Very good analysis! One thing I like about Sam Raimi's Mary Jane, however, is that for all the sexism and damseling- in-distress in those movies, she's actually one of the few love interests in the film franchise that gets to have her own life outside of Peter. Her life doesn't revolver around him, she's not there to help him (and I don't think she needs to); she's has her own dreams and aspirations that she pursues despite him and I remember how that used to piss people off.
I’m really glad you pointed this out! Now that I think of it, even though I like MCU MJ fine, I don’t really know anything about her. But with MJ in the Raimi movies, I could tell you what her life was like growing up and all of her aspirations in life.
I used to really not appreciate how well Raimi’s MJ felt like a real complex person. It took the best parts of MJ’s comic backstory but took out the egotism from the early MJ years. Some of her actions are contentious and not admirable but they make perfect sense for her after what she grew up with and I like that it was explored that she desires stability and a relationship that isn’t anything like her parents’ ugly divorce and she wants to prove she’s worthy of being loved. Her being confused and upset that Peter is kind and says beautiful heartfelt things to her yet constantly distances himself from her and hurts her for his mixed signals. I really like her and I think Kirsten did a fantastic job in the role.
THIS. For all Gwen is praised in the Amazing spiderman movies, she basically stays for and with Peter instead of going to London which always felt wrong to me. It is typical Hollywood romance and not very realistic either. MJ doing her thing each movie at least gives her life beyond the romance like you said.
@@MademoiselleRed1390 Gwen in TASM definitely did her own thing and surpasses him academically and career-wise. It's not as in-your-face as MJ's struggle to get roles and eventually being able to perform, but Gwen did have a life outside of Peter. She willingly ditches her taxi because there was a traffic jam that wasn't moving forward anytime soon so might as well go with Peter for a while, right? Mind you, she wasn't going to ditch London, Peter was the one who was willing to go to London for her. She made an impulse decision to help Peter fight Goblin and Electro - presumably she was thinking that everything will be alright and she can still catch a plane to London later on. So in my mind if Gwen hadn't died that night, she would still go to London and Peter would be the one catching up to her. tl;dr what you're saying about Gwen in TASM is BS
One thing I liked about how they handled aunt may's death in the new movie is that it ultimately wasn't her death that had an impact on Peter, but her life. Her dying didn't cause him to be better, rather it was her life and legacy that did that, and he had to choose to be better DESPITE her death.
@@veelogation3890 Oh I 100% agree, I really wish she hadn't died, I'm just appreciating the breadcrumbs that at least her death had some dignity in that way if that makes sense.
err. it was her pushy morality and saviour complex that got herself killed and got peter, the child that she is responsible for and the guardian of, severely injured. idk. prev mentor figures like uncle ben would say things like "great power comes great responsibility" without ever telling peter what he should or shouldnt do. they isntead give him the values that they believe in and lets him make a choice. she just pushes peter to do what she thinks is the right thing (rehabilitate the anomalies) i think her characterization was really preachy and frustrating, given shes supposed to be a parental figure that looks after peter instead of putting him (and all of new york) into danger by helping him smuggle several super powered individuals into a single apartment. this is all to say that idk what her life's impact was on peter other than uhhh getting him hurt, getting herself killed, and uttering like 1-3 lines reflective of her moral views in all of 3 spiderman movies. i hate tony stark, but his character seemed to play more of an active role in peter's life as far as his decisions as spiderman than may had. thats just sad
A lot of people think Maguire Peter did get a decent moment in NWH. Peter got to save Green Goblin from getting impaled by his glider instead of jumping out of the way. It echoes how Harry jumped in front of his glider to save him in Spiderman 3 and gives him the chance to right a wrong he always regretted (and prevents Holland's Peter from making the same mistake). It's not quite as emotional as Garfield's MJ moment, but still shows some nice character growth.
Peter 2/Tobey stopping Peter 1/Tom from killing Goblin is also a callback to Spider-Man 3, where Aunt May tells Peter to not succumb to mindless revenge, because "revenge is like a poison".
Agreed, It was a great moment. I think Tom Hollond being too angry to stop himself also made sense. He lost Aunt May so angry it but was also that he failed all the villains and now they are putting themselves and everyone in the city in danger. So he is pissed at himself, pissed at the green goblin in side Norman, and just wants just needs them gone.
Lol Andrew Garfield was just like 'hey what if I got to kiss this hot guy on set? Just for the film of course, not because I want to kiss him or anything.' What a legend.
One of the fascinating things about early MJ, is that she's written to be 'the wrong choice' to Gwen's Love Interest status. She's written as fun but also flighty and flawed...which is what made her so popular to begin with. Turns out having a fleshed out personality is more engaging to readers than being on a pedestal, even for female characters. Heck, there's at least one silver-age story where MJ is already helping Spider-man win the day, something I can't remember Gwen or Betty being allowed to do. One of the frustrations I have Spidey adaptations is that a lot of them have this need to make MJ more...respectable? Be it making her the 'girl next door' or the 'smart girl', it feels like there's an aversion to keeping her the funloving, loud, partygirl performer with depth, as if it makes her too irresponsibe and distasteful. I don't think changing her away from those traits is inherently bad, but when we almost never see 'the wrong un' MJ, it it starts feeling like a pattern. Even the PS4 game, while it had a better reason than most to involve her in the game, still needed to change her into a stock girlfriend journalist.
I totally see what you're saying and we're seeing this trope a lot in other media too. It's the same "she wears short skirts, I wear t shirts" early 2000s coming-of-age stuff we've seen forever now. It relies on comparing women against one another and reinforcing the idea that a woman with sexual agency (often dressed up as promiscuity or flightiness) and who's primary strength isn't intelligence is a lesser romantic option. As a result I know nothing about MCU MJ except that she's intelligent, a feminist, and cares about Peter. You could make assumptions about her personality through her attitude and deadpan interactions with others, but it's not like she ever expressly states an interest like when Ned grieves the death of his Lego Death Star.
@@danieneit6830 I'm not a huge fan of MCU Spidey, but I do appreciate that they translated her abrasiveness in some form, as well as giving her an interest in Lit (though I feel like that got lost later). It's the repeated avoidance of MJ's loud, funloving, performer characterisation, as well as Marvel's post-One More Day downplaying of her in favour of 'smart' gf's and superheroine gf's, that make me wary that there's still an idea that MJ isn't enough of what a 'proper' woman for Peter Parker.
Yeah, that was the biggest thing I noticed about the ps4 MJ. While I enjoy how they handled her relationship with Peter a *lot* more than I usually do, it was frustrating that they couldn't seem to figure out how to make her an independent and compelling character without changing her personality completely....
@@danieneit6830 I think she was given plenty of depth, in FFH especially, she likes conspiracy theories and true crime! She’s also a great detective (;
I think you are one of the few people I've seen to thoughtfully critique what's wrong with these properties, while simultaneously acknowledging how much they mean to us, what we, the lowly peasants, like about them, and how they enrich our lives, thus making it even more pressing to solve these issues than if we wrote them off as trash, as it tends to be the case when doing critical readings of mass media.
I think Far From Home completely failed May as a character. She just found out Peter was Spider-Man and they glossed over it when they could’ve told an emotional and heartwarming story developing the relationships between Peter and his mother figure. I also think when looking at the whole of Spider-Man’s supporting cast, the largest presences are May, MJ, and Gwen. Peter in the comics is really defined by this absence of a father figure and the large presence of these women in his life, especially his surrogate mother figure. The MCU replaces that with a parade of replacement father figures and moves Peter’s relationships with these women further and further out of focus. It just bugs me that Tony, Happy, and even Mysterio have been given more weight in Peter’s life than May. Maybe her death immortalizes her and honors her like Uncle Ben or maybe it just casts aside a wasted character with a lot of disregarded potential. Either way May is THE biggest missed opportunity of the Spider-Man movies.
Oh, I do kind of agree with that assessment. MCU May's death doesn't carry the weight that it should be because a lot of the development that happen in her life HAPPENS off-screen. The fact that we never got to see May reacting to Peter's secret was such a waste.
Right. I feel like the writers of MCU killed off Iron Man but couldn't let him go so now they just continue his story through spiderman and its not interesting and as you said, a disservice to the other spiderman characters.
I really do agree. At first I didn't think much about it because I didn't see May's death coming, but now that she was like that in NWH made me wish that they showed more about Peter and May together.
And that's one problem I have with No Way Home and the whole MCU trilogy. Both May and MJ aren't given the depth or development with Peter that they should've had. The movies rely too much on what the audience already knows about Spider-man. We know May and MJ/Gwen are the most important women in Peter's life, but we don't get to see why.
For a girl like me, who only watched the Sam Raimi movies (and mainly loved them for the soundtrack) and never read the original Spidey comics, I didn't know how much this focus on the female characters would impact me. Your way of pointing out systemic issues, while still showing your love for the thing, you are talking about, I think, captures one of your main strengths overall. To not let something be black or white, always letting something be both at the same time. I just love your work! Thank you so much!
Is there a term that encompasses the feeling of ‘I don’t like that this happened and wished it hadn’t, but if it had to happen, I respect it being done this way’? Because that’s what I feel for May’s death in NWH. She could have walked away and been like ‘nope, not my problem to deal with’ but instead insisted they had to help these complete strangers. She didn’t just leave it up to Peter, but helped in whatever way she could. She was the one who knew what Peter’s tingle moment was leading to (save Peter) and made the decision to grab all the cures. She faced down the Green Goblin to protect her nephew, even when she knew she stood no chance. She could have run, but instead she grabbed a pipe and did her best ‘stand alone against the odds’ Captain America impression. May was a really good character and her death only solidified that, but damn do I wish it hadn’t happened. (And yes, I know throwing MJ off the roof just so Garfield could save her was only for his storyline, but damn was it nice to have him actually close the story arc) I have way too many complicated feels for a movie that is basically a pop corn blockbuster lol.
Yeah I think that is the one point on which I disagree with Verily. Aunt May's death did make sense for the them of responsibility. At the start of this movie, Peter was done. He was stressed and harassed from all sides and when it came time to try and save the villains, he wasn't there for it. He saw that they could be helped and needed it, but he was an upset, overwhelmed teen and he said no. He was angry and didn't feel like taking on that responsibility. Aunt May argued against that, and you can kind of see that later when Doctor Strange is going to send them back he begins to hesitate, and ultimately prevents them from being sent back. And then, when she dies for her attempt to help the villains and to save Peter's life, her last words are to tell him that they did the right thing. That despite what it cost them, despite failing, that trying this was a good thing, and that Peter shouldn't let his grief prevent him from trying again. And that is a brilliant bit of characterization and theming for a character who has honestly had very little impact on the themes of the movies. It is more than the Uncle Ben moment. It's not just a lesson for Peter but a statement from May, about who she is and what she believes, a last lesson from a person who has dedicated her life to helping people. And so after all that gushing it's gonna sound a bit weird when I say I didn't really feel anything for May's death. Despite it's tremendous thematic weight, it felt a bit awkward. While I praise that little bit of dialogue for it's elegance, it does feel a bit rushed, given that the setup for May to say that comes from a single short scene. It wasn't perfectly handled and I personally didn't feel much, but I respect the hell out of them for the attempt. I still absolutely love that scene though I doubt in the way the director intended. I really wish we could have seen more Aunt May.
@@MouseOnAJourney You worded that so well! (And I agree, Nicole - in the scope of this jam-packed movie if that had to happen they did it well.) I feel like my main issue with character deaths (especially for female characters in comics/games) is that you're losing this character. You're cutting off anything interesting that could happen with them as a character from now on, and so often that will feel like a waste and not worth it. Don't get me wrong, there are times when a heroic sacrifice can be meaningful. But this didn't feel like it. It felt like a very awkward way to... I don't know, make Tom more relatable to the older spideys? Didn't seem worth it.
i disagree though. it felt so out of character for her given how, in previous movies featuring spiderman, may had never come in to lecture or preach to him about responsibility or how to carry out his duties as a hero. she worries about him, sure, but she had never pushed her input so strongly onto peter. now she comes in and tells him they need help (before even knowing that these characters would likely die if sent back to their world - which is untrue in the case of lizard and sandman) just because norman osborn was emotionally unstable. she had a saviour complex and pushed it onto her teen nephew, asking him to keep norman around to help him, as if peter was a licensed therapist or something. what the hell was peter going to do with norman osborn???? again, this is before their knowledge that the villains were going to die. worse yet, may had no way of knowing at this point if these characters would actually be better off back in their own world, somewhere familiar and recognizable to them. she just assume that peter can save them, and pushes responsibility onto him. again, hes like 17. shes putting the wellbeing of 5 adult strangers that she doesnt know onto the shoulders of her 17 year old nephew who, again, cant really help with the mental/emotional issues of norman osborn like she demanded him to, much less that of like 4 other superpowered individuals at least twice or thrice peter's age. i can understand if she said this after knowing they'd all die, but she was already pushy on it prior. and that's what makes me so irked that not only would she be someone with a saviour complex, she'd be someone with a saviour complex that she projected onto a literal teen. if may had any semblance of character that focused on responsibility, it would've come up earlier in the movies. it hadnt! if may had been a more active maternal figure and mentor to peter than fuckin tony stark, her advice and words would have been meaningful to him at earlier points of the story. they weren't! they put all this involvement here, in the last movie, just to tie back to tobey's spiderman with the great power/great responsibility line, and then kill her. (small note to say that if may had played bigger roles and said or done things to influence peter's morality and decisions before that i simply overlooked: mg apologies and im open to having less of a hard stance, i totally accept that my memory of homecoming is splotchy at this point.)
Garfield saving MJ wasn’t just for his character arc but also he was preventing Holland from going though what he did. From becoming bitter and “holding back his punches” Holland had already lost May. Losing MJ would have been too much for him.
Yes! I remember when he was talking about the possibility of Peter being bisexual way back when, and even about him being played by a non-white actor, or being a woman-things the comics were already doing (except making him bi-bridge too far), but hadn’t been brought to a live action film. Given the roles Andrew Garfield has played in other movies and plays, this makes sense for him but might very well be why they didn’t continue with him as an actor.
The best part is that now people are demanding another movie with Andrew as Spider-Man, and he has the leverage to say that he’ll only return if he can explore his bisexuality! Sony would be throwing money away if they didn’t go through with TASM 3, so we might actually get this!
Spider-Man doesn't need to be bisexual, in most media it's ok to have a gay superhero but to change a character's sexual orientation just for shits and gigs is not ok. If you want a LGBT Spider-Man, consult marvel and write your own comic with your own character, or there's plenty of rule 34s (if that's what gets you hot). Peter Parker is a *straight* Male, he will never be Gay or Bisexual, get it out of your heads. Spider-Man will outlast you long before you're dead he's bigger than you, it's just going to make you look like an asshole. Stop with this, you're the problem, you're the cancer in the fan base.
I think it's worth noting the MCU reboot is more based on Miles Morales from the 2010s. He's younger and goes to an advanced school alongside his best friend who's chubby and is his guy in the chair. He's a young boy thrust into a world where superheroes already exist and regularly interacts with the Avengers who see him as a child. Ned is literally copied from Ganke. A lot of Peter's life was about money issues and taking care of his elderly aunt, which they completely threw away by making her younger.
@@ReaperBlaze76 If a quote from a bad movie is the BEST comeback you have then you're too hilarious. And if you think MCU's Ned Leeds isn't just ripping off Ganke, then you're just stupid.
There's a real subset of toxic male fans who hate Raimi's MJ, because all she does is scream and bounce around from boyfriend to boyfriend. Like they completely miss how her upbringing has left her longing for male approval, and how the only guy who really sees her for who she is keeps randomly pushing her away. They just want her to shut up and be Pete's property I guess.
exactly!!! the other day i was about to watch the spiderman 2 with my sister and i told her that "Mj is really annoying" and then we watch the movie and I realize that she wasn't, she wasn't perfect but most of her traits were understandable considering the toxicity in her family. it's just that i had that mindset because that's what i felt when i watched the movie when i was younger, i was so impressed and my sister thought i was crazy to think mj was just a hollow character, she found her so complex! it's really interesting to see the new generations react to movies from the past
I couldn't disagree more I am not male (not that, that matters) but my problem with Raimi's MJ is yes, all she does is go from boyfriend to boyfriend and scream. The former however, I would argue is because Peter wants to be her boyfriend, so we have to know if that space is vacant or not (I personally didn't read it as character choice but it being from the point of view of the male protagonist) for example, it made her character seem well questionable at times - stating she fancies Spidy while Aunt May is in hospital and later kissing Parker while in the funeral for her current boyfriend's father. Scream is obvious, making her nothing but a damsel in distress (once or twice fair enough but throughout the whole trilogy? Seem a bit much) which again is only used to motivate Peter. The whole looking for male approval - I did not read that at all. We see once, maybe twice her father being abusive but (I personally..) didn't see it how it ever effected her or it ever being brought back - one obvious place would have been in the 1st movie when Norman is heard having a go at her.. outside of her wanting to be a movie star, she to me reads pretty 2D and something that is desired by the male protagonist. Also, a genuine question; why does Peter "love" MJ? Outside of once being told he thought she was an angel which, to me it says lust/ a crush at most (IMO we should have gotten a reason in 3rd movie but we meet them when they are close to breaking up). I want to lastly add; I grew up with these movies and still have emotional attachments to them but (for me) MJ just wasn't written well.
I wish you had also mentioned how the PS4 video game handles Aunt May’s death WAY better too - she wasn’t just randomly killed by the villain, rather she made an active choice to help the homeless citizens of NYC, as she had done throughout her career, during the game version of a deadly pandemic. And how even as she lay dying from the virus with Peter willing to give her the sole antidote she instead accepted her death & encouraged Peter to let her go and use the one antidote for the greater good to make vaccines for the city. Teaching Peter the lesson of great power & responsibility while still giving her agency up to the end was just *chef’s kiss*
Oh my god the fact that part of the reason Andrew could have been fired was because he kept annoying Sony about wanting spidey/Peter to get a boyfriend is so hilarious and amazing (but also like sad and depressing bc homophobia)
It just like the image of every meeting with Sony Andrew just being like “...yeah cool cool cool.... but how about we give spidey a boyfriend???” And them just sighing hcjckghdjvjv
I heard a rumor that he got so f🤬in drunk that the Next day he was too hungover to atend a meeting with Amy Pascal & The studio big wigs (this all taking place in BRAZIL!) & to her that was the last straw, so they terminated him to rather "start fresh"
I kind of appreciate Tobey Maguire's reluctance to reveal any details about his Peter's continued adventures, especially considering that he managed to keep his characterization so strong in spite of that reluctance; it allows the fans to fill in the gaps.
I had to scream with laughter at "some medieval slum called Europe" Dutch people have still not shut up about the unintenionally hilarious portrayal of the Netherlands in Far From Home
I do think May had a little more agency this time though, she helped Peter cure Doc Ock, and she tried to help him cure the goblin, although the cure was ineffective, she still tried. She even had a similar death to Ben, in that she died trying to stop someone Peter didn't. Even when Peter told her to run and save herself, she decided to stay, and I think her death was much more heroic than it's given credit for
I agree thoroughly with the fact that NWH was basically Peter failing to internalize all the themes around him. But I also want to give it credit that this was at least to some degree on purpose. As positive as the victory was, it still felt like the true origin story of this Spiderman, and he'll have to make up for his mistakes through the next saga. So the one-sided decision at the end felt more like him having no other choice and assuming responsibility for his past mistakes than the moment where he should share the burden with others. This might be giving them too much credit, but I don't think we're supposed to agree with Peter's narrative in NWH, and that overtime he'll come to put into words after having to learn the hard way the cost of his actions.
I think aunt May’s death still serves a greater purpose than MJ in the first movie because she died as a result of asking Peter to save the villains. If they had sent them back they would have died early and may asked Peter not to but they were double crossed. Mays dying words have significance because she still thinks Peter should try and save EVERYONE even her murderers. I think it’s safe to compare her sacrifice to uncle Ben though I will note Ben’s sacrifice was much more visual, which is important in this medium. May’s sacrifice of safety has to be contemplated first, while the men who die as a sacrifice do so directly
Ned made Peter promise to find them, and MJ insisted too, and they had the whole "wait to tell me you love me when you find me again" thing. Peter feeling like he shouldn't tell them because of danger at the end makes sense because that's what many people do when they are stressed and traumatized etc, they internalize their burdens and don't reach out. I think its good and emotional and hopefully we get to see him learn how to incorporate his loved ones back into his life and find balance
Comic wise, Mary Jane seemed progressive for her time. Yes, she was the “not like other girls” trope, but many loved how she was able to speak her mind, make her own decisions, and paves her own way. She doesn’t do what the man wants her to do. To be honest, it has been a long time since I read them, so I may have forgot some things, but that is the impression I got. Film wise, we need to give the Raimi version some flack. There are many types of women and some women have that damsel in distress quality. Some are gentle, kind, maybe meek people. That is not a bad thing. While I do not like how they steered away from the original MJ, i respected her working hard and following her dreams. She found a way to get out of her toxic home life. These are traits to admire. She is a loyal friend despite the dramatic love triangle she has between Peter and Harry. For people who say she is weak, remember she was ganged up on. She did not have super strength. She was backed up in a corner and could not escape so it made sense that she needed saving. I think internally, she has built a tough skin considering what her life involves. I get criticizing how the writers may have not given her enough nuance and depth as other versions of her character. I get criticizing her for not being like her comic counterpart, but I think it is sexist when we don’t consider Raimi’s MJ as feminist because she has qualities even women make fun of. There are many type of women and many types of feminism.
I think calling comic MJ an NLOG isn’t fair. NLOGs typically focus on their own lack of femininity (wearing makeup, putting work into appearance, etc.) MJ was a model and movie star.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 i depicted her that way because of her personality was treated as different from other girls and stood out to the men. For the time that it was written, she also didn’t take crap from anybody. I feel the “not like other girls” trope also involves personality not just the person’s looks.
I mean, as someone who is gentle, kind and generally 'softer' personality wise, I really disliked MJ in the Sam Raimi films, especially the first one (haven't watched the 2nd and 3rd in a while, maybe it gets better). The problem is more that she lacked depth especially in that first movie. She was just the very tropey 'pretty girl with douchey boyfriend who never noticed the MC who needed saving'. She was 2 dimensional and flat. It never felt like her personality was naturally how she was as a person, it felt like a trope designed to make Peter look heroic. Every man in her life treats her poorly, so Peter looks even more The Hero for treating her well. And sometimes the mistreatment she experienced just rubbed me entirely the wrong way, because again, as someone who _does_ have abusive parents, it felt like it was constructed to make her a damsel to save, and not an actual 3 dimensional character whose feelings and agency are centred within these events happening in _her_ life. It only mattered how these events related to Peter. It honestly felt very exploitative to me at times. Like who cares how MJ feels about the trauma she just experienced - Peter saved her! Peter believes in her! Look at how heroic he is! Yes she is not weak for needing to be saved, but why does the story feel the need to compulsively put her in these situations only to make Peter look heroic? What does it do for _her_ character, that doesn't wind up being something mostly relevant to Peter's story or her relationship with him? Nothing. That's the issue. Even softer quiter women's have feelings about their own mistreatment, and those feelings matter more than how it affects and motivates the men around them. I have a personality like you described so I'm always looking for women in film to represent that, but far too often people just don't write female characters well, and MJ is no different. The issue is not that she is soft and kind. The issue is that those aspects of her character feel like they were contrived specifically to flesh out Peter as a character. And it's fine if that's a side effect of her character, but she has to feel like an actual _person_ on her own. Too often in the first film, she just doesn't.
@@Lisa_Flowers can’t argue with that. Good point. I just did not want her good qualities to go unnoticed, but I do agree she could have been written better.
@@gabrielleduplessis7388 I appreciate that. I agree that too often personalities like mine go kinda unappreciated in feminism, so I'm glad someone cares. Mysogynistic men pedestalize and benefit off of personalities like that, and try to beat other women into being that way. So feminism can try to compensate for that by validating women who are louder, or more abrasive, or outspoken, and not validating softer women because why bother? They're already validated by society, right? Yes, but no. Women who happen to fit more into patriarchy's mould aren't necessarily appreciated by partriarchal society - they're just easier to control. They fall between the cracks and get kinda forgotten by all sides when they're not being exploited. I want to like MJ because on some level she's relatable, but in the first movie at least it's not people appreciating women like her, it's people exploiting them. Appreciating women who are kind and soft also means respecting their agency and complexity in the specific way they express it, even if it's with a quiet voice. From what i've read MJ becomes this in later films, so that seems like a good thing.
Into the Spider-Verse is definitely my favourite Marvel movie overall. For live action, it's probably No Way Home, so how dare you say things about it that are completely true and have prompted me into a second, more critical watch.
I really enjoyed NWH but the more I thought about it afterwards the more mad I got. The only single character that is improved for being in the crossover is Garfield-Spidey (Dafoe does a good job too tbf). Everybody else is flattened to make room for all the characterr and plot stuff they wanted to do for hype.
This movie would have been a lot better if instead of Macquire and Garfield we got Daredevil and one other Netflix hero (Maybe Jessica). They just wanted a cut of that Spider-verse pie, so they made a diet version of their own.
Nwh spoilers // YESSS this is everything I’d been thinking!!! They really did MJ a disservice removing her agency to move the plot at all, and I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how aunt May’s death was like uncle ben’s at all!!
Part of me hopes that it was intentional and done to set up that even in this seemingly better-for-everyone-else ending is still Peter messing up, removing MJ's agency in the situation will not keep her safe. Maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit but at the same time I cant see them drawing so much attention to how MJ wants to make decisions as a couple and not just Peter calling the shots and then have THAT ending and not be doing something with it
@@fangsabre i really do hope it's that and it would be awesome if they went that route and im hoping they do!! i'm a bit more pessimistic bc it's not unheard of for the mcu to contradict itself thematically and for them to treat its characters poorly
IMO, what made May’s death work and got me to overlook the slightly sloppy writing they gave her was the acting from Marissa Tomei and especially Tom Holland.
MJ'S crush on peter was sprinkled around throughout the trilogy, but in FFH it happened so suddenly, one minute she's flipping Peter off like a 3 year old then the next she's frenching him on a bridge.
Let’s be real- the true reason Garfield was was pushing for a bi Peter wasn’t representation….. he just wanted to have a make out scene with Michael b Jordan 😳
Love this and agree wholeheartedly! However… no mention of the inverse situation in Spider-Gwen’s introduction when they “fridge” Peter? I guess it feels different because it’s crossed with a tragic victim becoming the villain arch when he becomes the Lizard. Also the Spider-Women crossover is such a fun “Girls Brunch Interrupted” story! I didn’t know they were considering adapting it! As a young millennial/elder zoomer I have a much closer connection to Jess, Silk, Gwen and Miles as characters than I do to Peter. Not that I don’t love him, but it’s more like how you love movies made before you were born compared to the ones from your childhood.
With Lizard-Peter's death, I really don't know if it is a bad thing, despite being a fridge. I know that sounds terrible so I'll do my best to explain. Like, I think that practically, Lizard-Peters death is no different from the dead parent trope. This is a trope I am personally tired of. It reduces a character's life to their death having an impact on someone else, just like Lizard-Peter. But at the same time, people do die and that does affect the people they knew. And Lizard-Peters death isn't like, skipped like other fridgings. You think of Gwen Stacy's death in Amazing Spider-Man 2 and really all that did was make Peter sad for a little while and then pick himself back up. It was extremely brief, like a few scenes. And the same can almost be said about Gwen, except Peter's death drives her whole arc and a lot of her characterization in the film. Her arc is about opening up again, and she is noticeably getting more comfortable interacting with Miles throughout the film coming to care for him and returning to her dimension feeling less alone. A lot of this comes through in the voice acting so idk how planned it all was but that is what I took away. For me all that makes Lizard-Peters death a positive. I'm sure they could have written it in a way so that his death wasn't given meaning by one person who was sad about it, but at the same time that is kinda true to life. Maybe it would of been better if they told the story a bit more, to give his death and life a bit more meaning while retaining the fact that sometimes you can only know a person vicariously. Idk, does anyone have any thoughts on all this? I'd be happy to hear your opinions.
@@MouseOnAJourney I think with the "refrigerator" trope the problem is not just that the character is killed to further the story of the protagonist, but also how it removes the agency of the victim. A close one's death as a plot device is not inherently bad. Even when the victim dies without agency, that can be truly tragic and be an intriguing plot point. The problem arises when this happens too often and when one demographic (women) are overrepresented as the helpless victims. With Peter, he still has agency in designing his own demise (creating the Lizard serum). He is not just killed off by an outside source, e.g. by some other villain, but rather becomes the villain himself. He himself actively chooses to pursue the serum, although, with undesired consequences. So, I think Peter's death is not as much a fridge as when Gwen died. Peter still holds agency in being active in the events that lead to his death, even if the choices he make are flawed. On the other hand, Gwen is killed by an outside source (The Green Goblin) and never speaks a word. So yes, Peter in Gwen's world is written to simply die to further Gwen's development. But Peter still gets to have agency in his death unlike the women stuffed in the refrigerator.
I will always have a soft Spot for Raimis MJ and as the time goes on i appreciate her character a lot more i think Raimi did a good job with MJ in his movies, she isn't a feisty and fierce as in the animated series or in the spectacular series but she fit the story raimi was aiming to tell, her character is understandable and complex, you know where she is coming from and why she acts that way, and it really does bug me when raimi fanboys get pissy about the fact that she doesn't make her life revolve around pater or refuse to accept that she is allowed to make bad choices, people love talk about how flawed Peter is but will shit on MJ for it. Raimis MJ, like Peter is just a regular person who craves love and affection because she comes from abusive household, she dreams of becoming an actress, we are shown her lows, highs and lows again of her career, she loves peter because he is the only one who she doesn't need to put up a facade when talking to him. however despite the fact she loves him she accepts his rejection and tries to live her own life, even though it's dishonest she respects his boundaries and she is not afraid to put her foot down at peters mixed messages and express her annoyance at him, because just like peter her decisions were also not easy to make, the movies always allow her to make a choice both good and bad and they parallel with peter. As much as i love gwen in TASM her life in the movies always revolve around peter (or at least a huge chunk of it) and she gets praised from the fanboys for being 'the better girl'. MJ from MCU is fine character but her only defining trait is her pessimistic personality, we know nothing about her life besides that she used to not like peter in the first movie then she fell in love with him in the second and now helps him in the third. These 2 characters mostly get praise from having their lifes revolve around Peter but They have a Problem when Raimis MJ has her own and it really says a lot. also and i just have to add this, but i cannot stand the hypocrisy among raimi fanboys who lose their marbles over MJ 'jumping from boyfriend to boyfriend' but are perfectly fine with Peter still trying to persue MJ when she is still in a relationship? they also call MJ annoying when she tells Peter to stop sending these mixed messages at her when she is being perfectly reasonable. just because we are ment to root for peter to get together with mj doesn't mean his actions are any less selfish.
I think May's great responsibility and power speech was in reference to having compassion for these villains. I think given the way they are often treated and really robbed of their agency in these other movies by serums or devices it was nice to see them given a chance to improve themselves.
something i personally like about the mcu iteration of MJ and the "damsel in distress" trope is that it doesn't just feel like she's "spider-man's girlfriend". to me, she feels more like one of peter's (only two) friends (even tho she's his gf) and this is strengthened by the MJ x peter x ned dynamic. sure, she experiences a sort of "death" at the end of the movie, but so does ned, and peter is clearly upset over losing the both of them.
One other thing I liked about far from home's MJ being rescued scene is that after Peter disabled the drones trying to kill her she takes it as an opportunity to join the fight. All the other people are like "glad that's over" while she grabs a weapon and runs into the street.
I actually felt like the current Spider-Man films are an homage to the light hearted silver age. I love the idea of him graduating high school leads to a darker, more isolated chapter
Oh, you will LOVE Implicitly Pretentious' videos then. He makes a lot of stuff about the Silver Age era, as well as how MCU Spider-Man is not the "Iron Boy Jr." many people seem to think he is.
One quote from the Raimiverse that I remember and live by to this day, is when MJ said 'Everybody needs help sometimes, Peter. Even Spider-Man' to Peter. Superior or inferior, at the end of the day we all need each other.
I would love your take on the mess that is feminism girl boss Black widow the movie that came too late. Also I remember when Kingsman Secret Service was my favorite comic based film, but then they had to ruin it’s potential with the second movie killing off Roxy aka Lancelot in the first five minutes seemingly arbitrarily and/or for shock value?? all so we could have a rehash of the first movie with a duo of eggsy and harry as opposed to something actually fresh: a duo of Eggsy and Roxy working together.
oh god yeah a deep look at girl boss Black Widow would actually be amazing. it's honestly awful how they treated her and then tried to make it all better.
I do think there is a pretty big criticism to raise against the PS4 Spider-Man game's handling of MJ, in that they squeezed her into a completely different character mold in order to give her agency in the story, and to fans of MJ, it feels like they sacrificed a lot of what makes MJ who she is in the process, giving us a character who only shares her name and hair color. Like, I get why they did it, because they wanted to integrate her story into what the game was doing, but at the same time it feels like the 2018 equivalent to Gerry Conway's problem in 1973: there was a narrow view of what they could imagine to do with the character. The superhero's journalist girlfriend is as old as the superhero itself, after all, and has been an all too frequent well to draw from when superhero writers want the love interest to be an active part of the story. That isn't who MJ is, though, and I wish the dev team had workshopped it a little more to come up with an idea that would have fit her better. Great game, otherwise, that part just felt weird throughout. Also, thanks for your honest assessment of No Way Home. Even as a big fan of the Raimi movies (all three, third especially, don't @ me), all through the hype cycle I couldn't manage to feel anything but tired about it, just in anticipation of all the problems you mentioned. It all just sounded like my favorite gum was coming back in style, and dumped onto an iteration of the franchise I haven't been enjoying. I'll catch it when it hits VOD, probably, but no sooner than that.
I think saying this movie was just fan service is pretty reductive. This movie was a huge step forward for the marvel movies in at least one way, in that it was actually about recognizing the underlying problems that create criminals and trying to help them rather than just brute forcing it like every other superhero movie. I’ve seen movies that exist solely to thrive off nostalgia and they don’t try this hard. Choosing this of all marvel movies to be hyper critical of feels pretty tone deaf.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 you're doing a lot of assuming in that last sentence that this is the one marvel movie i've been critical of, especially when i said i feel too tired to even see it after not liking the last two spider-man movies. sorry if it's tone deaf to not have much faith for how well they handle "addressing the underlying problems that create supervillains" when the mcu has been repeatedly tone deaf on those cause itself.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 this peter has killed 2 working class villains who ultimately was just trying to survive and make profit off of capitalistic bosses who took advantage of their work. that aside, this movie IS fanservice. the rehabilitation narrative was pushed onto peter by the saviour complex preaching that may had put on peter. she essentially put the wellbeing of 5 adult strangers she did not know, all of which who had the capacity to be dangerous, above that of the teenage minor that is meant to be under her care. she put her ward at risk, and then herself at risk, which puts peter in a difficult financial and social situation. her priorities are shitty for a guardian of a literal minor. if peter had come to the conclusion for rehabilitation himself, id be okay bc i still think it's poor judgment (he could be causing far more deaths by having so many superpowered individuals in one universe) but hes a child, so poor judgment is expected. sure, with great power comes great responsibility, but as a guardian, she is irresponsible.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 That doesn't come across when you say it as a reply to my comment, especially without specifying that. And you're _still_ doing just as much assumption about Verity with that last sentence, especially given how she has made her opinions more public, with not only other videos that have criticized Marvel movies, but one that was wholly about her misgivings with how the MCU has handled Spider-Man. The statement that criticizing No Way Home "of all movies" is tone deaf is no less disingenuous no matter who you're directing it toward, especially if you're experiencing that criticism in a total vacuum. Nothing produced on that scale, and nothing involved with the kind of companies that are behind it, should ever be above criticism, no matter what clumsy attempts at progress you're giving them credit for.
I like the PS4 MJ, but I have an issue with two moments of her character: 1. While she is right in not wanting to be treated like a fragile damsel, the fact that she broke into a military base without any tool or training to defend herself in case things went wrong and still got mad at Peter for acting like she was made out of glass. Like, come on now, the first thing Peter saw when he reached the base was a guy pointing a gun to her face, cut the guy some slack. 2. When she is looking at the sculptures and paintings at the start of the game, she critiques Peters choice to wear a mask, saiyng that if she was a superhero she would want to be recognized by the things she did. That ticked me off a lot considering that the mask is the only thing preventing his loved ones (MJ included) from being targeted every single week by some random criminal or a super villain.
Also, I’m absolutely positive that Tobey!Spidey died in a different cut of the film. I bet either test audiences hated it or they decided it made the film too about him rather than about Tom!Spidey. I enjoyed how he played the wise mentor role, though. It was nice.
Personally, I think comic MJ is one of the best characters in comics. I feel like she’s a better role model than any of the movie adaptations. She’s confident in herself and knows what she wants in a career and relationship. And she understandably struggles with Peters double life and how to support him in that life while maintaining her own identity. Ive never been a fan of Rami’s MJ, mainly because she’s never really been that much of a damsel in distress. Especially in the recent comics. Two of my favorite recent comic runs were the Amazing Mary Jane and Renew Your Vows. Both take all the characters in a direction that I loved. Usually I’m not a fan of when MJ gets powers because I like that her strength comes from her will, but it actually works really well in Renew Your Vows. She’s not just a female version of Peter when in the suit, she still keeps her unique character traits.
@Erik Kemeey I like her aloof energy and dry sense of humor, but I think having Ned be Peters best friend from Homecoming detracts from their connection. We don’t really get to know her at all in Homecoming so it’s a little tough to get behind their pairing in Far From Home. If she and Peter were friends from the beginning and we got see more of her, I think I’d like her more than I already do. A lot of my opinion on her is shaped by Zendaya’s performance and not the writing. My biggest issue with her is with her name. To me, calling her Michelle Jones instead of Mary Jane was a choice made so that they could backpeddle on calling her MJ in case audiences didn’t like her. Especially since they just now said her surname is Watson. They should’ve had the balls to call her Mary Jane Watson because there’s no reason MJ has to be a white Red head as long as you capture the essence of the character. Though, I will admit, I am upset that Zendaya never dyed her hair red for the role. I’ve seen her with red hair and she could make it work.
@@zerotohero1483 I couldn't agree more! (Honestly, I hope that MJ has finally red hair in those new Spidey's movies. I mean, she got in college, maybe she changed to be more like her comic version)
So apart from Tom Holland's Spiderman films & MCU stuff..I didn't watch Andrew Garfield's Spiderman movies, probably only watched the 1st Spiderman, but tell me how much I loved the film, because as you said it was an e v e n t! And shoot I was here for it! It was soooo interesting to learn about the women in Spiderman comics and how it played into the movies (made me feel disappointed as I was learning it.. ) But like you, I ultimately still thoroughly enjoyed and loved the movie- so I will be taking the fake nostalgia it made me feel and running away with it! Thanks for such a fun video!
Just in the patron's part I could notice that she is wearing spider-gost costume inside a refrigerator. I like this lil detail bc bsides gwen been given agency by making her a spidey, her death is still echoing on mainstream and they been doing gwen's death over and over again, even when the character herself had been theoretically redeemed in comics and sony's animation movie.
Ikr! He promised her and Ned he would remind them who he was. Even if it didn’t work out, he should have at least tried. It was their decision to continue to be a part of his life, yet the story framed it as him doing something heroic by not telling them, but that wasn’t just his decision to make.
In re analyzing No Way Home honestly, as much as I love it, it's a transitional movie, which isnt surprising given that it's the first TRUE film of phase 4, as well as being the first Spider-Man MCU film that doesnt rely on Tont Stark or the after effects of his death. Although that itself is ironic because it does kindof feel like Spider-Man is effectively taking the Iron Man role in these new Avengers, not necessarily in terms of character role (although we'll have to wait till the next Avengers film to know) but rather in how his movies are setting up the universe. Everybody else is getting 1 solo outing, except him. He gets 2 before his first run as a Veteran Avenger. It also ties off/ potentially restarts the previous Spider-Man franchises, gives us a new starting point on Peter learning responsibility, and gets peter to a new point in his life where he has to truly make his way as his own hero, now with no support. I'm hoping that his erasing MJ and Neds memories is part of its nature as a transitional movie, that this decision will have a real impact on how Peter handles the world around him, realizing that even this might not keep MJ safe and in fact may make things worse since she now doesnt know that she might be in danger. I hope the writers arent blind to how disrespectful it would be to have MJ be a more more confident and narratively autonomous character all through the movies but especially in this one, only to actually get her memories erased against her will and lose all that agency.
I hate how my instincts tell me to get immediately defensive in discussions like this. I know better, but the instinct is still there, and I'm a bit ashamed of that.
I'm the same most of the times but it's great to acknowledge the feeling, then it will be more easy to actually listen to others and maybe change the mind a little (or a LOT) or maybe find more arguments to defend your position, it's very interesting actually.
There's no shame in having a different opinion and thinking by yourself, just in being rude about it. If you don't agree with what she's saying, then don't! Develop arguments to show people what you believe, just don't forget to listen to the other side, because opinions can always change. Me being a woman, I don't agree with half the arguments that video brings (actually, I don't agree with like, 60-80%), but I still saw the whole thing and took my own notes.
It's like, I know the did it do he doesn't have to drag them into his life and get them in danger and I understand, but then it's also like, "just tell them already, I can't handle this"
@@riveringleaf5568 and to me it's like.... it's not up for him to decide what's best for them? mj and ned made it abundantly clear what they wanted him to do and he decided not to let them in so did he Really make the choice for them?
This was an absolutely amazing video! I was captivated by every word. I will say aunt mays death in no way home received a lot of backlash for “discrediting uncle Ben” and it brought to my attention that the problem is just that aunt may said it and a general discrediting of a woman’s voice in this comic book movie. As far as the females being used as a prop I agree and disagree, to me, Spider-Man is a tragic story in general. Especially with no way home it’s hammered in that “this is the fate/cost of being Spider-Man” the moral of Spider-Man is choices. He chooses to separate Peter and SM and continues to hide himself and these are the results of his actions. The literal blood sacrifices of loved ones need to be made for his origin to be complete.
I had no idea about that "keep Peter straight" thing and it is literally SO upsetting to me I legit wanna cry. I've seen Peter as bi for sooooo long, I think partly because I am bi and just extremely relate to him as a character but also because, and I'm not totally sure why, it just makes a lot of sense to me. He just screams bi energy and knowing Marvel is preventing that from happening - or at least was or is for the time being, whatever - really upsets me. Anyway, loved the video and agreed with all of your points. I love pretty much every Spider-Man movie, he's my favorite superhero, I think it'd be impossible for me to hate a Spidey movie. But feminist ideals are definitely not a well-focused priority, aside from Into The Spider-Verse which is the best Spidey movie, and the PS4 game is one of the best pieces of Spidey media as well so 👀👀👀hope the films eventually learn some lessons from them. Quick side note and sorry if someone else asked this, but where did you get the Gwen hoodie?! I desperately need that in my life.
i really enjoyed your critique! you articulated your points very well and brings some points together i hadn't connected before. Also, slight tangent: when you brought up the issues with consent and peter erasing mj's memories & just deiding things for here it reminded me of the utter erasure of Peggy Carter at the end of the last avengers movie. cap came in and apparently completely rewrote peggy's narrative which canonically was pretty badass and a WHOLE FrEAKING SHOW about her dealing with sexism in the 50s-60's (which of course got cancelled cuz "bad ratings" despite the fact that it was doing better than more male lead ones at the same time) seemingly without discussing it first because Steve somehow "deserved it" after everything he sacrificed? Like peggy was just a war wife waiting for her man to return from the war and not a whole amazing character on her own, a prize just waiting around for him? yeah, men taking agency away really gets to me and the whole franchise has some serious issues on how it treats its women.
I really like how thorough this video is on mentioning all of the Spider-man properties :) I like how they gave MJ agency in the PS4 Spider-man game, but I can't help but wish that they did it without making her a reporter--it makes her too much like Lois Lane and too little like MJ, who is a strong and self-actualized woman in spite of or actually because of her job as an actress and model. I wish the gamemakers had the confidence to show that a woman can be in charge of her own life and a good role model even in stereotypically "female" occupation.
I really loved "Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse" when it came out. To me, it is the best Spider-Man movie by and so far, really amazing; I also love how it isn't just a retelling of a comic that is being captured frame by frame 1:1, but that it makes such a good use of just so many trademarks of the artistic language unique to the cinema, and that at the same time it pays great homage to comics as an art-form in their own right: Alle these little aesthetic references to the comics origin of Spider-Man and the Spider-Verse were amazing and beautiful to watch and marvel at.
I think it’s still flawed to have Michelle Jones totally equated to the MJ of the comics? They shouldn’t have named her MJ if they wanted to make an entirely new character (who Michelle totally is) but they caught her up in the same stuff alas. I read someone pitching that MJ in the MCU postNWH left herself a note “FIND PETER/YOU KNOW SPIDER-MAN” or something that wouldn’t be erased by the spell & it would lead her to finding a workaround from the spell just so she could trigger her own memories & yell at him. Because yeah, Michelle does deserve to rip into Peter because he did violate that promise. He was punished for being a dumbass, but so was Ned and MJ. Which, is unfortunate. I hope it gets followed up on. Idk I didn’t find NWH nostalgic persay? Because I literally had never seen any Spider-Man media except films that came out after 2014. So? Idk?
Idk about this, but in fact you can see in the credits, when they show Zendaya's name, there's written above her head "Who's Peter Parker" or something like that.
i did feel weird after watching new spiderman movies. despite the loaded adventures and action scenes (i even cried when andrews spidey saved mj) i felt like nothing really happened. and now i know why I ALREADY SAW ALL OF THIS
It's so cool to see a person who has transitioned but still identifies as genderqueer. I'm transmasculine and take T and plan on getting top surgery but still identify as nonbinary. Anyways, it makes me feel very valid and happy. Wonderful video as always.
I know im an internet stranger and it doesn't matter much but just wanna remind you that being nonbinary, it doesn't look a certain way and you don't owe people androgeny my friend. And also I hope you're doing ok these days 💜
love love love your video! i'm personally petitioning for Felicia Hardy to be introduced in the next Spider-man movie. I think post nwh Peter and her would be very interesting to see together and her story line should definitely be able to break the mold!
As another commenter pointed out, one thing I prefer about Raimi MJ over any other video game and MCU adaptation is that she has her own life which doesn't revolve around Peter, if we don't count those moments when she gets abducted every movie ... Otherwise, she has her own thing going on. MCU adaptation is also superior to the video game adaptation, because in video games it felt like the writers were overcompensating, like a woman who is feminine and is a model, cannot possibly be an interesting character or a strong person, so they had to make her Lois Lane and on top of that give her absurd amounts of plot armor that even Spider-man doesn't have, in the second game it's gotten to the point where she can take a few shots to her face and one-shot literally every regular enemy in the game who usually take a couple hits and gadgets for Spider-man to defeat, it feels patronizing frankly and also makes the said goons hard to be taken seriously. And yeah, game MJ also doesn't seem to have a life outside of Spider-man. Imagine if we had a supermodel\ actress MJ and they would live together in some NY loft with MJ basically bringing home the money while Peter does the hero stuff. Pretty interesting dynamic I think. MJ subsidizing Spider-man lol.
I keep having conversations with people about the most recent spiderman film because I had hoped MJ wouldn't be diminished to just a plot point and yet, here we are. I'm so glad to know other people see the issues and are willing to call them out and not just sit in the bliss of ignorance. Thank you for articulating what I keep trying to say.
As someone who has zero nostalgia for any of the past Spider-Man films, No Way Home was everything I had been dreading about a nostalgia-bait movie and all of the retreading tired story beats I'd been hoping the new Spider-Man movies would avoid as much as they could. I'd never seen any of the original trilogy and only saw the Lizard movie from Garfield's run (a friend of mine tried to force me to watch Amazing 2 because it was "so good" but I fell asleep on their couch like a third of the way through it). I wouldn't go so far as to say it was "awful, boring", like you said it would have been if the first five movies hadn't happened, but... it was basically just a much-worse version of Spider-Verse and everyone either has nostalgia blinders on or they're stuck in the Animation Age Ghetto live-action-superiority brainrot of "cartoons are bad!". Also Aunt May getting fridged was bullshit, and him not telling his friends after their memories got wiped was bullshit, come the fuck on. God. Just completely making the first two movies pointless.
I had nostalgia for the Spiderman movies and even I thought it was nostalgia bait and not a very good one in a narrative sense. Like I can't help but think what a dumbass Holland's Peter was and how horribly contrived everything is. Just campy fun and nothing substantially interesting. Kind of like most Marvel movies, they're just junk food for me but I do love me some junk food.
What was he supposed to do with his friends? If somebody you didn't know came up to you in your place of work and told you that the entire world had them wiped from memory, but that the two of you were in love and should get back together, how would you respond? I would think they were crazy. If he came up with a bunch of facts to prove he knew me, I'd think he was a stalker.
Hi I'm sorry this is unrelated but I've only recently discovered your channel and this is my third video and seeing Krtek in the first few frames brought joy to my heart.
loved this! i also adore the PS4 game and how MJ was developed as a character - the part where she jumps always stuck with me but this really articulated why it was so cool. it's her CHOICE, it's a batshit choice, it demonstrates her trust in Peter and also her bravery / nerve.
i'm not even a fan of spiderman but your videos are always a delight to watch! this one was no exception. if i wasn't subscribed already, i would definitely hit that subscribe button after your spiderweb show off hahaha
I love the natural salt and pepper hair! Mine is coming in like that and now I have an idea how I look/will look. You would be surprised, I can't find natural hair color before someone's a full silver fox, and here is this TH-camr I watch, being a role model, expanding horizons, pushing boundaries, creating riveting and immersive analysis, and showing me what natural greying hair actually looks like in a warm color on top of it. I eagerly await what else I may learn here, thank you for this channel and such gorgeous content! Also you never hurt my ears so whoever does audio is amazing!!
I'm just seeing this now, and it's a fantastic, really insightful look at the franchise and its role as a mirror of the superhero genre as a whole. I'm not immune to rolling my eyes when people try too hard to look for social commentary in film or TV, but this was a genuinely intriguing and well-reasoned critique. Bravo.
Loved this. Not totally related but since you were talking about Peter learning responsibility etc., I think a really big mistake in no way home was that the whole spell-fuck-situation was really dr. strange's fault, since he didn't explain the full effects of the spell at all until it was in motion. He was all "Oh this is dangerous and tricky blabla" but didnt care to share the necessary information for Peter to give informed consent like you would, say, before any medical procedure.
My neck got so uncomfortable watching you read out those special thanks. The cat cameos were delightful, though. Wonderful video! New to your content and loving it!
Thanks for critiquing all of these films equally I know everyone’s got their favourites and least favourites but I feel like this was a very fair look at them
Spider-Gwen is a character I have mixed feelings on. On one hand she's a cool character by herself, on the other, she has nothing to do with 616 Gwen Stacey other than her name and being blond. She's not a divergent character, she's and alternate one. And that feels weird in the comics, where she exists in a space that was irreparably changed by her namesakes death. Heck, Spider-Gwen probably wouldn't exist if Gwen hadn't died and become an icon after. Yet Spider-Gwen lends no commentary on her meta-origins. At best she lets Marvel shrug it's shoulders and say "Oh, Gwen's death wasn't the result of any particular attitude towards women and female love interests, 616 Gwen Stacey just got unlucky. See, in this one (where her attitude is more appealing to modern readers) she's a spider-person". I don't know. Just feels unfair that Jason Hood gets to become the Red Hood whilst Gwen's body gets dug up and rebureied for the millionth time.
I see what you mean, some Spider Gwen comics that I like have given Gwen this existential dread because she learns about herself dying in multiple different universes to the point where it seems like a pattern and she feels this weight like she’s destined to die young and she has deal with that and learn to move past it. It’s at least a bit more interesting and let’s classic Gwen’s roots affect her modernized alternate version self.
@@mca7905 I should dig round for those stories, that would be the kind of thing I'd like to see. I think it doesn't help that there seem to be a lot of one off alternate Gwen's that draw from Spider-Gwen more then 616. It's complicated because it does make sense in the context of the multiverse, it's just the baggage of those foundational stories that make it feel strange.
I actually really liked MJ in No Way Home. I'm glad they didn't give her powers. Not to say that Spider Gwen isn't totally the best, but not every woman needs to be empowered by literal power. I really liked how MJ was always pulling the team together, how she got to have her own character arc and how whenever Peter allowed his friends to help, things actually were seen to be significantly better. I was a bit mixed about the ending. Like, on one had it was kinda cool to see Spiderman as being a really flawed human. But I guess that only works if you interpret the ending how I do. Which is: Peter was traumatized by the events of the film and actually ended the movie in a significantly worse place than where he started it. His friends probably could have helped him heal, but he was given the perfect method of pushing them away, in violation of their trust and wishes, and he does it. Even Dr. Strange was shown to be kind of an impulsive idiot in the movie. No engineer worth their salt would start mucking around in a live system without at least getting proper requirements first. Idk, I thought the movie kinda showed how superheroes need to have strong connections to normal humans, or they kinda... start losing touch with how much power they actually wield and what the stakes actually are
I’m really enjoying working through your entire back catalogue. So grateful the algorithm directed me to you! Also, your cat being so concerned for you in the fridge was hilarious!
Random and not necessarily related but Gravity Rush is the best Spider Gwen video game. Kat in that game is like spidergirl/supergirl/a ninja turtle (her home is in the sewers). Plus in her 2nd game her rival basically becomes her girlfriend like Jeanne in Bayonetta 2
As a life-long spiderman nerd, NWH was amazing and left me reinvigorated for spiderman content (which lead to a weeklong binge), but i was genuinely shocked when Pete went and made a decision without consulting his team in the exact way he did an entire movie ago. like. GUYS THIS IS THE STORY BEAT WHERE YOU DO THE OPPOSITE THING TO SHOW GROWTH! I loved the inclusion of a bunch of spidermans but i do think it was an oversight not to include SpiderGwen or some of the other diverse spidermen from other universes as a soft introduction. You can argue that SpiderGwen wouldn't be eligible to know "Peter PArker is spiderman" but it would be easy to write around that
I still don't understand how saving the villains in no way home would change their universes, isn't it like changing the past by time travelling? They already explained how that doesn't change the future it just creates an alternative reality.
(Sorry for the late reply but I only just found this video and felt like I could add something) I think what the movie is going for is that despite us having meta knowledge that these guys are villains and are capable of great harm that doesnt make them a lost cause because the time they spend in MCU is still real to them and those around them (incredibly tacky when you say it like that). In real life for instance, if you knew, without a shadow of a doubt someone would grow up to do some bad shit, would you still try and show them compassion in an attempt to mitigate that suffering? Of course in reality we have no way of knowing that but I guess thats why its important to make a stand and shoot for compassion regardless.
Great video, very insightful and well researched, as always! Also, thanks for the chuckle of imagining you unplugging and emptying your entire fridge just for the “fridged woman” gag... Commit To The Bit, indeed. 😆
Omg thank you so much for making this video. My bf and I were so angry after watching NWH for all the reasons you listed off And as a gay man who identifies in a particular way with superheroes, their secret identities, and when they reveal those identities to the ones they love and they accept them 100%, Spider-Man, for all intents and purposes, going “back in the closet” at the end of the movie broke my heart So yeah, I agree. Spider-Man movies need to be waaaay more feminist and queer-friendly. And relative to all the other MCU movies they’re waaaay behind, especially after this last movie
same! as a gay trans guy, i feel like superheroes, but especially peter parker echos the queer experience, in terms of coming out, like he's hiding it for months, years, however long, and its defiinietly taking a toll on personal life, and he 'comes out' and its alright for a while until mysterio (think about it, all the other villains knew who their spidermen were peter, but are allies and didn't out him. mysterios kind of a homophobe) essentially outs him as spiderman, making everything so much more complicated, as being out always is. Everyone has so many questions (the reporters) and he feels like he's being critized all the time (which he is). I could go on and on tbh. I also agree 100%, im so dissapointed that this movie fell back on the sexist 'death of gwen stacy' trope. And i think andrew is right, why can't it be *ben* stacy or a guy mj?
Always a pleasure watching your vids. And gotta love email leaks... And I love that moment with your nephew. I was at a youth camp last summer and I was sketching Spider-Gwen and this thirteen-year-old boy loved it. It's amazing.
Very good analysis! One thing I like about Sam Raimi's Mary Jane, however, is that for all the sexism and damseling- in-distress in those movies, she's actually one of the few love interests in the film franchise that gets to have her own life outside of Peter. Her life doesn't revolver around him, she's not there to help him (and I don't think she needs to); she's has her own dreams and aspirations that she pursues despite him and I remember how that used to piss people off.
I’m really glad you pointed this out! Now that I think of it, even though I like MCU MJ fine, I don’t really know anything about her. But with MJ in the Raimi movies, I could tell you what her life was like growing up and all of her aspirations in life.
@Erik Kemeey I guess we get some, but I was mostly talking about her in the first 2 movies. Even then, I don’t think we got a lot in NWH.
I used to really not appreciate how well Raimi’s MJ felt like a real complex person. It took the best parts of MJ’s comic backstory but took out the egotism from the early MJ years. Some of her actions are contentious and not admirable but they make perfect sense for her after what she grew up with and I like that it was explored that she desires stability and a relationship that isn’t anything like her parents’ ugly divorce and she wants to prove she’s worthy of being loved. Her being confused and upset that Peter is kind and says beautiful heartfelt things to her yet constantly distances himself from her and hurts her for his mixed signals. I really like her and I think Kirsten did a fantastic job in the role.
THIS. For all Gwen is praised in the Amazing spiderman movies, she basically stays for and with Peter instead of going to London which always felt wrong to me. It is typical Hollywood romance and not very realistic either. MJ doing her thing each movie at least gives her life beyond the romance like you said.
@@MademoiselleRed1390 Gwen in TASM definitely did her own thing and surpasses him academically and career-wise. It's not as in-your-face as MJ's struggle to get roles and eventually being able to perform, but Gwen did have a life outside of Peter. She willingly ditches her taxi because there was a traffic jam that wasn't moving forward anytime soon so might as well go with Peter for a while, right? Mind you, she wasn't going to ditch London, Peter was the one who was willing to go to London for her. She made an impulse decision to help Peter fight Goblin and Electro - presumably she was thinking that everything will be alright and she can still catch a plane to London later on. So in my mind if Gwen hadn't died that night, she would still go to London and Peter would be the one catching up to her.
tl;dr what you're saying about Gwen in TASM is BS
One thing I liked about how they handled aunt may's death in the new movie is that it ultimately wasn't her death that had an impact on Peter, but her life. Her dying didn't cause him to be better, rather it was her life and legacy that did that, and he had to choose to be better DESPITE her death.
I agree, but I also feel like they could have done that without her dying? It feels like a death is the easy way out in storytelling sometimes :P
@@veelogation3890 Oh I 100% agree, I really wish she hadn't died, I'm just appreciating the breadcrumbs that at least her death had some dignity in that way if that makes sense.
err. it was her pushy morality and saviour complex that got herself killed and got peter, the child that she is responsible for and the guardian of, severely injured.
idk. prev mentor figures like uncle ben would say things like "great power comes great responsibility" without ever telling peter what he should or shouldnt do. they isntead give him the values that they believe in and lets him make a choice. she just pushes peter to do what she thinks is the right thing (rehabilitate the anomalies)
i think her characterization was really preachy and frustrating, given shes supposed to be a parental figure that looks after peter instead of putting him (and all of new york) into danger by helping him smuggle several super powered individuals into a single apartment.
this is all to say that idk what her life's impact was on peter other than uhhh getting him hurt, getting herself killed, and uttering like 1-3 lines reflective of her moral views in all of 3 spiderman movies.
i hate tony stark, but his character seemed to play more of an active role in peter's life as far as his decisions as spiderman than may had. thats just sad
@@julienne152 Yeah 100%.
@@zorro...... it wasnt HER decision to fix the villains. Did you even watch the movie lol
A lot of people think Maguire Peter did get a decent moment in NWH. Peter got to save Green Goblin from getting impaled by his glider instead of jumping out of the way. It echoes how Harry jumped in front of his glider to save him in Spiderman 3 and gives him the chance to right a wrong he always regretted (and prevents Holland's Peter from making the same mistake). It's not quite as emotional as Garfield's MJ moment, but still shows some nice character growth.
Peter 2/Tobey stopping Peter 1/Tom from killing Goblin is also a callback to Spider-Man 3, where Aunt May tells Peter to not succumb to mindless revenge, because "revenge is like a poison".
Its cool that he may think of it as a debt he could never have repaid, Harry's sacrifice.
HEY! SPOILERS!
jk
/s
Agreed, It was a great moment. I think Tom Hollond being too angry to stop himself also made sense. He lost Aunt May so angry it but was also that he failed all the villains and now they are putting themselves and everyone in the city in danger. So he is pissed at himself, pissed at the green goblin in side Norman, and just wants just needs them gone.
Lol Andrew Garfield was just like 'hey what if I got to kiss this hot guy on set? Just for the film of course, not because I want to kiss him or anything.'
What a legend.
Fired for thinking "but what if gay?"
✨Michael B. Jordan✨
we could've had it all.....
@@hinasakukimi but thus... it was not meant to be
@@Gloomdrake stan lee made a pretty ignorant statement about what andrew said
One of the fascinating things about early MJ, is that she's written to be 'the wrong choice' to Gwen's Love Interest status. She's written as fun but also flighty and flawed...which is what made her so popular to begin with.
Turns out having a fleshed out personality is more engaging to readers than being on a pedestal, even for female characters. Heck, there's at least one silver-age story where MJ is already helping Spider-man win the day, something I can't remember Gwen or Betty being allowed to do.
One of the frustrations I have Spidey adaptations is that a lot of them have this need to make MJ more...respectable? Be it making her the 'girl next door' or the 'smart girl', it feels like there's an aversion to keeping her the funloving, loud, partygirl performer with depth, as if it makes her too irresponsibe and distasteful. I don't think changing her away from those traits is inherently bad, but when we almost never see 'the wrong un' MJ, it it starts feeling like a pattern. Even the PS4 game, while it had a better reason than most to involve her in the game, still needed to change her into a stock girlfriend journalist.
I totally see what you're saying and we're seeing this trope a lot in other media too. It's the same "she wears short skirts, I wear t shirts" early 2000s coming-of-age stuff we've seen forever now. It relies on comparing women against one another and reinforcing the idea that a woman with sexual agency (often dressed up as promiscuity or flightiness) and who's primary strength isn't intelligence is a lesser romantic option. As a result I know nothing about MCU MJ except that she's intelligent, a feminist, and cares about Peter. You could make assumptions about her personality through her attitude and deadpan interactions with others, but it's not like she ever expressly states an interest like when Ned grieves the death of his Lego Death Star.
@@danieneit6830 I'm not a huge fan of MCU Spidey, but I do appreciate that they translated her abrasiveness in some form, as well as giving her an interest in Lit (though I feel like that got lost later).
It's the repeated avoidance of MJ's loud, funloving, performer characterisation, as well as Marvel's post-One More Day downplaying of her in favour of 'smart' gf's and superheroine gf's, that make me wary that there's still an idea that MJ isn't enough of what a 'proper' woman for Peter Parker.
@@danieneit6830 don’t forget she has an interest in art and debating in addition to literature
Yeah, that was the biggest thing I noticed about the ps4 MJ. While I enjoy how they handled her relationship with Peter a *lot* more than I usually do, it was frustrating that they couldn't seem to figure out how to make her an independent and compelling character without changing her personality completely....
@@danieneit6830 I think she was given plenty of depth, in FFH especially, she likes conspiracy theories and true crime! She’s also a great detective (;
I think you are one of the few people I've seen to thoughtfully critique what's wrong with these properties, while simultaneously acknowledging how much they mean to us, what we, the lowly peasants, like about them, and how they enrich our lives, thus making it even more pressing to solve these issues than if we wrote them off as trash, as it tends to be the case when doing critical readings of mass media.
"the lowly peasants". ouch. i mean its true but still, im hurt.
I think Far From Home completely failed May as a character. She just found out Peter was Spider-Man and they glossed over it when they could’ve told an emotional and heartwarming story developing the relationships between Peter and his mother figure.
I also think when looking at the whole of Spider-Man’s supporting cast, the largest presences are May, MJ, and Gwen.
Peter in the comics is really defined by this absence of a father figure and the large presence of these women in his life, especially his surrogate mother figure. The MCU replaces that with a parade of replacement father figures and moves Peter’s relationships with these women further and further out of focus. It just bugs me that Tony, Happy, and even Mysterio have been given more weight in Peter’s life than May. Maybe her death immortalizes her and honors her like Uncle Ben or maybe it just casts aside a wasted character with a lot of disregarded potential. Either way May is THE biggest missed opportunity of the Spider-Man movies.
Oh, I do kind of agree with that assessment. MCU May's death doesn't carry the weight that it should be because a lot of the development that happen in her life HAPPENS off-screen. The fact that we never got to see May reacting to Peter's secret was such a waste.
in my opinion i hate mcu spiderman, i rather want the people who made spiderman ps4 to make a mcu movie, even spiderverse is better than the mcu
Right. I feel like the writers of MCU killed off Iron Man but couldn't let him go so now they just continue his story through spiderman and its not interesting and as you said, a disservice to the other spiderman characters.
I really do agree.
At first I didn't think much about it because I didn't see May's death coming, but now that she was like that in NWH made me wish that they showed more about Peter and May together.
And that's one problem I have with No Way Home and the whole MCU trilogy. Both May and MJ aren't given the depth or development with Peter that they should've had. The movies rely too much on what the audience already knows about Spider-man. We know May and MJ/Gwen are the most important women in Peter's life, but we don't get to see why.
For a girl like me, who only watched the Sam Raimi movies (and mainly loved them for the soundtrack) and never read the original Spidey comics, I didn't know how much this focus on the female characters would impact me. Your way of pointing out systemic issues, while still showing your love for the thing, you are talking about, I think, captures one of your main strengths overall. To not let something be black or white, always letting something be both at the same time. I just love your work! Thank you so much!
Well spoken, that's really a strong suit of these video essays!
SO TRUEEEEE
Is there a term that encompasses the feeling of ‘I don’t like that this happened and wished it hadn’t, but if it had to happen, I respect it being done this way’? Because that’s what I feel for May’s death in NWH.
She could have walked away and been like ‘nope, not my problem to deal with’ but instead insisted they had to help these complete strangers. She didn’t just leave it up to Peter, but helped in whatever way she could. She was the one who knew what Peter’s tingle moment was leading to (save Peter) and made the decision to grab all the cures. She faced down the Green Goblin to protect her nephew, even when she knew she stood no chance. She could have run, but instead she grabbed a pipe and did her best ‘stand alone against the odds’ Captain America impression.
May was a really good character and her death only solidified that, but damn do I wish it hadn’t happened.
(And yes, I know throwing MJ off the roof just so Garfield could save her was only for his storyline, but damn was it nice to have him actually close the story arc)
I have way too many complicated feels for a movie that is basically a pop corn blockbuster lol.
Yeah I think that is the one point on which I disagree with Verily. Aunt May's death did make sense for the them of responsibility. At the start of this movie, Peter was done. He was stressed and harassed from all sides and when it came time to try and save the villains, he wasn't there for it. He saw that they could be helped and needed it, but he was an upset, overwhelmed teen and he said no. He was angry and didn't feel like taking on that responsibility. Aunt May argued against that, and you can kind of see that later when Doctor Strange is going to send them back he begins to hesitate, and ultimately prevents them from being sent back. And then, when she dies for her attempt to help the villains and to save Peter's life, her last words are to tell him that they did the right thing. That despite what it cost them, despite failing, that trying this was a good thing, and that Peter shouldn't let his grief prevent him from trying again. And that is a brilliant bit of characterization and theming for a character who has honestly had very little impact on the themes of the movies. It is more than the Uncle Ben moment. It's not just a lesson for Peter but a statement from May, about who she is and what she believes, a last lesson from a person who has dedicated her life to helping people.
And so after all that gushing it's gonna sound a bit weird when I say I didn't really feel anything for May's death. Despite it's tremendous thematic weight, it felt a bit awkward. While I praise that little bit of dialogue for it's elegance, it does feel a bit rushed, given that the setup for May to say that comes from a single short scene. It wasn't perfectly handled and I personally didn't feel much, but I respect the hell out of them for the attempt. I still absolutely love that scene though I doubt in the way the director intended. I really wish we could have seen more Aunt May.
@@MouseOnAJourney You worded that so well! (And I agree, Nicole - in the scope of this jam-packed movie if that had to happen they did it well.) I feel like my main issue with character deaths (especially for female characters in comics/games) is that you're losing this character. You're cutting off anything interesting that could happen with them as a character from now on, and so often that will feel like a waste and not worth it. Don't get me wrong, there are times when a heroic sacrifice can be meaningful. But this didn't feel like it. It felt like a very awkward way to... I don't know, make Tom more relatable to the older spideys? Didn't seem worth it.
i disagree though. it felt so out of character for her given how, in previous movies featuring spiderman, may had never come in to lecture or preach to him about responsibility or how to carry out his duties as a hero. she worries about him, sure, but she had never pushed her input so strongly onto peter.
now she comes in and tells him they need help (before even knowing that these characters would likely die if sent back to their world - which is untrue in the case of lizard and sandman) just because norman osborn was emotionally unstable. she had a saviour complex and pushed it onto her teen nephew, asking him to keep norman around to help him, as if peter was a licensed therapist or something. what the hell was peter going to do with norman osborn???? again, this is before their knowledge that the villains were going to die.
worse yet, may had no way of knowing at this point if these characters would actually be better off back in their own world, somewhere familiar and recognizable to them. she just assume that peter can save them, and pushes responsibility onto him. again, hes like 17. shes putting the wellbeing of 5 adult strangers that she doesnt know onto the shoulders of her 17 year old nephew who, again, cant really help with the mental/emotional issues of norman osborn like she demanded him to, much less that of like 4 other superpowered individuals at least twice or thrice peter's age. i can understand if she said this after knowing they'd all die, but she was already pushy on it prior. and that's what makes me so irked that not only would she be someone with a saviour complex, she'd be someone with a saviour complex that she projected onto a literal teen.
if may had any semblance of character that focused on responsibility, it would've come up earlier in the movies. it hadnt! if may had been a more active maternal figure and mentor to peter than fuckin tony stark, her advice and words would have been meaningful to him at earlier points of the story. they weren't! they put all this involvement here, in the last movie, just to tie back to tobey's spiderman with the great power/great responsibility line, and then kill her.
(small note to say that if may had played bigger roles and said or done things to influence peter's morality and decisions before that i simply overlooked: mg apologies and im open to having less of a hard stance, i totally accept that my memory of homecoming is splotchy at this point.)
Garfield saving MJ wasn’t just for his character arc but also he was preventing Holland from going though what he did. From becoming bitter and “holding back his punches”
Holland had already lost May. Losing MJ would have been too much for him.
Bro I haven't heard how Andrew wanted Spiderman to have a boyfriend until now and I'm living for it
This 😃
Yes! I remember when he was talking about the possibility of Peter being bisexual way back when, and even about him being played by a non-white actor, or being a woman-things the comics were already doing (except making him bi-bridge too far), but hadn’t been brought to a live action film. Given the roles Andrew Garfield has played in other movies and plays, this makes sense for him but might very well be why they didn’t continue with him as an actor.
The best part is that now people are demanding another movie with Andrew as Spider-Man, and he has the leverage to say that he’ll only return if he can explore his bisexuality! Sony would be throwing money away if they didn’t go through with TASM 3, so we might actually get this!
@@littlelordfuckleroy3822 omg I hope!!!!!
Spider-Man doesn't need to be bisexual, in most media it's ok to have a gay superhero but to change a character's sexual orientation just for shits and gigs is not ok. If you want a LGBT Spider-Man, consult marvel and write your own comic with your own character, or there's plenty of rule 34s (if that's what gets you hot). Peter Parker is a *straight* Male, he will never be Gay or Bisexual, get it out of your heads. Spider-Man will outlast you long before you're dead he's bigger than you, it's just going to make you look like an asshole. Stop with this, you're the problem, you're the cancer in the fan base.
I think it's worth noting the MCU reboot is more based on Miles Morales from the 2010s. He's younger and goes to an advanced school alongside his best friend who's chubby and is his guy in the chair. He's a young boy thrust into a world where superheroes already exist and regularly interacts with the Avengers who see him as a child. Ned is literally copied from Ganke.
A lot of Peter's life was about money issues and taking care of his elderly aunt, which they completely threw away by making her younger.
Literally everything you said is wrong
@@ReaperBlaze76 If a quote from a bad movie is the BEST comeback you have then you're too hilarious.
And if you think MCU's Ned Leeds isn't just ripping off Ganke, then you're just stupid.
@@ReaperBlaze76 uh… it’s not though?
i love the new spiderman movies, i love the comics, and i love miles. the op is still right lol
but the MCU spiderman started way before into the spiderverse
@@j1430 they meant the comics not the Spiderverse movie
There's a real subset of toxic male fans who hate Raimi's MJ, because all she does is scream and bounce around from boyfriend to boyfriend.
Like they completely miss how her upbringing has left her longing for male approval, and how the only guy who really sees her for who she is keeps randomly pushing her away.
They just want her to shut up and be Pete's property I guess.
Ummm no
I hate raimi's mj because she is a bad adaptation of the character.
exactly!!! the other day i was about to watch the spiderman 2 with my sister and i told her that "Mj is really annoying" and then we watch the movie and I realize that she wasn't, she wasn't perfect but most of her traits were understandable considering the toxicity in her family. it's just that i had that mindset because that's what i felt when i watched the movie when i was younger, i was so impressed and my sister thought i was crazy to think mj was just a hollow character, she found her so complex! it's really interesting to see the new generations react to movies from the past
I couldn't disagree more
I am not male (not that, that matters) but my problem with Raimi's MJ is yes, all she does is go from boyfriend to boyfriend and scream. The former however, I would argue is because Peter wants to be her boyfriend, so we have to know if that space is vacant or not (I personally didn't read it as character choice but it being from the point of view of the male protagonist) for example, it made her character seem well questionable at times - stating she fancies Spidy while Aunt May is in hospital and later kissing Parker while in the funeral for her current boyfriend's father. Scream is obvious, making her nothing but a damsel in distress (once or twice fair enough but throughout the whole trilogy? Seem a bit much) which again is only used to motivate Peter.
The whole looking for male approval - I did not read that at all. We see once, maybe twice her father being abusive but (I personally..) didn't see it how it ever effected her or it ever being brought back - one obvious place would have been in the 1st movie when Norman is heard having a go at her.. outside of her wanting to be a movie star, she to me reads pretty 2D and something that is desired by the male protagonist.
Also, a genuine question; why does Peter "love" MJ? Outside of once being told he thought she was an angel which, to me it says lust/ a crush at most (IMO we should have gotten a reason in 3rd movie but we meet them when they are close to breaking up).
I want to lastly add; I grew up with these movies and still have emotional attachments to them but (for me) MJ just wasn't written well.
Raimi's MJ was one of the worst character ever .....
I wish you had also mentioned how the PS4 video game handles Aunt May’s death WAY better too - she wasn’t just randomly killed by the villain, rather she made an active choice to help the homeless citizens of NYC, as she had done throughout her career, during the game version of a deadly pandemic. And how even as she lay dying from the virus with Peter willing to give her the sole antidote she instead accepted her death & encouraged Peter to let her go and use the one antidote for the greater good to make vaccines for the city. Teaching Peter the lesson of great power & responsibility while still giving her agency up to the end was just *chef’s kiss*
Oh my god the fact that part of the reason Andrew could have been fired was because he kept annoying Sony about wanting spidey/Peter to get a boyfriend is so hilarious and amazing (but also like sad and depressing bc homophobia)
It just like the image of every meeting with Sony Andrew just being like “...yeah cool cool cool.... but how about we give spidey a boyfriend???” And them just sighing hcjckghdjvjv
I heard a rumor that he got so f🤬in drunk that the Next day he was too hungover to atend a meeting with Amy Pascal & The studio big wigs (this all taking place in BRAZIL!) & to her that was the last straw, so they terminated him to rather "start fresh"
I kind of appreciate Tobey Maguire's reluctance to reveal any details about his Peter's continued adventures, especially considering that he managed to keep his characterization so strong in spite of that reluctance; it allows the fans to fill in the gaps.
Plus, he does allude that things did work out with Mary Jane. That's all that matters in the end.
I had to scream with laughter at "some medieval slum called Europe"
Dutch people have still not shut up about the unintenionally hilarious portrayal of the Netherlands in Far From Home
I do think May had a little more agency this time though, she helped Peter cure Doc Ock, and she tried to help him cure the goblin, although the cure was ineffective, she still tried. She even had a similar death to Ben, in that she died trying to stop someone Peter didn't. Even when Peter told her to run and save herself, she decided to stay, and I think her death was much more heroic than it's given credit for
"It's about changing how the STORY sees her" literally thank you
I agree thoroughly with the fact that NWH was basically Peter failing to internalize all the themes around him. But I also want to give it credit that this was at least to some degree on purpose. As positive as the victory was, it still felt like the true origin story of this Spiderman, and he'll have to make up for his mistakes through the next saga.
So the one-sided decision at the end felt more like him having no other choice and assuming responsibility for his past mistakes than the moment where he should share the burden with others.
This might be giving them too much credit, but I don't think we're supposed to agree with Peter's narrative in NWH, and that overtime he'll come to put into words after having to learn the hard way the cost of his actions.
I hope this is where it's going, but we'll have to wait and see.
"Yay, female power, clitoral nerve endings!"
I want to start using that line from now.
I think aunt May’s death still serves a greater purpose than MJ in the first movie because she died as a result of asking Peter to save the villains. If they had sent them back they would have died early and may asked Peter not to but they were double crossed. Mays dying words have significance because she still thinks Peter should try and save EVERYONE even her murderers. I think it’s safe to compare her sacrifice to uncle Ben though I will note Ben’s sacrifice was much more visual, which is important in this medium. May’s sacrifice of safety has to be contemplated first, while the men who die as a sacrifice do so directly
Ned made Peter promise to find them, and MJ insisted too, and they had the whole "wait to tell me you love me when you find me again" thing. Peter feeling like he shouldn't tell them because of danger at the end makes sense because that's what many people do when they are stressed and traumatized etc, they internalize their burdens and don't reach out. I think its good and emotional and hopefully we get to see him learn how to incorporate his loved ones back into his life and find balance
Comic wise, Mary Jane seemed progressive for her time. Yes, she was the “not like other girls” trope, but many loved how she was able to speak her mind, make her own decisions, and paves her own way. She doesn’t do what the man wants her to do.
To be honest, it has been a long time since I read them, so I may have forgot some things, but that is the impression I got.
Film wise, we need to give the Raimi version some flack. There are many types of women and some women have that damsel in distress quality. Some are gentle, kind, maybe meek people. That is not a bad thing. While I do not like how they steered away from the original MJ, i respected her working hard and following her dreams. She found a way to get out of her toxic home life. These are traits to admire. She is a loyal friend despite the dramatic love triangle she has between Peter and Harry.
For people who say she is weak, remember she was ganged up on. She did not have super strength. She was backed up in a corner and could not escape so it made sense that she needed saving. I think internally, she has built a tough skin considering what her life involves.
I get criticizing how the writers may have not given her enough nuance and depth as other versions of her character. I get criticizing her for not being like her comic counterpart, but I think it is sexist when we don’t consider Raimi’s MJ as feminist because she has qualities even women make fun of. There are many type of women and many types of feminism.
I think calling comic MJ an NLOG isn’t fair. NLOGs typically focus on their own lack of femininity (wearing makeup, putting work into appearance, etc.) MJ was a model and movie star.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 i depicted her that way because of her personality was treated as different from other girls and stood out to the men. For the time that it was written, she also didn’t take crap from anybody.
I feel the “not like other girls” trope also involves personality not just the person’s looks.
I mean, as someone who is gentle, kind and generally 'softer' personality wise, I really disliked MJ in the Sam Raimi films, especially the first one (haven't watched the 2nd and 3rd in a while, maybe it gets better). The problem is more that she lacked depth especially in that first movie. She was just the very tropey 'pretty girl with douchey boyfriend who never noticed the MC who needed saving'. She was 2 dimensional and flat. It never felt like her personality was naturally how she was as a person, it felt like a trope designed to make Peter look heroic. Every man in her life treats her poorly, so Peter looks even more The Hero for treating her well. And sometimes the mistreatment she experienced just rubbed me entirely the wrong way, because again, as someone who _does_ have abusive parents, it felt like it was constructed to make her a damsel to save, and not an actual 3 dimensional character whose feelings and agency are centred within these events happening in _her_ life. It only mattered how these events related to Peter. It honestly felt very exploitative to me at times. Like who cares how MJ feels about the trauma she just experienced - Peter saved her! Peter believes in her! Look at how heroic he is!
Yes she is not weak for needing to be saved, but why does the story feel the need to compulsively put her in these situations only to make Peter look heroic? What does it do for _her_ character, that doesn't wind up being something mostly relevant to Peter's story or her relationship with him? Nothing. That's the issue.
Even softer quiter women's have feelings about their own mistreatment, and those feelings matter more than how it affects and motivates the men around them. I have a personality like you described so I'm always looking for women in film to represent that, but far too often people just don't write female characters well, and MJ is no different. The issue is not that she is soft and kind. The issue is that those aspects of her character feel like they were contrived specifically to flesh out Peter as a character. And it's fine if that's a side effect of her character, but she has to feel like an actual _person_ on her own. Too often in the first film, she just doesn't.
@@Lisa_Flowers can’t argue with that. Good point.
I just did not want her good qualities to go unnoticed, but I do agree she could have been written better.
@@gabrielleduplessis7388 I appreciate that. I agree that too often personalities like mine go kinda unappreciated in feminism, so I'm glad someone cares. Mysogynistic men pedestalize and benefit off of personalities like that, and try to beat other women into being that way. So feminism can try to compensate for that by validating women who are louder, or more abrasive, or outspoken, and not validating softer women because why bother? They're already validated by society, right? Yes, but no. Women who happen to fit more into patriarchy's mould aren't necessarily appreciated by partriarchal society - they're just easier to control. They fall between the cracks and get kinda forgotten by all sides when they're not being exploited. I want to like MJ because on some level she's relatable, but in the first movie at least it's not people appreciating women like her, it's people exploiting them. Appreciating women who are kind and soft also means respecting their agency and complexity in the specific way they express it, even if it's with a quiet voice. From what i've read MJ becomes this in later films, so that seems like a good thing.
Into the Spider-Verse is definitely my favourite Marvel movie overall. For live action, it's probably No Way Home, so how dare you say things about it that are completely true and have prompted me into a second, more critical watch.
@@bro-be3bd I love that each character in the film had a personality and that the story and themes made sense
@@RandomSkyeRoses idk i cant figuar out if you are being genuine or sarcastic
I really enjoyed NWH but the more I thought about it afterwards the more mad I got. The only single character that is improved for being in the crossover is Garfield-Spidey (Dafoe does a good job too tbf). Everybody else is flattened to make room for all the characterr and plot stuff they wanted to do for hype.
This movie would have been a lot better if instead of Macquire and Garfield we got Daredevil and one other Netflix hero (Maybe Jessica). They just wanted a cut of that Spider-verse pie, so they made a diet version of their own.
My favorite version of MJ was in the Spectacular Spider Man cartoon. I love how feisty and self-confident comic-book MJ is and they got that perfect.
Nwh spoilers //
YESSS this is everything I’d been thinking!!! They really did MJ a disservice removing her agency to move the plot at all, and I couldn’t for the life of me figure out how aunt May’s death was like uncle ben’s at all!!
Part of me hopes that it was intentional and done to set up that even in this seemingly better-for-everyone-else ending is still Peter messing up, removing MJ's agency in the situation will not keep her safe. Maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit but at the same time I cant see them drawing so much attention to how MJ wants to make decisions as a couple and not just Peter calling the shots and then have THAT ending and not be doing something with it
@@fangsabre i really do hope it's that and it would be awesome if they went that route and im hoping they do!! i'm a bit more pessimistic bc it's not unheard of for the mcu to contradict itself thematically and for them to treat its characters poorly
@@fangsabre honestly that’s the read I got from the last few scenes, with the whole “I’ll figure it out” thing, zi think that they’re end game.
IMO, what made May’s death work and got me to overlook the slightly sloppy writing they gave her was the acting from Marissa Tomei and especially Tom Holland.
MJ'S crush on peter was sprinkled around throughout the trilogy, but in FFH it happened so suddenly, one minute she's flipping Peter off like a 3 year old then the next she's frenching him on a bridge.
Let’s be real- the true reason Garfield was was pushing for a bi Peter wasn’t representation….. he just wanted to have a make out scene with Michael b Jordan 😳
Love this and agree wholeheartedly! However… no mention of the inverse situation in Spider-Gwen’s introduction when they “fridge” Peter?
I guess it feels different because it’s crossed with a tragic victim becoming the villain arch when he becomes the Lizard.
Also the Spider-Women crossover is such a fun “Girls Brunch Interrupted” story! I didn’t know they were considering adapting it!
As a young millennial/elder zoomer I have a much closer connection to Jess, Silk, Gwen and Miles as characters than I do to Peter. Not that I don’t love him, but it’s more like how you love movies made before you were born compared to the ones from your childhood.
@@pelmer3948 Spider-verse is basically the perfect Spider-Man movie.
With Lizard-Peter's death, I really don't know if it is a bad thing, despite being a fridge. I know that sounds terrible so I'll do my best to explain. Like, I think that practically, Lizard-Peters death is no different from the dead parent trope. This is a trope I am personally tired of. It reduces a character's life to their death having an impact on someone else, just like Lizard-Peter. But at the same time, people do die and that does affect the people they knew. And Lizard-Peters death isn't like, skipped like other fridgings. You think of Gwen Stacy's death in Amazing Spider-Man 2 and really all that did was make Peter sad for a little while and then pick himself back up. It was extremely brief, like a few scenes. And the same can almost be said about Gwen, except Peter's death drives her whole arc and a lot of her characterization in the film. Her arc is about opening up again, and she is noticeably getting more comfortable interacting with Miles throughout the film coming to care for him and returning to her dimension feeling less alone. A lot of this comes through in the voice acting so idk how planned it all was but that is what I took away.
For me all that makes Lizard-Peters death a positive. I'm sure they could have written it in a way so that his death wasn't given meaning by one person who was sad about it, but at the same time that is kinda true to life. Maybe it would of been better if they told the story a bit more, to give his death and life a bit more meaning while retaining the fact that sometimes you can only know a person vicariously. Idk, does anyone have any thoughts on all this? I'd be happy to hear your opinions.
@@MouseOnAJourney I think with the "refrigerator" trope the problem is not just that the character is killed to further the story of the protagonist, but also how it removes the agency of the victim.
A close one's death as a plot device is not inherently bad. Even when the victim dies without agency, that can be truly tragic and be an intriguing plot point. The problem arises when this happens too often and when one demographic (women) are overrepresented as the helpless victims.
With Peter, he still has agency in designing his own demise (creating the Lizard serum). He is not just killed off by an outside source, e.g. by some other villain, but rather becomes the villain himself. He himself actively chooses to pursue the serum, although, with undesired consequences.
So, I think Peter's death is not as much a fridge as when Gwen died. Peter still holds agency in being active in the events that lead to his death, even if the choices he make are flawed. On the other hand, Gwen is killed by an outside source (The Green Goblin) and never speaks a word.
So yes, Peter in Gwen's world is written to simply die to further Gwen's development. But Peter still gets to have agency in his death unlike the women stuffed in the refrigerator.
@@Runsten_ That’s a good way to put it. By being partly responsible of his own death Peter is given agency in a way Gwen isn’t.
@@MouseOnAJourney I guess in that way Peter-Lizards death feels more Uncle Bens. Who was technically speaking also “fridged” to forward Peters arc.
I will always have a soft Spot for Raimis MJ and as the time goes on i appreciate her character a lot more
i think Raimi did a good job with MJ in his movies, she isn't a feisty and fierce as in the animated series or in the spectacular series but she fit the story raimi was aiming to tell, her character is understandable and complex, you know where she is coming from and why she acts that way, and it really does bug me when raimi fanboys get pissy about the fact that she doesn't make her life revolve around pater or refuse to accept that she is allowed to make bad choices, people love talk about how flawed Peter is but will shit on MJ for it.
Raimis MJ, like Peter is just a regular person who craves love and affection because she comes from abusive household, she dreams of becoming an actress, we are shown her lows, highs and lows again of her career, she loves peter because he is the only one who she doesn't need to put up a facade when talking to him. however despite the fact she loves him she accepts his rejection and tries to live her own life, even though it's dishonest she respects his boundaries and she is not afraid to put her foot down at peters mixed messages and express her annoyance at him, because just like peter her decisions were also not easy to make, the movies always allow her to make a choice both good and bad and they parallel with peter.
As much as i love gwen in TASM her life in the movies always revolve around peter (or at least a huge chunk of it) and she gets praised from the fanboys for being 'the better girl'. MJ from MCU is fine character but her only defining trait is her pessimistic personality, we know nothing about her life besides that she used to not like peter in the first movie then she fell in love with him in the second and now helps him in the third. These 2 characters mostly get praise from having their lifes revolve around Peter but They have a Problem when Raimis MJ has her own and it really says a lot.
also and i just have to add this, but i cannot stand the hypocrisy among raimi fanboys who lose their marbles over MJ 'jumping from boyfriend to boyfriend' but are perfectly fine with Peter still trying to persue MJ when she is still in a relationship? they also call MJ annoying when she tells Peter to stop sending these mixed messages at her when she is being perfectly reasonable. just because we are ment to root for peter to get together with mj doesn't mean his actions are any less selfish.
Thank you!
I think May's great responsibility and power speech was in reference to having compassion for these villains. I think given the way they are often treated and really robbed of their agency in these other movies by serums or devices it was nice to see them given a chance to improve themselves.
something i personally like about the mcu iteration of MJ and the "damsel in distress" trope is that it doesn't just feel like she's "spider-man's girlfriend". to me, she feels more like one of peter's (only two) friends (even tho she's his gf) and this is strengthened by the MJ x peter x ned dynamic. sure, she experiences a sort of "death" at the end of the movie, but so does ned, and peter is clearly upset over losing the both of them.
One other thing I liked about far from home's MJ being rescued scene is that after Peter disabled the drones trying to kill her she takes it as an opportunity to join the fight. All the other people are like "glad that's over" while she grabs a weapon and runs into the street.
Less than a min in and we got stunts-- the care and effort in your work (even at the cheesy bits) genuinely amazes me 💜
Go get 'em, tiger
I actually felt like the current Spider-Man films are an homage to the light hearted silver age. I love the idea of him graduating high school leads to a darker, more isolated chapter
Oh, you will LOVE Implicitly Pretentious' videos then. He makes a lot of stuff about the Silver Age era, as well as how MCU Spider-Man is not the "Iron Boy Jr." many people seem to think he is.
@theobuniel9643 I don't consider him iron boy jr but it was his journey to slef discovery
One quote from the Raimiverse that I remember and live by to this day, is when MJ said 'Everybody needs help sometimes, Peter. Even Spider-Man' to Peter.
Superior or inferior, at the end of the day we all need each other.
I would love your take on the mess that is feminism girl boss Black widow the movie that came too late.
Also I remember when Kingsman Secret Service was my favorite comic based film, but then they had to ruin it’s potential with the second movie killing off Roxy aka Lancelot in the first five minutes seemingly arbitrarily and/or for shock value?? all so we could have a rehash of the first movie with a duo of eggsy and harry as opposed to something actually fresh: a duo of Eggsy and Roxy working together.
oh god yeah a deep look at girl boss Black Widow would actually be amazing. it's honestly awful how they treated her and then tried to make it all better.
I do think there is a pretty big criticism to raise against the PS4 Spider-Man game's handling of MJ, in that they squeezed her into a completely different character mold in order to give her agency in the story, and to fans of MJ, it feels like they sacrificed a lot of what makes MJ who she is in the process, giving us a character who only shares her name and hair color. Like, I get why they did it, because they wanted to integrate her story into what the game was doing, but at the same time it feels like the 2018 equivalent to Gerry Conway's problem in 1973: there was a narrow view of what they could imagine to do with the character. The superhero's journalist girlfriend is as old as the superhero itself, after all, and has been an all too frequent well to draw from when superhero writers want the love interest to be an active part of the story. That isn't who MJ is, though, and I wish the dev team had workshopped it a little more to come up with an idea that would have fit her better. Great game, otherwise, that part just felt weird throughout.
Also, thanks for your honest assessment of No Way Home. Even as a big fan of the Raimi movies (all three, third especially, don't @ me), all through the hype cycle I couldn't manage to feel anything but tired about it, just in anticipation of all the problems you mentioned. It all just sounded like my favorite gum was coming back in style, and dumped onto an iteration of the franchise I haven't been enjoying. I'll catch it when it hits VOD, probably, but no sooner than that.
I think saying this movie was just fan service is pretty reductive. This movie was a huge step forward for the marvel movies in at least one way, in that it was actually about recognizing the underlying problems that create criminals and trying to help them rather than just brute forcing it like every other superhero movie. I’ve seen movies that exist solely to thrive off nostalgia and they don’t try this hard. Choosing this of all marvel movies to be hyper critical of feels pretty tone deaf.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 you're doing a lot of assuming in that last sentence that this is the one marvel movie i've been critical of, especially when i said i feel too tired to even see it after not liking the last two spider-man movies. sorry if it's tone deaf to not have much faith for how well they handle "addressing the underlying problems that create supervillains" when the mcu has been repeatedly tone deaf on those cause itself.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 this peter has killed 2 working class villains who ultimately was just trying to survive and make profit off of capitalistic bosses who took advantage of their work.
that aside, this movie IS fanservice. the rehabilitation narrative was pushed onto peter by the saviour complex preaching that may had put on peter. she essentially put the wellbeing of 5 adult strangers she did not know, all of which who had the capacity to be dangerous, above that of the teenage minor that is meant to be under her care. she put her ward at risk, and then herself at risk, which puts peter in a difficult financial and social situation. her priorities are shitty for a guardian of a literal minor. if peter had come to the conclusion for rehabilitation himself, id be okay bc i still think it's poor judgment (he could be causing far more deaths by having so many superpowered individuals in one universe) but hes a child, so poor judgment is expected.
sure, with great power comes great responsibility, but as a guardian, she is irresponsible.
@@gorimbaud I was referring to the video, not your comment.
@@dumbumbumbum8649 That doesn't come across when you say it as a reply to my comment, especially without specifying that. And you're _still_ doing just as much assumption about Verity with that last sentence, especially given how she has made her opinions more public, with not only other videos that have criticized Marvel movies, but one that was wholly about her misgivings with how the MCU has handled Spider-Man.
The statement that criticizing No Way Home "of all movies" is tone deaf is no less disingenuous no matter who you're directing it toward, especially if you're experiencing that criticism in a total vacuum. Nothing produced on that scale, and nothing involved with the kind of companies that are behind it, should ever be above criticism, no matter what clumsy attempts at progress you're giving them credit for.
I like the PS4 MJ, but I have an issue with two moments of her character:
1. While she is right in not wanting to be treated like a fragile damsel, the fact that she broke into a military base without any tool or training to defend herself in case things went wrong and still got mad at Peter for acting like she was made out of glass. Like, come on now, the first thing Peter saw when he reached the base was a guy pointing a gun to her face, cut the guy some slack.
2. When she is looking at the sculptures and paintings at the start of the game, she critiques Peters choice to wear a mask, saiyng that if she was a superhero she would want to be recognized by the things she did. That ticked me off a lot considering that the mask is the only thing preventing his loved ones (MJ included) from being targeted every single week by some random criminal or a super villain.
Couldn't say it any better
1) this is excellent analysis and I am enjoying it a lot 2) your hair looks incredible
Also, I’m absolutely positive that Tobey!Spidey died in a different cut of the film. I bet either test audiences hated it or they decided it made the film too about him rather than about Tom!Spidey. I enjoyed how he played the wise mentor role, though. It was nice.
Personally, I think comic MJ is one of the best characters in comics. I feel like she’s a better role model than any of the movie adaptations. She’s confident in herself and knows what she wants in a career and relationship. And she understandably struggles with Peters double life and how to support him in that life while maintaining her own identity.
Ive never been a fan of Rami’s MJ, mainly because she’s never really been that much of a damsel in distress. Especially in the recent comics. Two of my favorite recent comic runs were the Amazing Mary Jane and Renew Your Vows. Both take all the characters in a direction that I loved. Usually I’m not a fan of when MJ gets powers because I like that her strength comes from her will, but it actually works really well in Renew Your Vows. She’s not just a female version of Peter when in the suit, she still keeps her unique character traits.
@Erik Kemeey I like her aloof energy and dry sense of humor, but I think having Ned be Peters best friend from Homecoming detracts from their connection. We don’t really get to know her at all in Homecoming so it’s a little tough to get behind their pairing in Far From Home. If she and Peter were friends from the beginning and we got see more of her, I think I’d like her more than I already do. A lot of my opinion on her is shaped by Zendaya’s performance and not the writing.
My biggest issue with her is with her name. To me, calling her Michelle Jones instead of Mary Jane was a choice made so that they could backpeddle on calling her MJ in case audiences didn’t like her. Especially since they just now said her surname is Watson. They should’ve had the balls to call her Mary Jane Watson because there’s no reason MJ has to be a white Red head as long as you capture the essence of the character. Though, I will admit, I am upset that Zendaya never dyed her hair red for the role. I’ve seen her with red hair and she could make it work.
@@zerotohero1483 I couldn't agree more! (Honestly, I hope that MJ has finally red hair in those new Spidey's movies. I mean, she got in college, maybe she changed to be more like her comic version)
So apart from Tom Holland's Spiderman films & MCU stuff..I didn't watch Andrew Garfield's Spiderman movies, probably only watched the 1st Spiderman, but tell me how much I loved the film, because as you said it was an e v e n t! And shoot I was here for it! It was soooo interesting to learn about the women in Spiderman comics and how it played into the movies (made me feel disappointed as I was learning it.. ) But like you, I ultimately still thoroughly enjoyed and loved the movie- so I will be taking the fake nostalgia it made me feel and running away with it! Thanks for such a fun video!
The TASM films are a fucking mess storywise. But are worth it just for Andrew Garfield and Emma Stone’s chemistry and choreography.
Just in the patron's part I could notice that she is wearing spider-gost costume inside a refrigerator. I like this lil detail bc bsides gwen been given agency by making her a spidey, her death is still echoing on mainstream and they been doing gwen's death over and over again, even when the character herself had been theoretically redeemed in comics and sony's animation movie.
Yeah, I was bothered by him not telling MJ at the end (and also the spell). You're right, it's non-consensual and totally not a hero thing to do.
Ikr! He promised her and Ned he would remind them who he was. Even if it didn’t work out, he should have at least tried. It was their decision to continue to be a part of his life, yet the story framed it as him doing something heroic by not telling them, but that wasn’t just his decision to make.
In re analyzing No Way Home honestly, as much as I love it, it's a transitional movie, which isnt surprising given that it's the first TRUE film of phase 4, as well as being the first Spider-Man MCU film that doesnt rely on Tont Stark or the after effects of his death. Although that itself is ironic because it does kindof feel like Spider-Man is effectively taking the Iron Man role in these new Avengers, not necessarily in terms of character role (although we'll have to wait till the next Avengers film to know) but rather in how his movies are setting up the universe. Everybody else is getting 1 solo outing, except him. He gets 2 before his first run as a Veteran Avenger. It also ties off/ potentially restarts the previous Spider-Man franchises, gives us a new starting point on Peter learning responsibility, and gets peter to a new point in his life where he has to truly make his way as his own hero, now with no support. I'm hoping that his erasing MJ and Neds memories is part of its nature as a transitional movie, that this decision will have a real impact on how Peter handles the world around him, realizing that even this might not keep MJ safe and in fact may make things worse since she now doesnt know that she might be in danger. I hope the writers arent blind to how disrespectful it would be to have MJ be a more more confident and narratively autonomous character all through the movies but especially in this one, only to actually get her memories erased against her will and lose all that agency.
I hate how my instincts tell me to get immediately defensive in discussions like this.
I know better, but the instinct is still there, and I'm a bit ashamed of that.
I'm the same most of the times but it's great to acknowledge the feeling, then it will be more easy to actually listen to others and maybe change the mind a little (or a LOT) or maybe find more arguments to defend your position, it's very interesting actually.
There's no shame in having a different opinion and thinking by yourself, just in being rude about it. If you don't agree with what she's saying, then don't! Develop arguments to show people what you believe, just don't forget to listen to the other side, because opinions can always change. Me being a woman, I don't agree with half the arguments that video brings (actually, I don't agree with like, 60-80%), but I still saw the whole thing and took my own notes.
it bothered me so much that peter chose not to tell mj or ned the truth after she begged him to :((( i GET what they were doing but UGH
It's like, I know the did it do he doesn't have to drag them into his life and get them in danger and I understand, but then it's also like, "just tell them already, I can't handle this"
@@riveringleaf5568 and to me it's like.... it's not up for him to decide what's best for them? mj and ned made it abundantly clear what they wanted him to do and he decided not to let them in so did he Really make the choice for them?
This was an absolutely amazing video! I was captivated by every word. I will say aunt mays death in no way home received a lot of backlash for “discrediting uncle Ben” and it brought to my attention that the problem is just that aunt may said it and a general discrediting of a woman’s voice in this comic book movie.
As far as the females being used as a prop I agree and disagree, to me, Spider-Man is a tragic story in general. Especially with no way home it’s hammered in that “this is the fate/cost of being Spider-Man” the moral of Spider-Man is choices. He chooses to separate Peter and SM and continues to hide himself and these are the results of his actions. The literal blood sacrifices of loved ones need to be made for his origin to be complete.
I love the fridging literalization. I'm sure that was uncomfy for your neck but it was such a funny touch
Mad respect for reading out all those names with your neck crooked like that damn
I had no idea about that "keep Peter straight" thing and it is literally SO upsetting to me I legit wanna cry. I've seen Peter as bi for sooooo long, I think partly because I am bi and just extremely relate to him as a character but also because, and I'm not totally sure why, it just makes a lot of sense to me. He just screams bi energy and knowing Marvel is preventing that from happening - or at least was or is for the time being, whatever - really upsets me.
Anyway, loved the video and agreed with all of your points. I love pretty much every Spider-Man movie, he's my favorite superhero, I think it'd be impossible for me to hate a Spidey movie. But feminist ideals are definitely not a well-focused priority, aside from Into The Spider-Verse which is the best Spidey movie, and the PS4 game is one of the best pieces of Spidey media as well so 👀👀👀hope the films eventually learn some lessons from them.
Quick side note and sorry if someone else asked this, but where did you get the Gwen hoodie?! I desperately need that in my life.
i really enjoyed your critique! you articulated your points very well and brings some points together i hadn't connected before. Also, slight tangent: when you brought up the issues with consent and peter erasing mj's memories & just deiding things for here it reminded me of the utter erasure of Peggy Carter at the end of the last avengers movie. cap came in and apparently completely rewrote peggy's narrative which canonically was pretty badass and a WHOLE FrEAKING SHOW about her dealing with sexism in the 50s-60's (which of course got cancelled cuz "bad ratings" despite the fact that it was doing better than more male lead ones at the same time) seemingly without discussing it first because Steve somehow "deserved it" after everything he sacrificed? Like peggy was just a war wife waiting for her man to return from the war and not a whole amazing character on her own, a prize just waiting around for him? yeah, men taking agency away really gets to me and the whole franchise has some serious issues on how it treats its women.
I really like how thorough this video is on mentioning all of the Spider-man properties :)
I like how they gave MJ agency in the PS4 Spider-man game, but I can't help but wish that they did it without making her a reporter--it makes her too much like Lois Lane and too little like MJ, who is a strong and self-actualized woman in spite of or actually because of her job as an actress and model.
I wish the gamemakers had the confidence to show that a woman can be in charge of her own life and a good role model even in stereotypically "female" occupation.
I really loved "Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse" when it came out. To me, it is the best Spider-Man movie by and so far, really amazing; I also love how it isn't just a retelling of a comic that is being captured frame by frame 1:1, but that it makes such a good use of just so many trademarks of the artistic language unique to the cinema, and that at the same time it pays great homage to comics as an art-form in their own right: Alle these little aesthetic references to the comics origin of Spider-Man and the Spider-Verse were amazing and beautiful to watch and marvel at.
I think it’s still flawed to have Michelle Jones totally equated to the MJ of the comics? They shouldn’t have named her MJ if they wanted to make an entirely new character (who Michelle totally is) but they caught her up in the same stuff alas.
I read someone pitching that MJ in the MCU postNWH left herself a note “FIND PETER/YOU KNOW SPIDER-MAN” or something that wouldn’t be erased by the spell & it would lead her to finding a workaround from the spell just so she could trigger her own memories & yell at him. Because yeah, Michelle does deserve to rip into Peter because he did violate that promise. He was punished for being a dumbass, but so was Ned and MJ. Which, is unfortunate. I hope it gets followed up on.
Idk I didn’t find NWH nostalgic persay? Because I literally had never seen any Spider-Man media except films that came out after 2014. So? Idk?
Yeah his friends are honestly what I like best about this Spiderman. And they were done dirty by him. Ugh.
i never even considered the fact that they may never remember i'm pretty sure they will especially since ned was revealed to have powers lol
The thing is they don't seem to have wanted to make a new character as now it's even revealed that one of her last names is Watson.
@@veelogation3890 well this is a first. Usually all I see are people who instead hate Ned and MJ.
Idk about this, but in fact you can see in the credits, when they show Zendaya's name, there's written above her head "Who's Peter Parker" or something like that.
One of the best parts of the video other than the very well engaging critique is that this used footage from the old Peter face from spidey ps4
i did feel weird after watching new spiderman movies. despite the loaded adventures and action scenes (i even cried when andrews spidey saved mj) i felt like nothing really happened. and now i know why I ALREADY SAW ALL OF THIS
It's so cool to see a person who has transitioned but still identifies as genderqueer. I'm transmasculine and take T and plan on getting top surgery but still identify as nonbinary. Anyways, it makes me feel very valid and happy. Wonderful video as always.
I know im an internet stranger and it doesn't matter much but just wanna remind you that being nonbinary, it doesn't look a certain way and you don't owe people androgeny my friend. And also I hope you're doing ok these days 💜
love love love your video! i'm personally petitioning for Felicia Hardy to be introduced in the next Spider-man movie. I think post nwh Peter and her would be very interesting to see together and her story line should definitely be able to break the mold!
Great critique of the franchise as a whole and the nwh movie! I think I agree for the most part
As another commenter pointed out, one thing I prefer about Raimi MJ over any other video game and MCU adaptation is that she has her own life which doesn't revolve around Peter, if we don't count those moments when she gets abducted every movie ... Otherwise, she has her own thing going on. MCU adaptation is also superior to the video game adaptation, because in video games it felt like the writers were overcompensating, like a woman who is feminine and is a model, cannot possibly be an interesting character or a strong person, so they had to make her Lois Lane and on top of that give her absurd amounts of plot armor that even Spider-man doesn't have, in the second game it's gotten to the point where she can take a few shots to her face and one-shot literally every regular enemy in the game who usually take a couple hits and gadgets for Spider-man to defeat, it feels patronizing frankly and also makes the said goons hard to be taken seriously. And yeah, game MJ also doesn't seem to have a life outside of Spider-man.
Imagine if we had a supermodel\ actress MJ and they would live together in some NY loft with MJ basically bringing home the money while Peter does the hero stuff. Pretty interesting dynamic I think. MJ subsidizing Spider-man lol.
If the contract just says he can't be homosexual he could still be bi right?
I keep having conversations with people about the most recent spiderman film because I had hoped MJ wouldn't be diminished to just a plot point and yet, here we are. I'm so glad to know other people see the issues and are willing to call them out and not just sit in the bliss of ignorance. Thank you for articulating what I keep trying to say.
As someone who has zero nostalgia for any of the past Spider-Man films, No Way Home was everything I had been dreading about a nostalgia-bait movie and all of the retreading tired story beats I'd been hoping the new Spider-Man movies would avoid as much as they could. I'd never seen any of the original trilogy and only saw the Lizard movie from Garfield's run (a friend of mine tried to force me to watch Amazing 2 because it was "so good" but I fell asleep on their couch like a third of the way through it). I wouldn't go so far as to say it was "awful, boring", like you said it would have been if the first five movies hadn't happened, but... it was basically just a much-worse version of Spider-Verse and everyone either has nostalgia blinders on or they're stuck in the Animation Age Ghetto live-action-superiority brainrot of "cartoons are bad!".
Also Aunt May getting fridged was bullshit, and him not telling his friends after their memories got wiped was bullshit, come the fuck on. God. Just completely making the first two movies pointless.
I had nostalgia for the Spiderman movies and even I thought it was nostalgia bait and not a very good one in a narrative sense. Like I can't help but think what a dumbass Holland's Peter was and how horribly contrived everything is. Just campy fun and nothing substantially interesting. Kind of like most Marvel movies, they're just junk food for me but I do love me some junk food.
What was he supposed to do with his friends? If somebody you didn't know came up to you in your place of work and told you that the entire world had them wiped from memory, but that the two of you were in love and should get back together, how would you respond? I would think they were crazy. If he came up with a bunch of facts to prove he knew me, I'd think he was a stalker.
I love MJ becoming Better Louis Lane
We live for it
Hi I'm sorry this is unrelated but I've only recently discovered your channel and this is my third video and seeing Krtek in the first few frames brought joy to my heart.
loved this!
i also adore the PS4 game and how MJ was developed as a character - the part where she jumps always stuck with me but this really articulated why it was so cool. it's her CHOICE, it's a batshit choice, it demonstrates her trust in Peter and also her bravery / nerve.
Fridging yourself in the first seconds really got me 💀
omg... the kitty while you're reading patron names... great video, as usual!!!
i'm not even a fan of spiderman but your videos are always a delight to watch! this one was no exception. if i wasn't subscribed already, i would definitely hit that subscribe button after your spiderweb show off hahaha
I love the natural salt and pepper hair! Mine is coming in like that and now I have an idea how I look/will look. You would be surprised, I can't find natural hair color before someone's a full silver fox, and here is this TH-camr I watch, being a role model, expanding horizons, pushing boundaries, creating riveting and immersive analysis, and showing me what natural greying hair actually looks like in a warm color on top of it. I eagerly await what else I may learn here, thank you for this channel and such gorgeous content! Also you never hurt my ears so whoever does audio is amazing!!
Most excellent analysis. Great work.
Spider-Man is an ARACHNA-male.
Even rarer then SIGMA 0.o0O1%
I'm just seeing this now, and it's a fantastic, really insightful look at the franchise and its role as a mirror of the superhero genre as a whole. I'm not immune to rolling my eyes when people try too hard to look for social commentary in film or TV, but this was a genuinely intriguing and well-reasoned critique. Bravo.
Loved this. Not totally related but since you were talking about Peter learning responsibility etc., I think a really big mistake in no way home was that the whole spell-fuck-situation was really dr. strange's fault, since he didn't explain the full effects of the spell at all until it was in motion. He was all "Oh this is dangerous and tricky blabla" but didnt care to share the necessary information for Peter to give informed consent like you would, say, before any medical procedure.
Lmao, "Is this like Thanos? Just inevitable?" All your little quips are so funny! Very apropos and well-timed.
My neck got so uncomfortable watching you read out those special thanks. The cat cameos were delightful, though.
Wonderful video! New to your content and loving it!
Thanks for critiquing all of these films equally I know everyone’s got their favourites and least favourites but I feel like this was a very fair look at them
I love your cat. It's just like, 'You're sitting in a box! I want to sit in a box!'
Spider-Gwen is a character I have mixed feelings on. On one hand she's a cool character by herself, on the other, she has nothing to do with 616 Gwen Stacey other than her name and being blond. She's not a divergent character, she's and alternate one.
And that feels weird in the comics, where she exists in a space that was irreparably changed by her namesakes death. Heck, Spider-Gwen probably wouldn't exist if Gwen hadn't died and become an icon after. Yet Spider-Gwen lends no commentary on her meta-origins. At best she lets Marvel shrug it's shoulders and say "Oh, Gwen's death wasn't the result of any particular attitude towards women and female love interests, 616 Gwen Stacey just got unlucky. See, in this one (where her attitude is more appealing to modern readers) she's a spider-person".
I don't know. Just feels unfair that Jason Hood gets to become the Red Hood whilst Gwen's body gets dug up and rebureied for the millionth time.
I see what you mean, some Spider Gwen comics that I like have given Gwen this existential dread because she learns about herself dying in multiple different universes to the point where it seems like a pattern and she feels this weight like she’s destined to die young and she has deal with that and learn to move past it. It’s at least a bit more interesting and let’s classic Gwen’s roots affect her modernized alternate version self.
@@mca7905 I should dig round for those stories, that would be the kind of thing I'd like to see.
I think it doesn't help that there seem to be a lot of one off alternate Gwen's that draw from Spider-Gwen more then 616.
It's complicated because it does make sense in the context of the multiverse, it's just the baggage of those foundational stories that make it feel strange.
Having read a good chunk of the spider gwen run; to me she has a lot more of daredevil in her than Spider-Man, and that’s a good thing.
For what it's worth Jason kind of has the opposite problem; they won't let him move on from his death.
Brilliant and insightful as always!
Oh no my finger! It's ringing the bell so that I am always alerted to new posts from this amazing channel!
I actually really liked MJ in No Way Home. I'm glad they didn't give her powers. Not to say that Spider Gwen isn't totally the best, but not every woman needs to be empowered by literal power. I really liked how MJ was always pulling the team together, how she got to have her own character arc and how whenever Peter allowed his friends to help, things actually were seen to be significantly better. I was a bit mixed about the ending. Like, on one had it was kinda cool to see Spiderman as being a really flawed human. But I guess that only works if you interpret the ending how I do. Which is: Peter was traumatized by the events of the film and actually ended the movie in a significantly worse place than where he started it. His friends probably could have helped him heal, but he was given the perfect method of pushing them away, in violation of their trust and wishes, and he does it.
Even Dr. Strange was shown to be kind of an impulsive idiot in the movie. No engineer worth their salt would start mucking around in a live system without at least getting proper requirements first. Idk, I thought the movie kinda showed how superheroes need to have strong connections to normal humans, or they kinda... start losing touch with how much power they actually wield and what the stakes actually are
So glad I always inexplicably sit through the Patreon credits because I was rewarded with cat antics
I don't fully agree with this video essay but i enjoyed watching, good work
I’m really enjoying working through your entire back catalogue. So grateful the algorithm directed me to you! Also, your cat being so concerned for you in the fridge was hilarious!
Love the way you shoot. makes me come back for the content. Kudos.
Random and not necessarily related but Gravity Rush is the best Spider Gwen video game. Kat in that game is like spidergirl/supergirl/a ninja turtle (her home is in the sewers). Plus in her 2nd game her rival basically becomes her girlfriend like Jeanne in Bayonetta 2
Found you today and LOOOOVE the women in refrigerators reference in the video opening
I love your review. I also love your spider costumes. Thanks for questioning the sexism in the series.
As a life-long spiderman nerd, NWH was amazing and left me reinvigorated for spiderman content (which lead to a weeklong binge), but i was genuinely shocked when Pete went and made a decision without consulting his team in the exact way he did an entire movie ago. like. GUYS THIS IS THE STORY BEAT WHERE YOU DO THE OPPOSITE THING TO SHOW GROWTH!
I loved the inclusion of a bunch of spidermans but i do think it was an oversight not to include SpiderGwen or some of the other diverse spidermen from other universes as a soft introduction. You can argue that SpiderGwen wouldn't be eligible to know "Peter PArker is spiderman" but it would be easy to write around that
I still don't understand how saving the villains in no way home would change their universes, isn't it like changing the past by time travelling? They already explained how that doesn't change the future it just creates an alternative reality.
(Sorry for the late reply but I only just found this video and felt like I could add something) I think what the movie is going for is that despite us having meta knowledge that these guys are villains and are capable of great harm that doesnt make them a lost cause because the time they spend in MCU is still real to them and those around them (incredibly tacky when you say it like that). In real life for instance, if you knew, without a shadow of a doubt someone would grow up to do some bad shit, would you still try and show them compassion in an attempt to mitigate that suffering? Of course in reality we have no way of knowing that but I guess thats why its important to make a stand and shoot for compassion regardless.
"Why would Pepper Potts, who is now a billionaire, leave Peter with nothing?"
because she's a billionaire
Great video, very insightful and well researched, as always!
Also, thanks for the chuckle of imagining you unplugging and emptying your entire fridge just for the “fridged woman” gag... Commit To The Bit, indeed. 😆
Omg thank you so much for making this video. My bf and I were so angry after watching NWH for all the reasons you listed off
And as a gay man who identifies in a particular way with superheroes, their secret identities, and when they reveal those identities to the ones they love and they accept them 100%, Spider-Man, for all intents and purposes, going “back in the closet” at the end of the movie broke my heart
So yeah, I agree. Spider-Man movies need to be waaaay more feminist and queer-friendly. And relative to all the other MCU movies they’re waaaay behind, especially after this last movie
same! as a gay trans guy, i feel like superheroes, but especially peter parker echos the queer experience, in terms of coming out, like he's hiding it for months, years, however long, and its defiinietly taking a toll on personal life, and he 'comes out' and its alright for a while until mysterio (think about it, all the other villains knew who their spidermen were peter, but are allies and didn't out him. mysterios kind of a homophobe) essentially outs him as spiderman, making everything so much more complicated, as being out always is. Everyone has so many questions (the reporters) and he feels like he's being critized all the time (which he is). I could go on and on tbh. I also agree 100%, im so dissapointed that this movie fell back on the sexist 'death of gwen stacy' trope. And i think andrew is right, why can't it be *ben* stacy or a guy mj?
"They make me chuckle. Like a horse- who chuckles!"
You constantly pointing out just how formulaic the plots are *kills* me, every single time. 😂
Always a pleasure watching your vids. And gotta love email leaks... And I love that moment with your nephew. I was at a youth camp last summer and I was sketching Spider-Gwen and this thirteen-year-old boy loved it. It's amazing.
The big problem is that the Raimi Mary Jane is a redhead Gwen Stacy.