How Bisexuality Changed Video Games
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ย. 2024
- Do you play video games? Or do they play you?
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Games discussed: Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, Borderlands 2, Butterfly Soup, Coming Out Simulator 2014, Demi Lovato: Path to Fame, Dragon Age: Origins, Dream Daddy, Fable, Fallout 4, Fallout New Vegas, Fragments of Him, Greedfall, Hades, Life is Strange, Mass Effect, Morrowind, Night in the Woods, The Outer Worlds, Phantasmagoria 2: A Puzzle of Flesh, Rimworld, The Sims, Skyrim, Stardew Valley
Video essay by Ada Černoša and Verity Ritchie
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Your smile is gorgeous btw
I'm very new to this channel but I love your literal everything. Subbed!
Your videos are great. Love them.
By the way - when you mentioned that the game doesn’t make it clear as to whether or not Parvati is bi, rather than just gay, she actually does mention that she’s been with men before. However, they always broke it off because of her asexuality putting them off.
Is there a listing of all the sources used in here? I wanted to look into purchasing any books.
"This playersexual mechanic goes back decades-"
"What, like the Atari or NES?"
"...to the original Sims and Fable."
"Oh, right. I'm miserably old."
🤣 Same
Ow... my back... I need to sit down. Someone bring grandma a whisky.
Same
Mood. Big, big mood.
Love and miss you sweetie2001 was two decades agowhy don't you visit sometimelove you, Grandpa Andrew
While I appreciate the fact that some characters in video games are strictly gay or lesbian, I am also a bitter bisexual that wants to be loved by everyone.
As a fellow bitter bisexual, isn't being rejected by people you have a crush on simply because they aren't attracted to your gender part of the experience? If anything, it's better representation 😂
True, but if it's a power fantasy video game, I shouldn't have to face that harsh reality. I want to kiss pretty people without consequence. 😓
Cries in non-romanceable as a male character Cullen and Blackwall in DA3 😭😭😭
I just wish they'd record the voice-acting for every character to be bisexual, and then write the narrative canon to fit their plot - gay, straight, and bi characters. Then, after, players will mod the damn game anyway. Everyone wins.
@@kazune414 mod it. I just wish they'd recorded the dialogue to recognize multiple gender choices. I know it costs more and then they're just hiding the files if they decide Cullen is straight and Dorian is gay, but then the files are there and they can still end up 'playersexual' for each player's world. Is it as realistic? Maybe not. But would it both normalize all types of relationships AND let people romance as they will? Yup.
“The goth girl and the emo guy didn’t know they were bi?”
My favorite line in the video
REMIXXXXX
I’m actually surprised that Monster Prom/Monster Camp wasn’t mentioned in this. In that game, you can play as a boy/girl or even as a non-gender conforming monster. And you can date characters based on your attraction and nothing would change. Literally everyone in monster prom and monster camp is bisexual-
same with the arcana
@@ErieRosewood Oh yeah, the arcana !
@@ErieRosewood Arcana is such a pretty game
Wouldn't that be playersexual then?
And the characters are openly bisexual too. Polly is in love with Faith, Scott in Roadtrip sometimes mentions liking men. Damien is mentioned to have had a bisexual threesome with Aaravi and Liam.There's also a whole storyline where you have an orgy with all characters in Prom.
I love how Fallout New Vegas in many ways, one of which is that you can choose perks to determine if you’re straight, gay, or bi; and being bi is the most powerful option as it gives you the most dialogue options and a 10% damage bonus to men and women.
Just like in real life
@@sniedendepoes 💀💀
There's no reason _not_ to be bisexual in New Vegas. +10% damage boost for all human enemies, unique dialogue, and you can sleep with most the prostitutes. (Although, F.I.S.T.O. is my main squeeze.)
Bisexual supremacy
which perks?
We could use an update on this topic now that Baldur's Gate 3 is out. I initially thought they were going the DA2 route of everyone being playersexual if you pursue them, and in theory it does, but with the added twist that none of the companions can keep it in their pants. They pursue you relentlessly, and if they can't, they pursue each other! And the ways in which they do so generally canonizes them as bisexual. It's still a fairly utilitarian approach to RPG romance, a lot less of a hassle to implement, but BG3's model seems like an evolution on Stardew Valley.
And to add a bit on this because someone might say it's "not on the writing" and "it's mostly mechanics you are saying", I have to say that it is in the writing too and it's very explicit, although it's a bit of a spoiler, so it will be far below:
It's explicitly said that Astarion had been with other men before and it's shown during the reunion with Sebastian, Sebastian was clearly in love with Astarion. It doesn't matter if you chose to romance Astarion or not.
@@randomthoughts6680 adding more examples onto yours, some minor spoilers below
- If playing as Karlach (one of the coolest options this game came up with was origin player characters tbh) and camping before you pick up any other companions she will have a little dream moment where she explicitly imagines herself in a threesome with a man and a woman (and you can't choose not to imagine one or the other)
- Shadowheart explicitly stating an attraction to how buff both Karlach and Halsin are
- everyone just talking about Halsin being hot tbh
- Wyll flirting with both Lae'zel (reciprocated) and Shadowheart (who tells him to bugger off because she knows he flirts with Lae'zel lol) but also talking with the PC about how handsome/charming/etc. he finds Astarion
- past relationships/flings the characters had not changing due to gender of the PC (Gale and Mystra being the most obvious, Astarion and Sebastian, Shadowheart and Karlach talking about their past and present attractions to people of different genders)
There's also arguments to be made for Astarion and Wyll both being on the ace spectrum with how their dialogue in romances explicitly separates and in some ways disconnects their romantic desire for the PC from sex.
@@rhonab6698 My plan to invite more examples given worked! I wonder if the author of the video will see it.
@@randomthoughts6680 having come back to this video specifically after bg3 blew my mind by actually giving me a camp (ha!) full of bi friends and not just playersexual incidentally bi characters i had to go searching in comments to see if anyone else had the same brainwave 😂
I'm guessing this is why I've been recommended this video. BG3 has mechanical bisexuality insofar as no character will refuse romance on the basis of gender, but it doesn't retroactively change its character's romantic history and it *does* put some consideration into polyamory, with some characters refusing on principle, some open to it as long as you're emotionally involved with them, and some who are just happy to be involved in the free love. It also features prominent examples of same-sex relationships between NPCs. Given its success I'm hoping future games will build on the many things it does well in this regard.
This is wild I literally was just talking about how romance components in games, especially western dating sims, are almost designed for bisexuals because we're the only ones who can enjoy all the content
I’m straight and I married Shane, Abigail and krobus so I’m not missing out I just like having krobus around lol
i mean sick, that's cool for us, but that's sort of missing the point of this video -- it's not for bisexuals
I mean, Pans too
@@Useri-Otclt you can marry Krobus?!!
Reality itself is designed for bisexuals, for we are the only ones who can enjoy all the content >:D
I haven't played it yet but I know that Pathfinder: Kingmaker lets you be bi and poly by romancing a female elf and a male orc who were already in a established relationship prior to meeting you and later expand it to include you if you play your cards right
And they´re both openly bi too. Even if you romance regongar as a fully straight woman, he´ll still show attraction for other men, and same for octavia.
Also I love that one of the ways that you get to start your romance with Regongar (the orc) is by agreeing with him that monogamy is trash lol.
I own that game but haven't played it! I sense a bi, poly, mystical warrior of some sort in my near future.
Eh, the game kind of tells you your a bad person for being a gay guy so maybe this isn’t the BEST example.
@@gystes_ why?
@@presidenttogekiss635 You and this thread are enlightened af
as an asexual I sometimes wish that more games gave you the option to just have a platonic relationship, friendship being the highest form of relationship an the end goal, rather than flirting and romancing or even marrying your "love interest".
i feel this so much
you would love krobus in stardew valley then.
yess this!!!
Persona kinda has that, what with you being able to reach rank 10 regardless of whether you romance the character. Unfortunately Persona doesn’t have homosexual/bisexual relationship options, doesn’t offer gender choice in most of the games, and has plenty of LGBT stereotype characters… so you win some you lose some I guess.
actually, you can have it in stardew valley! this video didn't do it enough justice, really... there is a little creature in the sewers, their name is krobus and you can invite them to live with you instead of getting married (in game krobus uses he/him pronouns but you can have a mod that changes it to they/them). you'll be hugging every morning instead of kissing like in regular relationships.
"Traits: Pyromanic, depressive, bisexual" Finally! I feel seen!
if i had a tinder, this would be my new bio
+
I’m now wondering if being depressed and having barely-restrained pyromania is just part of being a bisexual, because hard same my friend.
@@constantreader1422 If you are a pyromaniac I wouldn't let you within 2 yards of any sort of tinder.
Is this a rimworld referrence
Don't forget that Undertale was made (mostly) by 1 dude, and includes a canonically bisexual dinosaur/lizard monster, whom you help go on a date with a canonically lesbian fish monster, multiple non-binary characters, a transgender ghost that says "fuck your gender roles", and 2 gay royal guards where your whole "battle" is helping them confess their feelings to each other and it doesn't end until they do and start dating.
The WHOLE TIME this was on my mind.
BLESS YOU I had never heard of this game and I now know that I need it.
@@jrj5893 How did you survive 2015-2016 without hearing about Undertale?? The entire internet wouldn’t shut up about it lol
@@chubbybunny6975 lmao I was living under a rock and playing older games like Skyrim, The Sims 3 and Fallen London. I think I remember hearing that a game existed called Undertale, but that was about as far as my knowledge went XD
@@jrj5893 you should definitely buy the game tho, it's only like 15 bucks
I feel like Hades does mechanical bisexuality right. You have to build the relationship, but you have to do that with every character, romantic or not. And even if you decide not to date Thanatos, you express romantic interest either way. Not just that, you're are given the opportunity for a healthy and honest poly relationship with him and Megara.
I'm just replying so you can see how much likes you got
@@afellowpotatoNot all heroes wear capes
I do what I do for Potatokind
ive been agonizing over who to choose and my god i don't think I've ever been happier
Fun fact, Hades also openly states that being polyamorous is not for mortals. Achilles says something to the effect of "Well, you're a God, the rules are different for you."
I never understood people that take Hades as endorsing polyamory. Most of the Gods are inbred as well, something the game doesn't shy away from, but that's hardly an endorsement; the rules are just different for Gods.
I think it's funny when Stardew NPCs are like "oh, I didn't know you were gay". Like, I'm playing Stardew Valley. It's a safe assumption.
I'm a little curious if ConcernedApe just.. didn't know how to write lgbt characters so he just kind of defaulted to what he knew. Not an excuse but ya know, he's just one dude. And at the time, most farming games, you could ONLY romance the opposite gender.
@@zombei_kid We don't really know what ConcernedApe's sexuality is, but even if he is straight, it's still pretty great that he included same-sex relationships, even if the presentation is a little bit awkward.
@@zombei_kid it’s like the situation w fable. It’s literally HARDER and more expensive to make a completely straight game bc you have to hard code a wall to prevent gayness from happening. It’s like when writing voice lines, it’s easier to say they and record one line than it is to record two lines for the binary genders and code it so it works w the player character
@@zombei_kid I think it's less a matter of not knowing how to write LGBT+ characters, and more a matter of trying to refrain from adress issues where he, as an artist, doesn't want to see his work take sides to that extent.
And this is a very sad reality when it comes to representation of minorities in entertainment: the reason Satrdew Valley is "playersexual" is precisely to give a democratic game so that LGBT+ people can feel contemplated, but without making the step further, making LGBT+ themes inherently part of the game universe. And as we see it very well in our reality, we still have to coexist with people who believe that same sex relationships affronts their values.
In an ideal world, we would have games where non-heteronormative characters would be part of their universe and would have no problem saying "We're not straight, and that's ok. You should also accept that and I'll show you why.", with the intention of this representation not just being a tool that welcomes LGBT+ people, but also that could enlighten people outside this environment to put their bigotry aside.
However, as long as the world has lots of bigot people around, who will do anything to rebuke these types of games, throwing excuses like "think about the children" or "you want to disrespect my values", many will decide to adopt the safe path of "playersexuality".
@@xz5685 This is not true for Stardew though, because you get different romance dialogue based on gender
I think one bisexual character I like the representation of is Loba from apex legends. She’s canonically bi, but her two main love interests in the games lore are women. And the game never questions her bisexuality, neither does any of the extra lore I can find. She still flirts with male characters, and she’s still just as bisexual even though she’s only romantically interested in two women in the game.
that's so cool!
I really love Apex Legends' queer rep 🥺
Apex is also just especially good about that type of stuff too. It's great
This is a great example! I think it is often forgotten how bisexuality has preferences as well
I now feel bad for maining Revenant.
Its hilarious to me and I absolutely love it that representation in mainstream gaming probably got its start from:
.
.
.
"My coding messed up so badly, now there's bisexuals EVERYWHERE"
A funnier add to this is if you think about this being how God made bisexuals. "I messed up their brain code but I'm keeping it anyways"
@@HBomb1919 that's queerness in general tbh. God's happy little accident
OHHHHH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
@@HBomb1919HELP 😭💀
In my opinion: The best Bisexual character is The Iron Bull from Dragon Age Inquisition. He is completely Bi. He will make comments about sleeping with barmaids, romance your character no matter their gender and, if you do not romance him or Dorian (who's canonically gay), there is a conversation flirt trigger between the two that starts a romance between them (without the players input). If you keep them as two members of your adventuring party long enough you will get loads of party banter between them about their budding relationship, until it's confirmed that they are sleeping together. At the end of the game, the end card for them says they travel to see each other regularly (at the end of Trespasser; the final DLC for the game) and have been for the two year time skip between the main game and the DLC. At the end of Trespasser, its confirmed that the relationship continues post game.
Gonna be honest i always did either one LMAO literally on my third playthrough and im doin bull again (and guess who im romancing next playthrough? Ah yes. Dorian. classic.) ...god i wish i could romance krem
Dragon Age had pretty great representation from the start ngl
Came here to talk about DA:I. Representation in the DA series gets better with each release. DA:O had Leliana and Zevran. DA:2 had the issue with each romance option being available for M!Hawk and Fem!Hawk, which falls more into the mechanically Bi side of things.
DA:I had and exclusively gay male romance option in Dorian, and exclusively lesbian romance option in Sera, exclusively straight with Cassandra, Cullen and Solas, and then The Iron Bull who can be romance by anyone. Iron Bull's sexuality isn't hidden if you don't romance him as OP of this thread mentioned, neither is Dorian's or Sera's who will get together with another NPC (Dorian with Iron Bull and Sera with Dana.)
@@taylorboulton177 Josephine is also romanceable as well as a bisexual! And arguably ace/aromantic since you do not sleep with her, just kiss :)
@@llamaslovedrama ah! How could I have forgotten Josie??
No when Parvati came out to me as asexual and I got the option to come out to her as ace too I actually cried. I had never seen an ace character in video games and I had never been able to play an ace character in video games I was overwhelmed😭😭😭
I'm simultaneously happy they didn't shoehorn romance into that game while also being sad I can't kiss Felix haha But the ACE thing was great and being able to support her was amazing. I love Parvati.
I just wanna hit, she's not a real person
I am not asexual, but I loved her character.
Though I didn't realize she was bi.
I am all for more Representation, even if it isn't one I am part of. Representation belongs to ALL of us Minorities
I'm not a fan of first person games because of the way the camera kinda causes motion sickness for me (I have chronic migraines and am rather susceptible sadly), but this comment actually makes me want to get it and suffer through that for this experience because I would find that so validating. Especially since, from what was said in the video, she's both asexual and biromantic? Which honestly is really rare representation in my experience since ace and aro seem to be inextricably linked in a lot of people's minds. But even just knowing Parvati exists feels incredibly validating for me as someone who is also ace and bi, so I'm very glad she was featured in this video!
Asexuals are not part of LGBT, they’re just defunct lol. Check your hormone levels
I want to point out that Duolingo is pretty openly supportive of LGBT relationships. I thought it was a case of mechanical ambivalence at first. I thought it was interesting that they didn't make sure that men only talked about their wives and not their husbands at first, then there was a straight-up romantic story where two older men talk about the song they listened to on their first date.
I'm learning Spanish, so it's hard to speak to other languages, but I would be surprised if this sort of effort wasn't present to some extent in most other languages on Duolingo. I also feel kinda frustrated learning a language with explicit gendering, but then Duolingo pops up with an article about how inclusivity is changing gendered languages.
They could have played it "safe" and gone the heteronormative route, but they didn't and I love it! I think they deserve at least a little kudos for that.
I had been working on three of the languages with stories and each featured LGBT content. Not so much in the languages that don't have stories.
Of course all the stories have been re-jiggered back into the main line, so I'm not sure which stories still exist.
before the new update there was this cute story ahout a women introducing her girlfriend to her huge family and it ended with the women’s mom saying that the girlfriend was now a daughter in that family, really warmed my heart
I'm learning French and I've only just started but there are these 2 women who are dating and in the first story one is meeting the other's family and they get welcomed into it (it's very cute). Then later on the characters get married and go on a honeymoon to new york!
I'm learning Dutch using Duolingo and I haven't gotten to any storylines yet but in the sentences that I am learning, it is pretty common for a woman to have a wife or even for a child to have dads. It is nice to see the inclusion.
I recently did a french story about a woman looking for a girlfriend, it definitely gave me chaotic gay vibes I loved it XD
I'm so glad you talked about the "polyamory" of fallout 4. It always bothered me how much people praised it for that when it's version of polyamory is "just date a bunch of different people and hope you don't get caught or they are okay with it"
What's wrong with Fallout 4?
@@damiendemers7495 Abandoning the core themes of Fallout aside, Fallout 4's companion relationships feel extremely hollow. You can increase your bond with them by repeating completely mundane tasks, like lockpicking or getting in power armour. When your "bonding points" get high enough, you get given a point blank choice of romance or continued friendship, where the extent of the romance is the option for sex and some lines being changed to have "hun" or "baby" stapled on the end. On top of all this, the companions don't even acknowledge your gender, sexuality or other concurrent romantic relationships you might be having, as none of them have any opinions on any of that. They're glorified real dolls. No person there, just an archetype painted onto an artificial being for you to enjoy however you please.
@@kiwi3085 Personally I thought the Fallout 4 companions had a good foundation, with (for the most part) interesting personalities and occupations. Their comments on situations, personal quests, and at first-glance, the like and dislike system would have been something that could rival-perhaps triumph how unique say Fallout NV companions were. Arcade Ganon being a personal favorite.
But, I don’t know if it’s the engine limitations or not enough thought, the companions just didn’t get enough moments to actually express themselves to the fullest in the game. Most of them have quests that don’t really lead to much of their dialogue changing. The romance had a nice coat of paint, but underneath it was so hollow like you said. The strangest thing is some of them like Cait will flirt with other companions like Piper, but it’s more or less played as a joke. I guess they turn softer? or flirty? around the romanced player when you talk to them (to dump heavy loot in their inventory) but that’s it. You never get to truly speak to them about events or hell even about yourself. You can’t even explain your actions, they just assume the worst.
The constant sex buff sleeping in any bed was also kinda uncomfortable imo…And there was a slightly icky feeling of trying to be poly when MacCready lost his wife and gets jealous.
And I still lament how the most developed of the companions, where he got practically a whole dlc only he can speak in and will play off your dialogue options, is a freaking unromanceable robot. And no it isn’t Codsworth with assaultron modifications.
@@unigon794 The baseline character they have is actually really cool and well fleshed out, but mechanically the relationship they have with the player is super hollow. They wrote good characters on paper and then didn't do the legwork to make it ludonarratively harmonious. It's like they made a prototype for a companion system which was a solid foundation, but then did the minimum amount of work to fit the companions within that system. They have the companions make comments on places and things you do and sometimes give you "bond points" for them, but it's on this super gamey 1 axis like/dislike system. I don't feel it was an engine limitation since I'm pretty sure there are companion mods that are able to fix this exact issue. I just believe they needed to flesh out the companions mechanically and do a better job of melding the great stories they wrote with the mechanics. They were so close, but stumbled at the finish line.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Good start, but I'd take it one step further and have their loyalty quests and affinity triggered from a mix of choices made in quests/dialogue chosen, as well as have them comment on places you go to, have your character bond through travelling together. Get rid of the really gamey way of building affinity (ie. jumping in and out of power armour, picking locks, taking chems etc.) and have positive affinity and negative affinity exist on two separate axis that don't interact. This way you can have moments where characters can love you a lot but also really hate you and express how conflicted they are, or draw hard lines with you on say, siding with a faction they see as wholly unredeemable. With just these two tweaks you'd have a really compelling companion system that'd actually get players invested.
As an aro/ace, something I liked about stardew valley was that it didn't force you get in a relationship at all. You can totally just opt to make friends with everybody in town and it never turns into romance if you don't deliberately make it happen
Tbf I can't really think of that many games that force your player avatar to have a romantic interest. Maybe Dragon's Dogma, though that game more or less decides for you who you pair up with at the end due to secretly tracking your affinity for a character.
@@glorious-free-timeIkr I played p4 and I hugged Rise to comfort her cause she was crying and I romanced her by accident I just went along with it cause I accidentally picked the fake relationship thing with Ai and failed to romance her.
@@glorious-free-timethe persona series take the lgbtq+ as a joke which really sucks, we almost had a possibility to romance yosuke in p4, i hope P3R will let you date anyone (expect ken bc wtf :/)
& you can still room w Krobus non-romantically :D
Yeah, that I like, but they unfortunately still show some hints of romantic interest before dating, depending on the character 😅
12:06
“Why is Ubisoft trying to heterosexualise me against my will” is the best sentence I have ever seen
TBF, that _does_ fit with how fashy/r@pey the upper management (alledgedly) is
@@spacekitten357 ???
@@spacekitten357to be clear, by "queerifying everyone else against their will", you're referring to an openly bisexual character existing in a video game? How dare those bisexuals *check notes* be represented in culture. Dumb shit that you wouldn't consider an issue if we were talking about heterosexuality, which has been the default relationship type in media from the beginning. Ya know, because of the homophobia.
@@spacekitten357 have you been queerified recently? How did it make you feel?
I can hear the developers at fable talking about it like
"Hey, are we gonna work on that thing about same-sex couples or what?"
and then a programmer with bags under his eyes while holding a cup of *very* strong coffee just replies
"no. let them be gay. I don't care" before turning back to his screen and continue working.
As a programmer, I can confirm, when I accidently "program" a feature that isn't supposed to be there, but is useful in some way or another, I'm like, "Eh, it works, who cares?"
@@kalvino3515 feature k(r)eep survey:
1 does it work?
2 does it break the user's system and/or the game?
3 keep it.
@@kalvino3515 lol, you recited the "it just works" video game meme but in different words
it’s funny, cause I think it’s the other way around. It would be far easier to make bisexuality the default. as in, developers have to put in extra effort specifically to check whether or not the characters are compatible based on their sexuality.
@@mattross4892 Gender already is a requirement because of gendered pronouns tho
File under "things I didn't know were unfair to bisexuals as a monosexual gay"
I was thinking the same thing lol
I’m pan, so honestly-
Yeah, we deal with such bullshit on the daily it can unfortunately be easy to forget that our Bi and Pan siblings have it rough too. Then my brother made a comment a couple months ago about a dating app matching him with bi girls and how he "doesn't have any desire to get with a woman that's going to be constantly cheating on him with other women". I had to sit him down and explain that bisexuality is not the same as polyamory OR being unfaithful. All it meant was she had a larger selection from which to choose a partner from. His mind was blown because it never occurred to him that a bisexual person wouldn't insist on having both at the same time. Thankfully it was just bigotry through ignorance and not malice and after a little education he started treating bi/pan girls the same way he was straight girls on there.
What's monosexual?
@@karenwantsmanager Bisexual means being attracted to both men and women, pansexual means being attracted to all expressions of gender, and monosexual is being only attracted to ONE gender, in this case, the same gender as the OP.
I never really thought about how hidden the bisexual mechanics are until I was talking about the game Bully with my friends, and I mentioned how you could make out with certain male characters, and none of them ever even heard about that being an option.
I personally like when everyone is playersexual or “bisexual” by default. I don’t mind when games try to dive deeper and make it more realistic by having set sexualities, but then you end up with stuff like Three Houses, with their *one* gay male romance option and a slew of bisexual women, none of which are strictly lesbians.
That's my take as well. Giving each character a strict sexuality is cool in theory, but in practice it just removes options that didn't need to be removed
@@rolandsquire6555 I wouldn't mind if it were a checkbox option at the start of the game. Sort of like the autonomy toggle in Sims. Simply just a switch you can flick called "Free Romance" with a description for what it does. Canon RP focused players could keep it disabled for the "intended" sexualities, while others could enable it to freely romance any of the companions.
I do like the idea of having characters of all sexualities in my games - it's not like sexuality is the only deciding factor in availability in many games. Sometimes your race (in fantasy terms), religion, background, choices etc. limit romance availability. But as you said it tends to feel limiting in regards to sexuality. Especially when the character you *want* to romance is off limits depending on the gender you decide to play as.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 But then your solution is also fan service. And one that limits what we see based on what X group is known to like, so it removes character diversity.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Yes and no. There's a wide variety of what women like as well. I've always had mixed feelings about ''gay men want men who look masculine'' because given the prevalence of masc for masc, it's true. On the other end, it's a product of gay culture. And then there's the part where some of us like fem boys. (I'm gay and amab and I love my men fem).
Also, I think a lot of what the media shows us in not so much what men, women, straight or gay people want as much as what the company thinks we want. So giving women what they actually want would probably imply more diversity that some of us conceptualize.
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Making Bi men doesn't mean you have to design them to appeal to women. Rolands point is that removing options that don't need to be removed is limiting. It doesn't say that men *must* be designed to appeal to both genders, but that the option for both genders to date him shouldn't be needlessly limited. If a woman sees a plus sized man who conceptually was made to appeal to gay men but still finds him attractive and wants to date him, she should have that option. That's the point.
We can have playersexual characters that are *still* made diverse. If studios use bisexuality as an excuse to not be diverse, that criticism lies with the studio, not the concept of 'playersexual' romance ideology. They shouldn't have to limit who is allowed to romance this npc to have a 'reason' to appeal to diversity, they should just be more diverse... and if they aren't willing to be diverse, it's probably because they didn't care in the first place and blaming the option of bisexual romance is just passing the buck
Regarding the polyamory stardew ending: there’s both a “good” and a “bad” ending! If you have a rabbits foot in your inventory when that cutscene happens, you get a more positive interaction between you and your partners
the rabbit's foot is a funny object in SV bc you're not actually harming an animal to get that, the rabbit in the coop just kind of randomly drops extra feet lol
How positive are we talking?
@@eloujtimereaver4504 Checking the wiki it almost entirely dodges the scene and replaces it with a different scene.
@@zeldafreak000 Is thaaat scene positive? And/or related?
@@eloujtimereaver4504 Not entirely sure. Wiki just says that there is a different scene depending on if it's with the bachelors or the bachelorettes. For bachelorettes it only shows a gossip session about Marnie and the Mayor's relationship instead. For bachelor's, it's apparently just a group pool session.
One of my favorite cases of bisexual representation is Alphys in Undertale. In the Mettaton quiz show section, which is amazing in it's own right, the final question is "who does Alphys have a crush on." The options include male, female, and ambiguous gender options, and every answer is considered correct.
she loves undyne in undertale and have a crush in asgore in deltarune
@@gagamer2145 she's crushing on Asgore in both games
@@Crimsalwaysawake and so is mad dummy, who crushes both on asgore and undyne too... I'm starting to see a pattern with bisexuality in undertale..
In the two times I played Undertale I picked " The unknown" and "Undyne" for the things she loves, so I always thought she was gay.
oh gosh, the world of opportunities that opened up for me as a lil eleven-year-old, playing sims and realizing you can have same sex relationships... then it got slammed shut for years by homophobic family & friends. sims has a lot of problems, but that always being an option meant a lot to me.
Religion-founded bigotry?
Reminds me of when I feel like I'm committing a crime whenever my sims are in a mlm/wlw relationships lol
I was so worried that Hades would be forgotten with the best and most rare poly ending - thank gods it made it in the end
That is the only unadulteratedly good news I have heard about dating in video games.
I rejected Meg because I don't like her and I don't like the thought of dating more than one person at a time myself, but it's great to hear about this poly route I haven't seen myself. Hades still surprises me with how good it is.
This is where I was always stuck on. I love having everyone be a potential bi-route. The self indulgence in me who hears “damn I never had feelings for a guy until I met you” tickles my ears in a fan fiction kinda way. But I think it’s important to write sexuality in a way where, you can have a closeted route, or a “Am I gay?” character, but also have characters who are very comfortable in their bisexuality too. It’s kind of why I liked DA: inquisitions look at giving their characters sexualities, it felt more genuine. But unga bunga brain still wanted Cullen since DA2 but now he’s programmed to be straight.
I think making everyone bi as a route gives more options to the player, and if you’re going to have no dialogue changes that’s cool I feel it’s the bare minimum. But also sprinkle in that openly bis character, and that closeted gay as well. I just want more flavor in my bi-romances
v
Straight male here, but if I'm playing a Bioware RPG or any similar type of game with multiple romance options of multiple genders, you can bet I'm going to flirt with anything with a pulse. Not about to leave content on the table. My charcter needs to heal every party member's emotional trauma, and if that means a roll in the sheets, so be it! They end up a saint with a savior/martyr complex with a defining flaw of struggling with monogamy.
Almost always end up picking a straight option when forced to choose except in Dragon Age 2. Anders was just too charming. And blowing up the chantry only made him more desirable.
Agree with the comment on Anders. In real life I'm very peaceful, but find myself wanting to blow up the chantry myself since the first Dragon Age.
Anders is best boi
@@samipeixoto4779
That whole confrontation scene afterward where he's worried that you hate him now and apologizing for having to lie to you to gwt him the bomb ingredients under false pretenses, I was all, "I just wish you would have told me sooner. I would have helped you make and place the bombs."
A true completionist.
It's not the Normandy, it's Shepard's Love Boat! If you're on the ship, you're under the sheets. Boy, girl, nonbinary alien; we're on a suicide mission here after all.
This is such a great analysis of bisexuality in gaming. I found myself having similar-ish thoughts with Assassin's Creed Odyssey. I played as a woman, and the whole thing felt ... just like a big so what. Like it all still felt so written for a straight man, that even when I was (exclusively) romancing women it /still/ managed to feel so hetero.
I feel the same with Saints Row 4. You can chose your gender and appearance, you can date anyone but the character feels very macho no matter how you play it. Because it's a pretty absurd game, I find it mostly funny, but it's not a super immersive RPG experience at all.
I've played a little of Valhalla where you can also pick which gender to play as, but I can't help but feel everything was written for a male character and they just made the woman an option to tick off an inclusivity box.
i call this a, "we have so many playable character options for you but only one script" moment
@@yell0w355 seriously, I I like to pretend my character is nonbinary because so often npcs refer to eivor ad man, and I choose to make that genderqueer instead of the game being obviously built for dude players. I like the game but that was treated poorly
@@queer-ios3155 Actually, I think that's intentional in Valhalla. Regardless of whether you pick male or female Eivor, there's a document late in the game that references "Eivor Varinsdottir", implying that Eivor is canonically biologically female either way. That the male Eivor is an in-game reflection of them having a transman gender identity.
The thing that always annoyed me about this is that it is incredibly rare for romanceable characters to have a defined sexuality. They were just attracted to whatever gender the player was. I found Dorian in DA3 to be refreshing, he and my female character were flirty and sassy with each other but his own sexuality was just never really a question.
Dorian is simply fabulous! Him and my fem inquisitor are best friends!
@@jojotheswede8444 Catty, flirty mage buddy is best buddy!!
Dorian was my favorite.
Quick tip! Stardew Valley wont shame you for dating every single person in the town if you have a Rabbit's Foot in your inventory before the cutscene!
?
@@youtubeuniversity3638 By keeping a Rabbit's Foot in your inventory after you've got 10 hearts with each love interest, instead of getting berated for flirting with all of them, they'll just have fun with each other, either through gossip or a pool game
good video
I didn't even realize that Leah's ex was supposed to be a woman :DD I just thought she was a long haired man back when I first played it
hahaha WHAT? I've only romanced her as a woman, so I always thought she was the super-healthy-environmentally-conscious-woodsy-carver stereotypical lesbian lol. I was surprised to find she ever dated a man!
Hi North 👋, didn't expect to see you here. Really like your content.
North here watching the quality content
Doesn't it change to match the player gender?
@@SanbaiSan SAME
I'm pretty sure the only character I've ever come across in a game (that I've played) that literally came out as bisexual or at least non-monosexual was The Iron Bull, and that dialogue happens regardless of romancing him.
And he and Dorian will get into a relationship if you bring them both along as companions enough and don't romance either of them.
@@WraithReaper09 their romance happens regardless of you having both of them in your party.
@@auberginebear wrong. My party always used to have Dorian but not Bull. Got the bi talk but i dont think i ever heard them even acknowledge each other
One thing I thought they could have improved on was that if your a guy and romance bull you instantly become the bottom. Just would have been nice for bull to say I only top or something so you can have your character be top vers or bottom.
Sera also explicitly tells you that she is not into men, if you flirt with her as a male character and will also end up with a NPC if you don't romance her! I don't remember who don't :')
Krem also talks about the fact that he is trans (and of course, Iron Bull is super chill about it and I LOVE it)
I'm polyamorous and I feel a little bullied by all these games shaming it over and over 😭
Jade Empire let you have a triad as lonh as you weren't an asshole.
Play Pathfinder Kingmaker. You can romance a couple if you play your cards right, Regongar and Octavia. In fact, one of the ways you start your romance with them is by agreeing with Regongar (the dude in the couple) that monogamy is trash lol.
@@presidenttogekiss635 unfortunately I'm not into that type of RPG tbh. It's probably too much to ask for representation in a game I actually *like*. 😐
same
What about crusaders kings 3? It's tiring but you can make an entire chunk of the world embrace polyamory as an accepted social norm
I haven't gotten through the video yet but I just love how Hades literally rewards you for dating both Megara and Thanatos as Zagreus. That's also a Poly win in my book.
Weird for hades to do
@@2lowfatmilk606 Oh to be clear I meant Hades the game LOL
Wait really?
@@itzplant3196 Yup! And there's no mention of any jealousy here and there to 'bring in the drama'. It's a consensual polyamory relarionship all around. And you have the choice too! Regardless of whom, you have the choice to end up either in a monogamous or poly relationship and neither character gets mad about it. So I think this is probably the best Bi rep ever.
Also best game mechanic is to be able to go fishing in the goddamn Styx as well as to pet Cerberus the big red three headed dog
@@deadinside9745 I've been playing recently and knowing I can romance actually makes me love it even more :D
This is why i love Monster Prom. It has the best of both words, every character is bi but its not really all that selective, many character will express their fondness for both genders (my favorite being the interdimensional prince literally so desperate for any spouse he's tricking anyone and everyone into signing marriage papers 💀i love him)
Additionally, Boyfriend from FNF is canonically bisexual, it's not hidden or there to satisfy the player, its just there to describe BF as a person, and i really appreciate that.
...I am quite sleep deprived and I misread "prom" as, uh, something else like 12 times before I finally got it right ahahahah
@@GigaGhostYT Wait really?!
@@kaitlyn__L 💀
Plus, you have characters like Damien, who admits to having crushed on both Hope and Cool Josh in the 2nd game
I will say, it’s not really as simple as “one guy made Stardew Valley and you can too!”, it took him over 5 years to make the game and was very fortunate to have a girlfriend who was willing to financially support the two of them as well as having parents who allowed them to stay at their house rent-free. Video games are hard work and yes, you totally can make a great game as a solo dev, but it’s a long and difficult process so make sure you know what you’re getting yourself into and temper the expectations for yourself so as to not collapse under your own pressure.
Facts
No one is truly "self made"
Yes, exactly true. The lesser known details of the "single-person success story"
@@SeanLaMontagne Yes! Exactly, at it's most fundamental "self-made" millionaires wouldn't be millionaires without the public buying into their idea or product and paying them for it. We are all the aggregate of the people around us; who looked after us as children (or in somecases sadly don't look after us), who we grew up with (parents, siblings, neighbours, teachers, school friends, work friends, colleagues etc), where we grew up, how we were raised etc all of which is what ultimately makes us completely unique. If we could prove it I can all but guarantee that if you removed one or two significant figures from a "self-made" millionaire's life they would not be millionaires at all because it was those influences which made them into the person they were that helped make their idea profitable. The point being that without the external influence they wouldn't be "self-made" millionaires at all.
@@notthechosen1 Everyone knows that, including people who describe themselves or others as "self-made". It's meant to contrast to people whose success involved far less work or skill on their own part (e.g. millionaries who were handed their wealth by their millionarie parents).
i’m very glad you mentioned Boyfriend Dungeon because not only can you be bi, not only can you be polyamorous, but you can also be nonbinary AND you have TWO romancable nonbinary options
The sims 4 recently had an update where they allow the player to set their sim to have a sexual orientation, so you can canonically make a sim who is gay, straight, bisexual, or asexual. I wouldn't recommend even opening the game at the moment because it is extremely full of bugs, but maybe at some point you could look at that and see how it is different from the old mechanical bisexuality.
As a game writer who worked in lgbt+ romance genres: YES. Actual rep is a whole mess, I was allowed to write about non-binary and asexual main characters but OH BOY characters ACTING ON IT considered so confusing for the gamers™ like it would affect sells in the queer community-
I will never understand why it's considered confusing to be ace or nonbinary when a lot of us ourselves were never even confused about being either of those things.
I knew from a very young age that I'm not a boy and not a girl, I didn't have the right words for it but it never confused me at all.
I also always knew that I was definitely different when it comes to romantic and sexual attraction and I felt some distress over this only because I was told I was weird when everyone else started falling in love and dating as teens and I just wasn't that interested. We are not confusing people just don't want to educate themselves about things that are outside of their own experience.
Our existence really isn't that hard to understand, I was easily able to explain my experience to my nephew and nieces when they were still pretty damn young and they understood it just fine.
But like
It's not even confusing? I'm nb but I'm not ace, but I understood the defintion of ace in a single sentence
Sometimes it is confusing though... primarily because it's never talked about . I still don't know if I'm nonbinary (I don't particularly like being called by gendered terms but I don't think I can do anything about it because no one will listen if I tell them not to call me she. I'm afraid it would confuse people if I try to assert myself about it but wish I was brave enough to argue for it ) as for being ace I didn't know it was a thing until I was thirty. I just thought there was something wrong with me because I wasn't interested in relationships, or sex when I was in a relationship. And my neighbor still ridicules me for not having a boyfriend or husband at my age (she's over seventy but it still gets under my skin)...
I kinda wish "representation " about gender and asexuality were a bit more common. Maybe then I would have had the terms and understanding to realize why the "normal" things made me uncomfortable.
@@Illustrioustaco for the rep problem - yes, we lgbtq+ people (as well as other minorities) aren't as widely represented as straight/cis people, that's a known fact. But, if you look in the right place and actively search for it, you will find decent representation in quite a lot of places! Tell me, what sort of things are you interested in (action movies, videogames, anime, paintings, etc etc), and I'll see if I can recommend some things.
@@IATEALLTHECHEESE thank you for the offer, I appreciate it but I don't have it in me for new media at this time, and I know how to look for it now. Which is what I was trying to get at, that some people (like younger me) don't know to look for in the first place. The internet makes it a lot easier but mainstream, positive acknowledgement would do wonders.
I feel like it is fun for games to use "Cheater" status IF they had an option of consentual polyamorous relationships in the first place.
Especially in a case like Sims where it's absolutely possible to make a healthy poly household. But the only way to do it without mods is to avoid official relationship status altogether and then you still have the "casanova" type achievements. Even with mods there's no easy way to make a closed poly relationship that rejects flirtation outside recognized individuals.
The sims 4 version of tht is by completing the “serial romantic” aspiration. Giving you a trait where your partners will nvr get jealous, even if you kiss someone else in front of them.
Loved this video essay. I have to say though, (since I'm obsessed with LiS) Max does have undeniable feelings for Chloe. No matter what choice you make (not kissing her/kissing her) she writes in her diary "Chloe is more than my best friend" and goes on to say she may love her. But again, this is something the player could just not see. (I think its nice to add it's the only LiS game that will let you romance both love interests.) One of the writers have even stated if you don't pick a romance path with her, they still wanted the player to interpret romance since the romance between the two of them in the story is "deeper and worthwhile". So, it's not necessarily completely avoidable, you just see a lot less of it. I also believe them not being explicit about their relationship goes a little bit deeper than that, the game being set in 2013, both of them still being very young, and the setting of Arcadia bay. Plus, I've always interpreted the condoms as just another thing Chloe uses to piss her parents off, since they mention a boy toy phase. But mentions to Max that boys are gross, says that Rachel saved her from men when Max asked if she has a boyfriend, and the Jefferson thing I always saw as her teasing Max since she knows that Max thinks he's attractive. Just my two cents. I think it goes into the theme of discovering yourself but I could be reading to much into it. TLOU2 I think is one that does an amazing job.
I know this is a super late reply to this comment but I was watching the video and heard her talking about the bisexuality aspect of LiS and had to see if someone else had made a comment on it. I definitely agree that Max can definitely be read as bi even if you decide to romance Warren or not explicitly explore a relationship with Chloe. I also interpreted the nightmare scene as Max fighting her own inner thoughts towards her actions, as shown in the rest of the scene. It's supposed to be her insecurities brought to the fore and one of her insecurities is that she is a newly bi person who is struggling with the idea that she can be attracted to two people of different genders at the same time. Thanks for putting what I was thinking in probably better words than I could. I just had to reply when I say your comment.
Have I played any of these games?
no
Will I still watch this hour long video about them?
Of course
With Life Is Strange: True Colors coming out next week, I am very curious to see if the main character is canon bi regardless of which romance option you choose or don't choose.
Cross our fingers
At the very least the female love interest is lesbian regardless of what you choose, Steph was noted to be a lesbian (and crushing on Rachel) in Before the Storm after all.
also if you Google it Max is canonically bisexual :)
@@planymphia exactly what I was gonna comment. Even if you choose to not kiss Chloe, Max’s still write in her journal something about wanting to kiss Chloe or something of the sort lol
I’m so excited for true colors
this is such a fantastic video. really well researched and eye opening as someone who has been around video games for so long. definitely gonna change the way i see certain things.
also explains why in the MinnMax community there was such a spirited debate over whether Max and Chloe's relationship was romantic!
I wish we had games where we can live out our polyamorous bisexual dreams without having to cheat on our partners behind their back or get shamed by the game for being polyamorous.
ikr, tho one does exist for that, later daters is poly-amorous bisexual dream game gold
It's not as if they do it for the sake of it , if we take stardew valey, it's just not possible to have the 479 001 600 differents outcomes written, and any limit on how many you can date/marry would feel arbitrary and left out some players, the other solutions would mean marrying multiple NPC without them interacting to each others, or with ass generics answer/event that are just gonna break characters...
Another problem, you have to handle each NPC reaction to you flirting with them when you're single, when you're openly engaged in a single relationship, and when you're openly engaged in a polyamorous relationshit, all of that at any point of your relationship.
So yeah, probably not gonna happen any time soon.
POV the first thing you do for your sim is to type the cheat to get the Player trait or complete the Serial Romantic aspiration for it
Hell yes!
You can do this in the Sims 4 with mods
One thing I find super interesting about this is how it illustrates a recent reassessment of how the biological sciences view sexuality! Basically, researcher bias has long caused biologists to treat heterosexuality as the "default" or null hypothesis in animal behavior, but recent work has pointed out that -- from a truly objective evolutionary point of view -- indiscriminate sexuality (in human society read: bisexuality) is actually the most evolutionarily likely behavior! Not only is it the ancestral state for all animal life, it's also the least costly behavioral state for an animal trying to pass on its genes! Heterosexuality tends to require some very specific scenarios and much more time to evolve.
And that's kind of what's happening in these games? Bisexuality is a default state because it's the least costly and least specific option for game developers to create. If devs want to create heterosexuality they have to do much more work and manually specify, by the process of elimination, what romance options are off the table. IMO a great illustration of the concept that heterosexuality is an elaborate special case, not the default.
@@neeeeves S-S-So-Sources???
*in a TH-cam comment???*
@@SamuelSamuelSamuel1 Yeah, what gives? The source is supposed to be "trust me bro."
@@wareforcoin5780 no it’s just rare to see a well educated person who understands how sources work 💀
From now on I'm referring to bisexuality as "indiscriminate sexuality". Thank you ^^
@@SamuelSamuelSamuel1
Unfortunately, it's locked behind a very expensive paywall ☹️ Looked real good too...
I know Liara isn't presented as explicitedly bi unless you look for it, but she was my first wlw character I romanced in any game ever and was instrumental in helping me come to terms with my bisexuality. And for a game that first released in 2007, back when gay marriage wasn't even legalized in the States yet, I thought it was mindblowing at the time that you could even have a relationship with her as a woman and how much content there was compared to, say, any relationship in Skyrim. Even now, Liara's romance throughout the Mass Effect trilogy remains my favourite because of how in-depth it was. It wasn't just getting together, a kiss, and then an achievement. You had to work for it, especially in Mass Effect 2. There was drama, emotional stakes, difficult feelings both of you had to work through. She wasn't just a romance option, but her own character who had grown independant of you. It felt real.
there are actually ways to play as a polyamorous character in the sims 4 without the game judging you for it. by completing the serial romantic aspiration (or just cheating it in) you receive the "player" trait that stops other sims from getting jealous or reacting negatively when your sim performs romantic actions with other sims. The same thing seems to apply with the "free love" neighbourhood action plan from the eco lifestyle expansion; and since you can have multiple partners at once you can canonically create the polyamorous neighbourhood of your dreams without your game shaming you for it (you just can't marry all of your partners)
YES! And if you have the ability of mods the experience can be even better.
There is the issue that until you get that trait, you’re considered as cheating on all your partners (especially since one of the objectives of the aspiration is to have multiple romantic partners). But, on PC, you can use cheats to give you the “player” trait even if you haven’t finished the serial romantic aspiration, so that way you don’t have to cheat to get the trait.
THERES A FREE LOVE NEUGHBORHOOD ACTION PLAN
HOLY SHIT I GOTTA GO LOOK FOR IT
@@ChestersonJack Yeah, in Eco Lifestyle.
I wanna see more games where you're gender neutral by default. As in they don't ask you your pronouns, or force you to take a side, any gender representation is purely about things you can change in game like hair, clothes and shit. It's easier to permit bisexuality when the players Gender isn't as hard coded as binary.
There's an older game called Verdant Skies - on Steam where you don't pick a gender and everyone is available as a romance. There's are trans and NB characters too (I won't spoil it). You farm to set up a colony in space and explore. It's not really that complex from what I remember but it's charming enough.
New World gives you a choice of body type at character creation, the word gender or sex is not used. You can choose pronouns when selecting a title... Of course, being a pvp based MMO it's not a game in which romances occur. Just a nice thing they did... stealthy enough that it seems no one has noticed.
I was so excited when I started Forza Horizon 5 and I saw they actually let you choose if the game uses she/her, he/him, or they/them pronouns for you, fully voice acted. And in addition to that, your name is also fully voice acted as long as it's from a list of what looks like a few hundred to 1000 names and nicknames. The only thing I didn't like about the setup experience is that it defaults to your first name in your Microsoft account and unfortunately I've not been able to update that yet.
the game "monster prom" actually kind of achieves this in my opinion. there are four character models you can choose to play as, two of them would be seen as women (as in, in an older game they'd be the "female options) and two of them would be seen as men. but you can choose your pronouns (options are he, she and they) and name regardless of what you look like. you don't even have to choose a gender, only what you wanna look like and what you want as your pronouns. and the game doesn't change depending on your looks and pronouns. it's a short simulator romance game where you can choose to date one of the characters (the goal is to take them to prom), but it's not like the dialogue for the girl characters changes when you use she/her pronouns. because there's no option to choose gender, your character doesn't actually have one in the game. you can just imagine that you're playing as a nonbinary person with he/him pronouns, or a trans woman with they/them pronouns, but the game is just focused on what you want to be called. it honestly feels refreshing for a romance/teen simulator game, since those are usually so informed by gender. h
Undertale and Deltarune are good for that
Zevran and Leliana are the best things I've ever seen in a video game tbh. They both have a male and female love interest respectively in their backstories. Leliana talks about being bi and Zevran hits on you no matter what you're playing as. Also if you max out his approval you meet his ex boyfriend even if you aren't romancing him.
The only thing I hate is that there's no way to nicely turn zevran down if you're playing as a man and don't want to romance him when he inevitably hits in you. It's all "I'm uncomfortable you made me uncomfortable with your gay gay words" and [threat] "NEVER SAY THAT TO ME AGAIN"
Yeeaahhh...DAO wasn't perfect to say the least. Another egregious example is at one point the game gives a male protag the option of confessing to Oghren that he has a crush on Oghren. To which Oghren *immediately* gets defensive and responds with a homophobic rejection. I was like, "OK...all my respect for this character has just immediately evaporated and I'll never be using the likes of *him* in my party ever again."
@@opo3628 I mean... that's Oghren. He's a gross edgy manbaby with really sh!tty opinions. An incel in every way but celibacy.
I've always felt somewhat uncomfortable about romance options in RPGs because they always wind up feeling very transactional. Like, it's kind-of inevitable due to the way game mechanics work, but the message of "Just choose a person from a list of romance options and then give them items/say vaguely nice or flirty things and they will inevitably fall in love with you" just feels very gross.
i played a text-based game once about this very concept! i dont remember the name but it was about a group of game devs on a company trip to a like tourist resort on the moon, lots of in-game very meta conversations with the potential love interests about whether or not game characters can actually consent, because the player can just replay the game and say the "right" things even if rejected. was interesting!
Yeah, I see what you mean. Even games I consider to have done it right, suffer from the same mentality.
I've always looked at it from a realism perspective. Attraction can of course be instantaneous, you see somebody across the room and are immediately attracted to her/him, that's very normal, but it usually takes many hours, if not days, of "dialogue choices" before you end up in bed together. The idea that you can, in a video game, walk up to an NPC, proposition her with a few choice words, and, in less than five minutes later, the screen "fades to black" just seems like the introductory plot of a porn movie.
I think a game like The Witcher 3 did it better than most other games purely because Geralt had a "sorta-relationship" with both Triss and Yennefer that was already established prior to the beginning of the game, but the game still suffers from the same transactional nature. I think it's unavoidable simply because of how games work, but it seems somewhat more realistic in Witcher 3 than it does in, well, practically any other game out there, imo.
Fallout 4 is an example of how not to do it, I think. Yeah, you have to spend a lot of time roaming the Wasteland with your companion making the kind of choices that you think that particular character will like--btw, how is this, mechanically speaking, any different from giving them gifts?--but the actual "wooing" part comes down to, I dunno, maybe 4 dialogue choices per companion.
Then there's a game like Red Dead Redemption 2, that just didn't do it. Having played so many RPG's, I, on several occasions, expected to have the option, but nothing ever happens. All his relationships are complicated, and ultimately unfruitful because of the kind of life that he leads and I think the game's better and more believable for it.
@@Boomerrage32 Yeah, I think there are probably a few good ways to do it, and most of them would involve not focusing so much on the initial stages of romance and not giving a plethora of options. Like, I think you could have a pretty good romance element in a game if you were together with someone at the start of the game, you supported each other in various ways throughout the game and either there's no option to end it or if you can and do break it off, there's no option for another romance within the game. That way you don't have to gamify falling for each other - it happened off-screen and you don't have to speed up developing deep bonds - they're already there. Plus, you have more time to develop the connection because it can be assumed to be present in the writing throughout the whole game
It would be a lot more similar to watching a movie with a romance element. The player doesn't need to have control over this.
That said, I also think this part isn't just a video game thing. All our media, especially more genre stuff, obsesses over the initial stages of romance way to much. When was the last time you read, say, a fantasy novel where the protagonist was in a moderately healthy relationship when the series started, interacted with their partner throughout the series and was still together with them when the series ended?
Having a central romantic arc between two NPCs that the protagonist is supporting might also be a decent way of sidestepping this.
P.S. That's cool to hear about RDR2. I haven't played it - I tend to have a hard time processing what's going on in shooters - but I might have to try it out.
OMG is that where "nice guys" get it from?
@@santagonewrong Funnily enough, Fallout 4 came very close to the scenario that you explained. In the beginning, you have a spouse. Just really sad that the spouse ends up dead within the first 10 minutes after you've completed your character. I think it could've been an interesting story if it was about how you, your significant other, and your baby boy learned how to deal with the Wasteland as a family coming from a time before the bombs fell. Instead, we got this shitty Bethesda story... thanks, guys, I hate it!
This necessitates that the developers make some choices for you because your spouse will need an identity and a personality. If it's a white heterosexual couple then it's probably fine for a very large section of the playerbase, but what if it's an interracial couple? Or a gay couple? Would you still be fine with it? The point is that such a story would not necessarily have the same mass appeal, even if it ultimately comes off as more believable and more authentic than a story with elements of courtship.
The developers could include a level of choice by making a few characters of either sex for your spouse and letting the player select one of them. This is probably the best solution, but it is also more resource intensive and, therefore, might not always be financially possible. I think most AAA game developers could pull it off though. It's a good idea and it could lead to some new and interesting stories that we don't often see.
The FO4 wife being a stay at home mom bothered me so much. It would have been so easy for them to just say that she was the military wife and the husband was the stay at home dad if you chose her as your PC. Especially when without this change so much of the characters dialogue makes no sense. Especially in the intro sequence when you start using power armour despite having no reason to use it. It would have been such an easy fix!
@@fenrisvermundr2516 Yeah, I knew that. Stay-at-home wasn't the correct phrase but my point remains the same.
Or just they were both military people. Boom! One change and everything makes sense.
Nora was a lawyer. I don't understand your problem
@@damiendemers7495 her lawyer background dosent make any sense to why she understands how to work power armor without any training. Or any of her millitary prowess in the game if chose.
@@chandlerlee3946 I mean you could argue that Nate took her on a tour of a military base one time and taught her some of the basics... but it’s still just a flimsy headcanon I came up with on the spot so it probably won’t withstand scrutiny.
it was really interesting to hear about this from a bisexual perspective! as a lesbian i’ve always been frustrated by “playersexuality” bc to me it’s always felt like the desire to not exclude straight men has made it difficult or impossible to have canonically lesbian characters in romance games-and having all of the characters be either straight or bi but not gay in cases of particularly large casts like in fire emblem: three houses seems to imply that gay men and lesbians just don’t exist-but i hadn’t considered that most of these games don’t really treat their bisexual characters /as bi/ either. it’s just kind of frustrating all around.
i think the one instance off-hand i can remember of canonically gay/lesbian characters as romance options in a game where the protagonist’s gender is left up to the player is dragon age: inquisition.
i would argue that isabela in dragon age 2 does fit the bill for canonically bisexual and not just mechanically so though - she references sleeping with and having relationships with men even if you’re playing a woman, and if i remember correctly she flirts with merrill if you’re paying a man.
iron bull also references attraction to women regardless of the player’s gender and flirts with (and can have a relationship with) dorian, but if you romance him with a woman i don’t think you’d ever seen evidence of his attraction to men, so he…might not count either.
regardless, what you said about “mechanical bisexuality” summed up a lot of my own feelings about it as well. i appreciate you sharing your perspective on this. ❤️
That's what I always found frustrating about the community discourse for games like FE: 3H and other JRPGs. No one is really winning but everyone has a stake in the ground. Rather than zooming out and realizing how we're all being cheated, it becomes a defensive argument between individual queer people. All for games that are ultimately hostile to us anyways.
Like for three houses specifically, even though it offers more "canonical" queer romances than the series previously, it does a much worse job at writing queerness (and makes queerphobia jokes at times to boot) than previous entries in the series that had to rely on subtext.
The straight gaze is always palpable and it's extremely obvious with the disparity in playersexual women to playersexual men. But when that's the best thing anyone's ever seen, it's grounds to get defensive over any critique.
I think the worst part is is that even in the pretty mid array of representation that video games offer... There's still way better options than JRPGs that added dating sim functions to cash in on a wider cishet demographic.
I know this comment is like a year old but whatever. Fire Emblem is an interesting case cause 3H aside characters who are bi or otherwise queer coded are treated as such a majority of the time. One example I’ve been thinking of is Severa in Fire Emblem awakening who explicitly shows both romantic and sexual interest in both men and women even though mechanically she can only ever marry male characters but in her supports with kjelle she explicitly does heavily imply she isn’t opposed to sexual attraction towards another woman. Not only that but the developers go out of their way to push a sort of yuri or lesbian ship with them in dlc and supplementary material. But Severa also show’s explicit romantic and sexual attraction to men as well through fluff dialogue and her many supports with male characters.
She’s not the only character like that either. Awakening has quite a few bi coded characters in Maribelle, Sumia, Chrom, and Inigo as well. Even more if you take into account dlc conversations. The FE series on the whole tackles “bi as a mechanic” with a little more nuance than other games do
Omg that comment about fire emblem hit HARD. Its so frustrating, quit appealing to the straight men Please
Gotta go for games that are more mature about their storytelling fam. Cyberpunk 2077 has four romance options, straight man and woman, and a gay man and woman, strictly so. CDPR wasn't afraid to have those characters shoot the player down (gently) for flirting with them either. (And the acting is good enough too that if you misstep you feel shitty. And if you turn someone down you also feel shitty.)
Honestly it's the better for it too. Everyone being bi is painfully boring.
I liked Anders in DA2 very much because you only find out he was in a relationship with a guy once he had to mercy kill his lover after the ritual of tranquility. Still bi and romancable as female Hawke regardless after some time he needs to heal form his loss.
I love Anders even if he does big stupid in the endgame.
I have an idea. I'm not sure if this'll work, but there may be a way to force stardew valley to make Leah visibly bi. And you'd be doing it in the most queer way possible: by making YOUR character trans. If you change your character's gender, (which you can do at the shrine of illusions) you also change the gender of Leah's ex. I'm not entirely up to speed on Leah's events, but assuming her ex is mentioned more than once, you may be able to cause her to talk about how she was with a man, and then get her to talk about how she was with a woman.
The bissexual Konami code
Life is Strange: True Colors, the most recent addition to the series, features canonically bi protagonist Alex Chen. Her text history hints at relationships with both men and women, and when Steph, a lesbian, asks Alex if she's into girls, the player has 3 options: Yes, Both, No. If you choose no, Alex still clarifies that she's MOSTLY dated guys.
Also, the game does make you choose between the male or female characters, but Alex mentions they're both options. RIP no polyamory tho.
Did you choose Ryan or Steph?
@@WingedGirlV oh Steph of course haha
@@shortazn97 I went with Ryan 😂 he is so cute
@@WingedGirlV ryan is great! If i liked men he would be a great option. Alas, i am a lesbian 😅
@@shortazn97 I assumed you were bi 😂 sorry!
As a bisexual, I’m happy about this becoming a thing. In Harvest Moon they’ve yet to do this still which is why I left it behind for the most part for Stardew Valley.
actually, they have, depending on what you count as harvest moon! the games titled harvest moon don’t have this option, but the games made by the original harvest moon team (and still titled as such in Japan) are called story of seasons and do include same sex options, and the ability to be non binary in the newest game!
@@Mar-di9yd And there's rune factory 5!
@@connortodd4538 I will say, having played a LOT of RF5, the option was added in during the English localization of the game (Japan got it via a patch first before the English version released) and it kinda shows in certain places for better or worse, with the sleepover events with the same gender romance options being the most obvious cause they don't change at all. That being said, I love the game and I'm so happy it's there at all without having to use the (visually) gender swap bonus option after clearing the game.
For its flaws and mistakes of the devs, The Arcana is pretty great in that all the romance-able characters are mechanically and canonically bisexual and all seem to be crushing on each other to various extents (minus the siblings of course)- and the devs are currently working on poly routes which is really cool!
Lunaris Games has several VNs that include bi romanceable characters with poly and ace routes if you so choose.
I would love poly routes for games
I adore Dragon Age when it comes to this stuff. Leliana is expressive about being bisexual from what I remember, and that's from 2009! There's a lot more romances but I just like how Leliana handled it,, because no matter if you're straight female player or not, she'll almost always express her attraction to you 😭
Apparently many straight female players have unintentionally triggered the Leliana romance because the dialogue you choose to trigger it is a little bit ambiguous, so you might not realize you're romancing her until the scene where she confesses that she's in love with you.
Edit: also, regardless of your gender or whether you romance her, her personal quest involves confronting her ex girlfriend.
@@snowpocalypse69 LMFAO I LOVE THAT
Same with Zevran! And Zevran is the best bissexual for me! He will always express interest. You can even have a foursome with him, Leliana, you and another character if you make the right choices!
I love a game called Unpacking, firstly because I love me a good organizing game, but also because the game silently reveals a heartfelt story of the main character through their belongings and the places that they move into. In the game you find out that the character is bisexual, Jewish and disabled. It's a pretty simple game with so much representation and tiny wholesome details that you can read into as you go on.
It’s like the famous saying goes, “I’m playing both sides, so that I always come out on top.” 🙌💖💜💙
Or get rejected by bolth :(
@@duckfilms3662 we are bi ourselves 😔
@@chloesantos8637 lmao F
Concerning ancient greece: as long as you were rich enough you could have very well been a mostly homoerotic greek MAN who has a wife-slave you could force yourself on to get offspring and make sweet sweet love with your male love of your life. The "default" in ancient greece was bisexual greek male citizen and depending on the city a woman's life was sometimes worth less than a sturdy ox.
Even sparta, who valued their women would not consider them equal to men.
"Leah loves salad. Here's me, standing outside her house every day. Waiting... Let her come outside. So that I can feed her a salad the size of my own head. Until she falls in love with me. SHE HAS NO CHOICE BUT TO FALL IN LOVE WITH ME" - (16:44) I HOWLED, this is very much representative of my ST experience :"D
Am I the only person who just about spat my coffee across the room and died laughing at, "here I am standing outside Leah's house waiting to give her a salad the size of my head to make her fall in love with me."
Definitely subscribing! Loved the video for more than just that part that made me laugh! ☺️❤️👍
no u r not lol
((not the only one))
Kaidan’s “resists slur” reaction to Fem Shep liking Liara is what made me dislike him.
+
Same here, and because I rarely not romance Liara (and because I played through ME1 for a total of like...3 times? where I just kept importing those 3 saves to ME2 instead of playing ME1 again), I really did not get how anyone can actually like Kaidan?
Then...what was it, a year or so ago? I got gay romance mod for ME1 that swapped roles of Ash and Kaidan, and holy shit, that was such a wildly different experience of those two characters. To the point where I found myself asking why did they feel the need to...do all that.
ashely and kaidan can go jump into the galactic core. honestly i like carver from DA2 more than either of them.
Kaidan’s casual homophobia and Ashley’s casual xenophobia in ME1 really made it hard to choose who I cared for less
@@xSaraxMxNeffx on my first playthrough of ME1 I was so creeped out by Kaidan that I just had to nuke him. I made an explicit point to never take Ashley on any mission. She was perma-grounded because of her xenophobic crap. On subsequent playthroughs they took turns being nuked and being blanked.
Things are not as bad as they seem. When I was a kid, there was very little LGBT+ representation in any media. When I first became aware of it, it was always in the context of AIDS. Patient and often courageous demonstration and advocacy has made a world where even computer games see the value in creating LGBT+ content and representation. You are absolutely right that we are not 'there' yet and you are absolutely right to be passionately advocating proper LGBT+ representation. It's how progress will continue to be made. Just don't be disheartened by an apparent lack of progress. It's an awful cliche, but these things take time. When I was your age I was fighting for the equalization of the age of consent. 20 years later (an unfathomable gulf of time to me back then) we have same sex marriage and are fighting for proper representation in gaming. Thanks to people like you we have won and are winning these battles, so keep it up! (and try not to be discouraged by the pandering - it's a step in the right direction. Appealing to the 'pink pound' paved the way to many awesome things!)
I hadn’t even realized how these game perpetuate biphobia. Some only make it available through promiscuity and some villify it. Smh
Personally I wouldn't use biphobia i'd use misrepresentation
Of course not for all of them
Not exactly, is more a technical issue than actual biphobia.
In most cases people hasn't figure out how to write bisexual characters in videogames yet, and how such relationships would work out without getting messy, like accidently making you date a character you don't wanted in the first place because they have higher relationship values than the NPC you actually want to date.
At best most developers would rather do the easier route of making every NPC "playersexual" since that saves money and time for other stuff.
Would like to mention that the Wicked Whims mod in the sims 4 allows you to choose your sims' sexual attractions and behaviors including polyamory
But even that categorisation has strong connotations
@@carpevinum8645 not only that but the fact that the official developers of the game didn't think to include attraction traits within the game beforehand. As wicked whims is custom content created by other players. It sucks that in order to make the game more realistically playable you have to risk crashing your game
There's also the "Wonderful Whims" mod; it keeps the attractions & behaviours (and stuff like birth control), without the extended sex-related settings / animations, if you don't want those. It's made by the same person too.
It's not /better/ than the original game just giving you an option to,, be bisexual and / or poly without being a shitty person, but it's a cool option still.
Mc commands has this too
@@IrisGlowingBlue It's also better for me, a sex-repulsed asexual.
I'm not used to defending sims 4. Usually if I talk about it I'm on a rant about how bug-ridden the code is. But historically the game didn't have orientation and everyone was pan, until the orientations update. Now, every teen and adult sim can be attracted to men, women, both, or neither, as part of their gender and orientation settings. Their sexual and romantic interests can be different to each other. And the several settings that make up their gender identity can make someone very convincingly trans. They also have the option for customised pronouns.
The game doesn't handle polyamory well. In fact it handles it extremely badly. But gender and orientation it does do pretty well. And even if the player chooses to be exclusively heterosexual, there are several same-sex couples in the various DLC that are just there, whether you engage with them or not.
Since you brought up mobile games: my favorite Choices story is Perfect Match, where there are 6 total love interests, and you can date them all as an open relationship, and one is already canonically polyamorous and mentions a genderqueer partner. Even if you at first express wanting to be monogamous, you can change your mind and talk to your first partner, who is completely supportive. I dated everyone you have at endgame and at the end of the story each say how they love and support you in your polyamory. They don't date each other, but they're all best friends and there's a really cute scene you get if you date them all. You can also choose to date no one and the friendships are so deep and lovely regardless, so it just deconstructs the monogamous ideal of the perfect match. It's two books and I really want to play it again :)
Yess, this was absolutely one of the best Choices stories!
Shame the polyamory has been one of the mechanics PB seems to have used once and then dropped, same with aromantic option and non-binary pronouns,,,
And then there's the 'poly' scene in Wolf Bride between two siblings. Tjr writing has been on a downright tumble for a while,,
@@rexberkova7328 there were non binary pronouns in one of their stories?
@@shemesh9687 @Nogah Bannett Yeps, in Foreign Affairs! You are still locked into body types and dresses of the usual male/female model but it's definitely a plus. Shame it was so short lived.
There is also a non-binary side character in one of the High School story books! That book is also a tasty treat when you just want some relax and fun times. The fact that they also allow you to be a Cheerleader if you're male and participace not-gender-split footbal team if you're a woman? Pretty groundbreaking back then, atleast to me.
UGH I fvcking LOVE that game!
I remember being really disappointed when I heard that you couldn't be polyamorous in Stardew without cheating. I tried to find a mod to change that and couldn't. And then I just...Didn't really want to play anymore after that point. Because the scene where you're confronted about it, which I had seen screenshots of, just seems so mean spirited? There's no option to try and negotiate a polyamorous setup, and when you do roleplay it out regardless the game just shames you for it even though you never had a chance to be not shit about it. The closest I can ever get to the kind of relationship I have in real life is being a cheater and that just doesn't feel great. I just kind of want to be able to be polyamorous in a game and like. Have it be a good thing where people talk and consent and are fine with things? And I'd really like to be able to see like metamours in games. Or in anything really.
If you’re interested in modding then I would recommend the multiple spouses mod! Ive also found a mod with 8 heaty and 10 heart cutscenes for dating Sebastian and Abigail specifically. I can’t really speak for the quality of these mods as I’m just playing the vanilla game
Even with the existence of these mods it’s terrible that one would have to alter a game to feel represented in it, I’m also really hoping we find games with more polyamory options in the future :(
*Spoiler*
If you have a lucky rabbit's foot when you trigger the group 10 heart event instead of a negative event it's a postive one. Like for the guys they all play billards
@@lexirogers1389 Yeah I remembering hearing that it was added in an update and just being. Disappointed that that was added? Like why add that? It just feels bad.
@@leviahgreen-wells7413 Oh there's a mod for it now? Oooh. When I had looked I wasn't able to find one. So it's good to hear that there is a mod for that now...I will definitely look into that because I do like the game. It just kind of sucks to not only not be included but to be actively shunned by the game.
And yeah I hope there are more games with polyamory options in the future! I've learned through the notes on this video that apparently there is polyamory in Pathfinder: Kingmaker. Which is really cool to hear about. And like...There's bi people making bi characters in games, so I figure at some point polyamorous people will make polyamorous characters in games at some point too.
@@jasonbolding3481 This I didn't know about at all. I just knew about the negative event that had been added.
5:51 In stardew valley George actually had a line of homophonic dialogue if you marry Alex, “How can two men get married? It’s unnatural… Hmph I guess I’m just old fashioned”
if you befriended George he actually states that while he doesn't get it, he sees that Alex is happy so he's happy with it or something like that I haven't romanced Alex before
@@BucketsGaming23 who would tbh
A bi mechanic is really a "gay OR straight" mechanic since you usually have to choose one "real" partner to marry. It's weird that in games, marriage similar to Western culture's idea of marriage exists but without much reference to Christianity, which is where the Western idea of marriage comes from. I'd really prefer a game that does not impose marriage on the player. It's a patriarchal, religious institution that to me has more to do with taxes than love. More polyamory options should also be available but I understand how difficult they are to program/write.
Choosing one partner still doesn't make someone not bisexual though. Maybe bisexual people irl do get married to just one partner, and that doesn't make them any less bisexual.
now that i dont see in games, imposing marriage, every game that i played that has marriage, the marriage is totally optional, but you are right in how most games impose monogamy
@@devforfun5618 I mean if you want to have a "complete" relationship at all, you have to marry someone, in Stardew and Skyrim and so on.
Umm... Bi people can and do get married... And are capable of being happily monogamous
As someone who has worked on many games, removing polyamory as an option is additional work hours over letting it exist. All monogamous games went out of their way to enforce it.
Watching this video, I also thought about the amatonormativity in games. For example, in Stardew Valley, you get rewarded for getting married, but...don't, if you don't. (I haven't actually played the game through, other than the early game, but from what I know of the game, that's how it happens.) It's something that feels very alienating toward anyone who doesn't want to play romance, for whatever reason, and it's in more than just dating sims...
Overall relationships in games need way more options than monogamous romantic partnerships that still let you access the full game.
I absolutely agree with this. Ido feel like stardew is making steps in the right direction with one of the latest updates allowing you to just have the character Krobus as a roommate. I do wish this was a possibility for every character though with more options for both romance and non-romance in stardew valley and other games!
I'm one of these people in a 12 year long relationship that doesn't plan to get married anytime soon if ever. My maternal grandparents only got married after almost 50 years of being together, those kinds of relationships should be possible in games too without penalizing you for it in a way and neither should you just get left out if you don't want to date at all because that's also just a part of our world.
I totally agree 👏
I mean, I get your point, but a marriage is still a celebration/achievement I guess, like a birthday party would be. I don't see why the game wouldn't give you something for that. Although, I wouldn't mind a little achievement that says "you're doing great on your own" sort of
i think you can actually have krobus as a roommate for similar benefits
Ah, Liara... my bisexual awakening. Thank you for this thought-provoking vid essay. Because video games were a large part of discovering and accepting my sexuality, I've been grateful for how often mechanical bisexuality has been featured in games with romance. Your examination on the topic has prompted me to realize how imperfect that representation is. I'm also looking forward to experiencing some new games based on a few you mentioned throughout your essay.
The Liara relationship was the first time I felt seen as a bisexual in media. Not only could I be a badass hero, but I could romance the cute nerd? I'm IN and tbh has changed my life for the better.
Listen to Liara by Devon Hendryx/Jpegmafia plss one of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard!
The fact that the entire cast of Dragon Age 2 can't be one big bi poly disaster (canonically) was such a mistake on Bioware's part haha I like to think they're getting better, though. We'll see what DA4 offers. But, for real, great video! I always forget how starved I am for bi video essays until I see you post another one. You always make me feel so seen.
I do think it was odd to not include mention of Iron Bull from DA3 in this, though. He's my favorite bisexual video game character, I think, and I don't remember him ever trying to hide that shit (or any of his shit).
"Hi, I'm Hawke! This is my girlfriend Isabela, our girlfriend Merill, my and Isabela's boyfriend Fenris, my boyfriend Anders, our platonic lifemate Varric, my blood-pact sister Aveline, and my regular-blood sibling. Also Sebastian's over there sometimes. How can we make your problems either better or worse"
Still stuck i see
@@IrisGlowingBlue DA2 was such a lovable disaster.
@@IrisGlowingBlue You'd think she'd be open to considering poly but apparently not. At least I'd always have Merrill.
This game's policy on polyamory is "they won't ask, and you can't tell until everyone's mad at you"
As an 8yo baby bi girl, finding out i could flirt and date other girls in the Sims 3 certainly awakened something in me lmao. I remember being completely shocked and being terrified of my mom walking into the room whenever i flirted with girls. I also blushed like a stupid person with every interaction and made sure to flirt with every girl in the city. I still remember the excitement, my heart racing, of getting to date my irl (straight) crush on the game.
Man this just makes me feel like I played this game wrong. I really just never interacted with the people like that. I focused entirely on going through the mine and upgrading my farm, the entire time. When I think about it that largely reflects just how I am so… interesting
there's two types of stardew valley players: people who play it as a dating sim and people who play it as a farming/mining simulator
@@Romanticoutlaw Why not both?
Our life is probably one of the best lgbtq+ representation I've seen since you can be gay, trans or even asexual in the game and you don't even have to romance cove if you want and most of this is all in the character creator.
Love that game! Cove is so sweet!
I know this game already has a pretty massive following for a VN and it's almost in the top 100 games on steam but I still want more people to play it.
@@TheRedHaze3 and the fact that you can play it for free just blows my mind, there's dlc ofc but you can play everything without them.
The game NEEDS more people to know about it! It’s already super popular for a VN, but it’s just so good!
games where all characters shame the player for expressing bisexuality no mater how you do it- very immersive. perfect representation.
I don't tell the people around me that I'm bi because I don't expect to ever pursue romance with a guy so it just seems like an unnecessary hassle to even talk about it but it's pretty annoying when people around me say someone's attraction to one gender proves they're not into the other so I say "Unless they're bi." & they react almost like I said "Maybe they're a reptilian."
the most inclusive conspiracist believes they could be both.
exactly, they aren't mututakky exclusive@@vapid6311
This video really succinctly discusses something I've always known, but was never consciously aware of... Even in video games with "representation", we still have to deal with biphobia, and bi erasure. Fantastic job!
I'm... Not convinced that 'playersexual' stuff gives good gay and lesbian representation, for some of the reasons Verity goes into in the first half of the video. And 'pick your own sexuality' prevents real representation from the player character side but that's a standard problem with player avatars when compared to player characters for every aspect of identity.
@@Stephen-Fox oh, I totally agree! The "pick ur sexuality" totally undercuts any representation! Bisexuality just has the added bonus of erasure on top of everything else
I’ve only just started playing Stardew Valley, but it’s been fun to read community posts about the romance options. A surprising number of not-irl-bisexual people have opinions about which romance options are their favorite, and most people have both bachelors and bachelorettes on their list.
I´m currently obessed with Pathfinder Kingmaker, and one of the things that I love about it, probably my favorite thing, is Regongar, the male love interest, who´s an openly bisexual orc wizard (in a polyamorous, non-monogamous relationship with equally bisexual wizard Octavia, who´s an elf).
One of the things that I appreaciate about it is that Regongar is explecitely into both men and women, and he´s not shy about it. and even if you play as completely straight woman who wants to romance him, he´ll still be openly and vocally attracted to other men.
Not only that, Regongar is explecitly non-mongamous. In fact, one of the ways in which you can start your relationship with him is by agreeing with him that monogamy is trash, lol.
Like, I just love this character so much.
It´s extra ironic when you find you the games creators are RUSSIAN.
by the way, I think the people who made that game clearly like the "bisexual bad boy" trope (along with the "MILF villainess", "emotionally damaged elf girl" and "big muscular warrior women"), because both of the series´games have one as a romanceable option.
I love that you made a point to talk about nonmonogamy in this! I do think it's interesting that nonmonogamy tends to only be an option if you're bisexual in the game, but not gay or straight. Bisexuals being thought to be more likely to be nonmonogamous or promiscuous is pretty common irl to a point where straight nonmonogamous women sometimes can feel a lot of pressure to be more sexually fluid than they may be comfortable with. Kat Blaque has talked about it on her channel.
Anyway, great video! I loved the depth of the exploration and analysis here!
I love painting to your videos. Your cadence is very soothing, while in the meantime mixed with your being fkn hilarious. ❤️
Ugh I love you keep making videos about whatever topic you feel like b/c I remain satisfied by/interested in your work etc etc. As a gay cis guy bisexuality isn't really in my personal life experience but a thoughtful examination of its social dimensions seems to illuminate a lot of both apparently related and seemingly unrelated stuff in both expected and unexpected ways. The Spiderman vid was like the most active critical engagement I've had with Marvel this decade, the working class background of the character against the Disney acquisition and resultant ideology wasn't really anything I had thought about before but it actually got me interested in a possible 'rehabilitation' for the character in a time where I've sort of written off these properties as being vapid b/c of corporate consolidation/monopoly etc.
The first time I was conscious of bisexuality occuring in a game was actually in Bully (or Canis Canem Edit where I am) by discovering you could actually make out with some of the male characters (with the male pc).
Even though it was one male character per clique compared to basically every female character your age, I was surprised that it was played straight (so to speak).
Although it's still optional, it felt pretty legit for some reason. Two of the guys are even seen on a date during one of the missions.
Hey, I just made comment on bully too! (I’m very grateful for YT’s feature of being able to see someone’s other comments on a single channel now lol) It’s a bummer that the most canonical (ie in canon cutscenes) it gets is when you get bullied by others, but still, it’s pretty neat.
@@ChestersonJack unfortunate as it is it feels pretty realistic for the viciously hierarchical world within school, where you beat the crap out of everyone to rise to the top lol
I agree that it's pretty minimal but it felt decently diegetic and it wasn't framed negatively by the game itself. Not that it's like... the greatest rep ever I've just always appreciated it.
Bully gang gang 🤝
Based on the thumbnail, I started the video thinking it was about the reasons why the O button is gay.
I liked the video, but nevertheless I'm still disappointed, because now I'll never know why O is gay.
well if you think about it the O is the hole of playstation buttons, and it could be any hole
From developer standpoint it's way easier to write simple "romance" code for all NPC's no matter the cosmetic choices of the player (Skyrim), than it is to write separate complicated gender/race-specific code for each minor NPC (Dragon age).
Probably one of the most fun examples of bisexuality in games I've found are Monster Prom and its sequel Monster Camp. They're dating sims where you play as a highschooler trying to get a date to prom in Monster Prom or summer fling in Camp (side note, all the characters are very explicitly stated as college aged and act accordingly). Pretty much every character is very nonchalantly bi/pan and it comes up in conversation decently often, and not just in relation to the player. Their bisexuality is just part of who they are and is never depicted as 'promiscuous', (except the ghost party-girl, though her casual attitude towards sex is never characterized as a negative thing). A good example being in Monster Camp where one of the storylines involves you helping the goth witch character Joy Johnson-Johjima deal with three of her ex-partners trying to coerce her into getting back together through absurd shenanigans, and the exes are a nonbinary character, a woman, and a man, which is never even really brought up. It's just treated as nonchalantly normal.
As a bonus, the games generally have tons of phenomenal representation. Prom a bit less so save for one of the love interests being trans-fem and one of the player character options being he/him nonbinary, but Camp knocks it out of the park with a wide range of gender identities, body types, ethnic backgrounds, etc. All of which are brought up without them being the only defining trait of the characters (like the gamer monster-slayer romantic interest Aaravi Mishra mentioning at one point that her grandma would read the Mahabharat as a bedtime story, or Joy's aforementioned exes, or the casually nonbinary reaper love interest who's actually voiced by an NB actor, etc). It's all just delightful.
Oh! And it eschews the typical dating sim issues by having your romantic success be based on your character's personality, time spent with someone, and how much or how little of an ass you make of yourself, rather than stuff like gifts. Shit, this turned into a way bigger comment than I expected.
For context, this comment is written by a bisexual man.
I struggle with understanding part 2. Part 2 was about non-monogamy and bisexuality with the overaching theme being, that you can only express your bisexuality in most games or get recognised as bisexual by being non-monogamous. I tried hard, but didn't see a problem or alternative. The games treat you equally, no matter if you date two people of the same gender or two people of different genders. therefore their focus on monogamy is unrelated to bisexually. You can of course argue for or against polyamory, monogamy and never pursuing any romantic partner. that is a discussion one can have. But it's not the topic of this video; this video is about bisexuality in video games.
The connection between monogamy and bisexuality is, that you generally have no way to tell the game, that you are bi, except by dating multiple people. If I understand you correctly, that is your point. If it is, I accept it as a fact, but I don't see how it's worthy of discussion. When you want to date multiple people, you can (with varying levels of shaming, but that's another topic). And when you only want to date one person, you can do that too. If I get you right, your point is that you cannot date a single person while also letting the game know that you are bi.
Sorry, for this long introduction to my actual comment, but I wanted to be clear in what I am referring to in my comment exactly. after all, the video is two years old and long.
So, onto my actual comment. How would you want to tell the game you are bi? And why do you want to do it. The way I see it, you always play a person capable of pursuing anyone they want. You can marry or date Abigail and you are still playing a character capable of also being interested in Sebastian. Never does ambiguous default get revoked. There is nothing in the game that locks you in as being only interested in Abigail. Whether your character is bi but just doesn't like Sebastian, whether your Character finds Sebastian attractive but wants to be monogamous with Abigail or whether your character finds Sebastian unattractive based on his gender is fully your interpretation and the game doesn't push you towards either of them. Your character is who you want them to be. It's true that you cannot tell the game in a mechanical way that you are bi except by being non-monogamous, but to be honest, you cannot really tell it even then. the game will only recognise you as non-monogamous, but not as bi. You can marry and divorce 5 men in front of Eliot and he will still say he was worried you might not be into men (I think. I am not fully sure).
You want to be able to express in a singleplayer game that you are bisexual. Not towards people but to the software and to yourself. And I understand that for many people that can feel great, especially when they can't express it in reality. But how do you want to be able to express that you are bi to the software? An input field on your character sheet where you can type your sexuality? Dialogue options to tell NPCs "btw, did you know I'm bi"? Which mode of expression do you want to see, that goes being the ambiguity that allows you to interpret the actions of your character however you want?
12:29 - On Assassin's Creed Odyssey: "The main character needs to be a direct descendent from their past counterpart for the story to make sense, therefore, the character in the past NEEDS to end up in a straight relationship" - says the company and the straight gamers.
Actually, this is bullshit: in Syndicate (or even in Origin, for that matter), you are allowed to play with the male or female sibling. Since it's impossible for you to be a direct descendent from two siblings at the same time (unless you are from a family like the Lanisters), that implies your genetic memory can trackback from people who share the same genetic information as you but aren't from your direct lineage.
And... gay people are not sterile. They could have kept the character in a gay relationship with biological kids from their own, without a problem. Just say the kid is from a past relationship, the character is "canonically" bisexual, by the way.
But the most important thing is: it's just shitty gameplay to erase the choices you did as a player. If you are a straight guy who isn't getting my point, think about this hypothetical situation: you played The Witcher 3 and you loved Yennifer, you made Geralt fall in love with her and they ended up together. You were pretty satisfied by this ending. But then, CD Project Red decides to launch an expansion in which the main character is now married to some random female character you never heard of instead of Yen. Would you have liked it? And let's say that was completely necessary for the story they were telling: would you have liked it either way? Why didn't they decide to tell another story, then?
The writers could have easily rewritten the lore on the genetic stuff so you could play as someone who shares your genetic information independently of them being on your direct lineage (let's say the technology for the Animus evolved - which would explain how you are able to play as both siblings in some games).... Or they could give the gay character a child without confining them in a straight relationship since that is not required to leave descendants.
There were so many ways around it, they simply weren't interested in it. Pink money all the way, it seems.
That's all I had to say. Nice video! xoxo
Hell, CDPR has even done that before. I was a very grumpy camper when I found out Geralt had broken up with Shani and started dating Triss between TW1 and TW2. All I had to show for an entire game of being skeeved out by Triss' possessiveness of a guy she wasn't even dating + monogamously adoring the competent and independent doctor was a little note in the codex going "o lol Geralt's in love with Triss now".
tbh as a long time bi fan of the AC franchise, Syndicate is an absolutely horrible example of Assassin Creed's canon. You're right - it makes absolutely no sense. It was established pretty early on in AC1 that the way the Animus works is by reading your DNA, which means Syndicate completely breaks the canon. H O W E V E R, you're otherwise completely right. The way they fixed this inconsistency in Origins was by completely scrapping the genetic element and just having the new protaganist scrape the DNA off an ancient corpse, so, Ubisoft has completely given up on the main conceit of the series, and there's no reason why Alexandra/os had to have a child from a nu-canon perspective. Ultimately though, getting upset over AC canon at this point is a losing battle, It's painfully obvious Ubisoft itself stopped caring a long time ago, lmao. Nothing to do with straight gamers, just Ubisoft shitting on it's own canon. They dropped the genetic conceit their own damn self so they should be held to that decision.
They could’ve also just had your character want to have kids with their same sex couple, so they get someone who was willing to be a surrogate mother or father of some kind. We literally have a system for that in the modern day where parents who can’t have kids go and find a surrogate mother or sperm donor to help you. This was even a practice in ancient times, especially Ancient Greece. They could’ve added that option if they actually researched this a bit better.
I didn't understand why they couldn't just use Deimos as the 'child bearer', so they could continue the bloodline instead of your character. Perhaps the child was born before You even were aware of deimos' existence.
This is amazing, and if anyone has more suggestions for bi indie games, I'd love to hear them!!
Profile pic checks out 😎👉👉
Well, it's not exactly a bi game, but Dream Daddy is a pretty solid lgbt game.
Boyfriend Dungeon -- not the best ending but definitely a decent bi game (unlike what the title suggests, it's not just boyfriends)
Ikenfell has a lot of lgbt rep and a bisexual main character (main as in important to the story the player character is lesbian iirc), though it's not shown until the end of the game.
Watch Me Jump
Alphys from Undertale is bisexual. You can't really date her, as she has only got gifts for Undyne. But she also says she has a crush on Asgore.