Wow, I always knew that Tony was kinda manipulating Peter but when you worded it that way... he really did blackmail a child into working in his private army lol
His presence against Thanos still ended up being crucial. Especially his scenes in Endgame. You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. The North still used child soldiers in the Civil War.
Its against the Geneva Convention to use Minors in a conflict, yah know, Child Soldiers. Also, Peter was not informed about the Sokovia Accords. The MCU writers were too much of a pu$$y to actually enforce the Sokovia Accords because it would make Tony Stark look like a bad guy, which he totally was in the original Civil War in the comics. --- Any enhanced individuals who use their powers to break the law (including those who take part in extralegal vigilante activities), or are otherwise deemed to be a threat to the safety of the general public, may be detained indefinitely without trial.[ If an enhanced individual violates the Accords, or obstructs the actions of those enforcing the Accords, they may likewise be arrested and detained indefinitely without trial. --- Tony tricked an Enhanced Unregistered minor into being a Child Soldier to fight for a Law that would have ruined Peters life.
I totally agree. It didn’t make sense for them to re-establish a father figure for him when a lot of messaging in previous renditions were about him having to provide for himself and his aunt without a father figure. Dialogue in the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movie made this very clear when green goblins identity is revealed to be Dr Osborne (a character not unlike Mr Stark) “I’ve been like a father to you.” “I had a father, his name was Ben Parker,” This shows Peters unwillingness to let someone else take over that role. Instead of getting a new ‘father’ he has to support himself now. Thats the way it’s always been.
"about him having to provide for himself and his aunt without a father figure" A father figure is more than just money, nonetheless the MCU Spider-Man movies have specifically gone out of their way to avoid any mention whatsoever of Ben Parker, or even his actual father. Yes, even Far From Home did this. So presumably he's just grown up with Aunt May this entire time. So it makes sense that he tried to latch onto Stark, and even to a certain extent Vulture in their 1/1 scenes before he finds out who he is. For all intents and purposes Holland Parker HAS, NO, FATHER, WHAT-SO-EVER.
@@Shockguey i think you're right. I recently watched far from home and I really enjoyed the way Peters character progressed. Which surprises me because, original comment aside, I always just thought of him as a white Miles morales. It's nice to see how the mcu has made a character separate from all other renditions of spider man.
@@noahjameson8155 I dont get why this TH-camr is ONLY focusing on this example of MCU Spider-Man and Tony Stark when Norman Osborn is a glorified jerk in Spectacular Spider-Man and Insomniac Spider-Man that we are supposed to root for Spider-Man to save and the despicable business man we are supposed to find “likable” whose actions are downplayed when he ruins lives
You have definitely put your finger on why I don’t like this new Spider-Man anywhere near as much. Tom Holland is adorable, I love Zendaya as MJ, and I don’t even mind the hot Aunt May. But the lack of him being a working class hero does hurt. I loved the Tobey Maguire movies. That train scene is my favourite of all Spider-Man movie scenes. I love the working class solidarity. This Spider-Man, as much as I want to pinch his little cheeks, just doesn’t do that for me.
Now I'm imagining the plotline we COULD HAVE had, where Peter realizes that Stark is leaving this string of minor villains in his wake wherever he goes. The allure of Iron Man swooping in and saving his family from poverty is potent, a little too potent, but after a couple of movies he finally realises what's going on and has to make a choice. The student has to face his teacher, Tony's death is not just Peter losing a mentor but even more bittersweet because he's losing his mentor-turned-enemy that never had a chance to make amends. Maybe he dissolves Stark Industries on his deathbed, or turns it worker-owned or something. And not that Spiderman's going to defeat capitalism in one fell swoop, but I get a nice vicarious thrill from Marvel's Elon Musk going down. I guess what I'm trying to say is... Send anticapitalist Spiderman fic pls
Despite the Civil War run being a bit wank it has got some ace parts of Peter realizing his fancy new suit is bugged, that Stark never fully trusted him, that he has killswitchs built in and when he finally switches to the anti-registration side they set C-list villains on him that beat the fuck out of him. Tony threatens MJ and May with losing their Avengers paid home and possible jail, of course being comics it has to fuck it up at the end but a couple of those pages wonderful.
I always felt that cos Tom Holland's Peter Parker is hella young, its natural for him to be naive and all starry-eyed. Tho lowkey felt that it would make for some sweet character development if Peter realised the working class villains actually have a point. All it would take for one villain to make the right speech. This does actually happen in Homecoming. Vulture hit Peter with the facts in the final act but Peter basically deflects with "your methods are bad so you're a bad person. I'm incapable of interpreting anything that's morally gray, everything is black & white". And the film literally leaves it at that.
@@MrOzzification I love how you ignore Toomes was also a weapons dealer just like Stark but unlike Stark ONLY sold his weapons to dangerous criminals commiting heists that could lead to casulties. So because he has less money than Stark he's a better person than Stark? Can we stop pretending fictional rich people are like real rich people?
You've actually describes why I dislike elon musk. He's a guy who regularly takes ALL of the credit for the work done by his employees and in return his employees are forced to work during a pandemic, prevented from unionising and can be fired at their boss' discretion
I think this notion has been built up in the popular consciousness through no effort of Musk. It simply happened. When did he go out and grab credit? If he ever talks about it he talks about the spacex team, not "I".
Musk's wealth is a direct result of Climate Change directives and government contracts. He simply gave the government a to the T contracts and undercut other companies. Whether we like it or not, the future of Electric cars will be dependant on Tesla's battery technology.
My mom like has a crush on Elon Musk because she thinks of him as real life Tony Stark. I've pointed out to her several times that A) he's not, and B) if Tony Stark were real we'd have pretty serious issues with him.
I would also like to point out that Stark basically forces Peter, a poor, working class kid, to fight someone who also started out as a poor working class kid, Steve Rogers. In the comics Cap's lofty morals came from him being lower class and how his father took out his frustrations on being denied work for being Irish out on his family. So why is Peter not drawn in by Cap's side? Other than Cap would be morally opposed to dragging a child into the fight?
Well in the comics he was on Iron Man's side because he believed in the superhero registration thing, until something tragic happens during an ambush that Iron Man led against Captain America causes him to question Iron Man's leadership. That tragic thing didn't even happen in the movie, so there wasn't as much reason for Spidey to distance himself from Stark. He even unmasks and reveals his identity to the world. They don't really go into Spidey's actually stance on the matter or if he even has one in Civil War, since it's not really about him. For him I think it's just a matter of abiding by the law and not putting too much thought in helping out the iron man whom he looks up to.
Peter probably knows nothing about Cap except that he’s a War Hero. Take a modern day teenager and guess who’d appeal to him more ? Elon Musk or a WW2 vet ?
It would be really funny if MCU Miles Morales resembled classic Spiderman more than MCU Peter does. Spiderverse really NAILED the essence of Spiderman as a character and we may not get anything else quite like it for some time
I always read into the "Spidey Sense" power as an adaptation of a spider's ability to see around them with all of their pairs of eyes. Kinda like the "have eyes in the back of your head" adage, but more metaphysicially than having tons of eyes. Spiders have tons of eyes, some of which detect things above and behind them. Some chelicerates, like scorpions, have an eye on their tail that can only detect UV light!
This video is so refreshing! I'm a massive MCU fan and I find the moral cognitive dissonance in a lot of the films really tonally confusing but also incredibly fascinating. It's so strange to watch a film like Captain Marvel, where the plot surrounds colonialist aliens systematically oppressing another group of aliens who are clearly migrants?? And then the hero of the film escapes that colonialist society to help the migrant aliens by returning to Earth and fondly remembering her past...in the US military??? The two sides of that film in particular are so obviously at odds with each other, it makes you wonder how it got military approval in the first place (I mean all the gross ads certainly do help them I guess). Tony Stark as a character really epitomizes this idea, since every time he learns a lesson in these movies, or is faced with an alternative perspective to his own, whether it's a Spider-Man villain, or a genocidal robot that HE created, or even the other Avengers, the way his story ends in Endgame essentially vindicates him and his actions. I'm excited to see if any of the future films under somewhat new creative direction (now that the Russo Brothers are out) decide to address his character at all. Far From Home certainly chose to sanctify him, even though that movie also has him giving a superweapon kill satellite to a child?? The exact same type of satellite that Captain America spent an entire movie trying to shut down?? Idk where this comment is going but thanks for sparking my brain on this topic with your great video
MCU is strangely obsessed with genocides of aliens. Like I think everyone already forgot about the Dark Elves or whatwastheirname. We only know they're EViL from a canonically untrustworthy source (Aesir history / propaganda) and from the last living extremists. It's like deciding that all Afgans are evil because Talibans exist. It's so strange
@@RM-cn8pw what am I missing about it? He has access to technology that allow him to instantly drop a missile on any person on earth’s head. Steve took issue with not just Hydra infiltrating Shield but the entire premise of such technology existing. Did you watch Winter Soldier?
@@RM-cn8pw but why was that technology made in the first place? That’s the issue. It’s not about who has it. Steve in Winter Soldier took issue with giving that much power to anyone. The technology shouldn’t exist at all.
This finally explained to me why I was so unsatisfied w the new Spiderman film's conflict Spiderman defeated the villains but only through violence, and not by proving them wrong, both the vulture and mysterio won in an ideological way, Peter really is just a cop now
And not only that, but all the villains mcu spider man fought so far are working class villais that had been stoled by Tony Stark. Tom Holland spider man is just an cop and friend of billionares.
@@mellmellody But that is not an merit of the MCU. Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield had those villains, the mcu just took advantage of what other spider mans did.
I mean Vulture is a hypocrite who says that works for the little guy while lives in luxurious house and get a lot of money by selling illegal weapons to the wrong people and Mysterio is a manipulator sociopath who doesn't care if thousands of people die as long as he gets recogniced as a hero. Exactly why they won ideologically ?
@@oa-san53 Vulture was essentially vindicated in Civil War soon after, when Stark didn't trust his friend and cowtowed to the Government's whim. Steve specifically sided with people who were regarded as criminals. With Ant-Man's entire arc being resorting to criminality to make ends meet. Mysterio not so much. He was still a vindictive Steve Jobs type angry at Bill Gates (Stark). Hence the theatrics.
For anyone who didn't know, this is exactly what Marx meant when he talked about capitalism meaning that art and media will always morph into the rich's ideologies, which even affects our individual art :)
@@jerkfudgewater147 At least these idiots are so selfish they are shooting themselves in the foot with climate change. How much are you willing to sacrifice?
Art has been funded by the rich before Marx wrote anything or capitalism came on to the scene. Artists back than had patrons providing resources for them. They were all rich. This has been the case for a while.
@mistybabe5489 bourgeois public funding for arts presents the exact same problem. Just like private funding, govt funding for the arts is inevitably given disproportionately to works with liberal bourgeois ideology.
That's to say nothing of the parallel between Tony Stark manipulating a child into joining a private army and the actual tactics used by actual military recruiters on actual children.
literally watched far from home the other day and the whole time was just shocked at the absolute neglect and mistreatment of a literal child spiderman in that movie. of course, he's always had his personal struggles, but they felt within his agency, but in that he just felt at the whim of adults the whole time. he was given military equipment with no briefing or training or even context. What an absolute mess (love all the cast though they did a good job, just a very flawed concept)
It's worse when you realize that Far From Home takes place 2 months after Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Skrull-Fury blackmails a kid in the middle of a class field trip to fight monsters that end up being holograms for the most part.
@@mightyninjamartin5837 I don't blame him. Fury is now part of SWORD, he's dealing with cosmic things beyond our current understanding. In the eyes of the Universe, someone being a "child" as designated by less than a century of observance means nothing. Can you defeat this Eldtrich monstrosity and save the planet your family resides on? No? Then what good are you?
Watch the spectacular spider-man cartoon. It's probably the most faithful to the spirit of the comics while still updating the story for the modern day.
Went off on a rant about the uncomfortable ramifications of literal child soldier Peter Parker just the other day and delighted in getting recommended this video that articulates it so perfectly. Also I hope you had thermals on under that Spider-girl suit! Braving the cold in spandex for a video essay... truly braver than any US marine...
Some of you are asking my opinion of Spider-Man: No Way Home. I don't like to talk about videos while I'm working on them so all I'll say is...check back here soon 👀 Edit: th-cam.com/video/ugaEqnhMzXw/w-d-xo.html
Dressing for dinner? Haha... I'm eating dinner on the sofa, watching this video, wearing yoga clothes. I didn't realize that the US military had an influence over movie scripts, but I'm not surprised. Very interesting.
I think Top Gun was an early example of the Military having extensive control over the final script. It really paved the way for the pentagon to actively pursue lending military hardware to movies in return for propaganda.
It often has an impact when films want to portray stuff that pertains to the military. If they wanna show a military air base they're gonna need a base and more importantly the planes. The military is happy to loan them all this stuff, provided they have enough control over the script, that they can ensure they won't look bad in the film. Makes it rather difficult to produce a film critizising the US military while also having realistic looking military equiptment on screen.
@@katherinemorelle7115 Yeah, I reject the distinction between "pyjamas" & "clothes" entirely. I wear pyjamas as clothes & vice versa- I forget that quite a few of my fave tshirts, trousers & dresses are actually pjs & nighties :D
The collective delusion of the MCU fandom when it comes to Tony Stark is so tiring. There are a few of us around with enough brain cells to rub together that he's a hypocritical piece of shit who never learns a damn thing, but we're few and far between. Honestly, people just don't think that much about his actions and if they were to they just handwave it because they like Tony since he's such a huge self-insert. Can't let him ever be wrong cuz then all his fanboys (and girls) wouldn't be able to want to be him so bad.
Tony Stark is a likable character but not a likable person. For some people it's difficult to comprehend it. Just like with Loki. It's so bizzare for me how his genocidal tendencies are being shrugged off. Well, it's not like MCu treats genocide seriously in the first place
@@natf7942 lol it’s realllly not that deep. Tony stark is pretty synonymous with Robert Downey jr. half the reasons these movies work is because the lead playing the character is good enough to outweigh the writing. Tony saving the universe isn’t just a white guy billionaire saving the universe, it’s Robert Downeys ultimate vindication in acting. It’s a huge achievement in many ways on a meta level not just on the story at hand level.
Well, No Way Home offers a paradigm shift for the character. Peter at the end of the film is more close to the Spider-Man in the comics than he ever was in the MCU. He is now a loner, he stitches up his own suit, lives in a rented apartment all by himself, doesn't anymore have the fancy tech of Stark, loses Aunt May. Another thing I like about this movie, is that Peter has the moral high ground. He tries and gives the villains a second chance, so that they won't die when they go back to their own native realities, whereas Doctor Strange, wanted to leave them to their fates, without giving them a chance. And, he deals with the stakes and consequences of being Spider-Man, and at long last bringing depth to this version of Spidey.
The thing that always made Spider-Man my favorite superhero, like so many others, was how relatable his struggles were. I’ll never forget the time Peter had to pick between buying groceries or supplies for more web fluid. As a kid that hit me harder than any other bit in any comic. The MCU has definitely departed from that. But maybe after no way home with peter’s support structures gone the subsequent stories can engage with these ideas more. Fabulous content!
Peter may be "poor" in the MCU films, but his apartment is massive by new York standards, and looks to be in long island city, a fancy new neighborhood. Bottom line is that there's a disconnect between what's being said (Peter is poor) and what's being shown (his apartment is worth a million dollars)
I was told that they weren't allowed to mention certain aspects of Spiderman lore, at least in the movies. Which is why in Marvel's What If...Zombies episode, Peter mentions Uncle Ben.
@@mightyninjamartin5837 That was a sound theory before Far From Home, where they mentioned both Bens. At this point it's plausible that the "No Ben" rule was an executive order from Kevin Feige, to try to tie Holland's Parker with the MCU as much as possible in order to bring him into the fold with Marvel Studios instead of Sony.
When I was a child I loved 90’s Spiderman cartoons and I watched Raimi’s trilogy so many times. Actually Spiderman was crazy popular in Italy, there’s also a very famous song called “who killed the spiderman” and the lyrics implies that corporate may have a hand in his murder. Then they tried to screen the Iron Man cartoons but they flopped. I remember hating Tony Stark with a passion, 8 year old me was already fighting the good fight.
There's definitely been a trend in recent years of making basically EVERY story include a rich person who can basically ensure class isn't an issue. Even if there are working class cast members the rich person is there to make sure there's an excuse for the gang to be able to do anything they want at anytime because X person is rich af. It's lazy writing but also probably has more insidious effects.
That happens in real life y'know. Despite being working class my godfather gave me an opportunity with a referral to a better job, which I then used to help my friends out when they were in a jam. Through helping them get hired or just giving them a loan during a rough spot. It's a constant assistance of networks. Which is why relationships matter.
@elowin1691 I literally CHOSE my godfather. Yes, you can do that in some Chriwtian denominations. My father and him have actually never met. The process was no different than making friends with the old people in an organization. Maybe stop acting like a prick and complaining about classes, and you can get ahead by befriending the right people. He wasn't the only old timer who's helped me out. If you're just an unsociable, maybe there's just no helping you.
I don't agree on point that we were not supposed to sympathise with Vulture. For me he was shown as most sympathetic of MCU villians, mostly thanks to introduction scene and fact he keeps Spiderman real identity a secret.
Yeah while I don’t think we are supposed to sympathize much with Mysterio even if he has sympathetic reasons for doing what he’s doing he’s portrayed as a narcissistic jerk. Vulture though? We are definitely meant to sympathize with him, at least on some level. He is still willing to do horrible things, to be sure, but the path his life took is totally understandable. And more importantly, it’s meant to be understandable. There’s more nuance in it than simply “stark good, villains bad.” Which, to be clear, I don’t think this video is trying to push for a simple reading like that. A lot of work is done in the video to point out the complexity behind it all. To the credit of the filmmakers of the two movies, though, I think it’s very telling that the two villains we have gotten so far were both victims of Iron Man’s actions. It would have been nice to see more perspective from Peter around that, maybe seeing him come to terms with the shittier side of his mentor instead of just continuing to hero worship him, but at the end of the day the movies still don’t paint that great of a picture of Iron Man’s actions in the past.
@@DoodMcAwesome to be honest, even outside of the Holland Spider-Man verse, Tony Stark is responsible for a LOT of villains. He's indirectly responsibility for Iron Monger, Ivan Vanko, and Aldrich Killian. He and Bruce Banner (to a lesser extent) are directly responsible for Ultron, which also ultimately leads to Baron Zemo's path to villainy. I might be wrong, but the only other "non-evil" character responsible for creating so many villains in the MCU is Odin, an imperialist warlord.
@@asdkotable Well said. And I actually love this about Stark in the movies. He's a very flawed person who has a lot of baggage behind him and is directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of damage. Sure, he's also responsible for a lot of good he has done, but all of this is what makes it so understandable that he was fully invested in the side of accountability in Civil War because by that point he became well aware of how much damage could be done if they operated unchecked. Because by that point he became aware that he has so many examples of doing that himself. It's such a well done character arc. And I'm all for that bleeding over into the Spidey movies with its villains due to him being a mentor character to Peter in the MCU. I still wish there was more of Peter himself reflecting on how problematic his own mentor truly is, but it's not entirely necessary. Just because Peter doesn't see it doesn't mean we as viewers can't. And that's something that makes his villains in these two movies sympathetic to the audience. You can understand that Stark is a person to root for while also understanding Stark is responsible for a lot of bad shit. It's more complex than what could have been a very black and white kind of story with very little complexity.
I remember reading a tumblr post talking about some of the capitalist worship going on in the first MCU spiderman movie. It's great to see more of that idea get talked about and reach a wider audience.
This really put into perspective why my favorite scenes in the MCU Spider-Man movies are ones where Peter is just interacting with his working-class neighborhood and with his friends. I still like the movies, but they don’t hit the same as older versions of Peter.
Seriously!!!!!!! I could not get over the new films version of spider-man in the slightest. The Rami films were quite cheesy, but I felt they understood the class struggle the Spider-Man films presented. Spider-man is forever the underdog, he does the right thing despite the consequences because of Uncle Ben's death. The PS4 game from Insomniac did such an incredible job highlighting this core aspect of Spider-man's character.. and the Miles Morales DLC/game as well. They do the right thing despite the consequences to themselves, and that's exactly it. They are poor, they are a minority, they aren't at the top of the food chain. The struggle is the main thing. Which ticks me off with Iron Man's involvement. In the comics SM mouths off constantly. Anger issues abound, he doesn't give a shit. Uhhhh anyways, very good video, excellent highlight points. Spider-man is very close to my heart so I have Feelings.
I hate how the MCU does this. They change so many things, that totally invalidate the meaning of the character. For example, take Monica. She didnt deserve for them to take her character, and completely remove her original origin and motives. I get they want to make things more exciting (as they say..) but it seems like they just dont care about character. They just, invalidate the people who really matter, like this character represents something SO IMPORTANT...but then they dont because the MCU made them something entirely different, and now they mean nothing, because the MCU dominated the original comic. You can no longer relate, you just say “Wow! This hero is so cool!” While they do something that just makes the hero that was originally portrayed as a hero, with flaws, a practically perfect figure. No longer a character, more like scraps from who the character used to be.
Yeah, I totally agree with you on how they treated Monica. Instead of getting her powers from an accident from an experimental machine, like the comics, she gets her powers from a byproduct of a white woman's power over an entire enslaved town. A white woman Monica supports wholeheartedly without question for no explicable reasons. She even makes excuses for her abuse of Westview and all of it's inhabitants, including herself.
@@snakes7303 Honestly, instead of Monica coming back from the blip, they could have her comeback from a coma from the accident that would gradually give her the powers. Nope. Black Panther was enough diversity for a multi-film franchise.
@@snakes7303 I dont get why this TH-camr is ONLY focusing on this example of MCU Spider-Man and Tony Stark when Norman Osborn is a glorified rich jerk in Spectacular Spider-Man and Insomniac Spider-Man that we are supposed to root for Spider-Man to save and the despicable millionaire ceo we are supposed to find “likable” whose actions are downplayed when he ruins lives
Iron Man as a super hero makes my goblin brain go "burrr." He's super cool, shoots lasers, and he did have a character arc in his standalone movies. But not only has the fact that he just swapped who he was selling weapons to undermine that a bit, the other MCU films kind of reverted all of his character growth, too.
This video deserves so much more attention! I have loved the marvel franchise for a long time but I am only recently getting the trickles of this perspective. The militarisation theme is so much more noticeable to me now when I watch basically anything MCU-related. And it sucks because it does take away part of the pure enjoyment I get from consuming these stories.
Thank you for all this juicy context!! I did not know about Stan Lee's background, Peter's class struggle, or that Marvel had to get any sort of approval from the US Gov. For their portrayal and use of equipment!!!!! You used the term "Class Solidarity" and that is something I personally need to chew on. Really want to see more of that, really want to BE that.
This is an underviewed video. It makes me want to revisit the Raimi films (well, the first two, at least). I've always been a bit apathetic about Spider-Man having only known him via film characterizations, and being young enough to perhaps not appreciate everything in the Raimi films. Miles Morales is my Spider-Man; Into the Spiderverse is the film that really got me caring about every version of the character (including our universe's Peter Parker, still struggling financially and not doing so great emotionally). MCU Spider-Man is charmingly played by Holland but I haven't really cared about the character and haven't really enjoyed his story for many of the reasons you detail in the video, particularly his entire narrative hanging on his connection with Stark, a character I enjoyed in the first film and then never again. If the third MCU Spider-Man film can start moving away from that bond, I'm hoping his character can grow into something more interesting.
Love this! When I am more financially stable (damn-pemic and all) you will get a new patron! Until then I will be giving you shout outs wherever I feel potential allies may be whilst trying to avoid the TROLLS.
The games do something similar. Instead of becoming the protege of a millionaire, he works really closely with the police and even calls himself "spider cop" instead of acknowledging the adversarial role between the police and the working class
i loved the ps4 game and i think it does a good job showing how peter financially struggles (with that entire level where he gets evicted and you literally have to go digging through garbage to find his stuff) but how friendly spidey is with cops is definitely a huge bone i have to pick with it :|
@@megaultradamn ikr? Like, the game (and a good chunk of Marvel depending on who's writing) exists in this weird otherverse where the police are like... actually just fine? And honestly, that's okay. It's a fantasy land, are we not allowed to have functional institutions in fiction because all our real life ones are broken?
@@megaultradamn the police Spider-Man interacts with are still called the NYPD. They aren’t some magical other force from a different world. As true as it is that the reality of absurd powers in the marvel world should change these institutions, it’s clear that Marvel still wants them to resemble our world. In Falcon and the Winter Soldier they clearly tried to use the snap as a stand in for Covid, because a world that cannot make any points about our world severely limits literary potential. Like it or not, if marvel tells a story that ends up glorifying “the NYPD”, it sends a message of support for the real NYPD to its viewers unless there’s some substantial nuanced effort taken to clarify the distinction in how the messaging is displayed.
@@megaultradamn I actually thought the Silver Sable force was a really good way of trying to address that issue without touching the actual police, so I might consider giving the games a pass for that. Although there’s a difference between bloating the game with sub-plots about police corruption (agree, very unnecessary) and simply not having the existing story revolve around Spider-Man having such a base-level good relation with them. Like come on, Spider-cop? That’s a bit much. But I was actually speaking more broadly on Spider-Man as a franchise. The movies certainly depict the police pretty unambiguously good too. So sorry for the confusion there
I agree with most of these points, but I do gotta point out that Vulture was sorta redeemed at the end of Homecoming. right at the end credits scene. Gargan asks him if he has any clue who Spider-Man is, because he wants to send guys to kill peter and his family. Toomes claims he doesn't know, so he makes it clear that he's still got some good in him. He doesn't want peter dead, or at the very least he doesn't want those around peter dead, which might include his own daughter. Also, I think the MCU films are slowly moving back towards the idea that peter needs to be independant from Iron Man. that was part of what the climax of Far From Home was about, and now in No Way Home he's willing to go to extreme lengths to change the past and keep his loved ones safe.
You've summarised exactly why I don't like the MCU Spider-Man films. Not only did they take away a key theme in his stories (class and wealth), they took away his independence as a superhero and his ingenuity. He relies on Tony for everything, including his suits. He's simply not a self-made hero anymore.
I agree with everything except the idea that the audience has to agree with Tony Stark. Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, Civil War, and even Homecoming all center around Stark's flaws, and Vulture and Mysterio are fan-favorite MCU villains because we as an audience understand where they're coming from. (I also don't know if there's that much of a connection between The Incredible Hulk flopping and its stance on the military.)
from the comics, I did love the Demon in a Bottle story that showed Ironman overcoming alcoholism and the brutality of alcoholism. It really humanizes him. But we don't get that plot in the movies.
Ngl, I teared up when you talked about the working class solidarity in Sam Raimis spidey. Seen enough people lie to cops and throw trash at animal control for strangers that I know for a fact a bus full of strangers would protect a kids identity if he just got his ass kicked trying to save them.
I am so glad I found your videos! Spider-Man was my favorite superhero growing up. I loved him so much and dreamed of being Spider girl haha as a kid growing up in a poor family who struggled with money my whole childhood, he was a superhero I could actually identify with. He always holds a special place in my heart ❤️
Spider-Man constantly being poor was a huge reason of why he become so important to me. Like no I'm sorry I don't have 10 billion dollars to burn on fancy shooty guns and tanks, but I can still be a decent person who always does the right thing despite the personal cost. Tbh i didn't notice exactly why the MCU didn't hit as hard until you pointed this out. Watching the Rami films and Spider-verse give me such a rush that the new films just don't do. Rather than have to seriously worry over how Peter is going to resolve his a) superhero issues b) friend issues c0 school issues and d) money issues, while running on 2 drops of coffee and the minor healing properties of the spider venom, he is just given insanely expensive gear that can solve his problems for him with op AI and explosions. Not saying it's easy of course, he still goes through the ringer, but it takes away from what makes him such an amazing hero. Thanks for this video, it so succinctly sums up what's missing!
This was a really good video!! For all my analyzing etc I hadn't actually thought about a lot of this, myself. Another thing to be noted about things that are kinda... off and wrong about MCU Peter, aside from class being entirely eliminated from the story, is that his story (the geeky best friend, the mentor whose shadow he wants to step out of, etc) was kind of... stolen? from Miles Morales, the black spider-man. It also makes me think about the whole Peter Parker becoming a rich CEO for some time in the comics. It's just... so removed from who he's always been.
"It also makes me think about the whole Peter Parker becoming a rich CEO for some time in the comics." That's a legitimate version of Parker in the Multiverse. He even has a metal suit in Spider-Wars.
No Way Home Spoilers: This is why I really like the end of the movie. Peter is stripped of all of Tony's powers and connections, and finally has to take care of himself in a run down apartment. If they want to keep the franchise going, they HAVE to address his new economic class. I'm really looking forward to how Tom Holland's spider man will be handling "adulthood." No longer coddled by privilege, and having to actually deal with the class issues you describe in the comics.
I can't believe this only just got recommended to me. I've been arguing with people in TH-cam comments about the MCU version of Peter Parker for months and this really helped me understand part of the reason why it feels so off to me. Awesome video.
One thing you forget is that vulture and mysterio are both dangerous to civilians. Mysterio threatens the lives of his own workers and vulture sold alien tech and weapons on the black market. Maybe you should've brought that up.
How do you feel about the direction Tom Holland Spiderman is going after No Way Home? Now that Peter is living on his own and pursuing college, I think his story might start looking like the previous versions again, exploring classism and poverty, except this time he will have a very limited or no support system.
This is why I'm pretty excited for the new Spiderman movies. Peter is more alone than ever. No Ben, no Tony, no money, no May, no MJ. He's getting tossed into working class and street level stories with grimier heroes like Daredevil. I just can't wait to see what a talented team of writers will do with that.
NWH ending kinda corrects these issues.. or at least is a hint for a much more closer interpretation from the original Peter. Hopefully, after what Peter experienced, he'll mature and have to be completely undependant.
I've seen countless videos analysing each of these movies, and comparing them to see which series of films was the best. This video did the best job putting into words the shortcomings of the MCU version of the character, instead of just saying "Iron Boy Jr". Excellent video!
I've watched a bunch of your LGBTQ+ videos, which I love. I'm so thrilled that you're just as insightful when tackling issues like this. You had quickly become one of my favourite youtubers as of late, and now that assertion has been cemented. I really wish I was in a financial position to support you on Patreon...someday
Surprised you didn't mention how in the first raimi film Norman Osborn is a defense contractor like Tony stark. He makes a magic eugenics drug that drives him insane then he uses his weapons to commit a terrorist attack at an event literally called "the world unity day festival."
I agree and appreciate a lot of what was said in this video. I like MCU'S Spider-man but there's a lot to be said of what's missing or what's being wasted. There are things I simply disagree but I would rather focus on more objective mistakes. Firstly, Peter is actually being exploited for free and it's also never stablished that he inherented any sort of money after Tony's death, only the drones (Which also negates Stark's arc, btw). Although Mysterio doesn't get any sort of redemption, Toomes does hide Peter's identity from other people, willingly. Finally, in no moment of the video you address Peter's relationship with Harry, though the aspect of class has always been a big thing, by the moment his best friend is also a billionaire, I don't believe that Lee meant to create a very critical piece about class.
Ngl the the Ironman movies were my start in the MCU, and while I loved and still love the whole "Tony Stark as Peter's Father Figure" headcanon/concept, now that I think about it more the more I'm icked out about how Tony was willing to recruit a child into a war
There are parts I really like about Tom's performance, but overall I think the direction have pushed Spider-Man to be an avenger rather than a working class hero who struggles with rent and just wants to keep his community safe. I think a few changes could have been done to fix this. Instead of Tony seeking out Peter in Civil War instead Peter should have been alerted to something going down at JFK where Cap and Bucky are trying to get a flight to stop Zemo. He can swing on over and step in to help Iron Man since he likes Iron Man. He realizes he got in over his head and takes a step back. Maybe even rethinking on if he did the right thing. Homecoming can mostly remain the same, maybe get rid of Vulture's connection with Tony and just have him be philanthropist who funds criminals to steal from Damage Control, it can mostly be the same though. Far From Home can also mostly stay the same, but I'd lose Nick Fury and Edith and just have Peter go on this class field trip. Instead the thing he gives to Beck is the Iron Spider Suit the last thing Tony gave him. (This is in reference to Nadovmovies video.) FFH can mostly be the same but instead of being recruited by Fury, after the Hydro Man battle Beck approaches Spider-Man and asks for help. Beck's whole goal is to look like a legit super hero and scam people. Peter makes some mistakes and realizes he is relying on the Iron Suit too much he gives it up and meets with Happy in the Netherlands to regroup.
Coming back to this in post-No Way Home, they kind of did throw Peter right back into it. He doesn't have a parent to split the bills with. He doesn't have friends who will let him couchsurf. He doesn't even have an *identity*. I felt like the movie didn't really give that appropriate weight but to be fair, it didn't really have the time.
This video deserves way more views. I love the analysis of the gradual (and not so gradual) changes to Spider-Man's background and character - I, too, grew up watching the 90s cartoon version, and whilst I was definitely not some political mind as a working class kid I did relate more to the Spider-Man I saw in that show than I do to Tom Holland's (very well-played, but nonetheless ideologically different) portrayal.
Recently, I had a chance to rewatch Raimi's Spider-Man movies back-to-back and it definitely reminded me why Tobey Maguire's Spidey is my ultimate favorite of all three movie iterations. He's just more... relatable. I'm also from the working class, I too struggle to support my mom and myself in an increasingly unsustainable economy that crushes the little people, I too am a college student trying to manage to pay the bills with a day job I hate, get school work done/grades up, AND balancing all that with my own "Spider-Man life" which is chasing my dream of becoming a paleoartist. All of Tobey's Peter Parker's struggles and pains, I'm living them right now, I've been living them for two decades. I love Tom Holland's Spider-Man, he's adorable, and I loved Andrew Garfield's grittier, more realistic Spider-Man, but neither of them beat the original Sam Raimi trilogy in the spirit of what Spider-Man is truly about imo. This is my favorite Marvel superhero since I was 12 BECAUSE he's a regular guy from a working class family. He's one of us. After watching your video, now I look at Tom Holland's Spider-Man movies as a complete betrayal of the character, no matter how funny and cutsie he is. Loved watching this and your other videos, real eye-openers!
just discovered your channel from a friend, the amount of effort you put into these essays really shows. I hope you get that breadtube bread, I'll definitely be supporting as soon as I get a job lol
This is a good video. While I'm personally of the mindset that the MCU isn't exactly "Rah, rah! Come on and join, boys and girls (once you're 18!)" the MCU's prevalence as possible military propaganda cannot be ignored. This isn't the topic most people would think of when discussing the MCU but it is an important one that cannot be ignored and you've done good in discussing it. Cool costume, rooftop and background, BTW
Nice video, and overall I agree! There are, however, a few points where I find the movies to take a SLIGHTLY more complex stance: 1. Vulture is incredibly sympathetic in Homecoming. He's regularly considered one of the least evil villains, as the movie frames in such a way that you want to give him a pass on the whole murdery undercurrent of his actions (including attempting to murder a child, his daughter's date no less). But he doesn't seem to relish in murder or use it as a first option (the movie makes a point that killing Shocker was an accident, albeit one he doesn't lose any sleep over), and importantly he seems shook when Peter saves his life and actively conceals the kid's identity afterward. He's been set up where a redemption would be entirely believable. 2. While Mysterio is not sympathetic like Vulture is, in both cases Stark shown to be in the wrong. Throughout the MCU, Stark is played as having a lot of demons (though few of the bottled variety) and of a complex gray morality. Do the movies do enough to hold him accountable for his actions in the Spider-Man movies? No, definitely not, and I'd say though Civil War claims to hold him accountable for his actions in Ultron, it really doesn't. His punishment is guilt -- but he DOES show this guilt, and we're certainly meant to view him at least somewhat negatively for his recklessness and narcissism. 3. Ike Perlmutter hasn't had any creative input in years. I believe Ant-Man was the last movie he was involved in. This is primarily because Kevin Feige hated catering to him (Perlmutter is also the one who rejected a female villain in Iron Man 3 because "women don't sell toys," and never would have allowed Black Panther or Captain Marvel to be made) and went behind his back to the Disney execs to get Perlmutter removed. I just think it's inaccurate to refer to these situations as completely cut-and-dry. I agree with your takeaway, but don't believe it's intentional or sinister, just a casual almost Freudian slip of the studios reacting to a buildup of these ideas wired into their DNA. Stark is a billionaire who CANNOT be held fully accountable for his mistakes, but they still want to show him making mistakes to paint a nuanced character. Can't do "Demon In a Bottle" even though Favreau clearly set it up in Iron Man 2, because this has to be marketed to kids and kids can't know about alcoholism for some reason, resulting a dissonance that creates a billionaire alcoholic who will never get the help he needs and will be showcased as completely fine in spite of his obvious addiction issues. Then Spider-Man is in the MCU, but it rests entirely on this deal where two studios each want to profit off the other, forcing Spider-Man to be closely tied with Iron Man -- this does take its basis from the comic book Civil War plotline, but in that Spider-Man recognized he'd been manipulated and betrayed Iron Man. Because his presence in the Civil War movie is a last-minute shoe-horn designed to generate profits for studios but not meant to be an actually plot-significant role, he's motivated by a weak and poorly thought-out plot device with no time to develop, and now THIS ridiculous cameo is the basis for his character going forward, a military stooge for a billionaire child-endangering alcoholic. Trying to make the most of this, Spider-Man's own movies therefore want to paint a grayer light on this issue, but still aren't allowed to actually disown Tony or call him out for the terrible manipulation he's committed against this teenager. Thus, they instead use villains who've been used and discarded by Tony, but are still "evil" lest we root for them over Peter. What's more, because Tony can't possibly discard Peter himself -- that would be too unforgivable (unlike creating a "fun" robotic villain for the Avengers to fight) -- Peter therefore must also have no more money problems (since Tony is rich). These issues are real and definitely exist in the MCU, just not based in any conscious agenda.
This is a good write up. I do think (especially after watching this video) the MCU Spidey movies fail in showing that working class struggle of Peter Parker, particularly when compared to the Raimi films. But I think despite this inherent oversight going forward, they do a good job of distilling a lot of other great elements of the character. I’ll have to see how I feel after rewatching the movies now with this new insight from the video, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I still enjoy the MCU Spidey movies more than the other ones.
I mean, Tony was right for firing Mysterio, Beck was a narcisist sociopath who threats his coworkers if they don't do exactly what he wants, he doesn't't feel any remorse for manipulating a 16 years old teenager and much less killing people with his illusions. If that guy stayed in Stark Industries he eventually could do something even worse, he wasn't called unstable by Tony for nothing
@@oa-san53 This is a good point. Though I do wonder what happened behind the scenes involving Tony and Mysterio. Because he could have fired him for being a pos. Or he could have just fired him for some frivolous reason. And honestly either would be in his character, especially after seeing the kind of person Tony is throughout the movies. He does get a lot of character development and especially by Endgame has had a lot of growth, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Tony didn’t fire him for just and virtuous reasons. The problem is we don’t get any real interaction between the two characters, even in flashbacks. Not that it’s necessary in the film. It could go either way. And we don’t know if these horrible qualities of the character shown in FFH were even present when he was working for Stark (well, very likely he has always been like this as a person, but that doesn’t mean Stark even noticed this when he was working for him or if Mysterio started becoming more blatant with his shitty actions after the fact). I actually like the idea that Stark fired him for legitimate reasons more, though. It gives the movie a kind of meta element to it. The audience can be led to sympathize with Beck, at least on some level, and consider Tony to be in the wrong. But in the reality this is all narcissistic gaslighting on his part. Even to the audience.
It's been really heartbreaking seeing the state of peter parker deteriorate as much as it has, sure he's quite wealthy and dear aunt may is healthy, and you can give me numbers and show how he remains unencumbered, but at the end of the day the most effective display is to be beaten down and still refuse to frown. Not a care in the world is the worst tale to be told as unlimited freedom trivializes the deed done.
Something I always appreciated about the Raimi films is that May and Ben’s house is full of dated appliances and old furniture. A house that may of been affordable in it’s time but clearly not anymore if they are unable to upgrade. Ben and Peter even have to paint their own kitchen themselves, something which is still fairly labour intensive for a man of Ben’s age because they clearly can’t afford anyone else to do it for them.
This was a great and very well articulated video that explains the feeling of "ickyness" that I can't help but feel whenever I watch the new MCU spider-man movies. I love the character of Spider-man so much, and even the MCU movies have written him as fun to watch and follow, and the villains can be so compelling exactly because of what their story may mean relative to Tony Stark, but then it just feels like if one doesn't hang on to that little mention of Tony's hand in it, by the end of all the spectacle and fireworks, you just end up in a plot of "villain is just bad person, spiderman needs to take them down." I loved the character of Mysterio (can't remember much about Vulture, maybe needs a rewatch) and his ensemble of disgruntled Stark employees, but as soon as you get a feeling of "yeah, Stark WAS an asshole" it turns into them Mysterio going crazy with power and the team tricking a child (as Stark does too, but that isn't addressed) and it's hard to watch the movie and continue empathizing with their motivations. It's like they are designed to turn off any thoughts their character provoke. You (and the article you cite) make it clear that if they were so bold to address Tony Stark's role any deeper than their surface mentions and glorification, it would just unravel the character and they would need to do a lot of writing to get to a satisfying place. Spider-man putting the pieces together would itself have to be its own 2.5 hr movie if we wanted him to come out with a new ideology to stand on. LOVED THE VIDEO and amazing work!!
I often think about class in the broader action hero genre of today. I feel like the working class hero like for example in Die Hard has been replaced by a guy who even if he is not explicitly depicted as loaded can always somehow fall back on expensive equipment that would realistically add up to costing millions. Like even the Fast and the furious franchise is a perfect example. It started out as a movie about a gang of street racers that specifically tune up cheap Japanese cars and the big heist is a shipment of DVD players. Now they are international superspies that are literally going to space.
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Wow, I always knew that Tony was kinda manipulating Peter but when you worded it that way... he really did blackmail a child into working in his private army lol
His presence against Thanos still ended up being crucial. Especially his scenes in Endgame.
You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want. The North still used child soldiers in the Civil War.
except Tony didn't recruit him to fight against Thanos, but during Civil War. That's far more selfish
Its against the Geneva Convention to use Minors in a conflict, yah know, Child Soldiers.
Also, Peter was not informed about the Sokovia Accords. The MCU writers were too much of a pu$$y to actually enforce the Sokovia Accords because it would make Tony Stark look like a bad guy, which he totally was in the original Civil War in the comics.
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Any enhanced individuals who use their powers to break the law (including those who take part in extralegal vigilante activities), or are otherwise deemed to be a threat to the safety of the general public, may be detained indefinitely without trial.[
If an enhanced individual violates the Accords, or obstructs the actions of those enforcing the Accords, they may likewise be arrested and detained indefinitely without trial.
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Tony tricked an Enhanced Unregistered minor into being a Child Soldier to fight for a Law that would have ruined Peters life.
@@Shockguey dude literally just snapped his fingers and died. Starlord fucked up the whole mission and still managed to be more important
@@akiraeatsguitarpicks491 Spiderman saved people after Thanos brought a moon down. Stop being a moron.
I totally agree. It didn’t make sense for them to re-establish a father figure for him when a lot of messaging in previous renditions were about him having to provide for himself and his aunt without a father figure. Dialogue in the Tobey Maguire Spider-Man movie made this very clear when green goblins identity is revealed to be Dr Osborne (a character not unlike Mr Stark)
“I’ve been like a father to you.”
“I had a father, his name was Ben Parker,”
This shows Peters unwillingness to let someone else take over that role. Instead of getting a new ‘father’ he has to support himself now. Thats the way it’s always been.
"about him having to provide for himself and his aunt without a father figure"
A father figure is more than just money, nonetheless the MCU Spider-Man movies have specifically gone out of their way to avoid any mention whatsoever of Ben Parker, or even his actual father. Yes, even Far From Home did this. So presumably he's just grown up with Aunt May this entire time.
So it makes sense that he tried to latch onto Stark, and even to a certain extent Vulture in their 1/1 scenes before he finds out who he is. For all intents and purposes Holland Parker HAS, NO, FATHER, WHAT-SO-EVER.
@@Shockguey i think you're right. I recently watched far from home and I really enjoyed the way Peters character progressed. Which surprises me because, original comment aside, I always just thought of him as a white Miles morales. It's nice to see how the mcu has made a character separate from all other renditions of spider man.
Its why I absolutely despise irondad fics
@@noahjameson8155 I dont get why this TH-camr is ONLY focusing on this example of MCU Spider-Man and Tony Stark when Norman Osborn is a glorified jerk in Spectacular Spider-Man and Insomniac Spider-Man that we are supposed to root for Spider-Man to save and the despicable business man we are supposed to find “likable” whose actions are downplayed when he ruins lives
You have definitely put your finger on why I don’t like this new Spider-Man anywhere near as much. Tom Holland is adorable, I love Zendaya as MJ, and I don’t even mind the hot Aunt May.
But the lack of him being a working class hero does hurt. I loved the Tobey Maguire movies. That train scene is my favourite of all Spider-Man movie scenes. I love the working class solidarity.
This Spider-Man, as much as I want to pinch his little cheeks, just doesn’t do that for me.
Also, why didn’t I only just come across your channel? I feel like I have been deprived. TH-cam algorithm sucks.
exactly
I don't even like the Raimi movies too much, but I can't deny their accuracy!
saaaame
I guess the Vulture is Marvel's working class hero now.
"If the rich didn't have all the money, where would we even put it? My girl jeans don't even have pockets."
HA HA HA HA HA. Solid. Perfection. More!
Now I'm imagining the plotline we COULD HAVE had, where Peter realizes that Stark is leaving this string of minor villains in his wake wherever he goes. The allure of Iron Man swooping in and saving his family from poverty is potent, a little too potent, but after a couple of movies he finally realises what's going on and has to make a choice. The student has to face his teacher, Tony's death is not just Peter losing a mentor but even more bittersweet because he's losing his mentor-turned-enemy that never had a chance to make amends. Maybe he dissolves Stark Industries on his deathbed, or turns it worker-owned or something. And not that Spiderman's going to defeat capitalism in one fell swoop, but I get a nice vicarious thrill from Marvel's Elon Musk going down.
I guess what I'm trying to say is... Send anticapitalist Spiderman fic pls
I'm not even a fanfic author, but this video made me want to become one lmao Anti capitalist Spider-Man is where it's at
Despite the Civil War run being a bit wank it has got some ace parts of Peter realizing his fancy new suit is bugged, that Stark never fully trusted him, that he has killswitchs built in and when he finally switches to the anti-registration side they set C-list villains on him that beat the fuck out of him. Tony threatens MJ and May with losing their Avengers paid home and possible jail, of course being comics it has to fuck it up at the end but a couple of those pages wonderful.
I always felt that cos Tom Holland's Peter Parker is hella young, its natural for him to be naive and all starry-eyed. Tho lowkey felt that it would make for some sweet character development if Peter realised the working class villains actually have a point. All it would take for one villain to make the right speech. This does actually happen in Homecoming. Vulture hit Peter with the facts in the final act but Peter basically deflects with "your methods are bad so you're a bad person. I'm incapable of interpreting anything that's morally gray, everything is black & white".
And the film literally leaves it at that.
Elon musk already exists in the MCU and No Way Home fixed Spider-Man
@@MrOzzification I love how you ignore Toomes was also a weapons dealer just like Stark but unlike Stark ONLY sold his weapons to dangerous criminals commiting heists that could lead to casulties. So because he has less money than Stark he's a better person than Stark? Can we stop pretending fictional rich people are like real rich people?
You've actually describes why I dislike elon musk. He's a guy who regularly takes ALL of the credit for the work done by his employees and in return his employees are forced to work during a pandemic, prevented from unionising and can be fired at their boss' discretion
he also openly supports coups in south america
I think this notion has been built up in the popular consciousness through no effort of Musk. It simply happened. When did he go out and grab credit? If he ever talks about it he talks about the spacex team, not "I".
Musk's wealth is a direct result of Climate Change directives and government contracts. He simply gave the government a to the T contracts and undercut other companies.
Whether we like it or not, the future of Electric cars will be dependant on Tesla's battery technology.
@@pseudonymousbeing987 He constantly claims that he has founded Tesla when in reality he wasn't even one of the co-founders.
My mom like has a crush on Elon Musk because she thinks of him as real life Tony Stark. I've pointed out to her several times that A) he's not, and B) if Tony Stark were real we'd have pretty serious issues with him.
I would also like to point out that Stark basically forces Peter, a poor, working class kid, to fight someone who also started out as a poor working class kid, Steve Rogers. In the comics Cap's lofty morals came from him being lower class and how his father took out his frustrations on being denied work for being Irish out on his family. So why is Peter not drawn in by Cap's side? Other than Cap would be morally opposed to dragging a child into the fight?
Lmao that’s cuz Peter had no clue what he was fighting for. He was just happy to be there
You’re making me sob for the missed opportunity I’m realizing happened with them not having Cap be his mentor and opting for iron man
Well in the comics he was on Iron Man's side because he believed in the superhero registration thing, until something tragic happens during an ambush that Iron Man led against Captain America causes him to question Iron Man's leadership. That tragic thing didn't even happen in the movie, so there wasn't as much reason for Spidey to distance himself from Stark. He even unmasks and reveals his identity to the world.
They don't really go into Spidey's actually stance on the matter or if he even has one in Civil War, since it's not really about him. For him I think it's just a matter of abiding by the law and not putting too much thought in helping out the iron man whom he looks up to.
That is the worst scene in the entire MCU, like, they turned Peter Parker into an Stark employee that just does whatever Stark tells him to do.
Peter probably knows nothing about Cap except that he’s a War Hero. Take a modern day teenager and guess who’d appeal to him more ? Elon Musk or a WW2 vet ?
I'm really not a fan of MCU Peter's storyline and it's nice to be validated.
Not my place but... have you considered "Redacted Redaction"? Still like the handle btw... And Kermit!!!!!!
While I personally love it, I do think they could explore his financial situation a lot more
am really starting to see the flaws in MCU's spider mans story. Spider hasn't really saved anyone, he just saves tony stark stuff.
@@erispapps9929 Well, he has saved some people, but yeah, I totally see what you mean. I wish they focused on more of that stuff at times.
It would be really funny if MCU Miles Morales resembled classic Spiderman more than MCU Peter does. Spiderverse really NAILED the essence of Spiderman as a character and we may not get anything else quite like it for some time
I never realized how sinister the changes to this plot were....
True I didn't realize how messed up Tony and Peter's relationship in the MCU was until now
@@RM-cn8pw Well... Not on the surface but what they said in the video does make quite a bit of sense
@@RM-cn8pw Hmm... I'll rewatch the video just to make sure
@@RM-cn8pw so it isn't true that Peter Parker doesn't have money problems anymore?
@@RM-cn8pw show me an example then
I always read into the "Spidey Sense" power as an adaptation of a spider's ability to see around them with all of their pairs of eyes. Kinda like the "have eyes in the back of your head" adage, but more metaphysicially than having tons of eyes.
Spiders have tons of eyes, some of which detect things above and behind them. Some chelicerates, like scorpions, have an eye on their tail that can only detect UV light!
Also they are sensitive to vibrations, the hairs on their body can feel sound and movement.
This video is so refreshing! I'm a massive MCU fan and I find the moral cognitive dissonance in a lot of the films really tonally confusing but also incredibly fascinating. It's so strange to watch a film like Captain Marvel, where the plot surrounds colonialist aliens systematically oppressing another group of aliens who are clearly migrants?? And then the hero of the film escapes that colonialist society to help the migrant aliens by returning to Earth and fondly remembering her past...in the US military??? The two sides of that film in particular are so obviously at odds with each other, it makes you wonder how it got military approval in the first place (I mean all the gross ads certainly do help them I guess). Tony Stark as a character really epitomizes this idea, since every time he learns a lesson in these movies, or is faced with an alternative perspective to his own, whether it's a Spider-Man villain, or a genocidal robot that HE created, or even the other Avengers, the way his story ends in Endgame essentially vindicates him and his actions. I'm excited to see if any of the future films under somewhat new creative direction (now that the Russo Brothers are out) decide to address his character at all. Far From Home certainly chose to sanctify him, even though that movie also has him giving a superweapon kill satellite to a child?? The exact same type of satellite that Captain America spent an entire movie trying to shut down?? Idk where this comment is going but thanks for sparking my brain on this topic with your great video
That's Corporate America Style; "You have something I need, let me use you or I will destroy you."
I never realized Tony’s glasses literally invalidate Winter Soldier as a movie. Crazy how that went over everyone’s head.
MCU is strangely obsessed with genocides of aliens. Like I think everyone already forgot about the Dark Elves or whatwastheirname. We only know they're EViL from a canonically untrustworthy source (Aesir history / propaganda) and from the last living extremists. It's like deciding that all Afgans are evil because Talibans exist. It's so strange
@@RM-cn8pw what am I missing about it? He has access to technology that allow him to instantly drop a missile on any person on earth’s head. Steve took issue with not just Hydra infiltrating Shield but the entire premise of such technology existing. Did you watch Winter Soldier?
@@RM-cn8pw but why was that technology made in the first place? That’s the issue. It’s not about who has it. Steve in Winter Soldier took issue with giving that much power to anyone. The technology shouldn’t exist at all.
This finally explained to me why I was so unsatisfied w the new Spiderman film's conflict
Spiderman defeated the villains but only through violence, and not by proving them wrong, both the vulture and mysterio won in an ideological way, Peter really is just a cop now
And not only that, but all the villains mcu spider man fought so far are working class villais that had been stoled by Tony Stark. Tom Holland spider man is just an cop and friend of billionares.
@@mellmellody But that is not an merit of the MCU. Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield had those villains, the mcu just took advantage of what other spider mans did.
I mean Vulture is a hypocrite who says that works for the little guy while lives in luxurious house and get a lot of money by selling illegal weapons to the wrong people and Mysterio is a manipulator sociopath who doesn't care if thousands of people die as long as he gets recogniced as a hero. Exactly why they won ideologically ?
@@mellmellody "actually gets him to try and help them! or at least not get them killed"
The problem is they didn't want any help. What do you do then?
@@oa-san53 Vulture was essentially vindicated in Civil War soon after, when Stark didn't trust his friend and cowtowed to the Government's whim. Steve specifically sided with people who were regarded as criminals. With Ant-Man's entire arc being resorting to criminality to make ends meet.
Mysterio not so much. He was still a vindictive Steve Jobs type angry at Bill Gates (Stark). Hence the theatrics.
For anyone who didn't know, this is exactly what Marx meant when he talked about capitalism meaning that art and media will always morph into the rich's ideologies, which even affects our individual art :)
God damnit the rot is so insidious I didn’t see it until now
@@jerkfudgewater147 At least these idiots are so selfish they are shooting themselves in the foot with climate change.
How much are you willing to sacrifice?
Art has been funded by the rich before Marx wrote anything or capitalism came on to the scene. Artists back than had patrons providing resources for them. They were all rich. This has been the case for a while.
@mistybabe5489 bourgeois public funding for arts presents the exact same problem. Just like private funding, govt funding for the arts is inevitably given disproportionately to works with liberal bourgeois ideology.
‘karl marx was a fuckboy” - F.D. Signifier
That's to say nothing of the parallel between Tony Stark manipulating a child into joining a private army and the actual tactics used by actual military recruiters on actual children.
You'll be happy to know military recruitment is at an all time low. Free college isn't wort the squeeze.
My patrons got a blooper reel which is vastly superior to the video essay, imho
literally watched far from home the other day and the whole time was just shocked at the absolute neglect and mistreatment of a literal child spiderman in that movie. of course, he's always had his personal struggles, but they felt within his agency, but in that he just felt at the whim of adults the whole time. he was given military equipment with no briefing or training or even context. What an absolute mess (love all the cast though they did a good job, just a very flawed concept)
It's worse when you realize that Far From Home takes place 2 months after Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Skrull-Fury blackmails a kid in the middle of a class field trip to fight monsters that end up being holograms for the most part.
@@mightyninjamartin5837 I don't blame him. Fury is now part of SWORD, he's dealing with cosmic things beyond our current understanding.
In the eyes of the Universe, someone being a "child" as designated by less than a century of observance means nothing.
Can you defeat this Eldtrich monstrosity and save the planet your family resides on? No? Then what good are you?
the only spider man media ive consumed has been the mcu. i never realised how integral class is to his character. thank you for this video!!
aw man you gotta try out the rami films. at least the first one.
Watch the spectacular spider-man cartoon. It's probably the most faithful to the spirit of the comics while still updating the story for the modern day.
watch the Sam Reimi films!!! You will NOT regret it xd
me, this is me
I hope that's changed, there's so much more to Spidey than the mcu
Went off on a rant about the uncomfortable ramifications of literal child soldier Peter Parker just the other day and delighted in getting recommended this video that articulates it so perfectly. Also I hope you had thermals on under that Spider-girl suit! Braving the cold in spandex for a video essay... truly braver than any US marine...
Some of you are asking my opinion of Spider-Man: No Way Home. I don't like to talk about videos while I'm working on them so all I'll say is...check back here soon 👀
Edit: th-cam.com/video/ugaEqnhMzXw/w-d-xo.html
Noted....
Dressing for dinner? Haha... I'm eating dinner on the sofa, watching this video, wearing yoga clothes. I didn't realize that the US military had an influence over movie scripts, but I'm not surprised. Very interesting.
I don’t dress at all if I’m not leaving the house, let alone dress for dinner. Nighties are perfectly good to wear all day, as far as I’m concerned.
I think Top Gun was an early example of the Military having extensive control over the final script. It really paved the way for the pentagon to actively pursue lending military hardware to movies in return for propaganda.
It often has an impact when films want to portray stuff that pertains to the military. If they wanna show a military air base they're gonna need a base and more importantly the planes. The military is happy to loan them all this stuff, provided they have enough control over the script, that they can ensure they won't look bad in the film.
Makes it rather difficult to produce a film critizising the US military while also having realistic looking military equiptment on screen.
@@katherinemorelle7115 Yeah, I reject the distinction between "pyjamas" & "clothes" entirely. I wear pyjamas as clothes & vice versa- I forget that quite a few of my fave tshirts, trousers & dresses are actually pjs & nighties :D
If you want more food for thought, I believe the military also helps fund and influence the Call of Duty games
Oh wow, you should go "full breadtube feral" more often, this was awesome, articulate, and clearly well thought out! I love it!
Wish the fandom like, acknowledged this an any shape or form! Instead i will have to slog through hundreds of “Team Tony was Right” fics i guess woo!
Ugh, I know. I don't like Tony and his hypocrite ways. And I don't like how Peter was treated. 😒
The collective delusion of the MCU fandom when it comes to Tony Stark is so tiring. There are a few of us around with enough brain cells to rub together that he's a hypocritical piece of shit who never learns a damn thing, but we're few and far between. Honestly, people just don't think that much about his actions and if they were to they just handwave it because they like Tony since he's such a huge self-insert. Can't let him ever be wrong cuz then all his fanboys (and girls) wouldn't be able to want to be him so bad.
Tony Stark is a likable character but not a likable person. For some people it's difficult to comprehend it. Just like with Loki. It's so bizzare for me how his genocidal tendencies are being shrugged off. Well, it's not like MCu treats genocide seriously in the first place
Years has past since I started exculding the Tony Stark tag entirely, and it made things so much easier.
@@natf7942 lol it’s realllly not that deep. Tony stark is pretty synonymous with Robert Downey jr. half the reasons these movies work is because the lead playing the character is good enough to outweigh the writing. Tony saving the universe isn’t just a white guy billionaire saving the universe, it’s Robert Downeys ultimate vindication in acting. It’s a huge achievement in many ways on a meta level not just on the story at hand level.
Well, No Way Home offers a paradigm shift for the character. Peter at the end of the film is more close to the Spider-Man in the comics than he ever was in the MCU. He is now a loner, he stitches up his own suit, lives in a rented apartment all by himself, doesn't anymore have the fancy tech of Stark, loses Aunt May.
Another thing I like about this movie, is that Peter has the moral high ground. He tries and gives the villains a second chance, so that they won't die when they go back to their own native realities, whereas Doctor Strange, wanted to leave them to their fates, without giving them a chance.
And, he deals with the stakes and consequences of being Spider-Man, and at long last bringing depth to this version of Spidey.
That's only because Sam Raimi was behind the wheel. Sadly I think its too little too late.
The thing that always made Spider-Man my favorite superhero, like so many others, was how relatable his struggles were. I’ll never forget the time Peter had to pick between buying groceries or supplies for more web fluid. As a kid that hit me harder than any other bit in any comic. The MCU has definitely departed from that. But maybe after no way home with peter’s support structures gone the subsequent stories can engage with these ideas more. Fabulous content!
So fun and insightful! It's true -- so hard to find action or super hero projects that aren't copiganda lately.
Peter may be "poor" in the MCU films, but his apartment is massive by new York standards, and looks to be in long island city, a fancy new neighborhood. Bottom line is that there's a disconnect between what's being said (Peter is poor) and what's being shown (his apartment is worth a million dollars)
Well, this explains why Uncle Ben is never mentioned.
I was told that they weren't allowed to mention certain aspects of Spiderman lore, at least in the movies. Which is why in Marvel's What If...Zombies episode, Peter mentions Uncle Ben.
@@mightyninjamartin5837 That was a sound theory before Far From Home, where they mentioned both Bens.
At this point it's plausible that the "No Ben" rule was an executive order from Kevin Feige, to try to tie Holland's Parker with the MCU as much as possible in order to bring him into the fold with Marvel Studios instead of Sony.
When I was a child I loved 90’s Spiderman cartoons and I watched Raimi’s trilogy so many times. Actually Spiderman was crazy popular in Italy, there’s also a very famous song called “who killed the spiderman” and the lyrics implies that corporate may have a hand in his murder.
Then they tried to screen the Iron Man cartoons but they flopped. I remember hating Tony Stark with a passion, 8 year old me was already fighting the good fight.
Spiderman is popular in every country tbh
His well written origin story works everywhere
Thanks to Stan lee and Steve ditko
There's definitely been a trend in recent years of making basically EVERY story include a rich person who can basically ensure class isn't an issue. Even if there are working class cast members the rich person is there to make sure there's an excuse for the gang to be able to do anything they want at anytime because X person is rich af. It's lazy writing but also probably has more insidious effects.
That happens in real life y'know. Despite being working class my godfather gave me an opportunity with a referral to a better job, which I then used to help my friends out when they were in a jam. Through helping them get hired or just giving them a loan during a rough spot.
It's a constant assistance of networks. Which is why relationships matter.
@@Shockguey Good for you?
@elowin1691 It could be you, too. Develop a good friend network.
@@Shockguey "my godfather helped me out" -> "just develop a better friend network silly" like, bruh
@elowin1691 I literally CHOSE my godfather. Yes, you can do that in some Chriwtian denominations. My father and him have actually never met. The process was no different than making friends with the old people in an organization.
Maybe stop acting like a prick and complaining about classes, and you can get ahead by befriending the right people.
He wasn't the only old timer who's helped me out. If you're just an unsociable, maybe there's just no helping you.
I don't agree on point that we were not supposed to sympathise with Vulture. For me he was shown as most sympathetic of MCU villians, mostly thanks to introduction scene and fact he keeps Spiderman real identity a secret.
Yeah while I don’t think we are supposed to sympathize much with Mysterio even if he has sympathetic reasons for doing what he’s doing he’s portrayed as a narcissistic jerk. Vulture though? We are definitely meant to sympathize with him, at least on some level. He is still willing to do horrible things, to be sure, but the path his life took is totally understandable. And more importantly, it’s meant to be understandable. There’s more nuance in it than simply “stark good, villains bad.” Which, to be clear, I don’t think this video is trying to push for a simple reading like that. A lot of work is done in the video to point out the complexity behind it all. To the credit of the filmmakers of the two movies, though, I think it’s very telling that the two villains we have gotten so far were both victims of Iron Man’s actions. It would have been nice to see more perspective from Peter around that, maybe seeing him come to terms with the shittier side of his mentor instead of just continuing to hero worship him, but at the end of the day the movies still don’t paint that great of a picture of Iron Man’s actions in the past.
@@DoodMcAwesome to be honest, even outside of the Holland Spider-Man verse, Tony Stark is responsible for a LOT of villains. He's indirectly responsibility for Iron Monger, Ivan Vanko, and Aldrich Killian. He and Bruce Banner (to a lesser extent) are directly responsible for Ultron, which also ultimately leads to Baron Zemo's path to villainy. I might be wrong, but the only other "non-evil" character responsible for creating so many villains in the MCU is Odin, an imperialist warlord.
@@asdkotable Well said. And I actually love this about Stark in the movies. He's a very flawed person who has a lot of baggage behind him and is directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of damage. Sure, he's also responsible for a lot of good he has done, but all of this is what makes it so understandable that he was fully invested in the side of accountability in Civil War because by that point he became well aware of how much damage could be done if they operated unchecked. Because by that point he became aware that he has so many examples of doing that himself. It's such a well done character arc. And I'm all for that bleeding over into the Spidey movies with its villains due to him being a mentor character to Peter in the MCU. I still wish there was more of Peter himself reflecting on how problematic his own mentor truly is, but it's not entirely necessary. Just because Peter doesn't see it doesn't mean we as viewers can't. And that's something that makes his villains in these two movies sympathetic to the audience. You can understand that Stark is a person to root for while also understanding Stark is responsible for a lot of bad shit. It's more complex than what could have been a very black and white kind of story with very little complexity.
@@DoodMcAwesome I was thinking this myself, thank you for pointing it out.
@@superclarendon8648 no problem!
I remember reading a tumblr post talking about some of the capitalist worship going on in the first MCU spiderman movie. It's great to see more of that idea get talked about and reach a wider audience.
This really put into perspective why my favorite scenes in the MCU Spider-Man movies are ones where Peter is just interacting with his working-class neighborhood and with his friends. I still like the movies, but they don’t hit the same as older versions of Peter.
Seriously!!!!!!! I could not get over the new films version of spider-man in the slightest. The Rami films were quite cheesy, but I felt they understood the class struggle the Spider-Man films presented. Spider-man is forever the underdog, he does the right thing despite the consequences because of Uncle Ben's death. The PS4 game from Insomniac did such an incredible job highlighting this core aspect of Spider-man's character.. and the Miles Morales DLC/game as well. They do the right thing despite the consequences to themselves, and that's exactly it. They are poor, they are a minority, they aren't at the top of the food chain. The struggle is the main thing. Which ticks me off with Iron Man's involvement. In the comics SM mouths off constantly. Anger issues abound, he doesn't give a shit.
Uhhhh anyways, very good video, excellent highlight points. Spider-man is very close to my heart so I have Feelings.
I hate how the MCU does this. They change so many things, that totally invalidate the meaning of the character. For example, take Monica. She didnt deserve for them to take her character, and completely remove her original origin and motives. I get they want to make things more exciting (as they say..) but it seems like they just dont care about character. They just, invalidate the people who really matter, like this character represents something SO IMPORTANT...but then they dont because the MCU made them something entirely different, and now they mean nothing, because the MCU dominated the original comic. You can no longer relate, you just say “Wow! This hero is so cool!” While they do something that just makes the hero that was originally portrayed as a hero, with flaws, a practically perfect figure. No longer a character, more like scraps from who the character used to be.
Yeah, I totally agree with you on how they treated Monica. Instead of getting her powers from an accident from an experimental machine, like the comics, she gets her powers from a byproduct of a white woman's power over an entire enslaved town. A white woman Monica supports wholeheartedly without question for no explicable reasons. She even makes excuses for her abuse of Westview and all of it's inhabitants, including herself.
@@mightyninjamartin5837 EXACTLY, its so stupid, and it makes absolutely no sense for them to do that to her.
@@snakes7303 Honestly, instead of Monica coming back from the blip, they could have her comeback from a coma from the accident that would gradually give her the powers. Nope. Black Panther was enough diversity for a multi-film franchise.
@@snakes7303 I dont get why this TH-camr is ONLY focusing on this example of MCU Spider-Man and Tony Stark when Norman Osborn is a glorified rich jerk in Spectacular Spider-Man and Insomniac Spider-Man that we are supposed to root for Spider-Man to save and the despicable millionaire ceo we are supposed to find “likable” whose actions are downplayed when he ruins lives
The worst part about the mcu is that not one villain threw a bag with a comically large dollar sign on it at Spiderman
yessssss you explained my vague uncomfortableness with tony and his use of peter excellently
Iron Man as a super hero makes my goblin brain go "burrr." He's super cool, shoots lasers, and he did have a character arc in his standalone movies. But not only has the fact that he just swapped who he was selling weapons to undermine that a bit, the other MCU films kind of reverted all of his character growth, too.
I'm very interested to see what they'll do with Peter after the ending of NWH since it allows for the economic problems to come back into the fold.
Bold of you to assume the MCU would actually make commentary on pressing social issues
@@estlin2001 True. They may side step this all together in the sequel.
@@estlin2001 they might. let's see.
Whenever you see MCU Peter and feel sad, always remember that Spectacular Spiderman reruns from 2008 are just a short click away.
great video, i always felt a bit iffy about how peter gets recruited by stark, now i know why. thanks for making this!
This video deserves so much more attention! I have loved the marvel franchise for a long time but I am only recently getting the trickles of this perspective. The militarisation theme is so much more noticeable to me now when I watch basically anything MCU-related. And it sucks because it does take away part of the pure enjoyment I get from consuming these stories.
Thank you for all this juicy context!! I did not know about Stan Lee's background, Peter's class struggle, or that Marvel had to get any sort of approval from the US Gov. For their portrayal and use of equipment!!!!!
You used the term "Class Solidarity" and that is something I personally need to chew on. Really want to see more of that, really want to BE that.
This is an underviewed video. It makes me want to revisit the Raimi films (well, the first two, at least).
I've always been a bit apathetic about Spider-Man having only known him via film characterizations, and being young enough to perhaps not appreciate everything in the Raimi films. Miles Morales is my Spider-Man; Into the Spiderverse is the film that really got me caring about every version of the character (including our universe's Peter Parker, still struggling financially and not doing so great emotionally).
MCU Spider-Man is charmingly played by Holland but I haven't really cared about the character and haven't really enjoyed his story for many of the reasons you detail in the video, particularly his entire narrative hanging on his connection with Stark, a character I enjoyed in the first film and then never again. If the third MCU Spider-Man film can start moving away from that bond, I'm hoping his character can grow into something more interesting.
Love this! When I am more financially stable (damn-pemic and all) you will get a new patron! Until then I will be giving you shout outs wherever I feel potential allies may be whilst trying to avoid the TROLLS.
The games do something similar. Instead of becoming the protege of a millionaire, he works really closely with the police and even calls himself "spider cop" instead of acknowledging the adversarial role between the police and the working class
i loved the ps4 game and i think it does a good job showing how peter financially struggles (with that entire level where he gets evicted and you literally have to go digging through garbage to find his stuff) but how friendly spidey is with cops is definitely a huge bone i have to pick with it :|
@@megaultradamn ikr? Like, the game (and a good chunk of Marvel depending on who's writing) exists in this weird otherverse where the police are like... actually just fine? And honestly, that's okay. It's a fantasy land, are we not allowed to have functional institutions in fiction because all our real life ones are broken?
@@megaultradamn the police Spider-Man interacts with are still called the NYPD. They aren’t some magical other force from a different world. As true as it is that the reality of absurd powers in the marvel world should change these institutions, it’s clear that Marvel still wants them to resemble our world. In Falcon and the Winter Soldier they clearly tried to use the snap as a stand in for Covid, because a world that cannot make any points about our world severely limits literary potential. Like it or not, if marvel tells a story that ends up glorifying “the NYPD”, it sends a message of support for the real NYPD to its viewers unless there’s some substantial nuanced effort taken to clarify the distinction in how the messaging is displayed.
@@megaultradamn I actually thought the Silver Sable force was a really good way of trying to address that issue without touching the actual police, so I might consider giving the games a pass for that. Although there’s a difference between bloating the game with sub-plots about police corruption (agree, very unnecessary) and simply not having the existing story revolve around Spider-Man having such a base-level good relation with them. Like come on, Spider-cop? That’s a bit much.
But I was actually speaking more broadly on Spider-Man as a franchise. The movies certainly depict the police pretty unambiguously good too. So sorry for the confusion there
@@jaybee27D Spidercop was a spoof to batman, not an actual cop. maybe it's the word 'cop' that's bothering you
I agree with most of these points, but I do gotta point out that Vulture was sorta redeemed at the end of Homecoming. right at the end credits scene. Gargan asks him if he has any clue who Spider-Man is, because he wants to send guys to kill peter and his family. Toomes claims he doesn't know, so he makes it clear that he's still got some good in him. He doesn't want peter dead, or at the very least he doesn't want those around peter dead, which might include his own daughter.
Also, I think the MCU films are slowly moving back towards the idea that peter needs to be independant from Iron Man. that was part of what the climax of Far From Home was about, and now in No Way Home he's willing to go to extreme lengths to change the past and keep his loved ones safe.
4:18 guy on the balcony: " honey, the woman in the spider-man suit is back on the roof across the street again"
One of the best scenes in the Raimi trilogy is Peter trying to reject Aunt May’s money and her angrily insisting on him taking it.
jesus christ they made peter parker into a scab how did i not see this before
You've summarised exactly why I don't like the MCU Spider-Man films. Not only did they take away a key theme in his stories (class and wealth), they took away his independence as a superhero and his ingenuity. He relies on Tony for everything, including his suits. He's simply not a self-made hero anymore.
The train scene in the first spider man trilogy still makes me emotional
Finally someone that recognizes MCU Tony’s blatant villainy
I agree with everything except the idea that the audience has to agree with Tony Stark. Iron Man 2, Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, Civil War, and even Homecoming all center around Stark's flaws, and Vulture and Mysterio are fan-favorite MCU villains because we as an audience understand where they're coming from. (I also don't know if there's that much of a connection between The Incredible Hulk flopping and its stance on the military.)
the audience didn’t get the message that’s the point
from the comics, I did love the Demon in a Bottle story that showed Ironman overcoming alcoholism and the brutality of alcoholism. It really humanizes him.
But we don't get that plot in the movies.
They did a half ass version in iron man 2 and boiled it down to Tony dj-ing a party in his iron man suit
I blame Disney taking over Marvel mid-production
Ngl, I teared up when you talked about the working class solidarity in Sam Raimis spidey. Seen enough people lie to cops and throw trash at animal control for strangers that I know for a fact a bus full of strangers would protect a kids identity if he just got his ass kicked trying to save them.
I am so glad I found your videos! Spider-Man was my favorite superhero growing up. I loved him so much and dreamed of being Spider girl haha as a kid growing up in a poor family who struggled with money my whole childhood, he was a superhero I could actually identify with. He always holds a special place in my heart ❤️
Spider-Man constantly being poor was a huge reason of why he become so important to me. Like no I'm sorry I don't have 10 billion dollars to burn on fancy shooty guns and tanks, but I can still be a decent person who always does the right thing despite the personal cost. Tbh i didn't notice exactly why the MCU didn't hit as hard until you pointed this out. Watching the Rami films and Spider-verse give me such a rush that the new films just don't do. Rather than have to seriously worry over how Peter is going to resolve his a) superhero issues b) friend issues c0 school issues and d) money issues, while running on 2 drops of coffee and the minor healing properties of the spider venom, he is just given insanely expensive gear that can solve his problems for him with op AI and explosions. Not saying it's easy of course, he still goes through the ringer, but it takes away from what makes him such an amazing hero. Thanks for this video, it so succinctly sums up what's missing!
Thanks for the lovely video VB! The rooftop shot with the costume were nice touches.
This was a really good video!! For all my analyzing etc I hadn't actually thought about a lot of this, myself. Another thing to be noted about things that are kinda... off and wrong about MCU Peter, aside from class being entirely eliminated from the story, is that his story (the geeky best friend, the mentor whose shadow he wants to step out of, etc) was kind of... stolen? from Miles Morales, the black spider-man. It also makes me think about the whole Peter Parker becoming a rich CEO for some time in the comics. It's just... so removed from who he's always been.
"It also makes me think about the whole Peter Parker becoming a rich CEO for some time in the comics."
That's a legitimate version of Parker in the Multiverse. He even has a metal suit in Spider-Wars.
No Way Home Spoilers:
This is why I really like the end of the movie. Peter is stripped of all of Tony's powers and connections, and finally has to take care of himself in a run down apartment. If they want to keep the franchise going, they HAVE to address his new economic class. I'm really looking forward to how Tom Holland's spider man will be handling "adulthood." No longer coddled by privilege, and having to actually deal with the class issues you describe in the comics.
first video i’m watching of yours, can’t wait to watch more tomorrow!
As well you should, she rocks!
I can't believe this only just got recommended to me. I've been arguing with people in TH-cam comments about the MCU version of Peter Parker for months and this really helped me understand part of the reason why it feels so off to me. Awesome video.
spidey´s back to working class babyyyy
One thing you forget is that vulture and mysterio are both dangerous to civilians. Mysterio threatens the lives of his own workers and vulture sold alien tech and weapons on the black market. Maybe you should've brought that up.
How do you feel about the direction Tom Holland Spiderman is going after No Way Home? Now that Peter is living on his own and pursuing college, I think his story might start looking like the previous versions again, exploring classism and poverty, except this time he will have a very limited or no support system.
that would be interesting, so they are probably going to resolve the problem in the first 5 minutes
still trash
A follow up video would be very interesting after recent developments 👀
This is why I'm pretty excited for the new Spiderman movies. Peter is more alone than ever. No Ben, no Tony, no money, no May, no MJ. He's getting tossed into working class and street level stories with grimier heroes like Daredevil. I just can't wait to see what a talented team of writers will do with that.
"talented team of writers" LMFAOOOOOO
I'd be excited to see some kind of follow-up to this following the release of No Way Home
NWH ending kinda corrects these issues.. or at least is a hint for a much more closer interpretation from the original Peter. Hopefully, after what Peter experienced, he'll mature and have to be completely undependant.
I think NWH is the answer you’re looking for
If Peter really knew about the Sakovia Accords, he’d be on Team Cap.
I think about this all the time, It reminds me of what Andrew Garfield Said when he was asked how would his Peter Parker react to Iron Man
I've seen countless videos analysing each of these movies, and comparing them to see which series of films was the best. This video did the best job putting into words the shortcomings of the MCU version of the character, instead of just saying "Iron Boy Jr". Excellent video!
This really helps organize in my head part of why I don’t like marvel movies which always gets me side eye. Thank you 🙏
Boy are you definitely right but boy did they fix this recently.
I've watched a bunch of your LGBTQ+ videos, which I love. I'm so thrilled that you're just as insightful when tackling issues like this. You had quickly become one of my favourite youtubers as of late, and now that assertion has been cemented. I really wish I was in a financial position to support you on Patreon...someday
Surprised you didn't mention how in the first raimi film Norman Osborn is a defense contractor like Tony stark. He makes a magic eugenics drug that drives him insane then he uses his weapons to commit a terrorist attack at an event literally called "the world unity day festival."
this is one of my favorite video essays and I keep coming back to it 💗
Tom Holland is great in the role, but there are a lot of things I dislike about MCU Spiderman.
I agree and appreciate a lot of what was said in this video. I like MCU'S Spider-man but there's a lot to be said of what's missing or what's being wasted. There are things I simply disagree but I would rather focus on more objective mistakes. Firstly, Peter is actually being exploited for free and it's also never stablished that he inherented any sort of money after Tony's death, only the drones (Which also negates Stark's arc, btw). Although Mysterio doesn't get any sort of redemption, Toomes does hide Peter's identity from other people, willingly. Finally, in no moment of the video you address Peter's relationship with Harry, though the aspect of class has always been a big thing, by the moment his best friend is also a billionaire, I don't believe that Lee meant to create a very critical piece about class.
I never understood why this version of spiderman felt so disingeneous for me, but this is definetely part of it
Ngl the the Ironman movies were my start in the MCU, and while I loved and still love the whole "Tony Stark as Peter's Father Figure" headcanon/concept, now that I think about it more the more I'm icked out about how Tony was willing to recruit a child into a war
There are parts I really like about Tom's performance, but overall I think the direction have pushed Spider-Man to be an avenger rather than a working class hero who struggles with rent and just wants to keep his community safe. I think a few changes could have been done to fix this. Instead of Tony seeking out Peter in Civil War instead Peter should have been alerted to something going down at JFK where Cap and Bucky are trying to get a flight to stop Zemo. He can swing on over and step in to help Iron Man since he likes Iron Man. He realizes he got in over his head and takes a step back. Maybe even rethinking on if he did the right thing. Homecoming can mostly remain the same, maybe get rid of Vulture's connection with Tony and just have him be philanthropist who funds criminals to steal from Damage Control, it can mostly be the same though. Far From Home can also mostly stay the same, but I'd lose Nick Fury and Edith and just have Peter go on this class field trip. Instead the thing he gives to Beck is the Iron Spider Suit the last thing Tony gave him. (This is in reference to Nadovmovies video.) FFH can mostly be the same but instead of being recruited by Fury, after the Hydro Man battle Beck approaches Spider-Man and asks for help. Beck's whole goal is to look like a legit super hero and scam people. Peter makes some mistakes and realizes he is relying on the Iron Suit too much he gives it up and meets with Happy in the Netherlands to regroup.
You pinpointed exactly what i felt was off about mcu peter. Loved the video!!! I'm a fan of you work🙃💜💜
Coming back to this in post-No Way Home, they kind of did throw Peter right back into it. He doesn't have a parent to split the bills with. He doesn't have friends who will let him couchsurf. He doesn't even have an *identity*. I felt like the movie didn't really give that appropriate weight but to be fair, it didn't really have the time.
This video deserves way more views. I love the analysis of the gradual (and not so gradual) changes to Spider-Man's background and character - I, too, grew up watching the 90s cartoon version, and whilst I was definitely not some political mind as a working class kid I did relate more to the Spider-Man I saw in that show than I do to Tom Holland's (very well-played, but nonetheless ideologically different) portrayal.
I love Spider-Man, but I never noticed this. Thanks for pointing it out. It was very interesting.
This essay's thesis is spot on and this video deserves sooooo many more views.
Gotta love that nwh goes back to its roots and now Peter is saving New York solo
Please please please make a follow up video once you’ve seen no way home, I’d be really interested to see how that influences this!
after watching the third addition i'd love to see if you have a follow up!! still a very awesome video
Recently, I had a chance to rewatch Raimi's Spider-Man movies back-to-back and it definitely reminded me why Tobey Maguire's Spidey is my ultimate favorite of all three movie iterations. He's just more... relatable. I'm also from the working class, I too struggle to support my mom and myself in an increasingly unsustainable economy that crushes the little people, I too am a college student trying to manage to pay the bills with a day job I hate, get school work done/grades up, AND balancing all that with my own "Spider-Man life" which is chasing my dream of becoming a paleoartist. All of Tobey's Peter Parker's struggles and pains, I'm living them right now, I've been living them for two decades.
I love Tom Holland's Spider-Man, he's adorable, and I loved Andrew Garfield's grittier, more realistic Spider-Man, but neither of them beat the original Sam Raimi trilogy in the spirit of what Spider-Man is truly about imo. This is my favorite Marvel superhero since I was 12 BECAUSE he's a regular guy from a working class family. He's one of us.
After watching your video, now I look at Tom Holland's Spider-Man movies as a complete betrayal of the character, no matter how funny and cutsie he is. Loved watching this and your other videos, real eye-openers!
just discovered your channel from a friend, the amount of effort you put into these essays really shows. I hope you get that breadtube bread, I'll definitely be supporting as soon as I get a job lol
This is a good video. While I'm personally of the mindset that the MCU isn't exactly "Rah, rah! Come on and join, boys and girls (once you're 18!)" the MCU's prevalence as possible military propaganda cannot be ignored. This isn't the topic most people would think of when discussing the MCU but it is an important one that cannot be ignored and you've done good in discussing it. Cool costume, rooftop and background, BTW
Nice video, and overall I agree! There are, however, a few points where I find the movies to take a SLIGHTLY more complex stance:
1. Vulture is incredibly sympathetic in Homecoming. He's regularly considered one of the least evil villains, as the movie frames in such a way that you want to give him a pass on the whole murdery undercurrent of his actions (including attempting to murder a child, his daughter's date no less). But he doesn't seem to relish in murder or use it as a first option (the movie makes a point that killing Shocker was an accident, albeit one he doesn't lose any sleep over), and importantly he seems shook when Peter saves his life and actively conceals the kid's identity afterward. He's been set up where a redemption would be entirely believable.
2. While Mysterio is not sympathetic like Vulture is, in both cases Stark shown to be in the wrong. Throughout the MCU, Stark is played as having a lot of demons (though few of the bottled variety) and of a complex gray morality. Do the movies do enough to hold him accountable for his actions in the Spider-Man movies? No, definitely not, and I'd say though Civil War claims to hold him accountable for his actions in Ultron, it really doesn't. His punishment is guilt -- but he DOES show this guilt, and we're certainly meant to view him at least somewhat negatively for his recklessness and narcissism.
3. Ike Perlmutter hasn't had any creative input in years. I believe Ant-Man was the last movie he was involved in. This is primarily because Kevin Feige hated catering to him (Perlmutter is also the one who rejected a female villain in Iron Man 3 because "women don't sell toys," and never would have allowed Black Panther or Captain Marvel to be made) and went behind his back to the Disney execs to get Perlmutter removed.
I just think it's inaccurate to refer to these situations as completely cut-and-dry. I agree with your takeaway, but don't believe it's intentional or sinister, just a casual almost Freudian slip of the studios reacting to a buildup of these ideas wired into their DNA.
Stark is a billionaire who CANNOT be held fully accountable for his mistakes, but they still want to show him making mistakes to paint a nuanced character. Can't do "Demon In a Bottle" even though Favreau clearly set it up in Iron Man 2, because this has to be marketed to kids and kids can't know about alcoholism for some reason, resulting a dissonance that creates a billionaire alcoholic who will never get the help he needs and will be showcased as completely fine in spite of his obvious addiction issues.
Then Spider-Man is in the MCU, but it rests entirely on this deal where two studios each want to profit off the other, forcing Spider-Man to be closely tied with Iron Man -- this does take its basis from the comic book Civil War plotline, but in that Spider-Man recognized he'd been manipulated and betrayed Iron Man. Because his presence in the Civil War movie is a last-minute shoe-horn designed to generate profits for studios but not meant to be an actually plot-significant role, he's motivated by a weak and poorly thought-out plot device with no time to develop, and now THIS ridiculous cameo is the basis for his character going forward, a military stooge for a billionaire child-endangering alcoholic.
Trying to make the most of this, Spider-Man's own movies therefore want to paint a grayer light on this issue, but still aren't allowed to actually disown Tony or call him out for the terrible manipulation he's committed against this teenager. Thus, they instead use villains who've been used and discarded by Tony, but are still "evil" lest we root for them over Peter. What's more, because Tony can't possibly discard Peter himself -- that would be too unforgivable (unlike creating a "fun" robotic villain for the Avengers to fight) -- Peter therefore must also have no more money problems (since Tony is rich).
These issues are real and definitely exist in the MCU, just not based in any conscious agenda.
This is a good write up. I do think (especially after watching this video) the MCU Spidey movies fail in showing that working class struggle of Peter Parker, particularly when compared to the Raimi films. But I think despite this inherent oversight going forward, they do a good job of distilling a lot of other great elements of the character. I’ll have to see how I feel after rewatching the movies now with this new insight from the video, but I wouldn’t be surprised if I still enjoy the MCU Spidey movies more than the other ones.
I mean, Tony was right for firing Mysterio, Beck was a narcisist sociopath who threats his coworkers if they don't do exactly what he wants, he doesn't't feel any remorse for manipulating a 16 years old teenager and much less killing people with his illusions. If that guy stayed in Stark Industries he eventually could do something even worse, he wasn't called unstable by Tony for nothing
@@oa-san53 This is a good point. Though I do wonder what happened behind the scenes involving Tony and Mysterio. Because he could have fired him for being a pos. Or he could have just fired him for some frivolous reason. And honestly either would be in his character, especially after seeing the kind of person Tony is throughout the movies. He does get a lot of character development and especially by Endgame has had a lot of growth, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Tony didn’t fire him for just and virtuous reasons.
The problem is we don’t get any real interaction between the two characters, even in flashbacks. Not that it’s necessary in the film. It could go either way. And we don’t know if these horrible qualities of the character shown in FFH were even present when he was working for Stark (well, very likely he has always been like this as a person, but that doesn’t mean Stark even noticed this when he was working for him or if Mysterio started becoming more blatant with his shitty actions after the fact).
I actually like the idea that Stark fired him for legitimate reasons more, though. It gives the movie a kind of meta element to it. The audience can be led to sympathize with Beck, at least on some level, and consider Tony to be in the wrong. But in the reality this is all narcissistic gaslighting on his part. Even to the audience.
It's been really heartbreaking seeing the state of peter parker deteriorate as much as it has, sure he's quite wealthy and dear aunt may is healthy, and you can give me numbers and show how he remains unencumbered, but at the end of the day the most effective display is to be beaten down and still refuse to frown. Not a care in the world is the worst tale to be told as unlimited freedom trivializes the deed done.
it's so refreshing to see someone whose MCU takes are always spot on!
Something I always appreciated about the Raimi films is that May and Ben’s house is full of dated appliances and old furniture. A house that may of been affordable in it’s time but clearly not anymore if they are unable to upgrade. Ben and Peter even have to paint their own kitchen themselves, something which is still fairly labour intensive for a man of Ben’s age because they clearly can’t afford anyone else to do it for them.
This was a great and very well articulated video that explains the feeling of "ickyness" that I can't help but feel whenever I watch the new MCU spider-man movies. I love the character of Spider-man so much, and even the MCU movies have written him as fun to watch and follow, and the villains can be so compelling exactly because of what their story may mean relative to Tony Stark, but then it just feels like if one doesn't hang on to that little mention of Tony's hand in it, by the end of all the spectacle and fireworks, you just end up in a plot of "villain is just bad person, spiderman needs to take them down." I loved the character of Mysterio (can't remember much about Vulture, maybe needs a rewatch) and his ensemble of disgruntled Stark employees, but as soon as you get a feeling of "yeah, Stark WAS an asshole" it turns into them Mysterio going crazy with power and the team tricking a child (as Stark does too, but that isn't addressed) and it's hard to watch the movie and continue empathizing with their motivations. It's like they are designed to turn off any thoughts their character provoke.
You (and the article you cite) make it clear that if they were so bold to address Tony Stark's role any deeper than their surface mentions and glorification, it would just unravel the character and they would need to do a lot of writing to get to a satisfying place. Spider-man putting the pieces together would itself have to be its own 2.5 hr movie if we wanted him to come out with a new ideology to stand on.
LOVED THE VIDEO and amazing work!!
I often think about class in the broader action hero genre of today. I feel like the working class hero like for example in Die Hard has been replaced by a guy who even if he is not explicitly depicted as loaded can always somehow fall back on expensive equipment that would realistically add up to costing millions.
Like even the Fast and the furious franchise is a perfect example. It started out as a movie about a gang of street racers that specifically tune up cheap Japanese cars and the big heist is a shipment of DVD players. Now they are international superspies that are literally going to space.
Crane workers giving Garfield passage was a highlight for me. I got chills when you showed it in your video