The Lord is amazing. I did not get past the 4 minute mark before I shared my first post. Then I shared my thoughts on it, from a different perspective. The amazing part is that my senior pastor shared his thoughts on 2 Thess at our men's breakfast this morning. Too Cool.😎
Many top Scholars like the well known Reformed Theologian R C Sproul, Dr Ken Gentry, Bruce Gore, John Alley, Hank Hanegraaff (who is 'The Bible Answer Man, on U tube ) claim that 2 Thess 2, the entire chpt, found it's total fulfillment in the first Century. That the falling away must come first which is the Apostasy of the first Century Jews as they abandon the Truth and go back to their Judaism. ' The coming of our Lord Jesus ' is not talking about the second coming in this particular instance but is referring to the coming Judgement of Christ on Israel for his Crucifixion, the killing of the Prophets, the stoning of Stephen. This Judgement started in AD 66 and ended in AD 73. It's great culmination was the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple AD 70. Why on planet Earth would Paul be writing 2000 years ago to the Thessalonians to tell them about things thousands and thousands of years yet future to them that has absolutely No Relevance to them and is of Absolutely of No interest to them who were already under persecution and living in hardship. V5 Remember when I was with you and spoke to you face to face about these things. Paul's was speaking to them about things that are going to affect them big time in their very near future. Of the same view as this is the well known Reformed Theologian R C Sproul, Dr Ken Gentry, Bruce Gore, Eugene Peterson, Gary DeMar Doug Wilson, John Alley and Hank Hanegraaff ( who is the Bible Answer Man on U tube) All of the above believe that Nero is the " Lawless One, the Man of Sin, " in this chapter, except for Hank Hanegraaff who claims it's Caligula. DR Ken Gentry has an excellent Vid on U tube simply titled ' 2 Thess 2 ' where he does an indepth study of this chpt and explains in detail why it has to find it's total fulfillment in the first Century.
My father is a pastor and he believes in a pre-trib rapture, I have sorta, for the most part of my life, although lately I don't havr that topic so clear. 2nd and longer part on this topic is a must haha!!! Praying it happens!!
As a graduate of a dispensational Bible College, I can affirm that, at least in the last half of the previous century, a distinction between Israel and the Church in God's economy was foundational to dispensationalism.
Dispensationalism is False. It was something John Nelson Darby invented about 180 years ago and it became popular. Darby in his later life left the Plymouth Brethren and started " The Exclusive Brethren " a Cult ? 😕😏🥴😞
MAKING A DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEWS AND THE REST OF MANKIND IS A SIN AGAINST GOD'S WORD. Rom. 10 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him 1 Cor. 12 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit Gal. 3 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
@@LastDaySaintJames Correct !! God Does Not have 2 distinct peoples. He only has one, and that is the people of God. The Unscholarly Darby invented the Two distinct peoples so if he invented it we know that it must be wrong. And you have proved it by quoting all of the telling Scriptures. Graduating from a Dispensationalists College is not something our friend should be Boasting about, to be honest.
All Bibles up until the 1611 KJV use "departing" except the Bishops Bible which was not well Received at the time. The day of the Lord is not the same as 'our gathering together unto him'. That is why people confuse 2Thess 2:3.
The WHEAT are children of the kingdom, Matthew 13:8. We aren't children of the kingdom during the Church Age. We are Children of God by faith in Christ, Galatians 3:26
616 instead of 666?? NEVER heard of that! Where did you get that from? I'm not getting ANY marks so I'm good..just never heard of that and would like to know where it come from?
Bravo Dwayne Green, your take on this that you said prior to the 17 minute mark states you totally get the idea of eminance as being our own last day on earth like Stephen's was in Acts 7, read it for yourselves brothers and sisters in the faith of Jesus Christ. As far as Christ return to gather all us believers world wide, there are a lot of prophetic events to occur before He returns and the great false teaching of pre trib theology is that there are (no) prophetic events necessary to happen before He gathers us all back to Him globally.😮😊😊😊
The phrase "Who is able to stand" in Revelation 6:17 is an important marker for what is occurring here. This phrase and slight variations of it are found all throughout Scripture and every one makes a reference to the 6th seal. Malachi 3:2/ Revelation 7:14 "He is like launderers' soap" Nahum 1:6/ Revelation 6:16 "Rocks are thrown down" Joel 2:10-11/ Revelation 6:12-14 Signs in sun, moon, and stars. And this one is the most important Psalm 76:7-9 "You Yourself are to be feared; and who may stand in Your presence once You are angry? You caused judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared and was still, when God arose to judgment, to deliver all the oppressed of the earth." More reference... Psalm 20:6-9/Psalm 24:3-6 Luke 21:36 Daniel 10:6-11 1st Kings 17:1 Jeremiah 15:19 Revelation 7:9 Exodus 15:16 "Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of Your arm they will be as still as a stone." (Compare with Psalm 76:8) Isaiah 52:10-12 "The arm of the Lord will be made bare in the eyes of all the nations. All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Compare with Psalm 20:6-8) Revelation 1:7 "Every eye will see." (Compare with Isaiah 52:10 "in the eyes of all the nations.") Exodus 15:16-17 "Till Your people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over whom You have purchased. You will bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance." (Compare with Hebrews 12:22-23, John 14) "Rear guard" associated with the exodus and also with a departure in Isaiah 52:12 when "the eyes of all the nations" will see, and also Isaiah 26:20 "enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you." Isaiah 52:12 Exodus 14:19-21 Isaiah 26:19-21 Exodus 14:20 "Darkness to the one and a light to the other." 1. Joel 2:2-3 (darkness) "Dark clouds of the morning" 2. 2nd Samuel 23:4 (light) "He shall be like light of the morning, when the sun rises, like tender grass springing up out of the earth." (Isaiah 53:2, Isaiah 26:19, Psalm 110:3) David was a witness/ Isaiah 55:3-4 Revelation 22:16 "the Bright and morning star" 2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 (rest for the saints/vengeance for those who do not know God) "By clear shining after rain.' 2nd Samuel 23:4 Confirms His inheritance in the rain when it was weary. Psalm 68:9 "For He says to the snow, ‘Fall on the earth’; likewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength." Job 37:6 7 thundering voices Job 36:33 - Job 37:7 Psalm 29 Job 14:10-17 Psalm 138:7-8 "Do not forsake the works of Your hands." Isaiah 64:8 "This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.” Ephesians 5:14 Isaiah 52:1-2, Isaiah 60:1-2 If Isaiah 52 is a resurrection passage, then is it not also a rapture passage?... since 1st Thessalonians 4 says the dead are raised first. Isaiah 52:10-15 "Kings of the earth" Isaiah 52:15, Psalm 76:12, Revelation 6:15
I used to be PreTrib, because that's what I was taught. And the men who taught me that, were smart guys that loved our Lord. So I didn't second guess their timing. The first time I heard of PreWrath, I refused to listen, and then one day I decided I was going to prove a PreWrath preacher wrong. Hahaha! But every time I dove into the Bible to disprove it, I came away with evidence for PreWrath. The final nail in my PreTrib coffin was the 5th seal. It is pretty clear who those people are, what they asking and the answer God gives them. I didn't have a good PreTrib explanation for the 5th Seal and neither did anybody else. I then changed my position from PreTrib to PreWrath. I will say that I had to learn the difference between Tribulation and Wrath of God and what the word Parousia meant. Once those 2 things were explained it became easier to understand.
John 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
@@Pre-Tribulation I know what wrath IS. I always have known what it IS. But PreTrib wrongly teaches the Wrath of God starts at the first Seal 1. It doesn't. That is the Tribulation part. The Wrath of God starts at the breaking of seal 7. We are not appointed to anything after seal 7.
@@MementoMori395 The wrath of God is on ALL who reject the Gospel! The wrath is NOW. The seals are JUDGMENT seals. ^^^ John 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ^^^ Revelation 6, each seal that is opened kicks up the level of judgment on a Christ rejecting World.
Out of the four different views, pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath and post trib, the biggest threat to ones steadfast faith is pre-trib and thats why Jesus emphatically warned againts any teaching like that, as also did Paul warn against any idea of cupcake faith, weak faith or anything like you will be raptured before tribulations, afflictions, and persecutions. As a matter of fact its what causes people to fall away once persecution and tribulation comes Matt 13:18-23. Also I believe that this false doctrine is the strong delusion of 1 Thess 5. Also I believe that this pre trib doctrine is what Paul warned Timothy about in 2 Timothy 4"1-5 a doctrine that would itches the ears of those that dont accept sound Biblical doctrine, for example, you will be raptured up before the tribulation starts. Just think about that for a day, doesn't pre- trib do exactly that??? Yes I think it does. Its a form of posterity gospel and leaves the believer to be unprepared spiritually and physically, a VERY DANGEROUS DOCTRINE!!!
The problem I see with your explanation is that tribulations, afflictions, and persecutions are happening today all around the world. Christians are being imprisoned, tortured, and martyred today. The Tribulation refers to the 7 year reign of the Antichrist. We are not guaranteed an easy life prior to The Tribulation, and in fact the easy life some Christians have some places in the world is the exception rather than the rule, and that seems to be coming to an end. These are very dangerous times for Christians and rapidly becoming more dangerous.
Thanks for this interview, I enjoyed the intersection of textual criticism and possible impacts on eschatology. I’m classic dispensational, thus pre-trib. You mentioned that in the pre-wrath position, you see no problem with God working simultaneously with Israel and the Church on earth during Daniel’s 70th Week. For me, that creates a problem; namely, if a Jewish person believes, is he included in the Church, or part of the regenerate nation of Israel?
The now saved jews are part of the church. The " all israel" are the jews saved upon the appearance of jesus, zech, zeph., amos. The rest of jews are killed
@@gerard4870 Spot on! All who've come to faith since the church's inception are part of the body/bride of Christ. Those coming to faith during the tribulation are a different order of people.
Jesus returns once and raises the dead Christian and old testament believers and those who remain until the coming of Jesus Christ will meet Him in the sky and return with Him.
The blessed hope is "the appearing of our Lord Jesus-Christ", regardless of the state of affairs we're in on earth. Right now, believers are being persecuted (i.e. Nigeria) for their faith. Their blessed hope is also the appearing of our Lord Jesus-Christ, since they are already enduring their tribulation.
The way I understand it is that Christian persecution is happening today, but the Tribulation is not yet. The Tribulation will not come until the Antichrist is revealed, so the Tribulation occurs during the seven year reign of the Antichrist.
Acts 14:22 POST TRIB 22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God (cf enter life Mat 18:8, 9; 19:17; 25:46 = kingdom of God).” 1 Thessalonians 3:2-4 POST TRIB 2 and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3 that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that ***we are appointed to this.**** 4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know. 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 POST TRIB 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed. Daniel 7:21-22 POST TRIB 21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
This is still consistent with a pre-wrath view. The church will still be going through the tribulation, but then once the Day of the Lord begins we'll be raptured. "We are not appointed to wrath" 1 Thess 5:9
I agree. The mid-trib position still holds to the promise that we will delivered from God’s wrath the last 3 1/2 years. Only difference between pre-wrath and mid-trib is the mid-trib points to Rev 10:7 as Paul’s ‘last trump.’
The "Tribulation" period is only seals 1-5. When the Sun and Moon go dark (seal 6) , it's the end of the tribulation, and about to go into the Day of the Lord Matthew 24.29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken This is where the PostTribbers get confused, like the PreTribbers they call the whole 7 year period the tribulation, and think tribulation is the same thing as the Wrath of God. It's not. 2 different things. We will be there during the Tribulation (Seals 1-5) and get taken out after Seal 6 is broken. Wrath of God starts with seal 7, the Trumpets 1-7, and Bowls 1-7.
@@Dwayne_GreenThe blood of Jesus makes us Kings and Priests, Revelation 1:5-6. The Elders are redeemed to God by the blood of Jesus from the globe, they see ALL SEALS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and they will rule on the Earth as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:9-10. The Bride is adorned in fine white clean linen which is the righteousness of the saints, Revelation 19:8. The Elders and Bride are following Jesus from Heaven to the Earth on white horses, Revelation 19:14-15. The beheaded saints only reign as Priests, Revelation 20:6. The beheaded saints AREN'T sitting on thrones and power of JUDGMENT ISN'T given to them, Revelation 20:4. We are the Elders and the Bride. Both escape into Heaven as Days of Noah and Days of Lot, which were both used as examples of End Times and both had an ESCAPE method and then judgment.
Bro Dwayne, I watched this video twice and was confused by Dr. Kurschner's position. First, does he believe in a mid-tribulation rapture? I went to a very fundamentalist Bible college and was taught that the Day of the Lord's Wrath (refered to as the GREAT Tribulation) will come AFTER the persecution of the Saints during the first 3 1/2 years of the general Tribulation Period. Secondly, we were NEVER taught that the church would be procluded from persecution, but that an even more severe persecution against BOTH gentile AND Jewish saints who refuse the Mark of the Beast would occur after the rapture of the Church. I think he's misrepresenting the most common Pre-Trib position. To be clear, I don't hold to a position on this subject other than that because no one will know the day or hour of Christ's return we're to be prepared regardless of if the rapture occurs before, during, or after the Tribulation.
Prewrath makes a distinction between the tribulation caused by Satan and the Wrath of God. The seals represent the 'wrath' of the devil with seal 7 ushering in the Wrath of God, the rapture happens somewhere around the end of Rev 6. With the church no raptured, Isreal is sealed and it opens the way for God to begin pouring out His wrath on the earth.
@@Dwayne_Green So does he equate the rapture with the Second Coming which will occur after the Tribulation? Otherwise I think what I was taught agrees with Dr. K overall.
@@Dwayne_Greenanyone who mixes the RAPTURE with the SECOND COMING is brain dead, plain and simple! 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has Jesus HIMSELF decends from Heaven to the clouds with the Trump of God and a shout. No armies following Jesus on white horses, Revelation 19:14-15. Plus Jesus DOESN'T blow the Trump of God in Revelation 19. That WOULD be something major that would be documented, BUT IT ISN'T.
@@allenfrisch Posttrib teaches that the rapture is identified with the second coming. Pretrib makes the opposite error believing they are disconnected from each other. Prewrath teaches the rapture _belongs_ to the second coming. The second coming is an extended event.
Was the church within Daniel's 69 weeks? No. So why would church be on the last week? Obviously this doesn't make sense. In fact, Daniel's prophetic vision, explained and clarified by Gabriel, the angel, who states that this prophecy refers to the people of Daniel, therefore the Jews, and the holy city of the Jews, therefore Jerusalem. Why do some people try to include the church where it doesn't exist?
Amen to that! A/thing other than the pre-trib position, is trying to FORCE FIT us into s/where where we don't belong. The o/positions simply are not supported thru scripture.
So in short these views have the same problem except pre wrath believes Christians will be killed during the great tribulation but so does pre tribulation rapture. Pre tribulation is a partial rapture because people who are left behind are converted and they will also experience a resurrection and rapture.
If it can be established that the *ENTIRE* tribulation will be the wrath of God upon the earth & all that remain, then the "REAL" & "ONLY" true pre-wrath rapture position is the pre-tribulation rapture., & that certainly will be the case & its easily validated.
There is a huge problem with both views. 1st Thess 4 is the second coming and it's perfectly clear. Matthew 24:29/31 is exactly the same thing. For the Lord Jesus is coming in flaming fire taking vengeance and those who don't obey the gospel. God's wrath is coming on the resurrection day and we are are still alive will be changed at the last trumpet and we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the sky. The seven bowls are poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and Christians will be here until Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth.
Sermon on the Rapture I would like to give you my view on where the rapture occurs in the Book of Revelation. We can all agree that 1 Thess 4:16-17 (16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever) clearly speaks of the rapture of the saints. The second passage that deals with the rapture is 1 Cor 15:51-52 ( 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed). The third is Matt 24:30-31 (30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other). I will show you where these passages are fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. We will journey through the Bible first to lay the groundwork for the understanding of the meaning of the key word used in the Book of Revelation. Our journey begins in Genesis 9:13 (13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth). Now, let’s look at Ez 1:26-28 (26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking). Heb 1:3 (3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven), when combined with Rev 4:3 (3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne) it should be clear that Jesus is represented by the rainbow. The Father is described using precious stones as opposed to glowing metal and fire in Ez 1:27. Now let’s look again at Matthew 24:30-31 (30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.) The sign of the Son of Man is the rainbow, it represents Jesus. Now we can study Chapter 10 of the Book of Revelation. The beginning of Chapter 10 (Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.) mirrors the beginning of 1 Thess 4:16 (16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel). The rainbow represents Jesus. It is the sign of the Son of Man spoken of in Matt 24. The angel is the archangel, probably Michael. Jesus issues the loud command with the voice of the archangel. The loud shout like the roar of a lion is the announcement of the coming of the Lion of the tribe of Judah mentioned in Chapter 5 of the Book of Revelation. Now let’s discuss the timing of the rapture. Rev 10 and Rev 11:1-13 both finish just before the end of the second woe, which occurs in Rev 11:14. Immediately after this the seventh angel sounds his trumpet in Rev 11:15. This is the last trumpet and the trumpet call of God. Let me reinforce that statement. Look at Rev 10:6-7 (6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”). Now what is the mystery of God? The mystery of God is Jesus Christ - Col 2:2 (2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,). The mystery of God will be accomplished = Jesus Christ will return. Let me make some further observations that we can discuss in detail at a later time: Rev 10 could also fit between Rev 6:14 and Rev 6:15. Rev 14:6-13 are fulfilled in Rev 11:13-14 Rev 11:13 is the salvation of the Jewish people. It is the opposite of 1 Kings 19:18. Rev 11:14 and all the destruction therein is the result of Rev 17:15-17. Note that in Rev 11:17 The Father is referred to as the One who is and who was, whereas in Rev 1:4 he is referred to as who is, and who was, and who is to come. The four horsemen - the antichrist, satan, the false prophet and death and hades. The first five to be thrown into the Lake of fire.
How many resurrections will there be? Answer: two. Blessed and holy are they who are in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6). (Keep in mind that the rapture and the first resurrection are the same) This glorious event takes place when the two witnesses are raptured/resurrected. (1) they hear a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (Rev 11:12) (2) first the dead in Christ are raised and quickly followed by those who are alive (whose bodies takes on immortality in the moment in the twinkling of an eye.) (3) our enemies will see us ascend into heaven just was people saw Jesus ascend into heaven. (4) people won’t believe that they have been left behind. They will think that the resurrection is magic OR that we are being abducted by aliens OR some other nonsense. (5) Rev 11:13-14 starts the second and third woes. We won't experience it because we have just been raptured! Thank you, Lord Jesus!!
For you to draw that conclusion merely by singling out the word "FIRST" is probably one of *THEE* weakest arguments that can be brought, & hey...YOU didn't even try to make the case, you merely cited text, with your simply conclusive statement. Weak, very weak~ *:)*
I don't know what your point even is but regardless of when you believe the rapture will happen, the two witnesses are still martyred during the great tribulation by the beast. And so are the martyrs in Rev 20:4. Scriptures are clear, the first resurrection, no matter how you slice it will NOT happen anytime before the 7 year tribulation.
@@thetower8553 The "POINT" is quite simple.... Here you are making a TRUTH statement that there are only 2 resurrections, but you've not even made an effort to VALIDATE your claim. Look, if merely citing a verse (or passage) w/o taking time to EXPLAIN the text, hardly qualifies for making the case. You fail to establish *CONTEXT,* & like they say, text w/o context in nothing but pretext for a proof text. You then go on & state... _"The rapture & the 1st resurrection are the same"._ Here again...a claim...nothing more, nothing less. You "seem" to claim the 2 witnesses & THEIR resurrection is to represent the resurrection of church age saints by taking some allegorical/symbolic approach & are US? There's a *#* of reasons that thought falls flat, as with your other truth claims. Again, the "POINT" being, is if you're relying on what you've said as s/thing substantive to back up your claims, you fall _W A Y_ short. So when YOU *"sliced"* things, you cut off any explanation/validation/proof you were hoping to supply. I find a host of issues with taking that position, & certainly don't see a/thing from what you've said to be convincing in any way. The scenario you're trying to paint places the CHURCH here on earth during the tribulation, but where's the *WHY* behind that? What's the *REASON* we'd need to be here? There are several passages giving us the *PURPOSE* for the tribulation, & not a single one of them includes the church. Those same passages give us the *PEOPLE* the tribulation is aimed at, & not a single one of them includes the church, so you're really placing the cart before the horse in all you've said. *MARANATHA!*
1 Thessalonians 4, speaking of the rapture, says "comfort with these words." The same apostle called the rapture the "blessed hope" in Titus. Despite this, many say that the church will be marterized by the antichrist, which a rapture later does not make sense. That the antichrist is going to kill the Christians there is NO consolation with it nor is it a blessed hope. The context comes first before any Greek word or translation.
Look at what the first 5 seals stand for. 1-5, Rise of the AC, War, Famine, Death, Martyrdom. You gonna tell me, God doesn't allow Christians to go through Wars? Or Famines? What about the Martyrs? We Christians go through all those things. If you replace the AC with any other evil ruler, you have seal 1 too. Sorry, but being a Christian doesn't save you from wars or persecution. Blessed hope, is something for us to look forward to, to being with Jesus. It does not mean the blessed hope is we get live a life without war.
Great reply….I’m 79 and my opinion is that Christians who hold to the Pre-Trib view (like I did for over 25 yrs) just may be some of those who will “fall away” during Daniel’s 70th Week (wrongly called The Tribulation by Pre-Trib teachers because it fits their narrative) as Jesus tells us in Matt 24 in the Olivet Discourse. He wanted us to understand….that’s WHY He told us…so, that we would be prepared, and how to live during that period IF we are the generation who sees these things happening. Imminence of a rapture is simply no where in the Bible!…if it was…Jesus would have not have wasted a whole chapter telling about the end days that the elect has to face! Just think about it! When the Disciples asked, “When will this happen & what will be the sign of your coming?”…all Jesus would have had to say is, “Guys! Cool it! Don’t worry about it for I’m coming to get you BEFORE all this takes place…and nobody else will even SEE it! Y’all will be outta’ here, boys! So relax…I’ve got other things on my mind at the moment…I’m about to be crucified, and Peter’s fixing to cut off this guy’s ear, for crying out loud!” Folks, if you’re reading this, just let the Bible speak for itself and the Holy Spirit will give you wisdom…IF you just ask! And to Juanliz5076: Tell some of the Jews who suffered at the hands of Hitler, there is no “blessed hope” just because they had to go through such torture! Messianic Jews look toward Jesus’s 2nd coming (whenever that occurs) the same as we should. My wife does Christmas shopping in July! Never has it crossed our kid’s minds that Santa Claus just might be coming to leave them presents in August or anytime BEFORE December 25th!! Kids never stop looking for that special date! Just think about it and you’ll get the ananlogy…as poor as it is! ;)
Post Trib rapture is based on scripture. PreTrib rapture is based on conjecture, speculation and misinterpretation of Scripture. Rapture is posttrib and It’s not really debatable. Here are some irrefutable truths. 1. The rapture is AFTER the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4. Dead in Christ shall rise first. 2. Jesus said the resurrection is on ‘THE LAST DAY’ over and over and over in John 6. That is the last day of the age of grace. The last day of life without Christ. The last day of the church age. The last day of the New Covenant. The next day starts the millennial kingdom. If the resurrection is ON THE LAST DAY obviously then this means that the rapture is on the last day since the RAPTURE IS AFTER THE RESURRECTION. The rapture is on the last day. 3. The resurrection / rapture is in Rev 20:4. Here we find ‘the last day’. John says he saw the dead come to life. This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture is right after it. The rapture is post trib. It is AFTER Rev 5-19. The church goes THROUGH the tribulation. We will not experience Gods wrath just like Israel did not experience Gods wrath when God punished Egypt. And Noah didn’t experience Gods wrath when He flooded the whole earth, but Noah was preserved THROUGH the flood. Not raptured out of it. Israel was not raptured out of Egypt. God will test the church. He will have a pure spotless bride for His Son. Any other position other than a posttrib rapture twists and distorts Gods Word. And then there’s Jesus’ message in Matthew 24:29-31 “But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days……..And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ………….And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. ------ Jesus Himself says that He is coming back for His church and will gather it immediately AFTER the tribulation. How can it get ANY CLEARER???? Stop with this false doctrine of a PreTrib rapture. The doctrine of escapism has to be exposed and refuted by the word of God. Too many people planning their escape instead of filling their lamp with oil. Having said this, in Rev 3:10 God promises to keep those who have proven their faithfulness from the hour of testing. Knowing that be so faithful that God keeps you from the tribulation. Remember this promise of Christ is to only ONE of the seven churches in Revelation. One. There are letters to SIX other churches. And remember this verse. Revelation 13:7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. -- God will give Antichrist power to persecute and kill His saints. Sounds crazy but that’s His plan. Don’t let people tickle your ears with anything that’s not the truth. 2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. Read your Bible. Test your teachers. Reject false teachers. Endure to the end and you will be saved. That’s a promise from God.
"They think they're missed the Day of the Lord"? Who wouldn't want to miss the Day of the Lord, given its OT meaning-? I don't think they would be upset by that. What they fear is that they have missed the Rapture, which Paul told them in II Thess 2 would happen fairly soon AFTER the Abomination of Desolation. The Day of the Lord (wrath), which comes after the Rapture, is not the Day of Christ (something positive--the Rapture). "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (RAPTURE), we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ (RAPTURE) had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (RAPTURE) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,..." We will face the Antichrist, but the wrath comes earlier than indicated here, I believe scripture says.
The Thessalonians were "troubled" & "shaken" due to a bogus letter having been circulated among them, TELLING them that the "DAY OF CHRIST" in *vs 2* (the tribulation), had commenced & the rapture had not even taken place. This is certainly not what Paul had taught them in his 1st letter to them. Paul goes on to comfort & assure them, that *=====>* "THAT DAY" *
@@Kman. You're saying that because Paul began with a topic sentence discussing the Rapture (resurrection/rapture), rules of grammar prohibit him from referring to it again in v 2 using the phrase "Day of Christos"? As a writer by profession, I know of no such rules. And "that Day" in v 3 does not appear in the Greek text but was added by the translators (appears in italic). In the NT, the phrase "Day of the Lord," which refers to the OT concept of the day of God's wrath poured out on the wicked occurs in only I Thess 5, Acts 2:20, and 2 Peter 3:10. Isa 61 v 2 speaks of the concept as the day of the vengeance of our God. USE OF CHRISTOS VS. KYRIOS IN PAUL'S 2 LETTERS THAT FOCUS ON THE EVENTS SURROUNDING JESUS' RETURN The KJV and NKJV base their translations on the Greek Textus Receptus, which uses Christos in II Thess 2 v 2 whereas translations based on Nestle-Aland incorrectly use Kyrios (Lord) in v2. Why did Paul distinguish between the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord in I Thess 5 and II Thess 2 by using two different terms? Because they are two separate events. 2 Thess 2:2 "...as though the Day of Christ (Christos) had come." That is the day of resurrection/rapture for believers. By contrast, Paul specifically uses the term Kyrios or Lord when referring to the Day of the Lord (day of wrath) in I Thess 5. The whole chapter focuses on the Great Day of the Lord. I Thess 5 v 2 "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (Kyrios) so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them." In the above verse Paul is obviously not referring to the resurrection/rapture. Verses that use "the Day of the Lord Jesus" as in I Cor 5:5 are also referring to the resurrection/rapture. They do not refer to the OT concept of the Day of the Lord--the use of Lord is determined by the context.
@@ReLair88 The "RULE" being o/looked or disregarded, would be the "Last Antecedent Rule", where "that day" in *vs 3* would be tied to the "day of Christ" in *vs 2,* NOT the rapture that is noted in *vs 1.* Your disagreement, is in thinking that the "day of Christ" in *vs 2* speaks of the rapture, when I submit to you that it speaks of the tribulation period. So, how do we come to u/stand that the "day of Christ" is the tribulation & NOT the rapture? Well *vss 2,3* tell us that the believers were "shaken in mind" & "troubled", and this is a far cry from what meeting Christ - our blessed hope - will bring. They would have been filled w/joy unspeakable, full of glory! *2ndly...* They feared that the tribulation was "AT HAND", i.e. present, observable, it had commenced, & was active...the perfect tense, having effects in he now. It would be an event that began in the past, but _continues_ in the present. On the o/hand, the rapture will be an event that will take place, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" *(I Cor **15:52**),* which is not s/thing that will even be measurable as we count time. Paul set out to CORRECT & to COMFORT the Thessalonians *(vss 5,17),* reminding them that the tribulation cannot/will not begin _U N T I L_ @ least 2 conditions are met, both of which are noted in *vs 3...* *1)* The falling away *2)* The man of sin is revealed All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*
Paul wrote 1 Thes because Math 27:52-53 happened 1 st century AD prior to Nero 1 Thes 4:14 those "asleep" come with HIM confirms this. Is on Hebrew day called First Fruits is Rev 14:4 all are youtful virgins again 1 Cor 15:53. ( esplains the "caughting up" ) Elijiaha caught up to 3rd heaven bears destroy youth for mocking the POWER of GOD telling Eljiah had be "caught up" There are 3 events on each side of the cross Like the Menirah. JESUS walked with Adam and Eve. Came as the Lamb and HE stated "coming again" 1 Four Zero Three Eight Three Zero Fortyone Twentyfour. Zeck 14 NO reserection v5 saints ( aseep , dead alive Rev 11 and those " beheaded" ) from 3rd heaven Marriage Supper to reign as Ambasdors with HIM for 1000 yrs. Not just.2nd coming.
The Lord is amazing. I did not get past the 4 minute mark before I shared my first post. Then I shared my thoughts on it, from a different perspective. The amazing part is that my senior pastor shared his thoughts on 2 Thess at our men's breakfast this morning. Too Cool.😎
haha awesome!
Many top Scholars like the well known Reformed Theologian R C Sproul, Dr Ken Gentry, Bruce Gore, John Alley, Hank Hanegraaff (who is 'The Bible Answer Man, on U tube ) claim that 2 Thess 2, the entire chpt, found it's total fulfillment in the first Century. That the falling away must come first which is the Apostasy of the first Century Jews as they abandon the Truth and go back to their Judaism.
' The coming of our Lord Jesus ' is not talking about the second coming in this particular instance but is referring to the coming Judgement of Christ on Israel for his Crucifixion, the killing of the Prophets, the stoning of Stephen.
This Judgement started in AD 66 and ended in AD 73. It's great culmination was the destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple AD 70.
Why on planet Earth would Paul be writing 2000 years ago to the Thessalonians to tell them about things thousands and thousands of years yet future to them that has absolutely No Relevance to them and is of Absolutely of No interest to them who were already under persecution and living in hardship. V5 Remember when I was with you and spoke to you face to face about these things. Paul's was speaking to them about things that are going to affect them big time in their very near future. Of the same view as this is the well known Reformed Theologian R C Sproul, Dr Ken Gentry, Bruce Gore, Eugene Peterson, Gary DeMar Doug Wilson, John Alley and Hank Hanegraaff ( who is the Bible Answer Man on U tube)
All of the above believe that Nero is the " Lawless One, the Man of Sin, " in this chapter, except for Hank Hanegraaff who claims it's Caligula.
DR Ken Gentry has an excellent Vid on U tube simply titled ' 2 Thess 2 ' where he does an indepth study of this chpt and explains in detail why it has to find it's total fulfillment in the first Century.
Paul Washer said the only thing left behind in the Left Behind series was the Bible.
Ha! He's not entirely wrong.
Welcome back Dr. Kurscher...i haven't seen you online for a while.
Thanks eswn
My father is a pastor and he believes in a pre-trib rapture, I have sorta, for the most part of my life, although lately I don't havr that topic so clear. 2nd and longer part on this topic is a must haha!!! Praying it happens!!
As a graduate of a dispensational Bible College, I can affirm that, at least in the last half of the previous century, a distinction between Israel and the Church in God's economy was foundational to dispensationalism.
Dispensationalism is False. It was something John Nelson Darby invented about 180 years ago and it became popular. Darby in his later life left the Plymouth Brethren and started " The Exclusive Brethren " a Cult ? 😕😏🥴😞
MAKING A DISTINCTION BETWEEN JEWS AND THE REST OF MANKIND IS A SIN AGAINST GOD'S WORD.
Rom. 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him
1 Cor. 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit
Gal. 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
@@LastDaySaintJames Correct !! God Does Not have 2 distinct peoples.
He only has one, and that is the people of God.
The Unscholarly Darby invented the Two distinct peoples so if he invented it we know that it must be wrong.
And you have proved it by quoting all of the telling Scriptures.
Graduating from a Dispensationalists College is not something our friend should be Boasting about, to be honest.
@@alongcamejones309
i think the goat mentality dates farther back than Darby..
@@LastDaySaintJames Yeah you could be right, someone earlier on might have given Darby his light bulb moments 😏😕🙂
All Bibles up until the 1611 KJV use "departing" except the Bishops Bible which was not well Received at the time. The day of the Lord is not the same as 'our gathering together unto him'. That is why people confuse 2Thess 2:3.
I think another assumption is that seal 1 starts at the beginning of the last 7 years, which the scripture doesn't say
I noticed you didn't mirror your information to pre-tribulation documentation. why?
I wish you had discussed the word harpazo in relation to the rapture.
What about Matthew 13:24-30? The tares go before the wheat. So if one is taken and one left it could be said that the ones taken are the unsaved.
That's right. The ones taken are the ones taken in judgement.
The WHEAT are children of the kingdom, Matthew 13:8. We aren't children of the kingdom during the Church Age. We are Children of God by faith in Christ, Galatians 3:26
@@Pre-TribulationTHERE IS NO SCRIPTURE DEFINING THE CHURCH AGE.
THEREFORE YOU ARE SAYING .....
N O T H I N G
@@Pre-Tribulation children of the kingdom and children of God are the same
The tares are burned at Great White Throne in Revelation 20, while the wheat goes into the barn, Revelation 21.
Last days = past days. 14:03 says it all. "Things that are 'about' to happen."
616 instead of 666?? NEVER heard of that! Where did you get that from? I'm not getting ANY marks so I'm good..just never heard of that and would like to know where it come from?
Bravo Dwayne Green, your take on this that you said prior to the 17 minute mark states you totally get the idea of eminance as being our own last day on earth like Stephen's was in Acts 7, read it for yourselves brothers and sisters in the faith of Jesus Christ. As far as Christ return to gather all us believers world wide, there are a lot of prophetic events to occur before He returns and the great false teaching of pre trib theology is that there are (no) prophetic events necessary to happen before He gathers us all back to Him globally.😮😊😊😊
The phrase "Who is able to stand" in Revelation 6:17 is an important marker for what is occurring here. This phrase and slight variations of it are found all throughout Scripture and every one makes a reference to the 6th seal.
Malachi 3:2/ Revelation 7:14
"He is like launderers' soap"
Nahum 1:6/ Revelation 6:16
"Rocks are thrown down"
Joel 2:10-11/ Revelation 6:12-14
Signs in sun, moon, and stars.
And this one is the most important
Psalm 76:7-9
"You Yourself are to be feared; and who may stand in Your presence once You are angry? You caused judgment to be heard from heaven; the earth feared and was still, when God arose to judgment, to deliver all the oppressed of the earth."
More reference...
Psalm 20:6-9/Psalm 24:3-6
Luke 21:36
Daniel 10:6-11
1st Kings 17:1
Jeremiah 15:19
Revelation 7:9
Exodus 15:16
"Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of Your arm they will be as still as a stone." (Compare with Psalm 76:8)
Isaiah 52:10-12
"The arm of the Lord will be made bare in the eyes of all the nations. All the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." (Compare with Psalm 20:6-8)
Revelation 1:7
"Every eye will see."
(Compare with Isaiah 52:10 "in the eyes of all the nations.")
Exodus 15:16-17
"Till Your people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over whom You have purchased. You will bring them in and plant them in the mountain of Your inheritance." (Compare with Hebrews 12:22-23, John 14)
"Rear guard" associated with the exodus and also with a departure in Isaiah 52:12 when "the eyes of all the nations" will see, and also Isaiah 26:20 "enter your chambers and shut your doors behind you."
Isaiah 52:12
Exodus 14:19-21
Isaiah 26:19-21
Exodus 14:20
"Darkness to the one and a light to the other."
1. Joel 2:2-3 (darkness)
"Dark clouds of the morning"
2. 2nd Samuel 23:4 (light)
"He shall be like light of the morning, when the sun rises, like tender grass springing up out of the earth." (Isaiah 53:2, Isaiah 26:19, Psalm 110:3)
David was a witness/ Isaiah 55:3-4
Revelation 22:16 "the Bright and morning star"
2nd Thessalonians 1:6-10 (rest for the saints/vengeance for those who do not know God)
"By clear shining after rain.'
2nd Samuel 23:4
Confirms His inheritance in the rain when it was weary.
Psalm 68:9
"For He says to the snow, ‘Fall on the earth’; likewise to the gentle rain and the heavy rain of His strength."
Job 37:6
7 thundering voices
Job 36:33 - Job 37:7
Psalm 29
Job 14:10-17
Psalm 138:7-8
"Do not forsake the works of Your hands."
Isaiah 64:8
"This is why it is said: “Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”
Ephesians 5:14
Isaiah 52:1-2, Isaiah 60:1-2
If Isaiah 52 is a resurrection passage, then is it not also a rapture passage?... since 1st Thessalonians 4 says the dead are raised first.
Isaiah 52:10-15
"Kings of the earth"
Isaiah 52:15, Psalm 76:12, Revelation 6:15
I used to be PreTrib, because that's what I was taught. And the men who taught me that, were smart guys that loved our Lord. So I didn't second guess their timing. The first time I heard of PreWrath, I refused to listen, and then one day I decided I was going to prove a PreWrath preacher wrong. Hahaha! But every time I dove into the Bible to disprove it, I came away with evidence for PreWrath. The final nail in my PreTrib coffin was the 5th seal. It is pretty clear who those people are, what they asking and the answer God gives them. I didn't have a good PreTrib explanation for the 5th Seal and neither did anybody else. I then changed my position from PreTrib to PreWrath.
I will say that I had to learn the difference between Tribulation and Wrath of God and what the word Parousia meant. Once those 2 things were explained it became easier to understand.
Wrath is on ALL who reject the Gospel.
John 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Great to hear this.
@@Pre-Tribulation I know what wrath IS. I always have known what it IS. But PreTrib wrongly teaches the Wrath of God starts at the first Seal 1. It doesn't. That is the Tribulation part. The Wrath of God starts at the breaking of seal 7. We are not appointed to anything after seal 7.
@@MementoMori395 The wrath of God is on ALL who reject the Gospel! The wrath is NOW. The seals are JUDGMENT seals.
^^^
John 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
^^^
Revelation 6, each seal that is opened kicks up the level of judgment on a Christ rejecting World.
Out of the four different views, pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath and post trib, the biggest threat to ones steadfast faith is pre-trib and thats why Jesus emphatically warned againts any teaching like that, as also did Paul warn against any idea of cupcake faith, weak faith or anything like you will be raptured before tribulations, afflictions, and persecutions. As a matter of fact its what causes people to fall away once persecution and tribulation comes Matt 13:18-23. Also I believe that this false doctrine is the strong delusion of 1 Thess 5. Also I believe that this pre trib doctrine is what Paul warned Timothy about in 2 Timothy 4"1-5 a doctrine that would itches the ears of those that dont accept sound Biblical doctrine, for example, you will be raptured up before the tribulation starts. Just think about that for a day, doesn't pre- trib do exactly that??? Yes I think it does. Its a form of posterity gospel and leaves the believer to be unprepared spiritually and physically, a VERY DANGEROUS DOCTRINE!!!
The problem I see with your explanation is that tribulations, afflictions, and persecutions are happening today all around the world. Christians are being imprisoned, tortured, and martyred today. The Tribulation refers to the 7 year reign of the Antichrist. We are not guaranteed an easy life prior to The Tribulation, and in fact the easy life some Christians have some places in the world is the exception rather than the rule, and that seems to be coming to an end. These are very dangerous times for Christians and rapidly becoming more dangerous.
Thanks for this interview, I enjoyed the intersection of textual criticism and possible impacts on eschatology. I’m classic dispensational, thus pre-trib. You mentioned that in the pre-wrath position, you see no problem with God working simultaneously with Israel and the Church on earth during Daniel’s 70th Week. For me, that creates a problem; namely, if a Jewish person believes, is he included in the Church, or part of the regenerate nation of Israel?
That is a very good question... I don't have the answer at the moment, but something I'll have to put some time into thinking about.
He is part of both, just as Jesus's disciples belonged to the church and Israel.
@@dr.alankurschner But the saved nation of Israel and the Church have different promises and different destinies, so that doesn’t make sense.
The now saved jews are part of the church. The " all israel" are the jews saved upon the appearance of jesus, zech, zeph., amos. The rest of jews are killed
@@gerard4870 Spot on! All who've come to faith since the church's inception are part of the body/bride of Christ. Those coming to faith during the tribulation are a different order of people.
Jesus returns once and raises the dead Christian and old testament believers and those who remain until the coming of Jesus Christ will meet Him in the sky and return with Him.
What is our blessed hope, to go through tribulation?
The blessed hope is Jesus Christ.
Right...there's no logical or sane argument that can rebut that, AMEN?!
*_MARANATHA!_*
The blessed hope is "the appearing of our Lord Jesus-Christ", regardless of the state of affairs we're in on earth.
Right now, believers are being persecuted (i.e. Nigeria) for their faith. Their blessed hope is also the appearing of our Lord Jesus-Christ, since they are already enduring their tribulation.
So tribulation is Christian persecution?
The way I understand it is that Christian persecution is happening today, but the Tribulation is not yet. The Tribulation will not come until the Antichrist is revealed, so the Tribulation occurs during the seven year reign of the Antichrist.
Acts 14:22 POST TRIB
22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God (cf enter life Mat 18:8, 9; 19:17; 25:46 = kingdom of God).”
1 Thessalonians 3:2-4 POST TRIB
2 and sent Timothy, our brother and minister of God, and our fellow laborer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you and encourage you concerning your faith, 3 that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that
***we are appointed to this.****
4 For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 POST TRIB
4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
Daniel 7:21-22 POST TRIB
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
This is still consistent with a pre-wrath view. The church will still be going through the tribulation, but then once the Day of the Lord begins we'll be raptured. "We are not appointed to wrath" 1 Thess 5:9
I agree. The mid-trib position still holds to the promise that we will delivered from God’s wrath the last 3 1/2 years. Only difference between pre-wrath and mid-trib is the mid-trib points to Rev 10:7 as Paul’s ‘last trump.’
The "Tribulation" period is only seals 1-5. When the Sun and Moon go dark (seal 6) , it's the end of the tribulation, and about to go into the Day of the Lord
Matthew 24.29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken
This is where the PostTribbers get confused, like the PreTribbers they call the whole 7 year period the tribulation, and think tribulation is the same thing as the Wrath of God. It's not. 2 different things. We will be there during the Tribulation (Seals 1-5) and get taken out after Seal 6 is broken. Wrath of God starts with seal 7, the Trumpets 1-7, and Bowls 1-7.
@@Dwayne_GreenThe blood of Jesus makes us Kings and Priests, Revelation 1:5-6. The Elders are redeemed to God by the blood of Jesus from the globe, they see ALL SEALS OPENED IN HEAVEN, and they will rule on the Earth as Kings and Priests, Revelation 5:9-10.
The Bride is adorned in fine white clean linen which is the righteousness of the saints, Revelation 19:8. The Elders and Bride are following Jesus from Heaven to the Earth on white horses, Revelation 19:14-15. The beheaded saints only reign as Priests, Revelation 20:6. The beheaded saints AREN'T sitting on thrones and power of JUDGMENT ISN'T given to them, Revelation 20:4. We are the Elders and the Bride. Both escape into Heaven as Days of Noah and Days of Lot, which were both used as examples of End Times and both had an ESCAPE method and then judgment.
@@Dwayne_Green
WHAT WRATH ARE WE NOT APPOINTED TO?
THUMOS WRATH
OR
ORGE WRATH.
DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE DIFFERENCE AND WHEN EACH COMES?
IT APPEARS NOT.
Bro Dwayne, I watched this video twice and was confused by Dr. Kurschner's position. First, does he believe in a mid-tribulation rapture? I went to a very fundamentalist Bible college and was taught that the Day of the Lord's Wrath (refered to as the GREAT Tribulation) will come AFTER the persecution of the Saints during the first 3 1/2 years of the general Tribulation Period. Secondly, we were NEVER taught that the church would be procluded from persecution, but that an even more severe persecution against BOTH gentile AND Jewish saints who refuse the Mark of the Beast would occur after the rapture of the Church. I think he's misrepresenting the most common Pre-Trib position.
To be clear, I don't hold to a position on this subject other than that because no one will know the day or hour of Christ's return we're to be prepared regardless of if the rapture occurs before, during, or after the Tribulation.
Prewrath makes a distinction between the tribulation caused by Satan and the Wrath of God. The seals represent the 'wrath' of the devil with seal 7 ushering in the Wrath of God, the rapture happens somewhere around the end of Rev 6. With the church no raptured, Isreal is sealed and it opens the way for God to begin pouring out His wrath on the earth.
@@Dwayne_Green So does he equate the rapture with the Second Coming which will occur after the Tribulation? Otherwise I think what I was taught agrees with Dr. K overall.
@@allenfrisch Yes, he sees the Rapture as part of the second coming. He talks about that at length in his book.
@@Dwayne_Greenanyone who mixes the RAPTURE with the SECOND COMING is brain dead, plain and simple! 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has Jesus HIMSELF decends from Heaven to the clouds with the Trump of God and a shout. No armies following Jesus on white horses, Revelation 19:14-15. Plus Jesus DOESN'T blow the Trump of God in Revelation 19. That WOULD be something major that would be documented, BUT IT ISN'T.
@@allenfrisch Posttrib teaches that the rapture is identified with the second coming. Pretrib makes the opposite error believing they are disconnected from each other. Prewrath teaches the rapture _belongs_ to the second coming. The second coming is an extended event.
Was the church within Daniel's 69 weeks? No. So why would church be on the last week? Obviously this doesn't make sense. In fact, Daniel's prophetic vision, explained and clarified by Gabriel, the angel, who states that this prophecy refers to the people of Daniel, therefore the Jews, and the holy city of the Jews, therefore Jerusalem. Why do some people try to include the church where it doesn't exist?
Amen to that! A/thing other than the pre-trib position, is trying to FORCE FIT us into s/where where we don't belong. The o/positions simply are not supported thru scripture.
"if you are not scholarly minded and all that kinda stuff" lol I was hoping to hear some real arguments
So in short these views have the same problem except pre wrath believes Christians will be killed during the great tribulation but so does pre tribulation rapture. Pre tribulation is a partial rapture because people who are left behind are converted and they will also experience a resurrection and rapture.
If it can be established that the *ENTIRE* tribulation will be the wrath of God upon the earth & all that remain, then the "REAL" & "ONLY" true pre-wrath rapture position is the pre-tribulation rapture., & that certainly will be the case & its easily validated.
??
There is a huge problem with both views. 1st Thess 4 is the second coming and it's perfectly clear. Matthew 24:29/31 is exactly the same thing. For the Lord Jesus is coming in flaming fire taking vengeance and those who don't obey the gospel. God's wrath is coming on the resurrection day and we are are still alive will be changed at the last trumpet and we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the sky. The seven bowls are poured out on those who have the mark of the beast and Christians will be here until Jesus returns to establish His kingdom on earth.
Sorry, not Maccabees, 2 Chronicles 29:19. Cast Away.
There is one in 2 Maccabees 5, but I'm not sure what the greek word behind it is.
@@Dwayne_Green 2 Mac 2:15 to revolt
Sermon on the Rapture
I would like to give you my view on where the rapture occurs in the Book of Revelation. We can all agree that 1 Thess 4:16-17 (16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever) clearly speaks of the rapture of the saints. The second passage that deals with the rapture is 1 Cor 15:51-52 ( 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed). The third is Matt 24:30-31 (30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other).
I will show you where these passages are fulfilled in the Book of Revelation. We will journey through the Bible first to lay the groundwork for the understanding of the meaning of the key word used in the Book of Revelation. Our journey begins in Genesis 9:13 (13 I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth). Now, let’s look at Ez 1:26-28 (26 Above the vault over their heads was what looked like a throne of lapis lazuli, and high above on the throne was a figure like that of a man. 27 I saw that from what appeared to be his waist up he looked like glowing metal, as if full of fire, and that from there down he looked like fire; and brilliant light surrounded him. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him.This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. When I saw it, I fell facedown, and I heard the voice of one speaking).
Heb 1:3 (3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven), when combined with Rev 4:3 (3 And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby. A rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne) it should be clear that Jesus is represented by the rainbow. The Father is described using precious stones as opposed to glowing metal and fire in Ez 1:27. Now let’s look again at Matthew 24:30-31 (30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.) The sign of the Son of Man is the rainbow, it represents Jesus.
Now we can study Chapter 10 of the Book of Revelation. The beginning of Chapter 10 (Then I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars. 2 He was holding a little scroll, which lay open in his hand. He planted his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, 3 and he gave a loud shout like the roar of a lion. When he shouted, the voices of the seven thunders spoke.) mirrors the beginning of 1 Thess 4:16 (16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel). The rainbow represents Jesus. It is the sign of the Son of Man spoken of in Matt 24. The angel is the archangel, probably Michael. Jesus issues the loud command with the voice of the archangel. The loud shout like the roar of a lion is the announcement of the coming of the Lion of the tribe of Judah mentioned in Chapter 5 of the Book of Revelation.
Now let’s discuss the timing of the rapture. Rev 10 and Rev 11:1-13 both finish just before the end of the second woe, which occurs in Rev 11:14. Immediately after this the seventh angel sounds his trumpet in Rev 11:15. This is the last trumpet and the trumpet call of God. Let me reinforce that statement. Look at Rev 10:6-7 (6 And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, “There will be no more delay! 7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”). Now what is the mystery of God? The mystery of God is Jesus Christ - Col 2:2 (2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ,). The mystery of God will be accomplished = Jesus Christ will return.
Let me make some further observations that we can discuss in detail at a later time:
Rev 10 could also fit between Rev 6:14 and Rev 6:15.
Rev 14:6-13 are fulfilled in Rev 11:13-14
Rev 11:13 is the salvation of the Jewish people. It is the opposite of 1 Kings 19:18.
Rev 11:14 and all the destruction therein is the result of Rev 17:15-17.
Note that in Rev 11:17 The Father is referred to as the One who is and who was, whereas in Rev 1:4 he is referred to as who is, and who was, and who is to come.
The four horsemen - the antichrist, satan, the false prophet and death and hades. The first five to be thrown into the Lake of fire.
How many resurrections will there be? Answer: two.
Blessed and holy are they who are in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6).
(Keep in mind that the rapture and the first resurrection are the same)
This glorious event takes place when the two witnesses are raptured/resurrected.
(1) they hear a great voice from heaven saying unto them, "Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. (Rev 11:12)
(2) first the dead in Christ are raised and quickly followed by those who are alive (whose bodies takes on immortality in the moment in the twinkling of an eye.)
(3) our enemies will see us ascend into heaven just was people saw Jesus ascend into heaven.
(4) people won’t believe that they have been left behind. They will think that the resurrection is magic OR that we are being abducted by aliens OR some other nonsense.
(5) Rev 11:13-14 starts the second and third woes. We won't experience it because we have just been raptured! Thank you, Lord Jesus!!
For you to draw that conclusion merely by singling out the word "FIRST" is probably one of *THEE* weakest arguments that can be brought, & hey...YOU didn't even try to make the case, you merely cited text, with your simply conclusive statement. Weak, very weak~ *:)*
I don't know what your point even is but regardless of when you believe the rapture will happen, the two witnesses are still martyred during the great tribulation by the beast. And so are the martyrs in Rev 20:4. Scriptures are clear, the first resurrection, no matter how you slice it will NOT happen anytime before the 7 year tribulation.
@@thetower8553 The "POINT" is quite simple....
Here you are making a TRUTH statement that there are only 2 resurrections, but you've not even made an effort to VALIDATE your claim. Look, if merely citing a verse (or passage) w/o taking time to EXPLAIN the text, hardly qualifies for making the case. You fail to establish *CONTEXT,* & like they say, text w/o context in nothing but pretext for a proof text. You then go on & state...
_"The rapture & the 1st resurrection are the same"._ Here again...a claim...nothing more, nothing less. You "seem" to claim the 2 witnesses & THEIR resurrection is to represent the resurrection of church age saints by taking some allegorical/symbolic approach & are US?
There's a *#* of reasons that thought falls flat, as with your other truth claims. Again, the "POINT" being, is if you're relying on what you've said as s/thing substantive to back up your claims, you fall _W A Y_ short. So when YOU *"sliced"* things, you cut off any explanation/validation/proof you were hoping to supply.
I find a host of issues with taking that position, & certainly don't see a/thing from what you've said to be convincing in any way. The scenario you're trying to paint places the CHURCH here on earth during the tribulation, but where's the *WHY* behind that? What's the *REASON* we'd need to be here?
There are several passages giving us the *PURPOSE* for the tribulation, & not a single one of them includes the church. Those same passages give us the *PEOPLE* the tribulation is aimed at, & not a single one of them includes the church, so you're really placing the cart before the horse in all you've said.
*MARANATHA!*
I should have added, in stating the 2 witnesses are martyred by the beast....so?
I agree. What point are you trying to establish?
@@Kman.There is a misunderstanding here, I was replying to @msworldtraveller3264
1 Thessalonians 4, speaking of the rapture, says "comfort with these words." The same apostle called the rapture the "blessed hope" in Titus. Despite this, many say that the church will be marterized by the antichrist, which a rapture later does not make sense. That the antichrist is going to kill the Christians there is NO consolation with it nor is it a blessed hope. The context comes first before any Greek word or translation.
Look at what the first 5 seals stand for. 1-5, Rise of the AC, War, Famine, Death, Martyrdom. You gonna tell me, God doesn't allow Christians to go through Wars? Or Famines? What about the Martyrs? We Christians go through all those things. If you replace the AC with any other evil ruler, you have seal 1 too. Sorry, but being a Christian doesn't save you from wars or persecution. Blessed hope, is something for us to look forward to, to being with Jesus. It does not mean the blessed hope is we get live a life without war.
Great reply….I’m 79 and my opinion is that Christians who hold to the Pre-Trib view (like I did for over 25 yrs) just may be some of those who will “fall away” during Daniel’s 70th Week (wrongly called The Tribulation by Pre-Trib teachers because it fits their narrative) as Jesus tells us in Matt 24 in the Olivet Discourse. He wanted us to understand….that’s WHY He told us…so, that we would be prepared, and how to live during that period IF we are the generation who sees these things happening. Imminence of a rapture is simply no where in the Bible!…if it was…Jesus would have not have wasted a whole chapter telling about the end days that the elect has to face! Just think about it!
When the Disciples asked, “When will this happen & what will be the sign of your coming?”…all Jesus would have had to say is, “Guys! Cool it! Don’t worry about it for I’m coming to get you BEFORE all this takes place…and nobody else will even SEE it! Y’all will be outta’ here, boys! So relax…I’ve got other things on my mind at the moment…I’m about to be crucified, and Peter’s fixing to cut off this guy’s ear, for crying out loud!”
Folks, if you’re reading this, just let the Bible speak for itself and the Holy Spirit will give you wisdom…IF you just ask! And to Juanliz5076: Tell some of the Jews who suffered at the hands of Hitler, there is no “blessed hope” just because they had to go through such torture! Messianic Jews look toward Jesus’s 2nd coming (whenever that occurs) the same as we should. My wife does Christmas shopping in July! Never has it crossed our kid’s minds that Santa Claus just might be coming to leave them presents in August or anytime BEFORE December 25th!! Kids never stop looking for that special date! Just think about it and you’ll get the ananlogy…as poor as it is! ;)
@@jerryglazener8129 Hello friend, forgive my ignorance. Maybe I should pray for myself so that God gives me the understanding that you have.
Post Trib rapture is based on scripture. PreTrib rapture is based on conjecture, speculation and misinterpretation of Scripture.
Rapture is posttrib and It’s not really debatable. Here are some irrefutable truths.
1. The rapture is AFTER the resurrection.
1 Thessalonians 4. Dead in Christ shall rise first.
2. Jesus said the resurrection is on ‘THE LAST DAY’ over and over and over in John 6. That is the last day of the age of grace. The last day of life without Christ. The last day of the church age. The last day of the New Covenant. The next day starts the millennial kingdom. If the resurrection is ON THE LAST DAY obviously then this means that the rapture is on the last day since the RAPTURE IS AFTER THE RESURRECTION.
The rapture is on the last day.
3. The resurrection / rapture is in Rev 20:4. Here we find ‘the last day’. John says he saw the dead come to life. This is the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture is right after it. The rapture is post trib. It is AFTER Rev 5-19. The church goes THROUGH the tribulation. We will not experience Gods wrath just like Israel did not experience Gods wrath when God punished Egypt. And Noah didn’t experience Gods wrath when He flooded the whole earth, but Noah was preserved THROUGH the flood. Not raptured out of it. Israel was not raptured out of Egypt. God will test the church. He will have a pure spotless bride for His Son.
Any other position other than a posttrib rapture twists and distorts Gods Word.
And then there’s Jesus’ message in
Matthew 24:29-31
“But immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days……..And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, ………….And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
------
Jesus Himself says that He is coming back for His church and will gather it immediately AFTER the tribulation.
How can it get ANY CLEARER????
Stop with this false doctrine of a PreTrib rapture. The doctrine of escapism has to be exposed and refuted by the word of God. Too many people planning their escape instead of filling their lamp with oil.
Having said this, in Rev 3:10 God promises to keep those who have proven their faithfulness from the hour of testing. Knowing that be so faithful that God keeps you from the tribulation. Remember this promise of Christ is to only ONE of the seven churches in Revelation. One. There are letters to SIX other churches.
And remember this verse.
Revelation 13:7
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
--
God will give Antichrist power to persecute and kill His saints. Sounds crazy but that’s His plan. Don’t let people tickle your ears with anything that’s not the truth.
2 Timothy 2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.
Read your Bible. Test your teachers. Reject false teachers. Endure to the end and you will be saved. That’s a promise from God.
"They think they're missed the Day of the Lord"? Who wouldn't want to miss the Day of the Lord, given its OT meaning-? I don't think they would be upset by that.
What they fear is that they have missed the Rapture, which Paul told them in II Thess 2 would happen fairly soon AFTER the Abomination of Desolation. The Day of the Lord (wrath), which comes after the Rapture, is not the Day of Christ (something positive--the Rapture).
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him (RAPTURE), we ask you 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ (RAPTURE) had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day (RAPTURE) will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,..."
We will face the Antichrist, but the wrath comes earlier than indicated here, I believe scripture says.
The Thessalonians were "troubled" & "shaken" due to a bogus letter having been circulated among them, TELLING them that the "DAY OF CHRIST" in *vs 2* (the tribulation), had commenced & the rapture had not even taken place. This is certainly not what Paul had taught them in his 1st letter to them.
Paul goes on to comfort & assure them, that *=====>* "THAT DAY" *
@@Kman.
You're saying that because Paul began with a topic sentence discussing the Rapture (resurrection/rapture), rules of grammar prohibit him from referring to it again in v 2 using the phrase "Day of Christos"?
As a writer by profession, I know of no such rules. And "that Day" in v 3 does not appear in the Greek text but was added by the translators (appears in italic).
In the NT, the phrase "Day of the Lord," which refers to the OT concept of the day of God's wrath poured out on the wicked occurs in only I Thess 5, Acts 2:20, and 2 Peter 3:10. Isa 61 v 2 speaks of the concept as the day of the vengeance of our God.
USE OF CHRISTOS VS. KYRIOS IN PAUL'S 2 LETTERS THAT FOCUS ON THE EVENTS SURROUNDING JESUS' RETURN
The KJV and NKJV base their translations on the Greek Textus Receptus, which uses Christos in II Thess 2 v 2 whereas translations based on Nestle-Aland incorrectly use Kyrios (Lord) in v2.
Why did Paul distinguish between the Day of Christ and the Day of the Lord in I Thess 5 and II Thess 2 by using two different terms? Because they are two separate events.
2 Thess 2:2 "...as though the Day of Christ (Christos) had come." That is the day of resurrection/rapture for believers.
By contrast, Paul specifically uses the term Kyrios or Lord when referring to the Day of the Lord (day of wrath) in I Thess 5. The whole chapter focuses on the Great Day of the Lord.
I Thess 5 v 2 "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord (Kyrios) so comes as a thief in the night, for when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction comes upon them."
In the above verse Paul is obviously not referring to the resurrection/rapture.
Verses that use "the Day of the Lord Jesus" as in I Cor 5:5 are also referring to the resurrection/rapture. They do not refer to the OT concept of the Day of the Lord--the use of Lord is determined by the context.
@@ReLair88 The "RULE" being o/looked or disregarded, would be the "Last Antecedent Rule", where "that day" in *vs 3* would be tied to the "day of Christ" in *vs 2,* NOT the rapture that is noted in *vs 1.*
Your disagreement, is in thinking that the "day of Christ" in *vs 2* speaks of the rapture, when I submit to you that it speaks of the tribulation period.
So, how do we come to u/stand that the "day of Christ" is the tribulation & NOT the rapture? Well *vss 2,3* tell us that the believers were "shaken in mind" & "troubled", and this is a far cry from what meeting Christ - our blessed hope - will bring. They would have been filled w/joy unspeakable, full of glory! *2ndly...*
They feared that the tribulation was "AT HAND", i.e. present, observable, it had commenced, & was active...the perfect tense, having effects in he now. It would be an event that began in the past, but _continues_ in the present. On the o/hand, the rapture will be an event that will take place, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" *(I Cor **15:52**),* which is not s/thing that will even be measurable as we count time.
Paul set out to CORRECT & to COMFORT the Thessalonians *(vss 5,17),* reminding them that the tribulation cannot/will not begin _U N T I L_ @ least 2 conditions are met, both of which are noted in *vs 3...*
*1)* The falling away
*2)* The man of sin is revealed
All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*
Paul wrote 1 Thes because Math 27:52-53 happened 1 st century AD prior to Nero 1 Thes 4:14 those "asleep" come with HIM confirms this. Is on Hebrew day called First Fruits is Rev 14:4 all are youtful virgins again 1 Cor 15:53. ( esplains the "caughting up" ) Elijiaha caught up to 3rd heaven bears destroy youth for mocking the POWER of GOD telling Eljiah had be "caught up" There are 3 events on each side of the cross Like the Menirah. JESUS walked with Adam and Eve. Came as the Lamb and HE stated "coming again" 1 Four Zero Three Eight Three Zero Fortyone Twentyfour. Zeck 14 NO reserection v5 saints ( aseep , dead alive Rev 11 and those " beheaded" ) from 3rd heaven Marriage Supper to reign as Ambasdors with HIM for 1000 yrs. Not just.2nd coming.