, and replanting. Most people don't enjoy that :) We're talking hundreds of farm plots.
@@Vedui42 oh yeah I'll easily agree it needs tuning. It could either come back the other way a little bit, or add more perks on the plus side.
The tricky part is that the sweet spot between too generous and stingy is kind of like finding the spot on some shower knobs between artic and boiling.
I do still believe it can settle in a better spot than it started.
I can imagine just one simple change would help balance out this whole issue with farming. Perhaps Living off the Land rank 2/3 could reduce the price of crafting seeds from 5 crops down to 4? This way, the second rank would mean you would have a sustainable farm (and over time, profit) while rank 3 would be slightly overkill but not completely overpowered. Other than having to replant seeds again and the whole 50% chance to get a seed back thing, I'd say the next biggest issue is the player is forced to max out the perk if they want a fully fledged farm and not some tiny garden.
Yep! It would still make it grindy, and i don't see why they would 50% give back a seed. Just have it 50 % to not break. But it's possible the current engine can't do random downgrades, and that's why it's like this.
I agree pretty broken. I would recommend back to a19 but growth takes longer OR greatly reduce yield at full skill up. I don't know the code
Nope. factoring eating for replensihing health, the farming is Bricked. dang it. possibly a MASSIVE mistake with game balance. :( great video as ALWAYS Vedui ;) keep them coming my friend!
Yes. Making food less plentiful is great, A19 was too food heavy. Adding pointless grind, is not :)
Man, so glad i've never relied on farming for food. I don't think i made a farm more than once in the dozen or so game worlds i played on A18 and A19.
Yes. I would normally have a farm to get some stuff now and then. In A20, I'd rather just buy it at the trader :P
On a recent playthrough, I eventually took the perks so that I could start making the good stuff. I harvested them twice, which was mainly so that I could get enough seeds to fill all the plots I had set up, and haven't used a single bit of the harvest for food since. I find so much good food while doing trader quests that I never need to make any. Ever. I had to add more food storage to hold all the raw meat I've collected over time that I never cook. Even with maxed out Healing Factor, I don't go through my food as fast as I find it.
So yeah, my take is the new system is bad and definitely not worth the 3 perk points. I dunno, maybe if you're playing with a group of people and thus had more mouths to feed? But I doubt it.
Yes :) Which is why it's such an odd design choice. Make it grindy and boring so people hate it and don't use it, then FLOOD the world with food so we don't have to either. I normally only go 1 lol to get double yield in POI's and wild, and if I do LOL 3 it's coz I'm building and want to make a farm for the fun of it, not because I'm out of food :D
It's kinda ironic, they heavily simplified the survival and experience aspects from pre-A17 but the whole farming scarcity theme feels like it would come from that era.
Yes! Farming was more complex before with hoe'ing ground, finding and then applying fertilizer etc. But ... that was too complex, so now we're... grinding it instead :P Which by the way doesn't reduce food as such, it just wastes time and energy :)
Actually I mostly have disliked simplifying stuff, but game is still fun enough... sigh... I miss collecting gun parts and upgrading slowly...
i've noticed a lot on streamer/youtubers are using 10 crop plots for this example. in alpha 19 I reliably lived off of 7-8 crop plots for each of the 3 main crops (corn, potatoes, mushrooms). So 16 crop plots and 8 mushroom spores. In terms of yield I never went past the second point of lofl till late game. I did it for the crop plot resource reduction more than anything. Now in alpha 20 my game bugged and even with 1 point in loft my game i only got 2 crops for my planted seeds, but that's besides the point. Using the 8 crop plot method you will harvest 32 crops per 8 plants and receive on average 4 seeds. after you make 4 more seeds you'll be left with 16 crops. which is enough for 8 vegetable stews. I personally only use food for hunger/thirst so I could usually get away with 8 vegetables stews every 120mins of in game play which is the growth rate for corn. if you have bad rng you can either supplement food from other sources (caned, grilled meat, ect) or stockpile seeds from good rng/lootables to off set the times you get bad rng when harvesting your crops. Personally, I think the fix is really simple. just add a +25% chance of reclaiming a seed to either tier 2 of loft or tier 3. Putting it in tier 3 gives a much larger incentive to maxing the skill tree, but putting it on tier 2 makes it far more attractive in the early to mid game. Now, you had brought up skill books and I think a farming series would be awesome. They already have the hunting series and the survival series, but having a farming series or even changing some books from the survival series would be awesome. And I personally believe the most important book should be "when harvesting crop player planted crops the crop with return to a seedling instead of providing a seed" That said I'm not sure what they would do for the other 6 books. unless they changed the perk to be additive instead of multiplicative. meaning rank 1 provides 3 crops, rank 3 provides 5. Then they could forgo adding the +25% seed retention on tier 2 or 3 of loft and make it a book. Then add another book that gives a bonus +1 crop from harvested plants. which puts you back to 4 crops at rank 1 and 6 at rank six. This would then provide 2 to 3 books in the series and the rest could do with cooking/clothing you wear giving a bonus.
I think reducing the grind of breaking plants all the time would help, and buffing LOL level 2. :) Less food is fine. But not through artificial "I'm too bored to farm more" kind of design :)
I think balancing the seed drop is good fix, I don't have an issue with the rest. The replant and seedling is a good idea with the seed drop it makes it more of a reward. Along this train of thought, I wish they added a chance that on a repair of tools and weapons there was a chance of destroying the item. For example if I get level 6 Pistol I pretty much have a weapon for the rest of the game, but adding a chance that with the repair kit you have 90 percent success rate than sweet, but think of how it would effect the play through. Maybe the chance is based on the level of equipment and maybe based on a repair skill attribute, plus repairing at a workbench gives you a bonus or negates the chance. Currently once you get that level 6 gear you are done, just need repair kits. But adding the risk of losing that equipment will make you rethink repairing out in the wild. Maybe trader repair station for 100% success rate.
In A19 solo it was easy once you got your farm up and i had so much food i really didn't harvest food until every 2-3 days.
So in A20 when i heard about the nerf i went back and forth. i hated it and then remember how much food had and was ok with the nerf and the thing i hate now is replanting. On default an hour goes by so fast so taking the time to replant so many seeds is so ugh.
But this is why i love 7 Days is the mods. Don't like something/vanilla game, mod it. I use a mod that to make seeds cost less for each level in Living off the Land. But i do like the idea of having a chance to not break the seed item. As a beginner modder off the top of my head i don't think i can do that with mods and seems like more on the coding side.
Its a simple change you just need to find the part of code where is says degradation and change it from nothing to a seed, if you have A19 installed you might see and compare the code for farming or vegetables themselves
@@karolstadnik6275 yeah i just realized the seeds cost less mod doesn't work on A20. im trying to figure out how to make it work again. and yeah was going to reinstall a19 again and see whats the difference is and alright i will look for that thanks.
EDIT:
Actually Seeds Cost Less mod actually works was another mod conflicting. Some reason the maker of Pick Up plants added seeds cost less recipes.xml file.
@@karolstadnik6275 Hi can you tell me were in the xml files it is Thanks never thought to change it there
I think A19 had too much food. A20 has too little AND adds tedious grind for no reason. If we want less food, reduce food but remove the grind, and it makes more sense :) You're right, modding this is pretty straight forward.
Wish they took the stardew valley route and made 4 adjacent plants of the same kind have a chance to turn into a big 4 block crop , or increase the amount of times a plant can be harvested before it wilts. Hell I would be down for plants that can only be planted in certain biomes to encourage more base building .
I feel like they could fix the farming system pretty easily. Just make the second and third perk give you a 75% chance instead of 50% chance to get seeds. It makes replanting easier.
Yes that'd help :)
🤣 I’m confused. Do I Like or Hate this video to get the funpimps to change this
You love the video and spread it far and wide so TFP takes notes! :)
I totally agree this needs reworking to a fairer system. Maybe a higher tier/ s that address the inequality of seeds per harvested plant. I do like the idea of plats just going to seedlings after their harvested
Yes, maybe it was tough to implement downgrading at a random chance?
I would love to not have to replant every single time. I'm going to be doing farming 3 either way on my 2 person team, but I really really would love to not replant every single time.
Yeah Alpha 19 was great!
They buffed Rank 2 of LOTL since this video was posted. Farming is actually more effective than A19. It's a bit more tedious since you need to craft seeds, but you ultimately harvest more crops. You do need Rank 3 of LOTL though. Anything below that is not much help. I farm for a 2 player server and I have a surplus of Meat Stew, left over crops, and seeds and I only have 50 plots, growing 25 Potato and 25 Corn.
I get why they did this because it did get to a point where food was something that just didnt matter any more at endgame but I think it needs to be better for people who dedicate to the farming build. Maybe make living off the land more skill point demanding or something. Or add more levels to it like level 4 and level 5 could be added to give better seed chance but they cost 2 or 3 skill points to get each one.
Yes, A19 had too much food. I think many/most agree. I just don't want the GRIND ... adding complexity is fine, to slow down... but grind? That's no fun.
@@Vedui42 Ok so after the update I think its fixed kinda.... My friend is the one doing our farming atm and apparently he is getting 6 per crop now.... Seems like this helps but I think its just keeping the seeds/destroy crop grind thing still there. So we now get plenty of seeds from the crop but again it gets a bit grindy having to constantly re-plant every single crop. I would rather see a chance to not destroy crop or something at this point.
I find it odd that they changed both the farming and food drops at the same time. If they lowered food, and left farming, fine. IF they did the opposite, fine. But they're trying to change both mechanics in the same patch and its over-compensated. Ive been very low on food this patch, and while that's probably the point, they seem to have swung too far in the other direction.
This is what TFP do, they nerf too hard and then give back to whatever people will tolerate. It is a valid strategy in game design, these guys just use it as their default. So, if they hold true to form, there will be an adjustment in an upcoming patch or the outfit thing will compensate a little. Either way, farming will remain below A19 levels.
The tedium of replanting is my main gripe about the new system. If they want to reduce the yield of each crop, that's fine with me, so long as they do a guaranteed automatic replanting with each harvest and a minimum yield of one product at max level. As you pointed out, replanting 80 plots after every harvest is not enjoyable and is an unnecessary waste of time.
I found that if I'm starting out with just enough potatoes to make a few seeds, I will end up with a net loss until the highest skill level, which makes farming for yields impossible until the late game.
Easy Fixes/Solutions:
1-reduce seed loss (as per the Vedui) at all three levels (45/60/90)
2-accept the grind, late game farming only, live off canned food and boiled meat, gather all rotted flesh as you go (mine the rest once ready), save all seeds, convert most fresh food to seeds. Start once you have 20 of a type of plant you want to grow plus level two farmer.
3-Meatatarian diet: boiled meat, plants are what food eat
4-no seed loss, adjust the yield to two per plant at level three (other levels unlock the seeds you can make). This way ten plots will yield up to 20 of whatever the plant is and you will need to keep harvesting regularly. Adjust the recipes based on a three day consumption cycle so forgetting to harvest is a bit costly
4-reduce the seed cost at level one from 5 to 4, and again at level three from 4 to 3
MY suggestion: (I'll post it on TFP forum eventually)
-change: no replanting entire crop each harvest, just replant damaged seeds (If I harvest 100 plots, maybe I make and replant 10-20 seeds)
-at zero: don't even bother
-at level one: you are barely holding on, perhaps 35% seed loss, 2 yield per plant (ten plot yield would be 20 pieces, lose 3-4 seeds, convert 15/20 to 3/4 seeds, you get a lucky RNG, you get maybe +5). Slow, but not guaranteed to fail either. Level one should be barely sustainable with some luck, but NOT a death sentence.
-level two should be slightly better: seed cost reduced to 4 with same 35% seed loss (resulting in a 20 yield, 3/4 seed loss, convert 12/16, keep +4/+8). Still have incentive to upgrade level or farm size.
-level three should be significantly ahead: Seed loss reduced to 10% (to remove grind), seed cost reduced to 3 (resulting in a 20 yield, 2 seed, 6 convert, +16 keep). Cornmeal for days (don't tell Glock9).
Plenty of ways to fix! I just want less grind. Make it fun, not a chore :)
I agree with you, farming and self sustaining was something I really enjoyed about this game, but now it's pointless. I'm not a big looter so I always look forward to building, now I keep running out of food!
Yeah! I think it can be fixed pretty easily, some tweaks to yields, and minimizing the grindy replanting and always crafting new seeds part :)
Don't also forget that for many players the fun part is just to shoot everything that has a pulse or doesn't lol, if you farm and cook , and you can sale to the trader to make Dukes then is another reason to level farming.
I suspect people will just do quests, loot, explore, and get meat, boil meat, bacon n eggs, and buy food at vending and traders. As soon as you hit mid game, you'll end up getting thousands of dukes per loot run, which easily will buy a lot of food.
i think the correct way to fix farming is to 1.) make seeds very rare but last forever. 2.) make crop plots be rare or expensive to acquire. over time you'll eventually acquire all you need for food but it will be an issue for the early/mid game. i don't think that farming needs to be something you have to manage yourself. it should be something that produces and all you have to do is collect.
One way to reduce grind would be to have NPC's who can farm. :)
I'm going to highlight this for you guys now. The change in how farming works was not about stopping those who choose the living off the land skill tree from obtaining infinite food. That was the entire point of that skill tree. The change was designed to allow those people to continue to get infinite food via their farms, while stopping those who put no points in living off the land from also being able to create farms that yield infinite food.
No it wasn't :) It was to reduce the food in the game. However as you correctly highlighted separately, we now have tonnes of food from POI farms, from hunting, and then there's also traders and looting. As a result LOL 1 is sufficient for most players, as you find/buy everything else you need. So it's a design decision to accomplish a goal that the game then immediately breaks by giving tonnes of food in other ways. That is the definition of a broken design :)
Fuck it. At max farming, craft a tool that harvests the crops without breaking the seed. Without the tool, it's how it is now. In order to better buff it, make it so you have to water the plants or they ave a chance to die. Boom. Done.
I just finished watching IZprebuilt and he had the same opinion about the farming change, they did it in a weird way.
Yes :)
so the math is pretty much this
R0-20 corn ~5 seeds
R1-40 corn ~5 seeds
R2-40 corn ~5 seeds
R3-60 corn ~5 seeds
it takes 5 corn to make 1 seed so
R0- -5 corn ~10 seeds
R1-15 corn ~10 seeds
R2-15 corn ~10 seeds
R3-35 corn ~10 seeds
In A19 you got 30 corn at R3 LotL so it's a small buff on average for dedicated farmers. What I think they should do is rank 2 should add back the auto replant feature from A19 at the cost of 1 seed or 3 corn (or whatever type of plant). That way rank 2 indirectly increase plant yields from 15 on average to 25 on average and rank 3 from 35 to 45.
Yep! Less food is alright, but don't add tediousness :)
The big thing with open world sandbox is that the player should be able to do what they want to do. I really get sick of games that make things hard because they want you to play how they want you to. This farming stuff should be adjustable - if someone wants to create a mega-farm, let them be able to do that.
If I want to make farming a grind and be harder, I should be able to adjust it so it'll do that.
Why don't they just make them take longer to harvest? That would be easy and you wouldn't feel so cheated out with seeds. And they don't have any variation on when crops are harvestable to make much of an impact on anything. If you wanted to make farming realistic, where you're getting one harvest over a long period of time, you should be able to adjust it to that.
Like someone mentioned before, if you dont like it you can add anytime a mod for example a one which will make the seeds cheaper. The devs has made a mistake making the farming too easy and we used to it ignoring living of the land perk and doing a fine farming. I can understand the change from a dev perspective
I like complexity instead of grind when it comes to restricting access. Making it grindy and tedious just annoys people.
@@Vedui42 'I'm gonna build a huge fortress!' -- 6 months later....LOL
To me α19's farming is a little OP, build a small rooftop farm and your food is self sustained. So I think TFP's idea is to make farming harder so you have to put skill points into Living off the land. But they just overdone it, now it's almost pointless put skill point into farming.
@Toren1156 I don't like it too. I think they changed farming too much and in a bad way. Now I just do quest and eat all the canisters from vending machines instead.
Hi Ashley. Actually TFP made farming simpler. We used to need to find a hoe, then hoe ground, then find fertilizer, then fertilize ground, and then grow. TFP decided it was too complex, so made a farm plot and that's it. But then found it's so easy we get so much food, and instead of making it complex, they made it grindy and tedious. That's the worst way to resolve food abundance :)
Totally agree! The current state is horrible. Please let the seed remain after harvesting
ANYTHING is better than the way it's done right now. I like your suggestion, and I like Saven's as well. What I can say is that if they had a book series that the capstone for it was "you always get a seed from harvesting a plot", then that would be a late game total fix for this issue. As is, I've played around a hundred hours since release and I can tell you, I haven't once spec'd into fort for farming in that time at all since alpha 20 released. It simply isn't worth it, still, even a solid month after you released this video. Where are the funpimps?
Yes. I hardly use farming, I get LOL 1 for the double crops, and that's it. :)
or add a harvesting tool for crops that either gives more yield or has a chance to replant
the thing about farming is IN ALPHA 19 i never spec into farming until late game.. i get most of my food from meat killing animals & from canned foods found in poi's.. i usually save all the veg i find & make seeds out of them & just keep planting them & making more seeds... never consuming them.. id spend a lot of the early game hungry.. but, by the time im mid level to high level id have so many farm crops that I could live sustainable for the rest of the game.. for example.. my last playthru i stopped doing poi's on around day 80 & spent 60 days purely mining & building bases.. 60 days where i didnt need to look for food or water.. i dunno if it will be that easy on alpha 20 though..
Yep! I found in A20, I just do bacon n eggs and boiled meat! :)
@@Vedui42 ok... i need to get better at shooting bows though , i can only ever hit something if its not moving lol
as someone who framed a lot in a19 i like the new farming. and its the fun pimps game and we cant really say if they think we are getting more food or not.
Thanks for your feedback voodoo!
i think the best way to fix it is. they can reduce the amount of crop to craft seeds when you level the living of the land. instead of reducing the crafting cost of farm plots i %100 prefer the crafting cost of seeds
the second way i think of is they can intruduce a new nature related magazine series for eggs vegetables etc and put a magazine or magazine bonus to get seed more often or 100% chance.
One point in living off the land will make farming sustainable. Not by a bunch, but it will be sustainable with a small gain so you can grow a modest farm. A single point isn't a huge investment in making it viable. Without that point, farming will be very painful and you will be dependent on the seeds that you loot (which has been increased.)
Maybe I'm not to worried about it because I typically put one into living off the land anyways because I love the double harvest. I'm not a fan of the extra busy work of making more seeds, but whatever... It's not broken, it's a change.
Even with 1-2 points, farming is barely sustainable. All you need is a bad roll, which happens easily as it's 50-50, and your farming is set back a week :) Adding grind to limit food is a broken design, as there are so many better ways of reducing food than adding grind.
You grow a seed. You get 2 of the "fruit" but it takes 5 of the "fruit" to make another seed.
All arable farming scales with its own produce IRL. Always has. Otherwise... well, we'd all be dead
A plant has to produce enough of it's fruit AND seed for scaling and eating to be possible. Even with 3 points in the skill tree you need to destroy the plats to get 1 seed - and one of the fruit (it triples 2 per plant to 6 -
5 of which you need to craft to seed - just to replace the plant leaving 1 to eat. So even with the skill tree maxxed out - you can never get ahead.
If you like me usually play with a friend the farming will be very time consuming. There are a lot of fields but staying for longer in a server and they will all be farmed.
Yes Linda. I don't mind less food, I think that's good to make the game feel more like an apocalypse. I just don't like artificial grind :)