How to Write a Novel Without Plotting (Intuitive Pantser)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
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Brainstorming Questions
What does this character want more than anything else?
What would most motivate this character to take action?
What would stop this character from taking action?
What is the worst thing that could happen to this character?
What is the best thing that could happen to this character?
Who or what is stopping this character from getting what they want?
What does this character need to learn in order to be happy?
Love, Hate, Indifferent Editing Technique: • How to Start Editing Y...
Structural Series: • How to Write the Statu...
My core/essential videos for learning novel writing are listed here: ellenbrockedit...
All of my video topics and other resources are listed here: ellenbrockedit...
What often works for me is to turn off the pc and go for a walk outside, determined NOT to think about the book - and quite often ideas just pop into my head unbidden. Sometimes these ideas don't pan out when I open the doc and start writing - BUT - sometimes it's like an epiphany. The book I'm currently writing has taken directions I hadn't thought of at all at the start - and quite often, a character's motivation, which hadn't been clear, is suddenly revealed.
Diffusive - focus brain modes. I've noticed that too: my thing is to lift and focus solely on the iron. Ideas just pop up. It can also happen when about to fall asleep. 👍
Reading this is how I knew I was this above embarressing stereotypical writer. I have practiced this since as long as I could walk. The writing came much later, as a kid you can manage more words per minute with your voice.
Advice + Timestamps:
1. DON'T PLOT, BUT DO BRAINSTORM 3:13
2. IF YOU NEED MORE DIRECTION, ASK QUESTIONS 6:13
3. ACTIVATE YOUR INTUITION AT THE START OF EVERY WRITING SESSION 8:13
4. READ THE PREVIOUS CHAPTER TO REORIENT TO YOUR STORY 9:56
5. DON'T TRY TO NAIL EVERYTHING IN THE FIRST DRAFT 11:09
6. START EDITING BY ASSESSING HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THE FIRST DRAFT 13:13
7. GET COMFORTABLE WITH THROWING THINGS AWAY 15:53
8. EDIT THE BIG PICTURE FIRST 17:41
9. HACK YOUR INTUITION WITH SUMMARIES 20:17
10. WORK DEEPLY ON SMALLER SECTIONS 22:57
11. DON'T BE AFRAID OF A TRIAL & ERROR APPROACH 24:27
12. LABEL AND SAVE EVERYTHING 26:19
13. ACCEPT THAT TWO GOOD IDEAS CAN BE INCOMPATIBLE 28:33
14. REMEMBER THERE'S NO RIGHT ANSWER 30:52
15. IF YOU GET STUCK, IT'S OKAY TO LOOK AT METHODOLOGY 33:17
Thank you
Really good point about the difference between plotting and Brainstorming. As an Intuitive pantser, I'll brainstorm the ending and climax and a few other interesting scenes, and then when I write, I just work on how do I get in that position.
This is how I do it. I have a beginning and ending in mind. And then puzzle events on how we got there.
Yep- me exactly.
Same here, but I often struggle with the middle.
I don't think Ellen knows just how much she's helping weary writers.
Yes she does. It's why she does it.
Tip for people who think better when they’re on the move: listen to your novel in a text-to-speech app while you take a loooong walk. Record your revisions, new ideas, or whole chapters in a voice memo app.
you're already right outta the gate with "dont plot" and now i know you know what you're talking about. I'm nearly 100% intuitive pantser--if I try to plot it makes me wanna die inside and I never wanna think about the story again--so i'm excited to see what other tips you have!
This is the best writing video I have ever seen. You really capture what it's like to be the 'intuitive pantser' type. We are often made to feel bad about how we function, and we hear a lot that this is the wrong way to write a novel or maybe a childish way or we need to do x, y and z to be serious about our work and that we should basically stop being who we are. I was honestly in tears throughout, so thank you for you sensitivity, your compassion and especially for your excellent advice. I was pleasantly surprised at your in-depth tips and your approach. Thank you!
As a strongly intuitive writer, you might also want to check out Lauren Sapala here on youtube. 🙂
I have always known that I write intuitively. But, the writing world seems to be run by plotters and their methodologies are upheld as infinitely better, and even the only legitimate writing method that it is so rare to find writing tips and instructions for pantsers, let alone intuitive ones.This video confirmed that the way I write is 'legitimate'. I've been confronted at writing conferences, events, groups, classes, writing forums, etc with 'plotting is the right way' over and over which is disheartening. While I still kept writing, I never tried to publish. This video has bolstered my belief in my own writing abilities. I wish this was an audio file that I could listen to when I start to doubt myself. Thank you so much. Well worth the wait. I will return to this often to remind myself that intuitive pantsers are real writers too!
May I ask you a few questions? I am not sure if I am an intuitive pantser or not. I mean I suspect I am, but feel a bit confused from the video? Do we write the first draft without editing the previous chapter? Are we to ignore word count goals like the methodological pantsers?
I posted these questions as well and would just like an answer. I have listened to the video several times just to remind myself. Thank you.
@@kaylajames9334 - I can only speak for myself. I just write as scenes or dialogue come to me. I do brainstorming and mind mapping when I'm trying to work things out or just write it out and see where it goes; either way works for me. I may go back over something I've written to add to it, but the editing/rewriting phase I leave until I've written the entire story. I don't work well with word count goals; they are too stress inducing. Instead I write for a minimum amount of time - for example 15 minutes. Usually, I write more than that, but the minimum of 15 minutes takes the pressure off and gets me going. Hope this helps. The important take-away from all Ellen Brock's videos for me is to find the way that works for you and do it. Hope this helps.
@@h.s.s.3881 thanx so much
Ellen you are a national treasure. I cannot begin to express how much your insights and instructions have helped my writing. Thank you thank you thank you
You are so welcome! Thank you for your kind comment!
International actually. Lol I'm from Europe and this advice applies still lol
Wow... Watching your previous videos on the writer types, I was fairly certain I was a methodological pantser, but now I think I must lean a little more towards this type. Especially the final tip made me chuckle, because I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve discussed problems in my stories with other people, only to suddenly basically tell them to shut up because I got an entirely unrelated idea and I have to pursue it IMMEDIATELY. Anyway, I’d just like to chime in with the chorus of grateful followers and tell you that your videos are invaluable! Thank you so much for the work you put in and the level of (practical and inspiring) detail you go into.
3:14 Brainstorm instead of plot
7:16 Brainstorming Questions
8:17 Active your intuition at the start of your writing session
14:06 Break down your novel elements in editing
17:42 Edit the big picture first
30:53 Remember there’s no right answer
* Activate your intuition 😉
After watching the first video I was thinking, "Intuitive pantser is the rarest type so certainly I'm not that." So I watched the Methodological Pantser and Intuitive Plotter videos. They had some good ideas I'll try but still didn't feel right. Then I started this video and about 5 minutes in, I went, "Nope, totally an Intuitive Pantser." So thank you for this series and all of the tactics to try. It's great to have some ideas for the next time I'm stuck.
Only 10.5K views? Pity. Ellen dumps a bucket of gems on writers for free and so few of us see her presentations. Another home run!
I've been writing for many years and experience the death of my intuition whenever I attempt to plot. Speaking with other people they find it puzzling that I have no idea where the story will be going. I usually have a vague idea but find myself surprised by what I've written and where the story has end up constantly.
The advice you've given speaks to me on a deeper level (some of which I've already implemented intuitively, others I might try out), so I would like to thank you genuinely from the bottom of my heart for your work.
When you talked about getting ideas in the shower, I felt that in my soul!🥰
Methodological pantser here
This video is very helpful! Thank you! I’ll watch it again when I get home so I can write notes
And wow! Some of these tips I’ve done in different books
I'm just so happy that TH-cam isn't banned in Russia yet and I have the opportunity to watch your videos! Even though I'm certainly not an intuitive pantser, I still find extremely interesting how different types work
Thank you!
Oh, hi there xD
@@dariakey5318 привет х)
Get VPN while you can
@@5idi I've already got it but officials started blocking VPN services as well
@@kotrena Damn... Well, let's hope this mess will be over soon.
Yaaas, I was looking forward to this one. I'm gonna make some tea now 🙌☕️🍀
I knew I’d chosen the right designation when you discussed moving scenes and keeping copies of the previous draft. I do this ALL THE TIME.
Love this! Especially appreciate all the advice you gave about editing as an intuitive panster. The trap of trying to hold myself to the 'right' way of doing things and getting further mired in frustration was hard to escape from. I like how you acknowledge this type can hold to what they feel is most right for their story even if they can't explain why structurally, while also giving practical tips on how to highlight the core of their ideas. Cheers!
I wish your videos existed fifteen years ago to give my past self a boost. 😂 I had to figure out what worked best for me by trial and error. I love the other videos too because they’ve given me good ideas of different approaches I can try depending on what my current block is. I’m on draft 8 right now because I’ve had to rewrite the book so many times to understand my world and characters better, and develop them, and work out issues with my plot, and now I’m finally adding in my last minute touches. Couldn’t have gotten this far without all your other videos. 🙏🤓
I know that feeling too well! I wish all of authortube existed 15 years ago... 😭 I've lost a great deal of my "beginners enthusiasm", because I started in an era with zero (online) tools, knowlegde, support. But grateful it's available now, fighting through it. We're not the only ones! We'll just do this in our pace now. Because these stories are still worth it.🍀
Throwing away is… so difficult. Even at over 200k.
I’d like a deeper dive please (or a link to an existing video) for deciding what to toss, what to shorten, and what to keep.
Especially when you feel like almost everything can be either shortened or kept!
It's so fun to watch this and check off every point like yup, that's what I do! As I go through the editing process I become more of an intuitive plotter, so that video also resonated a lot. But it's so nice to have all the stuff I do affirmed, since I feel like the trend in the writing world has swung to methodological plotter types. Also, in editing big picture stuff, I always rewrite. My project right now I've rewritten 3 times already, and am going into a fourth. Usually so much big picture stuff needs to change so I don't bother editing initial drafts.
I’m a fairly hardcore methodological plotter and I don’t like the swing 😩. It takes the JOY out of writing for so many people. I ENJOY plotting thinking about structure and editing the outline first, so it doesn’t diminish my desire to write. But I’m *constantly* telling my pantsing friends not to try and be me unless their system isn’t working for them. The writing world is trending to this “one true way” of writing, and it’s a disservice to us all.
You know me so well as an intuitive pantser who only focuses on the flow and word choices instead of the big picture. Editing is a disaster and I actually never do it. Very helpful ideas!!! I keep all versions of my novel and now I feel a little bit more motivated to keep writing
Yes. Motion while brainstorming helps me so much!
I know this sounds cheesy but watching this was such a relief it brought tears to my eyes. Mostly brainstorming. I have to do this and thought it meant I needed to plot, but when I plot I just think. Story done. I know I need to ask questions about my characters to make them feel real and fleshed out. Again, thought that was part of plotting.
I was trying again because the story in my head is so complex I know I am having troubles wraping my head around how to remember everything. But to hear everything about how I'm feeling is normal for my type is a relief beyond words.
After this, I think I'll go with my gut and just live in my character's head. I've written little notes of what each character needs to have happen, what the story needs to get to the end, and some random subplots.
Just an extreme thank you for your idea of how to organize my brain and not feel foolish for feeling so uncomfortable outlining and staring at plot structures and feeling restricted.
yay, finally the video for me!!!!!!
edit: the problem with deleting anything I write is that each scene and action evolve from each previous scene and action, and removing a thing is like pushing a domino that affects everything after it...
This only has 700 likes so far because intuitive pantsers all have ADHD and we all bookmarked it immediately intending to watch it after our lunch and will forget about it until we find it again by accident in 6 months time.
"A 300K first draft that took 8 years", I feel attacked! lol
I do plot, but I've found out that I should never hold myself to it, and I use it more or less as a means to flesh out the story a little, basically it gives the story some goals to aim at.
While I can just write, I'm learning that it is better to spend more time fleshing out the world of the story, the characters and their motivations. I would agree with what you said, that the most important thing seems to be, why am I writing this story. Case in point, I started a comedy fantasy, but after 20K words, I'm not feeling drawn to write it; it's more or less something that I can write, rather than really want to. So I've gone back to a sci-fi I've obsessed over for ages.
I use scrivener to have an accessible research area, a list of character names, places, science/fantasy elements, and so on (basically an appendix). because so much is done on the fly, it is incredibly helpful to have a side note to say, what the weather is, or what the name of the Inn is that the people are staying at, etc. small details that are needed for continuity.
For me, what helps the story flow, between sessions, is that I list out the bullet points for each chapter, and the next several, that gives me a direction I know the story is headed in, noting of course that 3 expected chapters can turn into 9.
Thanks for the video, it's definitely informative.
Amazing work Ellen
Thank you so much!
I think this was one of your most helpful videos. I listened to you to get in the right headspace before writing before this video.
ellen brock, novel editor and renowned author whisperer, tbh 💕
Wow! Timely information that had me laughing out loud, as it's clear I'm an intuitive pantser. I have literally used each of those 'hacks' along the way. Heading into my first revision, I'm deeply grateful for your patience with the I.P.'s sensitive psyche ;) and appreciate this gentle nudge. My opening will undergo a major overhaul, as the story took some twists along the way, and I'm eager to get (re)-started now. Thanks Ellen, may be seeing you later this year for some editing... if I can avoid tripping over all my loose ends.
Great video! One thing I'll add is that sometimes if I get stuck, the best thing for me is to write down multiple different options for how the scene goes, and then following those conclusions all the way through in my head/on paper to see if it's the right move. I've found that doing this can really help, especially if you get stuck on a particular part and can't figure out what to do next. Just start considering all the possible outcomes and pick the one that flows the best.
I am definitely this type of writer, and you nailed it! Great job on this video!
I'm really glad I discovered your channel. It's like having someone to talk to about writing. I've been published in newspapers several times. I have a novel bouncing around in my head and I really feel like your videos will help me get to it. Thanks so much.
I’ve been activating my intuition before I start my writing sessions and it’s helping me SO MUCH. Thank you!!!!!
I just started a completely unplotted & unplanned story like a week ago. Going super well so far.
Thank you, Ms. Brock!
This is amazing! I lean more methodical, but I’ve gotten good tips for this. Especially talking about writing scenes in different ways with different characters or different locations. I wasn’t sure if that was a good thing! I’m glad it is! And I lol’d at flip a coin. Yup. Have done that with a 6-sided die. Had to roll it a couple times till I found something I liked.
This was the most helpful writing video I've ever seen! Thank you so much for this. I love your breakdown of the different writing types, and I think it's so much more helpful than the way people usually just discuss plotters and pantsers. I'm so glad I found this channel, your advice is not only helpful, but motivating and inspiring.
Have been waiting for this!
You keep the good work and effort, Ellen
Differ from Intuitive Plotter with Methodological Pantser, Intuitive Pantser its just complete write-on-whim kind of writing process.
This has to be one of the best videos I've seen for writers / creatives.
Thank you soooo much for this!
I definitely need to go back and see the previous video. I absolutely love how you information validates the different types plus everything in between. That validation and support is soooo valuable.
Thank you so much for the tips. This video really felt like me.
You explain things sooo well. Absolutely love the song analogy ☺️
I'm so glad you found it helpful!
Exactly this, thank you thank you thank YOU!!!! I can't find anyone else who talks about just not feeling it anymore once you plot. It drives me crazy that I've planned and planned outlines and have lost interest in each one the moment I knew it all. It took me way to long to realize I was not going to be able to know everything in advance and needed to discover it. It's a comic rather than novel too, so complicated.
I was really convinced I was a methodological plotter, but now I’m unsure, again. What a world. But, long as I keep writing…
20:17 Hack your intuition with summaries.
Thank you. This was very helpful.
I’m definitely at Intuitive type between pantser and planner. I take light notes (bullets) but then heavily improvise off of them to keep it creative and loose for experimentation. So I do plan, but I try not to overdo it.
Plantser.
@@kaylajames3098 makes sense, thank you
You are getting better at your teaching🙂
This is exactly what I needed to hear right now - thank you so much for this video! Around the 12 minute mark, when you speak about writing extra material of the character, waking up, going about their day and carrying out mundane tasks ... that's exactly what I've just spent the last chapter writing about, knowing that I'm not going to include it in the final draft of my story, but not knowing what else to write because I don't 'know' my story yet. I've felt down and frustrated about it for the last few days to be honest, knowing that it's not improving the plot line, knowing that it's not serving any real purpose in propelling the story forwards and is essentially just 'extra crap'... but what I've just heard you say about not holding back, giving yourself permission to write these things, even if they don't end up in the final draft, using them to get to know your characters better ... it all just makes perfect sense the way you've said it. I've never thought about it in such explicit terms before, but I definitely do this in my writing, and now I realise I just need to let myself do it, that there's nothing wrong with it, even going into it, knowing these extra bits won't make the final cut... they ARE serving the purpose of getting to know my characters and my world better. Thank you so much! What a wonderful, perfectly-timed revelation.
Yes. It came. I am trying this method right now, I think. I am writing questions as I go and noting character traits as I see them. I am also editing the previous day’s work. I will make a music playlist.
This video is awesome. Thank you.
Ellen, these videos are so clarifying and helpful. I love the last tip on this one about trying methodological options when you get stuck intuitively. I think this is exactly what I do. And I used to think that if I'd started off using more of a plotting approach I wouldn't get stuck like that but the idea that I need to do the discovery writing first and then use the other approach when I get stuck is reassuring as to my process. Also, as an intuitive writer, I often use dreams and the tarot.
I've watched your videos over and over again, you are by far the best resource on youtube on methods, etc. I would love it if you could record some examples where you edit someone's draft, how you go through it, methods, what you are thinking about etc etc.
This video is so helpful----and in ways you may not even realize! Some of your tips I've been intuitively doing since I began writing as a kid. (And you've added more to my repertoire! Thank you!) BUT, we "pantsers" constantly hear from writing instructors and critique groups that' we're doing it the "wrong" way and that we must change our methodologies. While I've always pushed back against that, having some "backup" in the form of pointing to your videos will be really helpful and save us a lot of energy.
I think I'm an extrem example for this type, since plotting makes me both less ecxited and creative. I always thought that what I used to do before I started writing (making playlists, collages and scrolling through Pinterest) is not the real work, so I should do something more "professional" instead. I haven't written for a long-long time for a couple of reasons, but what I mentoined is a part of that... I was affraid of plotting.😅
Now, I have the intention to write again and you remainded me how excititng this whole process truly is. Thank you so-so much!
Thank you so much for all of your insight, advice, strategies and tools. You have no idea how helpful this is. Keep being awesome!
So many good points, thank you!
Ellen, you are truly amazing. I feel reinvigorated, validated (I hate that word and concept, lol, but it's so apt here), and like my process really is a method, after all. Everything you said in that video, literally everything, spoke to me. I ended up smiling and laughing a lot, as if I was getting my personality read, like way back when I hired a career counsellor in my twenties. You are outstanding at what you do. Your information and knowledge is on point, and your delivery is perfection (another concept I don't actually believe in, lol, but it applies to you!) As everyone else has said so poignantly, thank you for seeing us, helping us, and being so gracious with your time and energy.
I will have to support you on Patreon. I don't have an account there, but you deserve to be paid for this, my dear.
Yessssssss. Ms. Ellen I miss you so much.
This one hit home for me. Right smack in the center. Thank you so much.
Thanks, Ellen!
I scoured Linkedin in and out for you Ellen.... Never mind.... Love you 💕💕💕💕💕💕💕
For me, I can't plot because honestly feel like how am I supposed to know what happens? It hasn't happened yet. It happens when I write it. I can come up with the beginning and I know the basics of the ending, like happy, sad, etc. So if you know the destination, then you should probably be able to get there without going off course too much. As I write, I figure things out, but I basically only know what happens next, or I might know very abstract things like they figure the big bad at the end.
But one tip I can give people is to do as much worldbuilding and character work as you can before you start. Also, know story structure. IMO, books need structure, but we see structure every time we watch a cartoon or see a movie. It's ok if it's just internalized and you're not thinking about it, but you should know what it is and how it works, even if you don't spend time trying to fill in plot points. A story has to build to the ending so the ending's earned, that's why it's so important for me to know the basics of the ending. I need that destination.
I've been so hyped for this video! Was not let down. Thank you so much (3/17/22)
8:16 Activate your intuition at the start of every session: Immerse myself in the world in whatever way suits me best. Maybe reread more of what I've written or a brainstorm a certain feeling or scene will help me get there. Create scenes that either push the ch. closer or farther from his super objective. Brainstorm scenes that best pressure and test the protag.
11:10 **Make as many mistakes as possible
24:27 Don't be afraid to invest time on an alternate path if a scene, location, or character motivation is changed. Save as much versions of my projects as needed bc edits could be v drastic.
Editing
13:13 Do I personally love or hate each scene? (editing tech. link in des.)
15:54 Get comfortable throwing/replacing things away, even if it's painful and even if it's of things I really loved.
17:42 **Edit the big picture first (character motive; logic; simplify) (this type can get v distracted)
20:17 Hack my intuition with summaries (esp. with complex narratives/structures)
22:57 Polish characters, world, and increase the enjoyment w reader and self in mind
30:53 **"You're not going to write a version of this novel that's the most correct;" enjoy the (cohesive) story for myself. It's okay if people hate or dislike my stories. Every author has received criticism.
these videos are so good.
I feel so validated right now. It really helped to ease my mind. T-T
Okay so...all the advice you're giving here for this writing type is stuff that worked very well for me as a teenager. Then I quit writing for a long while thanks to severe depression. Now that I'm doing a lot better...perhaps I should see if this is still my writing type :)
Short question: Which type of writer do you personally like the most?
I'm asking, because if for example the Pantser is not your favorite type, I believe that bias would affect the way you give tips to them. Now, I have an intuition based on this video, on whether you sympathize with the Pantser or not, and that intuition is exactly what I'd like to assess with the help of your answer to the short question above.
Ellen is an editor who works with all types of writers. I doubt she has a bias.
Thank you so much for this video
Ellen is the best TH-camr on this subject
Brainstorming and writing a summary sounds helpful to me.
Lol I wish I was living the kind of life where showering & doing dishes were low effort.
What is the best way to decide between alternative plot directions when the intuition has been running rampant for too long? I currently have a choose your own adventure novel, which is the second in a series, and I just can't seem to pick a direction and stick with it because of intuitive doubt. It has turned into a choose your own adventure novel! Would love some tips on that issue.
Your tips are invaluable, and you're by far the most knowledgeable and informative writing instructor out there. Thank you!
thank you so much for this series! I have been watching videos by abbie emmons...and she makes a lot of great points and videos, but i just CANNOT plan and plot my story or focus on story structure. i've always been one to get a scene in my head and just begin writing. my last novel i tried the snowflake method and it's the biggest writing mistake i ever made. i ended up with a story with two major plotlines with no connecting point between the two, basically making it 2 separate stories where one plotline has no influence on the events of the other. total disaster, and to this day (5 years later) still not finished with that story and have no solution to fix the disconnected plotlines. i'm learning a lot from your breakdowns and a lot of your advice really resonates with how i write. i'm somewhere between an intuitive and methodological panster. i think intuitive for the write through of the first draft and then methodological for the next iterations.
I'm the extreme kind, I have a 500k "draft" and I haven't even started thinking of direction or publishing. I'm actually considering to stop writing and go back to just living through it in my head.
I have pantsed short stories and novellas before and I really really loved it. But anything longer than, say 30k, and it becomes straight up impossible for me to do it. I just lose the plot halfway through and end up with a huge mess of a first half. I kind of love trying different things and while I haven't the perfect way for me, I keep coming back to your methodological pantser video.
This one was very interesting, but I guess I'm not an intuitive pantser when it comes to novels. I wish I was because it IS fun when I do it with shorter stories, but alas, it's not meant to be. Thank you so much for your videos, they've been very helpful.
Very much the same. Pantsing short stories is so much fun, I often go right into it with an idea of what the plot is but nothing else, and it turns out great, while plotting a short story doesn't work as well, but for longer thingsI need planning, both for the story and to just make me motivated to keep going. I think it has to do with longer plots being harder to get a good grip on, and generally, plotters do end up having to rewrite less than pantsers as a result
Thanks again Ellen! Your comprehensive videos are always so helpful. And you seem to be the only person on TH-cam who has broken down the two main writing types into four different groups. You explain them so well. Your advice has been brilliant. Thanks to you, I have recently discovered that my writing type is somewhere between a methodical pantser and an intuitive pantser. The former being the best fit. 🤗👍😁
I'm (mostly) an Intuitive Pantser
if I want to do a "big picture" edit on a section, I've worked out that I like to copy and past that section into its own document, so that I can do that work without the whole novel surrounding it (almost treating it as its own "short story" or arc), then when it's done, put it back in and read it back in context
Dear, dear Ellen: Thank you! Precise and helpful as always. It seems that being an intuitive pantser it not mostly about writing, but rather about re-writing and editing. I read "Writing Into the Dark" by Dean Wesley Smith who also claims to be a pantser (or discovery writer) and he uses a method called "cycling" where his first draft is his final draft - no re-writing at all. It's a quite interesting book, but also a rather radical concept. I struggle with editing, spending a lot of time overthinking things. It's hard to come to an end, because naturally I want my novel to be perfect and it seems that there are always some points that can be polished, some phrases changed or some dialogues improved. On the other hand, I think it was Jodie Picoult who said "You can edit a bad page, but you can't edit a blank page". Sometimes it helps just to keep writing when you're stuck. It might not be the most elegant way out of a tight spot but at least you're moving. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle between both concepts. I spend some time brainstorming with your questions, Ellen, and it's been like sitting at a table with my main character, drinking a cup of tea and discussing things. Now I open Scrivener and see what she's going to tell me ;)
I've read that book and his blog. I keep coming back to this video though and feel so confused and torn.
@@kaylajames3098 I totally understand you! As I said, I try something „in the middle“ at the moment. We‘ll see if it‘s going to work ;)
@@LoveSaidNo Would you mind if I ask what the middle is? Maybe I can try. I know I am a pantser but not how to finish a draft.
@@kaylajames3098 There‘s of course no „official solution“. I just write everything down as it comes, even though there are some chapters where I think „oh god this is horrible“, but I just keep writing, maybe put a little note under it stating what I don‘t like about this chapter. After finishing the first draft, I put the book aside and don’t touch it for say several weeks to months. Then I read it again and I‘ll do a revision as Ellen recommended in her video (with Love/hate/indifferent/big picture). Then I‘ll do the necessary changes and won‘t touch it again. Just one revision, sometimes I let my husband or a friend read the alterations, sometimes not.
@@LoveSaidNo Oh, thank heaven. I thought I had to do several revisions. Well, I suppose I can try this again. I try writing messy first drafts and I get way too afraid. I will try again though.
I admit, I was thinking of skipping this one, since I relate most to the methodological plotter process, but it proved insightful. Particularly the part of saving different versions of your story
I kinda felt I was this type; turns out I'm 100% this type lol, although I did formulate an outline (that changes along with the plot, as well as adding parts to the "lore" between things). My thoughts on my process after the video. Below, you can find my writing process explained(I think you'll find something interesting to note; Ellen-thanks 🌟)
** It's ok, there's always a method to the madness.**
I feel like I can break my process down here. As a discovery writer, I first didn't how to begin the story. I had written an excerpt, but didn't quite know how to break it down. I created a rough outline based on that initial excerpt and layed out the initial theme, then characters, settings, and finally plot and lore. The plot outline fits into three stages: initial brainstorm for the continuation of the excerpt, then from there come up with the genres/comp titles. After that, create the main plotline. Then, edit and adjust the excerpt to fit the new outline and write. Still have the advantage of discovery writing, but now I can write scene summaries as I go.
This would be my initial process until I wanted to rework the story over twice; first time because I wanted to "discover myself" and create a sort of intuition/personality log/mind map(I made an iceberg) of myself to determine, okay, these are the main things that I've learned about myself that I want to share in the story. So, I took that and connected the worthy ideas to the story's main plot line and "character arc" or journey I want the main characters to go on. From there, the mood and tone of the story becomes personalized and it became a lot easier for me to discovery write. Once I got 50% through my first draft in roughly 2-3 months, I decided to rewrite it because I thought a tense change would suit it better. This "secondary draft level change" allowed me to expand and redo the outline, while implementing the lore I initially drafted for my current WIP. Now I'm roughly 60-65% through, but I've had all the time to practice and prepare. This process of discovery write works for me, how would you change it or suit it for your own needs?
What ends up happening is now I have a large outline to work with, I memorize the story by rereading the previous chapter or scene to get the rhythm of the story, and implement the next scene or however long my creative juices flow(it helps me with listening to music, go for a walk, have a break-cook, food, drink- or other activities to stimulate brain flow-there are instances where your intuition kicks into hyper-focus and good material comes out of it. I even made a playlist I feel fits the vibe of the overall story). Some days I only feel I can edit, so I look for line-level changes that can be made, some instances I rewrote a scene to reduce the word count.
This "process" ends up with a far more refined first draft, and vastly reduces how much I'll have to change in the end(it'll be a matter of removal for pacing[since I'm writing in real-time moments with the characters, which has a lot of dialogue and action-I found this narrative style is actually publishable material, I even own a copy of a bestseller that uses this style although I didn't even know about the style until I discovered my narrative voice and style]. From above, pacing and reducing length becomes the focus in second and third draft and so on based on beta reader/critique partner feedback and based on my own assessment of the plot when I go through it again with a fine-tooth comb after my first draft, or as I like to call it, my "Writer's Cut" of the manuscript. Subsequent drafting is all about making "The Definitive Cut" of your novel, and I can say this process is a very fun one, because it's still flexible for me with the plot and story, and I'll adjust or write plot points based on scene summaries, maybe even combine them in scenes all to make the story pace pick up or slow down by my own intuition). By this point I know the characters, how they interact and act, etc. So I may draft out one or two directions for the next scene if I'm unsure, and pick the one that matches the overall tone of the piece. I'll continue to work on it until the piece's initial draft is done.
Much thanks goes out to Shaelen for her writing advice as well(both on Reedsy and her main channel-check out her content if you haven't); it's helped me tremendously over this summer in "discovering" my place in this wondrous world of writing. ♥
I hope you don't mind my saying so, but this process seems a mix of pantser and plaster types. I am still trying to find my own process, so don't mind me. It seems a bit complicated.
@@kaylajames3098 I don't mind. Actually, now that if takes a turn for hitting the revision process, now I gotta edit the entire storyline dramatically to avoid redoing scenes, reduce word count, and now that the "practice draft" is over, I can plot out a whole summary, with a new one, and pick and choose elements to fix up the plot(from non-linear-linear outline[for the most part, some flashbacks are necessary]). Many character motivations for those not having a pov are unclear, so i have to address those, as I realize the scope of the world I am working with-I started writing the story one way, but the world building takes the genre another way, same with wanting to change pov, not to mention "edgy" writing may dilute what sort of audience the book is trying to appeal for-I feel noone would read it in its current state-so I'm keeping the base elements that affect the magic system and worldbuilding to rework the plot(and a key group have a more "active presence"). If you're wondering, I started writing a "mystery" fantasy. Due to that, I'd discovery write what it's about, and now that it is clear, it's an urban fantasy with high-fantasy elements(particularly the magic system).
*Discovery writing led me to hate flashbacks, they're annoying and complicate the plot/halt the pacing to a grinding halt, reducing all tension.*
@@gamewriteeye769 Well, considering the fact that I am still undecided as to which of the pantser types I am, I get it. I also haven't been able to finish a draft yet, so congratulations there. Although I must tell you that the way you explain your process makes me incredibly afraid. Lol. I thought only plotters could do that to me. I mean I'm sure if I were doing it then it would make sense, but on the other side it's like "wait... what? Wait... what now?"
@@kaylajames3098 Yeah, don't worry. I'm a pantser, too. I hate plotting, I find the writing more fun, but it has to be done if you know the story doesn't work. Discovery write your process, and you'll find what you're comfortable with-I would have finished this project back in high school if life didn't get in the way, but I have a lot of time to finish it, so I mean heck, it depends. I procrastinate too much on plotting though... (inner laughter). **Mental discipline**
@@kaylajames3098 Technically, it's a fourth draft, but this time with completed ideas, as all other drafts never made it past the first 5-6 chapters. This rigorous method allowed me to finish, and don't take it from me, but I write or rather wrote everyday to "finish" it; technically, the draft doesn't have an "ending" because it's too long(if I wrote the whole thing at its pacing, it'd be 340k word count, or 1,187 pages). I'm not kidding when I say, plotting will help majorly in not overwriting or underwriting. Stopped at just over 200K. But now, I know what the story is and can make a far more refined draft to work as a launchpoint. The art of writing is rewriting.
This is literally the way I write. For 30 years I've been feeling like I was doing it wrong because NOBODY writes the way I do and frequently things that work other writers don't work for me. I feel validated! Thank you
Have you had any publishing success? Asking because I wrote like this (intuitive pantser) and my novels wandered and were bloated. I’ve adopted several planning methods and seeing better results. Haven’t gotten a publisher yet but way more confident in my most recently project.
Sounds like we need a support group for intuitive pantsers so they can meet other intuitive pantsers!
i feel so seen ahhaha, it kinda comforts me that my process kind of settled into what you're suggesting on its own - but that last one, the feeling something is off, but being unable to pinpoint it... oh it's so real ahhahahahhaha
You have great advice & presentation in all your videos, thanks sm!
Woo!💚
Been waiting for this entry of the series for month, and it’s as helpful as always. Thank you!!
I'm a pantser. I don't plot. It hinders me. But I do brainstorm.
Have you written novels this way?
I can't believe there's a whole terminology and classification for how I like to write! Finally I can describe myself as a "pantser" instead of "bad at writing, unorganized, too stupid to plan ahead" et cetera, lmao
Erin, so many of the things you mentioned in this video ring true for me. I appreciated the validation for those of us who mean to follow the traditional processes, but a thought takes us off somewhere before we can even write down an outline.
The 'permission' to look at methodology when I'm stuck was a relief, kind of the opposite of the shaming I might put myself through. ('If you would have just followed this in the first place...')
I also write short stories about my side characters, just as you mentioned, to figure them out--what drives them, etc. It's much better than making lists of traits.
Thank you for 'getting' us intuitves, and for making us feel welcome!
Ellen is very thorough & helpful!
Thank you this was brilliant perfect for me.
It seems a good approach is to be a SPONTANEOUS Panser - within - a STRUCTURED plan. ☺️
I am having trouble pinning myself down. Here's my process.
1. Come up with novel title. Then come up with concept and rough idea of MC and most important supporting characters.
2. Settle on a word count. I write toward my ideal word count and have never had an issue hitting it. My books average 4.7 stars with hundreds of reviews on Kindle, so this works for me although I know it's controversial.
3. Assuming 3000 words per chapter average (sometimes I go over or under), I decide on the number of chapters in the book. I write a short one paragraph summary of the chapter.
4. I start writing. Concepts like theme, foreshadowing, etc. start to become clear to me as I write.
5. I finish the draft. I go back and edit the draft, mainly fixing grammar and typos and making sure no plot holes exist or plot threads were dropped. I revise problematic scenes and usually polish up the ending a bit.
6. I publish.
It's a pretty straightforward and efficient system for me, but I'd love to be able to nail myself down to one of these types. I can't really be a pantser, but my plotting is light and---here's the kick---I betray my chapter outline 10 times out of ten and revise it every time I finish a chapter.
Any thoughts?
your advice is godsend
I struggled for a long time with my writing process. Cause everyone said it should be like this or that and plotting is everything and so on. After watching your video i finally realised that i'm the intuitive pantser and it seems like pretty normal that my process is very chaotic. So thank you very much for your encouragement and the tips!
This is so helpful and reassuring! The point about having good ideas that are incompatible is such a revelation and will save me so much time and stress. Thank you for posting this :)
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
I didn't want to believe I was this type because it feels so conceited, and I think some things like inspiration boards feel a little twee (sorry!), so I tried to convince myself I must be a methodological pantser... despite the fact that structure kills every single creative spark I might have and makes my writing feel stilted and boring. I'll try to embrace being an intuitive pantser and follow your advice! The biggest problem I have is the "activate your intuition at the start of the writing session" thing, I really need to hack my brain to get in the correct mind space, and I will definitely follow your advice. Thank you so much for all your excellent videos!
you’ve helped me more writing- wise than anyone i’ve ever known. bless you.
Great and informative video as always, thanks a bunch! Stil in the process of watching, but something came to my mind. Sure enough there are different styles of writing a novel, but I just dont know, I write here and there, then go back to the beginning or to the end, lol. It appears for the life of me, I cant write cronologically. But of course I am stil learning, and this can be why I do it so backwards style.
so, I finally understand why I am strugling with my writing. Thx so much ! I try plotting methods, learning every details on rythm, 3 acts method etc etc for 2 years now and it doesn't help at all. I write for ten years and I brake my flow trying to do "better". Now I can accept that it's just not for me XD
thx again (and sorry for my english, I'm french)
I never throw anything away. FOr every book I have "BITS" file. When I cut a scene, character or even a few lines of dialog, I stick it in the BITS file and tell myself i will use it later. It's a game I play with myself and enables me to let stuff go. Oddly enough I do sometimes use it. I cut ten pages from a book and wound up using most of that same 10 pages in a different book 20 years later. Most stuff I put in my BITS file stays there forever but the number of things I pull out make it worth while for me to have one. It's the first file I create for any new nove;