it seems to be correct. I always had 700c wheels with narrow tyres - 23 or 25mm - but recently got a new bike with wider tyres (28mm) and suddenly I was setting PRs on my usual routes without trying (new bike is all road, old one is race, so new bike should be "slower"!)! Road surfaces are rough, which seems to be the deciding factor: narrower tyres on Spanish-perfect roads e.g. beats wider tyres.
@@fede1275 just the fact that you got used to something does not make it faster. It's just the only thing you know and are afraid of trying something new. Don't get me wrong I am also against marketing bullshit, hookles, road tubeless and all that shit. But wider tire does not cost more then narrow tire so not a big deal for companies here. But it is faster on longer rides, wears your body less - which in a result can help you recover faster, therefore train harder and more often. It's not just rolling resistance numbers bro, you have to look at the whole package and connect the dots.
I'm not arguing with these considerations at all. If these are your priorities, then wider tyres are perfect. I'm just prioritising performance over comfort in the sections I like to push hard with my friends. And in isolation I believe I'm faster with my lighter and more aero (same shape and less volume) wheels. I can accept to be slower on the rough patches, it's not my priority and I don't race so the overall time it's irrelevant
Ive recently returned to cycling after about 15 years and my head is bamboozled with all that has apparently changed. My 20 year old bike has 23s. Suprised im able to move at all 😅
As it goes for me. I have wide tires on my mountain bike and I own a really nice Panasonic from the 70s with narrow tires. I just couldn't pass it by. One owner, not a single scratch on it, brakes in perfect condition, no rust whatsoever, and I paid only $75.00. How can you go wrong? And to add, the chain when I bought it looked brand new.
One of the engineers of Newmen (Intermarche Wanty) shared the results of their experiments regarding this topic on a German forum. Here are the key takeaways: All different tire and rim width combinations are equally fast at the same comfort level (11w +/- 0.5). This means that compromises are made by considering the following points: - A 2mm increase in tire size adds about 20g per tire. - A 2mm increase in internal rim width results in approximately a 1mm increase in effective tire width. - The wider the tire/rim, the more comfort margin is available by reducing air pressure. - The wider the tire/rim, the lower the rolling resistance at the same air pressure. - Improved cornering and braking grip due to the changed tire contact area. - Better ride characteristics in the event of a puncture with low remaining pressure. - The wider the tire or rim, the lower the operating pressure, leading to the following advantages: - Less frequent inflation due to lower operating pressure. - Sealant can better close holes due to lower operating pressure. - Reduced risk of tires coming off the rim. It is important to note that a 2mm change in internal rim width corresponds to about a 1mm change in tire width. --> Almost all of these advantages can be achieved by increasing either the internal rim width or the tire width. +2mm tire width --> +1.6w +15mm rim height --> -1.5w
You pretty much made the case for wider tires. Depending on terrain and load, tire sizes and pressures could vary widely. 25C at 90PSi, for my weight, are ideal for riding on smooth tarmac. They're fast, nimble, and relatively flat resistant, but on dirt or gravel, their contact patch just isn't wide enough. I agree with Federico. Added weight is the caveat overlooked in bigger tires. ...
@@paulmcknight4137then buy a light tire. I roll on 28cm (31 wam) Michelin power cup clincher and they weight just 230g. That's as light as most 25c tires, many are even heavier. Never felt faster and more connected to the road. It gives more confidence and less body wear which makes me even faster the longer the ride.
@@fede1275 Aero resistance is the only drawback of wider tyres besides weight. For every 2mm increase in width, you have to add 15mm of rim height to compensate for aero drag. Picking the right tyre size and pressure has always been a compromise. Do the benefits of wider tyres (grip, cornering, braking, comfort margins, sealant working better, less blowouts) outweigh aero drag and weight penalty? Personally I would say that if performance (speed) is not your primary concern then it's very hard (or impossible) to argue against wider tyres. And with frames and rims getting optimized for wider tyres (pushed by the industry) they certainly won't get slower in the future ;)
I ride in Japan where roads are 95% perfect smooth tarmac. I have ridden 25c, 28c, 30c tires, both tubeless and clincher setup. Wider tires are pushed because of disc brakes. Tubeless and wider tires feels nice because of lower pressure, BUT, low pressure tires wear out so fast. Already flattening and visible wear after 300km or so. Grip etc? I aint feeling the difference. I only feel difference with regular side wall tires are the cotton walls (corsa g2, veloflex). 25c is the fastest for me where I set all my PRs on flats and climbs without proper training.
I don't think UAE are deliberately slowing themselves down because of sponsorship. They have a huge budget and can afford to choose. Tadej is as enthusiastic about his bike and components as anyone else, and it shows with the 'marginal gain' equipment he has on his bike. The tyres and wheels has the largest effect on the whole bike, so I very much doubt that he is going with 30mm to deliberately slow himself down.
Yeah the only teams that are limiting their performance due to sponsors are the poor one like the one mentioned here - cofidis. To think that Tadej would roll a slower setup due to sponsors is just pure craziness. This dude is all about marginal gains and UAE can buy whole enve company with their spare cash if they want.
@@davidlau2467 I suspect hookless and tubeless have more to do with the 30mm choice. Are other pro team ridind 26mm or so doing it to deliberately go slow?
he doesnt need wheels and tires to slow himself down, his riding style arguably lost him 2 tdf's. he raced much better this past year. the difference with his set up vs, the top tens is marginal and he still wins no matter what. why should he or the team care what they ride as long as theyre winning. this is why his strategy was so heavily criticized when it cost him big race wins, and so it was addressed. if a set up change meant winning or losing it would be addressed. also staying up right and not flatting is faster which is a huge advantage to bigger tires especially coming from the tt tires he had. on cobbles they all need to go wider for speed, so intention, knowing, and reality arent always harmonious.
Ahhhhhh, another rant based in feelings, Federico is a class act and deserves respect for how he brings attention to the issues he cares about, Rim vs Disc, narrow vs Wider, Steel vs Carbon, ETC, these controversies are omnipresent in the bike communities around the world but believe me when i tell you , HE who can take all prejudice and bias out of the evaluation will be rewarded with the best performance,
Conspiracy it may be, but a tiny bit different one I think. Changing entire ecosystem of frame clearance/rim/tyre is a good thing for a manufacturer because they don't really spend more to make it, but they can bump the prices up for "the latest and greatest" on all of those components. It doesn't mean it is eaither faster or slower though on an individual component level despite what marketologist say. Tyre size alone is all to easy to test. You may not even need to buy a second set if one of your mates has the same tyre in a different width. From my experience, I changed 25 grand sport to 28 gp5000 and got a bit faster. Is it because of width increase? I don't think so, probably just a better tyre. Half a year later my brother bought himself really cheap set of 32 gp5000 on sale for his rim brake bike and they didn't fit there but fit okay in my disc frame so we swapped the tyres. I didn't feel any difference in speed compared to 28 but the comfort level got to a different level. So my conclusion to this is if it doesn't slow me down I'd rather ride with more comfort albeit on a 50g heavier setup.
As has been said many times, biggest drag comes from the rider. As for tyre width: wider means more comfort for amateurs, and confidence for the pros during descending (as those pros reached out to 100kph) → remember Gino Mader & Remco’s early days → descending on S-bend at such speed. Btw, Remco is still using 26 cmiiw (?)
I ran 28s on my Ultimate rim brake and preferred the feel over 25s, couldn’t detect a change in speed but noticeably better comfort and grip in corners. Maybe just put some 28s on and see how the feel of the bike changes?
On my first road bike I used 25 mm tires. Then I switched to a new bike with 50 mm deep CF rims which were perfect for 23 mm tires width wise. So I began to use 23 mm tires and I use them ever since. I notice zero difference in comfort. They might be slightly less safe because pinch flats are more likely if I hit a rock on the road or something like that. Also, I feel huge difference on gravel. With 25 mm I can ride some for fun, on 23 mm it is best to avoid. I think that if you can ride on desired tire pressure without being afraid of pinch flats you don't need a bigger tire. On reasonably good paved roads the only difference in comfort is caused by placebo effect.
It’s really not that complicated. You’re bouncing over your terrain rather than your tyre conforming to it. Vibration losses alone that’s a huge factor to consider. Forget the comfort factor because everyone I’ve found still runs their pressure too high regardless of going to wider tyres. You’ve used Bullets as a comparison but not a single tube or profile on your bike follows such an aerodynamic profile. The only difference in aerodynamics would come from the tyre/rim transition and the difference in bulge between different sizes. This is negligible compared to the gain from a wider tyre in fatigue, cornering, rolling resistance, comfort, durability, ability to seal when running tubeless and so much more. Wide tyres perform the same on smooth terrain. Better on rough roads. Therefore better overall. I appreciate the open discussion and your opinions towards it. But data is data. You’re more than able to run these tests yourself. Perhaps try what you’re trying to argue against before giving your opinion. It’s just hearsay otherwise.
The bullet reference is to clarify the difference in overall volume between a 23 or 25mm set up vs 32 or 35mm. Even if you have the same good tyre/rim transition, you can't deny that the more volume would inherently have more aero drag. Also to mimic the same shape on a wider tyre and rim, you would have to increase the rim size and be more susceptible to sidewinds. All to say that yes, you can have more comfort and maybe similar speed. But not that wide are faster as a blank statement
@@fede1275 you are correct but the aero benefits don't come from the tip of the tire alone, you have to look at the whole package as it was and airplane nose, have you seen pointy , sharp airplane noses? because regardless how small the frontal area is and how it breaks the air, how it stays attached to the moving object( bike and rider) matters most , wider tires paired with wider rims do have few mm larger front impact but do a better job dealing with vibrations and integration with the rest of the modern frame. There is ZERO chance an old bike, round tubes, 25mm tires on Mavic alloy wheels is as fast as as a modern frame with wider tires on deep carbon wheels. Don't just take my word for it,data supports my claim
Just like you i have 25 years of experience and own several bikes, most of them are rim brake, i don't really care how fast they are vs modern , i have them all set up with the best that era had to offer and all ride beautifully but when i want performance my go to bike is Ritte Esprit , not even close. Fast, comfortable, versatile , i go mountain climbing, fast road, gravel or TT with the bike, have the Sram AXS groupset and can adjust the shifting and the gearing specifically to the ride i am about to do With 30mm deep wheels bike weight 6.8kg, with deep aero wheels about 7.1kg i can hand with anybody , i can install TT extensions with blips and do tt all day or squeeze 34mm gravel tire and gravel anywhere as long as is not too rough I adore bikes and appreciate the classics but i'm not naive or indoctrinated by no one , nothing can touch the Ritte Esprit for what it offers
@@ciprian7yes, I can get the airplane analogy. I just believe at the same modern aero shape and transition, a 25c tyre setup should be easier to cut the air than a 32c set up, only because of the volume
@@fede1275 How the air stays attached to the moving object is more important that where the air breaks, i am not trying to convince you of anything, there is plenty data and research out there . The only place where narrow, harder tires make sense is on the track where the rolling surface and variables are perfect and controlled . You ride what gives you joy but modern aero frame, wheels, tires make for superior performance when analyzed as a whole package
I have done my own testing. The 25c on front wheel and 28c on rear wheel is best solution for me on DT Swiss ARC 50 wheels. 28c on front wheel is slower and also gives me a dull riding feeling. I run Conti 5000 with plastic tubes 36 gram. I have no interest in hookless/tubelees/wide tires on my aero bike. Moving from 23c I have reduced tire pressure from 110 psi to 78 psi for most rides. It is working fine performance / comfort wise.
Most pro teams are using 28mm tyres at a minimum. UAE (team of Tadej Pogacar) have been running a minimum of 30mm tyres for the past two years, even on fast stages with smooth roads and lots of climbing. On stages with even a little bit of cobble or gravel, they run even wider tyres. You don't have to immediately throw away your
@@cannon1156 I am just arguing against the modern agenda. If they introduce new tech everything else needs to become obsolete. 23c and 25c tyres? Slower. Rim brake? Dangerous. It does not work like that.
I have been using 28c tires and sometimes wider, on my road bikes, for 40 years or more. I had to put up with less than educated comments about my choices. Now the dogma is all about wider tires. A faster tire has never been my objective when buying non competition Oriented rubber. This is what I want from the tires I chose for the road. Sufficient air volume. Lower air pressure will always be part of higher volume. Flexible casing that will deform to the road surface for less heat and lower rolling resistance. Along with maximizing grip and service life. The last thing on the list is Tan sidewalls! All black tires remind me of the garbage bikes that people brought into the shop. Huffy, Murry, free spirit. Resulting in me refusing mechanical service. Black sidewalls remind me of thin stamped sheet metal dropouts installed by smashing and spot welding. But on my track bike? About 23c pista tires with anywhere around 160 psi to over 220 psi depending on the event. If you want to test tires for rolling resistance? Go to your local velodrome with a power meter and try different tires at several inflation pressures. Rid at the same output and see how fast you are going. In my experience. Some tires are more than a mile per hour slower or faster than the mid range of efficiency. As a bicycle mechanic and racer. I was regularly disappointed about how much mythology, lack of common sense and factual knowledge reside in the bicycle pop culture sphere. But l must admit, it did make winning bicycle races easier.
Heavy rider at 100kg riding 28mm tyres 77 psi front 81 psi rear Most importantly 22.5mm internal width rims I used to ignore the type pressure calculators like sram and overinflate the tyres due to my weight But with a wider internal rim I have found 28mm or 30mm tyres are definitely faster and more comfortable due to the fact they expand to a size bigger and allow much lower pressures on rough uk roads Which makes the ride much more comfortable and gives more confidence in cornering etc
maybe I can explain why comfort = speed in this case. The discomfort of smaller tires comes from the little bumbs in the ground, if the tire is small and the pressure high this will cause the bike to move upwards instead of moving forward. On a narrower tire the bike therefore has less of its momentum move in the desired direction. And that explains the higher loss in rolling resistance. With a wider tire you stay planted on the streets and more of your energy is put into moving forward. However less vibration gives you less of a feedback for the speed that you are riding. I always feel slower on wider tires because of that, but when I look at my power and speed I see that I'm faster. I just got 32mm wide rims for my road bike, same hubs and same tires. This change alone made me 0.5 km/h faster compared to the 28mm at a power of 200W on normal road surfaces. Yet they didn't feel as fast, but I break my PRs all the times since I have them.
I am not arguing with this theory, however is strange that it took almost 100 years of cycling to discover this? Has anyone ever tried in the previous years to see if actually wider tyres were faster? Or lower pressure in case? In cycling it seems that the law of physics suddenly change whenever it suits? Same for the argument of weight vs aero, when it is now seems to go back to weight?
Apart from aero, some of the claims are that the lower pressures on wider tyres cause less fatigue and keep the rider a little bit fresher and stronger as the ride goes on. When I switched from 25s to 28s on my Canyon Ultimate, I didn't feel quite as beaten up after a 50+ miles ride. I will add that I'm a heavy rider, usually weighing in about 100kg, so the lower pressures for me would still seem high for other people. Your Canyon will take 28s - I've run 28mm Pirelli P Zero Race and Continental P4000s on my rim brake Ultimate. Why not fit a set and experiment on 28s for a few weeks?
Fred does not understand that because he just rolled around with his mates and slow down everytime he hits bad pavement. How is that not a slower setup lol.
IMHO, 28 mm is sweet spot, golden mean, i have use 25, 28 and now 30 mm. By narrow tire, like 23/25 mm, you must pump to higher pressure, and then you are slower on rough tarmac, not much, but noticeably.
I agree with you. I don't buy the whole "wider is faster" or "hookless is better". It's just so that the big brands can continue to push hookless wheels. I'm a fan of disc brakes and electric shifting. But basic physics says that a narrow tire will be faster on acceleration, since it's lighter, AND faster at high speeds since it's more aero. That being said, my favorite width has to be 28mm. I find 32mm noticeably slower. 30mm are good as well, I find them fast! I wouldn't go lower than 25mm since it would be too jarring for me. Thanks for this, great video!
Frederico, I love your 'rant'. I still ride 23c tires on both disc and rim brake bikes. Yes they are possibly harder on my butt, but they feel faster to me. And I always ride them pumped to over 100 psi. Fat tires for comfort, speed or fashion? I believe it's just for fashion. And more money. The teams run what they get paid to run.
Track racers use thin tyres today, which is strange if they are faster. Maybe they are faster if there are road surface irregularities but the roads I use are very smooth. Also, the narrower tyres will have less contact area, and less likely to have punctures. The 30mm tires will puncture more, wear out quicker and require more purchases?!
28C is the current preference for speed, you tried 26 and 30, on either end of optimal, and got about the same result. seems about right. If you are going about the same speed, wider gets you better handling, comfort, and puncture protection.
Great discussion. Totally. The move to disc brakes and wider tyres was driven by marketing departments attempting to mitigate the market-limiting concerns of middle-aged customers in the US and northern Europe who came to road bikes from MTB, namely: comfort, puncture resistance, cornering. At the same time, roads in most western countries were getting worse and tyre companies were able to utilise lighter constructions and faster compounds. This 'perfect storm' led to wider tyres that were still quick, but with minimal weight gain and a significant increase in comfort and perceived reliability. But as you say, they are not faster in all conditions, especially w/r to aero and light weight, where they are simply, objectively sower. Also, ride quality was always poorly assessed (quite deliberately, by using inappropriate pressures) by the industry shill channels like GCN. I ride everything from 45mm tubeless gravel, 32mm tubeless all-road, 25/28mm clincher road,, 23mm clincher tt and 25/28mm tubular. The tubulars offer the best ride quality on rough or smooth roads - fact. Unfortunately, the same MTB refugees and newbies could never get their heads round gluing tyres and the available profit margins on 'weird Euro' tubulars were tiny. But what were the Dutch (and most) track teams riding at the Olympics? Tubulars.Teams on road and track have been desperately buying up tubulars from bust manufactures like Dugast for years. Because they're faster. What was Remco riding at the Olympics? Tubulars. Oh, and before the move to adapted 'twin pivot' callipers (when Shimano and Campag though discs might not take off and excellent twin pivot mounts might take over), Campag and Shimano callipers could easily take a 32mm (and more) tyre, so the tyre clearance argument of GCN etc was nonsense too. Even modern callipers easily take a 28mm. As for 'Pogacar is on the fastest bike possible...' haha, what a joke. The Giant-made Colnago is neither light nor aero and the ENVE wheels are dentist-bling specials. The Look/Corima/tubular setup is tried and true, unlimited by US marketing BS and probably the best bike in a peloton who now have to ride bikes that are less aero and slower on the flat then they were 10 years ago and heavier and slower uphill than Pantani was riding! Now gravel bikes have taken over the 'comfortable road bike pretending to be a hardcore race bike' market, road race bikes might return to being actually fast (light, aero, smooth), but as the market for actual race bikes is tiny, we may see them slowly disappear..!
20-23 mm rims and 28 mm tyres seems to be standard on most road bikes today, so might 23 mm tyres be discontinued in a few years? The road surface has worsened the last years where I ride, and I swapped ro 28 mm tyres when the old ones wae worn out this year. I am wery happy with this, and have no issues. Even with a + 20 year old bike and rims. The aerodynamic has of course increased with 28 mm on my old and narrow rims. But it is more comfortable, and my 2002 Colnago is faster than ever. When or if I want 😀
28mm - 32mm is my sweet spot at the moment. More 28mm these days since removing myself from the British cobblestones. I don’t do hookless rims. I’ve got back to tubes.
I think that the state of the road itself plays a huge role. If you have a perfect tarmac, there's no doubt that a narrower tire will be faster. However, if the road has bumps and cracks, and overall, it's not ideally smooth, the wider tire will do the job. I Ride specialized SL8, and recently switched from 26mm to 30mm tires. While they feel slower, numbers show that I'm going with very much the exact same speed, even faster, BUT, I live in the part of the world where roads are total crap, so wider tires eat a lot of cracks and bumps.
Even on top tier tarmac, 25mm and 28mm are the same speed, while 23mm tyres are slightly slower. You have to be riding on a super smooth Olympic velodrome surface for 23mm to make sense, and even then some track riders are using 25mm.
Yes, but I set up my bike to have fun and ride faster on the nice sections. That's where it gets competitive. I don't set myself up to ride fast on the rough patches.
If 5mm narrower tire went 0,5 km faster in real life you wouldn’t be able to measure it. And your partly placebo partly real sense of comfort gives the illusion that you ride faster on wider tire. While in reality narrower tire is always faster. Grip and safety is a different matter though.
@@tongotongo3143 It doesn't give an illusion that I ride faster; it actually feels slower, but the numbers show that it's faster. Again, where I live, roads are crap, and you constantly hit micro bumps/cracks, etc. Narrower tire bounces more out of them, due to hire pressure and smaller point of contact, while wider tire kind of eats them, and doesn't lose so much momentum.
Narrow tire with high pressure bounces over obstacles and still keeps lots of momentum forward while wider tire with lower pressure absorbs the movement stoping the momentum forward. Yes tire with higher pressure is less comfortable on your hands. That’s why even on the nastiest Roubaix cobble road cyclists still ride on narrow tires just very recently as a compromise trying 30 -32 mm tires, still very narrow for the nastiest road in the world. For regular average quality asphalt roads 23 -25 mm are the most optimal if speed is priority.
Personally it dependends on your body weight, I have a Spanish cycling friend that can get away with 25's, but he is only 55kg and 5ft 2, I am 6ft 6 and 85kg, I've tried 25's & 28's but had loads of punctures with them. I'm now on 30 on the front and 32 on the rear with no problems.
I ride 23/25 the main reason I ride 23 at front is I like to look of a thin tyre on the front. I think wide tyres on front dull the responsiveness of the bike.
This is interesting.. a couple years back i thought putting a 28 on the rear might help me get a better ride because I could drop pressure a little without hurting my wheel. It worked.. comfort was better, and my same rides average speeds was same or slight bit better. Still running a GP4000-25 up front, I have bought a couple extras so using them up. The plan is to go 28 out front eventually but the tires dont wear as fast out front so it might be a while, and honestly I kinda like this setup. So it was very cool to see they are spec' ing bikes with the 25 /28 combo... i had NO IDEA ! It's not quite as good a match for the carbon wheelset I am running, but not too bad. Front is perfect so at least I break the wind correctly... now to get myself more aero is the next hurdle.
If you look at the rolling resistance test data, you'll see each individual tire has its own fastest width. For example, the fastest version of the Schwalbe Marathon are the 37mm clinchers. I envy those with the option of running 23mm racing tires--not a viable option where I live.
Hmmm... I find 25-28 mm about perfect in The Bay Area, California where steep hills are the norm. Comfort, for me, can be largely mitigated by frame selection, contact points (saddle, seatpost, handlebars) and a finely honed bike fit.
The argument for them being faster is that even the road you are riding on in this video isn't perfectly smooth. The test that Bicycle Rolling Resistance performs is on a perfectly smooth steel drum. Once you take it out to the road even a smoother roads have microbumps that have some effect and end up benefitting wider tires at lower pressures. How low and how wide seems to depend on how bumpy the surface is though. If I remember correctly it is due to higher psi tires bouncing off those bumps in the road. Small losses in speed occur when that happens. Switching from 23's to 26's and at a lower psi I noticed a difference in speed on my normal roads. Not massive but slightly faster and more comfortable is great.
I can understand the smoothness over the road imperfections, but it seems that aero differences in different volumes are not taken in consideration, while minimal frame alterations are hailed like speed revolutions
@@fede1275that's a false equivalence, they do not contradict each other. An aero frames purpose is to be aero and it will not suffer from being narrower. A tyres sole purpose is to role efficiently, increasing the width improves its rolling resistance far more than it suffers aerodynamicly. Have a read of the white paper published by Parcours on aerodynamics, it's on the Chrono wheels page.
i have several bikes (all with rim brakes, only the MTB with disc brakes) to make my commuting more exciting, and the one with the 28 mm tires (only one has enough clearance) feels more grippy and comfortable
23’s on my crit bike 2014 Cervelo S5, 25’s on my spare bike 2018 Bianchi Oltre XR3 and 28 tubeless on my everyday bike 2022 Ribble Ultra SLR, looks like the newer the bikes get the wider the tires get but they are more comfortable and that helps your performance.
On smooth roads narrow higher pressure is fine. But you'll have less grip when wet. However sprinting and jerking the bike on wide soft tyres is not going to be fast.
The only thing you didn’t mention, is the ability to run slightly lower pressure and a voluminous tyre can conform and roll over slight inconsistencies in the road surface say 2-5 mm instead of you pushing and bumping off these inconsistencies as the tyre rolls over them. This effect is even better with higher tpi tyres. I discovered this as I was commuting back home with my 25mm tyres and I only had about 50psi of pressure. I was gliding across road seams and I was able to just smoothly pedal and focus my effort onto without having to manage bumps. I set my fastest segment record on that day which I still have to beat. I run 80/85psi now because low pressure do increase rolling resistance still. I will try a different approach with higher tpi tyres with slightly lower pressure and 28mm width Bontrager R4 tyre. I will try 80/85 psi too for reference.
Pressure will make a big difference a wide tyre 25 or 28 mm with a high pressure will be faster on most rods than a thin 23 mm because it will have more or less the same amount on road surface but will absorb ruff surface more or flex easier every time a 23 mm hits a bump and jumps your speed is transferred up wards and not forward but the flex of 25 or 28 mm does not do that so much they still move forward.
Jan Heine proofed that wider means faster up to 25 mm. And from there up to 54 mm it's not clear trend on smooth roads. Jan recently rode a FKT on 54 mm - accidentally because his fast bike with narrow 42 mm tyres was in the workshop. Those big wheels didn't hold him back, did they?
Wide tyres were NOT employed primarily for "comfort", they were the engineering solution for the adoption of disk brakes that overpowered the then industry standard 23mm high pressure tyre contact patch. Fortunately for them, wider tyres would also provide increased comfort. This would become a very necessary and welcome side effect soon enough. The introduction of disk brakes set into motion a cascade of changes to bike design that were necessary to compensate for the flow-on effects of disk brakes. First it was tyres, they needed to provide more grip, the solution was a larger contact patch. Rim and tyre widths were increased, pressures dropped to create a larger contact patch capable of contending with disk's greater braking forces. This exposed the limitations of frames and forks. They soon learned that you couldn't just slap disks on a rim brake optimised frame. So then came the redesign of frames. Frames and forks now had to contend with brakes located much closer to the wheel hub than the fork crown. Braking forces were also offset to one side, unlike rim brakes which were symmetrically applied to both sides of the rim. This created far greater stresses on the head tube, fork steerer and wheel axles. Thus frames needed to be reinforced in places they previously did not. Skewers also made way for through axles to increase structural rigidity. As a consequence frames got heavier and stiffer and much more uncomfortable to ride. This is where tyres and comfort become even more important, they get wider (again), pressures drop (again) to compensate for the terrible riding characteristic of disk brake "optimised" frames. As an aside, lower tyre pressures and wider tyres also created a higher propensity for puncture, the solution, sealant. I won't go into the myriad problems with this solution, suffice it say it's less than optimal AND the problems associated with tubeless tyres are pretty obvious to any critical thinker who hasn't drunk the cool aid. To conclude, modern disk brake bikes may be "faster" (depending on the parameters prioritised in the measurement) than the old rim brake bikes BUT they are not better. They don't come close to the level of refinement of rim brake bikes. They are an over engineered solution to a problem that did NOT exist. Imagine if rim brake bike development had continued, if advancements in aero optimisation, CFD, FEA, materials research, electronic integration etc etc had occurred to rim brake platforms in conjunction with disks. I think the argument for a rim brake platform with 23-25mm tyres would be even greater than an already compelling case.
@@space.youtube I agree 100%, very well explained. I didn't want to add these considerations as it would have focused on rim vs discs, but that's the reality.
You lost me on a part a problem that not existed. That's bullshit mate. Rim brake bikes had limitations and had to go. Now we have way better braking and wheels can be way more aero optimized becuse they are not limited by rim brakes.
@@kubackjeee why Canyon is using 25c on the Aeroad? Aero optimised still can't change the law of physics. I agree you can be as fast and comfortable at the same time, but a narrow set up is not slower
@@fede1275 canyon is well known for putting outdated technology on their stock bikes. It's a simple method for them to offer lower prices as they buy them cheaper. There are many examples just to name few - defective rotor Cranks in grizl lineup or narrow outdated dt swiss rims. But you won't see pros running those parts... I wonder why?
For me, in the uk a wide tyre is a must. When going abroad though I think you can get away with narrower. I also believe it’s the same or less rolling resistance for the same skin or radial pressure (I think it’s called) of the tyre. Road surface dependant as well. I do believe from a lot of TT testing that the narrower tyre starts to come back into its own over 45-50kmh again, more aero gain than RR gain. Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this one.
Very dependent on the road surface you ride. Smooth, go 25. Goat track, wider. A less rattly ride shakes the muscles less. Muscle vibration was proven years ago to sap power, increase recovery time and is less efficient. As for wide on a smooth road... I reckon your hookless theory is spot on.
25mm in the front/28mm or 30mm at the back …. (if u can squeeze it in on the old rim brakes calipers) middle diddle with some extra comfort while maintaining speed and acceptable time proven aero effects
I think its good to be sceptical when the premium for a certain product is outsized to the difference in manufacturing inputs. We routinely (in Aus anyhow) fork out +30% for 30/32c tyres. Just because an athlete has an elite FTP does not mean they can design an experiment to optimize a multi variable system! The cumulative measurement errors alone would far exceed the reported margins of benefit.
i find "width as measured" to be the most important metric these days. for example, 23, 25 and 28c GP4000 tires measure completely differently to 23, 25 and 28c GP5000 tires. the GP5000's all measuring much more narrow than the equivalent size GP4000. either way, my preference for balance between speed and comfort is to have a tire that measures between 29-30mm.
The rolling resistance test is not real world. As a system, wider tyres with lower pressure is more efficient unless you are on a very smooth velodrome. Even normal tarmac is very uneven, very stiff wheels and rock hard tyres will make the bike and you vibrate up and down, and that’s lost energy. Soft/wide tyres stop the bike moving up and down, the tyres measure slower in a lab,but the system will be faster. There are downsides. Heavy wheels don’t react as fast, and it just all feels slower. I don’t think they climb as well, but the data doesn’t support me - pros are smashing koms on 28 tyres. For pros, aero trumps all. As far as aero, wider seems to be quicker, counter intuitive, but it’s the overall shape of wheel and tyre that’s the key. Team GB used 25mm on the velodrome just for aero gains this year. We’ve seen the fastest ever roubaix, tour, giro, flanders recently, all on the new tyres. Evidence is, it’s faster. But, I don’t care, I run 23front, 25 rear, cos I like how it feels. Although winter bike is getting 30mm…
Intriguing video; I totally understand why you would be skeptical about the bike industry's push for aero, except when it comes to wheels. (I think aero factors can be safely ignored by almost all of us; unless you're doing a time trial, aero probably doesn't matter very much.) I agree that a lot of the marketing of wider tires has to do with the attempt to get people to accept hookless rims, which I don't think will be successful, because hookless rims on bicycles is an insane idea. And I agree that GCN videos cannot be trusted; the number of times they have arrived at a conclusion they didn't expect or like and then just dismissed the results is almost comical. (e.g., pedals, wheels, aero bikes, Lycra, tire width...) Personally, though, I do like wider tires; they are more comfortable, they are safer on the absolutely appalling paved roads of the United States, they allow me to make detours on unpaved roads once in a while, and, crucially, I believe they are much less prone to getting punctures. There's a lot of research out there at this point that suggests that running lower air pressures is actually faster, because of the effects of road imperfections on tires at higher pressures; and running lower pressures with narrower tires isn't a very good idea because of the low volume. I use clincher 32mm tires at 80-85 psi, with TPU tubes, on my own bike, and this works for me because I care a bit more about endurance than speed, but I think the sweet spot for most road bikes is probably 28mm. 28mm gives you all the benefits of wider tires, but beyond this width they start getting too heavy, without any additional benefit in comfort or rolling resistance.
This is a perfectly understandable analysis and I can only agree with it. My issues are mainly with the current language that it seems to be used in the industry: if wider tyres have some advantages, it does not mean other set up have become instantly slower. If disc brakes are now the preferred choice, it does not mean rim brakes are dangerous. It seems they can't prop up the new tech without discrediting the previous set ups.
What a wonderful discussion my friend! I believe that the fasted tire size depends on your current bicycle and rim and the road surface you intend to ride…. For my gravel bike - riding on loose rock and slippery descents my wheelset has 21mm internal rim diameter and I use 37c tires with lots of puncture protection and knobs - and I can tell you that it is 10,000% faster than my gorgeous and beloved TT bike with 50mm Carbon Rims (17mm internal rim width) and 28c tires (were I to risk my beautiful paint job taking her on those trails)… I am sure my “spoilt princess” would complain with every sharp rock that came near her rims… BUT if I could clone myself and race against myself in a 40km time trial (riding on the asphalt) one of me on the TT bike and the other on my gravel bike there is no competition… “Princess” would already be at the Café enjoying her second cappuccino before the Gravel Bike joined the party!
The last 2 hour records have been set on 25mm tyres that measured 27.5mm, 25,mm tyres were used because they tested to be the fastest. If 25mm tyres are the fastest on a velodrome then they cannot be the fastest on the road.
Disagree. One of the disadvantages of thick tires is less favorable thickness-to-chord ratio. That is less of an issue if rim is very deep or if it is even a disc. On the velodrome thicker tire probably affects the whole system less.
@@jkk916 I'm not sure what or who you're disagreeing with. The team tested different tyres widths to see what was the fastest, 25s on the velodrome were the fastest.
@@jkk916 ok, so you think to go faster on the track you use wider tyres than you do on the road? Interesting. You're disagreeing with every professional cyclist that's existed in the last ~10 years 😅
I don't understand the confusion. Very sticky wider tyres with lower pressures for colder temperatures (sub-zero), grittier tyres for really rough terrain (like gravel/mud), and very thin high pressure tyres for "barber green"/airport smooth tarmac just like in the velodrome. We have already proven these things. Science didn't just start 2019 you know? To convince yourself, ride the different set up in the different conditions and see how it goes.
My point is the bigger the pressure the faster tire would be on the ideal asphalt. 23c just forces you to inflate that immense pressure so it becomes faster on comparison
As always Fred funny as hell 😂🤣😅..,me personally being 218lbs i prefer a slightly wider tire set up but not too wide as 28mm works really good for me. My front tire are set at 80 psi & my rear are set at 95 psi which for me is for now as good as it gets, love ya S-Works helmit but how are you fairing with it 🤔......,👊🏾👍🏾
From about 1988 rode 23mm continental grand prix. Then around 1992 they were discontinued and something called "grand prix 4 season" replaced them. We're not as good but better puncture resistance I would say. Still cotton sidewalls. Roll forward to 2024 "grand prix 4 season " now have solid rubber sidewalls and very uncomfortable. Bring back cotton sidewalls.
I totally agree with Mr Ciampella,I've been riding longer than most of these guys on GCN,and the rest of the choir,I used to ride 25's,now I'm using 28's,and I think it's the Best combination of speed and comfort,and I honestly believe its all selling points .So I say don't believe the Hype.,just ride what you can afford.😎
Love the channel keep up the good work! Wider tyres were introduced to increase the contact patch required for the bite of disc brakes (also far more crashes in pro cycling), manufacturer's increased wheel width also to support the tyre to rim transition (for aerodynamics - see reserve wheels as an example). However, for rim brakes with a 19mm internal wheel (25mm tyres) are perfect! for anything above this, i.e. 21mm > 24mm internal rim width (28mm tyres) are best. If you want the best blend for speed and comfort, the compromise which I have found to be the fastest for rim brake bikes is: 21mm internal rims paired with a 28mm tyre on the rear and a 25mm on the front (lightweight too). My tyre of choice: GP 5000 TT TR - check out rolling resistance, less watts to achieve higher speeds = fast! #rim4roaddisc4dirt
I've got a shed full of tires that are damn near new because I've made the purchases to try for myself which ones perform best. I've got four sets of wheels now two carbon and two aluminum with different inner rim widths and profiles. I agree with you, I am faster and feel faster on 25mm tires. I am currently testing some Challenge 27mm and I feel slower than I do on the Pirelli 26mm tires. So given my opinion I think this all comes down to the industry taking a backstep or slower approach to getting us to convert to tubeless setups. We all know tubeless works with fat tires and lower pressures but is shit with skinny high pressure tires. Think about it. For me I don't care if the 32mm wider coolness becomes the norm, I will never use tubeless sealant again. I've done enough tubeless setups to know it's a headache and a mess I can't be bothered with anymore.
Riding 28c now. Recently started doing much longer rides, so I’ll be going up to 32c. The added tire volume will add some much needed comfort, also even with inner tubes you can run lower pressures. It’s not hype at all.
My BMC Teammachine came with 25mm tyres. It will 'only' accept up to 30mm max. A slightly wider tyre with less pressure will give you better grip in corners because of the larger contact patch, hence crit riders, but the larger contact patch automatically means more rolling resistance for the same given compound. I might go up to 28mm just for comfort, when i finally trash the 25's on it now. But I will get the speed back by using a better tyre than the one it came fitted with (mid level Vittorias)
Thanks for sharing. May I ask which teammachine you owe? I have the 2015 rim brake slr02 and I fit it with 28mm, I want to go wider for some shitty roads in Surrey, but I don't have a 30mm or 32mm to try. I am not sure where is the limit (with clearance) and don't want to spend £120 on gp 5000 32mm without a use for them.
Another reason for the push is because of hydraulic disc brakes. Wider tires help a bit with those panic stops 😂 but not by much. I slid into a deer and hit it side ways with both tires. Fun times 👍
Back then there was no carbon rims. 19-23 wide tires were standard, because there was a very narrow aluminium rim for these - 15 mm internal was perfect. When carbon showed up - if made at that width, no wheel could stand 3 weeks of TdF racing (or others), not to mention races via cobbles. So the rims had to become wider and wider to gain any reasonable strength and safety. pulling the tire business behind, for a perfect rolling resistance. Look ~10 years back, when carbon rims were pretty much an obvious choice for each race, many riders still aluminium wheels for Paris-Roubaix, just not to end up in a terrible crash/injuries somewhere on the way.😆
My personal, recent experience using Conti TT's, the 26mm felt snapier while the 28mm felt smoother once rolling. I don't race so I'm not stressing over marginal gains so like other posters here I agree with them and go with what you like based on your use case. Just go out and ride, don't get too caught up in the science, sometimes the old days were great were you had to work with what you had and know and manage your body and ride senses, not tech or science to ruin the time experience. Riders are faster now maybe because of the tech and science but I believe that it depersonalizes the riding experience.
when it comes to UAE's choice I always have the scene in mind which you show at 11:30, Pogacar clearly crashed there because of the hookless Enve rims - and, as you said, with these rims they could only solve the problem by using wider tires with lower pressure. On top of that, the tarmac in France is extremely rough, so it's the area where narrower tires and higher pressure don't show their qualities anyways. I use 25mm or 25 front and 28 back most of the time and I think that is the maximum making sense where I live. ...btw, for Alpine tours I still like to use my Bora's with tubulars because of the superior safety - though they are slower than modern clinchers with latex tubes (what I believe is the case not because tubulars are always slower but because clinchers and tubeless are developed further and further, while the tubulars, Conti Competition Pro Ltd or Podium TT in my case, are still the same as 20 years ago)
I've noticed a very noticeable difference in top speeds hit on freewheeling descents around me between 40mm and 32mm gravel tires. According to BRR, the 40mm I have should be around 17.4w RR and the 32mm at 20w RR, yet the 32mm are 3-4mph faster at top speed on steep descents IE I'll hit 42mph with the 40mm and 45mph on the 32mm pretty regularly (the 32mm are on LESS aero wheels to boot). That sort of speed difference is REALLY important in a race since you can make up (or lose) so much time on descents without putting in much effort. I think this is the primary reason the peloton is still mostly on 28mm. I think people trust the BRR site too much, and discounting the effect that wide tires have on the cyclists in riding over crappy portions of road. BRR also does not account for the what effect the tread pattern has on the tire with varied road surfaces since it's just a steel drum. It measures the efficiency of the casing and that's pretty much it, it's missing a large component of how the tire performs with the interaction of the face of the tire on different surfaces.
Yes, but I simply believe a 23 or 25c tyre on a 50mm carbon wheels with an external width between 25 and 27mm would penetrate the air faster than a 32c tyre on a 32mm wide rim. Smaller is faster as less aero drag?
I can only go 26mm on my bike but it is all good since my paths are fairly good most of the time in terms of smoothness. And I still like high pressure around 98psi. My other track bike could do 28mm which seems like the ideal size in my type of turf.
its a give and take, for long steady endurance rides wider may be better, more so for comfort, for faster efforts and especially on smoother roads 25 or 28 is perfect.
Wider tyres need wider rims yeah? All that equals extra weight? I'll stick with prime wheels, Vittoria n.ext 26 mil tyres and ridenow TPU tubes. Works for me.
Great video! I can’t say the push for wide tires is necessarily a conspiracy but it might as well be one. The cycling industry from the 1980s on has one goal and one goal only and that is to quickly sell products. Quality bicycles can do their job for many decades with only basic maintenance. That creates a sales problem. Why was Campagnolo regarded the best component manufacturer in the 60s 70s and early 80s? You could count on it like nothing else made in that era. Not the best business model as it turns out. The cycling industry operates on planned obsolescence. Whatever you ride today will be holding you back tomorrow. Time for a new bike. Statistics and tests can be manipulated and tuned to say just about anything you want. I am not saying that some things have not improved but most of this is pure marketing. Carbon rims were once narrow in the same dimensions as the aluminum rims they replaced. That didn’t work so will. Carbon rims need a much beefier cross section to work properly. From there It all starts to get a bit wonky, we go down the slippery slope. Wide tires, disc brakes and aerodynamics to the rescue. An entirely new standard that makes all that once was great obsolete and it can be justified by some decimal point in a statistic. Problem solved! The industry supports its self and my old race bike that I once absolutely loved is garbage. Conspiracies don’t exist.
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy Federico, I’ve got a rim brake frame with 25s and disc with 28s and the 28s are faster everywhere BUT the 25s always feel faster for some reason. I’ve done my own test which was as controlled as I could make it and this again showed a considerable win for the wider tyres. When I started road cycling in 2017 I was on 25s and I think as the industry started to transition towards 28s and tubeless the pros were still using 25mm tubulars, now I would say the situation is the opposite, most cyclists are on 28mm tyres and the pros are moving towards wider for example Tadej Pogacar ran 30mm at the TDF and even 32mm on at least one stage. On a personal level I’ll take the fact that the increased comfort is worth it, the roads around Leicestershire aren’t the worst in the UK but they never get any better, I’m running my 28s at 58/68psi and have a set of 30mm to fit when these wear out.
I read a study sometime in the past that people relate increased vibration and some lost of stability as being 'fast', while smooth is 'slow'. This applies to cars, but the same can be said for bikes. So if you are on narrow tyres at higher pressure, the ride can be more jittery hence feels fast.
@@davidlau2467 however how come in all those years it seems no one found a better solution to narrow tyres and high pressures? And we are talking about racers that did literally everything to win and have an advantage on others
Interestingly..when the Industry pushed disc brakes,suddenly wide tyres are ‘faster’….just by coincidence skinny tyres are simply NOT SAFE with disc brakes.-just saying!
For many reasons I have a preference for skinny rubber. For sure I like the feel of the ride. Embracing those scabby roads. It makes you work, it makes the bike work and when those smooth twisty bits arrive, they will feel so much more electric. Challenge your skills and enlighten yourself, ride dynamic and feel it. When I swing my leg over, I wanna feel pushed and exhilarated and doing something I can remember. In essence, the ride for me should condition the mind, body and sole. Not some monotonous sedentary lazyboy action🚴🚴🚴🤟
You’re going uphill. A good steep climb. You hit a rough patch. What does it do? Makes it harder. The rougher the ride the more energy lost. Which tires will go over that rough patch, narrow and hard or wider and softer? Do I have to answer? So the answer is, it depends. Most of us run on less than perfect roads.
Yes, but as soon as I hit the power and I see a tyre bending soft under me, I don't like it and I believe it does not transmit the power down. The rough patch is only a bump over a much longer ride
My guess is because 0 yaw aero gains are exaggerated while wider tyres and rim combo seems to perform better under real life environment. (More gains in >0 yaw)
@@fede1275 I'm also on the course of understanding this, it's to the point I've purchased some wide LB rim to test in person. Perhaps I'll update you when my wheels come.
@fede1275 Not necessarily, Dylan Johnson wind tunnel tested for Unbound and found that 2.2 inch Conti Race Kings were virtually the same as some narrower gravel tires. As Josh Portner always says about aero guesses, "It depends." In other words, nothing about aero can be "calculated" without wind tunnel testing.
@fede1275 seriously? We're talking about aero drag differences that are truly marginal gains. The real scientists who do wind tunnel testing know that conventional wisdom isn't useful.
What tire pressure can you tolerate? Does it allow you to put down power at all times? Everybody is riding in different conditions and they have different tire pressure tolerance (road buzz). I believe we're making a mistake when we choose our wheelsets first and tires second. Pick the tires first then the wheelset. If you require 60psi then you need wider tires and wider rims. If you can ride at 110psi then those will slow you down. Stay with 23C. Here's the fun part. Some frames have lots of road buzz (often aero frames), requiring wider tires to produce the same comfort as a different frame. Meaning, your favorite aero bike might slow you down. Ideally pick a comfortable aero frame, if there is such a thing + 23C. If you can ride 23C tires for 5h and not stop pedaling over every little bump in the road, then you're already optimal Federico. 😊 Here's a tip for you. The rear wheel has very little impact on aero so you can go one size wider there without a penalty. Keep the front wheel aero optimal though (tire + rim same width). 23C + 25C combo.
Mate.wider tires better traction on downhill.less vibrations.those bilions very little potholes and imperfections in tarmac slov you down.i believe over all the science is right it makes sence.i think in future you will accept this and you will ride 30-32c tires.it is just safer faster more comfortable.aero gain in this case is bit less then decreased vibrations.accept that
What you seem to oversee is...what is the messured width? Numbers on the tyre don´t mean anything, a 28mm can be 28 on one rim, and 31 on a other. My take is, you have to have the right rim/tyre combination. For my Wheels that is a 28mm GP5000, gives my a snug transition from tyre to rim and matches my rim width of 30.5mm perfectly.
Yes, it seems that the 105 ratio is the priority for aero, as the rim slightly larger than the tyre. But then between 2 set ups both at 105 ratio, which one is faster? The fatter or the slimmer?
@@fede1275 I would assume, if you take the rider out of the equation, the thinner. But that is only in the lab. In the real world, where the Wind is always changing, that would be very minimal.
28 to 32 mm means you can run lower pressure and it’s definitely more comfortable. Unless you’re a pro the difference in speed is negligible. Ten seconds over 150 km matters for a pro, but not if you’re doing grand fondos. You probably would increase your aero efficiency a lot more if you do some yoga 🧘 and can sit comfortably a bit lower on the bike. Your body is the biggest obstacle for speed. Personally I run 28mm because Pirelli Zero 28mm with tan wall was on sale. I had a very comfortable Challenge 30 mm tires before that, but they wore out quite fast.
25mm tyres on both my Canyon ultimate cf slx rim & Specialized sl5 s-w rim. 7 bar front , 7.8 bar rear. Works perfect (for me 80kg) . 32mm only on my Canyon commuter bike :).
For what it's worth, I have found a wider rim, 25mm internal with 28mm tyres seems to be the fastest setup over 100k on road but I use 32mm tyres because the speed difference is minimal and gives increased comfort. Could just be a placebo effect? Are the 28s more aero over a longer distance? Consistency of the data? The ride environment permutations are endless, probably? What it means in the real world, who knows as my weight and fitness fluctuate wildly? *Statistics 101* the same data can tell a different story depending on how it's presented. What about the difference in weight between older (right back when thinner tyres became the norm) tyre sizes compared to the difference in weight between the sizes now?
Yes, interesting. For now I do prefer a lighter setup with 25c on the Canyon and 21mm internal rim width. Funny 25c was considered a wider option not that long ago
it seems to be correct. I always had 700c wheels with narrow tyres - 23 or 25mm - but recently got a new bike with wider tyres (28mm) and suddenly I was setting PRs on my usual routes without trying (new bike is all road, old one is race, so new bike should be "slower"!)! Road surfaces are rough, which seems to be the deciding factor: narrower tyres on Spanish-perfect roads e.g. beats wider tyres.
I agree that it all depends on the condition of the roads where you ride.
For me I value speed and lightness on the smooth, I don't want to get the drawbacks of a set up for the rough roads
Spanish roads Spanish weather ❤☀️☀️☀️🙏
Intelligent comments not seen on some channels.
can't compare an old bike with a brand new one, literally invalid if it's not the same bike/model of the same year etc
For me, comfort means less fatigue, which is nicer. Faster? Slower? Couldn't care less😊
Nothing wrong with that. I just don't understand how my setup is now considered slower
More comfort = faster
@@kubackjeee I'm 51 and I don't mind 150Km on 23c, I'll go wider when I will feel discomfort
@@fede1275 just the fact that you got used to something does not make it faster. It's just the only thing you know and are afraid of trying something new. Don't get me wrong I am also against marketing bullshit, hookles, road tubeless and all that shit. But wider tire does not cost more then narrow tire so not a big deal for companies here. But it is faster on longer rides, wears your body less - which in a result can help you recover faster, therefore train harder and more often. It's not just rolling resistance numbers bro, you have to look at the whole package and connect the dots.
I'm not arguing with these considerations at all. If these are your priorities, then wider tyres are perfect. I'm just prioritising performance over comfort in the sections I like to push hard with my friends. And in isolation I believe I'm faster with my lighter and more aero (same shape and less volume) wheels. I can accept to be slower on the rough patches, it's not my priority and I don't race so the overall time it's irrelevant
Ive recently returned to cycling after about 15 years and my head is bamboozled with all that has apparently changed. My 20 year old bike has 23s. Suprised im able to move at all 😅
As it goes for me. I have wide tires on my mountain bike and I own a really nice Panasonic from the 70s with narrow tires. I just couldn't pass it by. One owner, not a single scratch on it, brakes in perfect condition, no rust whatsoever, and I paid only $75.00. How can you go wrong? And to add, the chain when I bought it looked brand new.
Just ride the tyres you're confident and comfortable with I'd say. Unless you are racing the gains or losses are too marginal
One of the engineers of Newmen (Intermarche Wanty) shared the results of their experiments regarding this topic on a German forum.
Here are the key takeaways:
All different tire and rim width combinations are equally fast at the same comfort level (11w +/- 0.5). This means that compromises are made by considering the following points:
- A 2mm increase in tire size adds about 20g per tire.
- A 2mm increase in internal rim width results in approximately a 1mm increase in effective tire width.
- The wider the tire/rim, the more comfort margin is available by reducing air pressure.
- The wider the tire/rim, the lower the rolling resistance at the same air pressure.
- Improved cornering and braking grip due to the changed tire contact area.
- Better ride characteristics in the event of a puncture with low remaining pressure.
- The wider the tire or rim, the lower the operating pressure, leading to the following advantages:
- Less frequent inflation due to lower operating pressure.
- Sealant can better close holes due to lower operating pressure.
- Reduced risk of tires coming off the rim.
It is important to note that a 2mm change in internal rim width corresponds to about a 1mm change in tire width.
--> Almost all of these advantages can be achieved by increasing either the internal rim width or the tire width.
+2mm tire width --> +1.6w
+15mm rim height --> -1.5w
Where would you include aero resistance? Why is so important for the frame and seems to be excluded from the tyres?
You pretty much made the case for wider tires. Depending on terrain and load, tire sizes and pressures could vary widely. 25C at 90PSi, for my weight, are ideal for riding on smooth tarmac. They're fast, nimble, and relatively flat resistant, but on dirt or gravel, their contact patch just isn't wide enough. I agree with Federico. Added weight is the caveat overlooked in bigger tires.
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@@paulmcknight4137then buy a light tire. I roll on 28cm (31 wam) Michelin power cup clincher and they weight just 230g. That's as light as most 25c tires, many are even heavier. Never felt faster and more connected to the road. It gives more confidence and less body wear which makes me even faster the longer the ride.
@@fede1275 Aero resistance is the only drawback of wider tyres besides weight. For every 2mm increase in width, you have to add 15mm of rim height to compensate for aero drag. Picking the right tyre size and pressure has always been a compromise.
Do the benefits of wider tyres (grip, cornering, braking, comfort margins, sealant working better, less blowouts) outweigh aero drag and weight penalty?
Personally I would say that if performance (speed) is not your primary concern then it's very hard (or impossible) to argue against wider tyres.
And with frames and rims getting optimized for wider tyres (pushed by the industry) they certainly won't get slower in the future ;)
@@leg_snapper no issues with that. I am just as fast with my old set up though, not slower 😀
I ride in Japan where roads are 95% perfect smooth tarmac. I have ridden 25c, 28c, 30c tires, both tubeless and clincher setup. Wider tires are pushed because of disc brakes. Tubeless and wider tires feels nice because of lower pressure, BUT, low pressure tires wear out so fast. Already flattening and visible wear after 300km or so. Grip etc? I aint feeling the difference. I only feel difference with regular side wall tires are the cotton walls (corsa g2, veloflex). 25c is the fastest for me where I set all my PRs on flats and climbs without proper training.
Don't ride Vitoria tyres, they don't last long independently of the width.
But they are very grippy and fast.
@@tongotongo3143 true.
@@laurenceraygatchalian6108 You got the point!
They need wider tyres because of disc brakes.For me 25 C tyres are the fastest
aren't the wider tubeless tires also easier to install. i imagine you still need to use steel levers.
I don't think UAE are deliberately slowing themselves down because of sponsorship. They have a huge budget and can afford to choose. Tadej is as enthusiastic about his bike and components as anyone else, and it shows with the 'marginal gain' equipment he has on his bike. The tyres and wheels has the largest effect on the whole bike, so I very much doubt that he is going with 30mm to deliberately slow himself down.
Yeah the only teams that are limiting their performance due to sponsors are the poor one like the one mentioned here - cofidis. To think that Tadej would roll a slower setup due to sponsors is just pure craziness. This dude is all about marginal gains and UAE can buy whole enve company with their spare cash if they want.
@@davidlau2467 so Ineos were limiting themselves when they still used rim brakes?
@@fede1275 I didn't say rim brakes were slow. That's an entirely beast of a topic itself. I was referring specifically to Tadej's choice to use 30mm.
@@davidlau2467 I suspect hookless and tubeless have more to do with the 30mm choice. Are other pro team ridind 26mm or so doing it to deliberately go slow?
he doesnt need wheels and tires to slow himself down, his riding style arguably lost him 2 tdf's. he raced much better this past year. the difference with his set up vs, the top tens is marginal and he still wins no matter what. why should he or the team care what they ride as long as theyre winning. this is why his strategy was so heavily criticized when it cost him big race wins, and so it was addressed. if a set up change meant winning or losing it would be addressed. also staying up right and not flatting is faster which is a huge advantage to bigger tires especially coming from the tt tires he had. on cobbles they all need to go wider for speed, so intention, knowing, and reality arent always harmonious.
Ahhhhhh, another rant based in feelings, Federico is a class act and deserves respect for how he brings attention to the issues he cares about, Rim vs Disc, narrow vs Wider, Steel vs Carbon, ETC, these controversies are omnipresent in the bike communities around the world but believe me when i tell you , HE who can take all prejudice and bias out of the evaluation will be rewarded with the best performance,
Conspiracy it may be, but a tiny bit different one I think. Changing entire ecosystem of frame clearance/rim/tyre is a good thing for a manufacturer because they don't really spend more to make it, but they can bump the prices up for "the latest and greatest" on all of those components. It doesn't mean it is eaither faster or slower though on an individual component level despite what marketologist say.
Tyre size alone is all to easy to test. You may not even need to buy a second set if one of your mates has the same tyre in a different width.
From my experience, I changed 25 grand sport to 28 gp5000 and got a bit faster. Is it because of width increase? I don't think so, probably just a better tyre. Half a year later my brother bought himself really cheap set of 32 gp5000 on sale for his rim brake bike and they didn't fit there but fit okay in my disc frame so we swapped the tyres. I didn't feel any difference in speed compared to 28 but the comfort level got to a different level. So my conclusion to this is if it doesn't slow me down I'd rather ride with more comfort albeit on a 50g heavier setup.
Still ride my 25mm or 23mm tyres at 110psi I'm happy sod what the market thinks great content as usual Fredrico.
👍👍
YEP! especially on a smooth tarmac, they are very snippy. 28mm are very slow in aceleration but slaggy on maniobrality.
As has been said many times, biggest drag comes from the rider. As for tyre width: wider means more comfort for amateurs, and confidence for the pros during descending (as those pros reached out to 100kph) → remember Gino Mader & Remco’s early days → descending on S-bend at such speed.
Btw, Remco is still using 26 cmiiw (?)
I ran 28s on my Ultimate rim brake and preferred the feel over 25s, couldn’t detect a change in speed but noticeably better comfort and grip in corners. Maybe just put some 28s on and see how the feel of the bike changes?
@@randomname8442 maybe it's true I'm a Luddite 😂
He is to fixed in his thinking to do that
Just buy a single 28 for the rear and play around. Ignore the speed, but the comfort and grip should be noticeable
On my first road bike I used 25 mm tires. Then I switched to a new bike with 50 mm deep CF rims which were perfect for 23 mm tires width wise. So I began to use 23 mm tires and I use them ever since. I notice zero difference in comfort. They might be slightly less safe because pinch flats are more likely if I hit a rock on the road or something like that. Also, I feel huge difference on gravel. With 25 mm I can ride some for fun, on 23 mm it is best to avoid.
I think that if you can ride on desired tire pressure without being afraid of pinch flats you don't need a bigger tire. On reasonably good paved roads the only difference in comfort is caused by placebo effect.
It’s really not that complicated. You’re bouncing over your terrain rather than your tyre conforming to it. Vibration losses alone that’s a huge factor to consider.
Forget the comfort factor because everyone I’ve found still runs their pressure too high regardless of going to wider tyres.
You’ve used Bullets as a comparison but not a single tube or profile on your bike follows such an aerodynamic profile. The only difference in aerodynamics would come from the tyre/rim transition and the difference in bulge between different sizes. This is negligible compared to the gain from a wider tyre in fatigue, cornering, rolling resistance, comfort, durability, ability to seal when running tubeless and so much more.
Wide tyres perform the same on smooth terrain. Better on rough roads. Therefore better overall.
I appreciate the open discussion and your opinions towards it. But data is data. You’re more than able to run these tests yourself.
Perhaps try what you’re trying to argue against before giving your opinion. It’s just hearsay otherwise.
The bullet reference is to clarify the difference in overall volume between a 23 or 25mm set up vs 32 or 35mm. Even if you have the same good tyre/rim transition, you can't deny that the more volume would inherently have more aero drag. Also to mimic the same shape on a wider tyre and rim, you would have to increase the rim size and be more susceptible to sidewinds. All to say that yes, you can have more comfort and maybe similar speed. But not that wide are faster as a blank statement
@@fede1275 you are correct but the aero benefits don't come from the tip of the tire alone, you have to look at the whole package as it was and airplane nose, have you seen pointy , sharp airplane noses? because regardless how small the frontal area is and how it breaks the air, how it stays attached to the moving object( bike and rider) matters most , wider tires paired with wider rims do have few mm larger front impact but do a better job dealing with vibrations and integration with the rest of the modern frame. There is ZERO chance an old bike, round tubes, 25mm tires on Mavic alloy wheels is as fast as as a modern frame with wider tires on deep carbon wheels. Don't just take my word for it,data supports my claim
Just like you i have 25 years of experience and own several bikes, most of them are rim brake, i don't really care how fast they are vs modern , i have them all set up with the best that era had to offer and all ride beautifully but when i want performance my go to bike is Ritte Esprit , not even close. Fast, comfortable, versatile , i go mountain climbing, fast road, gravel or TT with the bike, have the Sram AXS groupset and can adjust the shifting and the gearing specifically to the ride i am about to do With 30mm deep wheels bike weight 6.8kg, with deep aero wheels about 7.1kg i can hand with anybody , i can install TT extensions with blips and do tt all day or squeeze 34mm gravel tire and gravel anywhere as long as is not too rough I adore bikes and appreciate the classics but i'm not naive or indoctrinated by no one , nothing can touch the Ritte Esprit for what it offers
@@ciprian7yes, I can get the airplane analogy. I just believe at the same modern aero shape and transition, a 25c tyre setup should be easier to cut the air than a 32c set up, only because of the volume
@@fede1275 How the air stays attached to the moving object is more important that where the air breaks, i am not trying to convince you of anything, there is plenty data and research out there . The only place where narrow, harder tires make sense is on the track where the rolling surface and variables are perfect and controlled . You ride what gives you joy but modern aero frame, wheels, tires make for superior performance when analyzed as a whole package
Federico, I still use 19mm tubulars!
I have done my own testing. The 25c on front wheel and 28c on rear wheel is best solution for me on DT Swiss ARC 50 wheels. 28c on front wheel is slower and also gives me a dull riding feeling. I run Conti 5000 with plastic tubes 36 gram. I have no interest in hookless/tubelees/wide tires on my aero bike. Moving from 23c I have reduced tire pressure from 110 psi to 78 psi for most rides. It is working fine performance / comfort wise.
@@jrnlundsgaard5896 seems a great set up
Most pro teams are using 28mm tyres at a minimum. UAE (team of Tadej Pogacar) have been running a minimum of 30mm tyres for the past two years, even on fast stages with smooth roads and lots of climbing. On stages with even a little bit of cobble or gravel, they run even wider tyres. You don't have to immediately throw away your
@@ironchin17 less comfortable maybe, slower I'm not sure
You'd slow yourself down more by filling your bottle up by another centermeter
@@fede1275 .. if the wide tyres are slower explain how the pros are setting new records on tour climbs
@@cannon1156 I am just arguing against the modern agenda. If they introduce new tech everything else needs to become obsolete. 23c and 25c tyres? Slower. Rim brake? Dangerous. It does not work like that.
I have been using 28c tires and sometimes wider, on my road bikes, for 40 years or more.
I had to put up with less than educated comments about my choices.
Now the dogma is all about wider tires.
A faster tire has never been my objective when buying non competition
Oriented rubber.
This is what I want from the tires I chose for the road.
Sufficient air volume.
Lower air pressure will always be part of higher volume.
Flexible casing that will deform to the road surface for less heat and lower rolling resistance.
Along with maximizing grip and service life.
The last thing on the list is
Tan sidewalls!
All black tires remind me of the garbage bikes that people brought into the shop.
Huffy, Murry, free spirit.
Resulting in me refusing mechanical service.
Black sidewalls remind me of thin stamped sheet metal dropouts installed by smashing and
spot welding.
But on my track bike?
About 23c pista tires with anywhere around 160 psi to over 220 psi depending on the event.
If you want to test tires for rolling resistance?
Go to your local velodrome with a power meter and try different tires at several inflation pressures.
Rid at the same output and see how fast you are going.
In my experience.
Some tires are more than a mile per hour slower or faster than the mid range of efficiency.
As a bicycle mechanic and racer.
I was regularly disappointed about how much mythology, lack of common sense and factual knowledge reside in the bicycle pop culture sphere.
But l must admit, it did make winning bicycle races easier.
Heavy rider at 100kg riding 28mm tyres 77 psi front 81 psi rear
Most importantly 22.5mm internal width rims I used to ignore the type pressure calculators like sram and overinflate the tyres due to my weight
But with a wider internal rim I have found 28mm or 30mm tyres are definitely faster and more comfortable due to the fact they expand to a size bigger and allow much lower pressures on rough uk roads
Which makes the ride much more comfortable and gives more confidence in cornering etc
maybe I can explain why comfort = speed in this case. The discomfort of smaller tires comes from the little bumbs in the ground, if the tire is small and the pressure high this will cause the bike to move upwards instead of moving forward. On a narrower tire the bike therefore has less of its momentum move in the desired direction. And that explains the higher loss in rolling resistance. With a wider tire you stay planted on the streets and more of your energy is put into moving forward. However less vibration gives you less of a feedback for the speed that you are riding. I always feel slower on wider tires because of that, but when I look at my power and speed I see that I'm faster. I just got 32mm wide rims for my road bike, same hubs and same tires. This change alone made me 0.5 km/h faster compared to the 28mm at a power of 200W on normal road surfaces. Yet they didn't feel as fast, but I break my PRs all the times since I have them.
I am not arguing with this theory, however is strange that it took almost 100 years of cycling to discover this? Has anyone ever tried in the previous years to see if actually wider tyres were faster? Or lower pressure in case? In cycling it seems that the law of physics suddenly change whenever it suits? Same for the argument of weight vs aero, when it is now seems to go back to weight?
Apart from aero, some of the claims are that the lower pressures on wider tyres cause less fatigue and keep the rider a little bit fresher and stronger as the ride goes on.
When I switched from 25s to 28s on my Canyon Ultimate, I didn't feel quite as beaten up after a 50+ miles ride.
I will add that I'm a heavy rider, usually weighing in about 100kg, so the lower pressures for me would still seem high for other people.
Your Canyon will take 28s - I've run 28mm Pirelli P Zero Race and Continental P4000s on my rim brake Ultimate. Why not fit a set and experiment on 28s for a few weeks?
Fred does not understand that because he just rolled around with his mates and slow down everytime he hits bad pavement. How is that not a slower setup lol.
There has to be an optimum width for tyres based on certain conditions and setups-your video exemplifies this . . .
IMHO, 28 mm is sweet spot, golden mean, i have use 25, 28 and now 30 mm. By narrow tire, like 23/25 mm, you must pump to higher pressure, and then you are slower on rough tarmac, not much, but noticeably.
Yes, a lighter tire, with less rolling resistance, and less aerodynamic drag, and a smaller contact patch is slower.
Makes total sense. Lol
@@Hoops176 .. testing has shown that the narrower tyres have a higher rolling resistance
i went from 28 to 30 this season and its faster in every way according to my strava. everything else equal.
Must be giving you more confidence to push harder, can it be the rr alone?
I agree with you. I don't buy the whole "wider is faster" or "hookless is better". It's just so that the big brands can continue to push hookless wheels. I'm a fan of disc brakes and electric shifting.
But basic physics says that a narrow tire will be faster on acceleration, since it's lighter, AND faster at high speeds since it's more aero.
That being said, my favorite width has to be 28mm. I find 32mm noticeably slower. 30mm are good as well, I find them fast! I wouldn't go lower than 25mm since it would be too jarring for me.
Thanks for this, great video!
Make perfect sense!
Frederico, I love your 'rant'. I still ride 23c tires on both disc and rim brake bikes. Yes they are possibly harder on my butt, but they feel faster to me. And I always ride them pumped to over 100 psi. Fat tires for comfort, speed or fashion? I believe it's just for fashion. And more money. The teams run what they get paid to run.
Solid video! 25C - rim brakes road bikes rule! 200lbs, F 91lbs - R 95lbs. Perfecto.
Track racers use thin tyres today, which is strange if they are faster.
Maybe they are faster if there are road surface irregularities but the roads I use are very smooth.
Also, the narrower tyres will have less contact area, and less likely to have punctures.
The 30mm tires will puncture more, wear out quicker and require more purchases?!
28C is the current preference for speed, you tried 26 and 30, on either end of optimal, and got about the same result. seems about right. If you are going about the same speed, wider gets you better handling, comfort, and puncture protection.
Great discussion. Totally. The move to disc brakes and wider tyres was driven by marketing departments attempting to mitigate the market-limiting concerns of middle-aged customers in the US and northern Europe who came to road bikes from MTB, namely: comfort, puncture resistance, cornering. At the same time, roads in most western countries were getting worse and tyre companies were able to utilise lighter constructions and faster compounds. This 'perfect storm' led to wider tyres that were still quick, but with minimal weight gain and a significant increase in comfort and perceived reliability.
But as you say, they are not faster in all conditions, especially w/r to aero and light weight, where they are simply, objectively sower. Also, ride quality was always poorly assessed (quite deliberately, by using inappropriate pressures) by the industry shill channels like GCN. I ride everything from 45mm tubeless gravel, 32mm tubeless all-road, 25/28mm clincher road,, 23mm clincher tt and 25/28mm tubular. The tubulars offer the best ride quality on rough or smooth roads - fact. Unfortunately, the same MTB refugees and newbies could never get their heads round gluing tyres and the available profit margins on 'weird Euro' tubulars were tiny.
But what were the Dutch (and most) track teams riding at the Olympics? Tubulars.Teams on road and track have been desperately buying up tubulars from bust manufactures like Dugast for years. Because they're faster. What was Remco riding at the Olympics? Tubulars. Oh, and before the move to adapted 'twin pivot' callipers (when Shimano and Campag though discs might not take off and excellent twin pivot mounts might take over), Campag and Shimano callipers could easily take a 32mm (and more) tyre, so the tyre clearance argument of GCN etc was nonsense too. Even modern callipers easily take a 28mm.
As for 'Pogacar is on the fastest bike possible...' haha, what a joke. The Giant-made Colnago is neither light nor aero and the ENVE wheels are dentist-bling specials. The Look/Corima/tubular setup is tried and true, unlimited by US marketing BS and probably the best bike in a peloton who now have to ride bikes that are less aero and slower on the flat then they were 10 years ago and heavier and slower uphill than Pantani was riding!
Now gravel bikes have taken over the 'comfortable road bike pretending to be a hardcore race bike' market, road race bikes might return to being actually fast (light, aero, smooth), but as the market for actual race bikes is tiny, we may see them slowly disappear..!
@@jameshoward9700 excellent summary!! Agree of course 😄
20-23 mm rims and 28 mm tyres seems to be standard on most road bikes today, so might 23 mm tyres be discontinued in a few years? The road surface has worsened the last years where I ride, and I swapped ro 28 mm tyres when the old ones wae worn out this year. I am wery happy with this, and have no issues. Even with a + 20 year old bike and rims. The aerodynamic has of course increased with 28 mm on my old and narrow rims. But it is more comfortable, and my 2002 Colnago is faster than ever. When or if I want 😀
28mm - 32mm is my sweet spot at the moment. More 28mm these days since removing myself from the British cobblestones.
I don’t do hookless rims. I’ve got back to tubes.
I've gone back to tubes too. If I someday can't get a tube I will quit riding bikes.
Thanks for this video. I am also not sold yet on wider tyres for speed for road nikes🤔
I think that the state of the road itself plays a huge role. If you have a perfect tarmac, there's no doubt that a narrower tire will be faster. However, if the road has bumps and cracks, and overall, it's not ideally smooth, the wider tire will do the job. I Ride specialized SL8, and recently switched from 26mm to 30mm tires. While they feel slower, numbers show that I'm going with very much the exact same speed, even faster, BUT, I live in the part of the world where roads are total crap, so wider tires eat a lot of cracks and bumps.
Even on top tier tarmac, 25mm and 28mm are the same speed, while 23mm tyres are slightly slower. You have to be riding on a super smooth Olympic velodrome surface for 23mm to make sense, and even then some track riders are using 25mm.
Yes, but I set up my bike to have fun and ride faster on the nice sections. That's where it gets competitive. I don't set myself up to ride fast on the rough patches.
If 5mm narrower tire went 0,5 km faster in real life you wouldn’t be able to measure it. And your partly placebo partly real sense of comfort gives the illusion that you ride faster on wider tire. While in reality narrower tire is always faster. Grip and safety is a different matter though.
@@tongotongo3143 It doesn't give an illusion that I ride faster; it actually feels slower, but the numbers show that it's faster. Again, where I live, roads are crap, and you constantly hit micro bumps/cracks, etc. Narrower tire bounces more out of them, due to hire pressure and smaller point of contact, while wider tire kind of eats them, and doesn't lose so much momentum.
Narrow tire with high pressure bounces over obstacles and still keeps lots of momentum forward while wider tire with lower pressure absorbs the movement stoping the momentum forward. Yes tire with higher pressure is less comfortable on your hands. That’s why even on the nastiest Roubaix cobble road cyclists still ride on narrow tires just very recently as a compromise trying 30 -32 mm tires, still very narrow for the nastiest road in the world. For regular average quality asphalt roads 23 -25 mm are the most optimal if speed is priority.
Personally it dependends on your body weight, I have a Spanish cycling friend that can get away with 25's, but he is only 55kg and 5ft 2, I am 6ft 6 and 85kg, I've tried 25's & 28's but had loads of punctures with them. I'm now on 30 on the front and 32 on the rear with no problems.
I am around 87Kg...
Very strange experience. My experience is different.
I ride 23/25 the main reason I ride 23 at front is I like to look of a thin tyre on the front. I think wide tyres on front dull the responsiveness of the bike.
25 at front and 28 at rear is perfect for me👌
This is interesting.. a couple years back i thought putting a 28 on the rear might help me get a better ride because I could drop pressure a little without hurting my wheel. It worked.. comfort was better, and my same rides average speeds was same or slight bit better. Still running a GP4000-25 up front, I have bought a couple extras so using them up. The plan is to go 28 out front eventually but the tires dont wear as fast out front so it might be a while, and honestly I kinda like this setup. So it was very cool to see they are spec' ing bikes with the 25 /28 combo... i had NO IDEA ! It's not quite as good a match for the carbon wheelset I am running, but not too bad. Front is perfect so at least I break the wind correctly... now to get myself more aero is the next hurdle.
If you look at the rolling resistance test data, you'll see each individual tire has its own fastest width. For example, the fastest version of the Schwalbe Marathon are the 37mm clinchers. I envy those with the option of running 23mm racing tires--not a viable option where I live.
Hmmm... I find 25-28 mm about perfect in The Bay Area, California where steep hills are the norm. Comfort, for me, can be largely mitigated by frame selection, contact points (saddle, seatpost, handlebars) and a finely honed bike fit.
Good point
The argument for them being faster is that even the road you are riding on in this video isn't perfectly smooth. The test that Bicycle Rolling Resistance performs is on a perfectly smooth steel drum. Once you take it out to the road even a smoother roads have microbumps that have some effect and end up benefitting wider tires at lower pressures. How low and how wide seems to depend on how bumpy the surface is though. If I remember correctly it is due to higher psi tires bouncing off those bumps in the road. Small losses in speed occur when that happens. Switching from 23's to 26's and at a lower psi I noticed a difference in speed on my normal roads. Not massive but slightly faster and more comfortable is great.
I can understand the smoothness over the road imperfections, but it seems that aero differences in different volumes are not taken in consideration, while minimal frame alterations are hailed like speed revolutions
@@fede1275that's a false equivalence, they do not contradict each other. An aero frames purpose is to be aero and it will not suffer from being narrower. A tyres sole purpose is to role efficiently, increasing the width improves its rolling resistance far more than it suffers aerodynamicly.
Have a read of the white paper published by Parcours on aerodynamics, it's on the Chrono wheels page.
Micro bumps 😂😂😂😂😂😂
i have several bikes (all with rim brakes, only the MTB with disc brakes) to make my commuting more exciting, and the one with the 28 mm tires (only one has enough clearance) feels more grippy and comfortable
23’s on my crit bike 2014 Cervelo S5, 25’s on my spare bike 2018 Bianchi Oltre XR3 and 28 tubeless on my everyday bike 2022 Ribble Ultra SLR, looks like the newer the bikes get the wider the tires get but they are more comfortable and that helps your performance.
On smooth roads narrow higher pressure is fine. But you'll have less grip when wet. However sprinting and jerking the bike on wide soft tyres is not going to be fast.
The only thing you didn’t mention, is the ability to run slightly lower pressure and a voluminous tyre can conform and roll over slight inconsistencies in the road surface say 2-5 mm instead of you pushing and bumping off these inconsistencies as the tyre rolls over them.
This effect is even better with higher tpi tyres.
I discovered this as I was commuting back home with my 25mm tyres and I only had about 50psi of pressure. I was gliding across road seams and I was able to just smoothly pedal and focus my effort onto without having to manage bumps. I set my fastest segment record on that day which I still have to beat.
I run 80/85psi now because low pressure do increase rolling resistance still.
I will try a different approach with higher tpi tyres with slightly lower pressure and 28mm width Bontrager R4 tyre. I will try 80/85 psi too for reference.
@@Dmxravin now you need to keep riding low pressure to see if the faster times are consistent 😀
Pressure will make a big difference a wide tyre 25 or 28 mm with a high pressure will be faster on most rods than a thin 23 mm because it will have more or less the same amount on road surface but will absorb ruff surface more or flex easier every time a 23 mm hits a bump and jumps your speed is transferred up wards and not forward but the flex of 25 or 28 mm does not do that so much they still move forward.
Jan Heine proofed that wider means faster up to 25 mm. And from there up to 54 mm it's not clear trend on smooth roads. Jan recently rode a FKT on 54 mm - accidentally because his fast bike with narrow 42 mm tyres was in the workshop. Those big wheels didn't hold him back, did they?
My 23c on the Vision wheels actually is closer to 25mm, so we are both right 😀
Wide tyres were NOT employed primarily for "comfort", they were the engineering solution for the adoption of disk brakes that overpowered the then industry standard 23mm high pressure tyre contact patch. Fortunately for them, wider tyres would also provide increased comfort. This would become a very necessary and welcome side effect soon enough.
The introduction of disk brakes set into motion a cascade of changes to bike design that were necessary to compensate for the flow-on effects of disk brakes. First it was tyres, they needed to provide more grip, the solution was a larger contact patch. Rim and tyre widths were increased, pressures dropped to create a larger contact patch capable of contending with disk's greater braking forces. This exposed the limitations of frames and forks. They soon learned that you couldn't just slap disks on a rim brake optimised frame. So then came the redesign of frames.
Frames and forks now had to contend with brakes located much closer to the wheel hub than the fork crown. Braking forces were also offset to one side, unlike rim brakes which were symmetrically applied to both sides of the rim. This created far greater stresses on the head tube, fork steerer and wheel axles. Thus frames needed to be reinforced in places they previously did not. Skewers also made way for through axles to increase structural rigidity.
As a consequence frames got heavier and stiffer and much more uncomfortable to ride. This is where tyres and comfort become even more important, they get wider (again), pressures drop (again) to compensate for the terrible riding characteristic of disk brake "optimised" frames. As an aside, lower tyre pressures and wider tyres also created a higher propensity for puncture, the solution, sealant. I won't go into the myriad problems with this solution, suffice it say it's less than optimal AND the problems associated with tubeless tyres are pretty obvious to any critical thinker who hasn't drunk the cool aid.
To conclude, modern disk brake bikes may be "faster" (depending on the parameters prioritised in the measurement) than the old rim brake bikes BUT they are not better. They don't come close to the level of refinement of rim brake bikes. They are an over engineered solution to a problem that did NOT exist.
Imagine if rim brake bike development had continued, if advancements in aero optimisation, CFD, FEA, materials research, electronic integration etc etc had occurred to rim brake platforms in conjunction with disks. I think the argument for a rim brake platform with 23-25mm tyres would be even greater than an already compelling case.
@@space.youtube I agree 100%, very well explained. I didn't want to add these considerations as it would have focused on rim vs discs, but that's the reality.
You lost me on a part a problem that not existed. That's bullshit mate. Rim brake bikes had limitations and had to go. Now we have way better braking and wheels can be way more aero optimized becuse they are not limited by rim brakes.
@@kubackjeee why Canyon is using 25c on the Aeroad? Aero optimised still can't change the law of physics. I agree you can be as fast and comfortable at the same time, but a narrow set up is not slower
@@fede1275 canyon is well known for putting outdated technology on their stock bikes. It's a simple method for them to offer lower prices as they buy them cheaper. There are many examples just to name few - defective rotor Cranks in grizl lineup or narrow outdated dt swiss rims. But you won't see pros running those parts... I wonder why?
Exactly, problem is the vast majority of people can't separate marketing from science
For me, in the uk a wide tyre is a must. When going abroad though I think you can get away with narrower.
I also believe it’s the same or less rolling resistance for the same skin or radial pressure (I think it’s called) of the tyre.
Road surface dependant as well.
I do believe from a lot of TT testing that the narrower tyre starts to come back into its own over 45-50kmh again, more aero gain than RR gain.
Someone can correct me if I am wrong on this one.
I see, makes sense
Very dependent on the road surface you ride. Smooth, go 25. Goat track, wider. A less rattly ride shakes the muscles less. Muscle vibration was proven years ago to sap power, increase recovery time and is less efficient. As for wide on a smooth road... I reckon your hookless theory is spot on.
👍👍
25mm in the front/28mm or 30mm at the back …. (if u can squeeze it in on the old rim brakes calipers) middle diddle with some extra comfort while maintaining speed and acceptable time proven aero effects
I think its good to be sceptical when the premium for a certain product is outsized to the difference in manufacturing inputs. We routinely (in Aus anyhow) fork out +30% for 30/32c tyres. Just because an athlete has an elite FTP does not mean they can design an experiment to optimize a multi variable system! The cumulative measurement errors alone would far exceed the reported margins of benefit.
i find "width as measured" to be the most important metric these days. for example, 23, 25 and 28c GP4000 tires measure completely differently to 23, 25 and 28c GP5000 tires. the GP5000's all measuring much more narrow than the equivalent size GP4000. either way, my preference for balance between speed and comfort is to have a tire that measures between 29-30mm.
The rolling resistance test is not real world. As a system, wider tyres with lower pressure is more efficient unless you are on a very smooth velodrome. Even normal tarmac is very uneven, very stiff wheels and rock hard tyres will make the bike and you vibrate up and down, and that’s lost energy. Soft/wide tyres stop the bike moving up and down, the tyres measure slower in a lab,but the system will be faster. There are downsides. Heavy wheels don’t react as fast, and it just all feels slower. I don’t think they climb as well, but the data doesn’t support me - pros are smashing koms on 28 tyres. For pros, aero trumps all. As far as aero, wider seems to be quicker, counter intuitive, but it’s the overall shape of wheel and tyre that’s the key. Team GB used 25mm on the velodrome just for aero gains this year. We’ve seen the fastest ever roubaix, tour, giro, flanders recently, all on the new tyres. Evidence is, it’s faster. But, I don’t care, I run 23front, 25 rear, cos I like how it feels. Although winter bike is getting 30mm…
32 on rear 30 on front 🚀
Intriguing video; I totally understand why you would be skeptical about the bike industry's push for aero, except when it comes to wheels. (I think aero factors can be safely ignored by almost all of us; unless you're doing a time trial, aero probably doesn't matter very much.) I agree that a lot of the marketing of wider tires has to do with the attempt to get people to accept hookless rims, which I don't think will be successful, because hookless rims on bicycles is an insane idea. And I agree that GCN videos cannot be trusted; the number of times they have arrived at a conclusion they didn't expect or like and then just dismissed the results is almost comical. (e.g., pedals, wheels, aero bikes, Lycra, tire width...)
Personally, though, I do like wider tires; they are more comfortable, they are safer on the absolutely appalling paved roads of the United States, they allow me to make detours on unpaved roads once in a while, and, crucially, I believe they are much less prone to getting punctures. There's a lot of research out there at this point that suggests that running lower air pressures is actually faster, because of the effects of road imperfections on tires at higher pressures; and running lower pressures with narrower tires isn't a very good idea because of the low volume. I use clincher 32mm tires at 80-85 psi, with TPU tubes, on my own bike, and this works for me because I care a bit more about endurance than speed, but I think the sweet spot for most road bikes is probably 28mm. 28mm gives you all the benefits of wider tires, but beyond this width they start getting too heavy, without any additional benefit in comfort or rolling resistance.
This is a perfectly understandable analysis and I can only agree with it. My issues are mainly with the current language that it seems to be used in the industry: if wider tyres have some advantages, it does not mean other set up have become instantly slower. If disc brakes are now the preferred choice, it does not mean rim brakes are dangerous. It seems they can't prop up the new tech without discrediting the previous set ups.
Most wheel manufacturers want to produce hookless due to lower cost and complexity. That requires wide tires.
I'll be on hooked rims and inner tubes
@@fede1275 Same for me😁
Great video! I can't fit wide tires on my rim brake Allez Sprint but I don't care. Happy with 25mm.
What a wonderful discussion my friend! I believe that the fasted tire size depends on your current bicycle and rim and the road surface you intend to ride…. For my gravel bike - riding on loose rock and slippery descents my wheelset has 21mm internal rim diameter and I use 37c tires with lots of puncture protection and knobs - and I can tell you that it is 10,000% faster than my gorgeous and beloved TT bike with 50mm Carbon Rims (17mm internal rim width) and 28c tires (were I to risk my beautiful paint job taking her on those trails)… I am sure my “spoilt princess” would complain with every sharp rock that came near her rims…
BUT if I could clone myself and race against myself in a 40km time trial (riding on the asphalt) one of me on the TT bike and the other on my gravel bike there is no competition… “Princess” would already be at the Café enjoying her second cappuccino before the Gravel Bike joined the party!
I reckon moon gravel must be hard to ride 🤣
😂😂
The last 2 hour records have been set on 25mm tyres that measured 27.5mm, 25,mm tyres were used because they tested to be the fastest. If 25mm tyres are the fastest on a velodrome then they cannot be the fastest on the road.
Disagree. One of the disadvantages of thick tires is less favorable thickness-to-chord ratio. That is less of an issue if rim is very deep or if it is even a disc. On the velodrome thicker tire probably affects the whole system less.
@@jkk916 I'm not sure what or who you're disagreeing with. The team tested different tyres widths to see what was the fastest, 25s on the velodrome were the fastest.
@@kpizzle1985 I disagree with whoever may say that 25 mm tires are generally faster than 23 mm tires on road. I see no basis for that potential claim.
@@jkk916 ok, so you think to go faster on the track you use wider tyres than you do on the road? Interesting.
You're disagreeing with every professional cyclist that's existed in the last ~10 years 😅
@kpizzle1985 you didn't get the "thickness-to-cord" bit.
Science says it's faster :) Pog isn't only 30mm just because it's more comfortable.
I don't understand the confusion. Very sticky wider tyres with lower pressures for colder temperatures (sub-zero), grittier tyres for really rough terrain (like gravel/mud), and very thin high pressure tyres for "barber green"/airport smooth tarmac just like in the velodrome. We have already proven these things. Science didn't just start 2019 you know?
To convince yourself, ride the different set up in the different conditions and see how it goes.
bravissimo discorso! u are absolutely ritght in my opinion. we let us influence by the industry and as we know… marketing works.
It's just a matter of being realistic with the advice for different gear for different situations
My point is the bigger the pressure the faster tire would be on the ideal asphalt. 23c just forces you to inflate that immense pressure so it becomes faster on comparison
30mm's running tubeless at 50-55psi for me, doing a 200k tomorrow - comfy & fast,
As always Fred funny as hell 😂🤣😅..,me personally being 218lbs i prefer a slightly wider tire set up but not too wide as 28mm works really good for me. My front tire are set at 80 psi & my rear are set at 95 psi which for me is for now as good as it gets, love ya S-Works helmit but how are you fairing with it 🤔......,👊🏾👍🏾
Thank you, so far so good!
When tyre/rim combo is optimal for 23mm in frontwheel then go for it. (steers better, more aero, lighter, cheaper)
From about 1988 rode 23mm continental grand prix. Then around 1992 they were discontinued and something called "grand prix 4 season" replaced them. We're not as good but better puncture resistance I would say. Still cotton sidewalls. Roll forward to 2024 "grand prix 4 season " now have solid rubber sidewalls and very uncomfortable.
Bring back cotton sidewalls.
This has to be one of the best channels on youtube!
@@1rickqwert I agree 😀😂
23-25 mm is the best for me(172 heights 68 kgs).But if you too height or have too much weight 28-30 mm maybe the good choice
I totally agree with Mr Ciampella,I've been riding longer than most of these guys on GCN,and the rest of the choir,I used to ride 25's,now I'm using 28's,and I think it's the Best combination of speed and comfort,and I honestly believe its all selling points .So I say don't believe the Hype.,just ride what you can afford.😎
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Love the channel keep up the good work! Wider tyres were introduced to increase the contact patch required for the bite of disc brakes (also far more crashes in pro cycling), manufacturer's increased wheel width also to support the tyre to rim transition (for aerodynamics - see reserve wheels as an example). However, for rim brakes with a 19mm internal wheel (25mm tyres) are perfect! for anything above this, i.e. 21mm > 24mm internal rim width (28mm tyres) are best. If you want the best blend for speed and comfort, the compromise which I have found to be the fastest for rim brake bikes is: 21mm internal rims paired with a 28mm tyre on the rear and a 25mm on the front (lightweight too). My tyre of choice: GP 5000 TT TR - check out rolling resistance, less watts to achieve higher speeds = fast! #rim4roaddisc4dirt
@@chillipepper83 absolutely, agree 100%. Did not want to focus on rim vs discs, but you are right.
I've got a shed full of tires that are damn near new because I've made the purchases to try for myself which ones perform best. I've got four sets of wheels now two carbon and two aluminum with different inner rim widths and profiles. I agree with you, I am faster and feel faster on 25mm tires. I am currently testing some Challenge 27mm and I feel slower than I do on the Pirelli 26mm tires. So given my opinion I think this all comes down to the industry taking a backstep or slower approach to getting us to convert to tubeless setups. We all know tubeless works with fat tires and lower pressures but is shit with skinny high pressure tires. Think about it. For me I don't care if the 32mm wider coolness becomes the norm, I will never use tubeless sealant again. I've done enough tubeless setups to know it's a headache and a mess I can't be bothered with anymore.
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Riding 28c now. Recently started doing much longer rides, so I’ll be going up to 32c. The added tire volume will add some much needed comfort, also even with inner tubes you can run lower pressures. It’s not hype at all.
@@crypto_que I'm all good with increased comfort 👍
My BMC Teammachine came with 25mm tyres. It will 'only' accept up to 30mm max. A slightly wider tyre with less pressure will give you better grip in corners because of the larger contact patch, hence crit riders, but the larger contact patch automatically means more rolling resistance for the same given compound. I might go up to 28mm just for comfort, when i finally trash the 25's on it now. But I will get the speed back by using a better tyre than the one it came fitted with (mid level Vittorias)
Thanks for sharing. May I ask which teammachine you owe? I have the 2015 rim brake slr02 and I fit it with 28mm, I want to go wider for some shitty roads in Surrey, but I don't have a 30mm or 32mm to try. I am not sure where is the limit (with clearance) and don't want to spend £120 on gp 5000 32mm without a use for them.
@@massaka17 oh mine’s disc brake, 2022/23 model. 30mm is its stated max, i’ve only run 25mm so far
Another reason for the push is because of hydraulic disc brakes. Wider tires help a bit with those panic stops 😂 but not by much.
I slid into a deer and hit it side ways with both tires. Fun times 👍
Back then there was no carbon rims. 19-23 wide tires were standard, because there was a very narrow aluminium rim for these - 15 mm internal was perfect.
When carbon showed up - if made at that width, no wheel could stand 3 weeks of TdF racing (or others), not to mention races via cobbles. So the rims had to become wider and wider to gain any reasonable strength and safety. pulling the tire business behind, for a perfect rolling resistance. Look ~10 years back, when carbon rims were pretty much an obvious choice for each race, many riders still aluminium wheels for Paris-Roubaix, just not to end up in a terrible crash/injuries somewhere on the way.😆
My personal, recent experience using Conti TT's, the 26mm felt snapier while the 28mm felt smoother once rolling. I don't race so I'm not stressing over marginal gains so like other posters here I agree with them and go with what you like based on your use case. Just go out and ride, don't get too caught up in the science, sometimes the old days were great were you had to work with what you had and know and manage your body and ride senses, not tech or science to ruin the time experience. Riders are faster now maybe because of the tech and science but I believe that it depersonalizes the riding experience.
when it comes to UAE's choice I always have the scene in mind which you show at 11:30, Pogacar clearly crashed there because of the hookless Enve rims - and, as you said, with these rims they could only solve the problem by using wider tires with lower pressure. On top of that, the tarmac in France is extremely rough, so it's the area where narrower tires and higher pressure don't show their qualities anyways.
I use 25mm or 25 front and 28 back most of the time and I think that is the maximum making sense where I live. ...btw, for Alpine tours I still like to use my Bora's with tubulars because of the superior safety - though they are slower than modern clinchers with latex tubes (what I believe is the case not because tubulars are always slower but because clinchers and tubeless are developed further and further, while the tubulars, Conti Competition Pro Ltd or Podium TT in my case, are still the same as 20 years ago)
Good points
23C rocks my world, as always, for this old N. Italiano in SW FL, USA :-)
I've noticed a very noticeable difference in top speeds hit on freewheeling descents around me between 40mm and 32mm gravel tires. According to BRR, the 40mm I have should be around 17.4w RR and the 32mm at 20w RR, yet the 32mm are 3-4mph faster at top speed on steep descents IE I'll hit 42mph with the 40mm and 45mph on the 32mm pretty regularly (the 32mm are on LESS aero wheels to boot). That sort of speed difference is REALLY important in a race since you can make up (or lose) so much time on descents without putting in much effort. I think this is the primary reason the peloton is still mostly on 28mm.
I think people trust the BRR site too much, and discounting the effect that wide tires have on the cyclists in riding over crappy portions of road. BRR also does not account for the what effect the tread pattern has on the tire with varied road surfaces since it's just a steel drum. It measures the efficiency of the casing and that's pretty much it, it's missing a large component of how the tire performs with the interaction of the face of the tire on different surfaces.
Yes, but I simply believe a 23 or 25c tyre on a 50mm carbon wheels with an external width between 25 and 27mm would penetrate the air faster than a 32c tyre on a 32mm wide rim. Smaller is faster as less aero drag?
I can only go 26mm on my bike but it is all good since my paths are fairly good most of the time in terms of smoothness. And I still like high pressure around 98psi. My other track bike could do 28mm which seems like the ideal size in my type of turf.
its a give and take, for long steady endurance rides wider may be better, more so for comfort, for faster efforts and especially on smoother roads 25 or 28 is perfect.
Wider tyres need wider rims yeah? All that equals extra weight?
I'll stick with prime wheels, Vittoria n.ext 26 mil tyres and ridenow TPU tubes. Works for me.
Great video! I can’t say the push for wide tires is necessarily a conspiracy but it might as well be one. The cycling industry from the 1980s on has one goal and one goal only and that is to quickly sell products. Quality bicycles can do their job for many decades with only basic maintenance. That creates a sales problem. Why was Campagnolo regarded the best component manufacturer in the 60s 70s and early 80s? You could count on it like nothing else made in that era. Not the best business model as it turns out. The cycling industry operates on planned obsolescence. Whatever you ride today will be holding you back tomorrow. Time for a new bike. Statistics and tests can be manipulated and tuned to say just about anything you want. I am not saying that some things have not improved but most of this is pure marketing.
Carbon rims were once narrow in the same dimensions as the aluminum rims they replaced. That didn’t work so will. Carbon rims need a much beefier cross section to work properly. From there It all starts to get a bit wonky, we go down the slippery slope. Wide tires, disc brakes and aerodynamics to the rescue. An entirely new standard that makes all that once was great obsolete and it can be justified by some decimal point in a statistic. Problem solved! The industry supports its self and my old race bike that I once absolutely loved is garbage. Conspiracies don’t exist.
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Grant from GC Performance had the same opinion and would talk about how narrow tyres with higher pressure were best. He now runs 32mm on his SL8 🙃
@@lukedebono maybe from a bike shop perspective you can understand it...
I don’t think it’s a conspiracy Federico, I’ve got a rim brake frame with 25s and disc with 28s and the 28s are faster everywhere BUT the 25s always feel faster for some reason. I’ve done my own test which was as controlled as I could make it and this again showed a considerable win for the wider tyres.
When I started road cycling in 2017 I was on 25s and I think as the industry started to transition towards 28s and tubeless the pros were still using 25mm tubulars, now I would say the situation is the opposite, most cyclists are on 28mm tyres and the pros are moving towards wider for example Tadej Pogacar ran 30mm at the TDF and even 32mm on at least one stage.
On a personal level I’ll take the fact that the increased comfort is worth it, the roads around Leicestershire aren’t the worst in the UK but they never get any better, I’m running my 28s at 58/68psi and have a set of 30mm to fit when these wear out.
I read a study sometime in the past that people relate increased vibration and some lost of stability as being 'fast', while smooth is 'slow'. This applies to cars, but the same can be said for bikes. So if you are on narrow tyres at higher pressure, the ride can be more jittery hence feels fast.
@@davidlau2467Yes that would make a lot of sense 👍
@@davidlau2467 however how come in all those years it seems no one found a better solution to narrow tyres and high pressures? And we are talking about racers that did literally everything to win and have an advantage on others
No, actually smooth feels faster. And while narrower with “decreased” comfort still feels faster, it means they are bloody faster.
Interestingly..when the Industry pushed disc brakes,suddenly wide tyres are ‘faster’….just by coincidence skinny tyres are simply NOT SAFE with disc brakes.-just saying!
For many reasons I have a preference for skinny rubber. For sure I like the feel of the ride. Embracing those scabby roads. It makes you work, it makes the bike work and when those smooth twisty bits arrive, they will feel so much more electric. Challenge your skills and enlighten yourself, ride dynamic and feel it. When I swing my leg over, I wanna feel pushed and exhilarated and doing something I can remember. In essence, the ride for me should condition the mind, body and sole. Not some monotonous sedentary lazyboy action🚴🚴🚴🤟
Abso-f-lutely!!
Aero beats rolling resistance, I ride 24 mm because the tyre-rim transition is smoother in my setup (and on tarmac).
I've been riding 28s but my roads in Iowa are so shitty, I'm switching to 32c next season
You’re going uphill. A good steep climb. You hit a rough patch. What does it do? Makes it harder. The rougher the ride the more energy lost. Which tires will go over that rough patch, narrow and hard or wider and softer? Do I have to answer? So the answer is, it depends. Most of us run on less than perfect roads.
Yes, but as soon as I hit the power and I see a tyre bending soft under me, I don't like it and I believe it does not transmit the power down. The rough patch is only a bump over a much longer ride
I have done several tests, same power, uphill and on the flat on gravel, road bike 25mm vs gravel bike 40mm. No huge difference in bike weight (
I ride 28's on my road bikes. They work for me in all situations. I could go wider but don't feel that's necessary.
My guess is because 0 yaw aero gains are exaggerated while wider tyres and rim combo seems to perform better under real life environment. (More gains in >0 yaw)
@@pskonejott2568 not sure about that, larger volume is always less aero with the same shape?
@@fede1275 I'm also on the course of understanding this, it's to the point I've purchased some wide LB rim to test in person. Perhaps I'll update you when my wheels come.
@fede1275 Not necessarily, Dylan Johnson wind tunnel tested for Unbound and found that 2.2 inch Conti Race Kings were virtually the same as some narrower gravel tires.
As Josh Portner always says about aero guesses, "It depends."
In other words, nothing about aero can be "calculated" without wind tunnel testing.
@@kenmoum162 for sure, yes. But some general statements can be very close too. People were flying planes or using sails before wind tunnels and CFD.
@fede1275 seriously? We're talking about aero drag differences that are truly marginal gains. The real scientists who do wind tunnel testing know that conventional wisdom isn't useful.
What tire pressure can you tolerate? Does it allow you to put down power at all times? Everybody is riding in different conditions and they have different tire pressure tolerance (road buzz). I believe we're making a mistake when we choose our wheelsets first and tires second. Pick the tires first then the wheelset. If you require 60psi then you need wider tires and wider rims. If you can ride at 110psi then those will slow you down. Stay with 23C.
Here's the fun part. Some frames have lots of road buzz (often aero frames), requiring wider tires to produce the same comfort as a different frame. Meaning, your favorite aero bike might slow you down. Ideally pick a comfortable aero frame, if there is such a thing + 23C.
If you can ride 23C tires for 5h and not stop pedaling over every little bump in the road, then you're already optimal Federico. 😊
Here's a tip for you. The rear wheel has very little impact on aero so you can go one size wider there without a penalty. Keep the front wheel aero optimal though (tire + rim same width). 23C + 25C combo.
@@mikeh6286 I'm now at 98 or so on the 23c and between 90 and 95 on 25c. Feels okay and manageable so far
Mate.wider tires better traction on downhill.less vibrations.those bilions very little potholes and imperfections in tarmac slov you down.i believe over all the science is right it makes sence.i think in future you will accept this and you will ride 30-32c tires.it is just safer faster more comfortable.aero gain in this case is bit less then decreased vibrations.accept that
What you seem to oversee is...what is the messured width?
Numbers on the tyre don´t mean anything, a 28mm can be 28 on one rim, and 31 on a other.
My take is, you have to have the right rim/tyre combination. For my Wheels that is a 28mm GP5000, gives my a snug transition from tyre to rim and matches my rim width of 30.5mm perfectly.
Yes, it seems that the 105 ratio is the priority for aero, as the rim slightly larger than the tyre. But then between 2 set ups both at 105 ratio, which one is faster? The fatter or the slimmer?
@@fede1275 I would assume, if you take the rider out of the equation, the thinner.
But that is only in the lab.
In the real world, where the Wind is always changing, that would be very minimal.
28 to 32 mm means you can run lower pressure and it’s definitely more comfortable. Unless you’re a pro the difference in speed is negligible. Ten seconds over 150 km matters for a pro, but not if you’re doing grand fondos. You probably would increase your aero efficiency a lot more if you do some yoga 🧘 and can sit comfortably a bit lower on the bike. Your body is the biggest obstacle for speed. Personally I run 28mm because Pirelli Zero 28mm with tan wall was on sale. I had a very comfortable Challenge 30 mm tires before that, but they wore out quite fast.
Agree with you. You have made a very understandable point, I just disagree with the "wide is faster" blanket statements
25mm tyres on both my Canyon ultimate cf slx rim & Specialized sl5 s-w rim. 7 bar front , 7.8 bar rear. Works perfect (for me 80kg) . 32mm only on my Canyon commuter bike :).
Right on
For what it's worth, I have found a wider rim, 25mm internal with 28mm tyres seems to be the fastest setup over 100k on road but I use 32mm tyres because the speed difference is minimal and gives increased comfort. Could just be a placebo effect? Are the 28s more aero over a longer distance? Consistency of the data? The ride environment permutations are endless, probably?
What it means in the real world, who knows as my weight and fitness fluctuate wildly?
*Statistics 101* the same data can tell a different story depending on how it's presented.
What about the difference in weight between older (right back when thinner tyres became the norm) tyre sizes compared to the difference in weight between the sizes now?
Yes, interesting. For now I do prefer a lighter setup with 25c on the Canyon and 21mm internal rim width. Funny 25c was considered a wider option not that long ago