I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why, using the same exact internal width rim and same exact width tires, they believe just because it's hookless, you can run 10+psi less than a tubeless+hooked setup. They just say "hookless is more comfortable because you can run less psi!" well why can you run less psi given the same inner rim width? they don't know what to say.
I'd never feel confident on my bike if I had to worry about my tyre pressure being within a certain range for it not to blow off my rim. The manufacturer warnings about tyre pressure read as "DANGER NOT SAFE" to me.
I’d rather be old skool & grey than have an issue on the open road thank you very much, 23/25c hooked & alloy handlebar & stem is sufficiently safe & light enough for me!
I could not agree more. I enjoy the durability and reliability of alloy bars. May cost me a 25 grams but they are safer, cheaper, light enough and not a concern if I go down.
Second rate brands, which want to save on production costs, and have a "vision" of another useless standard like many before. DT Swiss has totally ignored this trend, and kept traditional proven technology.
Your behind the times Fred I have hookless they are lighter, faster you never flat. I average 50 kph on my commute since I installed them, I just hire I road sweeper to ride behind so I have no rocks to hit and a huge aero benefit from the massive road sweeper ahead 😉
It was my (approved) tyre that blew off in my kitchen. If everything is just fine, hookless is just fine. The problem is that, in life, things sometimes aren't fine. Mistakes happen, and quality control sometimes isn't perfect. So you have a risk that wasn't there before. Look at aviation - they would never introduce an extra risk like that. They try to eliminate risk. The old adage 'if something can go wrong it will' holds true here. Hooked wheels have a proven safety fallback. Don't remove it.
My son and I have run two different Zipp hookless wheelsets on our two bikes even before I heard of these blow off issues. We run different brand 28 mm tlr tires on these bikes. We have had no issues in over a year using them. Just follow the recommended tire pressures and you will have no problem. I feel safe on these rims and tires.
I think you are onto it with the competition from the china brands. Zipp and Enve saw that they suddenly had a cap on their ability to raise prices going forward and still sell wheels. If you no longer have a path to improve profits by raising prices, you have to rely solely on cutting costs. Welcome to hookless.
Yes, especially considering that a cheap carbon wheelset nowadays delivers good performance and it’s difficult to justify the prices for the marginal gains
I knew from day one there is no way I’m going to ride these. People can talk lab numbers all day; it doesn’t matter. There is no discernible difference or competitive advantage. It’s an advancement in technology that is no advance at all.
Excellent. I even gave up on tubeless w/hooked wheels. It’s such a mess, and not practical. I always had the punctures where the sealant refuses to seal. It happened every time. The sealant makes a huge mess and ends up giving riders around me the infamous “Pearl Necklace”. I went back to tubes.. and use RideNow tpu. I love them. Cheap, especially in bulk. So light- especially when used on top of the line clincher only rated tires. A little more puncture resistance, but do seem to leak out a bit over a few days. Hookless is just not a safe technology .. maybe mountain bikes.. But I know of mountain bikers having disasters as well due to blowouts.
No, you absolutely got it all right! The industry is constantly fixing things that aren’t broken! All in the name of the almighty dollar. Tubeless is a great example of this. What an unnecessary pain in the ass that is! If I get a flat, I change it with my CO2’s I less than 10 minutes, and off I go. Thanks for sharing your opinion brother, hope the industry wakes up, and fixes all this BS before somebody gets killed. Also, this mindset is literally losing them money, not making more, by losing many customers like me. I have used and loved Zipps for years. I was recently in the market for new wheels, so of course I went looking for the new 404’s. Then I saw the hookless, with a max psi of 73. I am 220 lbs, and run 25’s at 110-120. Super fast, zero road resistance, and zero flats. Zipp gives you no choice, so I bought another brand, a loss of over $2000 for Zipp!👊😎🚴🏻🚴🏻
Very well said. I can accept maybe 110 PSI is hard, but 70 or so is way too low. 28 or 30 tyres might be better for comfort, I don’t think they are in the same performance category as 23 or 25
tubless + hookless are logical combination. but hooked rims and tubeless are have the same problem. hooked rims + tire + inner tube = propper pressure to hold tire on rim - it's bulletproof
Another interesting video Federico. As others have said, why change a design (hooked) that is proven and not dangerous, that's right it's cheaper to produce. Good idea in principal but in practice not.
yup...have those 303 s hookless with tubless setup...glad people are afraid of them...must be the reason they are so cheap...anyways gave me the best rides ever...don't buy them! they are genius
Hookless rims are ok on cars because car tires have a far more rigid structure and have metallic beads maintaining the tire in place whatever the pressure. On road bike, the thinness of the tire would require to only use tires with rigid beads not folding ones.
This is another case of large companies forcing a change that benefits them and no one else. It translates into less choice for the rider, greater cost for the product and in some cases perhaps greater risks to the rider. But if the bottom line looks good and profits rise; I guess the thinking is carry on. What next?
I've got an hookless rim with my giant TCR. You need to get compatible tyres following the manufacturer specifications. You need to stick to the prescribed pressure. Here all the cons end. All the rest is just pros. You fit the tubeless tyre literally with a normal pump, no compressor needed. The wheel is actually lighter but I don't matter. 2 years on, never got a flat, and I rode the whole Strade Bianche on a Continental Granprix 5000 25mm. I went over holes, stones. One time my tyre got stuck on cobblestones, I hit the ground, the tyre was in place. I think that most of the issue we see today are due to a misuse of the tyre, mainly due to pressure. In the UAE desert they pumped the tyres in air conditioned places and put it on the hot road. The pressure increase caused the issue in my opinion. The pressure limits are not well communicated and/or underestimated by old school riders...
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that for some wheels/tyres combinations the cons might be more than the pros. Issues happened not just at UAE and we expect pro mechanics to understand how to set up these tyres. Or maybe I'm just too old school to understand
Im more interested in why hookless doesn’t work for road bike tires. It must be something to do with the tires because hookless IS NOT new.. if you look at motorcycle or car rims, they don’t have hooks… and they have far higher forces exerted on them. Odd.
I think the march to hook less is inevitable. It costs less to make so it well take 10 years for the cycle to complete. Threaded bottom brackets is an example. The press fit was cheaper to make but they had problems and guess what, we are now back at square one
It's a pity that the industry can't cope with different products and set ups, has to be the same for all and pros have to ride what the consumer are offered to buy
Yeah, but before that though, lets try adding some grippy glue to the sidewalls of the tires before mounting them on the rims. Similar thing as the grippy paste applied to the seatposts and stems. That just might solve the problem. 🤣! I refuse to use any component that requires a paste to hold it in place. Not a fan of carbon fiber either.
For a roadie, tubeless and hookless won't ever make sense because there's really no huge gain. For gravel it's been there for ages and it's just lack of experience with it
Great video. Apparently Zipp released new tyre size recommendation. Normally, big established companies will go through deep R&D, and manufacturing QC. I wonder if such accident was the case of (somewhat) improper mix & match, or QC, or R&D not being deep enough, or all of those.
@@abhimawa1 it could be a combination of all these things, but the most important outcome is that the margin is too thin for me to use hookless on road bikes. I understand pro cyclists put more stress on the equipment, but if their technicians can get it wrong, so amateurs could also get it wrong. Hooked rims with tubes for me.
Yip! Hooked rims with latex inner tubes for me thanks. I know what my tyres look like after just three months of use on our roads, there is no chance tubeless will work (massive holes) and I wont touch hookless with a barge pole.
You are right! Roads are so dirty with glass in town and rocks and debris in the countryside. I prefer TPU as I use the bike every day, I am worried about having to pump too often with latex
I am happy with my integrated bar, but cables are exposed and not going through the stem and headtube. But we are the minority, it seems they all want no cables in sight!
So far my Zipp 353 NSW have not failed me yet. Did two century ride few 50 milers so far so good. I’ve been riding with it for 2 years. All I did was change the rim tape and changed the sealant every 6 months.
This talk makes no sense. I'm not a medical doctor, if I were to say "this treatment/operation makes no sense, who on earth would think this is a good idea" it would be stupid. It doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you or not, you're not trained in the field.
I don't think this way of thinking is really applicable to this subject. We are not talking quantum physics and some practical deductions can be easily understood. Even so I linked a video from someone with more knowledge to explain in details the technicalities of hookless. What I really wanted to point out is the explanation that Zipp and Vittoria gave to the accident. Are you comfortable that a rock impact could cause the tyre to dislodge like that? I find this excuse really poor.
@@fede1275Of course a simple impact causing this kind of thing is not acceptable, and expert opinions are always valuable. However someone not trained in the field to talk like "who came up with this idea ... it's really beyond me" is silly at best. To be 100% clear, both of my road bikes have hookless wheels (ZIPP 303s and Mavic Allroad SL) and I'm slowly looking into replacing them. My criticism is for the talk, I'm not arguing against that hookless is probably not safe.
@@sz12359 I believe some poetic licence can be allowed in this case. Could they not develop a rim with a retaining lip that could also work well with a tubeless set up? I can't see the point of straight edges, unless it makes tubeless so much better? Still can't understand...
It’s not that difficult to read a chart and stay within the limits. I am 100kg and ride at 60f 65r on 28’s on Zipp 404’s. Never had an issue. One puncture that sealed and I replaced the tires the next ride as they were damaged. I’m no pro so YMMV. Lol. Switching to 30’s for more comfort.
After discs, electronic shifting and internal routing there’s really no more problems to fix. So in order to innovate the industry introduces new problems. Look at the new Giant TCR, it’s almost exactly the same as last year’s model.
Exactly. Unless the UCI decides to review the basic shape of the bikes, there is nothing to improve on. Bikes like the TCR or the Ultimate are still the overall best choice. Aero specific frames are useful on a much narrower applications.
In part you are correct. However, tubeless offers faster rolling resistance than tubes and better puncture protection, that's why all pro mountain bikes run tubeless setups on their rims. Tubeless for road bikes can work but it depends on the wheel manufacture's wheel design and the tire being fitted on it. For example Giant make hookless wheels from Cadex or Giant and paired with a Giant tubeless specific tire which has a reinforced bead works well. I have a Giant Wheel setup with Giant tubeless tires and I have not had any issues so far with them over a year now. I believe problems can occur when people pair hookless wheels with branded tires that may not be suitable for that specific wheel. Another issue is that when you buy a bike now, the salesperson in the shop usually fails to mention that the wheels are hookless and what this means for the buyer. So Manufactures and bike shops are not doing very well in communicating the benefits and pitfalls of hookless wheels and how to maintain them. Also, unfortunately once one goes to hookless wheels and tires it is very difficult to change back to a clincher setup with those wheels. of course one could simply buy a hooked wheelset with tubes and change them on their bike.
Yes, I agree. If we just look at road set up, I believe a TPU or latex tube set up is as fast as tubeless, maybe not the same comfort. I understand that it works if we follow all the correct indications, maybe there are too many to follow for a good result.
I really don't know what to think about hookless. I'm on hookless rims because my bike came with that technology. I have never had any problem over four years and I did some really fast descents on the Italian Alps. I can't see any of the reputable brands which embraced the hookless technology put their customers in danger. On the other hand you can see that manufacturers are still split on this hookless/hooked debate unlike it happened with disc brakes where eventually all manufacturers switched to discs. Curious to see what will be the outcome of the UCI investigation.
I hope that these incidents would be just unfortunate episodes. It’s just that looking at a road tyre and thinking that there is no retaining lip makes me uncomfortable
Tade Pogacar rides hookless wheels. I wonder why he is not crashing. Issue is not with hookless, issue is with shitty mechanics. I wonder, do you think cheap carbon brands from china are pushing the hookless propaganda?!
It's difficult to think pro mechanics are less qualified than the average user, but anything can happen. It seems to me hookless is being pushed by the bigger manufacturers to keep their competitive advantage
@@fede1275 What’s wrong with competitive advantage?! I thought in school they teach how to stay ahead of your competitors or you end up being left behind. If the product is safe nothing wrong with staying competitive. Here is more question of how complicated this mess is; should I, as a user, be able to sue UCI for allowing Enve to sell me a pair of UCI approved set of wheels? Side note: As far as pro mechanics on the world tour, the only pro shit they can do is change parts. I can teach any kid to do what they do. Replacing di2, axs or eps parts and putting fucking tubes on tires doesn’t require any professional skill. There is a TH-cam channel that showcases some of these “pro mechanics” building bikes for riders; it’s painful to watch… my favorite part is watching them pretend to fit a bike with slammed 140 stem and 2 sizes smaller. I f love it. Recently a pro world tour head mechanic was explaining how to buy the correct size bike. I asked do you force riders to ride smaller bikes so they can be more aero no matter what it takes? He said you tell me… I don’t know anything about that.
@@bendardania I should have worded it better, to "artificially keep their competitive advantage". I am happy to accept innovations, as long as they provide a tangible benefit. Di2 is great, if it makes you win, then the price is justified. Do you want an aero bike? Great, if it makes you happy and you smash your PR, then we are all happy. I can see benefits for discs brakes, even if they don't apply to my riding style. With hookless rims I am struggling to find a real benefit for this particular tech design.
@@fede1275 I’ve seen your content in the past, clearly you know what you like. Instead of trying to convince you about any of the new technology I think you would be a very good person to try this new technology. I don’t think you will like it. I don’t like it personally, but I think you will understand it better. I am not the one that invented hookless wheel but i know enough to understand it. I will explain it like this. And this is not something you will ever hear any executive tell you… they will actually deny it. UCI weight limit is 6.8kg. Rim brake tech was easily at that limit. Disc brakes make bikes heavier. Because the group-sets are heavier. Disc brakes help sell more bikes. John Doe who has never ridden a bike, can brake easier, not better, with disc brake. How, well easy… this is how: if you have a disc brake bike with size 23 or 19 tires you gonna kill yourself with skinny tires. But if you have 30 tires than they can definitely feel a little more safe descending, and cornering. But and this is a where the problem arises bigger tires means the bike is heavier. So how you solve this problem; well you create this new technology, called hookless which allows the spread of the tire even at 28 mm to flare at 31 in some cases. They will be a little more soft to ride and the reason why they are on the road bike is because they will help you ride safer feel more comfortable and still keep the bike light. As far as rim brake: disc brake debate, the reality of it is, we paid for road bikes with rim brakes, even more than what they cost now if you take in consideration inflation. It’s hard to make a whale swim like a dolphin.( when an overweight person doesn’t want to lose weight, disc brakes still make it possible to ride like a hero 😜) That’s what I think and I’m sticking with it. :).
@@bendardania I follow your logic and timeline of the events. I agree that discs feel better for some users and with that power it is almost necessary to run wider tyres at lower pressures. Where I am still struggling is how actually lighter hookless rims are. Would not they be able to go with a hooked wide rim to have the same outcome?
I do not like hookless. But here’s an unpopular opinion: for us to rant on hookless when we don’t (and have never) ran hookless is like people hating on Apple iPhone but have never used them. Or people hating on Specialized but have never ridden a Specialized bike 😂
Ps: I ride a svelte Orbea Orca and I had the privilege to test ride the newest Spesh Allez Sprint. The new Allez Sprint is damn good. Top notch ride quality.
But you can look at the specs and price of something and determine it's overpriced and dumb. Like Apple phones, when you can get an android with better everything and it's cheaper.
it would be hilarious to see the pro peloton go full circle gluing tyre lips to the hookless walls for safety, at that point just make tubulars with built in sealant.
I believe if it was down to the riders they will still be riding tubulars. They stopped them as they are not practical for the every day rider. Pro cycling gear has to be relevant for the normal users, so pros have to ride what people want to buy. In cycling the consumers dictate what the racers use
I see loads of vitoria air liners flying out hooked mtb rims on the trails aswell the Bright green foam is a new thing on the trails never see a cushcore or others flying out it's all the airline's
Yes. I’m interested to see the outcome. I’m running the 303s. I’ve not had any issues so far, but at 60kg I’m running pressures that are well within the limit. Obviously the tyre fit is critical to the system. And I don’t use those tyre liners, which I think made matters worse. My one near disaster was with tubes on my other wheel, where a puddle concealed a pothole, and I suffered snakebite punctures to both wheels. I appreciate the hookless design is cheaper to make, so I am keen to understand what went wrong. It’ll be annoying if I had to change wheels as a result. 🤔
I was going to comment about mountain bikes having hookless rims for years, without any problems and look at the riggers they’re put through? But sadly it’s the same old story. Whenever something new comes out like for example discs? Everyone puts their puritan hats on, brandishes their pitchforks, heads for the town square screaming “WITCHCRAFT!…IT BE WITCHCRAFT I TELL YOU!!”🙄
@@fede1275 Everything is just new tech for the sake of it. None of these companies make stuff just for fun, they make things to make money and that is all. The idea of an industry is to make things people want and then make as much profit as possible selling them! Be honest do you really think any bike is worth £3K, never mind 12K??? No it’s just really excellent marketing to maximise profit. Does anyone really need disc brakes and electric gears? Not really, mechanical were really good and good quality rim brakes are 80-90% as good as discs. Yet we’ve bought Di2 hydraulic disc groupsets in the millions and absolutely love them. We all got sucked in to the marketing blurb. So that said, is there a problem with hookless rims? Does it really matter? If there is and they don’t get it solved quickly, then like many other things they with go to the bad cycle product graveyard in the sky. But what if there isn’t a problem, this time next year everyone will be singing its praises. But I guarantee there will always be someone in puritan’s hat shouting “Witchcraft!” Because people just don’t like change, but change brings the opportunity for more profit! Blessings from Dorset. 🙏😎👍🏻
@@fede1275 I see your point, but I’d say it’s always new tech for the sake of profit. Some stuff works and sells massively, other stuff doesn’t and dies off really quickly. But without product development driven by profit we wouldn’t have lovely stuff like carbon frames, super lightweight wheels and Di2. But a lot of the comments are written as if the cycling industry is really evil. But they’re not, they just trying to make products they think we’ll want to buy and then market them and sell them to us at a massive profit. It just simple commerce not witchcraft. 😎👍🏻
It doesn't look like the manufacturers know about them either... Zipp and Vittoria told us that hitting a rock can cause the tyre to come off, not sure we can be satisfied with that
@@fede1275 more the team “pro” mechanics. Follow the ERTRO guidance perhaps and see if you have the same issue. Why did the team release a statement claiming they were obliged to run a 28mm Tyre by the UCI when there’s no such limit? Why does the Manufacturer state one thing and the governing tyre safety body state another? The industry is a mess full of misinformation and clueless consumers. And frankly this TH-cam topic is doing more to spread misinformation than to educate. A customer shouldn’t have to do homework to ensure their bike is safe to ride and they’re well with the guidelines. It should be explained thoroughly at the point of sale. ENVE have been doing hookless for nearly a decade now with no such incidents. Suddenly a tyre too narrow for the internal width blows off and everyone thinks they’re being shafted by the companies. Hookless is a choice and if you weren’t given that choice then take that up with whoever you bought the bike from.
I have giant slr hookles rims combined with Continental Gp5000 28 mm tubeless and with right pressure issaued by the manufacturer it works just fine. However I did had one set of clincher tyres on same wheels and it worked just as same although it might have been a dumb idea
The only reason this idea is being pushed is to make manufacturing cheaper and easier . There are no other benefits.
The cost savings are not passed down to the wheel buyer... so this isn't a benefit for us!
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me why, using the same exact internal width rim and same exact width tires, they believe just because it's hookless, you can run 10+psi less than a tubeless+hooked setup. They just say "hookless is more comfortable because you can run less psi!" well why can you run less psi given the same inner rim width? they don't know what to say.
100% nothing to do with the end user it's all about manufacturing cost
totally agree.. glad I don't own any hookless wheels
Rant away Federico, completely agree, the industry is losing touch with reality
Absolutely agree with you Federico!
Total agreement from another old and grey Man 😉
👴😀
Hookless: I would never go there. Tubeless: I would never go back.
It wasn't Josh pushing new technology; it was Martin the Accountant pointing out that they could save 98 cents per wheel in manufacturing costs!
You are right. Martin, you're fired as well!
I'd never feel confident on my bike if I had to worry about my tyre pressure being within a certain range for it not to blow off my rim.
The manufacturer warnings about tyre pressure read as "DANGER NOT SAFE" to me.
Exactly this - if I have to sweat over the 1% inaccuracy on my pump pressure gauge then the 'technology' is a snake oil sale.
I'm going old school and glue my tubulars on, LOL!😂😂😂
I’d rather be old skool & grey than have an issue on the open road thank you very much, 23/25c hooked & alloy handlebar & stem is sufficiently safe & light enough for me!
I could not agree more. I enjoy the durability and reliability of alloy bars. May cost me a 25 grams but they are safer, cheaper, light enough and not a concern if I go down.
Second rate brands, which want to save on production costs, and have a "vision" of another useless standard like many before. DT Swiss has totally ignored this trend, and kept traditional proven technology.
DT Swiss are a quality company if they aren't keen it says an awful lot.
Your behind the times Fred I have hookless they are lighter, faster you never flat. I average 50 kph on my commute since I installed them, I just hire I road sweeper to ride behind so I have no rocks to hit and a huge aero benefit from the massive road sweeper ahead 😉
😂😂
Lighter by how much...... 😮
@@krissk77 12kg lighter, so my bike is now -4 pound in weight so I can literally float up climbs now.
Yup, I need my hook wheels, broke my clavicle once riding my bike don’t need to do it again.
completely agree. No more Zipp or ENVE for me until they mend their ways.
And I always desired a set of 404 rim brakes wheels, they just went too far with hookless
Do you recall tobacco companies telling us cigarettes were safe? This sounds familiar... "hookless wheels are safe". It's a diabolical lie.
Good analogy
This is just a conspiracy theory.
Hookless is nothing I want any part of, I would have to be right at the limit with the pressure because of my size. 🤙
On this subject, I can agree 100%.
it's another absolute gimmick
100% accurate 👌🏾👍🏾
If professional riders want to go hookless, so be it, all regular cyclists should just boycott this dangerous trend.
I suspect pro riders are using hookless because it's what manufacturers sell. They would still be riding tubulars if it was down to them
RedBull don’t grow you wings and hoekless wheels don’t lock your tires, who gonna suit them first?
It was my (approved) tyre that blew off in my kitchen. If everything is just fine, hookless is just fine. The problem is that, in life, things sometimes aren't fine. Mistakes happen, and quality control sometimes isn't perfect. So you have a risk that wasn't there before. Look at aviation - they would never introduce an extra risk like that. They try to eliminate risk. The old adage 'if something can go wrong it will' holds true here. Hooked wheels have a proven safety fallback. Don't remove it.
Absolutely, I feel nervous already going down at 70 Km/h and I would rather avoid any further doubt in my head
My son and I have run two different Zipp hookless wheelsets on our two bikes even before I heard of these blow off issues. We run different brand 28 mm tlr tires on these bikes. We have had no issues in over a year using them. Just follow the recommended tire pressures and you will have no problem. I feel safe on these rims and tires.
That's great. I'm just disappointed that the industry seems not to cater for different choices, all going in one direction
I think you are onto it with the competition from the china brands. Zipp and Enve saw that they suddenly had a cap on their ability to raise prices going forward and still sell wheels. If you no longer have a path to improve profits by raising prices, you have to rely solely on cutting costs. Welcome to hookless.
Yes, especially considering that a cheap carbon wheelset nowadays delivers good performance and it’s difficult to justify the prices for the marginal gains
They are meant for weight winnies... anything that reduces bike weight they buy even if there is no benefit.... marketing
The sealant needs to be replaced three to six months. What a nightmare.
I knew from day one there is no way I’m going to ride these. People can talk lab numbers all day; it doesn’t matter. There is no discernible difference or competitive advantage. It’s an advancement in technology that is no advance at all.
Thank you for your insight and video film .
Who came up with the idea? An accountant.
He might have miscalculated the outcome…
Excellent. I even gave up on tubeless w/hooked wheels. It’s such a mess, and not practical. I always had the punctures where the sealant refuses to seal. It happened every time. The sealant makes a huge mess and ends up giving riders around me the infamous “Pearl Necklace”.
I went back to tubes.. and use RideNow tpu. I love them. Cheap, especially in bulk. So light- especially when used on top of the line clincher only rated tires. A little more puncture resistance, but do seem to leak out a bit over a few days.
Hookless is just not a safe technology .. maybe mountain bikes.. But I know of mountain bikers having disasters as well due to blowouts.
As you know I’m for tpu on clinchers!
depends which sealant in my experience
Tubeless incredible. Hookless silly
No, you absolutely got it all right! The industry is constantly fixing things that aren’t broken! All in the name of the almighty dollar. Tubeless is a great example of this. What an unnecessary pain in the ass that is! If I get a flat, I change it with my CO2’s I less than 10 minutes, and off I go. Thanks for sharing your opinion brother, hope the industry wakes up, and fixes all this BS before somebody gets killed. Also, this mindset is literally losing them money, not making more, by losing many customers like me. I have used and loved Zipps for years. I was recently in the market for new wheels, so of course I went looking for the new 404’s. Then I saw the hookless, with a max psi of 73. I am 220 lbs, and run 25’s at 110-120. Super fast, zero road resistance, and zero flats. Zipp gives you no choice, so I bought another brand, a loss of over $2000 for Zipp!👊😎🚴🏻🚴🏻
Very well said. I can accept maybe 110 PSI is hard, but 70 or so is way too low. 28 or 30 tyres might be better for comfort, I don’t think they are in the same performance category as 23 or 25
@@fede1275Exactly!👊😜🚴🏻
tubless + hookless are logical combination. but hooked rims and tubeless are have the same problem. hooked rims + tire + inner tube = propper pressure to hold tire on rim - it's bulletproof
Another interesting video Federico. As others have said, why change a design (hooked) that is proven and not dangerous, that's right it's cheaper to produce. Good idea in principal but in practice not.
Reminds me of the crazy EV push at the moment
It's all about money for the companies
I could understand if there was a benefit attached to it
That’s another conspiracy theory.
yup...have those 303 s hookless with tubless setup...glad people are afraid of them...must be the reason they are so cheap...anyways gave me the best rides ever...don't buy them! they are genius
Hookless rims are ok on cars because car tires have a far more rigid structure and have metallic beads maintaining the tire in place whatever the pressure. On road bike, the thinness of the tire would require to only use tires with rigid beads not folding ones.
Do the engineers and designers ride using these ...some tech belong to prototypes and on the desk. Hooked rims anytime...and clincher geek here.
This is another case of large companies forcing a change that benefits them and no one else. It translates into less choice for the rider, greater cost for the product and in some cases perhaps greater risks to the rider. But if the bottom line looks good and profits rise; I guess the thinking is carry on. What next?
I've got an hookless rim with my giant TCR. You need to get compatible tyres following the manufacturer specifications. You need to stick to the prescribed pressure. Here all the cons end. All the rest is just pros. You fit the tubeless tyre literally with a normal pump, no compressor needed. The wheel is actually lighter but I don't matter. 2 years on, never got a flat, and I rode the whole Strade Bianche on a Continental Granprix 5000 25mm. I went over holes, stones. One time my tyre got stuck on cobblestones, I hit the ground, the tyre was in place.
I think that most of the issue we see today are due to a misuse of the tyre, mainly due to pressure. In the UAE desert they pumped the tyres in air conditioned places and put it on the hot road. The pressure increase caused the issue in my opinion.
The pressure limits are not well communicated and/or underestimated by old school riders...
Maybe it's just me, but it seems that for some wheels/tyres combinations the cons might be more than the pros. Issues happened not just at UAE and we expect pro mechanics to understand how to set up these tyres. Or maybe I'm just too old school to understand
Im more interested in why hookless doesn’t work for road bike tires. It must be something to do with the tires because hookless IS NOT new.. if you look at motorcycle or car rims, they don’t have hooks… and they have far higher forces exerted on them.
Odd.
I guess it’s a completely different construction. Road and motorbike tyres are way more rigid
@@fede1275 yeah that’s my guess too, must be to do with the tires. They tend to have a stronger bead. This might be why hookless is fine for MTB
I think the march to hook less is inevitable. It costs less to make so it well take 10 years for the cycle to complete. Threaded bottom brackets is an example. The press fit was cheaper to make but they had problems and guess what, we are now back at square one
It's a pity that the industry can't cope with different products and set ups, has to be the same for all and pros have to ride what the consumer are offered to buy
Please tell me the same thing will happen with fully integrated front ends 😢!
Yeah, but before that though, lets try adding some grippy glue to the sidewalls of the tires before mounting them on the rims. Similar thing as the grippy paste applied to the seatposts and stems. That just might solve the problem. 🤣! I refuse to use any component that requires a paste to hold it in place. Not a fan of carbon fiber either.
For a roadie, tubeless and hookless won't ever make sense because there's really no huge gain. For gravel it's been there for ages and it's just lack of experience with it
Makes sense!
Great video. Apparently Zipp released new tyre size recommendation. Normally, big established companies will go through deep R&D, and manufacturing QC. I wonder if such accident was the case of (somewhat) improper mix & match, or QC, or R&D not being deep enough, or all of those.
@@abhimawa1 it could be a combination of all these things, but the most important outcome is that the margin is too thin for me to use hookless on road bikes. I understand pro cyclists put more stress on the equipment, but if their technicians can get it wrong, so amateurs could also get it wrong. Hooked rims with tubes for me.
Totally agree, hooks for me.
I bought me new China Carbon rims from CSC for 350 EUR. Theyre hooked and with tubes. Totally happy and to me safer than ZIPPs.
I am sure they will be a good performance improvement, I had great results with my Prime RR-50 V3 wheels
Yip! Hooked rims with latex inner tubes for me thanks. I know what my tyres look like after just three months of use on our roads, there is no chance tubeless will work (massive holes) and I wont touch hookless with a barge pole.
You are right! Roads are so dirty with glass in town and rocks and debris in the countryside. I prefer TPU as I use the bike every day, I am worried about having to pump too often with latex
I like my steel frame bike with alloy rims and tubes, it doesn't feel like a pothole or a faulty pressure gauge on the pup will send me to A&E.
I remember the great feeling of a steel frame from my very old Bianchi Selvino touring bike i had in my teens
Tubeless tires are too tight to get on/off on hooked rims. Been stuck on roadside several times. Relieved to get hookless - so much better
Makes sense
I'll add full front-end integration to the list of things i really can't see the point of doing beyond aesthetics!
I am happy with my integrated bar, but cables are exposed and not going through the stem and headtube. But we are the minority, it seems they all want no cables in sight!
The Industry just wants your ££££$$$$
I know , but they have to provide tangible benefits!
Hai perfettamente raggione
👍👍
So far my Zipp 353 NSW have not failed me yet. Did two century ride few 50 milers so far so good. I’ve been riding with it for 2 years. All I did was change the rim tape and changed the sealant every 6 months.
This talk makes no sense. I'm not a medical doctor, if I were to say "this treatment/operation makes no sense, who on earth would think this is a good idea" it would be stupid. It doesn't matter whether it makes sense to you or not, you're not trained in the field.
I don't think this way of thinking is really applicable to this subject. We are not talking quantum physics and some practical deductions can be easily understood. Even so I linked a video from someone with more knowledge to explain in details the technicalities of hookless. What I really wanted to point out is the explanation that Zipp and Vittoria gave to the accident. Are you comfortable that a rock impact could cause the tyre to dislodge like that? I find this excuse really poor.
@@fede1275Of course a simple impact causing this kind of thing is not acceptable, and expert opinions are always valuable. However someone not trained in the field to talk like "who came up with this idea ... it's really beyond me" is silly at best.
To be 100% clear, both of my road bikes have hookless wheels (ZIPP 303s and Mavic Allroad SL) and I'm slowly looking into replacing them. My criticism is for the talk, I'm not arguing against that hookless is probably not safe.
@@sz12359 I believe some poetic licence can be allowed in this case. Could they not develop a rim with a retaining lip that could also work well with a tubeless set up? I can't see the point of straight edges, unless it makes tubeless so much better? Still can't understand...
Grande come sempre 💪. Thank you Federico.
Grazie mille!
I'll pass
It’s not that difficult to read a chart and stay within the limits. I am 100kg and ride at 60f 65r on 28’s on Zipp 404’s. Never had an issue. One puncture that sealed and I replaced the tires the next ride as they were damaged. I’m no pro so YMMV. Lol. Switching to 30’s for more comfort.
Yes, maybe pro should have stayed with tubulars. Their mechanics seem no good either
After discs, electronic shifting and internal routing there’s really no more problems to fix. So in order to innovate the industry introduces new problems. Look at the new Giant TCR, it’s almost exactly the same as last year’s model.
Exactly. Unless the UCI decides to review the basic shape of the bikes, there is nothing to improve on. Bikes like the TCR or the Ultimate are still the overall best choice. Aero specific frames are useful on a much narrower applications.
In part you are correct. However, tubeless offers faster rolling resistance than tubes and better puncture protection, that's why all pro mountain bikes run tubeless setups on their rims. Tubeless for road bikes can work but it depends on the wheel manufacture's wheel design and the tire being fitted on it. For example Giant make hookless wheels from Cadex or Giant and paired with a Giant tubeless specific tire which has a reinforced bead works well. I have a Giant Wheel setup with Giant tubeless tires and I have not had any issues so far with them over a year now. I believe problems can occur when people pair hookless wheels with branded tires that may not be suitable for that specific wheel. Another issue is that when you buy a bike now, the salesperson in the shop usually fails to mention that the wheels are hookless and what this means for the buyer. So Manufactures and bike shops are not doing very well in communicating the benefits and pitfalls of hookless wheels and how to maintain them. Also, unfortunately once one goes to hookless wheels and tires it is very difficult to change back to a clincher setup with those wheels. of course one could simply buy a hooked wheelset with tubes and change them on their bike.
Yes, I agree. If we just look at road set up, I believe a TPU or latex tube set up is as fast as tubeless, maybe not the same comfort. I understand that it works if we follow all the correct indications, maybe there are too many to follow for a good result.
I really don't know what to think about hookless. I'm on hookless rims because my bike came with that technology. I have never had any problem over four years and I did some really fast descents on the Italian Alps. I can't see any of the reputable brands which embraced the hookless technology put their customers in danger.
On the other hand you can see that manufacturers are still split on this hookless/hooked debate unlike it happened with disc brakes where eventually all manufacturers switched to discs. Curious to see what will be the outcome of the UCI investigation.
I hope that these incidents would be just unfortunate episodes. It’s just that looking at a road tyre and thinking that there is no retaining lip makes me uncomfortable
Tade Pogacar rides hookless wheels. I wonder why he is not crashing. Issue is not with hookless, issue is with shitty mechanics.
I wonder, do you think cheap carbon brands from china are pushing the hookless propaganda?!
It's difficult to think pro mechanics are less qualified than the average user, but anything can happen. It seems to me hookless is being pushed by the bigger manufacturers to keep their competitive advantage
@@fede1275 What’s wrong with competitive advantage?! I thought in school they teach how to stay ahead of your competitors or you end up being left behind. If the product is safe nothing wrong with staying competitive.
Here is more question of how complicated this mess is; should I, as a user, be able to sue UCI for allowing Enve to sell me a pair of UCI approved set of wheels?
Side note: As far as pro mechanics on the world tour, the only pro shit they can do is change parts. I can teach any kid to do what they do. Replacing di2, axs or eps parts and putting fucking tubes on tires doesn’t require any professional skill. There is a TH-cam channel that showcases some of these “pro mechanics” building bikes for riders; it’s painful to watch… my favorite part is watching them pretend to fit a bike with slammed 140 stem and 2 sizes smaller. I f love it. Recently a pro world tour head mechanic was explaining how to buy the correct size bike. I asked do you force riders to ride smaller bikes so they can be more aero no matter what it takes? He said you tell me… I don’t know anything about that.
@@bendardania I should have worded it better, to "artificially keep their competitive advantage". I am happy to accept innovations, as long as they provide a tangible benefit. Di2 is great, if it makes you win, then the price is justified. Do you want an aero bike? Great, if it makes you happy and you smash your PR, then we are all happy. I can see benefits for discs brakes, even if they don't apply to my riding style. With hookless rims I am struggling to find a real benefit for this particular tech design.
@@fede1275 I’ve seen your content in the past, clearly you know what you like. Instead of trying to convince you about any of the new technology I think you would be a very good person to try this new technology. I don’t think you will like it. I don’t like it personally, but I think you will understand it better.
I am not the one that invented hookless wheel but i know enough to understand it. I will explain it like this. And this is not something you will ever hear any executive tell you… they will actually deny it.
UCI weight limit is 6.8kg. Rim brake tech was easily at that limit.
Disc brakes make bikes heavier. Because the group-sets are heavier. Disc brakes help sell more bikes. John Doe who has never ridden a bike, can brake easier, not better, with disc brake. How, well easy… this is how: if you have a disc brake bike with size 23 or 19 tires you gonna kill yourself with skinny tires. But if you have 30 tires than they can definitely feel a little more safe descending, and cornering. But and this is a where the problem arises bigger tires means the bike is heavier. So how you solve this problem; well you create this new technology, called hookless which allows the spread of the tire even at 28 mm to flare at 31 in some cases. They will be a little more soft to ride and the reason why they are on the road bike is because they will help you ride safer feel more comfortable and still keep the bike light.
As far as rim brake: disc brake debate, the reality of it is, we paid for road bikes with rim brakes, even more than what they cost now if you take in consideration inflation. It’s hard to make a whale swim like a dolphin.( when an overweight person doesn’t want to lose weight, disc brakes still make it possible to ride like a hero 😜)
That’s what I think and I’m sticking with it. :).
@@bendardania I follow your logic and timeline of the events. I agree that discs feel better for some users and with that power it is almost necessary to run wider tyres at lower pressures. Where I am still struggling is how actually lighter hookless rims are. Would not they be able to go with a hooked wide rim to have the same outcome?
Frederico, you make far too much sense most of the time. That's why I really enjoy watching your videos. Keep up the good work! Cheers! 👍
I appreciate that!
"Collective Drunkness" is the most accurate description I've heard to date! 😂
We are all falling for that 😂
Maybe on a cycling track, a wooden one at that?
I do not like hookless. But here’s an unpopular opinion: for us to rant on hookless when we don’t (and have never) ran hookless is like people hating on Apple iPhone but have never used them. Or people hating on Specialized but have never ridden a Specialized bike 😂
Ps: I ride a svelte Orbea Orca and I had the privilege to test ride the newest Spesh Allez Sprint. The new Allez Sprint is damn good. Top notch ride quality.
But you can look at the specs and price of something and determine it's overpriced and dumb. Like Apple phones, when you can get an android with better everything and it's cheaper.
@@Silidons91 yea, but it’s still not an iPhone.
it would be hilarious to see the pro peloton go full circle gluing tyre lips to the hookless walls for safety, at that point just make tubulars with built in sealant.
I believe if it was down to the riders they will still be riding tubulars. They stopped them as they are not practical for the every day rider. Pro cycling gear has to be relevant for the normal users, so pros have to ride what people want to buy. In cycling the consumers dictate what the racers use
I see loads of vitoria air liners flying out hooked mtb rims on the trails aswell the Bright green foam is a new thing on the trails never see a cushcore or others flying out it's all the airline's
Interesting, who knows if it’s down to the liners?
Hookless is a different kind of clincher system found in the buttock region when riding those extra fast descents🤟
😂
Yes. I’m interested to see the outcome. I’m running the 303s. I’ve not had any issues so far, but at 60kg I’m running pressures that are well within the limit. Obviously the tyre fit is critical to the system. And I don’t use those tyre liners, which I think made matters worse. My one near disaster was with tubes on my other wheel, where a puddle concealed a pothole, and I suffered snakebite punctures to both wheels.
I appreciate the hookless design is cheaper to make, so I am keen to understand what went wrong. It’ll be annoying if I had to change wheels as a result. 🤔
Hookless is the future. When tubeless arrived alot of people who don´t even ride went nuts whenever a crash occurred.
Maybe those liners are indeed making it worse
This clinches it for me!!!
😄😄
Carbon frames
Disc brakes
Tubeless
Reaction of some old people when these things came:
Love carbon frames, I can see why people like discs and tubeless, can’t find a benefit in hookless
I was going to comment about mountain bikes having hookless rims for years, without any problems and look at the riggers they’re put through? But sadly it’s the same old story. Whenever something new comes out like for example discs? Everyone puts their puritan hats on, brandishes their pitchforks, heads for the town square screaming “WITCHCRAFT!…IT BE WITCHCRAFT I TELL YOU!!”🙄
It's really a fair assessment on what benefit the new tech can bring. Or it's just new for the sake of it?
@@fede1275 Everything is just new tech for the sake of it. None of these companies make stuff just for fun, they make things to make money and that is all. The idea of an industry is to make things people want and then make as much profit as possible selling them! Be honest do you really think any bike is worth £3K, never mind 12K??? No it’s just really excellent marketing to maximise profit. Does anyone really need disc brakes and electric gears? Not really, mechanical were really good and good quality rim brakes are 80-90% as good as discs. Yet we’ve bought Di2 hydraulic disc groupsets in the millions and absolutely love them. We all got sucked in to the marketing blurb.
So that said, is there a problem with hookless rims? Does it really matter? If there is and they don’t get it solved quickly, then like many other things they with go to the bad cycle product graveyard in the sky. But what if there isn’t a problem, this time next year everyone will be singing its praises. But I guarantee there will always be someone in puritan’s hat shouting “Witchcraft!” Because people just don’t like change, but change brings the opportunity for more profit!
Blessings from Dorset. 🙏😎👍🏻
@@fede1275 I see your point, but I’d say it’s always new tech for the sake of profit. Some stuff works and sells massively, other stuff doesn’t and dies off really quickly. But without product development driven by profit we wouldn’t have lovely stuff like carbon frames, super lightweight wheels and Di2. But a lot of the comments are written as if the cycling industry is really evil. But they’re not, they just trying to make products they think we’ll want to buy and then market them and sell them to us at a massive profit. It just simple commerce not witchcraft. 😎👍🏻
People who know nothing about hookless commenting about hookless. TH-cam this week 🤦♂️
It doesn't look like the manufacturers know about them either... Zipp and Vittoria told us that hitting a rock can cause the tyre to come off, not sure we can be satisfied with that
@@fede1275 more the team “pro” mechanics. Follow the ERTRO guidance perhaps and see if you have the same issue. Why did the team release a statement claiming they were obliged to run a 28mm Tyre by the UCI when there’s no such limit? Why does the Manufacturer state one thing and the governing tyre safety body state another? The industry is a mess full of misinformation and clueless consumers. And frankly this TH-cam topic is doing more to spread misinformation than to educate.
A customer shouldn’t have to do homework to ensure their bike is safe to ride and they’re well with the guidelines. It should be explained thoroughly at the point of sale. ENVE have been doing hookless for nearly a decade now with no such incidents. Suddenly a tyre too narrow for the internal width blows off and everyone thinks they’re being shafted by the companies. Hookless is a choice and if you weren’t given that choice then take that up with whoever you bought the bike from.
I love it! Its clickbait gold!
I have giant slr hookles rims combined with Continental Gp5000 28 mm tubeless and with right pressure issaued by the manufacturer it works just fine. However I did had one set of clincher tyres on same wheels and it worked just as same although it might have been a dumb idea
I really like Giant and hookless rims made me not buy!
Those that came up with this idea of hookless are a waste of their father's baby gravy 😉🤪
😂😂