Suspension Basics 03: Watts Link, Triangulated Four Link and Panhard Bar Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 มี.ค. 2021
- There are multiple ways of keeping a rear axle centered under a vehicle frame. Using a miniature truck frame we show 3 of the most common designs used to locate an axle and keep it from moving side to side.
Also in this video:
How the Watts links work and a demonstration on why the Watts link does NOT cause the axle to move up and down.
How triangulated 4 links work and why you should build one.
How panhard bars work and their side effects.
My Wife's Mighty Max will be getting a parallel 4 link with a Watts link.
Subscribe to see the construction!
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I’ve been doing suspension for 30 years now... I’m pretty sure I couldn’t explain it better... well done sir...
Thank you, my man! Cheers!
Guys like you are invaluable! I wish I could buy you guys a beer or 30 for sharing with us dummies!
I have also built suspensions for years and that demo model was exactly what I need to explain to customers how it all works. Or I can just refer them to this outstanding video. Thank you.
Thank you, Kayla! No beers necessary. That was thanks enough! 🙏
Yes! Please do share @donziperk! Happy to be of service my friend.
I'm definitely not tired of these "school" type videos. I find them very helpful and your models and drawings are amazing.
I know how much time they take. I really appreciate them.
That’s good to hear. Thank you, Josh. It’s hard for me to make this type of learning interesting. I appreciate you back!
Let's not forget how nice his voice is... No homo, homies.
Haha! Thank you, Jack. 🙏
When I'm fabbing something, I refer to it as a "Shopping Cart Handle" to keep people guessing. It's especially satisfying when someone agrees with me.
Hahaha! 😂 There are so many incorrect terms that just make more sense than whatever the real term is.
Cheers, Bob!
How do you only have 26.1K subs? RIGHT?
This information is so accurate and understandable all while being articulated very well. Thanks for sharing!
Thank you Bryan! 🙏 Very much appreciated. The subs are comin! Magic is happening. Garage Fab was at 23,000 less than 3 weeks ago. 😳 A little patience and a bunch of hard work and we’ll be doing just fine.
@@GarageFab
Sub count is not important…
The effort combined with your clear desire, energy and talent to teach & demonstrate are what is !
Remarkable !
Thank you my friend! I’m not OVERLY concerned with the numbers, however, that flashy sub count is one of the few metrics that shows that people are interested and want more. It makes all the work seem like it hasn’t been wasted.
Thank you again! You’re appreciation is appreciated! ❤️
I am an offroader that usually watches jeep related channels. Yet you provided the best explanation of a triangulated four-link that I have ever seen. Thank you!
Thank you, my friend! These videos were intended for fellow Mini Truckers, but it’s been really cool to hear that people from other scenes are getting value from them. Very much appreciated. 🙏
Knowledge is among the greatest gifts that can be given, and you have a gift for giving it. Love that visual aid! Almost want to go build one just to play with. This channel is gonna be a huge success.
It is in fact a really fun adult toy. I’m hoping I can use it to demonstrate front suspension as well but I worry it’ll be too small. I predict I’m going to have to create a more life sized model. Time will tell. Thank you my man! I’m definitely trying. 😅
Totally agree. Nice work Sir. You def have a knack for teaching.
Much appreciated my friend. 🙏 See you in the next video Monday morning!
DUDE! That scale model is a GREAT idea to demonstrate how each of these types of suspension work. One that I didn't see mentioned is the parallel 4 link with a wishbone (what I'm running in the Buick). It's a combination of the parallel 4 link which gives you more adjustability for traction and the triangulated 4 link which centers the housing in the vehicle. None the less, this is a great explination.
I can't say I've seen a wishbone used WITH a parallel 4 link before I saw yours. It seems to be pretty common in the drag racing scene tho.
I've seen a lot of folks use a wishbone AS the upper bars. Pretty much the triangulated 4 link but with a single Heim at the point.
How does adding a wishbone to a parallel 4 link affect body roll? A lot of Mini Truckers like to have side to side adjustability. I can't imagine that's something you want flying down the drag strip.
Thank you, Brother!
I'm fairly dense without visually seeing so the fact that you took the time to create the model is awesome very clear and easy to understand and follow along.
Thank you for that, Ashley! It’s good to hear it wasn’t wasted time. I’ve been considering creating a similar model when we get to front suspension but it’ll be so much more complex and challenging to build. But if it helps, I guess it must be done!
You are appreciated! 🍻
I have to say, I’ve built countless rear suspension setups and this video was amazing! Not sure there is a better way to break it down and explain it!
Thank you, Mike!
I stumbled on your channel . All I have to say is WOW. Just got a new TH-cam channel set up. No content yet. A friend and I will be just showing what we enjoy from Rats and Mini Trucks : ME and 4x4 and Odd rides : Him. Please do not change from showing the educational things. This is so needed. Im 56 and loved mini trucks sense my first one in 1984. 100 show placements . Have not touched a truck in 30 years. A lot has changed . Never welded a thing. We plan to show even at 56 and 58 years old you can start a new and have fun. I just want to thank you for being willing to teach . Not everyone can or will. May GOD richly bless you for doing this.
Well it’s not often I feel young anymore, but your first Mini Truck when I was 3 helps!
Thank you my friend! I started I didn’t really consider it “teaching.” I just felt that something was missing from other automotive shows. The “why”. It’s fun to watch people build custom cars, but why do they do the things they do?
Let me know when your first video comes out! I’d like a vision in to where my hobby started. 🙌
@@GarageFab We lost most of the photos to a thief that stole most of our things and burnt the rest. My 1986 Toyota X-tra Cab long bed was bought new, and went threw several versions. First one lowered with torsion bars until the front cross member was 2 inches off ground. And lowering 4 inch blocks in rear . Rear bumper delete . 5 airbrushed beach scenes. Hood Blond in Bikini in waves to her knees. same on dash passenger side , Both bottom door insides. And across the tailgate. Craiger Prostar wheels low pro tires, Targa top and carpeted bed. Second go round was 7 colors most vette colors and the addition of a side ways tilt bed. Polished Valve cover under the hood with a modified 22R dirt track motor . Nearly 300 hp. The truck was super fun to drive and very fast. We won nearly 100 trophies in car shows. We showed everything we could find. From small shows in towns to the first South East Nationals at Charlotte Motor speedway where we got an honorable mention with nearly 1000 trucks there. We also started the 2nd Mini Truck club on the east coast of the US with Street Dreams mini trucks . Of which I was VP.
I miss it with everything in me and need my tail kicked for letting it go. You have brought back so many great memories. Again thank you.
This was insanely informative. I'm a freshman mechanical engineering student and this reminded me why I'm interested in the first place. Thank you!
That’s awesome! I have zero official education. (Building education anyway. 😂) I’m just a Tinkerer so I envy you. Good luck and thank you back!
Love the tech, illustrations and editing. Keep it coming!
I just wanna weld something!
Thank you!
THANK YOU for this video. I have to go back and watch 1 and 2. My gfs and I are so lost on this custom build. It's just this one little pice of science...
Amber and I along wit Rachel, handing us tools & supplies (& lunch!) took a 2001 Ford Ranger, tossed out the v6 motor and trans (after replacing 4 v6 sohc engines!!!), removed the front torsion bars and cut off their mounts, and now we threw a built fuel injected 302 and c6 trans in to the frame, converted the front suspension to coilovers instead of torsion bars and shocks, and now the rear is getting a triangulated 4 link and coilovers instead of leaf springs and shocks.
But honestly I have never built a rear 4 link before and so just this video alone already helps me understand a little of the geometry!
That sounds like a blast of a project! You’ve got far more patience than I have. I would’ve junked the truck after the second motor. You’ve got my attention with the 302. I’ve never used one despite it being my favorite sounding motor.
I’d love to see this creation of yours!
Thank you for the kind words, Kayla. 🙏 See you in the next one!
This was easily one of the easiest to understand videos i’ve ever watched
I’m honored. Thank you my friend. 🙏
Really great overview. I watch a few off road fabrication channels, and they usually don't get anywhere near in-depth as you on this stuff. See lots of panhard bars too! (I'm surprised how many given these vehicles have a fair bit of travel.) One common upgrade to the high end builds is a triangulated 4 link. Now I understand why. I always thought it was just for more travel.
Yep! The triangulated 4 link is a superior set up! It works great on everything and it’s really quite simple. The only reason I don’t often use it is it’s really quite simple! 😂
EXCEPTIONAL! JUST WHAT I WAS WANTING TO LEARN!!! I first found you when a client shared a video of the headboard you did where you used the black magic patina. They wanted me to use the same product on some table bases I was welding up for some wood tops they were building. Glad to see you again! Great content, editing, video/sound quality, all the things!!!
Thank you for the kind words, my friend!
How did the table bases turn out?
Glad you found the channel and I look forward to seeing you in the next one. 🙌
Cheers!
you are the king of explanations. took your info to the rc cars world, I am very new to this. thank you
Yes! Awesome to hear someone outside of the Mini Truck scene getting value. Cheers!
I really like the triangulated four-link I installed on my S-10 Blazer Extreme, as it gave that little truck a road-racer feel - we're talking serious lateral Gs. Air Ride has a front suspension upgrade/mod that completely eliminates the bump-steer so inherent to that chassis and it drives like its on rails and puts a big cheeseburger grin on my face every time I go through some twisties on some random backroad. Driver bliss!
I’d love to see what that kit looks like. You make it sound awesome. 👏
@@GarageFab Sadly, a drunk driver took it out, while parked in front of my sister's house one Saturday morning - about a month ago. I'm looking for a replacement vehicle to swap all of my go-fast goodies over to. Would love to find another 2DR Blazer - love the look. Wouldn't mind a stepside, like an extrnded cab Sanoma or something similar. I'd just gotten ahold of an LS6 off Craig's List, to drop in, as well. Makes me ill just thinking about it. smh The suspension kit from AirRide is pretty sweet, w/ adjustable Shockwave airshocks up front and similar in back w/ a triangulated 4-link underneath, but it wasn't cheap, at just over $5K. Took a while to collect the ducats on a fixed income. Not sure I can even make a "replacement" happen.
I’m rewatching this series before I start my 88 S10 4link setup. I love the way your mighty max is set up so I’m ordering a Thornros. Super lift triangulated 4link I want to use 30” bars for the least amount of pinion angle change. Love the videos! Keep em coming buddy!
to effect a longer arm for most suspensions shunt the top section back, it has the efect of a longer top bar for most usual suspension travels, it does however place the pinion nose in an S formation of travel. Also for a more sturdy "triangulated 4 bar", just create a solid A frame and so the axle has a single pivot point (whether a ball or rose joint it makes no odds).
In all cases the suspension will travel in a curve, it's physics of tying one end to a fixed point, because on a Watt's link there are 2 tied ends the curve is different above the medium and below it, so you will get a S shaped travel, it might not be very pronounced but it's goin to be there. It's good that you highlighted this but only effects in extreme upper and lower positions. The longer the centre pivot bar the more pronounced the S will be.
All suspension setups have disadvantages, it's finding the one you can live with it's disadvantages or the disadvantages don't come into play on your amount of travel.
Love these lessons as much as the builds. There's a lot of people in the mini truckin scene, new and old, that can benefit from knowing the basics. Build it right the first time.
Agreed! I learned a bit from Mini Truckin Joe's TH-cam back in the day and I was super grateful. I always kinda wanted to be that guy.
Thank you, Brother.
Don’t know how I stumbled across your channel but happy I’m here and a new subscriber!
Yes! Thank you. I’ll be following you as well. I’ve been wanting to learn about powder coating for a while now.
well I just found one of my new favourite channels
Thank you, Logan! Glad to have you. 🙏 See you Monday morning. 👍
Man am watching this over and over and over again... am so glad I found your channel.. I need to start doing my own suspension work, am sick to my stomach on waiting for my trucks suspensions to get finished ( 3 trucks in 3 different shops) there is not a single responsible professional shop around every one is surviving taking half of the money from somebody to complete somebody else’s project and it’s the same BS all over.... am a pipe welder and can fabricate as well and finding the time is always been my biggest struggle...
I feel you you, my man. Time is rare. But sounds like you’ve about had enough crap and you’re about to discover a bunch of time. I’m excited to see what you do. 🙌
I'm so glad I found your channel on the tube. Sir, you are a very good teacher!
Cheers & stay safe🙂
Thank you, Franc! Glad you found it too! See you in the next!
I'm really enjoying your content. In our town there are zero suspension specialists. Only OEM parts replacement "specialists"/"technicians". Your channel is guiding me through my 2, now forced, DIY projects. D21 Nissan & 521 Datsun. Thanks again from sunny 🇿🇦🇿🇦✌
That’s exciting to hear! I said in a video once, “If you don’t have a fabricator in your area, now is a good time to become a fabricator in your area.”
If you’ve got questions, feel free to ask! I’ll be answering every comment until I’m overwhelmed with comments.
Best of luck on your builds my friend. And thank you for your kind words! 🙏
@@GarageFab I definitely will, thanks again.
First off, this is an excellent video, I love the model as well, that's awesome :)
The big trap with a triangulated four link is the forces; the longer the four link upper bars the higher the forces, but the forces in a triangulated four link will never be as low as the forces in a Watt's link. In the case of the model you've presented I'd guess that the angle of the links is something in the order of 30 degrees off the vehicle axis. That means that the link forces will be approximately double those of the Watt's link. You'll end up with a higher risk of linkage collapse as well, because you've got a longer link than parallel four links, with the added forces associated with both the drive and longitudinal forces as well as the lateral force adder. This can substantially increase the chance of long column collapse. Additionally it'll put a lot higher loads on the chassis attachment points. It'll also potentially limit the life of the joints.
IMO the best linkage setup for anyone who's not smashing it with a CAD or specific suspension design program is probably three link with watts or panhard bar... It's a lot more fault tolerant than other suspension designs for live axle. If you've got the knowledge to look at joint compliance for a four link, then a parallel four link is better, but without correct bush design it'll bind and can damage bushes or mechanically lock at certain positions.
Triangulated four links will also create lateral axle movements, but this movement occurs when you lift a single wheel.
just found your channel, watched the one on the Watts bar and subbed right after that.
Thrilled to have you my friend! You’ve caught me on a biweekly video spree. Trying to keep that going as long as possible. I’ll see you NEXT weekend! 🙌
Those Mighty Max were cool
My favorite. ❤️
bro you are clear and concise, great explanations and that model helps with it all. well though out and well delivered
Thank you my man! Your kind words are greatly appreciated.
Brilliant video, much appreciated. I am just about to start a 1950 Ford Prefect project, this vid has helped me decide on the triangulated 4 bar for my rear end - a shortened Volvo 244 live axle.
Thank you my friend! I was not familiar with the Volvo axle before today. I had to do some looking. Does it have a factory watts link installed?
You may already know this, but if you have a watts link, a triangulated 4 link isn’t needed. And conversely if you have a triangulated 4 link, a watts link isn’t needed. Either way, I’m excited to see what you build! I haven’t seen a whole lot of Prefects rolling around. (Ok I haven’t seen any) The more rare the better!
Cheers!
@@GarageFab The axle has no Watts link on it - it's just a bare , straight axle at the moment.
I've never modified a truck's suspension or ,what I'd really love to do, built one from scratch. But this is the sort of stuff that I love thinking through in my head. Imagining how to constrain movement in every direction except the one you want to maximize it in while keeping the design as light as possible. Looking forward to watching more the series.
You and I are the same my friend. I don’t need much to entertain myself. Just a challenging thought exercise. Happy to have you! 🍻
Dude !!! What a fantastic video!!! Im building a rat rod right now and I'm building the frame from scratch and was wondering what type of rear suspension to go with. I bought a book called chassis engineering and I still didn't understand it as well as your explanations in this video. Thank you !!
Nice! Did you decide what design you’re going to go with? If you’ve got questions, you know where to find me. 👊
@@GarageFab yes!! With your help I've decided to go with the watts link and the parallel link to go with my air bags. I'm building a rat rod out of a 39 ford and built my own frame. I'll be doing the suicide front suspension too. That's the next thing I have to figure out. Do you have any videos on that topic ?
Not only do I not have videos, I’m not familiar with Suicide front suspension. (Or at least the terminology) I’ll be looking into it though!
@@GarageFab the suicide front end has one leaf spring going from side to side with the parallel bars on each side.
A great help. I'm trying to build a rear end for a 1/25 scale nova. This was great especially the model to actually see close up
That’s exciting to hear the info being used for something other than life sized vehicles. I’d love to see what you create! Hit me up on Instagram @GarageFab
Great video, excellent display models! Thanks for sharing and posting!
Thank you, my friend. 🙏
What a fantastic vid/series. Great job.
I learn a lot from you technically and theoretically. Endless thanks you are awesome
Thank you!! Your words are greatly appreciated. There’s more on the way. Soon I hope. 😉
Thank-you 🤜🏾/l am researching the link process for my chevy S-10 and the youtube(Al) brought me to this video--so this video reads over a year ago and l want to be careful in saying you just invited us to10 years worth of knowledge in a 12:36 setting. So not to possibly start a comment war...and that's not even close enough-l will be going back to the start of your videos and thanks again. When l actually do start my s-10 build the 4-link will be my choice 💥💯
You are appreciated my man! I hope you find the videos helpful.
Can’t wait to see what you build! 🙌
Well done on the mini examples and explanations. I am happy TH-cam steered me your way. Keep it up!
SUBSCRIBED.
Thank you my friend! I am also grateful.
I plan to create a model for the front suspension as well since I have a feeling my current model will be too small to accurately show anything of value.
Hope to see you there! 🍻
Absolutely brilliant. Exactly what I needed to learn. Thanks!
👍👍😎👍👍 - you make it easy to keep moving forward. This episode helped clarify a few things for me. Thank you
Much appreciated man! 🍻
Awesome so informational I'm grateful for you educating me on this I think you saved me from making a huge mistake on my C10
Thank you Chris! I’m dying to know what that “huge mistake” might have been. 😂
What a great series. I learned a ton.
Thank you my friend. Happy to be of service.
Great video! thank you! I have a pretty good background, you explained the intricate parts in a way that was easily understandable! The triangulated 4 link is the best rear setup! now I have to get busy!! I'm building an off road Jeep so I need more travel, hence the better geometry is even more important!
I knew I was right! Nobody in my searches ever addresses what seems to be the norm in all triangulated kits, that the top bars are tooooo short ( even before considering the angle). Now I just need to find a kit with proper length bars.
I imagine that’s probably a challenge. I’ve learned over the years that frame widths vary so much it would be pretty much impossible to create a universal Triangulated 4 link. As the angle of the bars change the length would need to change as well.
It seems the only way to really get exactly what you need would be to make them yourself. 🤷♂️
@@GarageFab Thanks and Great video productions! You make me laugh!
Strange... I just got a comment notification from you but no comments could be found.🤔
Thanks for explaining that, keep them coming
Thank you, Jay! There's a few more on the way.
The model really helped me understand, great video
Excellent! Thank you, Justin. 🙌
GREAT VIDEO LOVE THE SOUND EFFECTS
Thank you, Mike! I had to rewatch to see what you were talking about. 😂
Very good job explaining
Love your show it shares great knowledge.easy to understand
Thank you, Bob!
Good explanation! Subscribed.
Welcome! Happy to have you. See you in the next one!
Very well explained... I really appreciate the way you explain.. Thank you..
Thank you my man!
I just found your channel. You do a great job of explaining suspension. I’ve only watched 2 videos so far.
Thank you, Chris! There will be many more to come. Cheers!!
I’m rebuilding the suspension on my 4runner (off-roader). I’m doing a solid axle front axle swap and 3 link with a panhard. I will eventually revamp the rear suspension and make it a 3 link with a panhard too. Pinion angle and anti-squat and anti/dive are huge concerns.
Sounds like a cool project! I’d like to see the front axle when you’re done. I work on Toyotas all day every day and have never seen a front solid axle 4 runner. 😳
@@GarageFab I don’t know how to send you a private message. I can send you some pictures of my progress.
Hit me up on Instagram @GarageFab!
I've been watching your link geometry videos so far and I love them! Thank you so much! My only question is what determines the length of the lower link to start basing everything else off of? Maybe you'll discuss this in a future video?
Thank you, Andrew! I do plan on including that in one of the next couple videos right after we weld link bar tabs onto the crossmember. In my process, the link bars are made to fit your vehicle so you won’t know the lengths until just before you need to install them. My process goes a little like this:
One of the first things you need to do when starting the rear suspension, even before taking the factory suspension out, is mark the frame where the rear axle is positioned. This mark should be pretty close to center in the wheel opening. Later you can determine if this mark is where the wheel will be positioned at ride height or when it’s laying on the pavement. (Personal preference)
Second thing is building the front crossmember where the link bar tabs will be. Ideally, on adjustable suspension, the goal is to make the link bars as close to the length of the drive shaft as possible. Usually the best we can do is just make them as long as we can by putting the crossmember directly behind the cab. There will be a video explaining why soon as well.
Third step is welding link bar tabs to the cross member. Now if you position your axle where you want it, you can determine the length of the link bars by measuring the distance from the holes in the front link bar tabs to center of the axle. Once link bars are made to that measurement. Only then can you put the bars in place and create link bar tabs for the axle.
Hope this helps. Explaining clearly in text is much harder than video.
@@GarageFab I'm actually building an offroad application, so minor differences here and there haha, but everything you've explained so far and in this response as well has been a HUGE help. I'm following along perfect so your explanations have been great. So basically I'm gathering lower link length should IDEALLY be equal length to the driveshaft (which makes sense for plunge and pinion angle), although typically we can only make them as long as practical per project platform.
Us offroad guys typically mount the lowers to the outside of the frame rails and somewhere under the cab, so it sounds like I should make the links as long as possible without hitting the cab at full bump, while keeping in mind the geometry for pinion angle to decide upper link length, and may have to shorten up lower link length for optimal geometry.
Looking forward to following videos! Really enjoying the wealth of knowledge.
It sounds like you understand perfectly. Luckily most drive shafts have a slip yoke, so matching the link length to the drive shaft isn’t mandatory but it’s still a good thing to keep in mind especially if you expect a lot of travel. Over-look this tidbit and you might find yourself ramming the drive shaft into the trans or pulling the drive shaft out. Both would suck.
Keep in mind that there’s a lot of important info you likely won’t get on my channel since most of my knowledge is rooted in air suspension.
Things like instant center go out the window when you install parallel bars which may or may not be important in off-road scenarios. Make sure you talk to folks with more knowledge than me in that department.
Yup your saying it right and your awesome .. excellent content as usual keep up the best suspension channel on the internet PERIOD !!!
Thank you my friend. 🙏
Dam superb job. Thank you professor. I know you had fun making that frame on a bench. Can't wait to see the front end.
I did have fun with that! I was hoping to use that model for explaining front suspension as well but I worry it’s much too small. Not sure I have the time for microscopic sculpting of control arms.
Thank you! I appreciate you.
@@GarageFab It takes a special type of person to want to go way out of their way and take up amounts of their time in attempt to educate others.
I imagine there’s some selfishness in there somewhere. If I wasn’t having fun, I wouldn’t do it.
Thank you, my friend. I greatly appreciate your kind words. 🍻
@@GarageFab str8 up.
I have watched several of your videos. I like them a lot. I am getting ready to install a 96 Cougar IRS into my "Project Boat Tail" Roadster on my channel. I will be recommending your videos on understanding suspension. You are doing a great job.
Thank you my friend! I’ll be watching the progress. I look forward to it. Best of luck, Brother!
So far you have made it simple to understand, What I want to see is left right wheel travel as in off road or even un even ground conditions. How far can your desk top model left tire lift and not twist the frame using a 4 bar set up? Most 4 bar set ups are for drag strips and level roads. Lets try for a 10 inch wheel travel design. Thanks.
Thank you, Rex! One of the most common link bar set ups for off-road (especially rock crawlers) is the Triangulated 4 link, or even the Double Triangulated 4 link. Two main things that prevent articulation is the bar ends and the chassis/body. If you use Heim joints with misalignment spacers on the bar ends, you can get a crazy amount of articulation. So much that the tires would hit the fenders, and without fenders the axle would hit the frame.
This is the problem with my model. The 4 bar setup would allow lots of articulation, but the frame would get in the way of the bars full capability.
Another thing that limits articulation is the lateral axle locating mechanism. (Panhard bar or watts link) this is what makes the Triangulated bar set up so good. No lateral axle locating system is needed. You can find images on the Internet of rock crawlers with the rear axle 90° from the front axle. So crazy!
Really great video! I have a question about the triangulated 4 link. Does the angle of the bushing on the triangulated link bars affect anything?
For example, sometimes the bushings are parallel to the axle (so the bolt going through the bushing would be parallel to the axle) and where the link bar meets the bushing there is an angle.
Sometimes I see setups where the bushings are perpenducular to the link bar (so the bolt going through the bushing is perpendicular to the bar) and the bushing is at an angle compared to the axle.
Not sure if that makes sense or not. But I was wondering if there is a difference between these setups?
Hey Brad! It absolutely makes sense. You worded it perfectly. Also this is a topic I am constantly debating with people!
First let’s start with the fact that polyurethane bushing material doesn’t like excessive deflection.(compression, stretching, twisting, etc.) Too much and they split, or smash and don’t rebound, or they get soft. Poly bushings are intended to rotate around the bolt like a hinge.
When you mount angled bar bushings so that they are parallel to the axle, the bushings will rotate around the axis’ that pass through the bolts as the suspension cycles.
When you mount them perpendicular to the bars, these axis’ don’t change, but because the bushings are angled the axis’ pass diagonally through the bushings.
As the suspension cycles on this style, the bushings are seeing unnatural deflection.
In essence, the bushings are being pulled to the side.
This is acceptable on static height suspension vehicles. If setup properly, the bushings will be at rest at half travel. Poly bushings will last longest of they’re pushed and pulled on straight. (The way they would be if the bars were straight.)
So this is the ideal setup for static height triangulated 4 links. Bushings perpendicular to the bars.
Here’s where my opinion comes in. When you slap air suspension on something you now have double or triple the amount of suspension travel, upwards of 12 inches. Even when set up properly, (bushings at rest at half travel) this is pushing the poly bushings sideways far beyond their intended deflection.
By mounting the bushings to the angled bars so that they are parallel to the axle, their movement is natural except when the body is leaning. This is how I believe a bagged/juice triangulated 4 link should be set up, and so this is how I build them.
Just know that this design will cause much more force on the flanges of the bushings as the weight of the vehicle shifts to the side on turns. Bushings are not designed for this either, however from my experience they last much longer than their over-deflected cousins.
This was long winded. Hope it made sense. If you need clarification, lemme know.
Cheers!
Is this why you are moving away from the 4 link design that is on the truck from the previous owner?
I’m so proud right now, Chris. 😃
That is the exact reason I switched. I could have just changed the upper bushings to suit my preferences but I wanted more content for the channel.
Another reason I felt a switch was needed was the original builder made the upper links adjustable (threaded) but didn’t install any Heim joints. This caused the bushings to continually loosen the jam nut.
Excellent video bro.
You are my Teacher of Suspension sciences.
Haha! Thank you my friend. 🙏
Fantastic model!
Thank you Dave! Glad you enjoyed.
Nicely done.
Thank you, Joe!
This is awesome I need the video of you doing this on your mighty max
It’s in progress! Check out the Mighty Max playlist. So far the crossmember (“shopping cart handle”) and link bar tabs have been installed and the link bar making video is in production.
Love the episodes brother keep up the good mahi 🤙🏾🤙🏾🤙🏾🤙🏾
Thank you as always, my man. ♥️
Great video, very informative
Thank you, Barry! You are appreciated. 🙏
great explanation!
Happy to be of service my friend!
Great instructional video
Much appreciated! Hope it comes in handy.
Great job, keep it up!!
Thank you, Beto! 🍻
Awesome video man
Thank you, Lim. 🍻
you're killing it!!!!
Thank you, Dirk!
Nice informative video, thanks 👍
Thank you, Christopher. 🍻
Great video
Thank you, Stephan!
Realmente muy buen video, excelente explicacion y saludo desde argentina
spot on! great info!
Yes! Thank you for watching, William.
Another great video
Thanks brother!! 🙌
When I swapped from stock 4-link on my 94 ram cummins to radius arms on the front suspension. I did one side at a time and when I did it I adjusted the radius arm to match the angle maintained by the side that still had the 4 link installed. The angle was perfect and then did the same thing when changing the second side. I think it would work for installing the 4 link if you can maintain one side at a time, or at least get your angles before you disassemble.
You're such a good teacher
Very much appreciated, Adib! 🙏 Thank you.
I like these videos keep them coming.
First video in a while drops today at 6pm Pacific!
Thank you for the kind words!
Amazing. Your channel is going to explode
Here’s to hoping my friend! Thank you for the kind words. You are appreciated. 🙌
Thanks for the info!
Anytime my friend!
Great video.
Thank you Mark! 🙏
New subscriber right here! Good stuff
Thank you Shawn! See you in the next one. 🍻
I'm running through the basics play list and hope you address why you chose what you did over what was already in the truck.
I’d love to explain. What specifically are you referring to?
Thanks for keeping it simple and short. I loose interest after :15 minutes of most videos. Great job.
Thank you my friend! I appreciate your appreciation. It takes more effort to shorten a video than it does to film it. Ugh 😩
Excellent videos and yes I have watched several of yours, all great!
Question: I am in the process of installing "bigger" axles in my Jeep TJ, I am "attempting" to use a high steer set up and well it's interfering with EVERYTHING LOL. I figured out a combination that works but I need to move my track bar up, forward and outboard on the axle side and forward on the frame side. What rules do I need to follow? Can I move the bar forward without issue? The drag link is almost perfectly level at ride height, I can fab brackets to nearly match it with the track bar. Moving the mounts/bar forward means away from the axle center in my case further away from the control arm brackets.
Thx for the info
It really helped me 🤙🤙
My pleasure, Ryan! 🍻
I use all your tech to build killer model truck frames .for my builds I've built the 4 link 3link bar the watts link also looks killer at model car contest
That’s amazing! I’ve never considered using this stuff on anything but real trucks. I’d love to see your work. Ever considered building models for commission? I bought two Dodge D50 models a few years ago with the intent to cut the cabs in half and bond them together to make a wider truck. (The same way I did my real D50) I don’t know how to do plastic work though!
The entire reason I found you was because of the old sbc ram 50 these are great
Sweet!! Stick around, Richard. That truck (and it’s offspring) is coming back better than ever as soon as my Wife’s second Gen Mighty Max is running. It’s gonna be all kinds of fun.
Arron again awesome video! It’s like the suspension handbook on video! What did you use to make that model I would love to try to make one for my Nissan Hardbody before I bag it so I can really set it up properly the first time.
Keep up the great work!
The frame is just half inch square steel tubing that I cut and bent into shape and I purchased the link bars from Amazon. I believe they were for an SCX10 RC car. It came with a few different lengths which was super helpful for this. (I had to cut one in half and re-tap for the Watts link though)
Thank you!
Can you do a video on triangular 4 link suspension. Similar to the watt link video in your channel.
Have a kp60 Toyota starlet and currently doing a diff swap and need to weld on the tabs. The axis are not in line
Please and thanks in advance.
Amazing video. I ha e searched countless hours trying to learn about suspensions for pro- touring and Autocross trying to decide the. Best style of suspension to run and I've been spinning my wheels before finding ur videos. I have seen some pro-touring built chassis with torque arms. I'm running a 2dr 01 Blazer. Which do u think would. E better for pro-touring? Torque arm, triangulated 4 link, 3 link, parallel 4 link? It would be cool to see you do a video explaining the difference between pros and cons of a Torque arm and triangulated 4 link and a 3 link. Thanks for everything you do. My new favorite channel
I love your videos! I found them a few weeks ago, when trying to figure out what a pan hard bar was. Yesterday I bought a 69 c10 to bag thanks to you lol. You made things really easy to understand!
One question that never got answered in this video it why you’re switching to the parallel with the watts link from the triangulated 4-link. Is it easier to set up or is it a clearance thing? I would be very interested in a video on setting up the triangulated 4-link especially after seeing your video on the u-joint oscillations.
Anyway thanks again. You definitely deserve the sub. Hope many many more are to follow!
Hey, James! Thank you my friend. 🙏
The triangulated 4 link is one of the best (if not THE best) setup for air suspension. It gives you truly straight up and down movement no matter how much lift your suspension has, and doesn’t require an axle locator (like a panhard bar or watts link)
My reasoning for moving away from the triangulated 4 link probably won’t be very helpful to you.
Reason one: I’m a TH-camr. Leaving the suspension alone would make for a really boring video! 🥱 I wanted to change things just so I could film it.
I chose a Watts link for the same reason. A panhard bar would work, (though not recommended for air suspension) but a simple bar isn’t nearly as interesting as the Watts link.
Here’s how my decisions actually progressed; I planned to install a turbo motor so I wanted to install a stronger axle. I also wanted to install 5 lug wheels so I opted for a Mustang GT axle.
I wasn’t thrilled with how the original builder of the truck built the upper link bars so I decided to redo them since I had to redo the link bar tabs on the axle anyway.
I was starting the channel so it seemed like a great excuse to change everything up. I really wanted to do a Watts Link video and the triangulated setup doesn’t require one.
So there you have it.
I can’t wait to see what you do with the C10! Best of luck!
Very informative nice 👍 job
Thank you my friend! 🙏
I understand what you’re saying..:: leaf springs
Nice video, the little model was very cool. I built a wish bone style bar for my 56 Truck. I have a lot of travel so I thought this would work the best. And because I have a steep driveway. Panard bar was not going to work, and to be honest I didn't know about the Watts style then.
Sweet! The wishbone is just as good if not better. I think the Watts is a tiny bit more stable in the corners but not enough for most folks to notice.
Sometimes simplicity is best.
Thank you Ryan!
Awesome. I have a triangulated 4 link setup but the triangle is anchored to the shopping cart handle at the centerpoint. I'm sure the theory is the same. Can you cover an anti-sway bar at some point. Awesome everything on these videos!
Hello algorithm, this man here! He's the on that's supposed to be on the front page!
Haha! I don’t know who this “Al” guy everyone is praying to. I don’t think he exists. But heck, keep me in your prayers! 🙌
Just found your video, awesome,and very informative. My question is,axle link bar placement and frame crossmember placement. 30deg or 45deg? And link bar length difference? Like 70% longer lower bar? I'm linking up my 68 fairlane fastback.
Hey mark! Thank you! You are very much appreciated. 🙏 Tell me a little about your plans. What type of suspension? Parallel 4 link or Triangulated 4 link? Static or adjustable height? What do you plan to do with your Fairlane? Race it? Just cruise the streets? Things vary a LOT with different types of suspensions and uses. Things also change from car to car because physics change.
I can try and steer you in the right direction but I’m not sure how specific I can be. But I’m happy to try!
Very well said sir....
Thank you, Brandon. 🙏
Super informational explanation.
Do rear link have to match the front links in length or can front be shorter because of lack of space.
I already build rear links the length of upper and lower is same length about 1 meter.
Glad you enjoyed my friend!
Front links won’t have anything to do with the rears. In general, the longer the better, within reason. Longer bars will minimize the amount an axle moves forward and back as the suspension moves, but link bars also need to play nicely with drive shafts. The closer the link bars are in length to the drive shaft, the less the driveshaft has to move (via the slip yoke)
4 wheel drive trucks will usually have a shorter front drive shaft so shorter Link bars would be expected.
Hopefully this makes sense. If not, I have a video planned that I’ll call “Third Links” that will talk about the relationship between Suspension components and non suspension components like drive shafts, CV axles, steering Tie Rods etc.