The Four Types of Novel Writers
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ก.ค. 2024
- Knowing what type of writer you are can help you to find strategies that best utilize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.
SHOW NOTES & TIMESTAMPS
02:20 Plotter vs. Pantser
Plotter: A writer who plans their story before writing the first draft.
Pantser: A writer who "flies by the seat of their pants" when writing the first draft (doesn't plan).
06:20 Intuitive vs. Methodological
Intuitive: A writer who bases their story and edits on their gut feelings and instincts.
Methodological: A writer who bases their story and/or edits on techniques, methods, and theories.
11:23 The Basics of the Four Types
11:51 Intuitive Pantser - A writer who has better results when NOT plotting or planning the first draft. They are able to intuitively sense the flow and rhythm of a story as they write and edit.
13:47 Intuitive Plotter - A writer who needs to plan before the first draft but does so based on intuition or gut feeling rather than following a specific method or structural system.
15:38 Methodological Plotter - A writer who needs/utilizes both a strong grasp on methods or techniques as well as thorough planning before writing.
17:56 Methodological Pantser - A writer who needs a strong grasp of methods or techniques yet they tend to have a vision that grows and develops as they work so they also need the freedom of pantsing or a less rigid planning system.
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I'm excited to share the beginning of a new series with you all. I really hope you find it helpful. Sorry about the auto-focus, it was really loving my hands this time. Timestamps and show notes are in the description. Thanks for your support in getting to 100k!
I'm trying to figure out which type I fit into. I absolutely have no conscious sense of scene structure, etc. When I wrote my first novel, I did massive worldbuilding, most before I started writing. But when I write, I basically go "Person A has to reach Point B, then C, then D. Go." And then something happens between A and B. And the events at C will change slightly, and they need to go somewhere else before D and I'll just go with it, while still eventually getting them out and to point D. All while continuing the worldbuilding in my two other FYI documents as necessary throughout the story. Which category does that fit into?
You totally deserve much more audience for this quality content !
Do you have podcast versions available?
Ellen, very helpful thanks, have you given any thought to the axis of what i call the detective or Sherlock Holmes where some will piece it in there heads like Holmes on one end and a plotting board of clues on the other. it also includes the free form or free association of writing to the what is the most logical or illogical next step for a character. one could call it the character in a empty room test. how do they get out? i never said the room was locked or guarded. the Occam's razor "with all known things assumed equal the one with the fewest assumptions is the best choice (not always the correct choice just the best choice for the given conditions at that moment.)
I thought that I was every one of the four types as you went along the wavelength spectrum. I was like oh I'm this, no I'm that. I ended up writing a 293,000 word version of a novel after 8 to 10 years and was rejected so far 3 times. After much consideration and watching authortube, writer's podcasts, booktube, and worldbuilding videos and taking inspirational lessons from published authors online such as Neil Gaiman, Brandon Sanderson, and Taran Mathuru, I have decided to break down my 1000 page monstrosity into bite sized pieces. I jjust completed a 50,700 word draft today, February second, 3 hours before the super bowl so I could watch it and the half time show, god I love shakira, I'm a male, but you can never assume anymore, after much consideration on how I set up my latest draft, a cohesive one by rifling through chunks of my planned out old manuscript and other short story Ideas, I think that I fall under the chaotic nature of a methodological panstser, I do indeed write in Microsoft word a short few page outline, like three pages or 1200 words then close it and write like 4 to 5 pages of a story, then write on paper because I like holding something physical within my hands, it's a texture and sensory based feeling that I appreciate, I cut, pasted, and added new story content to the latest draft and I feel pleased with myself. It took almost since I left high school, I started around freshman year writing marvel fanfiction in paper form with a friend, with some pokemon and star wars mixed in, lost all the pages save for like 2 and just gave up on it then went on writing real stuff, my original characters, setting, world, but the character I was developing for almost ten years had the same name as a cartoon I watched, the main character at least, so I stuck with the lord of the rings version of his name I made as a backup. I subverted some tropes and made many different crazy villains in my 1000 page manuscript. I loved it so much that for my current draft, I made the protagonist a complete villain, a science fiction fantasy story about a failed galactic conquest and the super villain is in the suburbs trying to live a "Normal life" he wants to escape reality, he wants to break free from his prison, boring planet earth where nothing cool ever happens. so when he finally escapes he is betrayed by someone who he least expects, the antagonist who I made as the misguided hero. Power is what you make of it, what you do with it defines you, only you can chose to become a hero or villain, the choice is yours, also not all heroes wear capes.
Saul Herman, aspiring author.
My type: clueless
@@ugurkupeli6779 Haha. Probably. The 1st draft is usually made up on the go and a complete mess. Rarely can I plot further than a scene oe two.
Yes, letting your characters plot the plot is basically a hallmark of a intuitive pantser as far as I'm aware.
The one downside is that it may be hard to get everything together again because it can very quickly get out of hand (see: GRRM, Robert Jordan and so on) so having some vague idea of where to go is good way to avoid that at least in part.
@@teaartist6455 True. I try to have a rough idea.
@@ugurkupeli6779 I try to have a balance of both.
lmao!!!
11:54 Intuitive Pantser
- Little to no plan
- Rely on their feelings & gut
- Intuitively apply structure in unusual ways
- Can’t explain how they’re applying story structure theories
13:48 Intuitive Plotter
- Intuition
- Hard time reigning in their ideas, shaping their ideas, holding the components in their head
- Benefits from plotting in advance
- Plan ahead with a creative summary
- Don’t need to follow a rigid structure / outline
- Good problem solver on an intuitive level
15:41 Methodological Plotter
- Rely on their logic, things they’ve figured out & theories
- Many things planned in advance
- Scene Structure
- Story Structure
- Character Arc components
- Most of the editing is done before drafting
- Love outlining everything before drafting
18:00 Methodological Pantser
- Plot, Write & Edit all the time
- Doing & Planning (back & forth)
- Switch between Editing & Writing
- Need to do that to wrap their brain around what they’re doing
- Chaotic Process
- Produces strong, competent stories
Thank you so much 🙌🏿❤️
Thank you!!!!
Thank you
appreciate it Kokoro(: Ellen has such amazing content on her channel 😊
Methodological pantser here, its cuz of my adhd lol
This is fabulous! I love the separate methodological spectrum, feels like a side of writing style that's often overlooked. Keep making these, please!
-Benji
Wait, are actually Tale Foundry? The TH-cam channel? Man, I didn’t TH-camrs commented on each other!
Wow I am impressed to see you here, I love your content.
I hope you're doing fine. It's worrying that your video was posted 10 months ago considering that we are in the middle of a pandemic. Please, come back, we need your help :)
I admire pantsers, and yet I fear them greatly.
Why?
You should fear our characters instead of us. They're the ones who really run the show :D
Muhahaha! Fear meee! Um... or something. Please? :D
@@SysterYster No, no, no. We don't want them to *fear* us. It'll be much easier to take over the (literary) world if they underestimate us ;)
@@Katherine_The_Okay XD So true, so true! My bad!
When starting a novel, I am a pantser. I usually create a scene that was in my head and then elaborate on the plot with planning. In my opinion, I find pantser more fun than plotting but plotting is necessary.
Plotters have this fun aspect though. We get to touch our favorite scenes quickers instead of laboring on boring stuff. Nothing more annoying then being on those dryer chapters
@@ebeleingram8048 I do agree, although being a religious plotter just isn't fun to me. Sometimes I like to let the world and the characters grow around me without having to plan it, which means sometimes the plot or the characters surprise me and turn out to be something else than I planned.
I like to mix both, even though I’m a pantser.
It just brings out a different flavor in writing.
@@noahi.1381 Same. What I do is I make a "first draft" but really it's just a lengthy idea, which comes as a gut feeling, and I don't plot anything at all. Then if I like the idea, I go through and analyze the mistakes I made and things that don't look right, often methodologically, and then I make a vague plot outline (but very detailed character sheets) and when I actually start writing, I may stray from the outline due to intuition, but then I can use the outline to go back on whenever my pantsing method leaves me unsure of where to go. Sometimes it's confusing but it makes the entire process so fun :0
I agree with you! I'm a pantser as well, and I really enjoy it. A plot is always necessary before you start writing.
I think I am an intuitive planner. I describe my writing process this way: the story already exists out there in the universe, and the universe randomly decides to share snippets of it with me in eureka moments of inspiration (hokey, I know, but it's how it feels lol). I channel those snippets into a plot document that I play around with, and eventually everything slots into place. When I encounter issues with the plot or pacing, if I wait a month or two another eureka moment happens and the solution is basically delivered to me by my brain/the universe. And once that picture feels whole and complete and has really taken shape, I begin writing. In that way, some times I feel less like an author creating a story and more like a conduit for a story that wants to be told.
I kind of relate :)
Thanks for sharing this. It helpded
Sounds like me!
"Waiting a month or two" is the relatable thing I've ever heard in my whole writing journey 💀
I’ve thought the exact same thing about stories already existing and us being the ones who the story is shared to
Similar to mine process only that I pants,so i write down what comes to me,then IT suddenly stops,i wait for the eureka and start again lol
I’m an intuitive pantser and I wasn’t expecting to be called a prodigy. In fact, until watching this video, I wondered why things like the 3-act story structure felt restrictive to me and thought there was something _wrong_ with me. Like, I _understand_ structures and plotting methods, but I’d rather just throw them away and do who-knows-what, then identify where I placed different plot points afterwards. My guess is that I read so many books as a kid that writing stories became a subconscious process to me, like how babies learn how to talk by listening to those around them.
You learn what you like and you apply what you know. For you it's in writing, but for others it's other things. When you develop your own taste and create your own understanding you know what you want out of whatever it is you pursue to create. Your exposure to books as a kid has most likely allowed you to develop a more deeper understanding of literature which serves your endeavour to enjoy literary creative freedom.
Keep pursuing your intuition and exercising your autonomy. You'll grow that way.
@@victorpacanza7664 Thanks!
Intuitive plotter. First I have a gut feeling and it's always a bunch of crazy ideas. And then I build story structure and character arcs based on them. It takes months and years. Finally I write the story when I feel it's ready.
I was like this before, but then i ended up with a pile of handwritten plotting and no chapter. i realized my love in writing is writing the story itself, no wonder i was so miserable and stressed before, now i'm embracing being a methodological pantser. :)
This is totally me! I always know where my story is going from start to finish, most of the time based on a gut feeling or even a dream. Sometimes I have huge bursts of intuition to just write big chunks of story and I always know where they fit. But for the rest of the story, where I don't have as much intuition, I can get stuck for years on end...
Sounds like me. I think I'm that type too.
Same here; I know a story works when I have a clear vision for it. Ellen describing intuitive plotters as going with what feels right fits me perfectly.
Артем Бычков
I think I’m somewhere in the middle of intuitive plotted and intuitive pantser.
This is usually how it works: first an idea for a world pops up into my head. I start dreaming about this complete other world that doesn’t exist and start making little details in my head. This all happens until I’m almost literally living in this world. It’s much more effective if I don’t have to go places and do school and crap but I basically leave this world and enter a new one through my imagination.
Then I get an idea of a basic plot like “I think I want them to stop the corruption in the government of this country.” And then I get a few loose character arcs like “ah I want them to overcome their phobia of whatever.” And all this crap and that’s it. Then I start writing. I don’t plan when I want the character arcs to happen or anything. I just write. According to all my friends, family, and classmates, it usually comes out really good 🤷🏼♀️
My writing style tends to be more "twit who spends a year researching, changes the rough outline half a dozen times, and then realizes the characters are actually nothing like I thought"
edit: omg, I'm a methodological pantser. I never knew there was a name for my weirdness. Thank you, Ellen!!! You don't know how much better that makes me feel.
the number of times I spend hours and hours researching some (often surprisingly interesting) minutia...and then never use it at all... I'm definitely a methodological pantser of some degree - just need to get better at identifying when I'm about to kill my interest in a story with over-planning...
@@Baiswith For me, it's not so much killing my interest in a story as it is discovering something that makes me want to write a completely different story, or take my existing story in a completely different direction. Amounts to the same thing, really, but I can't help it. I could never comfortably write a story without being fully immersed in the details of my story's world, and that requires an ungodly amount of research. I mean, I understand that my readers will never need to know that it takes over 10 yards of starched linen to make my MC's petticoats, but *I* need to know it, darn it!!!!!!! And, you know, I'm sure that the details of growing and harvesting flax and then processing it into linen will be important to the story as well. Right?
>.>
@@Katherine_The_Okay The first page, which became my first story, happened from midnight till ten in the morning. It grew to 100k words, and went places I could never have plotted. It literally became an exercise in pealing back an onion (like ogres?) and finding out that everything that was happy and positive was actually finely balanced devastation ready to strike. Literally going from "what a cute kitten!" to "if we run in separate directions the tiger will only get one of us."
From the details of harvesting and processing flax, you start with a young lady standing in the water, her damp dress clinging to her shapely body. Yeah, I can see a romance growing from that description. The love arc going from visual attraction, proceeding through his helping her, to protecting the her and the product as they take it to market. Okay, BICFOK!
(Butt In Chair, Fingers On Keyboard)
HAHAHA. I FEEL YOU! SAME HERE SAME HERE!!
@@Katherine_The_Okay This made me laugh. 😊 Yes, so with you there. Research is awesome, and gives such great fodder for stories or plot! ...But applying it in a way that both makes sense and still upholds the message of my story is another matter altogether. 😄 Keep writing and have a great day!
I might be a methodological pantser?
Plotter-pantser: I’m a “plantser”. I plot, but not too detailed. Each chapter still gets pantsed like crazy to find my way to the plot goal. The outline is to keep me grounded and avoid writer’s block. I don’t go back to chapters, but I make notes for changes during the draft edit.
Intuitive-methodological: I’m intuitive, but I enjoy and make an effort to learn structure and other story components in order to inform my intuition and keep ignorance at bay. While I don’t like the limitations of structure, I appreciate that intuition is honed by knowledge and skill.
Well or is a spectrum so you can find your unique coordinates!
I’m a methodological pantser and I 100% fit into the categories you described. I didn’t even know before the video that most people say not to write and plan and edit the same book all at once as that’s what I’ve always done
Also it’s so funny because I plan each part so carefully but then it goes completely off the rails when I write it. Characters never do what you want them to do lol.
Intuitive plotter: the plotting phase sparks all of the possibilities and is more so a guide rather than a strict outline
Same!
Yeah I'm definitely intuitive but if I don't have a plot to help guide me to where I need to go my initiative nature tends to run wild and make writing feel like a hurricane of ideas I can't control.
For me it was being an intuitive pantser at the beginning that sparked possibilities. I then became methodical and plotted, to explore those possibilities. I didn't plan it that way, though. I can't imagine writing a novel as an intuitive panster. You'd have to be a wizard, or Hunter S. Thompson.
Sameee, i dont control my characters, I write what they di woo
When she said plotting too much makes you lose motivation to actually write was incredibly relatable.
I thought I was an Intuitive plotter, but when you got to the methodological pantser I indentified so hard to it hahaha. I guess it might be a good thing to embrace this about myself :)
I had the exact opposite experience! Thought I would've been a methological pantser, but when the video got to intuitive plotter it was crazy how much it sounded like me. I think it's because I never thought to break "intuitive" apart from "pantser," and I figured that since I was making up scene structure as I went I must be more of a pantser. The video's breakdown makes a lot more sense, though!
Same.
Same for me.
Same. I was so happy when I heard that most of the advice out there doesn't apply to me :D
Same.
Oh, wow. As a methodological pantser (who thought she was an intuitive plotter), I feel seen and affirmed. Writing, editing, and plotting all at the same time can get tiring, but it works for me. Great video!
Same here!
One of us! One of us!
LMAO I died at her description. I always felt bad about myself not being able to write in a normal order, turns out this one's also more common and normal than I thought lol
I thought I was a real weirdo for writing in this way, but apparently it's...COMMON?! Why is such a common writing method so often blown off as "not valid"? LOL. Thank-you for letting us know this is really a thing!!
Same here, but for me it's vice versa. I once thought I was methodological pantser
Another huge benefit I've found from being an Intuitive Pantser is that my characters live in the moment right along with me. I find it so easy to describe whats going on with the senses, movements, expressions, etc. because its happening right there in my head at that very moment. It's like we're sharing the same brain/moment so describing their actions/reactions is so easy for me. It really helps me get rid of all the unnecessary filler that people often "think" you should have. It's like I'm transcribing a live play in my head. I only write the parts that really matter. It's really fun haha. As soon as I make a plot the story is absolutely dead. I have an initial idea, I start writing, and BAM I learn about the character at the same time the audience does. It can make it scary to start things, though. There's sometimes this expectation that you need to have all these ideas and structures lined up ahead of time to make the plot have substance, but what I actually find is the problem in my writing is that I'm under describing things because they're going so fast in my head as I'm experiencing them jump out of thin air. Once I flesh out the paragraphs with more detail, it's chef's kiss. xD
I’m about 50/50 on plotting and pantsing. I “plot” in my head for a long time before I actually start writing. I have spreadsheets to make sure events occur in a logical way. However, I’m more intuitive than methodological. I don’t use a template or the hero’s journey or save the cat. That’s not for me. I write a story and tell it the way it feels right, but it could be that years of observing stories being told, I’ve unconsciously digested a sort of template? But you can’t take my book apart and say, “Here’s the scene near the end of Act 2, part 2, where the heroine has a moment of realization....” So I’m thinking intuitive semi-plotter.
it's funny, i'm very young and I experience the same thing while writing. I've experimented with a lot of genres (especially film and TV) and have found that I plot for TV but i do not plot for stage or film or novel. Longer-form means longer writing sessions. I use people from my life as characters, it's not really fictional, and because I know them well I can write about them very fluidly. Every plot is based on the principle that is has to be realistic despite any world I'm building, Usually I do basic research and then write a ton then do more research and mend things that aren't historically accurate. Unlike you, I don't follow the traditional story and, while I keep in mind that I have a reader or viewer who may become very bored, I tend to gravitate towards trying to make the writing as original and true to myself as a writer as possible, which means frequently bending the rules of writing.
@@closetsclosetsclosetsclose9250 I don't use a template to plot. I usually start with a list of events that I expect to happen. A very rough outline. The reason is that when I was young and purely pantsing, I would get lost without a goal in mind. I needed something to steer me back on track. My second book was so much easier because it's like the idea was almost fully formed at the time of concept--the characters and everything just downloaded into my brain. The delay from idea to completion was simply because I stopped to finish the first book. I've never written scripts (except in high school for assignments), and shorter work is far more difficult because my ideas are too multifaceted to fit into that structure. My writing style is a blend of literary and commercial. Most art is rule bending, so that's okay. There's a difference between that and an error, like where you are writing in first person and suddenly break your point of view and start talking about the other person's thoughts. So, what you call rule bending may simply be a style choice. If it works for you, go with it. It's good that you have learned so much at such a young age.
Hey, me too. You pretty much just described my writing style for me :D
kitty marie I’d call it a very organic style of plotting with a loose outline (nothing set in stone) but a general ending in mind. I usually have about three main ideas (some overlapping and some not but come in at a certain point) that I want to happen in the book and a couple of scenes in mind. I may make a list of how these things might occur, and the order in the book may change. As I near completion, that’s when my loose outline turns into an elaborate spreadsheet, when I can finally see the whole picture, polish up bits and pieces, and make sure everything is accurate.
@@MatildaRabbit Wow didn't see your response. From this I take it you are published? What's the name of your book?
I believe I'm an Intuitive Plotter. I don't usually start my first draft until I have a summary of the story; I build the world, main characters and establish the themes. I'll also structure ideas for story elements, such as magic systems and the like - all of this in a document that usually spans a few pages. Then, craft a rough outline in another doc with around a few sentences (sometimes a paragraph) per chapter, to explain what generally will happen in that chapter, and so forth. It's all plotted out, but a lot of the small details and specific aspects of scenes are all still absent, or vague. So, when the first draft begins, I'm just using those two documents as a guide, while I let my gut (and heart) go with the flow. So, example: if my MC's breaking point happens in a certain chapter, all I'll have is a rough idea of what'll happen during and what led up to it. Certain dialogue is planned, but not all of it; scenes are planned, but the exact execution of them aren't. And if I had new ideas along the way, I'll be mindful of them and tweak the outline accordingly (even outright merging some chapters for shorter word count, when I see a lot of points in the story don't need their own chapter)
...At first, I felt bad about this, because a lot of writing advice has always told me to get allllll of this established beforehand. On the other side of the spectrum, the pantser type advice kind of just shames outlining, note taking and plotting altogether (Stephen King, for an example). But after watching this video, it's showing me that I made the right choice to just write and edit my stories my way, with my own style. When I use the above methods, I'm super motivated to keep going. I have good memory, but sometimes, even my best ideas can be forgotten if I don't jot them down. I have sort of a hectic life and a full-time job, so it's very easy for me to forget something.
Right now, I'm almost done with the first draft of my current story, and I'm super eager to go back and edit when it's done, because my intuitive nature guided my hands on those keys. I did a fair bit of building and fitting in the missing pieces during the craft of the story; I already have a good idea what developmental edits I need to do and some inconsistencies to tend to, and I made sure to jot them down for later.
I'm really sorry this was a long comment. I just hope that if anyone else writes like me, this helped them feel a little better about their style, and that they're not alone.
It sure worked for me. Read it all and loved it!
Thanks for sharing. I suspect I might be an intuitive plotter, too. I was aware of the plotting-pantsing spectrum but had never heard of the methodological-intuitive spectrum before. So I've always thought I was weird for plotting meticulously (outlines for chapters, backstories for each character, character arcs, new elements and locations, even a calendar of characters' birthdays and mapping out the work schedule of an entire department to make sure it's all cohesive), but feeling completely frustrated when I try to read books on story / scene structure. If something's not working, I tend to go to a published novel and read and reflect and almost always that sorts out the problem. I write stories with a significant mystery component, so I never get anywhere without a detailed list of clues and red herrings that I tick off as I go (this energises me), yet I've never successfully managed to fit my story into a standard story structure, and to think about what type of scene I'm writing feels very restrictive (goodness, I don't even take notice of when exactly a scene starts and ends). It's helpful to know that I'm not alone in these tendencies!
I literally felt like I was reading thoughts straight from my brain that I’ve been thinking lately. Thanks for taking the time to write this out. Fellow intuitive plotters, unite ♥️
Seven months later, I'm still waiting for the techniques for Methodological Pantser :')
I hope you're okay
You're killing me waiting for the follow-up as someone who's between methodological and intuitive plotting.
I flip so often between plotter and pantser. Some stories I go in blind, others I plan out in minute detail. Often I'm in the middle a bit.
I often have that I plot stuff out and run out of steam, but if I don't plot I have no idea where to go after like the first chapter...
Think I'm intuitive as well. But again, quite in the middle. I understand structure and do use it to a degree, but I also feel restricted by it. So I tend to write intuitively and if something is missing I analyse what that could be.
After watching the whole thing, I think I'm a Methodological Pantser.
This is totally okay. Some styles of stories may require different strategies.
I do think that novellas can benefit from pantsing, and novels especially series require plotting imo! :)
Yeah same
I wish I were an Intuitive Pantser.
My idealized writing style is the Methodological Plotter.
The style I try to work toward is the Intuitive Plotter.
What I actually do is Methodological Pantsing.
Intuitive Pantser is a
"- So you are a writer?
- Yes.
- How often do you write?
- I dunno.
- How do you write?
- I dunno
- Why did you write it like that?
- I dunno" hellscape 🌚
Initially, I thought I was a Methodological Pantser, after your descriptions however I now know that I am 100% an Intuitive Pantser. I'll have these ideas in my head that I want to play off of, but usually I'll come up with something new on the spot (the eureka moment) then after that all the pre planned shit is out the window and I just ride the wave and see where the story goes. Plotting takes away the fun for me personally. Usually when I try to write an outline I am unable to get into my flow of the actual story due to feeling like I must accomplish the goals on the checklist or summary. My most creative moments come when I am in that flow state, and that only happens when I have no idea where the hell the story is gonna end up.
I'm also an intuitive pantser
I think this is me too. I have an idea of the plot points and chronological events for the settings, but I dont plot out the characters actions. I just create the characters, their backstories, their personality, the world they live in, and I just let nature run its course. I hate dictating how the characters will react in each moment
Interesting how many people in the comments are prodigy "Intuitive Pantsers" despite Ellen emphasizing how incredibly rare they are 🤔🤔🤔
@@celisewillis we didn't say we were good at it.
@@ndo533 Per what Ellen said in the video, you kind of have to succeed at being an intuitive pantser to be considered one lol. In my experience, many people who think they're "intuitive pantsers" are often newbie authors resistant to learning basic story structure. Look up "katytastic 27 chapter outline" or "Dan Harmon's story circles", just something basic if you're frequently finding yourself editing for months, or even years!
I’m unpublished but the first two books i wrote was definitely intuitive pantser i loved it and enjoyed it. And i have done SO… MUCH… EDITING… since. I did write down scenes if i seen them in advance, its like i see a movie in my head. Ive been trying to do more planning with structure and i have noticed it drains me, i feel less inspired to write. Don’t get me started on the amount of sticky notes Ive used and how many walls they used to cover. If I’m not in the moment of writing i tend to forget, i found writing down helps not lose the thought. Even if i never look at the sticky note ever again.
I'm a methodological plotter for sure. It feels like solving an intricate puzzle and it's so fun making sure all the moving parts of the story function like clockwork. Downside is I hate doing things like dialogue/action :/
modii I am for my first chapter and for the middle to keep it from sagging and dragging, but for the rest I am methodological pantser.
modii, if you don't like doing "dialogue/action", what do you like? I think my strong point is atmosphere and description.
Yes so much!
For me I just write whatever the heck and somehow i ended up with one of the most intricate and elaborate, while remaining simple, universes I've ever seen lol
Oh I’m very good at dialogue and not so much with the planning… If we all put our heads together we could write an amazing novel!
Ellen: *Are you a pantser or a plotter?*
Me: *Yes...yes?*
Ellen: *Oh, okay. Um. Well would you consider yourself an intuitive or methodological writer?*
Me: *Yes. Absolutely. Perhaps. Let me check.*
lol
Yeah. I switch back and forth, everything on the fly, or sometimes the draft is just their like I found a whole castle in the sky rather then some airships! So both are good, too much plotting can cause issues and I never get to the story, elsewise no plan can stall in the middle. Need a median method.
Intuimalogical Plantser?
*UPDATE*: After some soul searching (viz. staring for way too long at the bottom of a Pringles can)
I now accept that I'm a Methodological Panster through and through.
Lol same
Thank you for this. I am the last type (mythodolgical panser) and I was put off writing a novel for so many years because whenever I sat down to plot it out I got nowhere. It's so reassuring to hear you describe my chaotic method as being 'valid' as sometimes I feel like I'm not a 'real' writer because I write, plot , edit, rewrite, biff whole chapters, change the ending a million times argh! But I love it, it's very motivating and fun to write this way, and I think I get my most creative by not planning too much.
Why did you stop posting videos? 🥺 hope you're well! Miss your writing advice
I'm the Methological Pantser. What I'm doing right now in my novel is writing the first ten chapters, then outline those and the next ten, then I will write those next ten chapters (if that makes sense). I have to do quite a bit of editing with my outline, but it works for me; it's the best option. I don't have everything planned out when I start, but I do later.
Hi Ellen, are you ok? I know you post only in a "season window" of a few weeks. With this one not followed up and the pandemic following, I am concerned about your wellbeing!
I hope you are well and wish you all the best! Thomas from Hamburg Germany.
I'm worried too. She hasn't been active on twitter either and there wasn't any post or info update on her own website. I hope all is well. If anyone knows something, I hope they would let us know.
She hasn't posted in a year!
@@sophieminter0 Hence the comment.
My Type: Intuitive Pantser
I'm so happy that I'm engaging in the online writing community more otherwise I never would have learnt there's a name for the type of writer I am!
Kudos to those who make outlines! I've tried and they just don't work for me. x.x
You are so lucky if you're an intuitive pantser. :P I have to flail around and shuffle things around. I always thought I was a plotter, but I think I'm in the methodological pantser category.
How about when a story suddenly plays in your head like you're watching a movie--complete with the beginning and ending, and some middle scenes--then you create a detailed plotline just to fill the gaps?
That happens to me, but with smaller scenes and only once I've had the idea for a while. Something to do with subconsciously working on it without you knowing.
@Genuine Potatoes Sounds like methodological plotter (but 1000% plotter)
That would be intuitive plotter.
That’s me to a T!! - intuitive plotter
That's exactly how it happens to me 😱😱😱
Love this! I’ve been struggling to figure out a writing system that works for me. The methodical pantser really resonates with me. I haven’t quite figured out how to mesh my love of structure with my need to pants. Very excited for the next videos!
It's been a year... I hope you're doing fine. I love watching your videos and learning from you!
I'm an Intuitive Plotter... but I stubbornly retain the fantasy of being an intuitive pantser and the illusion that my *next* novel will be written under a tree, by hand, in a lovely journal in the course of an afternoon. 😁🤣💜🙌
Every time you upload it’s like Christmas to us 😭♥️
Liking this before I even watch it. Your channel is absolutely the most helpful, productive and professional one on the platform. Always excited to see new videos from you!
Ellen, what happened to your channel? I and many others here miss your content. It helped to inspire me when I had trouble writing. I hope you and family are doing well. Please give us an update when you are able.
"you just put it away and never pick it up again" I feel personally attacked
I'm a methodological pantser who enjoyed writing in a weird see-saw but feared I was "doing it wrong." Thank you for explaining what we're like! It's quite a relief to know that good writing can come out of the weird stuff we do.
Real writers don't tell people they're not real writers.
I think I'm a methodological pantser.
And YES a pre-recorded Q&A would be an awesome way to celebrate your 100K subs. Congrats on that, too. :)
Hey Ellen, you alright? It's been awhile, hope you're doing okay
I'm almost 100% certain I'm an intuitive pantser. I've tried to outline. I always deviate, sometimes in drastic ways. Often my characters will end up in situations I never imagined they'd ever find themselves. My personal philosophy has developed to be that I know how it begins, I know where it needs to end, and the journey needs to unfold as the characters push it forward. I want my characters to write my story, not me.
I kind of agree with that. I went from writing a story about an adventure with unconventional humor to a story about all types of ignorance, like being naive, holding on to nostalgia, tunnel vision, and being manipulated, ending with the main antagonist having a realization thanks to main character, having to fight the secondary antagonist with the main character, and acquiring the power to change the world for the better.
Yes this , i know the start , the end and a bit in between , and I just write
Oh wow, I love this. It opened my eyes. I am definitely a Methodological Pantser. I need to get the stuff in my brain out on the page before I can start molding it.
Very curious to see what advice you have for folks in different spaces.
There is a chess quote I apply to writing:
Play the beginning like a book, the middle like a magician, and the end like a machine.
When novel-writing, I find this quote works perfectly. Hook the reader with a good opening, and don't be ashamed to write something generic. Why risk your opening when you can let other good openings sell your novel for you? The middle is where you shine as a writer and get to fully develop what you want to show and say. The middle is always the juiciest part of my favourite books. Write you ending like a beast. You've done the hard work, you've set everything up, and your reader has a tear in their eye. Dunk that ball, score that try, achieve your goal by absolutely nailing your book.
One more chess quote:
Winning a won game is the hardest thing in chess.
I would say defending a lost position is harder, but whatever. When writing, the ending is very important, and it's good to use almost mathematical techniques to complete your story. It's very easy to bundle the ending, ruining a very good story with a bizarre last chapter, page, or even sentence. The ending and beginning are where I like to use strategy and theory as much as I can, because I'd rather let tried and trusted techniques make my book better for me, rather than risking ruining the book I've spent months and years writing. The middle is where I get to do exactly what I want, and that's fine with me.
What do you think?
Lastly, if you know anything about chess, hopefully you'll know what I mean when I say I'm a romantic player.
I’m guessing you’re a methodological writer!
@@LimegreenSnowstorm When I was 14, I started out by completely winging writing. Nowadays, I plan a loose skeleton that allows for improv and change.
What I love about your video is you didn't mention different author's who might fall under each category. It gives us the freedom to find who we truly are vs. who we want to be. I found this video really helpful! I still feel like I'm trying to figure out what I am. I felt like three of those fit me well. Your explanation is by far the best I've seen on explaining different writing types and why someone might do it one way vs. another way. I can't wait to try different approaches and see what works well for me, since I'm still not sure.
This is really cool and makes a lot of sense. I’m just beginning writing so I can’t tell for sure what type works best for me, but I think I’m a Plotter who’s in between Methodological and Intuitive. I used to hurry through planning so I could get to the “actual” writing, but then I’d get stuck and quit writing the story so now I want to embrace Plotting more. As for Methodological/Intuitive, I love finding structures/methods to use, I think they’re really helpful, but I can’t rely totally on them... It seems like there’s also a more personal, soul searching element to figuring out stories. I hope you make more videos about the types! 😁
The important question is: how well does this correspond to Hogwarts houses?
Methodological plotter: Hufflepuff
Methodological pantser: Slytherin
Intuitive plotter: Ravenclaw
Intuitive pantser: Gryffindor
I think it fits really neatly, actually.
Hufflepuff is methodological plotter because they're the most grounded, steady, and reliable, and prefer familiar frameworks.
Slytherin is methodological pantser because they have a split between methodically laid-out plans and the ability to think on their feet, being both cunning and ambitious.
Ravenclaw is intuitive plotter because they're the most creative, wise, and analytical, and they often find solutions others don't.
Gryffindor is intuitive pantser because they're the most impulsive and like to charge ahead without any sort of plan.
I don't think it says much at all about any individual writer's house, but for what it's worth, I'm a Slytherin and definitely a methodological pantser, so.
@@nerdywolverine8640 I really can't agree with that Hufflepuff definition.
@@ThreadBomb Well, they're the house most associated with earth, they're loyal, trusting, and fair, and they tend to act like an anchor to those around them. Obviously that's a generalization, but these are rough categories that hardly anyone fits into perfectly. And these traits can manifest differently due to life experience.
I think I might be a methodological pantser, and this theory supports that idea because I'm a Slytherin
Great now I’m gonna be thinking about this all night
When I was younger, I used to write on the go, and then I found that I could never finish anything and often changed ideas a lot. When I started plotting in advance, it helped to get my head around what I wanted to write, but I tended to either lose interest or be stuck in the plotting phase. So maybe I'm the Methodological Pantser? Or the Intuitive Plotter? I do feel comfortable plotting to know what it is I want to write, but I could never break everything down before I start writing, because only when I start writing I know what the problems are and start to think how to solve it.
Thank you for the video, by the way! I realize now that Methodological Pantser is actually a thing, so maybe I'll just do what I think is best for me and not confine myself to a specific type
I think that's a great idea! I'm a methodological plotter, and I only realized it (without knowing there was a name for it) last month when I really started getting my outline together. But once I realized that I could actually understand story theory, it felt RIGHT. I've never looked back. Do what feels RIGHT. I think we are all at least that much intuitive :D
Great video! You literally sparked an entire discussion with my podcast co-host and me. He's far more on the "Intuitive" side and I'm far more on the "Methodological" side. Thanks for the great video! I'd love to have you on a show at some point if you're up for it! - Jay
I'm an intuitive pantser. The closest I get to planning is writing down titles sometimes then going on from there, lol. As soon as I see a title, I know everything I'm about to write.
Thank you so much for this video! When you were breaking down first three types I was kinda nervous because they didn't apply to me and a lot of the tips in general don't apply to my process. But when you started talking about methodological pantser I was like finally!!!! I never heard anyone talking about and sticking to similar process. And you're spot on with that description! I constantly shift between writing, editing and futher developing the storyline and making some changes. Thanks again! ❤
Hey Erin, Just want to share that I've been offered a contract for my novel. Your videos have been an inspiration to me this past year, and I'm sure I'll use your advice for my coming books. By the way, you look absolutely lovely. You've grown up. That's a compliment..
Thank you. You have perhaps saved my writing career. Jenna Moreci taught me I need to outline, know and plot everything about my story in advance before I write it. Including knowing everything about sequel books which is just overwhelming to me. But you have helped me understand I'm a pantser, and you've described me exactly, and you've also taught me its okay to be that way (insert smiling sweating emoji). I cannot plot to save my life. If I do I get bored or uninspired and shelve the idea. As a pantser, I have a general idea in my head, and I will just write and see where the story goes from there. I thought that was a bad thing up until now, that I was a lazy, unorganised writer. Thanks for helping me understand my writing type better, I feel so much better now. By the way, you are absolutely beautiful. I am captivated.
Jenna is a great performer, she has a great screen presence, and a sharp wit. Of course I love her to death.
She's also wrong, A LOT, because she acts like there's only one way.
I've watched a few reviews of her books, and they seem to be lukewarm. I've not read any of them, but I do like her Top Ten Favorite Tropes sorts of videos, and find them inspiring, so maybe I would like her stuff.
But everything she says not to do, take that advice with a grain of salt.
@@sibylsaint You’re absolutely right! A lot of her advice seems fair, but sometimes I do think she is wrong. I’ve watched some reviews of her books that aren’t great, and the things the reviewer criticised were her own rules. But i do love her top ten tropes videos, they have some pretty good tips
@@sea5063 Stephen King has the same problem. On Writing is full of rules he breaks in his own work.
@@sibylsaint Thanks! I’ll check it out
@@sibylsaint yeah, his earlier works are absolutely littered with adverbs and similes.
This was fantastic! I'm so glad you're going to break each one down separately!
Spent most of my life as an intuitive pantser, and the result was most of my stories were pretty mediocre and messy. Though that's how I prefer to write, I've transitioned into a methodological plotter, and it's amazing how much better the scenes flow, each one setting the next one up and building tension along the way.
Best guess is an Intuitive plotter. I can’t plot every scene, emotion, etc. I wish I could. But it does sap my creativity - I’d feel like I was writing my story twice. This is a great idea. Look forward to more in this series.
Love it. Awesome. I will re-watch this again and again.
Thank you for sharing these very interesting observations!
You're looking super awesome today. Glowing!
A favorite personality of mine once said, "Man's gotta know his limitations." This video helped me take it a step further. I begin to understand why I do things the way I do and how I can use the talents and tendencies I have (like mapping an entire world down to five mile hexes in a cartography program) as a benefit to and for my readers and myself. Thank you!
Loved the descriptions for each type of writer! I’m definitely a methodological pantser; your description for this type was the most accurate for my writing I’ve ever heard
i really enjoyed how clear this video was and the graphics helped me understand everything
I sent a writer-friend the link to this video and asked, "What type are you? I'm a methodological plotter!"
And she said, "I haven't watched the video yet but I could have told you that."
So I think the matter is pretty settled xD
I cannot tell you how helpful and revelatory this was. THANK YOU!!!
I knew about the pantser/plotter thing (in it's various names) but had never heard the idea of methodological/intuitive side! ... now since I'm quite sure I'm a primarily methodological plotter, I was very very excited and relieved to see you put this structure around things! lol I was thinking that I may fall onto the intuitive side because I just "know" when I have something right and when I don't, BUT I use systems, methods, theories, and planning to get my way to that right thing.
I think this whole theory of yours holds true, and I really really can't wait to hear some of your thoughts and advice on my type!
Keep up the awesome work!!!
Love this vid, thanks for the help Ellen!
Thank you very much again for creating these! Yes, these are very helpful!
Hi Ellen! I know youre not posting at the moment (and I hope you're well) but I just wanted to thank you for all your help. I have spent this last year consuming hundreds upon hundreds of videos on youtube, as part of my journey to become a better writer; your videos have always been the most helpful and most informative to me by far. Thank you for all this great content!!
I guess I count as the last type. Didn't know that was actually a thing so I'm kinda relieved now XD
I come from a film and tv background but decided go try a story I had in mind as a novel. I'm used to writting short scripts so this is a whole new world for me.
I worked on the plot (not a long one, about 15 pages). broke down my 2 main characters and then decided to begin the first draft with what I had because I didn't want to loose momentum. Thing is, as I advanced, it felt like I was still going rather blindly as I myself couldn't answer several questions that started comming up while I was writting the early chapters. Mostly worldbuilding as I'm doing futuristic science fiction.
What I'm trying to do now is whenever I feel like I'm halting or hit a snag I leave my draft and try to work on the specific questions that I dont understand and once I feel like I have the answers I return to the draft and keep going.
I feels like it's going to take much longer to finish the first draft, but I actually think it's helping me a lot with ideas that I had not been able to come up with when I first started plotting.
Excellent presentation. Thank you Ellen.
This has finally sorted out 20 years of confusing advice. Thank you so much.
What happened?? I love this channel! Come back Ellen 😫❤️
I'm a plotter, but I'm jelous of those people that can just sit and start writting. It just doesn't work if I don't plan it out.
But plotting is so much fun!!!
Pants-ers can move a lot of word paint onto the canvas very fast. But after about 5k words, you have to have a plan. And then (as a pants-er myself) you're going to edit PAGES of stuff out. It's likely about the same amount of time spent writing and editing it out as it would be to plot the dang thing in the first place. How do you know the hero is afraid of snakes if you don't look out through his eyes, which you can only do by writing his part of the story?
I love your stuff. You are a great virtual mentor. Keep posting.
just found your channel and it’s GOLD
Where was this video when I was in High School and intuitively pantsing my way through the first ten (handwritten) pages and then giving up when a new shiny idea came along?
Oh, wait. TH-cam hadn't been invented yet, the internet wasn't really a thing yet, and I'm horrible at guessing ages so I have no idea if you were even born yet.
I'm slightly more toward the plotter end of the continuum, and I find story structure really useful. I do a lot of character work before writing, and have a general idea of what happens in each act, but I really only have the first quarter of the story really plotted.
I went for engineering rather than writing because I couldn't spell. Little did I know that engineering is writing reports. But it was okay, because auto spell chuck came along, which made writing and wizarding easy.
Wow, I haven't watched you videos in a while, thank god the algorithm reminded me
Are you subbed?
@@ThreadBomb Yeah I am
I loved how you broke this down and found it so helpful. 📖📚
This is world changing -- and I've watched your structure videos, too. I'm a big fan!
thank you so much for another great vid ellen!
a question: do you have any recommendations for books on story structure etc for those of us who wants to dig a little deeper ? :)
I can recommend "Character Arcs" by KM Weiland. Although her ideas are a bit formulaic it is a great analysis of what character arcs are and how they work. "Story" by Robert McKee and "Anatomy of Story" by Jack Truby are primarily directed at screenplay writing, but the methodology discussed in them is absolutely applicable to crafting stories for novels.
I’m definitely an intuitive plotter.
I will watch this over and over. Thank you so much Ellen. I have subscribed.
That is one of the most useful writer's help guide I've seen! Cannot wait for the methodological panster video, cuz I'm struggling here. Thank you very much!!
Definitely a Heavy Plotter, though I always wear pants when I do my plotting.😎
Hi Ellen, just so you know, I miss your videos dearly! Hope you are well! Love Thomas.
I always thought I was alone in my method of light plotting, writing, plotting, writing, etc.
Glad to see you back! Will you ever do a video on how to use the five senses when writing if you havent already? I struggle with writing the senses and worry it might hinder my story
Do you mean you don't think about the senses while you write?
@@ThreadBomb I think I just don't use senses as well as other writers
It seems like its been 8 months since you upload the last video (this one), i hope everything is ok, Ellen! I am a new suscriber, and i really like your videos, its helping me a lot. Congrats for the +100k!! Hope to see you soon in this community :)
Oh my goodness! I am 7 minutes (and apparently 2 years late) into your spill, and so far you are spot on. Loving the keen insight and knowledge. Kudos!
Brilliant take on the subject. Thanks.
The core of this lesson is the Socrate principle "know yourself"
Hi Ellen, are you still making videos?? Please make another! I like your videos.
Wow, this is GOOD stuff. The intuitive vs. methodical axis is important but not often talked about. This is really, really great synthesis work to combine these two axes into a model like this.
I just found your channel and I'm impressed with how easy it is to follow your logic and advice. I watch a lot of different author videos and many are really good, but when I listen to your videos I am amazed at how clear and concise your advice is, how thorough your thought process is. I've been binge watching your videos and I am very glad to have your guidance through my writing process. You're so young and so talented. Love your videos.
Come baaaack !!
As an editor, are you able to tell if the writer is a methodological or intuitive writer?
"Methodical" or "Methodical Logic."
@@TheSouthHoosier she wrote methodological.
sara s good question
@@TheSouthHoosier methodological is a word
@@DanicaChristin I just realized I came off as abrasive. It was not intended. I just find the word antiquated. Recently came across it in The Great God Pan.
I just wanted to say that your videos have helped me so much with both motivation and advice. I've been writing a book on and (mostly) off for about a decade and have finally got past chapter 1! I've planned almost the whole novel and got to chapter 6. Since finding your channel, I've done more in the past few months than I have in the whole 10 years. 😊 Thank you!
The lighting of this video is so nice. Very soft. I find a lot of these writing/book vloggers have a harsh clinical lighting that hurts to look at. Nice change, good content.
Before I went in without a plan I found myself rewriting the same scene or I find myself stuck. Now I’m just planning it out but I found myself rewriting the outline.