What I take from this is that mainstream high end bikes are made as light as possible and are therefore more fragile and you pay a premium for this to offset warranty claims. A Chinese frame from a company trying to build a good reputation is still a quality frame built more robustly to prevent a bad press and potential customers giving them a wide berth. There is inevitably a weight penalty to this but would this be only 100-200grams. I personally would prefer a more robust frame if it's only going to be a couple of hundred grams heavier.
I think there is also the subjective part regarding comfort, engineered stiffness and aero. The chinese bikes have generally less R&D regarding these variables. They know that peoples egos rather have a carbon bike even if it is not more comfortable than an aluminitum bike. Also, most people who only have 1000 dollars for a carbon frame are not likely to need the performance of the name brands because they are not used for serious competition.
In years of steel frames lightweight tubing did cost more and required more skills (to a degree) to build a race frame. Consumer frames were made from more durable and heavier tubing (100-500 grams, like that) and did cost less, materials alone and many more builders could work tubes into quality frame without wasting materials. Of course, heavily breathing dads always want to pay more for a race frame and top tier components))
You are very right. My takeaway: I once bought a Cannondale Aluminum CAAD3 bike, because if Cippolini couldn't crack it I 100 % can't. Bike is still in use, at least from time to time. Then I went to a very thin walled titanium bike. It cracked where seat- and downtube joined into one tube just above the bottom bracket. Currently I ride my 11 year old Fondriest TF3 with more than 50k on the clock. I am still very content with the riding and the durability of the frame. I would rather buy a more robust Chinese frameset at a decent price than a very delicate and expensive (also Chinese made) from Western brands. I see no advantage in having a rather fragile bike that gets replaced when it cracks. Bikes better not crack or break - for safety reasons. So a robust, well manufactured frame set with a small weight penalty that doesn't break the bank would be my choice. In that regard the video was very informative.
@@mmh129Bike warranty very often is valid only for original owner. Or it's time limited. Oh, here's snippet from Canyon site: _The Warranty Period on Canyon frames is six (6) years from the date of delivery to the original purchaser._ You can figure yourself cases when third-party frame shops will get more job.
It's fascinating the evolution of carbon frames and technology in the last 20 years. I remember a high end Felt carbon bike from around 2012 in a shop where the manager was pointing out (in a good way) the ability to pinch and depress the top tube in the center while the tube closer to the joints was stiff. The tube noticeably deformed when pinched.
Right - Years ago there seemed to be less concern about the longevity of bicycle frames. These modern bicycles being shown are lightweight, expensive and disposable bikes. I think it's called planned obsolescence.
@@LightYagamiVSLYou are an example of 1. I am thinking that videos discussing the integrity of carbon frames would not need to be made if there wasn't problems. Let's hope your good luck continues.
Hahah no cracks *that you know of*. If there are cracks you don't know about, you'll find out very suddenly and very dramatically. That's the "joy" of epoxy glue with carbon fiber bikes.
Rob’s company did a fantastic job of repairing a hole in my down tube from a stone last year. The quality of the finish on their work was very impressive. My only complaint is that I then had no excuse to go out and get myself a completely new bike lol 😮
@@idontwantacallsign Sure i myself dont like carbon, but is light, and also that is why there are plastic frame protections, so one can get a kit or 3 kits, and install them on multiple places, where rocks can hot or something else, and be fine.. Some ppl have carbon bikes from 20 years, and they still ride them fine... Ofc titanium frame is on a whole other level, it is indestructible, but is more heavy too..
Rob,s experience is second to non,some other channels are busy trying to belittle other peoples work,and experience, one in particular, but people will see through the comments language and snipes,keep doing what you are doing Jourdain.....My old Trifox has featured a lot recently and done you proud!
I have one too. Bought in 2008 and still going strong - with a lifetime warranty. Handles like a dog compared to my newer bike (2017 Colnago), but great in all other ways.
Do you not think it's an end user problem (fragile bike frames) as most bikes are designed for 20yr old 50kg athlete's and not some 90kg + middle aged out of shape bloke who can afford these 10-18k bikes. They were never designed for their use in the first place . 🤔
I'd say that "monocoque" is/was used to distinguish these modern "full carbon" frames (that only use metal for threaded inserts) from early ones like the Giant Cadex series that only used straight tubes and aluminium for the joints/vital points (bottom bracket, head tube, seatpost clamp, rear brake mount and the whole fork was still aluminium). Similar to very old steel frames that had joints with sleeve sockets and then were soldered instead of directly welding the parts together.
I was lucky enough to buy a Specialized S Works and the ride is amazing. Ive had a number of carbon road bikes, but the high end carbon is something different.
I would say that the video didn't really address the difference between good and bad carbon frames. It lightly addressed the difference in layup techniques but really the true difference between good and bad frames is the quality control. A "good" frame may have high modulus carbon and bits and pieces of twill around the joints but be a complete lemon of a frame and/or design. Unless the carbon is fully impregnated and it is properly compressed the frame is always at risk of failure. Similarly if the frame doesn't have good tolerances on the bearing mounting faces and on the dropouts then it is going to kill bearings and by killing bearings the rider is having to put down more watts for the same output. There's good design, good assembly and good quality control. This video really only touched on the design portion. The thin wall sections allow extra carbon to be put on the areas where extra strength is needed due to it being a high stress area and/or it is an area where the assembly process is lacking. Grabbing 50g of carbon from the top tube and putting it around the bottom bracket to compensate for bad layup or lack of compaction doesn't necessarily make a frame "good".
Strength of the frame is very important especially for MTB. For me strength would be the top priority, even if it means gaining some weight, awkwardness, or extra $$
I took the plunge just over a year ago and after doing online research of different brands bought a frame from ELVES and I love it. I later found out that ELVES have nearly 20yrs experience in making carbon frames and a lot of that time doing R&D for a few western brands and in doing so gaining valuable knowledge before starting to develop their own frames. They're surely not the only Chinese frame manufacturer in the same situation. I feel that if you do careful research and due diligence you can get yourself a quality frame that should be robust, well designed with a wealth of knowledge behind it and not have to pay the earth for the privilege.
I thought of doing that too, but went with another aluminium bike... Heavy as hell, compared to what the carbon people have, but that just means I need to lose weight.
I did the same. Got me a Evo with the wheelset and handelbars, put a 105 DI2 on it. Rides like a dream, at half the cost of an "brand" bike + i got too choose my colors.
@@66mikkim with Elves is like getting a bespoke build, amazing bikes. I built mine up with hydraulic 105 and it feels like a Ferrari to ride for Ford prices
Been through a few bikes since 1980's. Currently hold 1 road, 1 gravel from Specialized and a road Yoeleo - all carbon. Yoeleo w/Ultegra Di2 12 sp. and deep carbon wheels was ~½ price of the last Specialized. No discernable difference to me. All three are great rides. YMMV.
Fascinating to see how thin the walls are. My only carbon bike is a GT Grade carbon. The seat stays are solid fibre glass however the frame is apparently sub 1 kilo. I always worry is often run Ortlieb quick release rack. This attachs to an alloy seat post and alloy screw holes next to the through hub axles, designed for mudguards and possibly racks! Interested in informed comments!
The Canyon and other high end bikes are very purpose built and they aren't great outside of that envelope. I treat my Canyon very gently outside of that envelope but it rides great.
i dont have a carbon frame and still watched for some knowledge. i almost have one, until i realized i ride the bus back home after a very long ride. so i picked up an alu and cf fork. i dont want the bus to hit a big bump and the bike hits a post underneath. i dont have issues with bumps while riding because i know it will manage that, but if it was transported under a bus and it hit a funny angle then you never know with a cf frame. so i ended up with the alloy+cf combo
if you want a dirt cheap carbon bike that can take you around neighbour hood or to work/school, the chinese bike is the way to go though..I see chinese people ride 100km+ on those trifox bike with no issue, its just depends what you really want to do with the bike.
Like fine wines, my riding is such that I really can't the difference between the good stuff and all the cheapest stuff. I've got two cheap Chinese carbon frames, and honestly have had more quality issues with the $1400 name brand frame. My carbon MTB frame has had a rough life as a bikepacking bike, and other than a cable port issue, it has been brilliant. My carbon GT30 gravel bike had some poorly masked paint edges, but has been trouble free. My Salsa aluminum frame showed up with multiple sheared off bolts, clear coat scuffing, and a poorly aligned cargo rack despite its $1400 price tag and name brand. While I hold out no hope for warranty service long term, at $500-600 per frame I don't really care too much if the frame dies some day. Most of us will notice good tire choice and proper pressure more than a cheap vs. name brand frame.
China are building for the mainstream market, not hill climb specialists that represent 0.01% of the market. You get what you pay for. Only a handful of brands are layup specialists working their own layup schedule. No point building out of t800 and high mod uni if your targeting a mid range do it all bike.
Does the Superior bike brand, such as the Superior XP 929 Lightweight Carbon Frame Hardtail, have good carbon fiber bike frames? thanks for sharing your expertise
It would be interesting to see more carbon mtb frame analyses and comparisons. My only experience is mtb, and I've always wondered why, with enduro and dh bikes, they don't just use more carbon and make it generally more robust given that weight is not big deal in gravity events and folks often crash and smash rocks into their frame. People crack carbon enduro frames all the time. I have a short travel Devinci that has a aluminum rear triangle, which seems pretty smart. My hardtail is a Framed Bobtrack (RIP Framed) surely made in the east and definitely overbuilt. It is still a very light frame. I know that it is overbuilt because I have smashed the frame with large, sharp rocks a number of times, with significant damage. If the tubes had been super thin, it would be in the garbage. I was shocked at how thick the chain stays around the bb are after throwing a large rock into them. I just threw some 2 part epoxy on there and it was good to go! Many miles later, many of which were at enduro team practice under my hard riding son (the one who snapped the rear triangle on his Polygon twice), doing things it was in no way intended for, it is solid. My other related experience with "cheap" carbon is with DIY carbon brand XC wheels and Amazon handlebars. Both have taken years of abuse and are fine. Can't say enough good things about those wheels, very light, insanely stiff, extremely well built, and have held up better than bontrager carbon wheels.
i'm pretty sure most CF mtb frames are wildly overbuilt. santa cruz has given lifetime warranty since the beginning for their CF frames. and i have never seen one crack, at least not by riding. crashing is a different story but i wouldn't want my bike to be built to handle a toptube landing on a rock. that bike would be so stiff my teeth would fall out.
I was considering a C68 until I heard "because a carbon bicycle that's bonded with glue together is kind of defeats the object of the exercise" Thanks Rob
This is behind the times.. Specialized and other major brands which once were made in Taiwan, are being contracted out to mainland China. From 2014 thru 2019 I raced chinese carbon mtbs exclusively, and won more than my share of races, riding more than 350 kilometers every week, and had zero issues on my frames. If yu travel andLIVE in an asian country, like I have, and race against MANY different Chinese carbon brands, you know they al function about the same. I never heard of any failures in stress fractures from the many many riders who race them throughout Thailand as I have.
Chinese making every type of quality bike, lots of quality big brand European bike are manufactured in china with quality inspection. Chinese bike are cheap and we can afford them . And we like this 👍
One thing you've missed is pretty telling, most of the bike frames from "major manufacturers" are literally the exact same bike built in the same factory to a different standard. Just because you buy a bike from a western country doesn't mean it actually is made there (unless you're buying a Look or Time frame, there might be others as well) many are made in China to a western specification.
Winspace is a cheaper chinese frame with marketing money thrown at influencers. At least they're honest about it, saying they use T800. Quite a few OEM selling frames for 500-600-700 have started using T1000 and T1100, even. Mixed in w T800, no doubt, but you're now getting 900g frames in 54. Winspace isn't there, but you pay for their marketing budget. It's China going full circle.
@@Pablo_Coach sure. You have all the answers, good for you. And let's not talk about how many people even consider buying Time frames. Or their absence from grand tour circuits, because it's not true at all that people want to ride what the pros ride. I'll stop there.
And i ride custom made Canyon Exceed CF SL 8.0, that all pared except the frame and fork was replaced.. And the frame is fine from 2 years so far, but i do plan to install multiple bike frame protector kits on it..
Don't lump all chinese framesets and wheels into the same camp. There are huge variances in quality. Also all western frames are made in china. Built and ridden many chinese brands. Trifox is the worse quality and consistency. Winspace has been the best so far.
The most important thing with carbon is confidence in the manufacturing. Finished you can’t see much(even if you cut the frame open like this) So what you get with a non Chinese manufacturer ist that they have a name to lose so they invest more into quality
You talk about western and Chinese frames I was under the impression 99% of bike frames are made in China. Which frames are made that are not made in China.
could you please somehow split the video , impossible to find where review split from one frame to another. I started to watch this video because in was Specilized frame on the preview but finally i didn’t find it :(
This hunt for the last 150-200g off the frame weight is ridiculous, total irrelevant to performance and the result is more fragile bikes. Giant has cut 75 grams of weight off of the top-spec 2024 TCR Advanced SL frame but still can't make the saddle point straight forward.
Definitely I don´t like carbon fibre. I like more the precision of CNC parts and titanium hand made frames or steel ... or even Aluminium ones, RM used to built quite nice frames like Elements, ETSX etc with nice finish.
I am happy that I bought an aluminium instead of a carbon gravel bike recently 😂 Makes me feel more confident despite of the additional fiew extra grams
Interesting he's saying bigger brands your paying for their so called technology but they would be getting feed back from the Chinese factories on how to build it cheaper and lighter so who's actually coming up with the technology also bigger brands are factoring warranty claims so they can build the bikes lighter nowhere in the video does he say the Chinese frames will fail first?? He still dose not give you a lot of confidence in the bigger brands .
Yeah ... Cam Nicholls's channel does nothing else than to show us how bad chinese frames are and promote high end frames. It's his hobby maybe. GCN ... that's an advertising channel I don't even watch that anymore. Plenty of ads on TV. Great job man. Apreciate the channel. If I may say - the difference is the price. Nothing else.
all carbon frames are bad..you should go for full Titanium, last longer, looks better, also very light, doesn't rust, and is more safe I have seen a lot of terrible injuries of people that went into the woods en their carbon bike frame broke down..it gives very sharp splinters causing very bad injuries....
Build a bike frame that isa little heavier. The placment of carbon and the quality of the build doesn't matter as much. They can also use lower strength, lower priced carbon. The frame maybe a little bit heavier, but it's durable enough and a good riding bike for most of us. I have built a velobuild endurance bike. Very nice bike, light enough, everything fit and a very responsive and comfortable bike.
Long story short, just because it’s cooked in the same kitchen, doesn’t mean it’s made with the same recipe. The people who work on it, what ingredients and the amount of each ingredients they use may vary.
Thanks for the video. Many years ago I did own a carbon Look 585 Tube & Lug style carbon bike. It was nice. But ever since carbon went to this style of carbon monocoque frame it just seems like total crap. All this so called "tuning" by laying a couple more patches of scrap carbon fiber in places just shows how cheap these frames are period. My frames will continue to be some form of metal (alum, steel ,titanium) from here on in
High-end carbon bikes are sold at outrageous prices because they are sold with the same economical logic as any luxury goods (some bike brands are even owned by luxury goods corporations...). The main part of the price being advertising on which bikes brands are spending millions, way more than on engineering.
Ohh compared thin round tube of Canyon to AERO Trifox frame.... yeah they are different purpose built . May be aero flat framing does not need to be thin and that's why and not because "they don't know what they are doing" lol.
85 percent of cyclists dont need carbon. Hence: bang for the buck nowadays is a big factor ( if u really want carbon) as long as safety is good enough.
Very good. Thanks. But the presentation could be improved by showing more bike, less moving back and forth on the bike, and less face because we don’t need to see his face. Know what I mean.
Can confirm Canyon frames are fragile. Their warranty is not good and they no longer honor the crash replacement program. This is probably the reason so many people are repairing instead of replacing. Also, the reason I ended up here. Had to find a third party repair for a frame they agreed was covered by the warranty but because they didn't have any in stock of the same model they only offered me 20% discount on a full price new bike. Extremely disappointed.
You are looking at the wrong part of the bike if you're trying to figure why some are so expensive. No need to spend time cutting the frames up. Just look st the stickers on the outside and save yourself a lot of time and energy
This "good" vs "bad" explanation is extremely vague, but im glad i dont own a canyon. Ill also say there are shocking videos of cannondale frame construction too else where on youtube (mapdec).
making wall thickness beefier on carbon bikes is the best move any brand can make. imagine a specialized sl8 frame 3xs heavier because the wallthickness is 3xs. that bike would be bullet proof and nice and stiff.
@4:42 is a very arrogant comment. The tubes are uniformly thick simply using lower strength carbon hens more material. It is built to a price point and from a production level it delivers. As far as "engineering" goes, none of (near to none) the so-called Western brand has invested in manufacturing assets not to mention processing technology. Look at the Semiconductor industry; major companies can "design" 3nm chips but it is heavily rely on TSMC to make that production possible. The cycling industry is full of marketing BS, and that is what changed Giant from a manufacturing powerhouse into running its own brand-much much higher profit margin.
agree on the first part, but not on the second. The knowledge of engineering the layup doesn't require you to also develop the production. It is a partnership and dependence can be a good thing and not everything has to end in a trade war. A small budget team with skilled engineers can design an outstanding bike, but they would have zero chance producing.
not as bikes, it can be but under airtight facilities, after epoxy resin cures hardens it becomes more hazardous, as chunks no, but as burned fumes or lint particles will damage lungs!!!problem is length, some carbon you want a long layup say 15 inches downtube 1 piece....well recycled fragments of 1/4 inch wont do that, it will become brittle like glass
Western bike brands, here look at this Giant... Company based in Taiwan... This company started as an OEM very similar to the other Chinese Based brands that make the Pinarello also shown. 10 years ago the argument is the carbon frame from western companies would last longer now canyon is Built cheaply for purpose. Feels like he is grasping for differences from bikes built in the same factory. Right now the quality control is the difference and marketing has us believing that the bigger name bike companies do that better. Maybe not so in the future
watching this video more and more made me want to buy a steel or titanium bike frame. Seeing how much these bikes look like they're made of plastic is really off-putting. Also I think it's disgusting to shit on chinese bikes because they're designed to last, and praise canyon because their bikes are so fragile but they have a great customer return policy for when your frame brakes or becomes compromised. How do you figure this out before you eat pavement sandwich? Who wants to deal with having your bike frame break and then deal with returning and rebuilding it?
I cry bullshit! Here's the deal...most carbon frames are made in GuanJo China sometimes in the same plant as Specialized and Merida. These bikes have the same group sets, sometimes the same wheels and tires.and so forth. It's the markup when they get to Europe or North America where the bullshit starts. These Chinese get paid the same amount to make a Specialized frame set as they do to make a Sava or Twitter frame set. So, they figure let's sell these on our own and make some extra money. This analysis is a lot of smoke and mirrors. I built a plane with some of the components being carbon fiber. It's not rocket science. Just don't use them for gravel or mountain bikes, none of them are suitable.
FYI: a bike that costs $5,000 in the US can easily reach $7,500 or $8,000 (if you can even get it) in Latin America, where an average person's income is just a fraction of what people earn in the first world countries. And all that coverage you talk about, warranty and spare parts? It's like rolling dices. You may be lucky and get support from a local dealer, but in most cases is the Wild West and you're on your own. So I think most of these videos completely miss the point regarding "cheap" Chinese products. If your'e in Europe or the USA, of course it makes sense to go with the safer bet. But the world is now global in case you didn't notice, and most of your concerns are really minor if you can get something that works well enough for just a fraction of what it would cost to get the real deal. It's not like you have a choice really, it's more like that's the only thing that many people will ever be able to afford.
It's a term used when the chain comes off the chainrings or cassette and gets wedged against the frame. It can cause some serious damage to either the chainstay or seat stay. And that sucks
Interesting video. But kinda sad they take a Trifox frame and throw all the Chinese frames there won't comparing it to a high end carbon frame. It's skewed, it's wrong. It's like you take the cheapest American car and you compare it to the highest Mercedes. Doesn't make sense. Compare what's comparable. I find it borderline racist the generalization that transpires. Take a Winspace that's at least higher quality if you want to make a fair comparison. The argument about distance is sketchy too. Chinese brands have warehouse in Europe / NA.
yours is a "my bro told me" story. I myself had a canyon chainstay fail and 8 days later the replacement arrived. your friend didn't tell you all the details or was lying
I got a Canyon bike, had an issue with a part, got immediately a package from the company + they paid a bike store around the corner to install everything. Can't complain from my side.
@@Xarx42 I am sure they honour their warranty most of the time. But my point is it should be all of the time. And they clearly don't do it all the time. But I am glad it worked out for you. I would just not take the gamble that I might be one of the unlucky ones that get a crappy service
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What I take from this is that mainstream high end bikes are made as light as possible and are therefore more fragile and you pay a premium for this to offset warranty claims.
A Chinese frame from a company trying to build a good reputation is still a quality frame built more robustly to prevent a bad press and potential customers giving them a wide berth.
There is inevitably a weight penalty to this but would this be only 100-200grams.
I personally would prefer a more robust frame if it's only going to be a couple of hundred grams heavier.
Fact
Nailed it. Is a few grams and a brand name worth thousands?
I think there is also the subjective part regarding comfort, engineered stiffness and aero. The chinese bikes have generally less R&D regarding these variables. They know that peoples egos rather have a carbon bike even if it is not more comfortable than an aluminitum bike. Also, most people who only have 1000 dollars for a carbon frame are not likely to need the performance of the name brands because they are not used for serious competition.
In years of steel frames lightweight tubing did cost more and required more skills (to a degree) to build a race frame. Consumer frames were made from more durable and heavier tubing (100-500 grams, like that) and did cost less, materials alone and many more builders could work tubes into quality frame without wasting materials.
Of course, heavily breathing dads always want to pay more for a race frame and top tier components))
You are very right. My takeaway: I once bought a Cannondale Aluminum CAAD3 bike, because if Cippolini couldn't crack it I 100 % can't. Bike is still in use, at least from time to time. Then I went to a very thin walled titanium bike. It cracked where seat- and downtube joined into one tube just above the bottom bracket. Currently I ride my 11 year old Fondriest TF3 with more than 50k on the clock. I am still very content with the riding and the durability of the frame. I would rather buy a more robust Chinese frameset at a decent price than a very delicate and expensive (also Chinese made) from Western brands. I see no advantage in having a rather fragile bike that gets replaced when it cracks. Bikes better not crack or break - for safety reasons. So a robust, well manufactured frame set with a small weight penalty that doesn't break the bank would be my choice. In that regard the video was very informative.
I don’t endorse Canyon, but their very thin carbon layup keeps me in business. 🧐😂
Not a good advert for Canyon.
It also means they aren't replacing them under warranty. That's why people have to repair.
@@mmh129Bike warranty very often is valid only for original owner. Or it's time limited. Oh, here's snippet from Canyon site:
_The Warranty Period on Canyon frames is six (6) years from the date of delivery to the original purchaser._
You can figure yourself cases when third-party frame shops will get more job.
@@mmh129My friend has personal experience of Canyon NOT honouring the warranty
Had a Scott RC1 tip over and crack the top tube on some skirting board, was able to get it repaired but that carbon was eggshell thin!
It's fascinating the evolution of carbon frames and technology in the last 20 years. I remember a high end Felt carbon bike from around 2012 in a shop where the manager was pointing out (in a good way) the ability to pinch and depress the top tube in the center while the tube closer to the joints was stiff. The tube noticeably deformed when pinched.
Press too hard and the underlying carbon may split within the tube even as it bounces back on the outside.
I don't own a carbon frame (nor do I want one) but I always watch your vids with Rob as it's a fascinating insight into manufacturing.
Right - Years ago there seemed to be less concern about the longevity of bicycle frames. These modern bicycles being shown are lightweight, expensive and disposable bikes. I think it's called planned obsolescence.
@@daniellarson3068Everything have planned obsolescence nowadays. You can blame smartphone and car companies for starting this trend
@@daniellarson3068 disposable? I have multiple carbon frames, some of them over 10 years old, with zero issues.
@@LightYagamiVSLYou are an example of 1. I am thinking that videos discussing the integrity of carbon frames would not need to be made if there wasn't problems. Let's hope your good luck continues.
Carbon is fantastic ❤
I have a canyon ultimate sl8, their last rim brake climbing bike and after a few crashes no cracks so far. I'm confident in German engineering.
Hahah no cracks *that you know of*. If there are cracks you don't know about, you'll find out very suddenly and very dramatically. That's the "joy" of epoxy glue with carbon fiber bikes.
Rob’s company did a fantastic job of repairing a hole in my down tube from a stone last year. The quality of the finish on their work was very impressive. My only complaint is that I then had no excuse to go out and get myself a completely new bike lol 😮
This comment explain beautifully why I would never have. Carbon frame. A hole from a stone would never happen on a metal frame.
@@idontwantacallsign Sure i myself dont like carbon, but is light, and also that is why there are plastic frame protections, so one can get a kit or 3 kits, and install them on multiple places, where rocks can hot or something else, and be fine.. Some ppl have carbon bikes from 20 years, and they still ride them fine... Ofc titanium frame is on a whole other level, it is indestructible, but is more heavy too..
Rob,s experience is second to non,some other channels are busy trying to belittle other peoples work,and experience, one in particular, but people will see through the comments language and snipes,keep doing what you are doing Jourdain.....My old Trifox has featured a lot recently and done you proud!
Great video! It’s comforting to be reassured that sticking with steel was the correct choice😅 What would be amazing to see is a sliced Festka!
I own the Cervelo R3 and it is the smoothest and fastest bike I’ve ever owned!! Well worth the investment and long lasting as well
I have one too. Bought in 2008 and still going strong - with a lifetime warranty. Handles like a dog compared to my newer bike (2017 Colnago), but great in all other ways.
Do you not think it's an end user problem (fragile bike frames) as most bikes are designed for 20yr old 50kg athlete's and not some 90kg + middle aged out of shape bloke who can afford these 10-18k bikes. They were never designed for their use in the first place . 🤔
That’s plain wrong
They know they’re customers
@@harrie205 yup!
I'd say that "monocoque" is/was used to distinguish these modern "full carbon" frames (that only use metal for threaded inserts) from early ones like the Giant Cadex series that only used straight tubes and aluminium for the joints/vital points (bottom bracket, head tube, seatpost clamp, rear brake mount and the whole fork was still aluminium).
Similar to very old steel frames that had joints with sleeve sockets and then were soldered instead of directly welding the parts together.
I was lucky enough to buy a Specialized S Works and the ride is amazing. Ive had a number of carbon road bikes, but the high end carbon is something different.
Hello..... So after all this advice, which Chinese frame brand should I choose?
I would say that the video didn't really address the difference between good and bad carbon frames. It lightly addressed the difference in layup techniques but really the true difference between good and bad frames is the quality control. A "good" frame may have high modulus carbon and bits and pieces of twill around the joints but be a complete lemon of a frame and/or design. Unless the carbon is fully impregnated and it is properly compressed the frame is always at risk of failure. Similarly if the frame doesn't have good tolerances on the bearing mounting faces and on the dropouts then it is going to kill bearings and by killing bearings the rider is having to put down more watts for the same output.
There's good design, good assembly and good quality control. This video really only touched on the design portion. The thin wall sections allow extra carbon to be put on the areas where extra strength is needed due to it being a high stress area and/or it is an area where the assembly process is lacking. Grabbing 50g of carbon from the top tube and putting it around the bottom bracket to compensate for bad layup or lack of compaction doesn't necessarily make a frame "good".
Even the design assessment is very limited. You can see the last layer, but hardly the layup
Strength of the frame is very important especially for MTB. For me strength would be the top priority, even if it means gaining some weight, awkwardness, or extra $$
RIP Ray Liotta
I really appreciate the weekly Sunday morning posts. 👍
Glad you like them!
I took the plunge just over a year ago and after doing online research of different brands bought a frame from ELVES and I love it.
I later found out that ELVES have nearly 20yrs experience in making carbon frames and a lot of that time doing R&D for a few western brands and in doing so gaining valuable knowledge before starting to develop their own frames.
They're surely not the only Chinese frame manufacturer in the same situation.
I feel that if you do careful research and due diligence you can get yourself a quality frame that should be robust, well designed with a wealth of knowledge behind it and not have to pay the earth for the privilege.
I thought of doing that too, but went with another aluminium bike... Heavy as hell, compared to what the carbon people have, but that just means I need to lose weight.
@@phoffen3829 just a coffee at the cafe stop and deny yourself the cake
I did the same. Got me a Evo with the wheelset and handelbars, put a 105 DI2 on it. Rides like a dream, at half the cost of an "brand" bike + i got too choose my colors.
@@66mikkim with Elves is like getting a bespoke build, amazing bikes. I built mine up with hydraulic 105 and it feels like a Ferrari to ride for Ford prices
Been through a few bikes since 1980's. Currently hold 1 road, 1 gravel from Specialized and a road Yoeleo - all carbon. Yoeleo w/Ultegra Di2 12 sp. and deep carbon wheels was ~½ price of the last Specialized. No discernable difference to me. All three are great rides. YMMV.
How about the tolerances of the bottom brackets or the headsets?
Fascinating to see how thin the walls are. My only carbon bike is a GT Grade carbon. The seat stays are solid fibre glass however the frame is apparently sub 1 kilo. I always worry is often run Ortlieb quick release rack. This attachs to an alloy seat post and alloy screw holes next to the through hub axles, designed for mudguards and possibly racks! Interested in informed comments!
The Canyon and other high end bikes are very purpose built and they aren't great outside of that envelope. I treat my Canyon very gently outside of that envelope but it rides great.
Your canyon is made in china
Got lost in all of words. Kept waiting for a conclusive answer or point but the sentence never ended.
Nice to see! Well explained and although i don't feel the need for carbon, i now apprieciate the workmanship/engineering.
i dont have a carbon frame and still watched for some knowledge. i almost have one, until i realized i ride the bus back home after a very long ride. so i picked up an alu and cf fork. i dont want the bus to hit a big bump and the bike hits a post underneath. i dont have issues with bumps while riding because i know it will manage that, but if it was transported under a bus and it hit a funny angle then you never know with a cf frame. so i ended up with the alloy+cf combo
Great video! Would love to know if Rob has had experience with older Colnagos? Or are they pretty robust and rarely end up in his shop.
if you want a dirt cheap carbon bike that can take you around neighbour hood or to work/school, the chinese bike is the way to go though..I see chinese people ride 100km+ on those trifox bike with no issue, its just depends what you really want to do with the bike.
Excellent insight. I also find my R11 very comfy like you do Jordan. Cheers....Steve
Good to hear!
Like fine wines, my riding is such that I really can't the difference between the good stuff and all the cheapest stuff. I've got two cheap Chinese carbon frames, and honestly have had more quality issues with the $1400 name brand frame. My carbon MTB frame has had a rough life as a bikepacking bike, and other than a cable port issue, it has been brilliant. My carbon GT30 gravel bike had some poorly masked paint edges, but has been trouble free. My Salsa aluminum frame showed up with multiple sheared off bolts, clear coat scuffing, and a poorly aligned cargo rack despite its $1400 price tag and name brand. While I hold out no hope for warranty service long term, at $500-600 per frame I don't really care too much if the frame dies some day.
Most of us will notice good tire choice and proper pressure more than a cheap vs. name brand frame.
China are building for the mainstream market, not hill climb specialists that represent 0.01% of the market. You get what you pay for. Only a handful of brands are layup specialists working their own layup schedule. No point building out of t800 and high mod uni if your targeting a mid range do it all bike.
Does the Superior bike brand, such as the Superior XP 929 Lightweight Carbon Frame Hardtail, have good carbon fiber bike frames? thanks for sharing your expertise
It would be interesting to see more carbon mtb frame analyses and comparisons. My only experience is mtb, and I've always wondered why, with enduro and dh bikes, they don't just use more carbon and make it generally more robust given that weight is not big deal in gravity events and folks often crash and smash rocks into their frame. People crack carbon enduro frames all the time. I have a short travel Devinci that has a aluminum rear triangle, which seems pretty smart. My hardtail is a Framed Bobtrack (RIP Framed) surely made in the east and definitely overbuilt. It is still a very light frame. I know that it is overbuilt because I have smashed the frame with large, sharp rocks a number of times, with significant damage. If the tubes had been super thin, it would be in the garbage. I was shocked at how thick the chain stays around the bb are after throwing a large rock into them. I just threw some 2 part epoxy on there and it was good to go! Many miles later, many of which were at enduro team practice under my hard riding son (the one who snapped the rear triangle on his Polygon twice), doing things it was in no way intended for, it is solid. My other related experience with "cheap" carbon is with DIY carbon brand XC wheels and Amazon handlebars. Both have taken years of abuse and are fine. Can't say enough good things about those wheels, very light, insanely stiff, extremely well built, and have held up better than bontrager carbon wheels.
i'm pretty sure most CF mtb frames are wildly overbuilt. santa cruz has given lifetime warranty since the beginning for their CF frames. and i have never seen one crack, at least not by riding. crashing is a different story but i wouldn't want my bike to be built to handle a toptube landing on a rock. that bike would be so stiff my teeth would fall out.
Excellent presentation. Thank you
I was considering a C68 until I heard "because a carbon bicycle that's bonded with glue together is kind of defeats the object of the exercise"
Thanks Rob
This is behind the times.. Specialized and other major brands which once were made in Taiwan, are being contracted out to mainland China. From 2014 thru 2019 I raced chinese carbon mtbs exclusively, and won more than my share of races, riding more than 350 kilometers every week, and had zero issues on my frames. If yu travel andLIVE in an asian country, like I have, and race against MANY different Chinese carbon brands, you know they al function about the same. I never heard of any failures in stress fractures from the many many riders who race them throughout Thailand as I have.
Does he have any thoughts on the longevity of the unique Specialized Sirrus X 5.0/6.0 frame?
Chinese making every type of quality bike, lots of quality big brand European bike are manufactured in china with quality inspection. Chinese bike are cheap and we can afford them . And we like this 👍
Bycicles types in which weight influences performance will be on the thin side. Don't use the bikes for other purposes and expected them to handle it.
Do racer's mtb given special treatment? Like better or different carbon layout?
One thing you've missed is pretty telling, most of the bike frames from "major manufacturers" are literally the exact same bike built in the same factory to a different standard. Just because you buy a bike from a western country doesn't mean it actually is made there (unless you're buying a Look or Time frame, there might be others as well) many are made in China to a western specification.
13:00. Monocoque does bot mean one piece
It means that the skin is stressed and not supported by internal structure
how do the high end of asian frames like winspace compare?
Winspace is a cheaper chinese frame with marketing money thrown at influencers. At least they're honest about it, saying they use T800. Quite a few OEM selling frames for 500-600-700 have started using T1000 and T1100, even. Mixed in w T800, no doubt, but you're now getting 900g frames in 54. Winspace isn't there, but you pay for their marketing budget. It's China going full circle.
@@gudruneso what is the best quality chinese carbon frames brand?
@@Pablo_Coach there's no such thing. Just like there isn't a "best" western bike brand.
@@gudrune Time frames
@@Pablo_Coach sure. You have all the answers, good for you. And let's not talk about how many people even consider buying Time frames. Or their absence from grand tour circuits, because it's not true at all that people want to ride what the pros ride. I'll stop there.
Great info, thanks for posting
And i ride custom made Canyon Exceed CF SL 8.0, that all pared except the frame and fork was replaced.. And the frame is fine from 2 years so far, but i do plan to install multiple bike frame protector kits on it..
Happily riding my 10 year old Chinese carbon bike 😊
Don't lump all chinese framesets and wheels into the same camp. There are huge variances in quality. Also all western frames are made in china.
Built and ridden many chinese brands. Trifox is the worse quality and consistency. Winspace has been the best so far.
is a C4 High Modulus Carbon a good frame
All good but the comments on glue. There are automotive and aerospace epoxy glues that are bomb proof.
Any names of these good Chinese frame manufacturers? Seems like the main downside is extra weight, and I can live with that
The most important thing with carbon is confidence in the manufacturing. Finished you can’t see much(even if you cut the frame open like this)
So what you get with a non Chinese manufacturer ist that they have a name to lose so they invest more into quality
You talk about western and Chinese frames I was under the impression 99% of bike frames are made in China. Which frames are made that are not made in China.
To be exact alot of bicycles are not made in China, but most bikes are made in Asia, small amount are made outside Asia
@@Williamchan87 Taiwan is the main bike producer. And some people think that Taiwan is China. 🤫
@@BmanNL1 still think most frames - including Taiwanese - are made in Mainland China regardless.
could you please somehow split the video , impossible to find where review split from one frame to another. I started to watch this video because in was Specilized frame on the preview but finally i didn’t find it :(
Hey! I have specific videos on specific frames on my channel 👍🏽
@@JourdainColeman btw I'm absolutelly happy with specialized bike, It most comfortable bike I ever have :D
Would love to see a Time frame cut up
I think - if people really care about quality - they should probably go for Look, Time or Colnago C series.
Just to save time, energy and money.. why not just buy a GIANT bikes. They are by far the best value carbon bikes among all bike brands.
These '800 UKP frames', how much are you in for once HMRC and the VAT folks add their ransom ?
Probably 50 quid import duty
Although if it's in gbp, that usually includes import duty and vat so most likely 800 quid.
For carbon frame, carbon bars and a custom paint job I paid a little over £900 delivered and did NOT have to pay any import tax
This hunt for the last 150-200g off the frame weight is ridiculous, total irrelevant to performance and the result is more fragile bikes. Giant has cut 75 grams of weight off of the top-spec 2024 TCR Advanced SL frame but still can't make the saddle point straight forward.
yep
Thanks for sharing.
Which western components...? Shimano?
carbon man is South African 🇿🇦 100%
Great knowledge shown here! I quit using carbon bikes years ago and never regretted it in any way.
I think the only carbon fiber bike I would buy is a Time.
So, never buy a used carbon frame from western brands then if their main selling point is warranty and aftersales coverage?
I hate to brake it to everyone but carbon frames, wheels are mostly all made in the same factories in Xiamen.
Sure are but there's different levels of expertise and spending from factory to factory
Fascinating video, thanks
Definitely I don´t like carbon fibre. I like more the precision of CNC parts and titanium hand made frames or steel ... or even Aluminium ones, RM used to built quite nice frames like Elements, ETSX etc with nice finish.
I am happy that I bought an aluminium instead of a carbon gravel bike recently 😂 Makes me feel more confident despite of the additional fiew extra grams
Interesting he's saying bigger brands your paying for their so called technology but they would be getting feed back from the Chinese factories on how to build it cheaper and lighter so who's actually coming up with the technology also bigger brands are factoring warranty claims so they can build the bikes lighter nowhere in the video does he say the Chinese frames will fail first?? He still dose not give you a lot of confidence in the bigger brands .
Yeah ... Cam Nicholls's channel does nothing else than to show us how bad chinese frames are and promote high end frames. It's his hobby maybe. GCN ... that's an advertising channel I don't even watch that anymore. Plenty of ads on TV. Great job man. Apreciate the channel. If I may say - the difference is the price. Nothing else.
all carbon frames are bad..you should go for full Titanium, last longer, looks better, also very light, doesn't rust, and is more safe
I have seen a lot of terrible injuries of people that went into the woods en their carbon bike frame broke down..it gives very sharp splinters causing very bad injuries....
Build a bike frame that isa little heavier. The placment of carbon and the quality of the build doesn't matter as much. They can also use lower strength, lower priced carbon. The frame maybe a little bit heavier, but it's durable enough and a good riding bike for most of us.
I have built a velobuild endurance bike. Very nice bike, light enough, everything fit and a very responsive and comfortable bike.
Long story short, just because it’s cooked in the same kitchen, doesn’t mean it’s made with the same recipe.
The people who work on it, what ingredients and the amount of each ingredients they use may vary.
And as whether it’s worth it or not, it really depends as a quid for me may not be a quid to you.
Is it more sinister to sell an expensive but fragile bike that breaks a lot or sell a less expensive and robust bike that lasts for years?
I don't have enough money to buy expensive carbon bike .What do you think about twitter bike frames
Thanks for the video. Many years ago I did own a carbon Look 585 Tube & Lug style carbon bike. It was nice. But ever since carbon went to this style of carbon monocoque frame it just seems like total crap. All this so called "tuning" by laying a couple more patches of scrap carbon fiber in places just shows how cheap these frames are period. My frames will continue to be some form of metal (alum, steel ,titanium) from here on in
High-end carbon bikes are sold at outrageous prices because they are sold with the same economical logic as any luxury goods (some bike brands are even owned by luxury goods corporations...).
The main part of the price being advertising on which bikes brands are spending millions, way more than on engineering.
Ohh compared thin round tube of Canyon to AERO Trifox frame.... yeah they are different purpose built . May be aero flat framing does not need to be thin and that's why and not because "they don't know what they are doing" lol.
Justification for titanium.
85 percent of cyclists dont need carbon. Hence: bang for the buck nowadays is a big factor ( if u really want carbon) as long as safety is good enough.
Very good. Thanks. But the presentation could be improved by showing more bike, less moving back and forth on the bike, and less face because we don’t need to see his face. Know what I mean.
yep!! just show the GD FRAMES!!! and hold still!!!
Can confirm Canyon frames are fragile. Their warranty is not good and they no longer honor the crash replacement program.
This is probably the reason so many people are repairing instead of replacing. Also, the reason I ended up here. Had to find a third party repair for a frame they agreed was covered by the warranty but because they didn't have any in stock of the same model they only offered me 20% discount on a full price new bike. Extremely disappointed.
canyon was lame
they still have a crassh replacement program
You are looking at the wrong part of the bike if you're trying to figure why some are so expensive. No need to spend time cutting the frames up. Just look st the stickers on the outside and save yourself a lot of time and energy
This "good" vs "bad" explanation is extremely vague, but im glad i dont own a canyon. Ill also say there are shocking videos of cannondale frame construction too else where on youtube (mapdec).
making wall thickness beefier on carbon bikes is the best move any brand can make. imagine a specialized sl8 frame 3xs heavier because the wallthickness is 3xs. that bike would be bullet proof and nice and stiff.
@4:42 is a very arrogant comment. The tubes are uniformly thick simply using lower strength carbon hens more material. It is built to a price point and from a production level it delivers. As far as "engineering" goes, none of (near to none) the so-called Western brand has invested in manufacturing assets not to mention processing technology. Look at the Semiconductor industry; major companies can "design" 3nm chips but it is heavily rely on TSMC to make that production possible. The cycling industry is full of marketing BS, and that is what changed Giant from a manufacturing powerhouse into running its own brand-much much higher profit margin.
agree on the first part, but not on the second. The knowledge of engineering the layup doesn't require you to also develop the production. It is a partnership and dependence can be a good thing and not everything has to end in a trade war. A small budget team with skilled engineers can design an outstanding bike, but they would have zero chance producing.
Are carbon frames bike frames recycled?
not as bikes, it can be but under airtight facilities, after epoxy resin cures hardens it becomes more hazardous, as chunks no, but as burned fumes or lint particles will damage lungs!!!problem is length, some carbon you want a long layup say 15 inches downtube 1 piece....well recycled fragments of 1/4 inch wont do that, it will become brittle like glass
Why don't you respond to my emails??? We sent you the bike for test but you didn't reply
bravooooo
They ALL chinese frames
7:32 to 8:33 is all you ever need to know.
What about winspace frames?
all the carbon frames are built in china..all your are paying for is the brand name ...full stop
Western bike brands, here look at this Giant... Company based in Taiwan... This company started as an OEM very similar to the other Chinese Based brands that make the Pinarello also shown. 10 years ago the argument is the carbon frame from western companies would last longer now canyon is Built cheaply for purpose. Feels like he is grasping for differences from bikes built in the same factory. Right now the quality control is the difference and marketing has us believing that the bigger name bike companies do that better. Maybe not so in the future
watching this video more and more made me want to buy a steel or titanium bike frame.
Seeing how much these bikes look like they're made of plastic is really off-putting.
Also I think it's disgusting to shit on chinese bikes because they're designed to last, and praise canyon because their bikes are so fragile but they have a great customer return policy for when your frame brakes or becomes compromised. How do you figure this out before you eat pavement sandwich? Who wants to deal with having your bike frame break and then deal with returning and rebuilding it?
I cry bullshit! Here's the deal...most carbon frames are made in GuanJo China sometimes in the same plant as Specialized and Merida. These bikes have the same group sets, sometimes the same wheels and tires.and so forth. It's the markup when they get to Europe or North America where the bullshit starts. These Chinese get paid the same amount to make a Specialized frame set as they do to make a Sava or Twitter frame set. So, they figure let's sell these on our own and make some extra money. This analysis is a lot of smoke and mirrors. I built a plane with some of the components being carbon fiber. It's not rocket science. Just don't use them for gravel or mountain bikes, none of them are suitable.
Basically, the high-end brands just cost more because of R &D.
FYI: a bike that costs $5,000 in the US can easily reach $7,500 or $8,000 (if you can even get it) in Latin America, where an average person's income is just a fraction of what people earn in the first world countries. And all that coverage you talk about, warranty and spare parts? It's like rolling dices. You may be lucky and get support from a local dealer, but in most cases is the Wild West and you're on your own. So I think most of these videos completely miss the point regarding "cheap" Chinese products. If your'e in Europe or the USA, of course it makes sense to go with the safer bet. But the world is now global in case you didn't notice, and most of your concerns are really minor if you can get something that works well enough for just a fraction of what it would cost to get the real deal. It's not like you have a choice really, it's more like that's the only thing that many people will ever be able to afford.
What is chain suck?
It's a term used when the chain comes off the chainrings or cassette and gets wedged against the frame. It can cause some serious damage to either the chainstay or seat stay. And that sucks
@charlesmansplaining That isn't what chain suck is. The other reply had it correct
@@DaveCM some people are not worth arguing with... 😉
Interesting video. But kinda sad they take a Trifox frame and throw all the Chinese frames there won't comparing it to a high end carbon frame. It's skewed, it's wrong. It's like you take the cheapest American car and you compare it to the highest Mercedes. Doesn't make sense. Compare what's comparable. I find it borderline racist the generalization that transpires. Take a Winspace that's at least higher quality if you want to make a fair comparison.
The argument about distance is sketchy too. Chinese brands have warehouse in Europe / NA.
My friend explained to how Canyon did not honour the warranty when his chain stay failed. I will never buy a Canyon
yours is a "my bro told me" story. I myself had a canyon chainstay fail and 8 days later the replacement arrived. your friend didn't tell you all the details or was lying
I got a Canyon bike, had an issue with a part, got immediately a package from the company + they paid a bike store around the corner to install everything. Can't complain from my side.
@@Xarx42 I am sure they honour their warranty most of the time. But my point is it should be all of the time. And they clearly don't do it all the time. But I am glad it worked out for you. I would just not take the gamble that I might be one of the unlucky ones that get a crappy service
china bad 😂 😂