00:01 The four writer types 02:10 The methodological pantser 02:45 Treat your process as fluid and flexible 04:05 Refine your idea before writing the first draft 05:30 Plot in advance only if it helps you 08:15 Expect to run out of steam in the first draft 09:50 Start editing as soon as you are ready 10:50 Avoid using wordcount as a measure of success 12:10 Don't wait for inspiration 13:00 Try rigid story structure systems 27 chapter method Save the cat/Save the cat writes a novel Larry Brooks Story Engineering 15:20 Make your own structural guide, use your own terminology 17:40 Outline as you write (or at least before you edit) 18:45 Make edits in the outline first 19:55 Don't be afraid to throw things away 20:45 Rate your scenes - scene structure, integration into the plot 23:50 Leave beta readers to the very end 25:15 Doing something (anything) is better than getting stuck 26:55 Embrace the chaos
I keep a trash file for every story that I write. Everything that I write for a story that I later decide to get rid of goes into the trash file. DO NOT DELETE THIS FILE. This trash file makes it a lot easier for me, psychologically, to delete stuff that is not working because I'm not really getting rid of it, I'm saving it for later. One of the benefits of a trash file is that I often find that the idea that I discarded from the first quarter of the book can be rewritten and used in the third or fourth quarter of the story or may even serve as the seed for another story completely. I might even end up using it in the first quarter of the story after all when I rewrite some other introductory scenes because they weren't working as originally written. I also love the scene rating idea, I will start using it immediately.
I have a Scrivener project called "a collection of random ideas". When I had to toss a couple ideas from my current story, I moved the writing I did for those / notes into that project for future story.
Oh, I like this. This sounds exactly like what I need. I don't like to delete stuff when I'm editing, and usually find convoluted reasons to keep sections that don't really have a purpose. But this trash file idea is brilliant
Wow. THANK YOU! I have never had someone describe the chaotic "process" of how I feel I write. I'm a bit shocked. You've perfectly described both my deep, abiding respect for "structure" (it IS the key to a great story) and my high frustration at being unable to follow the constant "rules" about how I "should" be doing something and the story "should be" progressing in an outline (which I can never do). I have to SEE the story in order to organize it, but I can't see where the story is going until a scene is written and it feels like something is "revealed" (that I didn't anticipate or plan), and once that happens I then need to go back, edit, fill in and shape the previous writing to support the revelation I just discovered. I feel as if I am constantly jumping back and forth. I had no idea this was even a "method" or anything other than "dabbling" at writing. It just feels messy and disorganized and (at times) overwhelming because I *LIKE* structure and organization. I WANT structure and order. Thank you for letting me know that others feel this dichotomy and have worked successfully within it.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I completely understand what you mean about something being "revealed" about a scene after writing it. That's a great explanation.
As a methodological pantser, I totally understand this! Attempting to outline before writing has always been a nightmare for me and doesn't work for me. Once I get going, though, I often know what will happen two chapters ahead and was even able to see the ending of my novel--just not everything that would happen along the way.
@@mjjulian72 same. When I try to outline, it feels forced and "empty" and I know it's going to change drastically, anyway, so it also feels useless and overly fussy. I'm much better at "pantsing" but I still CRAVE structure. Because when I'm overwhelmed with the chaos, and worry that there is no structure, then I think all I have is a bunch of random scenes. It's so comforting to hear someone give tips on how to handle what I've been trying to assimilate.
My biggest tip, as redundant as it may sound, is that if you write/think in this way you have to remind yourself from time to time that you are that way. When you’re steam rolling through a chapter or scene and come to a screeching haunt, just take the as a cue to do some revising or spell check even. When I go back a little, it usually gives me a little start up juice to get back on the train with.
Seemingly redundant but so helpful. Without this methodology, I tend to write at a snail's pace. When I embrace it, I'll hit a good rhythm. Then, around 700 words in, it's like my brain runs out of battery and just stops working which can be incredibly frustrating. I remind myself to either pick up another approach (editing, outline, etc.) or just walk away from it. I panic that I'm failing. Then, eventually, the inspiration comes back. 🤷♀️
I take "running out of steam" as a sign that whatever I planned doesn't make sense or isn't the most interesting way for that change to take place. I usually take a few days to think over what the character would do and think of plenty of interesting ways it could happen. This always results in a much more exciting finished draft.
Sorry for the word choice but holy shit, this might be the first time I feel really seen by a writing advice. Especially the last two points really hit home, because I always tend to cling to ideas how the process should look like and then I get frustrated because I can't seem to figure out how to make it work for me. I long knew about the plotter-pantser continuum and always thought I'm a plotter, but somehow I struggled a lot with having to outline everything, and when I'd start writing I would change directions a lot anyways and much of the outline would become useless, making me give up - basically as predicted in this video - somewhere after the 20% mark. At the same time, if I wouldn't outline properly I wasn't even able to start writing anything at all. The additional differentiation between intuitive and methodological really solves the puzzle for me. Every point seems to answer so many questions for me, it's crazy how accurate this is. You must be some kind of personality genius lol. I'm not actively writing at the moment but I marked this video and will definitely come back to it. Thanks a lot.
I'm this type and this was my experience too. I like structures and thought then I must be a plotter? Nope! However hard I try, I lose steam with plotting. I thought I was just a bad plotter before realizing through talking to other pantsers that plotting just doesn't work for me. These four types videos have been so helpful
I don't know If you'll ever read this but thank you so much, you've just changed my life. This is me! I've never heard someone discribe my chaotic writing method like that. I've always loved studying structure, it gives me a lot of ideas, but I hate the rigid system of plotters. I love structure, but I hate plotting? Well, yes. I also have to edit as I go, I can't understand my story if I don't. And I jump in the story a lot. I'm a mess, thanks for saying that's ok. And the tips are amazing!!! Hugs. Have a beautiful life 😭❤️
I'm so glad you found this video helpful! Editing as you go to understand the story is a great method and totally necessary for this type. Hugs back to you!
As someone who's neurodivergent, in the past I've had a habit of berating myself for not adhering to what I believed was a "normal" writing process.I've always found it difficult to articulate what i was doing and so on the outside it kind of seemed jumpy or erratic, rather than just a process that I used. I love the phrase 'embrace the chaos' and I honestly cannot describe how much this video resonated with me. Thank you so much!
I think that Dean Wesley Smith is an intuitive pantser, but that said, in his book Writing Into the Dark, he talks about "cycling". He writes about 500 or so words, then when he gets stuck, he goes back over his writing, makes changes, and then pushes ahead another 500 or so, etc. It's a good process, but I now see that I need the methodology; I'm not intuitive, but can incorporate bits and pieces of writing advice wherever I find it. Instinctually, I'm finding what works best for me. The hardest thing - but also the best thing - is learning to embrace your unique writing style and run with it! ;-)
I think this is a perfect description of what plantsers/plotsers are. We are Methodological Pantsers. A while back I came across the "Torch Method" where I plan there next 5-10 scenes, write, then plan again. This is after I have a skeletal summary of the novel. You describe all that so perfectly in this video. Thank you so much. I'm glad I stayed subscribed to you when you were on a break because your channel is a gold mine.
Thank you! You just described the way I write pretty much to a T (or, as much as a chaotic process can be described.) I've always assumed I was a plotter, because I compile tons of notes, summaries, bios, etc. before actually writing anything. But descriptions of either plotter type never really seemed to fit. So much of this does. I tend to go back and forth between plotting/summarizing and actual writing, and half the time the actual writing expands - or alters - what I'd plotted or summarized. And going back and revising sections already written seems natural, even if I'm not done writing the rest yet.
I'm this! But I do want to say that I'm noticing a lot of people in the comments saying they "have to" plot but hate it, but I wanted to say that some of us love to plot. That is, yes, my process requires the combination of plotting and pantsing, but I don't think of this as a negative, because I like both sides so much. I love getting super technical and nitty gritty when plotting, and I love pushing everything side, and forgetting it all when I need to pants. I don't feel burdened by any part of the process, so just putting that out there, that for me, this is a process that is 100% enjoyable from beginning to end.
That's awesome! Yes, the plotting process can be a ton of fun and very playful and exhilarating, especially if you don't take it too seriously. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I give myself 5 months to write around 10k words and almost every time, i daydream about the chapter for 4 months and then the last month i write like a maniac. It works so well for me. Love this series so much! I’ve gotten so many good ideas from you and from reading the comments
I really needed this video today. I'm nearly 90,000 words into my fantasy novel, and I was convinced, because of a lot of writing advice I had heard, that I needed to push through and finish the book before editing or I would never get it done. But at this point I have so many developmental edits to make with what I've already written that pushing through to write the end feels off base because all the things I want to change will most likely change the way the ending unfolds. I have been stuck in this spot for over a month but finally gave myself permission to start back at the beginning with my new vision, and I have been beating myself up about it. So thank you, for telling me it's okay to do that. I don't want to be a methodological pantser, but I guess these are the pants I was dealt. 😂 This video was full of great advice and I feel seen. ❤ Thank you.
Thank you so much! As a methodological pantser I’ve been waiting for this one for what feels like forever! Many of the strategies you mentioned came to me naturally. One of the things I figured out: because I write character based stories, getting stuck usually means I reached the limits of the characters I built and I need to work on them some more.
I tend to get stuck if I had a character make a decision that wasn't true to who they are. I can't get them to make future decisions, cause they wouldn't have done that thing 3 chapters ago.
@@miaramck6746 THIS is me. LOL. I let my husband be the second pair of eyes to tell me if my characters act out of character at certain point. I actually cannot write myself out of the corner I pushed them into.
i'm going to rewatch this video like 10 times just for the pure validation alone 💗 i can't wait to try some of your suggestions and give myself permission to be as chaotic as i like!!
i wasn't sure what kind of writer i was but watching you describe the methodological pantser process, it was actually uncanny how clearly you described my process. just the other day i independently "discovered" the outline after you draft method and i was shocked that it's not just a weird thing i did. my process is absolute chaos and it can at times be so overwhelming. just like you said, sometimes i end up overwriting SO MUCH because i need to get it on the page before it can make sense to me. I've never been the type of writer who has character sheets or world building maps or anything like that, so i felt like maybe i wasn't doing my due diligence in developing my world and characters. I realize now that the over writing was me doing that. I'm really excited to implement some of these tips and maybe get back on the saddle after a long time stuck
Thank you so much for this. I was just recently diagnosed with ADHD and it explains a lot. It also explains why I am this type of writer. I have never been able to finish anything because of the chaos I incur along the way, and now I know that I should embrace it and not try to force myself in the boxes of other author’s processes. You have no idea how instrumental this video was in allowing me to see what I truly am as a writer, even though I’ve been writing 2/3 of my 33-year-old life. Seriously, thank you.
Same age, same situation. It's a strange dynamic, writing as a pathological procrastinator. And yet, when an idea has managed to force itself into focus and make me write a chapter or two, suddenly I can see all the things I need to do to make it better.
OMG yes - I felt like Erin could read my ADHD mind. We want to write by the seat of our pants, and there are so many ideas flooding in - if we don't have some sort of skeleton to pin the thing on, we'll never finish anything (especially without deadlines). Thank you Erin! And thank you Dylan! This post has been such a help and inspiration!!!
Perhaps we should start to call the Methodological Pantser the ADHD Writer instead ... Same thing here, ADHD, early thirties and, boy, that explains EVERYTHING! Even why some completely logical advice like taking one step in the process after the other never worked at all 😂
This is me 100%. I've spent years feeling guilty that I tend to jump around between drafting and editing instead of writing the first draft in one go like other authors seem to do. And it does feel chaotic! I'm currently stuck revising a scene that is taking me in a different direction and I'm feeling overwhelmed by it and putting it off. I like the tip that says to move on to another section of the story when you get stuck to keep moving forward. I'll try to do that more.
This very much how I operate as a creative with inattentive adhd. Thank you for all of this information. You have no idea how helpful and affirming it is. ✨☀️✨
ELLEN!!!!!!🎉 THIS IS SO GOOD! WOWZER! I knew I was a pantser and for 20 years through 3 completed novels I really wanted strategies to not only embrace my process but improve on methods and here you are doing just that. I feel affirmed and seen. I appreciate all the tips but EMBRACE THE CHAOS! Yes that's going on the wall in my writing space. I need help with structure so I'll read up on those elements. 1 tip I can offer is a fast draft pen to paper. When you get that idea bc we MP have many & some come fast & furious. If the idea keeps knocking a fast writing session can help get it out and allow me to move back to task at hand. If it has legs I'm able to return to it and create the story. Thank you for your channel. I'm learning and refining so much. Blessings
Never has a better resource existed for aspiring writers than your videos! Hearing your describe the exact pitfalls I often face and the resources you offer to over come those pitfalls, is so helpful. I’m incredibly grateful to have found your videos and can’t thank you enough!!
I feel like when I was young, I was definately an intuitive panster when it came to writing (whether my writing was good, well... I don't have a lot of the early stuff to really judge, honestly), but then I went to school and university and my natural process was kind of beat out of me. I'm not a methodological plotter, I've tried to force myself into that mindset for school over the years and it drained all the joy out of writing for me. But I don't feel like I have that intuition that was abundant from when I was a teenager engrosed in storytelling, either. So I think, this is where I end up. A lot of this advice resonates and hopefully can help me continue on with my novel. Thank you for sharing!
This is the first writing video that I've seen that's ever described anything even close to my style. Before, I could never really answer the question of "am I a pantser or a plotter?" but this video describes me to a T. And a ton of the advice that you're giving is stuff that I'm already doing XD and I'm definitely taking notes for the rest. I related so much to the part about draft numbers... I'm still technically on draft 1, about 70% through, even though I have edited the earlier chapters multiple times already, and have been working on this for over a year now. And I feel like when I do finish draft 1, my book's gonna be pretty damn close to query-able. And yet, everyone keeps shouting from rooftops that your first draft is supposed to suck and I'm like... 🤔 I don't think it will? So thank you, for shedding light on this type of methodology and convincing me that I'm not a weirdo! XD Also, I have ADHD, and I feel that everything you were describing about this process is so in-line with how our neurodivergent brains work 😅 I'd be curious to see how many other authors with ADHD fit into this category!
Im in the middle of writing my first novel and every time i write a section of it, i realize that plot point would be better if i updated this other thing i have been thinking about so my process is an endless cycle of writing, hitting a wall, thinking, refining my plan, and writing some more. I always thought i was just broken but this video showed me that a lot of people have the same tendencies and helped me to come to terms with how i write. I appreciate that so much.
This video was so freeing for me! I am definitely a methodological pantser. Your video describing the four types was like a revelation to me - I had always considered myself a methodological plotter with zero discipline… because I couldn’t stick to the outline and I was constantly, CONSTANTLY going back and reworking. I’ll be watching this video again and taking notes. Thank you so much for this! Been stuck on a scene the last few days and I needed this.
Oh my god I have never felt more seen re: my messy writing process. I assumed I wasn’t methodical because I’m intuitive about a lot of aspects (tone, atmosphere, theme, etc.), and my process is so chaotic. Something clicked into place for me watching this video, and I think it might have changed my relationship to writing permanently. It never occurred to me to just… create my own structure map 🤯 Every section of this video was exactly what I needed to hear. I can’t thank you enough for the work you do.
OMG, where were you all my life? hahaha I've been writing, plotting, editing my novel for almost 13 years going in this never ending cycle and feeling I'm not writing this thing right telling myself no method works for me. Totally going to follow your tips because they finally MAKE SENSE for my brain haha. Thank you, gonna binge your channel now.
This video watered my crops and saved my life all in the span of watching it. It felt wild to hear to say insights that directly mirror aspects of my process I've long worried were too chaotic or merely a disorganized way of doing things. Also as a writer with ADHD, it feels extra affirming to have someone put this care into creating a more concrete language for the kind of writer myself and many others are, when I've often felt like there's something wrong with me for not being able to "fix" my process. So thank you, thank you-- this video was incredible and I look forward to the others 🙏
This has got to be the single most helpful video on writing I’ve ever watched, and I really do mean that. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone 1) tell me to embrace the chaos and then go on to 2) give real, actionable methods to do so. Thank you so much!
Thank you, Ellen! For this video and for all you do. It was such a relief to hear that this stupid word count thing is just not for me, and that I am allowed to go back and forth, edit and write, follow my own lead AND lean on structural landmarks to not get totally lost. You've really helped me tremendously with this, self-blame can finally stop, and I can start to embrace this mess and have fun with it again. Thank you from all my heart!
Thank you so much for this video. I always struggled to complete projects when I made detailed outlines, but I could never even get a project going when I tried to dive in and 'just write'. Learning about progressive outlining and zero drafting helped a lot, but I didn't have terminology to describe my process until just now. It's so reassuring to have a professional editor acknowledge that not all of us write in a series of distinguishable drafts, or break down our work into distinct brainstorming/writing/editing stages. I can't wait to try out your tip about editing the outline before editing the manuscript! Cheers to embracing the chaos
I love this playlist. It has helped me a great deal. I can’t decide if I fall into the intuitive pantser or the methodical pantser. My process is very chaotic but I also know what works and what doesn’t without looking at the structure. Structure and plotting gives me a headache 😁 but I do take lots of notes as I go. I never write in a linear way. I tend to start with the scenes I see in my head and let the characters build themselves and the story around them. One major drawback is the length of time it takes me to find what doesn’t work and fix it because it involves a lot of rewriting
I think this is the best description ive seen of my own process! One thing i will day is, being as crippled by perfectionism that i am, if i stop to edit too soon after ive started writing, i will get stuck in a spiral of thinking my work is worthless cringe, but uf i just write for long enough, my brain kinda works through it and grts into an amazing flow. The only way ive found to get to that point is by forbiddiy myself from editing UNTIL i get there. Then i can churn out so much stuff and i can go back and forth and think 'oh, no, this works so much better than that other way!'.
I REALLY resonate with this mythological pantser- writing type! But I have ADHD and possibly high functioning autism, and they are battling every day. I wrote this crossworlds soft fantasy romance 10 years ago, LOVED writing it without any outlining, but since then i have educated myself and now have possibly 20 versions of it, and I can't choose which is better! I feel like my ADHD side just writes and writes and comes up with multiple amazing versions all the time, but I can't decide on a specific theme or philosophical question because my autism-side want it to be perfect! And hates the jumping mess my ADHD is making :) This makes me realise that my process is okay, THANK you Ellen. I already have more confidence since watching this (3 times now!) My visual brain is very active, so its hard to find the image I think is better, I really wish that someone just told me "THIS is best because of your theme" or something like that 😖
This makes me feel so validated xD. Thank you for this! My writing process is such a chaotic mess with the plotting, editing, and writing all at once that sometimes I can't even wrap my head around what I'm doing. You also perfectly summarize my experience with beta readers and critique partners, as well as the thing with losing steam. I think this process is looked down upon in the writing community because there are all these ideas floating around of what the process of writing a book "should look like", which is very much an A B C kind of thing; draft 1, draft 2, edit etc. I found myself often frustrated with myself because I don't quite fit that mold, and it's often made me question whether I was a "real writer". So thank you! And welcome back
As someone who has tried writing one book then succeeded in (currently) writing another one, all this info puts it into perspective why one flopped and I continued on with the second project. Structure to a degree helps me stay centered and the flow of creating gets me to walk down the path. Chaotic is perfect word to describe this to someone who is on the outside looking in. My wife is boggled with the amount of random tidbits and sheets of thoughts I have. I think going forward, I’ll lean into the method more of embracing structure then using that to inform my writing. Super helpful!
Watching this video series - especially this specific video - has been an uncanny and invigorating experience. I've never heard the reality of my writing "process" (lol) so flawlessly described - both the good, and the not so good aspects of it. Your insights are truly helpful, and I've hung on every word. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. One note I would add for any other Methodological Pantsers out there looking for insights: write 1000 new words a day. Interestingly, Ellen sort of gets at this when she talks about how MPs do our best work when looking at something we've already "gotten on the page". She really hit it on the head when talking about how MPs figure things out by the act of writing; as such, I think my advice here doesn't go counter to anything she says in the video, but rather supplements it. MPs need something to work *on* - an area that we can easily fall short on, precisely because we will just as happily plug and play our "creative summaries" or "structural documents" to our hearts' content. Unfortunately, no book awaits us as the end of that tunnel - just really, really good outlines. Try and generate 1000 words a day, and think of it almost as a warm-up exercise. (Yes, really.) You may be shocked at how energized you are to get back in the document after doing so. Some days I'll do 500 words in the morning, 500 words in the evening, and then at night once everyone is asleep I get in there and start embracing the Chaos. Other days, it's 1000 words in the morning. Either way, generating new content, bit by bit, is critical as a first step. Once that content is generated, I think everything else in this video is 10/10 accurate. (I learned 2-3 new tricks that I'm totally gonna try.) Again. Big thank you to Ellen for this really fantastic video. Wow.
Honestly, I can’t tell you how helpful I find your videos and the way you explain things. I find myself nodding along to what you say, which I never notice myself doing for others. Your videos are brimming with immensely useful information! The value I’m getting from your channel is incredible, so thank you, thank you, thank you!
I felt so seen watching this video! Im majoring in creative writing at uni and this video really helped me to allow myself to just sink into my process instead of trying to resist it and force myself into a "should" box. lol. I found your advice around needing to understand a structural methodology to get the most out of your natural inclination toward "methodological panster" as a writer is 100% accurate. Once i made it my mission to dive into structural methodologies - it really free'd up my creative "pantster" side! Interestingly, I have actually found more valuable learning on structure via youtube creators such as yourself - than my second year uni classes provide thus far - which is pretty grim considering the cost of the education... but i digress. Thank you so much for your contribution on this platform. As always, your delivery and content is always of a superior quality. We appreciate you so much :)
I had always thought I was a plotter, but watching your author type video, I realized that I'm a pantser who wants to plot. I totally plot a scene right before I write, but I may not even follow that, because it just gives me an idea before I start writing. After I write the scene, I go back and revise my scene outline and I may even go change my entire outline. This is so helpful, thanks!
You’ve nailed it exactly. I have also never had anyone else describe my experience with beta readers. Using them ruined my second novel and I should have just stuck to my own vision and not gotten the peanut gallery involved.
The point starting at 8:20 is literally changing my life as I listen to it. All those abandoned drafts… it just makes so much _sense_ now. Master has given Dobby a sock!
This is so me 😭 I was nodding my head at every point/tip you gave and talked about. That was what I was struggling with and also figured out what was wrong. Point 10:50 Yes! I learned this through Nanowrimo. It didn't work for me anymore. I always thought I was the odd one for not using word count in the first draft stage anymore. 13:00 Save the Cat didn't appeal to me but the 7 point Structure did with a combination with the 3 Act Structure. So yes! it's okay to mix it up a little. 15:20 Wish I learned this earlier 23:50 I agree I did this with my current novel and it send me into a spiral of not wanting to write anymore and create more self doubt. Thank you for this video I will be embracing the chaos knowing I'm not alone ❤😊
I was 100% certain I was some kind of plotter because I LOVE stuff like Save the Cat and researching enneagrams for my characters, and using software like Scrivener and dropping scenes onto timelines to structure things. But, nope! This is so much me you might as well have installed a spy program into my scrivener program lol. Everything in this is exactly how I write, even including losing steam at about 20-50% completion. I'm going to look into the 27 chapter method, and write myself a note to embrace the bunny hopping from one task to another as a helpful method to keep progress going.
I LOVE this!! Thank you for this video; I had never encountered the idea of a “Methodological Pantser” and it feels like a match for how I work- I often feel that I’m not organized enough to be a Plotter, but not intuitive enough to be a Pantser, and it can be really discouraging- I really appreciate that so much of this video goes against a lot of really common writing advice; it feels so encouraging to hear that there’s a different way, and that you’re not doing it “wrong” to be more organic to how you naturally work. Thanks so much!
Absolutely brilliant video. You mentioned finding a method with more points. I hate Saves The Cat. I found Katytastic's 27-chapter structure so much more useful. I added Brandon Sanderson's character notes. I added scene checklists from another writer whose name I forget now. When I get stuck, I like to have a checklist to think about where to go, what I need to include in the setting, a reminder of character motivation. I discovery-write but like to have something on hand as a guide.
Thank you. I feel like I gain a little more understanding and confidence with each rewatch of this series. I start every story as a Intuitive Pantser, and then I start the next run through of the draft (whatever state it is in) as a Methodological Pantser. And then I make a more detailed plan, mark what isn't working, and add more structure on the next draft after that. I don't know if I will ever reach a Methodological Plotter, as outlines make me twitch, but a good bullet list and a hitlist of what I need to bring out has been working for me. I do like structure once I have my footing in the story, but sometimes it takes forever to find it. Being an artist, Painter (AKA spastic mess) and a Printmaker (kinda anal about some things), for most of my life there are some habits that are hard to break but if something is holding me back it has to go. Again thanks for this series. I've gotten a lot out of it and again, as I mentioned in another video, your understanding of the different types of creative brains and how each are valid and can work has been a great help. It's really a unique talent you have. And rare with Author help videos.
Wow, not only did you just describe my entire creative process - heavy on the chaos, thank you very much - but you gave good, creative, and actionable suggestions for working within that chaos. Thank you thank you thank you. I'm going to create a sign for the wall above my monitors that says. "Embrace the Chaos!"
I feel seen. The moving from task to task tip really resonates with me. I love structure but my outlines are generally sparse, tent pole I think you said. But if I’m struggling with plotting I’ll jump to a scene and start writing which often generates a number of ideas of where to go. Or I’ll work on a character profile which generates ideas too. I love your content.
Oh my god, you SAW me with this video. Thank you so much for your insightful advice. It's so much better, more tailored and helpful that anything else I've ever seen and I can really see some of these tips adding value to my process.
I feel so seen in this video. I do think I lean very heavily into a Methodological Pantser. I do agree that our process is chaotic and we like to write halfway, go back and read/edit. Learning structure tips is very useful so that I know where to steer my ideas. I do outline but the final product almost always end up different. I often come up with better ideas in the middle of writing, and have to re-outline. All your tips are very true and helpful and has assured me to embrace my chaotic writing process. Thank you so much.
Hi Ellen, thanks for this video. I definitely feel like a Methodological Pantser. I'm a living example of the warning you gave during the section on running out of steam. I've jumped from book to book, idea to idea, for YEARS. Hoping I can use this information to develop a process that works for me. Thanks again!
Currently, I've been awake for more than 24 hours because I started writing at 1am and when I looked up it was 7am (which is a fairly regular occurrence when I sit down to write, sadly), but it was working out for me, so I kept going. Then it stopped working at about 8am, so I started re-reading my entire draft from the beginning, editing minor grammar bits for reading flow and adding/streamlining science in/into certain sentences,. Every time I near the end of a chapter, I skip forward and start adding things closer to the end (I write in fairly chronological order). I finally stopped about three or four hours ago, went to TH-cam, and I see this. Hah. Thank you so much for this accurate analysis of my writing habits. More backstory: I've been trying to write this same story for more than ten years, starting out when I was younger with the vague concept of "I want to write a cool scifi story" until it blossomed into an entire soul-devouring saga that my inner muse will not allow me to turn away from, but I kept throwing out draft after draft because I rush ahead in a binge-session and fumble the plot; my characters do something not-true-to-form, I fall into a cliche, my entire plot gets derailed or I explain something way too technically just because I think it's cool; you name it, I've thrown a draft out because of it, but I keep doing science/physics research the entire time regardless, and I only want to write it more. My research on plot-crafting sinks in a bit, but I couldn't tell you what I'm doing while I'm doing it, or why it worked once I'm done. Now, I've finally got a draft that I'm content with editing->writing->plotting->etc while I write, without wanting to rip my eyes out, and I'm fairly certain that's because I've been working on essentially this same plot for more than 10 years, and I've formulated an intuitive sense of what it means for me to screw something up, plus a vague idea of what it looks like when I do something right. When I feel it going wrong, I put it down - for a week or more, if I have to - and come back later, when I think I know what's going to happen next (I'm always wrong, and the end-result always surprises me once I write my first good paragraph after a few thrown-out pages. This current draft is nothing like my original plan. It's better). Ultimately, the best help for me has been to learn that it's okay to make mistakes. I literally can't know what I'm doing right or wrong until the words have landed on the page. And to not be afraid of the process. If I don't sit down and waste my time on those failed words, then I'll never get the opportunity to mold those bad ideas like clay until they make sense. I've also learned to not re-read my old-old drafts for inspiration, because ultimately, they are examples of what did not work. I do not need to keep those ideas around. I remember what I liked about them, and that's enough. (I thank Steven King for that tip.) BUT I NEVER DELETE MY TRASH-FILES!
Thank you for this video! I've always considered myself a 'plotter' when looking at the pantser/plotter comparisons because I like structure, but once you explained the methodological vs intuitive angle as well, I really recognized myself in these descriptions of methodological pantser. I recognize the chaos 😅So this advice was really useful. I've just started a longer writing project and so it's encouraging to see other people have a similiar style and how to work with it, lots of tangible advice in this! Fantastic video!
This video was great for me. Thank you! From someone who has devoured everything good that I can find on TH-cam - you really seem to know your stuff. From the info and advice i've been able to find, this (by far) captured some of the main things i've been struggling to find good info about.
This is very useful. I never thought I could be abything methodological and I'm a half'n'half pantser/plotter but the way you describe this type fits me very well. Which probably means I should learn more abouth methodology. I have pretty good intuition on small scale, like scenes, small arcs or series with a small number of installments, but I tend to get lost in the long run, so maybe methodology can help me there. As for plotting/editing/writing - yes, these things are completely indivisible for me. I start every session with editing the previous scene or two and more often than not this also gives me plotting ideas. Sometimes I plot right in the middle of writing. A character has to respond to something another character said and in that moment I see a completely new plot idea. I've never had a problem with this approach and I don't think it makes me less qualified as a writer). It really helped when I stopped being afraid that I won't be able to solve the problems that I create because from experience I know I can. Sometimes it takes scratching half a book, but I still can )))) For anyone out there who is like me, I can reassure them that using this approach I have completed several novel-sized stories which I'm really proud of.
I always assumed I was a pure architect type of writer. Recently I started playing around with this type and its working so much better, I've never been happy with my writing before and I have been the past few months. Thank you for all your content 🙏
I've also found that when I get stuck the best thing I can do is either plot or edit my precious chapters. That gets me rolling again within a couple days.
Thank you so much for this! I have felt pretty stuck these past few weeks, and your words have helped me a lot. Some of it is not knowing how to get from the beginning into the middle (and your other videos are really helpful there, too!), some is probably burnout since I've written a LOT this year. That said, I do find word count extremely motivating, but I don't take away any words I have already written from my tracker, even if I take words off my manuscript, if that makes sense. But yes, inspiration is never enough. I've been attending the London Writers' Salon's Writers' Hours a lot because they basically give you supervised butt in chair time for free.
Almost everything you described fits me! I’ve tried completely pantsing and I normally end up overwriting and my pacing is slowwww. For some reason I go way too in depth, and end up with a lot of rambling in the draft, lol. I’ve also tried to force myself into being a plotter, and having a rigid outline for a story. Every single time I get bored by the end of the first act. What I’ve found works best is what you were describing…basically I do a “word vomit” initial concept before I start writing. Then I make a slightly more structured outline as I go. So I’ll outline the prologue and chapter one, write that. Afterward I’ll add a chapter two to the outline and then write that, etc. For the most part, it seems to be my sweet spot. Just enough plotting with a lot of freedom to still pants when I need to.
Pantser?? That's such a loaded term lol. Feels like it has a lot of condescension baked into it. But then "discovery writer" also has a certain degree of arrogance. "I don't need to plan, I'll just write myself into a corner!" But yeah, as a semi-methodical pantser, I really appreciate this vid. :)
There is no term that I really like either. They all seem loaded or awkward for one reason or another. "Pantser" seems most widely used so I went with that. So glad you like the video!
I was going to make this comment, too. I feel like 'discovery writer' is more like your mind has the story and meaning deep down, and writing is a way some people uncover the subconscious. Seat-of-the-pants, 'I'll just use my judgment as I go', comes across to me like there's no deep rhyme or reason (even though I guess the judgment and experience is also coming from subconscious plans/dreams/desires)
... I almost can't believe how much this describes me lol ... Some of this I've already learned about myself (I'm 2 years into my first book lol), but a lot of these ideas are totally new and I think could be really helpful! Thank you :)
I wrote my first book as a methodical pantser, and I arrived at so many of the concepts you mentioned as I went along, that I should feel this is what I am. Before writing the second book, during editing, I moved towards planning though. One thing I'd add about outlining is, it really helps to see it in front of your eyes, and so, I put each chapter section on a separate post-it note. It should be on the wall, it's on a table instead, but still - super helpful. Thank you for creating this platform, all the content!
Thank you thank you thank you! I found the closest to my writing type for sure. And if that wasn't enough, I now have extra tools to wrangle this complicated style/process of mine. Great stuff!
Someone finally understands!!! I spent the last 3 years learning most of this the hard way, and a bit more just watching this video. Wish I had this back then! (Though it might not have helped because I was *convinced* I was an outliner. I was wrong)
I have a copywriting business (write fiction for fun and hopefully profit one day) and I've always tried to write without editing. You know, because "they" said to,! When I finally gave up the idea, and decided to embrace my inner editor and edit as I go it's made writing so much more fun (as long as I like the subect, lol)
Pure gold. I am SOO glad you are back! It’s because of you that I realized just this last year I was a pantser trying to write novels as a plotter 🙊 I can’t wait to see the intuitive pantser video now so I can compare the two. I feel I fall somewhere in the middle between intuitive and methodological, but not sure where yet!
I've been going through a bunch of your videos now that I'm deep in a writing project and trying to keep my brain on track even when I'm not actively writing, and I just wanna say it's so cool watching you gradually upgrade your setup and personal style as you grew on youtube. Been following you for a while and I love getting to see artists grow.
I would say I'm more of an intuitive pantser, but I've found I can save myself a lot of work later by starting the book twice. I start the first time with no idea who my characters are or what their story will be. Once I've gotten to about the 10k word mark, I find the characters and find their arc, I scrap that 10k and start over from the beginning. My plot is pantsed, but my character arcs are more methodological.
Thank you so much. I saw your first video about the four types yesterday. I kept thinking I was doing plotting and pantsing wrong and wondering WHAT was wrong with me. I couldn't fill an entire outline, and even though I had bare bones one with a knowledge of where I was going, I would often change whatever specifics I had plotted as I wrote. I felt my character leading me in another direction, or I'd be writing along and go, 'huh, this happens' and it wasn't in the outline. Then I'd have to go back and change my outline. I like to do what I call loop editing, going back and editing a bit and then moving on with writing. And, of course, I was told not to edit while I write. This video validates that my writing style is legit, and I can focus on what I need to do instead of thinking I need to figure out how to outline better and more fully or trust, throwing any idea of an outline out the window. Thank you
Validation from the right source can be liberating. I love that you will now switch the focus of your energy now from fixing a problem that turned out not to be a problem, but instead a viable option to continue forward. That’s powerful! Good luck to you.
Fantastic video, Ellen! In the future, would you consider creating a video where you give techniques on how to move from that 20% point of resistance? Even though it may be especially true for this type of writer, I've heard just about every type run out of steam around this mark, and wanted to know if you could share specific strategies, by type, to push beyond it. Thanks! ❤
That’s a great idea, it took me a while to figure this out as well. I’m an intuitive pantser, so I’m not sure if this applies for the methodological type, but when I run out of steam I need a challenge. It can either be that the book isn’t challenging enough for me to continue with or it can mean that I need to build in some complexity to make sure I keep myself interested and entertained and every time I do this it works. I’ve already finished several novels that way.
If you're like me, when you get stuck or discouraged, it helps to jump around in the story, honestly. Go forwards or backwards in the timeline (or within the characters stories, including back stories or their dreams for the future). You may not use it, but its not boring, keeps you writing in the story, and it helps with character arcs and eventual plot (I hope).
I'm interested in what Ellen has to say about this 20% point of resistance too! As a methodological pantser, I hit some kind of resistance or wall very frequently, and it seems to be different in nature every time. I think it's because I'm trying to make something without the right ingredients - maybe I'm trying to plot it out too far, and I can't keep going with it until I've written some scenes and gotten a better feel for the characters. If I'm writing a scene and it trails off, maybe I need to clarify what it's doing for my plot, and I can't really finish until I know that. At other times, input like a video on plot structure or character arcs will make something about my own story click, giving me new energy to throw at it. If I don't recognise that what I'm trying to do isn't working and change it up, I'll stay at the stuck point indefinitely.
I thought I was a plotter, but following the mega detailed outline (I wrote freaking scripts to add prose later and a six page step by step worksheet) to a tee had a chokehold on my creativity and I lost all motivation to write. I also found that my prose was much prettier when I was younger and just winged it. Will definitely try this method out!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! -- You have described me in every way. I can now embrace what I am and how I work. You have said everything I've felt about writing. I'm glad you have put it in such a concise way. Some people like to write fast and not stop and research. I have to stop and do lots of different things (research, edit, structural analysis, word choice, etc.) throughout my first draft. And I find my best ideas come while I'm writing, after some writing (especially backstory) and character analysis and short summary my hook, my midpoint and the ending, although the ending sometimes change. Structure is something I depend on, but within that structure I'm a pantser. And like you said, I don't have number drafts. I'm just always working on a book. I plan to watch this video several times when writing.
I have a ton of writing books and Larry Brooks is the best for explaining the mechanics. However, for this kind of writer and perhaps every new writer, they will benefit from Deb Dixon's book, GMC, Goal, Motivation & Conflict. Its an easy read that gets to the point with good examples from movies. Less detailed than Brooks but Dixon gets down to the core items every writer needs. to grasp.
Thank you! I'm a methodological pantser, and a lot of your tips for writing were things I did. I've been struggling with editing my first novel, and I really appreciate your advice. I'll be trying them out. One thing I found that worked for me was going back and doing some editing as I wrote my draft, but also incorporating research into the process. It gave me a great deal of excitement as I wrote, seeing the story unfold as I was writing. I wanted to see what would happen next, as if I was reading a novel.
This is such a great video-thank you!! As both a writer and an editor, knowing these types has been super helpful and I’m really excited for the other breakdowns. I’m a methodological pantser, and yes the process is very chaotic lol. Something I’ve found really helpful though is building a strong foundation for my main characters and world (and maybe the plot a little too) so that when I do start writing, I have a good grasp of who the story involves and what external elements may come into play. For characters, I’ll write a summary of their backstory and identify their goals, strengths, and flaws. For the world, this gets a bit trickier, but I’ll usually identify some important locations I’d like to be involved, the economic/political states of these locations, any important factions of people and their beliefs, and how the magic works since I write fantasy. After that, I let the characters loose and just see what happens!
I do this too for characters and worldbuilding! I feel like I’m making grab bags of interesting traits and details that I can easily pull from while I’m writing.
Thank you for this validation! I only recently accepted that I can't outline and that I only know my story through writing it. The idea that I'm not alone in running out of steam at 60% is allowing me to embrace the chaos and just write without inspiration. It works! I am stunned by how my story organically grows and pieces connect if I just allow myself to follow my own natural process.
I handle the 'throw things away' bit by keeping a 'Book of Orphaned Ideas.' Any time an idea isn't working, I write it in that book. If I find a point in the story where it'd fit, I just copy it back in. If there's nowhere it fits, I have it for later. If I get stuck on another story, I just go through the orphaned ideas and can sometimes find something that solves my block. It helps avoid feeling like I wasted the time of writing it out, since it can be used later.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
00:01 The four writer types
02:10 The methodological pantser
02:45 Treat your process as fluid and flexible
04:05 Refine your idea before writing the first draft
05:30 Plot in advance only if it helps you
08:15 Expect to run out of steam in the first draft
09:50 Start editing as soon as you are ready
10:50 Avoid using wordcount as a measure of success
12:10 Don't wait for inspiration
13:00 Try rigid story structure systems
27 chapter method
Save the cat/Save the cat writes a novel
Larry Brooks Story Engineering
15:20 Make your own structural guide, use your own terminology
17:40 Outline as you write (or at least before you edit)
18:45 Make edits in the outline first
19:55 Don't be afraid to throw things away
20:45 Rate your scenes - scene structure, integration into the plot
23:50 Leave beta readers to the very end
25:15 Doing something (anything) is better than getting stuck
26:55 Embrace the chaos
Thank you so much! I was going to try to get the timestamps up later today, but I'm helping my neighbor move. I appreciate your work!
Thanks bro
I really like all these tips, especially the last one
I keep a trash file for every story that I write. Everything that I write for a story that I later decide to get rid of goes into the trash file. DO NOT DELETE THIS FILE. This trash file makes it a lot easier for me, psychologically, to delete stuff that is not working because I'm not really getting rid of it, I'm saving it for later. One of the benefits of a trash file is that I often find that the idea that I discarded from the first quarter of the book can be rewritten and used in the third or fourth quarter of the story or may even serve as the seed for another story completely. I might even end up using it in the first quarter of the story after all when I rewrite some other introductory scenes because they weren't working as originally written. I also love the scene rating idea, I will start using it immediately.
A trash file is great, and if you can use those scenes later on that is always an awesome feeling!
I have the same process! It's usually a txt called "TO ERASE". Psst, I never erase it. XD
I have a Scrivener project called "a collection of random ideas". When I had to toss a couple ideas from my current story, I moved the writing I did for those / notes into that project for future story.
i call mine the lost and found bin 😅
Oh, I like this. This sounds exactly like what I need. I don't like to delete stuff when I'm editing, and usually find convoluted reasons to keep sections that don't really have a purpose. But this trash file idea is brilliant
Wow. THANK YOU! I have never had someone describe the chaotic "process" of how I feel I write. I'm a bit shocked. You've perfectly described both my deep, abiding respect for "structure" (it IS the key to a great story) and my high frustration at being unable to follow the constant "rules" about how I "should" be doing something and the story "should be" progressing in an outline (which I can never do). I have to SEE the story in order to organize it, but I can't see where the story is going until a scene is written and it feels like something is "revealed" (that I didn't anticipate or plan), and once that happens I then need to go back, edit, fill in and shape the previous writing to support the revelation I just discovered. I feel as if I am constantly jumping back and forth. I had no idea this was even a "method" or anything other than "dabbling" at writing. It just feels messy and disorganized and (at times) overwhelming because I *LIKE* structure and organization. I WANT structure and order. Thank you for letting me know that others feel this dichotomy and have worked successfully within it.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I completely understand what you mean about something being "revealed" about a scene after writing it. That's a great explanation.
"Story is Structure." William Goldman, author of The Princess Bride.
As a methodological pantser, I totally understand this! Attempting to outline before writing has always been a nightmare for me and doesn't work for me. Once I get going, though, I often know what will happen two chapters ahead and was even able to see the ending of my novel--just not everything that would happen along the way.
@@mjjulian72 same. When I try to outline, it feels forced and "empty" and I know it's going to change drastically, anyway, so it also feels useless and overly fussy. I'm much better at "pantsing" but I still CRAVE structure. Because when I'm overwhelmed with the chaos, and worry that there is no structure, then I think all I have is a bunch of random scenes. It's so comforting to hear someone give tips on how to handle what I've been trying to assimilate.
You are describing my experience exactly! I need to write the story to know the story.
My biggest tip, as redundant as it may sound, is that if you write/think in this way you have to remind yourself from time to time that you are that way. When you’re steam rolling through a chapter or scene and come to a screeching haunt, just take the as a cue to do some revising or spell check even. When I go back a little, it usually gives me a little start up juice to get back on the train with.
Seemingly redundant but so helpful. Without this methodology, I tend to write at a snail's pace. When I embrace it, I'll hit a good rhythm. Then, around 700 words in, it's like my brain runs out of battery and just stops working which can be incredibly frustrating. I remind myself to either pick up another approach (editing, outline, etc.) or just walk away from it. I panic that I'm failing. Then, eventually, the inspiration comes back. 🤷♀️
I take "running out of steam" as a sign that whatever I planned doesn't make sense or isn't the most interesting way for that change to take place. I usually take a few days to think over what the character would do and think of plenty of interesting ways it could happen. This always results in a much more exciting finished draft.
Sorry for the word choice but holy shit, this might be the first time I feel really seen by a writing advice. Especially the last two points really hit home, because I always tend to cling to ideas how the process should look like and then I get frustrated because I can't seem to figure out how to make it work for me.
I long knew about the plotter-pantser continuum and always thought I'm a plotter, but somehow I struggled a lot with having to outline everything, and when I'd start writing I would change directions a lot anyways and much of the outline would become useless, making me give up - basically as predicted in this video - somewhere after the 20% mark. At the same time, if I wouldn't outline properly I wasn't even able to start writing anything at all. The additional differentiation between intuitive and methodological really solves the puzzle for me. Every point seems to answer so many questions for me, it's crazy how accurate this is. You must be some kind of personality genius lol. I'm not actively writing at the moment but I marked this video and will definitely come back to it. Thanks a lot.
I just discovered I'm not the plotter I thought I was lol. Honestly you're by far one of the must helpful channels for writing I've come across 💯🙏🏻
Wow, thank you!
I 100% agree.
I'm this type and this was my experience too. I like structures and thought then I must be a plotter? Nope! However hard I try, I lose steam with plotting. I thought I was just a bad plotter before realizing through talking to other pantsers that plotting just doesn't work for me. These four types videos have been so helpful
I don't know If you'll ever read this but thank you so much, you've just changed my life. This is me!
I've never heard someone discribe my chaotic writing method like that. I've always loved studying structure, it gives me a lot of ideas, but I hate the rigid system of plotters. I love structure, but I hate plotting? Well, yes. I also have to edit as I go, I can't understand my story if I don't. And I jump in the story a lot. I'm a mess, thanks for saying that's ok. And the tips are amazing!!! Hugs. Have a beautiful life 😭❤️
I'm so glad you found this video helpful! Editing as you go to understand the story is a great method and totally necessary for this type. Hugs back to you!
As someone who's neurodivergent, in the past I've had a habit of berating myself for not adhering to what I believed was a "normal" writing process.I've always found it difficult to articulate what i was doing and so on the outside it kind of seemed jumpy or erratic, rather than just a process that I used. I love the phrase 'embrace the chaos' and I honestly cannot describe how much this video resonated with me. Thank you so much!
Me too I’m exactly the same way
I think that Dean Wesley Smith is an intuitive pantser, but that said, in his book Writing Into the Dark, he talks about "cycling".
He writes about 500 or so words, then when he gets stuck, he goes back over his writing, makes changes, and then pushes ahead another 500 or so, etc. It's a good process, but I now see that I need the methodology; I'm not intuitive, but can incorporate bits and pieces of writing advice wherever I find it. Instinctually, I'm finding what works best for me. The hardest thing - but also the best thing - is learning to embrace your unique writing style and run with it! ;-)
I think this is a perfect description of what plantsers/plotsers are. We are Methodological Pantsers.
A while back I came across the "Torch Method" where I plan there next 5-10 scenes, write, then plan again. This is after I have a skeletal summary of the novel. You describe all that so perfectly in this video. Thank you so much.
I'm glad I stayed subscribed to you when you were on a break because your channel is a gold mine.
Thank you! You just described the way I write pretty much to a T (or, as much as a chaotic process can be described.) I've always assumed I was a plotter, because I compile tons of notes, summaries, bios, etc. before actually writing anything. But descriptions of either plotter type never really seemed to fit. So much of this does. I tend to go back and forth between plotting/summarizing and actual writing, and half the time the actual writing expands - or alters - what I'd plotted or summarized. And going back and revising sections already written seems natural, even if I'm not done writing the rest yet.
I'm this! But I do want to say that I'm noticing a lot of people in the comments saying they "have to" plot but hate it, but I wanted to say that some of us love to plot. That is, yes, my process requires the combination of plotting and pantsing, but I don't think of this as a negative, because I like both sides so much. I love getting super technical and nitty gritty when plotting, and I love pushing everything side, and forgetting it all when I need to pants. I don't feel burdened by any part of the process, so just putting that out there, that for me, this is a process that is 100% enjoyable from beginning to end.
That's awesome! Yes, the plotting process can be a ton of fun and very playful and exhilarating, especially if you don't take it too seriously. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I can relate to this. I enjoy and embrace both aspects of the story and by having the flexibility to embrace both, the process feels more engaging.
I give myself 5 months to write around 10k words and almost every time, i daydream about the chapter for 4 months and then the last month i write like a maniac. It works so well for me. Love this series so much! I’ve gotten so many good ideas from you and from reading the comments
I really needed this video today. I'm nearly 90,000 words into my fantasy novel, and I was convinced, because of a lot of writing advice I had heard, that I needed to push through and finish the book before editing or I would never get it done. But at this point I have so many developmental edits to make with what I've already written that pushing through to write the end feels off base because all the things I want to change will most likely change the way the ending unfolds. I have been stuck in this spot for over a month but finally gave myself permission to start back at the beginning with my new vision, and I have been beating myself up about it. So thank you, for telling me it's okay to do that. I don't want to be a methodological pantser, but I guess these are the pants I was dealt. 😂 This video was full of great advice and I feel seen. ❤ Thank you.
Thank you so much! As a methodological pantser I’ve been waiting for this one for what feels like forever! Many of the strategies you mentioned came to me naturally. One of the things I figured out: because I write character based stories, getting stuck usually means I reached the limits of the characters I built and I need to work on them some more.
I tend to get stuck if I had a character make a decision that wasn't true to who they are. I can't get them to make future decisions, cause they wouldn't have done that thing 3 chapters ago.
@@miaramck6746 THIS is me. LOL. I let my husband be the second pair of eyes to tell me if my characters act out of character at certain point. I actually cannot write myself out of the corner I pushed them into.
i'm going to rewatch this video like 10 times just for the pure validation alone 💗 i can't wait to try some of your suggestions and give myself permission to be as chaotic as i like!!
I know, right?
i wasn't sure what kind of writer i was but watching you describe the methodological pantser process, it was actually uncanny how clearly you described my process. just the other day i independently "discovered" the outline after you draft method and i was shocked that it's not just a weird thing i did. my process is absolute chaos and it can at times be so overwhelming. just like you said, sometimes i end up overwriting SO MUCH because i need to get it on the page before it can make sense to me. I've never been the type of writer who has character sheets or world building maps or anything like that, so i felt like maybe i wasn't doing my due diligence in developing my world and characters. I realize now that the over writing was me doing that.
I'm really excited to implement some of these tips and maybe get back on the saddle after a long time stuck
Thank you so much for this. I was just recently diagnosed with ADHD and it explains a lot. It also explains why I am this type of writer. I have never been able to finish anything because of the chaos I incur along the way, and now I know that I should embrace it and not try to force myself in the boxes of other author’s processes. You have no idea how instrumental this video was in allowing me to see what I truly am as a writer, even though I’ve been writing 2/3 of my 33-year-old life. Seriously, thank you.
I'm so glad to hear that!
Same age, same situation. It's a strange dynamic, writing as a pathological procrastinator. And yet, when an idea has managed to force itself into focus and make me write a chapter or two, suddenly I can see all the things I need to do to make it better.
OMG yes - I felt like Erin could read my ADHD mind. We want to write by the seat of our pants, and there are so many ideas flooding in - if we don't have some sort of skeleton to pin the thing on, we'll never finish anything (especially without deadlines). Thank you Erin! And thank you Dylan! This post has been such a help and inspiration!!!
Jesus, I'm in the same boat. This vid actually brought me to tears toward the end, in a good, cathartic way.
Perhaps we should start to call the Methodological Pantser the ADHD Writer instead ... Same thing here, ADHD, early thirties and, boy, that explains EVERYTHING! Even why some completely logical advice like taking one step in the process after the other never worked at all 😂
This is me 100%. I've spent years feeling guilty that I tend to jump around between drafting and editing instead of writing the first draft in one go like other authors seem to do. And it does feel chaotic! I'm currently stuck revising a scene that is taking me in a different direction and I'm feeling overwhelmed by it and putting it off. I like the tip that says to move on to another section of the story when you get stuck to keep moving forward. I'll try to do that more.
This very much how I operate as a creative with inattentive adhd.
Thank you for all of this information. You have no idea how helpful and affirming it is. ✨☀️✨
ELLEN!!!!!!🎉 THIS IS SO GOOD! WOWZER! I knew I was a pantser and for 20 years through 3 completed novels I really wanted strategies to not only embrace my process but improve on methods and here you are doing just that. I feel affirmed and seen. I appreciate all the tips but EMBRACE THE CHAOS! Yes that's going on the wall in my writing space. I need help with structure so I'll read up on those elements. 1 tip I can offer is a fast draft pen to paper. When you get that idea bc we MP have many & some come fast & furious. If the idea keeps knocking a fast writing session can help get it out and allow me to move back to task at hand. If it has legs I'm able to return to it and create the story. Thank you for your channel. I'm learning and refining so much. Blessings
Never has a better resource existed for aspiring writers than your videos! Hearing your describe the exact pitfalls I often face and the resources you offer to over come those pitfalls, is so helpful. I’m incredibly grateful to have found your videos and can’t thank you enough!!
Wow, thank you! I'm so happy to help!
I feel like when I was young, I was definately an intuitive panster when it came to writing (whether my writing was good, well... I don't have a lot of the early stuff to really judge, honestly), but then I went to school and university and my natural process was kind of beat out of me. I'm not a methodological plotter, I've tried to force myself into that mindset for school over the years and it drained all the joy out of writing for me. But I don't feel like I have that intuition that was abundant from when I was a teenager engrosed in storytelling, either. So I think, this is where I end up. A lot of this advice resonates and hopefully can help me continue on with my novel. Thank you for sharing!
This is the first writing video that I've seen that's ever described anything even close to my style. Before, I could never really answer the question of "am I a pantser or a plotter?" but this video describes me to a T. And a ton of the advice that you're giving is stuff that I'm already doing XD and I'm definitely taking notes for the rest.
I related so much to the part about draft numbers... I'm still technically on draft 1, about 70% through, even though I have edited the earlier chapters multiple times already, and have been working on this for over a year now. And I feel like when I do finish draft 1, my book's gonna be pretty damn close to query-able. And yet, everyone keeps shouting from rooftops that your first draft is supposed to suck and I'm like... 🤔 I don't think it will?
So thank you, for shedding light on this type of methodology and convincing me that I'm not a weirdo! XD
Also, I have ADHD, and I feel that everything you were describing about this process is so in-line with how our neurodivergent brains work 😅 I'd be curious to see how many other authors with ADHD fit into this category!
Im in the middle of writing my first novel and every time i write a section of it, i realize that plot point would be better if i updated this other thing i have been thinking about so my process is an endless cycle of writing, hitting a wall, thinking, refining my plan, and writing some more. I always thought i was just broken but this video showed me that a lot of people have the same tendencies and helped me to come to terms with how i write. I appreciate that so much.
This video was so freeing for me! I am definitely a methodological pantser. Your video describing the four types was like a revelation to me - I had always considered myself a methodological plotter with zero discipline… because I couldn’t stick to the outline and I was constantly, CONSTANTLY going back and reworking.
I’ll be watching this video again and taking notes. Thank you so much for this! Been stuck on a scene the last few days and I needed this.
I never stopped believing the queen would one day return.
THIS IS ME, even moreso thank the intuitive pantser!
I finally understand why I never finished a book project, thank you Ellen!!
Oh my god I have never felt more seen re: my messy writing process. I assumed I wasn’t methodical because I’m intuitive about a lot of aspects (tone, atmosphere, theme, etc.), and my process is so chaotic. Something clicked into place for me watching this video, and I think it might have changed my relationship to writing permanently. It never occurred to me to just… create my own structure map 🤯
Every section of this video was exactly what I needed to hear. I can’t thank you enough for the work you do.
OMG, where were you all my life? hahaha I've been writing, plotting, editing my novel for almost 13 years going in this never ending cycle and feeling I'm not writing this thing right telling myself no method works for me. Totally going to follow your tips because they finally MAKE SENSE for my brain haha. Thank you, gonna binge your channel now.
This video watered my crops and saved my life all in the span of watching it. It felt wild to hear to say insights that directly mirror aspects of my process I've long worried were too chaotic or merely a disorganized way of doing things. Also as a writer with ADHD, it feels extra affirming to have someone put this care into creating a more concrete language for the kind of writer myself and many others are, when I've often felt like there's something wrong with me for not being able to "fix" my process. So thank you, thank you-- this video was incredible and I look forward to the others 🙏
You are so welcome!
I’m sure you’ve heard this a million times, but this explained so much about my own writing, THANK YOU
People don’t even need any sort of writing seminars or classes, just watch ALL of Ellen Brocks videos, and you’ll get everything you could ever need!!
This has got to be the single most helpful video on writing I’ve ever watched, and I really do mean that. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone 1) tell me to embrace the chaos and then go on to 2) give real, actionable methods to do so. Thank you so much!
Thank you, Ellen! For this video and for all you do. It was such a relief to hear that this stupid word count thing is just not for me, and that I am allowed to go back and forth, edit and write, follow my own lead AND lean on structural landmarks to not get totally lost. You've really helped me tremendously with this, self-blame can finally stop, and I can start to embrace this mess and have fun with it again. Thank you from all my heart!
Thank you so much for this video. I always struggled to complete projects when I made detailed outlines, but I could never even get a project going when I tried to dive in and 'just write'. Learning about progressive outlining and zero drafting helped a lot, but I didn't have terminology to describe my process until just now. It's so reassuring to have a professional editor acknowledge that not all of us write in a series of distinguishable drafts, or break down our work into distinct brainstorming/writing/editing stages. I can't wait to try out your tip about editing the outline before editing the manuscript! Cheers to embracing the chaos
I'm so glad you found the video helpful. Let me know how it goes editing the outline!
I love this playlist. It has helped me a great deal. I can’t decide if I fall into the intuitive pantser or the methodical pantser. My process is very chaotic but I also know what works and what doesn’t without looking at the structure. Structure and plotting gives me a headache 😁 but I do take lots of notes as I go. I never write in a linear way. I tend to start with the scenes I see in my head and let the characters build themselves and the story around them. One major drawback is the length of time it takes me to find what doesn’t work and fix it because it involves a lot of rewriting
I think this is the best description ive seen of my own process! One thing i will day is, being as crippled by perfectionism that i am, if i stop to edit too soon after ive started writing, i will get stuck in a spiral of thinking my work is worthless cringe, but uf i just write for long enough, my brain kinda works through it and grts into an amazing flow. The only way ive found to get to that point is by forbiddiy myself from editing UNTIL i get there. Then i can churn out so much stuff and i can go back and forth and think 'oh, no, this works so much better than that other way!'.
I REALLY resonate with this mythological pantser- writing type! But I have ADHD and possibly high functioning autism, and they are battling every day. I wrote this crossworlds soft fantasy romance 10 years ago, LOVED writing it without any outlining, but since then i have educated myself and now have possibly 20 versions of it, and I can't choose which is better! I feel like my ADHD side just writes and writes and comes up with multiple amazing versions all the time, but I can't decide on a specific theme or philosophical question because my autism-side want it to be perfect! And hates the jumping mess my ADHD is making :) This makes me realise that my process is okay, THANK you Ellen. I already have more confidence since watching this (3 times now!) My visual brain is very active, so its hard to find the image I think is better, I really wish that someone just told me "THIS is best because of your theme" or something like that 😖
This makes me feel so validated xD. Thank you for this! My writing process is such a chaotic mess with the plotting, editing, and writing all at once that sometimes I can't even wrap my head around what I'm doing. You also perfectly summarize my experience with beta readers and critique partners, as well as the thing with losing steam. I think this process is looked down upon in the writing community because there are all these ideas floating around of what the process of writing a book "should look like", which is very much an A B C kind of thing; draft 1, draft 2, edit etc. I found myself often frustrated with myself because I don't quite fit that mold, and it's often made me question whether I was a "real writer". So thank you! And welcome back
As someone who has tried writing one book then succeeded in (currently) writing another one, all this info puts it into perspective why one flopped and I continued on with the second project.
Structure to a degree helps me stay centered and the flow of creating gets me to walk down the path. Chaotic is perfect word to describe this to someone who is on the outside looking in. My wife is boggled with the amount of random tidbits and sheets of thoughts I have.
I think going forward, I’ll lean into the method more of embracing structure then using that to inform my writing. Super helpful!
Watching this video series - especially this specific video - has been an uncanny and invigorating experience. I've never heard the reality of my writing "process" (lol) so flawlessly described - both the good, and the not so good aspects of it. Your insights are truly helpful, and I've hung on every word. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
One note I would add for any other Methodological Pantsers out there looking for insights: write 1000 new words a day.
Interestingly, Ellen sort of gets at this when she talks about how MPs do our best work when looking at something we've already "gotten on the page". She really hit it on the head when talking about how MPs figure things out by the act of writing; as such, I think my advice here doesn't go counter to anything she says in the video, but rather supplements it. MPs need something to work *on* - an area that we can easily fall short on, precisely because we will just as happily plug and play our "creative summaries" or "structural documents" to our hearts' content. Unfortunately, no book awaits us as the end of that tunnel - just really, really good outlines.
Try and generate 1000 words a day, and think of it almost as a warm-up exercise. (Yes, really.) You may be shocked at how energized you are to get back in the document after doing so.
Some days I'll do 500 words in the morning, 500 words in the evening, and then at night once everyone is asleep I get in there and start embracing the Chaos. Other days, it's 1000 words in the morning. Either way, generating new content, bit by bit, is critical as a first step. Once that content is generated, I think everything else in this video is 10/10 accurate. (I learned 2-3 new tricks that I'm totally gonna try.)
Again. Big thank you to Ellen for this really fantastic video. Wow.
Honestly, I can’t tell you how helpful I find your videos and the way you explain things. I find myself nodding along to what you say, which I never notice myself doing for others. Your videos are brimming with immensely useful information! The value I’m getting from your channel is incredible, so thank you, thank you, thank you!
I felt so seen watching this video!
Im majoring in creative writing at uni and this video really helped me to allow myself to just sink into my process instead of trying to resist it and force myself into a "should" box. lol.
I found your advice around needing to understand a structural methodology to get the most out of your natural inclination toward "methodological panster" as a writer is 100% accurate. Once i made it my mission to dive into structural methodologies - it really free'd up my creative "pantster" side!
Interestingly, I have actually found more valuable learning on structure via youtube creators such as yourself - than my second year uni classes provide thus far - which is pretty grim considering the cost of the education... but i digress.
Thank you so much for your contribution on this platform. As always, your delivery and content is always of a superior quality. We appreciate you so much :)
I had always thought I was a plotter, but watching your author type video, I realized that I'm a pantser who wants to plot. I totally plot a scene right before I write, but I may not even follow that, because it just gives me an idea before I start writing. After I write the scene, I go back and revise my scene outline and I may even go change my entire outline. This is so helpful, thanks!
You’ve nailed it exactly. I have also never had anyone else describe my experience with beta readers. Using them ruined my second novel and I should have just stuck to my own vision and not gotten the peanut gallery involved.
The point starting at 8:20 is literally changing my life as I listen to it. All those abandoned drafts… it just makes so much _sense_ now. Master has given Dobby a sock!
Looking forward to whichever I am. A little bit of everyone at different times it feels like. All depending on my mood.
This is so me 😭 I was nodding my head at every point/tip you gave and talked about. That was what I was struggling with and also figured out what was wrong. Point 10:50 Yes! I learned this through Nanowrimo. It didn't work for me anymore. I always thought I was the odd one for not using word count in the first draft stage anymore. 13:00 Save the Cat didn't appeal to me but the 7 point Structure did with a combination with the 3 Act Structure. So yes! it's okay to mix it up a little. 15:20 Wish I learned this earlier 23:50 I agree I did this with my current novel and it send me into a spiral of not wanting to write anymore and create more self doubt. Thank you for this video I will be embracing the chaos knowing I'm not alone ❤😊
You can't even tell how happy I am that you're uploading videos again.
I was 100% certain I was some kind of plotter because I LOVE stuff like Save the Cat and researching enneagrams for my characters, and using software like Scrivener and dropping scenes onto timelines to structure things. But, nope! This is so much me you might as well have installed a spy program into my scrivener program lol. Everything in this is exactly how I write, even including losing steam at about 20-50% completion. I'm going to look into the 27 chapter method, and write myself a note to embrace the bunny hopping from one task to another as a helpful method to keep progress going.
I LOVE this!!
Thank you for this video; I had never encountered the idea of a “Methodological Pantser” and it feels like a match for how I work- I often feel that I’m not organized enough to be a Plotter, but not intuitive enough to be a Pantser, and it can be really discouraging-
I really appreciate that so much of this video goes against a lot of really common writing advice; it feels so encouraging to hear that there’s a different way, and that you’re not doing it “wrong” to be more organic to how you naturally work.
Thanks so much!
Absolutely brilliant video. You mentioned finding a method with more points. I hate Saves The Cat. I found Katytastic's 27-chapter structure so much more useful. I added Brandon Sanderson's character notes. I added scene checklists from another writer whose name I forget now. When I get stuck, I like to have a checklist to think about where to go, what I need to include in the setting, a reminder of character motivation. I discovery-write but like to have something on hand as a guide.
Thank you. I feel like I gain a little more understanding and confidence with each rewatch of this series. I start every story as a Intuitive Pantser, and then I start the next run through of the draft (whatever state it is in) as a Methodological Pantser. And then I make a more detailed plan, mark what isn't working, and add more structure on the next draft after that. I don't know if I will ever reach a Methodological Plotter, as outlines make me twitch, but a good bullet list and a hitlist of what I need to bring out has been working for me. I do like structure once I have my footing in the story, but sometimes it takes forever to find it. Being an artist, Painter (AKA spastic mess) and a Printmaker (kinda anal about some things), for most of my life there are some habits that are hard to break but if something is holding me back it has to go. Again thanks for this series. I've gotten a lot out of it and again, as I mentioned in another video, your understanding of the different types of creative brains and how each are valid and can work has been a great help. It's really a unique talent you have. And rare with Author help videos.
Wow, not only did you just describe my entire creative process - heavy on the chaos, thank you very much - but you gave good, creative, and actionable suggestions for working within that chaos. Thank you thank you thank you. I'm going to create a sign for the wall above my monitors that says. "Embrace the Chaos!"
I'm so glad you liked the video! I love the idea of a sign.
I feel seen.
The moving from task to task tip really resonates with me. I love structure but my outlines are generally sparse, tent pole I think you said. But if I’m struggling with plotting I’ll jump to a scene and start writing which often generates a number of ideas of where to go. Or I’ll work on a character profile which generates ideas too. I love your content.
Oh my god, you SAW me with this video. Thank you so much for your insightful advice. It's so much better, more tailored and helpful that anything else I've ever seen and I can really see some of these tips adding value to my process.
I feel so seen in this video. I do think I lean very heavily into a Methodological Pantser. I do agree that our process is chaotic and we like to write halfway, go back and read/edit. Learning structure tips is very useful so that I know where to steer my ideas. I do outline but the final product almost always end up different. I often come up with better ideas in the middle of writing, and have to re-outline. All your tips are very true and helpful and has assured me to embrace my chaotic writing process. Thank you so much.
Hi Ellen, thanks for this video. I definitely feel like a Methodological Pantser. I'm a living example of the warning you gave during the section on running out of steam. I've jumped from book to book, idea to idea, for YEARS. Hoping I can use this information to develop a process that works for me. Thanks again!
Currently, I've been awake for more than 24 hours because I started writing at 1am and when I looked up it was 7am (which is a fairly regular occurrence when I sit down to write, sadly), but it was working out for me, so I kept going. Then it stopped working at about 8am, so I started re-reading my entire draft from the beginning, editing minor grammar bits for reading flow and adding/streamlining science in/into certain sentences,. Every time I near the end of a chapter, I skip forward and start adding things closer to the end (I write in fairly chronological order). I finally stopped about three or four hours ago, went to TH-cam, and I see this. Hah. Thank you so much for this accurate analysis of my writing habits.
More backstory: I've been trying to write this same story for more than ten years, starting out when I was younger with the vague concept of "I want to write a cool scifi story" until it blossomed into an entire soul-devouring saga that my inner muse will not allow me to turn away from, but I kept throwing out draft after draft because I rush ahead in a binge-session and fumble the plot; my characters do something not-true-to-form, I fall into a cliche, my entire plot gets derailed or I explain something way too technically just because I think it's cool; you name it, I've thrown a draft out because of it, but I keep doing science/physics research the entire time regardless, and I only want to write it more. My research on plot-crafting sinks in a bit, but I couldn't tell you what I'm doing while I'm doing it, or why it worked once I'm done.
Now, I've finally got a draft that I'm content with editing->writing->plotting->etc while I write, without wanting to rip my eyes out, and I'm fairly certain that's because I've been working on essentially this same plot for more than 10 years, and I've formulated an intuitive sense of what it means for me to screw something up, plus a vague idea of what it looks like when I do something right. When I feel it going wrong, I put it down - for a week or more, if I have to - and come back later, when I think I know what's going to happen next (I'm always wrong, and the end-result always surprises me once I write my first good paragraph after a few thrown-out pages. This current draft is nothing like my original plan. It's better).
Ultimately, the best help for me has been to learn that it's okay to make mistakes. I literally can't know what I'm doing right or wrong until the words have landed on the page.
And to not be afraid of the process. If I don't sit down and waste my time on those failed words, then I'll never get the opportunity to mold those bad ideas like clay until they make sense.
I've also learned to not re-read my old-old drafts for inspiration, because ultimately, they are examples of what did not work. I do not need to keep those ideas around. I remember what I liked about them, and that's enough. (I thank Steven King for that tip.) BUT I NEVER DELETE MY TRASH-FILES!
yes, I have six books all stuck at around 20% So this makes sense. Thanks
Thank you for this video! I've always considered myself a 'plotter' when looking at the pantser/plotter comparisons because I like structure, but once you explained the methodological vs intuitive angle as well, I really recognized myself in these descriptions of methodological pantser. I recognize the chaos 😅So this advice was really useful. I've just started a longer writing project and so it's encouraging to see other people have a similiar style and how to work with it, lots of tangible advice in this! Fantastic video!
This video is extremely helpful. You have described my writing completely. I have been stalled for ages. This is wonderful. Thank you!
This video was great for me. Thank you! From someone who has devoured everything good that I can find on TH-cam - you really seem to know your stuff.
From the info and advice i've been able to find, this (by far) captured some of the main things i've been struggling to find good info about.
I did not know I was a methodological pantser until now. This is incredibly helpful. Thank you.
This is very useful. I never thought I could be abything methodological and I'm a half'n'half pantser/plotter but the way you describe this type fits me very well. Which probably means I should learn more abouth methodology. I have pretty good intuition on small scale, like scenes, small arcs or series with a small number of installments, but I tend to get lost in the long run, so maybe methodology can help me there.
As for plotting/editing/writing - yes, these things are completely indivisible for me. I start every session with editing the previous scene or two and more often than not this also gives me plotting ideas. Sometimes I plot right in the middle of writing. A character has to respond to something another character said and in that moment I see a completely new plot idea. I've never had a problem with this approach and I don't think it makes me less qualified as a writer). It really helped when I stopped being afraid that I won't be able to solve the problems that I create because from experience I know I can. Sometimes it takes scratching half a book, but I still can ))))
For anyone out there who is like me, I can reassure them that using this approach I have completed several novel-sized stories which I'm really proud of.
Looking forward to the "intuitive plotter" video!
I always assumed I was a pure architect type of writer. Recently I started playing around with this type and its working so much better, I've never been happy with my writing before and I have been the past few months. Thank you for all your content 🙏
I've also found that when I get stuck the best thing I can do is either plot or edit my precious chapters. That gets me rolling again within a couple days.
Thank you so much for this! I have felt pretty stuck these past few weeks, and your words have helped me a lot. Some of it is not knowing how to get from the beginning into the middle (and your other videos are really helpful there, too!), some is probably burnout since I've written a LOT this year.
That said, I do find word count extremely motivating, but I don't take away any words I have already written from my tracker, even if I take words off my manuscript, if that makes sense. But yes, inspiration is never enough. I've been attending the London Writers' Salon's Writers' Hours a lot because they basically give you supervised butt in chair time for free.
Almost everything you described fits me! I’ve tried completely pantsing and I normally end up overwriting and my pacing is slowwww. For some reason I go way too in depth, and end up with a lot of rambling in the draft, lol. I’ve also tried to force myself into being a plotter, and having a rigid outline for a story. Every single time I get bored by the end of the first act. What I’ve found works best is what you were describing…basically I do a “word vomit” initial concept before I start writing. Then I make a slightly more structured outline as I go. So I’ll outline the prologue and chapter one, write that. Afterward I’ll add a chapter two to the outline and then write that, etc. For the most part, it seems to be my sweet spot. Just enough plotting with a lot of freedom to still pants when I need to.
Finally~ I've been waiting this since your video about writers type. Yes this is actually what I looking for!
Pantser?? That's such a loaded term lol. Feels like it has a lot of condescension baked into it. But then "discovery writer" also has a certain degree of arrogance. "I don't need to plan, I'll just write myself into a corner!" But yeah, as a semi-methodical pantser, I really appreciate this vid. :)
There is no term that I really like either. They all seem loaded or awkward for one reason or another. "Pantser" seems most widely used so I went with that. So glad you like the video!
I was going to make this comment, too. I feel like 'discovery writer' is more like your mind has the story and meaning deep down, and writing is a way some people uncover the subconscious. Seat-of-the-pants, 'I'll just use my judgment as I go', comes across to me like there's no deep rhyme or reason (even though I guess the judgment and experience is also coming from subconscious plans/dreams/desires)
I know more oldschool writers use the terms architect vs gardner. They're not in popular use but I still like them more.
... I almost can't believe how much this describes me lol ... Some of this I've already learned about myself (I'm 2 years into my first book lol), but a lot of these ideas are totally new and I think could be really helpful! Thank you :)
I've never been this understood in my life lol this is almost embarrassing! Great video!
I'm so glad you're back!
I wrote my first book as a methodical pantser, and I arrived at so many of the concepts you mentioned as I went along, that I should feel this is what I am. Before writing the second book, during editing, I moved towards planning though. One thing I'd add about outlining is, it really helps to see it in front of your eyes, and so, I put each chapter section on a separate post-it note. It should be on the wall, it's on a table instead, but still - super helpful. Thank you for creating this platform, all the content!
I am glad you are OK
Thank you thank you thank you! I found the closest to my writing type for sure. And if that wasn't enough, I now have extra tools to wrangle this complicated style/process of mine. Great stuff!
Someone finally understands!!!
I spent the last 3 years learning most of this the hard way, and a bit more just watching this video. Wish I had this back then! (Though it might not have helped because I was *convinced* I was an outliner. I was wrong)
OMG, I am a Methodological Pantser 😮 This video helped SO MUCH thank you!!
I have a copywriting business (write fiction for fun and hopefully profit one day) and I've always tried to write without editing. You know, because "they" said to,!
When I finally gave up the idea, and decided to embrace my inner editor and edit as I go it's made writing so much more fun (as long as I like the subect, lol)
ELLEN - Grand Slam Home Run! Every point you made in this video I have seen in my personal experience. Thank you so much for this one!
You are so welcome! I'm glad you liked it!
Pure gold. I am SOO glad you are back! It’s because of you that I realized just this last year I was a pantser trying to write novels as a plotter 🙊 I can’t wait to see the intuitive pantser video now so I can compare the two. I feel I fall somewhere in the middle between intuitive and methodological, but not sure where yet!
I've been going through a bunch of your videos now that I'm deep in a writing project and trying to keep my brain on track even when I'm not actively writing, and I just wanna say it's so cool watching you gradually upgrade your setup and personal style as you grew on youtube. Been following you for a while and I love getting to see artists grow.
so glad you started with this one--as this is me!
I would say I'm more of an intuitive pantser, but I've found I can save myself a lot of work later by starting the book twice. I start the first time with no idea who my characters are or what their story will be. Once I've gotten to about the 10k word mark, I find the characters and find their arc, I scrap that 10k and start over from the beginning. My plot is pantsed, but my character arcs are more methodological.
This video is giving me an identity crisis. All my life I thought I was a plotter but it turns out that I may just be a pantser.
Thank you so much. I saw your first video about the four types yesterday. I kept thinking I was doing plotting and pantsing wrong and wondering WHAT was wrong with me. I couldn't fill an entire outline, and even though I had bare bones one with a knowledge of where I was going, I would often change whatever specifics I had plotted as I wrote. I felt my character leading me in another direction, or I'd be writing along and go, 'huh, this happens' and it wasn't in the outline. Then I'd have to go back and change my outline. I like to do what I call loop editing, going back and editing a bit and then moving on with writing. And, of course, I was told not to edit while I write. This video validates that my writing style is legit, and I can focus on what I need to do instead of thinking I need to figure out how to outline better and more fully or trust, throwing any idea of an outline out the window. Thank you
Validation from the right source can be liberating. I love that you will now switch the focus of your energy now from fixing a problem that turned out not to be a problem, but instead a viable option to continue forward. That’s powerful! Good luck to you.
Fantastic video, Ellen! In the future, would you consider creating a video where you give techniques on how to move from that 20% point of resistance? Even though it may be especially true for this type of writer, I've heard just about every type run out of steam around this mark, and wanted to know if you could share specific strategies, by type, to push beyond it. Thanks! ❤
Great idea! I'll add it to my list of future videos.
That’s a great idea, it took me a while to figure this out as well. I’m an intuitive pantser, so I’m not sure if this applies for the methodological type, but when I run out of steam I need a challenge. It can either be that the book isn’t challenging enough for me to continue with or it can mean that I need to build in some complexity to make sure I keep myself interested and entertained and every time I do this it works. I’ve already finished several novels that way.
If you're like me, when you get stuck or discouraged, it helps to jump around in the story, honestly. Go forwards or backwards in the timeline (or within the characters stories, including back stories or their dreams for the future). You may not use it, but its not boring, keeps you writing in the story, and it helps with character arcs and eventual plot (I hope).
I'm interested in what Ellen has to say about this 20% point of resistance too! As a methodological pantser, I hit some kind of resistance or wall very frequently, and it seems to be different in nature every time. I think it's because I'm trying to make something without the right ingredients - maybe I'm trying to plot it out too far, and I can't keep going with it until I've written some scenes and gotten a better feel for the characters. If I'm writing a scene and it trails off, maybe I need to clarify what it's doing for my plot, and I can't really finish until I know that. At other times, input like a video on plot structure or character arcs will make something about my own story click, giving me new energy to throw at it. If I don't recognise that what I'm trying to do isn't working and change it up, I'll stay at the stuck point indefinitely.
I thought I was a plotter, but following the mega detailed outline (I wrote freaking scripts to add prose later and a six page step by step worksheet) to a tee had a chokehold on my creativity and I lost all motivation to write. I also found that my prose was much prettier when I was younger and just winged it. Will definitely try this method out!
THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU! -- You have described me in every way. I can now embrace what I am and how I work. You have said everything I've felt about writing. I'm glad you have put it in such a concise way. Some people like to write fast and not stop and research. I have to stop and do lots of different things (research, edit, structural analysis, word choice, etc.) throughout my first draft. And I find my best ideas come while I'm writing, after some writing (especially backstory) and character analysis and short summary my hook, my midpoint and the ending, although the ending sometimes change. Structure is something I depend on, but within that structure I'm a pantser. And like you said, I don't have number drafts. I'm just always working on a book. I plan to watch this video several times when writing.
I'm so happy this video described your experience!
I have a ton of writing books and Larry Brooks is the best for explaining the mechanics. However, for this kind of writer and perhaps every new writer, they will benefit from Deb Dixon's book, GMC, Goal, Motivation & Conflict. Its an easy read that gets to the point with good examples from movies. Less detailed than Brooks but Dixon gets down to the core items every writer needs. to grasp.
Thank you! I'm a methodological pantser, and a lot of your tips for writing were things I did.
I've been struggling with editing my first novel, and I really appreciate your advice. I'll be trying them out.
One thing I found that worked for me was going back and doing some editing as I wrote my draft, but also incorporating research into the process. It gave me a great deal of excitement as I wrote, seeing the story unfold as I was writing. I wanted to see what would happen next, as if I was reading a novel.
It's happening!!!! Been stoked for these since the original video! :D
This is such a great video-thank you!! As both a writer and an editor, knowing these types has been super helpful and I’m really excited for the other breakdowns.
I’m a methodological pantser, and yes the process is very chaotic lol. Something I’ve found really helpful though is building a strong foundation for my main characters and world (and maybe the plot a little too) so that when I do start writing, I have a good grasp of who the story involves and what external elements may come into play. For characters, I’ll write a summary of their backstory and identify their goals, strengths, and flaws. For the world, this gets a bit trickier, but I’ll usually identify some important locations I’d like to be involved, the economic/political states of these locations, any important factions of people and their beliefs, and how the magic works since I write fantasy. After that, I let the characters loose and just see what happens!
I do this too for characters and worldbuilding! I feel like I’m making grab bags of interesting traits and details that I can easily pull from while I’m writing.
@@helenlittle7761 Yes! That’s really what it is
Thank you for this validation! I only recently accepted that I can't outline and that I only know my story through writing it. The idea that I'm not alone in running out of steam at 60% is allowing me to embrace the chaos and just write without inspiration. It works! I am stunned by how my story organically grows and pieces connect if I just allow myself to follow my own natural process.
this video was so helpful, thank you! now to embrace the chaos…
I see Christmas came early!
I handle the 'throw things away' bit by keeping a 'Book of Orphaned Ideas.' Any time an idea isn't working, I write it in that book. If I find a point in the story where it'd fit, I just copy it back in. If there's nowhere it fits, I have it for later. If I get stuck on another story, I just go through the orphaned ideas and can sometimes find something that solves my block.
It helps avoid feeling like I wasted the time of writing it out, since it can be used later.