Does a recirculating hot water pump really do the job?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 มิ.ย. 2024
- Check out the amazing comments on this video. You will get an education from many opinions and many optional systems.
Update: After two years of using the pump, I am having an issue. After about the first 6 months the valve started making a clicking sound after the hot water was turned on anywhere in the house. Look for my recent video showing how I have taken care of the clicking problem:
• Hot Water Recirculatin...
In this video, I will show some simple demonstrations of what these pumps can do for you.
Introduction: 0:00
Demonstration of waste: 0:53
Pump Explained 5:39
Suggested Pumps 7:25
Add Voice Control 8:25
Installation 10:30
Success Test 13:01
Suggested recirculating pumps based only on my experience and reviews. (I have no connection with either of these companies. Shop around the prices will fluctuate in a short time.
Grundfos
www.amazon.com/Grundfos-GRU-5...
Watts Premier
www.amazon.com/Watts-500800-I...
Comment from Energy Engineer here. This comment applies to a recirculation system that has the pump on continuously. While you may save water by using it instead of putting it down the drain, but you will increase, not decrease energy consumption by installing a water circulation pump to provide quick hot water. By circulating the water, you not only have tank heat loss, but add piping loss (even if insulated). Also there is the cost of running the pump.
This is an example of what I'm talking about where I connected metering equipment to monitor energy consumption:
Five story office building with 500 gallon hot water tank in the penthouse. By running the small recirculating pump, it was costing them $4000 per year (almost all from piping heat loss, pump energy use very small). My recommendation to the building owners was turning off the recirculating pump for 12 hours at night when no one was in the building, saving them $2000 per year on energy costs.
I agree with your thoughts in the example. My real world situation is living in a single story house of 1300 sq/ft with a run of insulated copper pipe of about 20 feet. This system is on-demand and runs not more than 5-10 minutes a day. In my situation, I do not worry about heat loss and energy consumption with a pump that runs for about 18 cents a day. Thank you for your response.
Sounds good. Different than my example for sure. The dollar amount on the building surprised me and couldn't easily be estimated, so I measured energy use at 24 hr/day and compared to running 12 hr/day.@@gfotinakes316
Thanks for this comment. It always seemed counterintuitive to me that a recirculating system could save energy, due to ongoing pipe losses. Nice to hear my intuition was right! In a place where air conditioning is used much of the year, this would make it doubly inefficient, since the pipe losses must also be cooled away.
I live in a 90-unit apartment building in a European country where air conditioning is rare, but heating is needed much of the year. My building has hot water recirculation (through dedicated returns) so I get scalding hot water within 2 seconds. The piping losses just end up reducing the heat needed by the radiators (which have thermostats), so the net energy cost is negligible.
As with many things, tradeoffs. To my thinking, which costs more? A gallon or so of water per shower, or the cost of heating a gallon or so of water plus the electric cost. If you manually switch it on just before a shower, you can minimize the energy lost in the pipes. (but of course you have to remember that).
with today's advanced technologies. for a simple house whole use, we can just buy a smart plug, hook the pump up to Alexa, Google home, etc and create/program a timing switch. some circulation pump even being sold with such wireless switch. simply activate the pump just a few minutes before using the fixture. I can do `Alexa turn on the pump for 5 minutes please`
The timer is VERY important! I installed one of these pumps without the smart-switch (or timer), the process goes on all-day and what it amounts to is, "you're heating and re-heating your piping between the point-of-use and the water heater, all day long! My gas bill went up by $50.00/month. Get the timer!
Great tip! It is surprising that some people still do not understand this concept.
I tried one of these and found one problem: Now your cold water line is filled with warm to hot water so you if you want cold water you have to waste the hot water in the cold water line. On my next one I'm going to install a third line back to the heater for recirculation so I don't have to use the CW line. I also don't think there is any great energy savings with these systems. The primary purpose of these is in the convenience of not having to wait for hot water.
Jeff, thank you for your comment. I have had several folks say their cold water was warm until the pipe emptied. I can't explain why, but on my system after the pump has been running and hot water is present I still get cold water within 1-2 seconds of turning on the cold. I have no issue with waiting for warm water to leave the cold water line. I know this does not make logical sense, but that is what is happening.
@@gfotinakes316 I thought that the point of the hot-cold line valve was to open when the temp was cold, but then it senses when the temp heats up and shuts off. If the valve is working in this way, there should not be very much hot water in the cold line at all.
😅n😊😊
The problem is that the valve shuts off and the water in the walls starts to cool and then eventually the valve opens just a little bit as the water is just slightly too cold. And then a trickle of lukewarm water goes through the system. In the end, you have a hot water pipe that is full of water that isn't quite hot enough for a shower. So no water is saved.
New construction has been using return hot piping for a decade. New homes already have the return pipe and don't have to use the cold pipe.
It shouldn’t even touch a cold water line. We have a duplex and I have the heat exchanger tank in one unit. There is a T in the hot water at the far duplex unit that has a 3/8” connection with a sensor and pump to a designated line back to the input of the heat exchanger. It’s just circulating in the hot water lines.
The downside of these recirculating pump systems is that they turn the pipes in your house into a large radiator. The hot water that cools down while it is "just sitting" in the pipes represents lost money.
So, there is a trade-off.
Other ways to "solve" the long-wait-for-hot-water problem include:
🤔Insulate the water pipes.
🤔Tankless hot water system at distant faucets.
🤔Point-of-use mini tank water heaters (again, at distant faucets).
As some would say ...... There is no free lunch.
Yes, there are a lot of solutions. I have heard the tankless systems in our area have constant problems due to mineral buildup. What is your plan?
Bill Rogers, yes to all 3;
My next door neighbour made the mistake of spending a lot of money to have a plumber do a recirculation piping in his house, only to have him come back a few months later to undo it,shut off the new on-the-wall return line.
His gas bill had more than doubled, the existing cast iron pipe in the house was not insulated, buried in concrete for 25 years since the house was built(this here in Portugal, SW Europe),was over 15 meters long one way, and the constant recirculation of hot water was murder,always heating up the walls and floors;
When he told me about it, he followed my advice, (and i showed him in my house), and installed a 75 liter electric hot water tank right inside the bathroom,hanging on the wall, a very common thing here,they are sold all over, around 150 euros($); they have a 1600 watt heating element inside,are well insulated,and they usually last over 15 years without ever touching it; (there are copper ones that are still running new after 40 and 50 years,with the occasional thermostat and resistance change,about 15 to 20 euros, but these run 300 to 350 euros).
Mine (have another one in the kitchen) is now 12 years old, still like new,never needed anything ,runs now off 6 cheap,bought used, solar panels on the roof, about 200 watts each, some lifepo4 batteries,used also,at half capacity now, and a 150 watt china inverter of 2600 watts effective ( it says the usual 5000 watts,but shuts itself off at 2600). A 25 euro automatic switch( it's a BIG unit!) reverts automatically to the public grid when there is no Sun and the inverter shuts off, inverts again when the batteries are charged; it's a small 24 volt system.
@@josepeixoto3384 I am so glad to see your reply. I probably won't do what you have done, but it sure makes good sense. Seems like some of the highly-promoted solutions don't do much more than make your wallet thinner.
Who designed your system?
it costs about 70 cents to heat a whole tank, at 15 cents a kwh, 20 gals. so only one gallon of heat gets radiated, like two pennies, which by the way also saves your pipes from bustin'. You can even put it on a timer to run hourly for 30 seconds, big spender. At some point, you have come this far buying a house, insuring it, paying 30,000 bux for school, a car for going to work, living in a safe technological society with high taxes, making a huge investment in a lifestyle of running water and keeping dry and warm, and you just want to use the faucet as intended, and save water to boot. Or you could Instead hang around the sink for hours or getting germs because you're too impatient to wait for hot water that you paid for but is now just sitting in your basement warming up the ghosts of the former owners. Rich Western Peeps like us should have three washers and dryers, and two dishwashers... unless you actually like to spend half your precious weekend time off between running the civilized world by running up and down to the laundry room stairs like a maid or restocking the dishwasher until 3 am on Sunday after a dinner party. It doesn't use more water or electricity, or cost more, because the distributed use is exactly the same, so the appliances will last three times longer.
@@mikemotorbike4283 Thanks for the lecture, uh ... I mean lesson.
There are trade-offs. In fact, you pointed out some more of them.
Maybe something that hadn't been considered before: when filling a tub, since the hot water "arrives" almost instantly, we can keep a lower water heater temperature, because the tub doesn't initially fill with unheated water from the hot "side". Spousal Appreciation Factor is high with this. I do use Home Assistant to operate a smart switch during common hours, but there's also a pushbutton that allows manual activation. Or we can ask "Alexa" to turn it on.
I appreciate the tub filling consideration, clever!
The crossover valve under the sink is a "Normally Open" valve which only closes once hot water has reached the valve. So, when the pressure drops in the cold line during cold water use, ie flushing toilet, water lawn, etc the higher water pressure in the hot water line will place demand on your water heater when using cold water. Hot water siphoning. Try watering your lawn at night and check to see if your hot water is ready at the sinks and see how warm your cold water lines are. This will answer the question of why your water heating cost has gone up. Get a system with a solenoid valve rather than a thermostatic valve. It prevents this problem.
Excellent anallysis! I am keeping a copy of your remarks for future use, thank you!
I relocated my water heater to my attached garage when I got my heat pump style water heater, that added a LOT of pipe making it take a lot longer than yours took. I installed the recirc pump and smart switch which is connected to my Home Assistant to intelligently turn on based on many different things, but, I had a pretty big issue still. Pushing the partially hot water backwards into my cold water pipe made the cold water, not cold, so we ended up running the cold water for a long time in order to get it running cold, so I used two check valves and a tee and now force the not-hot water back directly to the water heater instead. It works great!
It sounds like you solved the problem many of my commentors are having. Thank you for sharing and have a great holiday season!
@@gfotinakes316 it works extremely well, and the heat pump water heater cools and dehumidifies my garage for the same, much lower cost of heating water. I came very close to putting a small instant water heater in line so once the water gets hot it kicks back off also.
I have been using these for years saved me a ton of money easy to install three different houses
Thanks for your comment, there are a lot of naysayers.
I couldn’t watch your such an informative video without leaving a note of thanks and appreciation for your intention and the good deed. Thanks a million for being who you are.
Glad it was helpful! I am so excited that you were able to install your pump. By the way, what state are you in? I like to put a pin on my map for all of my replies. Take care!
So what you did was take a pump which circulates hot water for instant HOT WATER SHOWER !! You only bought a pump, a controller, and a valve ?? Thank you for letting us all know on TH-cam Sir. 😀😀😀😀@@gfotinakes316
This was great. A much simpler system than I realized. I'm definitely going to do this ASAP.
Good luck! You can actually do the entire job in 45-60 minutes unless you need to get different fittings.
I installed mine yesterday. Now I am going to get a smart receptacle too as a result of your video clip. Thanks.
You will only need 3-5 minutes after your voice request to get hot watter. You then can turn it off having used very little energy.
You could actually create an Alexa “Routine” and when you ask for the hot water it can turn on as it does now for you, then add a delay of maybe 5 or 10 mins, then add then add the turn off. That way it runs for the delay time, and you won’t need to tell Alexa to turn it off! Now, of course you can keep your command for turning it off sooner if you want, but this is just a way to not need to remember to do it. Great video!
Had one for 20 years. Great $$$ saving pump. Installed a timer and on/off switch. I turn the pump on and off during the hours when the pump is timed.
Good to hear. Have a great holiday season.
Installed mine about 2 years ago and love it. Our schedule is pretty flexible so we take showers a various times during the day. I set the timer to circulate the water for a couple of hours 4 times a day. It seems to work for us. Additionally, I can set the thermostat on the water to a lower temp as the water coming out of the faucet is much hotter than without the pump.
Thanks for sharing! Seems like things are working for you. I keep getting comments that the recirculating pumps are not the way to go. Mine does the job I want it to do. Have a nice holiday season.
Why couple of hours instead of couple of minutes? If the typical waste of water is let's say 5-10 gal depending on length of pipes wouldn't it logical that you only have to recirculate only up to 10 gallons of water? I don't know what's the efficiency of the pump but it shouldn't take more than 10-15min I assume... I'm not sure if I'm missing something.
@@korzenik81 u set it for a couple of hours because our schedules change daily. Running it for a few hours seems to meet all our needs. I like your idea of 5-10 mins tho. I would just have to be there to ensure my wife has her hot water, I can’t always do that unfortunately.
Water coming out of your faucet shouldn't be hotter using the pump than without using it, when the hot water reaches the faucet. It should be the same temperature.
I have one conected to a smart plug and I turn the pump on my Iphone 4 minutes before I arrive home and get into a hot shower without any waste of water.
I'm really happy with it.
Great! You also have the comfort of knowing no water is wasted.
Thanks for the nice work on the video. I chose to go a different route for several of my customers that required no pump. It does require open rafters in the basement and a knowledge of plumbing. First, a T placed in the hot line under the bath at the furthest from the hot water tank. Then a line ran back to the tank. Pex line would be a good choice for it's ease of handling if you're not comfortable with copper. Lastly, a T installed at the drain fitting. A check valve needs to be installed at that junction which only allows the water to flow back into the tank. Gravity does the rest. My first installation of this was about 20 years ago and have had great results and no complaints.
Thank you for sharing this option. It sounds very clever. I am sorry more people will not see your comment. Have a wonderful holiday season.
i have a similar system , i have a return line from the farthest sink back to the water heater with a recirculating pump. a check valve to stop the cold water from feeding into the hot line and i connected a aquastat on the return line which is connected to the outlet that the pump is plugged into. i have the aquastat set at about 105 and it turns on at around 105 and shuts off when off when hot water reaches the water heater. I also connected a regular light switch to control the power so i turn it on in the morning and shut it at night.
It's a good system, I had it in my last house, pex isn't good though because the recirc line needs to be pitched as it goes back to the water heater. Copper is easier
I dont understand how the original commenter didnt use a pump. Youd have to in order to get the hw back to the tank.. or youre using the water pressure to get it back which either way is only moving when there’s a valve opened in the system letting water out.. it wont circulate on its own..
@@Z-Ack It will circular on its own unless your tank is on the same floor level as the rest of the house. It's a combination of gravity and confection. Hot water rises as normal and as it cools, it will return back to the bottom of the tank. The return line is attached in a T to the drain line, isolating it from the tank itself. That prevents it from getting heated until it has returned to the tank. Remember that a check valve near the T will prevent water running up the return line when a faucet is opened. It may not perform as well as a pumped system, but it does work. I have customers thank me for it. You can always give it a try. If it's not to your liking, just replace the check valve with a pump. Most of the work involved is in the plumbing anyway.
I have a 2 story house, so I just ran a return line from the highest point on the hot water supply in the farthest bathroom down to a T in the outlet for the drain valve on the water heater. I added a ball valve to be able to control the circulation.
What this accomplished was that the heated water rises out of the water heater and as it rises, it loses heat. By the time it gets all the way up to the farthest point in the house, it hits the return line and the now cooler and denser water is pulled down by convection.
So I don’t need a pump. Convection takes care of it. When I turn the hot water on, I have 1-2 seconds before the water is hot.
You are very clever, thank you for sharing this idea for those with 2 story houses.
@@gfotinakes316 Thanks, but it wasn't my idea. My brother owns a plumbing shop, he gets all the credit. I just put it together.
About 12 years ago I added about a 1000sq ft two story addition to my home. The second story was a new master bedroom with a jacuzzi so we added a hot water circulation pump, had to replace the pump once $250.00. Recently, now that I live alone, my plumber friend suggested I put an ON DEMAND system in which has a circulation pump as part of the system. WHAT a great idea works great and has saved my many $$$$ over the years.
Great! Thank you for sharing and have a nice holiday.
does the job for me one person household ?
I use a convection loop and it is fantastic. Faster than an instant on demand heater, no pump, no valves or wasted water. I'ts so quick that by the time you get a shot of soap its already HOT. I'm in a bungalow and luckily have a main feeder that has drops to water outlets instead of a manifold design. I created a "loop" that goes from the end of my main feeder, back a tee that is installed where the HWT drain valve is located. The check valve is removed from the HWT outlet. All pipe is fully insulated except the last 10' of the loop where it tees into the HWT drain valve/tee connection. I did this 10 years ago and couldn't be more pleased!
I will keep your input on this. Maybe a plumber can do it for me.
You did a nice job. Saw This old house install one years and years ago. This is really just to maybe improve quality of life and save time. Here's why. If you have a water bill you pay $6-$12 per 1000 gallons. Add up the cost of a $300 pump and going the frugal way a $5 timer. Now go back to your annual water that goes down to the drain and do a payback analysis. 1600 gallons for a family of 5. So annually, your water bill is about $16 using $10/1000 gallons of water. Now divide the $305 up front cost by the $16/year saved and it takes 19 years to recoup your up front cost. So you don't save any money unless you live in the house for more than 19 years. A thought on wasting water. If the water goes back to a sewage plant is it really wasted? It ends up back in the ground or re-used as grey water for non-potable use. If you have a well, you only pay for the cost of the well pump 3/4-1 HP and all that water ends up in the septic field back into the earth and waters your lawn and evaporates back to the clouds and comes down as rain at some point. So is there really a point to this other than comfort and speed? If you plan properly are you wasting 40 seconds? Turn the water on and go make the bed and put out your clothes, etc.
What a great analysis, you must be a science teacher. Here are two more ways to look at the issue.
I live in Southern California where we have periodic droughts. At times recently our water has been limited to the point that we had to gather gray water to water plants and limit toilet flushes to several a day. Every gallon of water was precious.
I used to be under the impression that all water is moving through the water cycle and never lost so why should we conserve? Here is an area I would like you to explore, water lost due to fracking for oil. Once this fresh water is filled with chemicals and pumped deep into the earth, it has left our water cycle forever. Here is something that may surprise you:
Fracking consumes a massive amount of water. In the United States, the average can run between 1.5 million and 9.7 million gallons of water to frack a single well, according to the United States Geological Survey (USGS).Apr 19, 2019
The average fracking job uses roughly 4 million gallons of water per well - or about as much water as New York City uses every six minutes and about 1.3 percent of the water used by the country's car washes every day.
You hear little about this in the media. Take care
@@gfotinakes316 Great info. Never had the challenges Californians or drought areas have. Thank you
Another thing you should add your hot water system is insulation on h/w supply lines and independent recirculating lines as much as possible . In new construction that should be done immediately after the plumbing pressure test is completed. Conserving heat is just as important. The recirculation pipe can be much smaller pipe. That will save running cold water to cool it down when you want cold water.
Great ideas! My attic pipes are all insulated, I believe that is due to the California code regulations.
Well, now, really, when would you want cold water?
@@DennisMathias For the cold water line. This system recirculates hot water back to the water tank via the cold water line.
Thanks George. You were so thorough and your example inspired me to add recirculation to our home!
Thnak you! Make sure you look at the description comment I just added below my video.
googd work...one of those pumps I ve been using 15 years on and off..still pumping
The pumps sure look like they are made to last. Have a nice holiday season.
We have used this for years and it makes our hot water get hot fast and it doesn’t make our cold water warm. It doesn’t affect our cold water at all. It is well worth the cost and saves us lots of money.
That seems to be my experience also.
We’ve had one for quite a few years. One thing to remember is the gas bill goes up as does the electric bill also when in use and it’s doing its job.. It is great, especially for in the wintertime.
I’ve learnt to brush my teeth first, then water is instantly hot without it in the summertime even more so.
Great point! Thanks James. Are you running it on a timer with insulated pipes? You might want to try the smart plug that I show in the video. Those gas and electric bills don't need to go up.
Any circulating hot water system is a luxury..... not a savings....and starting and stopping these motors is hard on them....best to let it run 24/7. Water leaves the hot tank and returns colder than when it left....that taxes your water heater and your gas bill. My kitchen sink is the furthest fixture from my water heater (about 60 ft.) I ran a small 1/2" dedicated, insulated, one-way hot water supply line from the water heater to the kitchen sink. Takes about 20 seconds and 2 quarts of water to arrive and it stays hot after 20 minutes (insulation). My shower is very close to the W.H. but the bath sink is about 25 ft. away....I'm a professional plumber and ran a 1/4" line to one of my double sinks in the master bathroom. It takes about 4 seconds for it to arrive (HOT) and less than one cup. Best thing ever for those cold winter mornings. I tee'd into that 1/4" line for my wife's sink (about 20 feet further) and she loves it.
I've noticed in my 40 years of plumbing that circulating pumps sometimes cause pin holes in copper pipe. No pumps for me. Hot water systems should be allowed to be under sized if your government wants to save water.
Lots of interesting ideas. I am going to keep a copy of your comment for future investigation in my location. Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Be prepared for a dramatic increase in your natural gas bill. You will want to set the timer for ONLY the times you really need the instant hot water. That was our experience after installing this unit. Every few years, be prepared to replace the "balance" tube, also. Currently they sell for about $50.00.
I did not see any change in my gas bill because of short on-demand usage of the unit. You are correct on the short lifespan of the temperature valve. Thanks for your input.
Proper method is to run a separate turn line. You also want to insulate the hot line else you are heating walls and crawspaces. Better versions have auto detect timers that learn when you demand hot and turn it on during those times.
That is the best method, but I was quoted $2000 for a job like that. Thank you for your thoughts.
that would be greati f it didn't cost thousands of bucks, entail hiring a plumbing company and knocking holes in walls and then repairing them. great for new home builds. i installed this in my 6000ft elevation cabin in California and also installed it in my new mexico home....they work fantasticly....for below freezing nites....i have the timer set to on/off every 15 minutes....also, as my hot water heater is electric....and i am the only person here, i shut it down and only turn it on for taking a shower or doing specific wash loads that need hot water...
I've had a gronfos pump feeding my back house, allowing me to cancel a hot water heater for 20 years.
We used a completely separate return line, plumbed to the bottom port of the front house water heater, with a wired circuit and a timer, incase someone forgets to turn it off.
Smart plugs didn't exist back then.
A great investment, especially when remodeling.
I've had the same pump for atleast 20 years.
Wow! Clever design and a great advertisement for Grunfos! Have a nice holiday season.
In order for these to work properly you need a recirculating system. That’s where the hot water line comes out of the top of the water heater, circulates around to all of the normal hot water lines throughout the house and then continues into the bottom for the water heater. If the hot water heater is located in the basement the pump should be located in the floor joists directly above the hot water heater to eliminate as much head pressure as possible. The pump should also be on a timer to circulate the hot water every ten of twenty minuets as needed. I installed one in our home and hot water is available to any room, even the third floor, in less than 15 seconds. Forcing the hot water into the cold water line is a waste of energy, time and hot water.
It seems like you know the subject well. I think my system is more for an instant (3-minute) hot water delivery with no wasted water. I realize now that a video like mine is going to very wet locations, dry locations, cold locations, and hot locations, with each of these having unique hot water delivery needs. Have a great holiday season.
I think your installtion idea is best. Everything is in one place and it simplifies installation and maintenance.
Great explanation!
I have the Watts unit with the built in timer.
Like some people, I thought warm water in my cold side would be an issue. It is not, I don't even notice it anymore. If I need cold water for drinking, I go to my refrigerator and/or add ice.
Your point about wasted time is a good point, but you actually waste more time than what you calculated. When running through the shower head, the flow is lower and your actual time to get warm water is even longer.😊
Thanks for your video!
You are right, there is a flow restrictor on the shower head. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I sure get a lot of the same complaints in the comments, usually from people that have not watched the entire video.
My house was built in 2004 with a dedicated hot water insulated loop and a Grundfos circulation pump. The pump has lasted just about 20 years of running constantly and the system works great. I even tested my plumbing system by turning off the circulation pump and see if there was an increase in energy savings. I found none and having hot water in about five seconds is wonderful and saves water. This dedicated system is required in new construction in many areas out west
Thank you for your reply, most of the comments I get are very critical of the idea of having a re-circulating system.
I built a new house about 14 years ago and insisted upon a water recirculation system for rapid hot water. I never lived in a home with this feature before, but knew about it. When I moved into my completed new home, I set the recirculation pump, a Grundfos, to operate 24/7, not knowing any better. Within three months the pump burned out and had to be replaced. A hefty bill for the plumber and replacement pump led me to call Grundfos. A representative explained to me that their pumps are not designed to be always on, which is why they have a built-in timer with several on and several off times to set. For the replacement pump, I set it to circulate water just prior to wake up, for one hour, then in the evening for several hours. That's it. A total of 4 hours per 24. The pump has given me 13 3/4 years of trouble-free use. One caveat: it's a mechanical timer so you have to adjust the timing wheel when Standard Time and when Daylight Savings Time begin. If I ever need to replace it (hopefully never), I will buy one without a timer and use a smarthome system like the one in this video.
By the way, my installation has a hot water return line, instead of the valve demonstrated in this video. Overall I am very happy with this system.
Thank you for the Grunfos information, that is important to know. I would like to add a dedicated line also but right now It is too much of an expense. Take care.
2 largest factors to consider: #1 Will save water #2 Will waste energy. May be regional but around here water is much cheaper then what it takes to heat it. In your setup you are basically cooling water every time that pump runs, and dumping cold water into your tank that you have to heat up.
Simple and excellent analysis. My logic has been that it saves me water in an arid environment and using voice on-demand control eliminates almost all wasted cost.
By the way, I watched your End of Camino video. Some beautiful thoughts! I would like to walk part of the Camino someday. We have a Camino now in Sonoma California where our daughter lives, this may be a more economical way for me to attempt this. Thank you, David.
It takes about 6-months to get hot water up to the master bathroom in my house. I installed one of those recirculating pumps under the sink in that bathroom. It connects the hot water line to a valve and motor that pushes the cold water (that is now in the hot water line) backwards down into the cold water supply pipe. That causes a recirculation of the water. It comes with a timer that you can have the pump automatically turn on/off at various times of the day. Instead of using that, I plugged it into an outlet under the sink, and ran that to a switch above the sink. I put a push button timing switch. I wish that switch just had 1 timer button but it has several (5 min, 10 min, 15, min, up to 30 min). Before showering I just have to press the 5 or 10 min button as I'm getting ready for the shower. The only problem with this setup is the cold water supply line will have warm water in it due to the recirculation. But that clears out soon. The pump was expensive, about $400. But well worth it.
I agree with you. You did a nice job on your system. I don't know why, but my cold water never comes out warm.
Excellent video! Wasting so much water is sinful! I'm going to install one of these asap. Thanks again!
I hope it goes well for you. The process is fairly simple.
I used one of these pumps for a couple of years, and it was nice to have hot water instantly available in my master bath which was far from the water heater. However, the pipe on which the pump was mounted failed where it was brazed to the tank, and water spewed all over my attic (where water heater was installed). I think the vibration of the pump contributed to that failure. I did not reinstall it on the new water heater. Just a note of warning about something to watch for when using this pump.
Thank you for your comment of warning. Have a nice holiday season.
Probably a shitty sweat from the factory shit happens
@@poopywelderI wouldn’t assume it’s a bad assembly at the factory. To be safe, I would strongly suggest that the pump is mounted to a wall or rafter or floor joist and use flexible pipe connections from the pump to the water heater. The vibration of the pump is no joke after months and years of intermittent use. I’m a retired contractor, building inspector and chief building official.
I got into the habit of using a catch bucket for the pre hot water to flush my toilet. Zero wasted water and nothing to install. Great video!
That is a great idea. We were doing something like that in our recent drought here in Southern California.
Wasted gas and waiting for cold.
I recently went to my neighbor's faucet to fill buckets for my flushing, during a water heater replacement. I got an education on my water usage. Only 20' or so from heater to shower for me, so no real need for this.
#1 it takes electrical energy to recirclate that water #2 there is energy loss in the piping keeping the hot water at temperature
I have an on demand H2O heater.. I press a bluetooth enabled button by each bathroom, and wait 2 minutes, while the pump is recirculating the hot water.. no energy loss running the pump just to keep hot water availble, no thermal losses on keeping a water tank full at temperature, only issue is the wait time, but I’m used to it already, and its required for water and energy conservation. My system was installed with my new house plumbing, so theres a 3rd line that takes the recirc water back to the Rinnai on demand water heaters, it shuts off the recirculation pump when the incomming water is near the temperature of the outgoing hot water 👍
It sounds like you have a great system. In my area the "on demand units get clogged with sediment because our water is so "hard". I do want to remind you that in my system, since it is voice controlled and only runs about 5 minutes a day, the energy loss is insignificant. I hope you have a great holiday season.
@@gfotinakes316 I have a dual whole house water filtration system, 25 micron for Dirt (2 in parallel for high flow), then dual 5 micron for Odor & Taste, plus it's municipal water from a lake, so no issues with sediment, filters are for Rust when the distribution system is disturbed via flushing & cleaning
Wow! What a system.@@mwolrich
great that you have this concern about water consumption. I run into this all the time from clients worried about how much they are wasting at the shower, yet they request irrigation and water unnecessarily ,even shrubs that are well established. they also request a garburator that uses a ton too. Not to mention they love pressure washing drives and everything. etc. etc. A real shame.
I think we all have our own "blind spots" when it comes to consumption and waste of money, resources, time, and our lives. All we can do is try to be resourceful in all the small ways that will only count when multiplied by many.
Some folks put value in some things while others do not. Garbage disposals are a perfect example of how some don't see the benefits of them so they put up with the stench and fly's in their kitchen trash and then trash barrels.
To make faster hot water, you need to run a return line back to the water heater. Now you have freefllowing hot water returning to the heater. Understand this, it has to start its return from the farthest hot water outlet. The water in your pipe coming into your home has more than enough pressure to push the hot out through your piping system. You do need to return the water line back to your tank to its bottom...so you can pipe in a tee at the drain position. You need to add a check valve also which will help to prevent back flow on the return line. This is an easy install in a single level home. Multi level homes means a bit more installation issues, which may mean a plumber needs to complete this. Pumps can make a system more efficient, but if you dont have a free flow of water, how does the pump push back the cold water in the pipe to make room for the hot? If you have 20,30 or more feet of pipe, sitting, you still have to remove the cold water to get to the hot. The cold water acts as a plug, so it has to be removed to move the hot to the outlet. So, is the pump really doing its job? And if you don't put some sort of reverse aquastat for the pump, it will continue to run till it burns out the sealed pump bearing. With a return, now you have hot water in two or three seconds. So you now have an on demand hot water system, something they should be installing in all new construction. To be most effective you have to have a closed loop. You cant have branches like a tree or it will not work effectively. Now it becomes complicated.
I really don't know much about the piping in houses. I do know that my system brings me hot water to my shower in the time it takes to shave and then it is turned off. It only runs 5-10 minutes a day. I know the pipe system you speak of works very well, but I was getting quotes of $2000 to do that piping. Good luck with whatever you try. Have a nice holiday season.
This system does have free flow, through a return line that is already built into your plumbing - the cold water side of your pipes, which connects back to the cold water input of the heater. Pump is needed since the water pressure in your pipes won't cause water movement until there is a pressure differential. There will be some movement from convection if your water heater is at a low point in your house, but your heater will waste a lot of energy constantly re-heating this recirculating water that is losing energy through the pipe path.
Regarding “the cold water has to be removed”: the recirculation pump increases the pressure in the pipes it sends water through, above the ordinary water pressure in the cold supply pipes. So it is capable of pushing the cold water out of the way ;)
@@stevebabiak6997 ...out of the way to where...if you are not opening up a faucet. It has to be a closed loop system so as to create movement without opening a faucet. The furthest or end of the line will stay cold till you remove the cold.
@@cmichaelanthonyimages2197 - the cold water gets pushed back through the water supply pipes. Keep in mind that cold water is an input to the water heater.
I installed one of these pumps and it works great. I also took the time to install a pressure ballast tank to keep the water pressure from building up while static. The hot water heater will cause the overall water pressure to rise if no one is using any water.
Interesting idea, thanks!
Mine has been going for eight years and I love it.
Great!
Outstanding product, saves thousands compared to other options and love the amount of water not lost waiting 2 to 3 min to get even warm.
I agree!
great tips! also, you can add a ac/heater alexa plug which comes with a temperature probe, you can then install said probe on the hot water pipes so that the hot water pump activates once the water pipe temp drops to a certain temp. this way there is always ready for the sink and not having to be verbally commanded every time
That is an interesting use of technology, but I think I would then be radiating the hot water heat into my attic in the winter and wasting my gas heating the attic. It is amazing to think all of the things you can operate with Alexa. Have a nice Christmas.
Can you give me more details about how and where the temperature probe would be located and installed. If the smart plug is next to the water heater and pump, how is the sensor going to know to turn off the pump once hot water has made the loop. Turning off the pump is a concern for me. We shower all times of the day so a timer doesn't accomplish our needs. Thanks.
I have the Watts system . Works great. This is a very quiet and low vibration pump. You would never know it's running by feel or sound. The onboard mechanical timer has been bypassed in favor of a WiFi controlled outlet, much like George shows in this video. There is a separate return line with a check valve to keep the hot water out of the cold. I used a brass check valve bought separately, the plastic bypass valve included just did not seem durable for the long haul, plus setting it up as a check valve only wasn't feasible. It's been running now flawlessly for 5 years. I may pay a little more to heat & circulate extra water in the lines, but not having to wait 3 minutes for hot water at the kitchen sink is worth it. Who ever plumbed this home - concrete slab with copper beneath - ran the hot water line all the way to the master bath then back to the kitchen, so that's a lot of cold water to displace and pipe to heat before HW is delivered to the kitchen. After running the short - by comparison - return line from kitchen to garage, the circulation loop was complete.
Thank you for this response. I am keeping your comments for a possible future effort myself.
I have already planned ahead for the main house, I have several hot and cold water manifolds throughout my house where the hot water manifolds have a return line going back to the water heater. All that remains is to add the insulation on certain lines and a housing to hold the main distribution manifolds, return manifold, and circulating pump. Housing must be insulated as well since it is co located with the solar water heater on an equipment deck on the exterior of the house. Yes here on the island in Crete most all apartments and private residences are equipped with solar water heaters. We installed the triple energy version which can heat water via solar, electric, or through the boiler/boiler fireplace closed loop. Very efficient and if you have installed a solar electric system pump costs zero to power.
Wow! that sounds like a great housing plan. So you are on the island of Crete? I have been told that my name comes from Crete. Are there any "Fotinakes" that you know of?
@@gfotinakes316 yup on the Island! Unfortunately I do not know of anyone with that last name. Do you have any idea what part of Crete that your fathers relative might be in? The interesting thing I found out many years ago the "akis" or "akes" were given to the Greeks by the Turks during the occupation of Greece especially Crete. It was added to the last name however it is a diminutive or as I would consider an insult since it means "your under me or below me" on the social ladder. However only the families that they liked and had no problems with received this "badge of honor". Some names are regional to certain parts of the island.
Congrats on 5k subscribers!
Thank you!!
The Watts recirc unit comes with a valve that you can install under a bathroom sink farthest from the hot water tank. When the hot water from the pump hits it, the valve closes, keeping the cold water cold. We have our timer turning on the pump every 15 minutes in the morning, then every 30 minutes during the day as we're usually both home. Then once every hour after 5pm and off after 10pm. The hot water comes out warm right away and we're not wasting any water. There is also a selector for constant on or off, too, so you can turn it off while you're away on vacation without losing your settings or TofDay. Best addition to our new HW heater and I wish I had installed one years ago!
I agree!
I have one and it works great!
Main thing is to place the opposite piece in the optimal location.
5 minute install
Thank you for your comment.
Excellent overview and I appreciate your time 👍
Glad it was helpful! Thank you for your comment. I hope you consider using a recirc. pump
Good info, my bathrooms take close to 2 minutes running for the hot water to get hot because it's a long house and the heater is at the far end and bathrooms are almost at the other end.
Thank you for your reply, I hope you can work out a solution.
Thought of installing a similar system but changed my mind. This setup in essence get the hot water into your cold water (potable side) and recirculate back into the water heater within a closed end loop. Imagine a homeowner who rarely flushes the hot water tank and drinks that water. Unless you regimentally flush and clean your hot water tank you will be drinking that water as well. The other way which is more expensive is to run a dedicated pipe from the furtherest faucet (hot water) back into the water heater drain. More expensive because of extra plumbing involved, but then you isolate the hot and cold water without ever cross contamination.
I am just curious, why do you consider the closed loop water not safe to drink?
@@gfotinakes316 You explained it pretty good in the video as to how hot water got recycled via the cold water line back into the water heater. That is a closed end loop within your hot/cold lines. The fact that hot water gets into your cold water line would in essence be part of your potable water. Perhaps you reckon drinking water from the water heater is safe, but do a Google search and you'll see the cons of consuming water from the heater tank. I was thinking of installing such a system, but commonsense raised a red flag. The other way is to run a dedicated hot water line from the furtherest point back to the water heater drain without ever crossing over to the cold water lines. But than depending on how big the house is, it gets expensive running a dedicated plumbing line.
I have used the Watts brand in my home for 14 years (same unit). it mostly runs constantly, when I remember, I set the timer in the summer. The added benefit for me has been that living in a pier and beam home with all my plumbing in the crawlspace, in sub-freezing temperatures my pipes have never frozen, even though they are all unwrapped, no insulation. detached
Well that is a plus! Why not put that foam tubing around you pipes. I don't think that is too expensive?
This is my situation and the primary reason i got one of these. Tired of frozen pipes in kitchen thru a crawlspace. I need a new water heater first as my plumbing is stuck.
As noted by others a true hot water system re-circulation system would have its own dedicated return that feeds into the water heater drain at the bottom of the heater. This keeps the hot water line water from ever feeding into the cold water lines as it circulates. This is better but more expensive way to circulate your hot water as it is not fighting the pressure in the cold water pipes as it makes a direct loop from and to the water heater. With the use of Plex plastic water lines it is not nearly as hard as it used to be to run a dedicated line back to the water heater.
You can control the pump with a timer, wireless doorbells, or proximity switches or other methods when ever hot water is needed.
The things I do not like about your setup is it is mixing the hot and cold water lines. I do not think it is wise to be drinking water that came through your water heater. The cold water in your hot water pipes was hot at one time before it cooled. Your method flushes that cooled water back into the cold water pipes (against pressure) and not directly back to the heater (with no pressure). If someone opens a cold water faucet while your pump is circulating they could easily get water that used to be heated. I would worry that the water when hot may have leached things out of the hot water pipes before it cooled. Since they sell these kits the water may be safe to drink but I still think it is better to keep hot and cold water separate.
You make some good points.
Wasn’t the plastic valve you referenced part of your recirculating loop? In this case your hot and cold are separated
@@joecliffordson The plastic valve open and closes depending on water temperature. When the circulating pump starts the valve is open and cold water in the hot water line is pushed back into the cold water line. Once hot water reaches the plastic valve then it closes and stops water from entering the cold water line. The cold water that came from the hot water line is now setting in the cold water line. If you turn on the cold water at a faucet you might very well get the old hot water to drink. A true circulating system would keep the hot and cold water lines separate.
I've never wasted water waiting for the temp to come up. Since the 70s, living in California, my parents had me save the water in buckets to water the plants and fill the dog bowl.
We did that during the drought in our house in Southern California. You get a gold star for your efforts!
The intended purpose of these recirculating pumps is to essentially maintain on-damand hot water with minimal-to-no wait time. While using a timer is better and more practical than relying on having conversations with Alexa, you'll really benefit most from using an Aquastat with the recirc pump. An Aquastat acts as a thermometer for the water in your pipes. Utilizing this combo ensures that the water in your pipes MAINTAINS the temperature you set on the Aquastat. Keeping that water in your pipes at a constant warm temperature guarantees you'll have almost instant hot water at your water fixtures when you go to use them. Wire the Aquastat into a timer so it doesn't run at night when you're sleeping and when you'll be at work. Forget about using the words "recirculating pump" and "cost savings" in the same sentence. As others pointed-out, using a recirculating pump for hot water is all about convenience. I've been using a recirc pump/Aquastat combo for over 20 years now. And I agree with those who suggested adding a third pipe, but that's unfortunately not practical in most finished homes, and a very expensive proposition if you decide to bust-out walls and ceilings to run that extra pipe.
very good analysis, thanks for your comment!
I installed a circulating system in my house. It used a special supply line with a check valve to return the water. It worked pretty well. But then I was told by a builder and then latter a plumber who I asked, that if you have copper pipes the minerals in the water can wear through pipes. The pipe fittings are particularly vulnerable. So by keeping the water constantly in motion your pipes can get holes worn in them. The alexa switch is a great idea limiting the wear on pipes.
Thank you for the information, that is good to know.
On a different subject, my house was built in 1963 and most of our tract of houses had to re-pipe. While walking around people would feel warmth in the slab, that meant you had a hot water leak under the slab. I was told by a plumber that it was caused in our area by electrolysis when the copper pipes were connected to the water heater with a galvanized steel union. These two metals caused the entire system to become an electric battery eating away the pipes over time, go figure!
My monthly water rate is $28.82/mo base rate just to be connected to the municipal water system. Add to that $2.37 for up to 10,000 gallons per month. The next 10,000 gallons is $4.68. Beyond 20,000 gallons is $5.44. Since not all of that water is hot water, in my situation, the payback period for a $200 pump plus the small operational costs would exceed the life of the pump. I would agree however, that it would save time in getting hot water to the point of use. I would use that time to get ready for my shower.
Thank you for your comment.
This is a more difficult situation than many claim. While these systems save on wasted water which is very important, they waste energy which is a big problem. The pump keeps hot water along the line to the farthest sink/shower in the home. That hot water begins cooling as soon as it fills the pipe. Therefore we have hot water pumped into the feed line for quick hot water at the valve and less water waste, but constant heating and reheating of that line to be ready for use. Wasting electricity. Designers need to find better, more local to the user solutions that save water and energy...
Great point! You may note that my system is voice activated and only runs for about 5 minutes prior to any shower.
I installed a gravity system for hot water recirculation and it works great! Master bathroom is 70ft east of water heater and water is available quickly. Separate recirculation pipe from far end so hot water is always hot, cold water is always cold. Works using gravity so no pump to worry about.
That is awesome! I am getting quite an education from commentors. Have a nice holiday season.
I first discovered hot water recirculating pump 25 years ago when I was remodeling my kitchen when I spotted one on the shelf near the kitchen sink, I was looking at. It plugged into a standard wall socket and mounted on the wall next to the sink plumbing connections. The unit was connected to the hot and cold-water supply at the faucet furthest from the hot water tank and then the faucet was connected to the unit. The unit sensed the temperature of the hot water coming in and if it was below a certain temperature, it would turn on and pump water from the hot inlet to the cold inlet (back to the tank) until the temperature had risen to a set point and then turn off until the water cooled off and then it would repeat again. This worked great as the hot water had to travel the length so when you turned on a faucet or shower it only took a few seconds for hot water to be available. A few years later when I had a new home built I asked the builder to install the same unit however he put one in from the same manufacturer but a different model. This unit sits at the water heater like yours but gets it input from a separate line which is connected to the fixture which is furthest from the hot water tank. It works the same although the sensing unit is an integral part of the pump so the water temperature being sensed is at the water heater which results in even hotter water being available at the fixtures. The pump I have now has no mechanical moving parts, the motor outputs a moving magnetic field (think like a maglev train) and the impeller is free floating and rotates in relationship to the magnetic field. The impeller requires no lubrication as the water is sufficient. My present unit has been installed and operating for over 15 years now. I did, however, have to replace the unit the builder installed a little over a year after it was installed. When I was replacing it I was reading the installation instructions and discovered that everything the manufacturer said not to do the builder had done it that way. I redid the installation to be in accordance with the instructions and have had no problems since. Additionally there is a timmer on the pump so you can set the time you want it to operate i.e. 2300 - 0500 when you are normally asleep. The timer has switches which allow 30 minute periods of on or off as desired.
That is an amazing setup you have. I am learning so much from comments like yours. I wish the general public could more easily find out about these systems. One commenter from the UK said all new builds require recycling setups. Have a great holiday.
You explained it very well. It seems like you saved about half the amount of time and water (since it took almost 20 seconds the second time). You would need to put that into your calculations. Additionally, how long will it take to recoup your investment, not to mention that the water wasted does not cost $.18 per day. It's clearly a win for water, but a fail (in my view) for wasted electricity, and cash. Thanks for your efforts
Thank you for your comment. Remember the pump costs 18 cents a day to run but I only run it about 3 minutes. The cost of the pump would take years to recover so it turns into mostly a convenience item.
The more efficient design, that I've worked with in commercial buildings, is to run a dictated insulated return line from the far end of the hot water supply line back to the recirculation pump. This avoids filling the cold water line with heated water.
Thank you for your input, several contractors have mentioned this method.
With my setup, we also have smart switches for the bathroom lights. When a bathroom light is switched on, that signals the smartplug to turn on the pump. By the time a person finishes up their bathroom activity, hot water is at the faucet. when the bathroom light is switched off so too is the pump. I also have a routine program that runs it daily in the morning right before people wake up. This makes sure that water doesn't sit in the recirc pipe for long. I did run a return line all the way back to the water heater through a check valve. this sends that water directly to the water heater so that the cold water supply doesn't get any warm water in it.
Your system sounds like the best system commentors have described. Was the return a pex pipe? How much did that piping cost? In what part of the world are you living? (Sorry for all the questions, I just wanted to get a cost number to compare with if I get some quotes.
@@gfotinakes316 I live in the US in the northern part. I work in the construction trades so insulated copper tubing is easy to get but not cheap. While I was tying in the half inch return line I put a 3/4 inch check valve in the cold water supply to the water heater.
I bought the Grundfos Timer model three years ago.. also got two extra exchanger valves for my weird house.. their all still in the boxes.
Where do you live, do you need some help? or Would you like to sell your set up, my son's house could use some help.
I agree with your set up. I swear I have mine set up except on my switch to turn the pump on. It’s on a timer for 15 minutes and I could turn it on and use the hot water and then turn it off also but the 15 minute timer works great, thanks
Sounds great, I am glad it is working for you. Have a great holiday season.
When you consider the cost of the pump, the electricity to run it, then the loss of energy keeping those lines hot, you really don't save any money, but usually anything faster, more convenient does cost more.
This sure would be a problem, but this is not how the system works. The kit includes two hoses, a valve, a pump, and a timer. Each home has a choice of when and how long the pump operates. Most folks will have it on in the morning for a couple of hours during bathing times and then it shuts off. As I demonstrated in my video, my system is voice controlled and is only turned on for about 3 minutes before shower times and then is immediately turned off. The short duration of use in both of these situations makes energy loss no longer an issue.
The cost of the pump on the other hand makes this a luxury purchase if you are not living in an arid part of the country as I am where water is being periodically rationed.
Thank you for your thoughts, as you might see from cmments on this video, there are many and varied opinions on this subject.
This sure would be a problem, but this is not how the system works. The kit includes two hoses, a valve, a pump, and a timer. Each home has a choice of when and how long the pump operates. Most folks will have it on in the morning for a couple of hours during bathing times and then it shuts off. As I demonstrated in my video, my system is voice controlled and is only turned on for about 3 minutes before shower times and then is immediately turned off. The short duration of use in both of these situations makes energy loss no longer an issue.
I live in an arid part of the country and we have had to ration water in the last two droughts so it is more than a time saving luxury.
Thank you for your thoughts and have a great Christmas.
I only shower 2-4x/mo. I am in a infrared sauna 3-4x/wk., sweat from inside out, cloth dry. I also don't get my hands too dirty and use a soap and water selectively as needed to clean, sanitize, disinfect etc.. are levels of cleanliness which most people don't know the difference v people showering unnecessarily for long periods of time or just rinsing off. I use water re circulation to prevent the pipes from freezing, use smart plugs etc.. so, technology can be used in many ways, not just as some user or mfg. foresees use. I can also send hot water to de-ice surfaces in winter., and so much more. Great video, thank you !
That is an interesting cleaning system you have. I imagine your sauna works to clean you much better than my showers. Here in California we must conserve water so our shower water is off during soaping and only used for a quick rinse. Our biggest use of water seems to be trying to have lush green plants it what should be a desert. It is a luxury that may be slipping away soon.
@George Fotinakes seriously, why don't you leave California?? I just can't imagine living in a state that requires you to turn your water off during the soaping process! Lol!
I put mine on a wifi outlet and program 4 separate instances to circulate hot water. The warm water in the cold line is really minimal as the bypass closes after it hits 98 degrees. It s clever system.
I agree! Thank you for your comment.
We recently built a house with a loop for the hot water line. Very short branches at each fixture minimizes the wait for the hot water. The pump has three settings, full on which runs 24/7, hot sensing which moves water once it senses the water in the loop has cooled down and automatic mode which starts with the hot sensing mode until it “learns” when we use hot water and continually learns our water use habits for the previous 14 days and applies that on/off “knowledge” to the current use. This memory is constantly over written alas our habits change.
Wow! It sounds amazing
@@gfotinakes316 it works really well. The house is a two family unit so we actually have two of these hot water loops on separate pumps. They both work off one water heater and return into the bottom drain through independent check valves.
So helpful! Even this 80 year old woman could understand!
That makes this 73 year old boomer feel valued. Have a nice holiday!
I have three commercial B&G circulation pumps at work. These are fed by large commercial 100 gallon Rheem propane hot water tanks in three different locations. One feeds 6 single story connected apartments, the closest one being 20 ft away and the farthest one is around 120ft away. I have been maintaining these pumps for 28 years. These types of pumps require more maintenance than the residential ones like you have. These need to be oiled and occasionally they need to be rebuilt. These have several benefits, and as you mentioned it saves on propane, it also allows even the apartment that is 120 ft away to have near instant hot water. It also can nearly double the capacity of your water tank depending on the piping size. I have always wondered how these work in a residential situation. In my situation, there is a loop that brings the water back to the tank, how does a residential system work if it doesn't have that loop?
The hot water is pushed back through the cold water line. Many people have commented that this is not a good idea. All I know is that it works for me and it was simple to install. Thanks for your comment.
I had one put in my house when it was built in 1997. They say it will save a family of 4 about 13,000 gallons of water a year. If you have a heat pump or tankless water heater you must either connect the pump to a manual switch or a switch that will recognize when the water is turned on. They also make optical switches so when you approach a fixture the pump turns on.
Thank you for the added information. Have a great Christmas!
Time is the annoying thing for us. Water prices in our area are $8.75 per 1000 gallons, so cost isn't a factor. Probably alot different in areas prone to droughts though. One benefit of having this system is running it during the winter would help prevent your pipes from freezing since your water would be constantly moving. This alone is enough reason for me as repair costs for burst pipes and water damage can cost thousands of dollars. I like your info and numbers man. Good job.
Thanks for the positive comment. Sounds cold where you live, stay warm!
There’s one other problem with recirculating hot water systems. It damages.wears out your pipes prematurely.
In my HOA, we have 225 condos that all were installed with how water recirc systems. They do work well, especially when you have four units all being serviced by one large hot water tank like we have. Unfortunately we discovered after about 10 years of running these systems we were having a lot of our units fail with major flooding. After looking deeper into it, we discovered that continuously recirculating hot water at higher pressure (that valve is a high pressure bypass valve, and the pump causes a pressure spike to the system that triggers that valve to open) places a lot of extreme wear and tear on the plumbing system and you WILL have much higher rates of failure at wherever the weakest point of your piping system is. It might be in your wall, it might be at a faucet, it might be at your toilet, but these systems are a ticking time bomb and we have been forced to disable all the recirc pumps on all of our units because it’s cost the HOA nearly a half a million $ to date.
Buyer beware! I would much rather waste a half gallon of water than have to pay $10,000 to replumb my house, not to mention pay for the water damage when it blows while you are at work and floods the entire house. These pumps place extreme pressure on the system that’s much higher than the normal 50 psi your pipes normally see.
You have given some good information. Do you think my system is safe if I live in a single story house, do not share my hot water outside my home, and run my system only on demand (3-5) minutes a day?
@@gfotinakes316 It’s hard to say. On one hand, because your system isn’t running continuously that might be saving a lot of wear and tear due to high pressure water flow. But you may be trading flow for more pressure surges that go throughout the system.
Single story helps to minimize damage. Our units are all multi story and many of our flooding have been on the upper level which naturally causes trickle down (bad pun) damage to lower levels.
I’m not a plumber, I just pay the plumber bills, but I think it would greatly help reduce the risk if your system have one or more of those small copper runs to eliminate water hammer. I think they are called arresters or something. They miht help take the shock wave when your pump kicks on. It might also help your little bypass valve last longer because it may not be designed for on demand use and that’s why it’s clicking. Our units are all old enough that they did not have arrestors, but at the same time our hot water circulators were continuous systems and not on demand like you have so arrestors probably wouldn’t have helped our case.
We capture our warmup water in jugs. Average warmup is 2 gallons. This goes to the flowers and lawn.
Good job Jay! Once avoiding waste becomes a habit, it can be done without thought and every little bit helps.
All well except for the power used to pump the water full time and the BTU's needed to keep the plumbing system circulated or hot. The only gain here is the savings of water used to get the hot water but its at the expense of a pump kit, power used for the pump and gas or electricity used to heat the plumbing in the house. If power and gas were not expensive, the cost wouldn't be worth mentioning however, these days, gas and electricity are expensive so I'd guess and say the wasted water is likely the least expensive utility so, the math may work out to show, waiting for a gallon of water to bring in the hot might be least expensive overall. Note, the conveniences are better but they come with more cost.
This sure would be a problem, but this is not how the system works. The kit includes two hoses, a valve, a pump, and a timer. Each home has a choice of when and how long the pump operates. Most folks will have it on in the morning for a couple of hours during bathing times and then it shuts off. As I demonstrated in my video, my system is voice controlled and is only turned on for about 3 minutes before shower times and then is immediately turned off. The short duration of use in both of these situations makes energy loss no longer an issue. Thank you for your thoughts and have a nice Christmas.
I have had a Honeywell recirculating pump on my water heater for 20 years. It works great to get hot water to the upper level faucets and showers. The water savings are dramatic.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Thanks for this helpful video!
You are welcome!
I have purchased two of these recirculating pumps at a cost of $325 each installed. In a hard water environment, they last about two years so the savings is rather minimal. Personally, I would prefer to use the Asian solution of having hot water heaters in the area that they are used mounted under the sink and above the showers.
I have found the same issues with hard water. Thank you for your comment.
Very easy to understand tutorial. I'm a pretty good home DIYer so I'll be installing one of these pumps very soon because it takes about 1.5 gals of water until the hot water begins to flow out.
Goog luck, I hope you enjoy the quick hot water for years. Thank you for your comment.
The key to this system is the Alexa smart plug, Genius! I’ve installed many of these types of systems and the most efficient ones have an on demand feature, they run about $500 plus labor! The Alexa device allows you to buy the pump and sensor bar separately, saving an easy couple of hundred dollars if you do the labor yourself. Just need to make sure you have an electrical outlet for the pump and alexa plug!
On my installation the thermo valve under the furthest sink fails in open bypass about every 4 years. The system works great and the benefits outweighs the heat loss from the circulation of hot water out of the Water heater. Also provides freeze protection for pipes in winter. Also as other have mentioned insulate with noodle insulation all the pipes in and out of your water heater.
My bypass valves seem to fail in about 4 months, at least that is when the "clicking" sound starts. I think we have very hard water in our county and the deposits start doing their work quickly.
Excellent video!
Thank you very much! I hope you can set one up for yourself.
Thank you for sharing.
My pleasure! I hope you check it out for yourself.
Very good video! I was about to be critical until I saw that you had it linked in with Alexa. However, you can do one better. Set it up with a proximity switch of some kind so when you either enter the bathroom or pass the shower threshold that it starts pumping. I think that would be better because sometimes I’m going to forget to tell Alexa to turn on the pipe and also i’m not necessarily gonna have Alexa in the bathroom with me. So it needs to be a bit more automatic, and there are probably a number of other ways to do it. But thanks for the implementation and thanks for the inspiration!
Thank you for your positive remarks. I have been getting so many negative comments from people that only watch the start of the video and need to tell me how much energy and gas are wasted by running the system 24/7. I like your idea about a proximity switch, I have never heard of them before, something I need to check out.
(I can't believe we are talking about proximity switches for my shower. I remember as a child on grandpa's farm using the "out house" at night with a flashlight and wondering what creatures might be lurking below me!) Yes, times have changed!
yeah, and every time someone enters the bathroom to shave or fold towels the pump comes on. I love proximity switches, but this won't work. A simple $5 timer set at 5 minutes before you get up if you're on a regular schedule or a small window of 3 hours for the family works fine.
If you have a regular schedule, that timer is perfect and simpler than about anything else. I agree with what you say. One would have to figure out the switch location so it only covers proximate to the shower. Like one of those thermal motion sensors. But this is getting into the weeds and there are other simple ways like a push button you press right before you get into the shower or some such. Lots of ways to work it for ones lifestyle.@@jjyemg2397
I have an Amazon Echo Button on the counter of each of my three bathrooms. The buttons are clearly labelled and when pressed turn the recirculating pump on. An Amazon Routine turns the pump off 45 minutes after the button is pressed, so the pump doesn’t needlessly run. Works great.
You definitely want a hot water return line and you have to incorporate a check valve. The only problem I had with my system was that it used a temperature sensor on the return line to trigger the pump to turn on whenever the hot water in the line cooled off below a certain threshold. As I recall, the sensors were not available in a wide range of temperature options. In Southern California on hot days, the return pipe temperature stayed above the turn on temperature of 95F. I'd want my hot water to actually stay hot at say 125F or higher.
Interesting analysis.
I would think your gas bill would go up as well. After all, you're maintaining the temperature of the water in the lines as well as the heater itself. I would think the loss of water through a standard system would be much cheaper than the extra cycling of your hot water heater. If cost is not an issue, then I say go with it. It's nice to have hot water the second you turn on the tap.
I guess you did not watch the entire video. I explain how these systems come with a timer so you only set the pump to work during your busy times with hot water. My system is voice controlled so it only runs about 5 minutes a day prior to our shower times, it then is immediately turned off. Thank you for commenting.
@@gfotinakes316 That might work for people who have a fixed schedule and tend to use HW at the same time of day, every day, but for those whose schedules are less regular, it's not worth it. The costs involved in heating the lines and keeping them warm, even if they're insulated, is equal to, or greater than the cost of heating them once or twice daily. The only exception to this is when water in a storage water heater/tank is heated via an indirect heating element, with HW from a boiler, and that's only during periods when a boiler is required for home heating. Many people have switched to demand water heaters which are far more efficient overall, heating water only when it's needed. Attempting use the sort of setup being discussed here with a demand water heater is not practical.
@@gfotinakes316I'd agree, just one person using a system activated by voice or turning on the hot side but what about visitors and family members who come and go 7 days a week? Seems more complicated than it needs to be. I know of a guy who has a heat pump water heater tied to his Google app. No hot water in the house until he says "hey google, turn on the hot water". When we visit he is going back and forth telling the app to turn on hot water then turn it off with a house full of company. You'd think the guy would leave it on until bedtime.
Thanks George, you sold me!
Hope you enjoy it!
Thank you for this very helpful video. Just to clarify, is one pump all I’ll need for all my faucets? I want it mostly so that my kitchen faucet water gets warm more quickly but it is the closest to the water heater. If I install it on the one farthest away, will it still work for my kitchen faucet which is the one I want it for most?
I only have one pump and one thermal valve. (They came as a kit with two hoses that are also needed). I wanted warm water quickly for my showers so I placed the valve at the sink next to the furthest shower.
I notice that my kitchen water is not warmed at all by this set up. It makes sense because I have a volume of cooled water in the hot water pipe that has nowhere to go but out of the faucet.
In your case, I would place the thermal valve under the kitchen sink. If you want hot water at your shower quickly also, place a second valve in the kitchen and the pump will push the cooled water out of the hot water pipes simultaneously. Does that make sense?
Recirculating pump and return line is mandatory in my city, and has been for 30 years. Monterey, CA
Interesting, I wonder why the return line is also mandatory?
Your city requires people to heat water when not needed? Doesn't make sense.
I have one on a unit where pipes to the kitchen sink run through an exterior wall, and they froze during the polar vortex. The recirculation system in this case was used to prevent freezing in the future; as the hot water in that exterior wall becomes too cool, the thermal valve under that sink opens, and moves that lukewarm water through the cold water supply - this effectively keeps water moving so it can’t freeze, and it also keeps the temperature up especially for the cold supply pipes. The downside is that cold water might not be as cold, so it can be shut off during the spring through autumn to only use in winter.
EDIT: in the state of Pennsylvania
Interesting way to keep your pipes from bursting!
@@gfotinakes316 - crazy as it seems, the pipes were only frozen, they didn’t rupture. Tenants renting that unit had to get water from other places in the apartment for cooking and dishwashing. Pipes are still intact several years later.
Great informative and easy to follow video, George. I have a question about the operation. What happens if after you turn on the pump, you forget to turn it off after you're done using the water? Does it keep running, or is there some sensor in the pump that senses the back pressure and turns it off? Otherwise the pump would just try to push water through a closed valve and possible burn up.
That is a good question. I asked this question to a plumber and he said the pump continues to run and its force is such that it does not damage the pump. You can actually run them 24/7. It will waste electricity and heat loss through the pipes but may shorten the pump life from 12-13 years to 10 years.
@@gfotinakes316You can make an Alexa routine called "Hot Water": smart home, pump plug: turn ON the plug named pump, WAIT 15 seconds, turn OFF the plug named pump. Also,. you can buy a cheap Echo Flex and the sensor attachment for the bathroom, and the kitchen you can buy a button for when you don't want to reveal to your partner you are making a sandwich at midnight again.
@@mikemotorbike4283 You mean "wait 15 minutes" before turning off, correct? It will auto shut-off when the temp is met (usually 10-12 mins for me in the winter).
A centerfugal pump like the one used here actually unloads the motor when the flow is restricted. No damage. Just a few wasted watts running a pump that’s not moving anything. A vane or diaphragm pump will stall the motor when flow is blocked
after connecting the pump to the water heater and connecting a regulator (sensor valve) under the vanity in the bathroom, does that shower in that bathroom get instant hot water as well or does the shower need a regulator (sensor valve) as well? Also does every bathroom in the house need a sensor valve??
I don't know your plumbing set up, but I tell folks to turn on their bathroom sink to hot. When the sink water is hot, turn it off and turn on your shower, if it also is hot then that sink valve will give you instant hot water to that shower. If you find that another shower does not have that hot water, you probably need to add a sensor valve in that bathroom in addition to the first one. Let me know what you find out. Good luck and happy 2023!
The only thing I don't like about systems that use the cold water line for recirculation is that the cold water always seems to be lukewarm. Well, at least during and for a period of time after the recirculating pump is on. Then I find you end up running the cold water for longer to get your cold water. I guess that's still technically more efficient since you need electricity/gas/etc. to get hot water, but cold water is just the temp of the water at the water source. One of the best things we did with our new house was to install a dedicated recirculation loop, so only the hot water is being recirculated. Might be possible on some existing builds without too much hassle, depending on the plumbing setup in the house.
Many people are commenting on the dedicated loop for the hot water. I tried to go that route but the cost was too high on my older home. Thank you for your input.
I have a chili pepper that is button activated. It will only circulate the water when you need it. Works well and I am happy with it. Saves a gallon or so of water.
What is a chili pepper, that sounds interesting.
@@gfotinakes316 it is the brand name of a circulator pump.
Don't forget about the extra gas or propane to heat the water heater due to loss of heat for the cycling of water. Also I have had neighbors have internal issue with their copper pipes (pin hole leaks)due to the continued flow of water through all the copper lines. Lots of pros and cons
You are correct that there are pros and cons. But rmemeber, but this is not how the system must work. The kit includes two hoses, a valve, a pump, and a timer. Each home has a choice of when and how long the pump operates. Most folks will have it on in the morning for a couple of hours during bathing times and then it shuts off. As I demonstrated in my video, my system is voice controlled and is only turned on for about 3 minutes before shower times and then is immediately turned off. The short duration of use in both of these situations makes energy loss no longer an issue.
How long does it take to get cold water since the hot is returning on the cod side? Doesn't it waste just as much water waiting for cold?
Tom, I sent another response to you, but that is not a problem. The cold water is there almost instantly. I really can't explain why, but this is not an issue. Ask some plumbers and let me know what you hear.
The way you have it set up to only operate as needed makes it worthwhile. Without that feature, keeping the pump on 24/7 would waste tons of heat that gets lost through the length of pipe to the environment. The water heater would have to cycle on more often.
You are exactly right. Many viewers of this video don't watch long enough to understand this concept. Have a nice holiday.
How do you stop warm water from getting to your toilets?
I might have missed this warm water toilet issue in your video. Yes, you only run the pump during peak bathing hours, but those are also peak toilet hours. The “cold” water return line method, as described, seems to have no option to stop “warm” water from filling the toilets.
I have a recirculating system, with a dedicated return line; all insulated. We agree on the concept, I question the implementation. With a family of five, our house is used throughout the day and the pump stays on.
I never flush “warm” water through my toilets. How did eliminate this issue?
Should you install a pass through valve at all of the incoming faucets, if you want hot water at more than the furthest faucet? I get slow hot water at several faucets.
Yes, this is true. I was only interested in my two showers that also involve the two bathroom sinks, one of which has the valve. (We have a small house.)
I love mine. Saves a lot of water. And always have hot water....
Good to hear! Have a nice holiday season.