Thanks for posting this, how can this only have 216 views and no comments? I have been search a good youtube recording for this piece and happy to find Richter version here
I’m going to be controversial and say the problem with piano sonatas of this period are all the tedious repeats. I think they should be left out in circumstances where the composer was trying to get more gas mileage out of his material, I.e the first repeat but not the recapitulations. Does the listener really care if the AABA structure is changed?
Jake Holmes I get your point, but yes I do care. Failing to follow the composers’ da capo instructions - not optional take-it-or-leave-it suggestions - or only partly doing so, unbalances both the movement and often the work as a whole. Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven - plus many later composers - marked the repeats for a reason, not just out of habit. There are occasions when all three specifically omitted the repeat marks, so we know that when they put them in, they intended them to be followed. The repeat instructions are as important as any other directions relating to tempo, mood, dynamics or any other instructions. Re sonata form: the Exposition lays out the ideas; normally a first and second subject. The second subject is either contrasting as usually found in Mozart, or it is quite often related, as found in Haydn particularly, but also in Beethoven. After laying out the two ideas - the 1st and 2nd subjects - then comes the da capo/repeat instruction. The Development and Recapitulation come after Exposition - there is sometimes a Coda too - this section is also to be repeated, though the coda only after the second repeat. In keyboard works, part of the purpose of the repeats is to allow the pianist to vary or decorate the musical ideas according to their skill; occasionally, as in the slow movement of Mozart’s sonata K311, the composer removes the repeat marks and instead writes out the decorated repeat section in full - but it is still in effect a repeat. In recordings, these extempore improvisations can become irksome; in live concerts, heard only once, they can be very interesting when done well with some reference to period style and practice. I think it’s also worth remembering that in the 18th or 19th century, minus recordings, TH-cam, radio, tv et cetera, listeners were happy to listen to the repeats as they were unlikely to hear a work again any time soon, whereas today, we have almost anything at our fingertips, and are just that bit more impatient. I don’t think you’re gas mileage point - kilometridge? for the non-English speaking world - was ever in any composers’ mind. It’s not controversial; you’ve raised a good point that is worth discussing.
Good counter argument on the lack of recordings available at the time. I wonder how many performers do vary the repeat with embellishments etc, I for one would enjoy hearing these incorporated into performance.
Jake Holmes The varied repeats is an interesting topic. CPE Bach wrote about it and provided whole sonatas written out to demonstrate the point; he was an important figure in the second half of the 18th century as his manual on the art of keyboard playing (the ‘Versuch’), became the basis of modern keyboard technique and playing, and was the starting point for all future manuals. Haydn studied the Versuch very carefully, Mozart knew it, and Beethoven was still using it in the early 19th century; all three knew well the associated sonatas and a number of CPE’s other keyboard works. A bit long-winded, but the point is that I think most modern pianists have lost, or rather, never learnt the skills that were common to the composers mentioned above. One example of a pianist who has tried the varied repeats is Lang Lang in Mozart’s well known Sonata Facile K545; it’s worth checking out for interest, but the results to my ears are tasteless, irritating, in fact downright horrible, and not something I would wish to hear more than once.
I get your point, but I have a hard time believing composers of the caliber of Haydn needed to “get more gas mileage” out of material. They could simply write new material to fill a certain spot in a composition instead of rehashing a previous episode as filler. Composers like Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, are once in a century geniuses and don’t need to get away with fluff.
Божественное исполнение сонаты Гайдна! Один из лучших пианистов Святослав Тиафилович Рихтер!
I. 0:12
II. 7:23
III. 11:11
Thanks for posting this, how can this only have 216 views and no comments? I have been search a good youtube recording for this piece and happy to find Richter version here
Richter is always right.
@@liloruf2838 True, now i'ts visited by 7778 musical lovers :-)
because people are dumb and understand nothing
True, now it’s 27,415 views.
Learning this sonata atm great to see Richter's performance of it. Thanks for uploading.
Marvelous, virtuoso doesn't begin to describe it!
(00:14) 01 Allegro Moderato
(07:24) 02 Menuet
(11:13) 03 Finale. Presto
Thank you
east to see/hear why and that SR loved FJH so much
H moll
and n° 47
One of Haydn's greatest masterworks
Лучшая соната Гайдна в лучшем исполнении!!!
I’m going to be controversial and say the problem with piano sonatas of this period are all the tedious repeats. I think they should be left out in circumstances where the composer was trying to get more gas mileage out of his material, I.e the first repeat but not the recapitulations. Does the listener really care if the AABA structure is changed?
yes
Jake Holmes
I get your point, but yes I do care.
Failing to follow the composers’ da capo instructions - not optional take-it-or-leave-it suggestions - or only partly doing so, unbalances both the movement and often the work as a whole.
Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven - plus many later composers - marked the repeats for a reason, not just out of habit.
There are occasions when all three specifically omitted the repeat marks, so we know that when they put them in, they intended them to be followed.
The repeat instructions are as important as any other directions relating to tempo, mood, dynamics or any other instructions.
Re sonata form: the Exposition lays out the ideas; normally a first and second subject.
The second subject is either contrasting as usually found in Mozart, or it is quite often related, as found in Haydn particularly, but also in Beethoven.
After laying out the two ideas - the 1st and 2nd subjects - then comes the da capo/repeat instruction.
The Development and Recapitulation come after Exposition - there is sometimes a Coda too - this section is also to be repeated, though the coda only after the second repeat.
In keyboard works, part of the purpose of the repeats is to allow the pianist to vary or decorate the musical ideas according to their skill; occasionally, as in the slow movement of Mozart’s sonata K311, the composer removes the repeat marks and instead writes out the decorated repeat section in full - but it is still in effect a repeat.
In recordings, these extempore improvisations can become irksome; in live concerts, heard only once, they can be very interesting when done well with some reference to period style and practice.
I think it’s also worth remembering that in the 18th or 19th century, minus recordings, TH-cam, radio, tv et cetera, listeners were happy to listen to the repeats as they were unlikely to hear a work again any time soon, whereas today, we have almost anything at our fingertips, and are just that bit more impatient.
I don’t think you’re gas mileage point - kilometridge? for the non-English speaking world - was ever in any composers’ mind.
It’s not controversial; you’ve raised a good point that is worth discussing.
Good counter argument on the lack of recordings available at the time. I wonder how many performers do vary the repeat with embellishments etc, I for one would enjoy hearing these incorporated into performance.
Jake Holmes
The varied repeats is an interesting topic.
CPE Bach wrote about it and provided whole sonatas written out to demonstrate the point; he was an important figure in the second half of the 18th century as his manual on the art of keyboard playing (the ‘Versuch’), became the basis of modern keyboard technique and playing, and was the starting point for all future manuals.
Haydn studied the Versuch very carefully, Mozart knew it, and Beethoven was still using it in the early 19th century; all three knew well the associated sonatas and a number of CPE’s other keyboard works.
A bit long-winded, but the point is that I think most modern pianists have lost, or rather, never learnt the skills that were common to the composers mentioned above.
One example of a pianist who has tried the varied repeats is Lang Lang in Mozart’s well known Sonata Facile K545; it’s worth checking out for interest, but the results to my ears are tasteless, irritating, in fact downright horrible, and not something I would wish to hear more than once.
I get your point, but I have a hard time believing composers of the caliber of Haydn needed to “get more gas mileage” out of material. They could simply write new material to fill a certain spot in a composition instead of rehashing a previous episode as filler. Composers like Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, are once in a century geniuses and don’t need to get away with fluff.
Banging, little nuanced.
Good or bad?