Hi Brad I missed this vid. My take . . During manufacture the liner is clamped for boring using the outside machined areas top and bottom. Then the aluminium fins are cast around it. The rough cast iron provides good thermal contact and adhesion. Looking at the bonding on your cylinder I can't see how it could possibly have moved. If it did move, when you cut it up the liner and cylinder would fall apart easily as the bonding would have failed. If oil was leaking between the cyl and liner in the drain hole area, it would be obvious if you cut that section apart.
CNC machinist here, here what it looks like to me. So the steel liner appears to be a casting that was machined before the aluminum was cast around it. You are correct about that. I bet the thing was overheated witch is why the liner separated. Aluminum expands more than steel and you did mention it modified to become a performance engine. It doesn't take much. Edit : Noticed an error I made. For the record, it's the aluminum that expands and change shape dimensionally more than steel.
The coefficient of thermal expansion of aluminum is greater than that of steel. Δ Length (in inches) = Length (in inches) * Δ Temperature (in °F) * ε (in / °F). Each metal has its own response characteristic, ε, known as the coefficient of thermal expansion. ε for steel is 0.0000065 / °F. For aluminum, ε is 0.0000128 / °F. Therefore it would appear that the aluminum, would expand or grow more than the steel if at the same temperature
@TheTarrMan lol, the point is still valid. If the two metals expand at different rates when heated then at some point they will break any bond they had. I am also leaning towards an overheat caused the separation.
@lance8814 I've seen this happen a couple more times since making this video on other bikes. It does indeed appear to be caused by overheating. You'll see either the steel liner has separated from the aluminum cylinder ( can catch it with you nail) ( or see the gap by eye). Sometimes, the steel liner will be a like .002 longer, both out top of the cylinder and also protuding out of the bottom like .002. Like the aluminum has shrunk. It's not comon, and I've only seen it on bilt engines. Never on non modified stock engines.
About 25 years ago I had a oil oozing between the heads and cylinders. I had a stroker motor, after market big bore cylinders, 700 lift cam with heavy duty springs, dual coil single fire ignition , flowed & ported heads. I didn't have much gasket space between the cylinder and the oil return and you know you sure get some movement and vibration on the heads. I plugged the oil return that trickled down the cylinder and tapped into the heads and ran my my oil return on the outside down into the cases, looked pretty trick and solved my problem.
I've been thinking and wanting to do that on other setups. Maybe one day I'll get around to. But now with Milwaukee8s out and how much more room they have between the cylinder and oil drains I'll probably never get about to doing it.
Thank you Brad for sharing this info. Now here is my thoughts. As we all know aluminum and steel have different expansion rates and aluminum expands a great deal more tham steel does. So when the aluminum pushes agaisnt the head it begines to displace itself outward and contracts different than its original shape when cooling. Now that being the rear cylinder its subject to much greater heat and therefore more pressure from greater expansion distorting its position over time. Thank you for the great video. I would have never looked to see the distortion without you sharing your expertise.
Brad, that was a wizard of an idea. The evolution of a floating sleeve to a cast around sleeve. I'm with Richard. Where is the oil between liner and aluminum? My take is more off the wall... whereas, who grew or who shrunk? Torque a cast split that did not move, but the aluminum compressed down on the edge of the cast iron?
At 13:25 you asked why the casting had to be like that and the picture gave the likely answer. Look at the oil drain locating dowel. It is so close to the edge of the liner that to machine it in they needed to machine the liner a little for clearance. Note the locating dowels and the cylinder stud locations are the same for a 110 motor as all previous twin cam cylinders that have a smaller bore and thus more room for the locating dowels. It seems the manufacturer didn't realize that machining away the spiny lock on the cast iron sleeve would cause a heat separation and a leak with the 110 cylinder!
It’s a unusual abnormality for sure. Maybe in the future I’ll cut open a 88 ci twin cylinder and compare the two, I have some old extras laying around. I actually have some milwaukee 8s also. It would be interesting if there different. Just to know. And I have all those extra blades left! Lol .
My 2018 FLTRX @ 18,000 miles experienced a failed rear cylinder head gasket, replaced it (myself) with now +24,000 miles on bike & so far its holding. Really wishing I had seen this video prior to tear down. I do not recall anything that oblivious. Hoping Brad you give so insight on these new big bore kits to take a 107 to 119. 2018 FLTRX REDSHIFT 468 cam D&D exhaust Thundermax tuner SE high flow air cleaner.
Having this problem (oil leak read head) and I'm hoping my sleeve inst out a few though like that one. We'll know in a few months when I pull the engine
@@HarleyDavidsonWizard its an 07 Nighster(XL1200N). yes, still stock cylinders and heads. V&H pipes, heavy snorkel breather and a powerpack. Other than that the parts are stock.
There's another guy on TH-cam who had some cylinder cross sections. Claims factory Harley are known for air pocket voids,and the other brand ( I assume S&S) are cast under vacuum to avoid air pockets. He runs all steel finned cylinders on his drag bike.
In my opinion I think the the head was moving around alittle from cylinder stud clamping issues, which lead to oil being able to leak out of the drain and around the cylinder liner, leading to the liner problems. After inspecting the cylinder during this vid, I noticed the bottom machined area of the liner was blue in color and the top machined area was brownish/black. I checked it out more this morning and it does indeed look like the brownish/black machined area on the liner is oil that had baked in there. The bike has OEM studs and I original torqued the head to the specs that came with the head gaskets. So when it goes back together I have new fueling ARP cylinder studs and T-man is going to go over and freshin up the heads and clean up the mating surfaces so that should get it where it needs to be. I dont know much about the 131 other than the literature thats already out the but in the next week we should have our first 131 kit and I'm doing the install on that also. Thanks for the question and view!
Maybe. I was kinda thinking heat expansion at first but then the bottom of the cylinder has that larger smooth portion also. After watching the video, it’s also weird how the cylinder is discolored on the smooth parts, I would assume it’s from a heat treating process. But the edges of where the color is so well defined. It’s cra. Thanks for the question and view!
I did the 110 cylinders/pistons and it's leaking at the base of the cylinder. I used the Cometic gasket kit and I'm wondering if H-D base o-rings are better.
@@HarleyDavidsonWizard my bike is chirping and seems head gaskets blown blower air, I had s ping for while at quarter throttle or over and been easing up to speed . Now even at idle its obvious head gasket is blown. Woukd cylinder not firing cause this and just coil and one cylinders acting like a pump or I need a top end? Can I ride to work like this wo breaking down or melting hole in cylinder lol , my bikes a 95 roadking 15k but fully custom built I'm guessing has stage 3 kit installed maybe higher comp than stock thanks for your help in advance I gave u a sun 💯 I use the millwakje sawzall blades not to bad
I believe I have the same issue on my 2000 1200xlc. However I plan to sand the head down a bit and use a Cometic gasket and hope for the best. :) I'm sure it will hold but this definitely wasn't the best design. However I love the bike it's been pretty nice but I'm looking to sell it now, I'm off to other adventures.
Harley out sources these parts, there is a company in milwaukee that does the work a big foundry, they had a display case in the airport for years saw it every time I transited thru, hey thoses are harley parts! In that display case. Warrenty parts, inform motor co pany, send parts in.
These particular parts and the vehicle it is on is out of warranty. Its a heavily modified engine and sometimes shit happens but its just interesting to see how things are made sometimes. Thanks for the view!
I would have drilled and and installed a grease fitting, drilled a relief orifice for gas escape, flushed with acetone, then pre heated the jug, using a grease gun for its force pump it full of JB Weld, or probably just scrapped it
it is very simple, don't over think it. It simply over heated and cooked the rear cylinder. I have seen this many times with outboard motors cylinders over the past 35 years.
waste of time ??? not sure yet but thank you for cutting it open, i was hoping to see a new bore in the heat sink fins and pressed in liner with glue in liners like on my car engines.. and that word you were looking for is finish on that part where the turned part of the sleeve is that looks like a it was machined on a lathe with lines on it is called a finish. i was a machinist for 15 years on Helicopters and jet building for the Government ...
Hi Brad I missed this vid. My take . . During manufacture the liner is clamped for boring using the outside machined areas top and bottom. Then the aluminium fins are cast around it. The rough cast iron provides good thermal contact and adhesion. Looking at the bonding on your cylinder I can't see how it could possibly have moved. If it did move, when you cut it up the liner and cylinder would fall apart easily as the bonding would have failed. If oil was leaking between the cyl and liner in the drain hole area, it would be obvious if you cut that section apart.
CNC machinist here, here what it looks like to me. So the steel liner appears to be a casting that was machined before the aluminum was cast around it. You are correct about that.
I bet the thing was overheated witch is why the liner separated. Aluminum expands more than steel and you did mention it modified to become a performance engine. It doesn't take much.
Edit : Noticed an error I made. For the record, it's the aluminum that expands and change shape dimensionally more than steel.
BINGO
The coefficient of thermal expansion of aluminum is greater than that of steel. Δ Length (in inches) = Length (in inches) * Δ Temperature (in °F) * ε (in / °F). Each metal has its own response characteristic, ε, known as the coefficient of thermal expansion. ε for steel is 0.0000065 / °F. For aluminum, ε is 0.0000128 / °F. Therefore it would appear that the aluminum, would expand or grow more than the steel if at the same temperature
@@anthonyloscavio7532 Well I got schooled.
@TheTarrMan lol, the point is still valid. If the two metals expand at different rates when heated then at some point they will break any bond they had. I am also leaning towards an overheat caused the separation.
@lance8814 I've seen this happen a couple more times since making this video on other bikes. It does indeed appear to be caused by overheating. You'll see either the steel liner has separated from the aluminum cylinder ( can catch it with you nail) ( or see the gap by eye). Sometimes, the steel liner will be a like .002 longer, both out top of the cylinder and also protuding out of the bottom like .002. Like the aluminum has shrunk. It's not comon, and I've only seen it on bilt engines. Never on non modified stock engines.
About 25 years ago I had a oil oozing between the heads and cylinders. I had a stroker motor, after market big bore cylinders, 700 lift cam with heavy duty springs, dual coil single fire ignition , flowed & ported heads. I didn't have much gasket space between the cylinder and the oil return and you know you sure get some movement and vibration on the heads. I plugged the oil return that trickled down the cylinder and tapped into the heads and ran my my oil return on the outside down into the cases, looked pretty trick and solved my problem.
I've been thinking and wanting to do that on other setups. Maybe one day I'll get around to. But now with Milwaukee8s out and how much more room they have between the cylinder and oil drains I'll probably never get about to doing it.
Thank you Brad for sharing this info. Now here is my thoughts. As we all know aluminum and steel have different expansion rates and aluminum expands a great deal more tham steel does. So when the aluminum pushes agaisnt the head it begines to displace itself outward and contracts different than its original shape when cooling. Now that being the rear cylinder its subject to much greater heat and therefore more pressure from greater expansion distorting its position over time. Thank you for the great video. I would have never looked to see the distortion without you sharing your expertise.
Brad, that was a wizard of an idea. The evolution of a floating sleeve to a cast around sleeve. I'm with Richard. Where is the oil between liner and aluminum? My take is more off the wall... whereas, who grew or who shrunk? Torque a cast split that did not move, but the aluminum compressed down on the edge of the cast iron?
At 13:25 you asked why the casting had to be like that and the picture gave the likely answer. Look at the oil drain locating dowel. It is so close to the edge of the liner that to machine it in they needed to machine the liner a little for clearance. Note the locating dowels and the cylinder stud locations are the same for a 110 motor as all previous twin cam cylinders that have a smaller bore and thus more room for the locating dowels. It seems the manufacturer didn't realize that machining away the spiny lock on the cast iron sleeve would cause a heat separation and a leak with the 110 cylinder!
Great information. Thanks for the view.
The grooves are there to keep the sleeve from slipping. I'm not sure how it moved unless it was made poorly.
It’s a unusual abnormality for sure. Maybe in the future I’ll cut open a 88 ci twin cylinder and compare the two, I have some old extras laying around. I actually have some milwaukee 8s also. It would be interesting if there different. Just to know. And I have all those extra blades left! Lol .
My thoughts exactly
Awesome video so thanks for making it!! I hope the bosses conversation went well.
lol. It did. They were interested in using my gopro. lol
My 2018 FLTRX @ 18,000 miles experienced a failed rear cylinder head gasket, replaced it (myself) with now +24,000 miles on bike & so far its holding. Really wishing I had seen this video prior to tear down. I do not recall anything that oblivious.
Hoping Brad you give so insight on these new big bore kits to take a 107 to 119.
2018 FLTRX
REDSHIFT 468 cam
D&D exhaust
Thundermax tuner
SE high flow air cleaner.
I've heard 90's BMW had a issue with cylinder sleeves in aluminum block,and that's why you don't see many of them.
Having this problem (oil leak read head) and I'm hoping my sleeve inst out a few though like that one. We'll know in a few months when I pull the engine
What size of engine do you have. Are they stock cylinders and heads?
@@HarleyDavidsonWizard its an 07 Nighster(XL1200N). yes, still stock cylinders and heads. V&H pipes, heavy snorkel breather and a powerpack. Other than that the parts are stock.
Thank you
Overheated. For the steel of the spigot end to turn blue grey like that it reached temps of +600
i thought they were pressed in you can still see the cross hatch
There's another guy on TH-cam who had some cylinder cross sections. Claims factory Harley are known for air pocket voids,and the other brand ( I assume S&S) are cast under vacuum to avoid air pockets.
He runs all steel finned cylinders on his drag bike.
Do you think that engine was overheating? And do you know anything about the new 131 crate motor from Harley?
In my opinion I think the the head was moving around alittle from cylinder stud clamping issues, which lead to oil being able to leak out of the drain and around the cylinder liner, leading to the liner problems. After inspecting the cylinder during this vid, I noticed the bottom machined area of the liner was blue in color and the top machined area was brownish/black. I checked it out more this morning and it does indeed look like the brownish/black machined area on the liner is oil that had baked in there. The bike has OEM studs and I original torqued the head to the specs that came with the head gaskets. So when it goes back together I have new fueling ARP cylinder studs and T-man is going to go over and freshin up the heads and clean up the mating surfaces so that should get it where it needs to be. I dont know much about the 131 other than the literature thats already out the but in the next week we should have our first 131 kit and I'm doing the install on that also. Thanks for the question and view!
Maybe the smooth portions are to allow for expansion from heat and head tourqe?
Maybe. I was kinda thinking heat expansion at first but then the bottom of the cylinder has that larger smooth portion also. After watching the video, it’s also weird how the cylinder is discolored on the smooth parts, I would assume it’s from a heat treating process. But the edges of where the color is so well defined. It’s cra. Thanks for the question and view!
It would be a nice design if the sleave could be pressed out & a new one installed.
Ya it would. But then again new cylinders aren't very expensive.
I did the 110 cylinders/pistons and it's leaking at the base of the cylinder. I used the Cometic gasket kit and I'm wondering if H-D base o-rings are better.
Did you do the screaming 110 bolt on cylinder kit?
@@HarleyDavidsonWizard my bike is chirping and seems head gaskets blown blower air, I had s ping for while at quarter throttle or over and been easing up to speed . Now even at idle its obvious head gasket is blown. Woukd cylinder not firing cause this and just coil and one cylinders acting like a pump or I need a top end? Can I ride to work like this wo breaking down or melting hole in cylinder lol , my bikes a 95 roadking 15k but fully custom built I'm guessing has stage 3 kit installed maybe higher comp than stock thanks for your help in advance I gave u a sun 💯 I use the millwakje sawzall blades not to bad
Donny Petersen talks about the 110 cylinder liner casting deficiency in his book "Performancing the Twin Cam". All the answers are there for this.
Great information. Thanks for the view.
I believe I have the same issue on my 2000 1200xlc. However I plan to sand the head down a bit and use a Cometic gasket and hope for the best. :) I'm sure it will hold but this definitely wasn't the best design. However I love the bike it's been pretty nice but I'm looking to sell it now, I'm off to other adventures.
I believe the steel liner is cool down super cold, and the aluminum ceilenf
i burst out laughing when you said Wizzard
The cylinder for a 110 according to Donny's findings has the spiny lock not cast to the top unlike the 88 and 96 inch cylinders.
Great information. Thanks for the view.
Dear friends...so how you solve the leaking oil on this rear engine block. Is it adding gasket filler on dowel pin? Or...
Please advise 🙏🏻
Knock2 🤗
If you ever do this again make both cuts but don't cut through the sleeve then drive a chisel into the cut and it will pop apart
I will try that!
Cast aluminum around a ductile iron externally banded / rimmed sleeve
Great info
Thanks for the view!
Harley out sources these parts, there is a company in milwaukee that does the work a big foundry, they had a display case in the airport for years saw it every time I transited thru, hey thoses are harley parts! In that display case. Warrenty parts, inform motor co pany, send parts in.
These particular parts and the vehicle it is on is out of warranty. Its a heavily modified engine and sometimes shit happens but its just interesting to see how things are made sometimes. Thanks for the view!
Sorry, The aluminum part of the cylinder is heat it up and then both parts are pressed together I believe that’s how it’s put together,
I would have drilled and and installed a grease fitting, drilled a relief orifice for gas escape, flushed with acetone, then pre heated the jug, using a grease gun for its force pump it full of JB Weld, or probably just scrapped it
it is very simple, don't over think it. It simply over heated and cooked the rear cylinder.
I have seen this many times with outboard motors cylinders over the past 35 years.
waste of time ??? not sure yet but thank you for cutting it open, i was hoping to see a new bore in the heat sink fins and pressed in liner with glue in liners like on my car engines.. and that word you were looking for is finish on that part where the turned part of the sleeve is that looks like a it was machined on a lathe with lines on it is called a finish. i was a machinist for 15 years on Helicopters and jet building for the Government ...
Ya it was a waste of time but I was curious.