Based on the premise of "ranking in terms of carry potential", exe and jester would be S+ because for the most part, they rely on just themselves for their win
Executioner and jester are actually dependant on variables U need to eighter somehow try to earn a towns trust before ur attacked by maf, ur target is killed or somehow get certain conditions that make pushing ezier or u have to hope maf helps u problem is if mafia is good they are gonna push and make ur own job harder If ur jest the last lines opposite is true, but issue is when u become sus jailor is gonna get ti on ur booty and u have to try to not look sus and look sus at the same time if u get what I'm sayin
Worst thing is if evils all give up in first few days or town is really, really efficient and lucky you can be completely missed while town hangs other evil every day. You sometimes have to hope to be noticed by town enough to be lynched, but not enough to be shot/exed which against actual good town is a coin flip, maybe they hang the found GF and then exe you for whatever sus behavior you tried to get town to lynch you. It's definitely better than mafia or NK since even if evils do throw you still have a win con, but I'd rather still be town in most games when I care for elo.
I personally would have put GF in low A, but B is totally fair. think we’ve all seen a GF solo the entire game before, but that could just be skill and not the role.
I remember 2 games i had as jester 1.around the beginning i confided with a random town to help get me killed later, a bunch of dead bodies later there are 3 people left me, a random towny, and a sk or mafia this was a long time ago. The towny accused me, and the killer jumped on that claim. They both voted guilty. The killer killed the last town i haunted the killer i was the only winner. 2. So the previous game i annoyed someone by constantly role-blocking them as consort. They showed up in the next game i played and i didnt change my name so they wanted revenge. The twist was i became jester so he got everyone to vote me. I got hanged i killed him the same night. Those are my best jester games.
We're on the same page for most of this. I feel like you undervalue Blackmailer though. Some of my best mafia games have been due to having a Blackmailer on the team. Hell, my favorite mafia setup excluding anything with consort is Blackmailer + Ambusher. Blackmailer kinda just gets you a lot of information and it tells you who TP is on and who LO is on and who jailor is and it essentially gives you all the information you need to properly choose your kills and win the game. You can also frame with blackmailer by having someone who whispered be killed. This appears to make the recipient of the whispers suspicious. You ALSO get to straight-up say no to someone's ability to speak. In a game where townies need to win by discussing who the evils are, this role seems to me like it's on par with Forger, Consigliere, and Janitor. I know I'm probably biased and that you're better than me but I feel like Blackmailer is undervalued. IMO, low A or high B. Great video. :D
I have only seen one good disguiser play so far. The disguiser disguised the Mafioso as one of the vigilante. Two lookouts saw the "vigi" visit the maf and they got lynched. Second vigil shot one of the lookouts. That play alone singlehandedly won mafia the game. It was the most confusing game I've played yet. No one could figure out what happened. The chaos worked perfectly for mafia. Disguiser is a role that doesn't work often I think, but if it works, it works incredibly well. People don't suspect the possibility of disguisers. It's a very under the radar role.
I think Retri deserves a bit higher. Though it is very situational it absolutely can turn a game around in the right circumstances. Other than that I think this is a really accurate list
The thing about ret is that its a comeback role so ofc its not gonna be consistent. This format is hard for tos roles, as some rely on whats already in the table... like med is easily s tier in a jani + ambusher game for example, but in a consig + consort game med is definitely c tier
I am typing this after the ret remake, however your logic is not sound. The ret brings someone else back, and that person has the opportunity to change the game again, not necessarily the ret. Also, consistency is a problem. Sure you can get a huge swing with an awesome ret target that wins you the game. At the same time, you can get the perfect frame off that essentially wins you the game - problem is, it doesn't happen often enough. Whenever you type 'in the right circumstances' you need to start wondering whether you are committing any combination of (Base rate fallacy - making a probability judgment based on conditional probabilities), (Inconsistent comparison - different methods of comparison are used), (Begging the question (petitio principii) - using the conclusion of the argument in support of itself)... There are others, but although your statement is short, it is incredibly flawed.
Not only is it great you made this tier list, but the fact i get to listen to osrs music in the background while listening to your list makes it 5x better
Been looking for one of these for a while, thank you for making this! How about how good a role would be as TT (even if it can’t be TT) next? I don’t know, could be fun.
Really enjoy the video and your arguments, you went in-depth with each justification and possible scenarios that each roles are good and bad with, which could be good knowledge for people who wants to get better at understanding and playing them. I especially agree with your emphasis on how some roles need to rely on others to win and that is often a deciding factor knowing how diverse the skill level and playstyles the playerbase have. With that being said I believe many people can still take advantage of other players not yet understanding how Disguiser work to cause mislynch at the moment so it's not completely bad to play as. I'd rank Blackmailer a bit higher than Consig (though there's probably a preference involved here), because a lot of roles can be known via VFR these days that the information you found don't contribute as much and you just kinda help Spy eliminate the mafs when you visit. Blackmailer however can help maf learn more specific info reading whispers and the blackmailing ability is adaptable depending on the situation (confirmed TIs, active town, spy presence, you can also fake blackmailing). I like having the options. I would argue a bit for Medium as well because if it's not a Jani game (and we often know this by D2) it's easily confirmed by Invest. It's a scum role to claim as but unlike Sheriff people don't claim it that much anymore, Consort can't do flummery to Medium and it hard counters Ambusher, Forger and Janitor which is a bunch of high-tier mafias right there. Still doesn't mean it should go any higher than B-tier but it deserves some recognition I think.
I agree with most of the placements here although I'd personally move Medium to B teir and Spy up S+. Even though Spy doesn't have killing power the fact that it can single handily change how the random mafia play, and how it's relatively easy to confirm a real spy over a fake spy due to his bug ability makes this role the second most powerful. In a game like tos information is the most powerful ability of all.
Thank you so much man, just got into the game and this totally helps!!!! In the past couple weeks I’ve seen so many of your videos and there really shaping me into a good player. Definitely make more videos like this. Your the best!!
I disguised my mafioso as the spy, lookout went to our target and saw the "spy" kill the townie, spy gets hanged and lookout ends up loosing credibility and exed by the jailor, my best disg game, but it's pure luck XD
I always thought ambusher was trash because he gets caught the most out of any other role. Thanks for explaining why he is actually OP! I would've put Lookout as top of S tier. Basically an autoconfirm. It also confirms TP when Jailor is out and they can't save anyone because they are stuck on jailor. The reason I think this is better than Transporter is because I've never seen a game that Lookout has ruined. I would've put Godfather in S+ tier. I play mostly ranked practice and Coven all any. It hurts to play mafia without a Godfather. Godfather shows as "Seems innocent" to sheriff and he is immune to Vigilante. I've pulled off more plays as Godfather because of these than any other mafia role. You can fake claim spy and get confirmed by Sheriff. You can claim TK and a tk cc who is forced to attack you, wastes their night, and there is a chance that they will get lynched for claiming you were immune (while you say you were never attacked). If an investigator checks you, you can claim you "must've been doused". It's unlikely you will die to Vet/BG because most of the time you aren't the one who kills. Mafia also tends to defend you the most. It's hard to argue that any other mafia role is as good as Godfather.
Lookout belongs in the S+ tier, possibly even above Jailor. It is arguably the most powerful role in the entire game. With one in the round you can instantly confirm 3+ Townies by Day 2 and all but eliminate claimspace for evils. It's incredibly powerful, rivaled only by the original incarnations of the Spy, Mayor and Retributionist, and the aforementioned Jailor
but with every counter comes another counter. you just have to pretty much play smarter when you notice a spy is in the game. it's not that it's "broken", it's just a good counter to certain mafia roles due to how it's role works. You can use certain gimmicks to "confirm" yourself as a townie if spy comes out early, you just have to find a way to make it believable ofc.
@@blazeiken2 well the definition of broken is something that changes the whole game So you could say spy is broken as iyt changes the whole dynamic of the game simply by existing I think what you mean is its not op
New disguiser has so many mechanics, both from learning how it interacts with spy (which is weird) and somehow hides mafia, it's really weird but it can start to help, like framing a townie by disguising themselves, so that no mafia get visited but a townie is visited, and the townie seems to be maf when disg is revealed.
To me, Disguiser is essential in a spy game and useful in a LO game. If you disguise your mafioso to ie. a medium, kill a LO target, LO sees your possible RM and the medium. But because medium cannot visit, town is either going to lynch the medium or the LO for having "fake" results. Or even both. Very useful for mislynches.
"Maf could just say it's a exe push" pipe even if there is a confirmed exe spot some towns will still be gullible to believe people who find some one sus night 1
I mostly agree with this, honestly. But I would appreciate one for all the roles (non-coven/coven). Possibly for other role lists specifically too. For example, a tier list for lovers, etc. Mainly because it really just depends on how the gamemode is supposed to be played. For example, if you're escort in all any, you're pretty much screwed. But if you're veteran in all any, you're going to have a VERY fun time. Things like that. It's a pretty good concept, all around. P.S. I would like to ask (no reply needed) that you do custom role lists; role lists made by the community. That is, if you think they're a good role list. For example, the custom role list of the basic townie setup, but with 2 Mafia, 2 coven, and a nk and ne. I think that'd be a good idea. But please do make this into a series. It's really interesting and helpful.
Maybe 2 good buffs for framer would be to also alter the investigator results and maybe not show up on the mafia visits? Hypno is sorta hard cause the really can't be altered that much without being busted. Also love the runescape music!!
I transed townies who were targeted twice by maf in a row saved them and the new targets were cleaned 1 of those new targets was the mafioso I was killed for being "hypno" Hypnos only use really is to make all ts claims sus
The reason I agree with Pipe here is that the medium's power is entirely dependent on whether people stick around after they die and how helpful the people in dead chat are. In most of my medium games, the dead chat is underwhelming and useless.
@@sweetcornwhiskey Ranked matches is better than any other matches. Community in ranked is considered to be good but there is still a chance for some idiots decided to throw the game.
I think the hypnotist is a great role when there is no spy,cause all you need to do is claim tp and “transport someone” or claim escort and “rb someone”. And framer can fake doc when no spy then frame someone and the sheriff/invest will say he is suspicious and boom,free. Although I can understand how crappy those roles are when there is a spy.
heres my list: ambusher: S bg: A doc: A) in coven its above bg and maybe even S because it can counter poisoner sometimes for the entire game. forger: A consig: high B escort: B) in coven A, like one time I was a jugg and got rbed basically all game. godfather: high B bmer: lower B framer: C or D (i'd chose d if no conf sheriff slot) consort: high A vigilante: high S to low S + hypno: C below framer transporter: A maybe S in the right hands its high S invest: A or B if there was one in the middle i'd put it there jailor: S + for obvious reason janitor A LO: A or B it DID get nerfed which can be a pain and can give inaccurate info, though I cant remember a time when that happened. mafioso: C just worse version of Godfather. disg: C name one time you've seen it do anything mayor: S or S + though, mayor can lose the game basically whoever they vote gets voted (when town maj) medium: probably B or C can be nerf janitor or in coven nerf medusa and get more info so maybe A but most of the time unless its an invest that info isnt useful. retri: in CAA its an F but in ranked probably a C or an B if theres bg or vigi sheriff: low B to C, theres a decent chance they vote you because exe or framer. spy: probably an S though at the bottom it can counter almost all RM though I can see an A. vet: B if theres a janitor it can double kill maf also I agree with your points, and witch: this is a hard one to grade i'd put it in high A if jailor doesnt reveal and if they do S definitely. big P if you're reading this tell me what you agree with, also im an s + + + with ALL of these. Also if you want I can make my own coven tier list in the comments.
This was really nice to have on while I did homework, another one would be awesome! Also, I notice sometimes you take your mouse off screen, copy something like invest results and paste it, what reference do you use?
Should’ve graded the roles on how easy it is to win as them. That way you could include neutral roles in the tier list. A role like jailor in the role list immediately affects town’s ability to win where a medium probably does little to help town win. Obviously it depends if something like a janitor is also in the role list, but generally a medium isn’t as valuable as a transporter.
Honestly i was so surprised when you said that hypno is trash. Imo its one of the most powerful mafoa roles (Not as powerful as ambusher, but definitely more powerful then all the mi's) you can essentially confirm your entire team (even with spy in game in most cases) and you are so good at creating chaos. It just needs mafia that cooperate.
Yeah I had my mafioso get jailed so I hypnotized someone and made them think that they were attacked and also claimed doc and basically confirmed me and saved my mafioso
I think Medium should deserve more love. It can counter ambusher, janitor and forger, and from my experience, even if I don't claim d1, I've confirmed myself quite a lot of times by just spam posting dead chat. A downside I do see is that it heavily relies on town not leaving after they die.
The only time I hate ambusher (when playing it) is when there’s a medium. The only hope you’ll have is if the Maf/ GF kills the med or have to smooth talk your way out of it, sounds like a 50/50 and it probably is for most, my luck is just terrible
Pipe i think you shouldnt forget that even though witch is a very useful role to mafia and evils,they lose when they die unlike a consort for example consort can still win when they die but witch has to be alive in order to win,yes witch can do a lot of stuff but they need to stay alive,and i think thats the reason that witch has significantly less win rate than any other mafia(according to a post i saw on reddit)
i played a game the other day where mafia got a townie lynched the day after killing TP because they disguised their mafioso and made it look like the townie visited the dead player, who had a lookout on them. it almost got the lookout lynched as well but luckily enough town knew they were confirmed from earlier and recognized it as a disguiser play.
Interesting video! Don't agree on the disg tho, it's kunde powerful too! Say framer and disg, framer frame someone, disg disguises framer, spy won't see who the framer visits, ti call them sus. We lynch the townies for the 1f1. Vig shoots accuser, who is actual sheriff. Sheriff dead. Town hangs the spy who didn't see the framers visit 😂 Disguisers movements arent seen unless they disg gf I think 🤔 he can disg the known tp as himself and lo will see disgs name instead of the tps name. Still trying to figure the role out but it's fun! Hypno is also kinda strong I think, if used correctly. Esp with forger in game to hide hypnos maf visits etc 😊 You get 10/10 bananas for this video! 😘 🌸
I love this kind of video, especially the parts were you stopped to explain how each role plays and/or should be played. As a fairly new player who is trying ranked for the first time stuff like that is super usfull. Did you think about doing some guide series on each role? Or some videos were you are explaining why you are making each move, how you find people sus etc.?
Even though Hypno is a terrible random mafia, his presence is CRUCIAL for the sake of balancing because it is the ONLY role in the game who can consistently claim Transporter. Back in the day, the 2 main concerns about ranked was Retri and Transporter being too powerful, so Retri got nerfed and Hypno got added to ranked in order to prevent Transporter from instantly getting confirmed. Hypno is there for balancing purposes, not because he is good
I’d personally put ambusher in A tier or lower, since every ranked game I’ve played that had an ambusher, they get found n1. Could just be me being low elo
I would actually say witch should be lower. It’s a great role, but the problem is it relies on the mafia being competent without being able to know them from the get go. If it’s hit by maf spies often out it, and the invest results of LO forger witch make it difficult as if you are found LO is hard to fake especially if the jail or is out.
Ehh I think if you’re ranking them on their effectiveness and over all impact to win games then I would put exe/jest in S tier given the wide variety of plays they could make to get the win. The win for exe/jest also relies on that player alone and any info against you brought in by town or mafia just helps you potentially achieve your goal of getting yourself hanged or killing your target. On the other hand, you could be a very good vigi and found by Maf/witch n1 and then sometimes the game is just out of your hands.
Had a game where our GF is blackmailed because of witch accidentally witched our bmer n1 and our gf is jailed but since our gf is bmed confirmed by spy and released from jailor we can hard confirming our gf as non-mafia and make him unsuspect.
I admit, I haven't played TOS with the new buffs and all that, but I have played A LOT of ToS. So here's my take. Information is power. And Lookout provides the most information in the game. It can basically confirm themselves pretty quickly and confirm several others. Spy is a close second. No the information won't matter if Mafia gains majority, but in the grand scheme of things Lookout does more for town than several other roles you put above it. I would put it in S tier. Like the TP's, who i think both belong in B tier. TP is an important role to have in the game, but they aren't really solving anything. They rely on everyone else to provide them information (which especially sucks when your teammates aren't that good). And it's hard to say whether Doctor or BG is better because it depends on the situation you're in, but I think Doctor is usually better. Sure BG can take out an evil, but they die along with them. It normally benefits town to still do so and can sometimes be game changing, but Doctor can save a townie and keep going to save more. Doctor being able to provide that protection for longer will keep evils off of your important roles for longer and imo is more reliable. Vigilante I do not think belongs in S tier or at least not above Lookout and Spy. It's a risky role. Especially with Witch around. If you're the perfect Vigilante and take out 3 evils yourself then yeah I guess it would be S tier, but that's not gonna happen that often. And Veteran should probably at least be B tier. It's an easy role to confirm and typically makes it far into the game to clutch out wins when needed. And if people aren't reading chat and are visiting you as townies, then that's just them being bad, not Veteran being bad. Everything else seems to have pretty solid placement. :)
@@PipeTron I mean like if somone gets killed and revived it's a confirm because their role is revealed and if ret claims his role before the resurection confirms it
I agree with where you put Investigator. I don't think you should've put blackmailer in the same tier as investigator. You can read whispers, but you won't get any useful information if you blackmail, because town will immediately know that you did. Even in games where there is no spy, you confirm living townies and expose that one of the random mafias in Blackmailer. It's important that you keep random mafias a secret so in no spy games you can accuse Investigators of being consig or escorts of being consort etc. I would argue he is only slightly better than hypnotist because he can read whispers.
I would love to buff or nerf individual roles without making the faction generally more or less powerful. I do not think mafioso should be a role but instead that gf designates a mafia as acting mafioso for the night. But i also think that would make mafia too powerful. Also, spy just needs to be rid of that passive ability. Buff bug so that it gives the player's results from that night or something. Im fine with its strength but it does make the game less fun for other roles or invalidates them. There is no good options or plays with hypno that arent to blend in with town. Even then, they are not very good at it. Maybe medium should just learn the roles and nights results of dead town automatically instead of needing the dead to tell them. That would make it decent. Not any better if dead played like they should, but it skips the middle man. I do think disguisers do not play as they should. I think they should disguise random town constantly as it can make good will inconsistencies, and will inconsistencies are more reliable lynches than what the framer does. And it does 2 town members at a time. If a sheriff checks a mafia, they probably are just going to be seen as exe anyways.
One of the things i love the most as witch is to basically use mafia from the outside. Usually you basically consig a couple townies and by n3 you figured out who evils are, mafia goes for TI n1 n2 so if you found TP you witch maf/gf into them. I don't like perma witching jailor as theres a chance of them executing town, tho if there's a successful 1 for 1 in favor of mafia, ez witch jailor. There's nothing better than witching jailor into executing town.
In my opinion, being Medium is one of my favorites, if not in my top personal favorite, roles. I absolutely adore the idea of speaking to the dead chat - despite the times there would be no information whatsoever. Talking to dead chat is such a unique concept for me because it gives a reason as to why players can still participate despite being killed off. It is my personal favorite role and probably will be for a long while. However - when I recently saw this game around the summer of my country, I never really understood why it is all it could do. It's just very disappointing to me because it takes such a unique idea but it never really goes further. I admit it is such a weak role, powerful if used correctly but I doubt a high possibility, that if I were to play a game of Town of Salem, I would have mixed emotions all throughout the game. And I noticed people don't really take the role seriously, which is understandable but kind of saddening for me, to be honest. However, I do agree with your statements. Perhaps liking Medium is my choice of liking weaker, more strategic, and non-killing roles that do not give me too much pressure. But it is my opinion and I agree with you. :D Also, I really like that Medium skin. I don't know why but I just really like it.
14:01: Transporter also has the uno reverse card. 17:36: I mean, why bother with spy when it’s so obvious that 2 mafia visited the dead target if u see the dead target as cleaned?
respect the list a lot! i'd argue that ret should be at bottom of B teir tho based on my experiences. i once played a game as ret where the bg and doc both died night one. i put bg on the jailor and killed 2 evils night 1. another game i mained the escort and roleblocked maf from killing 4 nights in a row. but definitely agree that the strength of the ret depends on dead town! :D
I think Medium is the only role I'm in disagreement with. Contrary to what many people say, it's pretty easy to confirm yourself in a way thats pretty hard to fake. You have the ability to copy paste text from death chat. All this text combined is often more than what can fit in your will and you can copy paste it faster than you'd be able to from external programs. And death chat is where all the info goes that Mafia didn't want to come out. Appart from the info the dead get from when they were alive, now that they are dead, they are no longer distracted with keeping their will up to date and worrying about their own life. They are often able to more accurately scum read and have more time on their hands to cross reference wills. Whenever I'm Medium, I often take the lead by D4, I've had occasions where town followed me over the revealed Mayor and even the Jailor just because I was so active and had so much information from the dead. As a result of my activity in public, more people stayed when they died and paid better attention to the game because they knew they could still have an impact of the game, which in turn gave me even more information. You also don't really have to fear for your life as medium because the Medium role is automatically near the bottom of the Mafia priority list. And even if they kill you, you still have your seance. It took me a long time to find the true potential of the Medium role, I think I can even say it's the role with the highest learning curve, but once you get good at it, it can become one of the most powerful roles. The main weakness is that you still have to rely on others. Even if you play optimally and try your hardest to steer the town in the right direction, if they don't cooperate or if the dead never talk to you, you're basically useless. (Then again, the same can be said for any investigative role)
You should do one with all roles, and another where you take into account how fun or interesting each one is to play. For example bodyguard might be really useful, but it’s not that fun because your job is to die.
I've definitely had a couple games, not in high rank or anything, in which a disguiser messed up some results. I think if you're lucky and understand the role, you can buy another day for your team. But yeah, I agree with the ranking.
Im my opinion, remove the juggernaut's power being tied to kills and just make them grow stronger every night. Maybe make it so they can't kill until they reach full power at night 5 and give them powerful defense to make them a reflection of Plaugue/pest
If blackmailed targets can’t vote, it would be a pretty decent buff. As for Framer, would be nice if the ability would persist for 2 or 3 nights. For the hypnotist, i honestly don’t know how to buff this except by making hypno invisible to spy
I think framer would be so much better if spy didn't see them bc they could frame someone without visiting them, and could visit someone else separately (so like they could frame someone but still go on the jailor in order to claim doc)
Can ı ask why there is not neutral killing in this tier list? I know they are in coven as well but still interacting with ranked roles little bit differently or these roles just die in day 3 or something I want to know.
I think Spy should be S tier, probably right below mayor and above all the RM. Spy is very powerful being able to find the witch/exe if hit by maf and confirming who was visited by maf. Having a spy also prevents a lot of RT maf roles from claiming their town counterpart, like consort claiming escort. Spy makes a big impact on the game.
If you guys enjoy tier list videos, I'll make a coven one in the future
Yes please
That would be awesome
YES
One for Town Traitor would be awesome
Very interesting
"why does mafia want majority?"
I mean hey, I don't Intend to get philosophical here but I don't think it's a good idea to question their motives...
LOL
therapist plays town of salem
Yeah, I've done that and- oh shit the mafia's at my door.
Based on the premise of "ranking in terms of carry potential", exe and jester would be S+ because for the most part, they rely on just themselves for their win
And that also makes them has their own tier precisely because the role's winning condition. They exist just to fuck everyone really lmao.
Well yeah. Seems like any neutral role whose job isn't just to live is to mess with everyone.
Executioner and jester are actually dependant on variables
U need to eighter somehow try to earn a towns trust before ur attacked by maf, ur target is killed or somehow get certain conditions that make pushing ezier or u have to hope maf helps u problem is if mafia is good they are gonna push and make ur own job harder
If ur jest the last lines opposite is true, but issue is when u become sus jailor is gonna get ti on ur booty and u have to try to not look sus and look sus at the same time if u get what I'm sayin
@@mma070181 the unstoppable attack doesn't really matter once you win, it's irrelevant to how good the role is at winning
Worst thing is if evils all give up in first few days or town is really, really efficient and lucky you can be completely missed while town hangs other evil every day. You sometimes have to hope to be noticed by town enough to be lynched, but not enough to be shot/exed which against actual good town is a coin flip, maybe they hang the found GF and then exe you for whatever sus behavior you tried to get town to lynch you. It's definitely better than mafia or NK since even if evils do throw you still have a win con, but I'd rather still be town in most games when I care for elo.
I personally would have put GF in low A, but B is totally fair. think we’ve all seen a GF solo the entire game before, but that could just be skill and not the role.
@@AnotherDuck If a role is necessary that doesn't mean it's good
A jester and executioner 80% of the time alters the outlook of the game. Honestly would’ve put them in S tier lol
They’re so strong that the threat of them just having the chance of existing can alter the course of the game, particularly d2.
@@GogiRegion Fr
Yeah, like jeez, why aren't they higher? You know it's a powerful ability when it fundamentally changes the way you play the game.
I remember 2 games i had as jester
1.around the beginning i confided with a random town to help get me killed later, a bunch of dead bodies later there are 3 people left me, a random towny, and a sk or mafia this was a long time ago. The towny accused me, and the killer jumped on that claim. They both voted guilty. The killer killed the last town i haunted the killer i was the only winner.
2. So the previous game i annoyed someone by constantly role-blocking them as consort. They showed up in the next game i played and i didnt change my name so they wanted revenge. The twist was i became jester so he got everyone to vote me. I got hanged i killed him the same night. Those are my best jester games.
Exactly. One time I was mayor, about to do the surprise reveal play. I could have won the game, but the jest killed me and we lost
We're on the same page for most of this. I feel like you undervalue Blackmailer though. Some of my best mafia games have been due to having a Blackmailer on the team. Hell, my favorite mafia setup excluding anything with consort is Blackmailer + Ambusher. Blackmailer kinda just gets you a lot of information and it tells you who TP is on and who LO is on and who jailor is and it essentially gives you all the information you need to properly choose your kills and win the game. You can also frame with blackmailer by having someone who whispered be killed. This appears to make the recipient of the whispers suspicious. You ALSO get to straight-up say no to someone's ability to speak. In a game where townies need to win by discussing who the evils are, this role seems to me like it's on par with Forger, Consigliere, and Janitor. I know I'm probably biased and that you're better than me but I feel like Blackmailer is undervalued. IMO, low A or high B.
Great video. :D
Would you do an all any tier list?
SSSSSSS++++++GODPLUSUNIVERSE= PB
*Instantly puts surv on F tier*
That'd be L O N G.
@@NStripleseven ;)
@@darkneonbtw5730 nah its an A tier
I have only seen one good disguiser play so far. The disguiser disguised the Mafioso as one of the vigilante. Two lookouts saw the "vigi" visit the maf and they got lynched. Second vigil shot one of the lookouts. That play alone singlehandedly won mafia the game.
It was the most confusing game I've played yet. No one could figure out what happened. The chaos worked perfectly for mafia.
Disguiser is a role that doesn't work often I think, but if it works, it works incredibly well. People don't suspect the possibility of disguisers. It's a very under the radar role.
I think Retri deserves a bit higher. Though it is very situational it absolutely can turn a game around in the right circumstances. Other than that I think this is a really accurate list
Ret is definitely B. Not higher
Agreed, that was pretty much the only one I disagreed with in this tier list
The thing about ret is that its a comeback role so ofc its not gonna be consistent. This format is hard for tos roles, as some rely on whats already in the table... like med is easily s tier in a jani + ambusher game for example, but in a consig + consort game med is definitely c tier
Ret can be really fun or it can be really boring
I am typing this after the ret remake, however your logic is not sound. The ret brings someone else back, and that person has the opportunity to change the game again, not necessarily the ret. Also, consistency is a problem. Sure you can get a huge swing with an awesome ret target that wins you the game. At the same time, you can get the perfect frame off that essentially wins you the game - problem is, it doesn't happen often enough. Whenever you type 'in the right circumstances' you need to start wondering whether you are committing any combination of (Base rate fallacy - making a probability judgment based on conditional probabilities), (Inconsistent comparison - different methods of comparison are used), (Begging the question (petitio principii) - using the conclusion of the argument in support of itself)... There are others, but although your statement is short, it is incredibly flawed.
When you put hypno in D:
Maybe I am a monster.
D:
@@TheMysticStrider LOL just noticed that
I think hypno is kinda fun but it is so useless
It can work in all any maybe, but overall in ranked it's pretty meh. People get to the conclusion it is an hypno quickly
@@neeren777 yeah
Not only is it great you made this tier list, but the fact i get to listen to osrs music in the background while listening to your list makes it 5x better
Been looking for one of these for a while, thank you for making this! How about how good a role would be as TT (even if it can’t be TT) next? I don’t know, could be fun.
What’s TT?
Really enjoy the video and your arguments, you went in-depth with each justification and possible scenarios that each roles are good and bad with, which could be good knowledge for people who wants to get better at understanding and playing them. I especially agree with your emphasis on how some roles need to rely on others to win and that is often a deciding factor knowing how diverse the skill level and playstyles the playerbase have. With that being said I believe many people can still take advantage of other players not yet understanding how Disguiser work to cause mislynch at the moment so it's not completely bad to play as.
I'd rank Blackmailer a bit higher than Consig (though there's probably a preference involved here), because a lot of roles can be known via VFR these days that the information you found don't contribute as much and you just kinda help Spy eliminate the mafs when you visit. Blackmailer however can help maf learn more specific info reading whispers and the blackmailing ability is adaptable depending on the situation (confirmed TIs, active town, spy presence, you can also fake blackmailing). I like having the options.
I would argue a bit for Medium as well because if it's not a Jani game (and we often know this by D2) it's easily confirmed by Invest. It's a scum role to claim as but unlike Sheriff people don't claim it that much anymore, Consort can't do flummery to Medium and it hard counters Ambusher, Forger and Janitor which is a bunch of high-tier mafias right there. Still doesn't mean it should go any higher than B-tier but it deserves some recognition I think.
I agree with most of the placements here although I'd personally move Medium to B teir and Spy up S+. Even though Spy doesn't have killing power the fact that it can single handily change how the random mafia play, and how it's relatively easy to confirm a real spy over a fake spy due to his bug ability makes this role the second most powerful. In a game like tos information is the most powerful ability of all.
Thank you so much man, just got into the game and this totally helps!!!! In the past couple weeks I’ve seen so many of your videos and there really shaping me into a good player. Definitely make more videos like this. Your the best!!
I disguised my mafioso as the spy, lookout went to our target and saw the "spy" kill the townie, spy gets hanged and lookout ends up loosing credibility and exed by the jailor, my best disg game, but it's pure luck XD
I always thought ambusher was trash because he gets caught the most out of any other role. Thanks for explaining why he is actually OP!
I would've put Lookout as top of S tier. Basically an autoconfirm. It also confirms TP when Jailor is out and they can't save anyone because they are stuck on jailor. The reason I think this is better than Transporter is because I've never seen a game that Lookout has ruined.
I would've put Godfather in S+ tier. I play mostly ranked practice and Coven all any. It hurts to play mafia without a Godfather. Godfather shows as "Seems innocent" to sheriff and he is immune to Vigilante. I've pulled off more plays as Godfather because of these than any other mafia role. You can fake claim spy and get confirmed by Sheriff. You can claim TK and a tk cc who is forced to attack you, wastes their night, and there is a chance that they will get lynched for claiming you were immune (while you say you were never attacked). If an investigator checks you, you can claim you "must've been doused". It's unlikely you will die to Vet/BG because most of the time you aren't the one who kills. Mafia also tends to defend you the most. It's hard to argue that any other mafia role is as good as Godfather.
Lookout belongs in the S+ tier, possibly even above Jailor. It is arguably the most powerful role in the entire game.
With one in the round you can instantly confirm 3+ Townies by Day 2 and all but eliminate claimspace for evils.
It's incredibly powerful, rivaled only by the original incarnations of the Spy, Mayor and Retributionist, and the aforementioned Jailor
man, maybe spy needs a damn nerf with how it's the hard counter to almost every damn mafia role
but with every counter comes another counter. you just have to pretty much play smarter when you notice a spy is in the game. it's not that it's "broken", it's just a good counter to certain mafia roles due to how it's role works. You can use certain gimmicks to "confirm" yourself as a townie if spy comes out early, you just have to find a way to make it believable ofc.
Easy way to nerf spy is remove bugs. It’s not a big nerf but makes him worse and makes it easier for evils to fake
@@blazeiken2 well the definition of broken is something that changes the whole game
So you could say spy is broken as iyt changes the whole dynamic of the game simply by existing
I think what you mean is its not op
@@badfrad1754 well without Bugs if there is no maf or coven they have literally nothing to do. Might be less common in ranked but still can happen.
New disguiser has so many mechanics, both from learning how it interacts with spy (which is weird) and somehow hides mafia, it's really weird but it can start to help, like framing a townie by disguising themselves, so that no mafia get visited but a townie is visited, and the townie seems to be maf when disg is revealed.
To me, Disguiser is essential in a spy game and useful in a LO game.
If you disguise your mafioso to ie. a medium, kill a LO target, LO sees your possible RM and the medium. But because medium cannot visit, town is either going to lynch the medium or the LO for having "fake" results. Or even both. Very useful for mislynches.
"Maf could just say it's a exe push" pipe even if there is a confirmed exe spot some towns will still be gullible to believe people who find some one sus night 1
All i can think is "OOF"
Reps been planning one of these for a while
@@mitchy2200 yea, bc opinions are illegal in 2020
Opinions? What are those? I thought it was my way or the highway?
@iRepptar oh i definitely do, i do wonder what the differences will be.
I mostly agree with this, honestly. But I would appreciate one for all the roles (non-coven/coven). Possibly for other role lists specifically too. For example, a tier list for lovers, etc. Mainly because it really just depends on how the gamemode is supposed to be played. For example, if you're escort in all any, you're pretty much screwed. But if you're veteran in all any, you're going to have a VERY fun time. Things like that. It's a pretty good concept, all around.
P.S.
I would like to ask (no reply needed) that you do custom role lists; role lists made by the community. That is, if you think they're a good role list. For example, the custom role list of the basic townie setup, but with 2 Mafia, 2 coven, and a nk and ne. I think that'd be a good idea. But please do make this into a series. It's really interesting and helpful.
This is really informative, thank you for making it :)
The Disguiser shines on combination with other trash roles.
If you disguise the Framer or Hypnotist, they can actually use their abilities.
This is a video I didn’t know I needed but once I saw it, I knew I had to see it.
i'd love to see one for all the other roles (especially like SK, werewolf, jugg and the coven)! please make more tier lists :)
Maybe 2 good buffs for framer would be to also alter the investigator results and maybe not show up on the mafia visits? Hypno is sorta hard cause the really can't be altered that much without being busted. Also love the runescape music!!
finally what i have been waiting for!
and yes, we want more videos like this..
The thumbnail is very appealing! Great design recently, in general :)
I transed townies who were targeted twice by maf in a row saved them and the new targets were cleaned
1 of those new targets was the mafioso
I was killed for being "hypno"
Hypnos only use really is to make all ts claims sus
maybe a tier list of all coven expansion roles?
I'd love to see a tier list oriented towards the Coven All Any gamemode
I will finally know what scrolls to buy
Scrolls dont wotk in ranked-
@@tweektweak2145 ranked practice tho
what an excellent and insightful video mr pipe, thank you
YAY 😁 a much wanted video, smashed that like button
I actually randomly found this, when I wanted to see something like it
When he goes into explaining the mafia, my brain just went
"That's how mafia works"
I'll be honest, med should be higher. Medium counters ambusher, but not too much higher. I'd say mid to low B.
And medium can easily confirm with other mediums too in order to easily fill up RT roles.
@@NStripleseven It counters Janitor and Forger if the townies stick around.
@@NStripleseven An 84% chance to counter at least one mafia role isn't so bad.
The reason I agree with Pipe here is that the medium's power is entirely dependent on whether people stick around after they die and how helpful the people in dead chat are. In most of my medium games, the dead chat is underwhelming and useless.
@@sweetcornwhiskey Ranked matches is better than any other matches. Community in ranked is considered to be good but there is still a chance for some idiots decided to throw the game.
I think the hypnotist is a great role when there is no spy,cause all you need to do is claim tp and “transport someone” or claim escort and “rb someone”. And framer can fake doc when no spy then frame someone and the sheriff/invest will say he is suspicious and boom,free. Although I can understand how crappy those roles are when there is a spy.
Townies: God spy doesn’t do anything it sucks
Mafia: We need to kill spy ASAP or he’ll ruin the game for us
playing spy is the most boring experience you'll have in this game, apart from Psychic in coven
Haven't played the game for a while. Did they remove neutral killing roles from ranked games?
Sadly, yes
Wtf why? Feels so random
@@Fin8192 the win rate of neutral killers was low, so they removed them outright
Great tier list! Was happy to hear some runescape background music too haha
heres my list:
ambusher: S
bg: A
doc: A) in coven its above bg and maybe even S because it can counter poisoner sometimes for the entire game.
forger: A
consig: high B
escort: B) in coven A, like one time I was a jugg and got rbed basically all game.
godfather: high B
bmer: lower B
framer: C or D (i'd chose d if no conf sheriff slot)
consort: high A
vigilante: high S to low S +
hypno: C below framer
transporter: A maybe S in the right hands its high S
invest: A or B if there was one in the middle i'd put it there
jailor: S + for obvious reason
janitor A
LO: A or B it DID get nerfed which can be a pain and can give inaccurate info, though I cant remember a time when that happened.
mafioso: C just worse version of Godfather.
disg: C name one time you've seen it do anything
mayor: S or S + though, mayor can lose the game basically whoever they vote gets voted (when town maj)
medium: probably B or C can be nerf janitor or in coven nerf medusa and get more info so maybe A but most of the time unless its an invest that info isnt useful.
retri: in CAA its an F but in ranked probably a C or an B if theres bg or vigi
sheriff: low B to C, theres a decent chance they vote you because exe or framer.
spy: probably an S though at the bottom it can counter almost all RM though I can see an A.
vet: B if theres a janitor it can double kill maf also I agree with your points, and
witch: this is a hard one to grade i'd put it in high A if jailor doesnt reveal and if they do S definitely.
big P if you're reading this tell me what you agree with, also im an s + + + with ALL of these. Also if you want I can make my own coven tier list in the comments.
This was really nice to have on while I did homework, another one would be awesome! Also, I notice sometimes you take your mouse off screen, copy something like invest results and paste it, what reference do you use?
Should’ve graded the roles on how easy it is to win as them. That way you could include neutral roles in the tier list. A role like jailor in the role list immediately affects town’s ability to win where a medium probably does little to help town win. Obviously it depends if something like a janitor is also in the role list, but generally a medium isn’t as valuable as a transporter.
AYY IVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS I DO ENJOY THIS CONTENT PLEASE MAKE MORE
Honestly i was so surprised when you said that hypno is trash. Imo its one of the most powerful mafoa roles (Not as powerful as ambusher, but definitely more powerful then all the mi's) you can essentially confirm your entire team (even with spy in game in most cases) and you are so good at creating chaos. It just needs mafia that cooperate.
Yeah I had my mafioso get jailed so I hypnotized someone and made them think that they were attacked and also claimed doc and basically confirmed me and saved my mafioso
I think Medium should deserve more love. It can counter ambusher, janitor and forger, and from my experience, even if I don't claim d1, I've confirmed myself quite a lot of times by just spam posting dead chat. A downside I do see is that it heavily relies on town not leaving after they die.
The only time I hate ambusher (when playing it) is when there’s a medium. The only hope you’ll have is if the Maf/ GF kills the med or have to smooth talk your way out of it, sounds like a 50/50 and it probably is for most, my luck is just terrible
I was playing Runescape while watching and I thought I had music on.
Good video!
Hey!! I suggested this! Lmao thank you Pipetron
Town Traitor roles would be a nice one to do if it wasn't already done, Mayor Town Traitor is powerful
Pipe i think you shouldnt forget that even though witch is a very useful role to mafia and evils,they lose when they die unlike a consort for example consort can still win when they die but witch has to be alive in order to win,yes witch can do a lot of stuff but they need to stay alive,and i think thats the reason that witch has significantly less win rate than any other mafia(according to a post i saw on reddit)
i played a game the other day where mafia got a townie lynched the day after killing TP because they disguised their mafioso and made it look like the townie visited the dead player, who had a lookout on them. it almost got the lookout lynched as well but luckily enough town knew they were confirmed from earlier and recognized it as a disguiser play.
I am not disappointed with this recommendation TH-cam!
Jester is s+ tier hands down, you can enjoy the flow of the game as it descends into chaos as you can usually play with ease.
Ahhh Jester and Executioner... Just causing chaos is such a evil thing.
I 100% agree with jailor, first time playing lead the game killing Mafioso and framer then letting jest get lynched to kill gf :p
HOLLLYYYH SHIITTTT HE ACTUALLY DID IT WTF. I’m very pleased with you today, 👍👍👍👍😁
Interesting video! Don't agree on the disg tho, it's kunde powerful too! Say framer and disg, framer frame someone, disg disguises framer, spy won't see who the framer visits, ti call them sus. We lynch the townies for the 1f1. Vig shoots accuser, who is actual sheriff. Sheriff dead. Town hangs the spy who didn't see the framers visit 😂
Disguisers movements arent seen unless they disg gf I think 🤔 he can disg the known tp as himself and lo will see disgs name instead of the tps name. Still trying to figure the role out but it's fun!
Hypno is also kinda strong I think, if used correctly. Esp with forger in game to hide hypnos maf visits etc 😊
You get 10/10 bananas for this video! 😘 🌸
tier list idea: neutral roles (aside from NK) in coven all any base on their win conditions (or maybe how they can affect the game) 👀
I love this kind of video, especially the parts were you stopped to explain how each role plays and/or should be played. As a fairly new player who is trying ranked for the first time stuff like that is super usfull. Did you think about doing some guide series on each role? Or some videos were you are explaining why you are making each move, how you find people sus etc.?
Even though Hypno is a terrible random mafia, his presence is CRUCIAL for the sake of balancing because it is the ONLY role in the game who can consistently claim Transporter. Back in the day, the 2 main concerns about ranked was Retri and Transporter being too powerful, so Retri got nerfed and Hypno got added to ranked in order to prevent Transporter from instantly getting confirmed. Hypno is there for balancing purposes, not because he is good
I’d personally put ambusher in A tier or lower, since every ranked game I’ve played that had an ambusher, they get found n1. Could just be me being low elo
Remember don't let this tier list deter you no matter what role you get it still helps your allies just play right and play smart
I would actually say witch should be lower. It’s a great role, but the problem is it relies on the mafia being competent without being able to know them from the get go. If it’s hit by maf spies often out it, and the invest results of LO forger witch make it difficult as if you are found LO is hard to fake especially if the jail or is out.
ive been waiting for this one yay :D
Ehh I think if you’re ranking them on their effectiveness and over all impact to win games then I would put exe/jest in S tier given the wide variety of plays they could make to get the win. The win for exe/jest also relies on that player alone and any info against you brought in by town or mafia just helps you potentially achieve your goal of getting yourself hanged or killing your target. On the other hand, you could be a very good vigi and found by Maf/witch n1 and then sometimes the game is just out of your hands.
IMO Bmer Should Be A, I've Had Lots Of Games Where I Had Information To Save The Town But We Lose Bc I Was Bmed.
TRUE
Why capitalize Half Of The Words In Your Sentence?
Had a game where our GF is blackmailed because of witch accidentally witched our bmer n1 and our gf is jailed but since our gf is bmed confirmed by spy and released from jailor we can hard confirming our gf as non-mafia and make him unsuspect.
Ambusher and Disguiser Would make a good duo when visiting the jailor
I admit, I haven't played TOS with the new buffs and all that, but I have played A LOT of ToS.
So here's my take.
Information is power.
And Lookout provides the most information in the game. It can basically confirm themselves pretty quickly and confirm several others. Spy is a close second.
No the information won't matter if Mafia gains majority, but in the grand scheme of things Lookout does more for town than several other roles you put above it. I would put it in S tier.
Like the TP's, who i think both belong in B tier. TP is an important role to have in the game, but they aren't really solving anything. They rely on everyone else to provide them information (which especially sucks when your teammates aren't that good).
And it's hard to say whether Doctor or BG is better because it depends on the situation you're in, but I think Doctor is usually better.
Sure BG can take out an evil, but they die along with them. It normally benefits town to still do so and can sometimes be game changing, but Doctor can save a townie and keep going to save more. Doctor being able to provide that protection for longer will keep evils off of your important roles for longer and imo is more reliable.
Vigilante I do not think belongs in S tier or at least not above Lookout and Spy. It's a risky role. Especially with Witch around. If you're the perfect Vigilante and take out 3 evils yourself then yeah I guess it would be S tier, but that's not gonna happen that often.
And Veteran should probably at least be B tier. It's an easy role to confirm and typically makes it far into the game to clutch out wins when needed. And if people aren't reading chat and are visiting you as townies, then that's just them being bad, not Veteran being bad.
Everything else seems to have pretty solid placement. :)
Ret not only revives a townie but also confirms two two roles at the same time
Ret doesn't do that anymore
@@PipeTron I mean like if somone gets killed and revived it's a confirm because their role is revealed and if ret claims his role before the resurection confirms it
I agree with where you put Investigator. I don't think you should've put blackmailer in the same tier as investigator. You can read whispers, but you won't get any useful information if you blackmail, because town will immediately know that you did. Even in games where there is no spy, you confirm living townies and expose that one of the random mafias in Blackmailer. It's important that you keep random mafias a secret so in no spy games you can accuse Investigators of being consig or escorts of being consort etc.
I would argue he is only slightly better than hypnotist because he can read whispers.
I would love to buff or nerf individual roles without making the faction generally more or less powerful.
I do not think mafioso should be a role but instead that gf designates a mafia as acting mafioso for the night. But i also think that would make mafia too powerful.
Also, spy just needs to be rid of that passive ability. Buff bug so that it gives the player's results from that night or something. Im fine with its strength but it does make the game less fun for other roles or invalidates them.
There is no good options or plays with hypno that arent to blend in with town. Even then, they are not very good at it.
Maybe medium should just learn the roles and nights results of dead town automatically instead of needing the dead to tell them. That would make it decent. Not any better if dead played like they should, but it skips the middle man.
I do think disguisers do not play as they should. I think they should disguise random town constantly as it can make good will inconsistencies, and will inconsistencies are more reliable lynches than what the framer does. And it does 2 town members at a time. If a sheriff checks a mafia, they probably are just going to be seen as exe anyways.
One of the things i love the most as witch is to basically use mafia from the outside. Usually you basically consig a couple townies and by n3 you figured out who evils are, mafia goes for TI n1 n2 so if you found TP you witch maf/gf into them. I don't like perma witching jailor as theres a chance of them executing town, tho if there's a successful 1 for 1 in favor of mafia, ez witch jailor. There's nothing better than witching jailor into executing town.
In my opinion, being Medium is one of my favorites, if not in my top personal favorite, roles. I absolutely adore the idea of speaking to the dead chat - despite the times there would be no information whatsoever. Talking to dead chat is such a unique concept for me because it gives a reason as to why players can still participate despite being killed off. It is my personal favorite role and probably will be for a long while. However - when I recently saw this game around the summer of my country, I never really understood why it is all it could do. It's just very disappointing to me because it takes such a unique idea but it never really goes further. I admit it is such a weak role, powerful if used correctly but I doubt a high possibility, that if I were to play a game of Town of Salem, I would have mixed emotions all throughout the game. And I noticed people don't really take the role seriously, which is understandable but kind of saddening for me, to be honest. However, I do agree with your statements. Perhaps liking Medium is my choice of liking weaker, more strategic, and non-killing roles that do not give me too much pressure. But it is my opinion and I agree with you. :D
Also, I really like that Medium skin. I don't know why but I just really like it.
14:01: Transporter also has the uno reverse card.
17:36: I mean, why bother with spy when it’s so obvious that 2 mafia visited the dead target if u see the dead target as cleaned?
Man blackmailer,consigliere and godfather were my favorite mafia roles, i felt attacked watching this lmao
respect the list a lot! i'd argue that ret should be at bottom of B teir tho based on my experiences. i once played a game as ret where the bg and doc both died night one. i put bg on the jailor and killed 2 evils night 1. another game i mained the escort and roleblocked maf from killing 4 nights in a row. but definitely agree that the strength of the ret depends on dead town! :D
Ooooh a spicy video! Can’t wait to see what you tier them as!
I think Medium is the only role I'm in disagreement with.
Contrary to what many people say, it's pretty easy to confirm yourself in a way thats pretty hard to fake.
You have the ability to copy paste text from death chat. All this text combined is often more than what can fit in your will and you can copy paste it faster than you'd be able to from external programs.
And death chat is where all the info goes that Mafia didn't want to come out. Appart from the info the dead get from when they were alive, now that they are dead, they are no longer distracted with keeping their will up to date and worrying about their own life. They are often able to more accurately scum read and have more time on their hands to cross reference wills.
Whenever I'm Medium, I often take the lead by D4, I've had occasions where town followed me over the revealed Mayor and even the Jailor just because I was so active and had so much information from the dead.
As a result of my activity in public, more people stayed when they died and paid better attention to the game because they knew they could still have an impact of the game, which in turn gave me even more information.
You also don't really have to fear for your life as medium because the Medium role is automatically near the bottom of the Mafia priority list. And even if they kill you, you still have your seance.
It took me a long time to find the true potential of the Medium role, I think I can even say it's the role with the highest learning curve, but once you get good at it, it can become one of the most powerful roles.
The main weakness is that you still have to rely on others. Even if you play optimally and try your hardest to steer the town in the right direction, if they don't cooperate or if the dead never talk to you, you're basically useless. (Then again, the same can be said for any investigative role)
lol I don't even play this game, but they way you talk about it is very interesting
You should do one with all roles, and another where you take into account how fun or interesting each one is to play. For example bodyguard might be really useful, but it’s not that fun because your job is to die.
I’m loving all this content Pipe :D
Coven all any makes jester instant win tier
I've definitely had a couple games, not in high rank or anything, in which a disguiser messed up some results. I think if you're lucky and understand the role, you can buy another day for your team. But yeah, I agree with the ranking.
Hey pipe!
I’ve been seeing a lot of discussion around jugg being weak and I want your opinion on the role and what should be changed, if anything.
Im my opinion, remove the juggernaut's power being tied to kills and just make them grow stronger every night. Maybe make it so they can't kill until they reach full power at night 5 and give them powerful defense to make them a reflection of Plaugue/pest
Jane Doe I think this would actually make jugg weaker, it would take far too long for kills and you’d be fucked by then
If blackmailed targets can’t vote, it would be a pretty decent buff. As for Framer, would be nice if the ability would persist for 2 or 3 nights. For the hypnotist, i honestly don’t know how to buff this except by making hypno invisible to spy
where would you put the NKs back when they were ingame post buffs
@pipetron, how about timers on description for each class?
As a casual (mostly ranked practice) player, some of these surprised me, especially ambusher in S.
I think framer would be so much better if spy didn't see them bc they could frame someone without visiting them, and could visit someone else separately (so like they could frame someone but still go on the jailor in order to claim doc)
You missed the Giles Corey role. It's at the bottom of D tier though because everybody knows it's always evil.
Can ı ask why there is not neutral killing in this tier list? I know they are in coven as well but still interacting with ranked roles little bit differently or these roles just die in day 3 or something I want to know.
NK isn't in ranked anymore
I am confused about framer. Didn't they buff him to make mafia not suspisious?
Regarding the doctor, the doctor can protect from ambusher and vet attacks while the BG can't. You did not mention that.
I think Spy should be S tier, probably right below mayor and above all the RM. Spy is very powerful being able to find the witch/exe if hit by maf and confirming who was visited by maf. Having a spy also prevents a lot of RT maf roles from claiming their town counterpart, like consort claiming escort. Spy makes a big impact on the game.
I would honestly expect spy in S
I miss Arso, SK, and WW
tbh i miss the old role list without buffs...like it was balanced unfairly for town but it gave me a lot more joy when I won as evil
It annoyed me how much the nk threw because their winrate was so low
I want to debait that Ret is slightly better! It much me last in B tier!