A Closer Look At The Mopar Gen 3 Hemi And It's Often Fatal Flaw
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Our first video concerning Mopar's Gen 3 Hemi's notorious camshaft and lifter failure phenomenon caused a lot of discussion and controversy. It has nothing to do with oil pressure, volume or quality, but everything to do with the relationships found in its valvetrain. This time we go back and illustrate our points with a simple demonstration that should settle things once and for all.
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Thank God my hemi rarely sees less than 50 mph, do you think the cops would accept that I'm trying to keep my engine healthy?
Just tell 'em that you're trying to keep the lifters properly lubricated.😁
@@bigbear5510 the only weakness with that argument is that it won't work on a Ford guy 😔
I’d tell cops, sir, just staying wet.
No! I tried once telling the cop that I was just following break in procedure. He didn't give a rats ass about my engine.
Thats why i always beat my hemi like it owes me money.
i service a fleet of trucks with hemi engines some have gone over 600,000 miles with no problems but have noticed the only ones that have problems are the ones that idle a lot.
That makes me wonder if more pressure helps.
@@greeceuranusputin many of the people are running shell rotella in the hemis seems to make them quiter
@@willythewave the company has record of truck and all expences its not my truck i just service them. they have had some problems with others but most have gone over 300,000 miles do you want to see the records or maby you are so smart you know who had the truck. its had regular maintenance brakes, water pump basic stuff one valve cover gasket but no engine repairs or transmission repairs. bitter than that do you want the phone number of the man who owns it your the one who doesn,t know what he is talking about
@@DependableAutoTruck shell 15w-40 rotella? Have u also tried this? Tia
@@rebelcowboy5.7l98 a friend of mine who works for city of Franklin says they use delo 15-40 in the city police chargers and challengers etc with the hemi engine. They've held up pretty good for the most part
"One more time for you slow guys"....when I saw your video of finding the flaw I was like yes he nailed it.... especially long idling time...
We have fleet hemis in Century Link phone company. We've replaced 3 out of 5 engines so far at our location. All have this problem.
Thank you for the demonstration. Even I, a corolla owner knows exactly what you're talking about
If you own a Corolla you are smart. I would expect you to understand lol
Doesn't say much about your taste in hotrods but says loads about your appreciation for good engineering.
alas poor dereck,i knew him well
no no not really but marty and moog did
Wow, the Corolla doesn't help and that demo was dumb. It ignored the effects of the bore on oil flow. Maybe if you weren't a Corolla owner you'd get that.
@@snek9353 they need at very least a groove from that undercut to the roller
The world needs more people like uncle tony.
Agreed this was very eye opening when I watched it I really apricate how Uncle Tony thinks things through logically and comes up with common sence conclusions I think maybe a pin hole manufactured at the bottom of the lifter body may be a good fix for this
we have enough morons already
Simple fix: Just put the engine in upside-down, like on the old German V-12 Me-109s. Camshaft would get plenty of oil.
The DB-600 series engines were overhead cam designs. They didn't have such oiling problems.
Do it.
So would the underside of the pistons
@@needmetal3221 lol
Isn't it common practice to empty the seeped down oil in the cylinders prior to starting in the old german upside-down engines?😄
As a service writer with Chrysler Dodge Jeep for the last 20 years it amazes me with some of the issues I’ve seen over the last 2 decades. As I tell the owners of these cars I just work here. I don’t own the company, the dealership or any part of FCA. I also didn’t design them. But Chrysler has not made my job very easy. I’m surprised that I am not an alcoholic. The design and marketing division is great. We make some great looking vehicles. Cars and trucks. It’s the engineering division that I’d like to meet in a dark alley one evening lol.
Don't blame the engineers. Blame business management.. Management has no idea what engineering is, how it works, or anything about engineering ... This is true in a lot of companies.. .... All they think is, they can go to a college and hire any engineer to build any motor.
I REALLY wanna talk to the engineering crew that came up with the Jeep Compass!!
Im not insulting you but Dodge is a WHORE of a company it has bought and sold like 3 or 4 times sence the 90s new owners new ideas new supply chain. Its a failing company just keep cashing your checks cuz it wont last another 10 years
The real problem is they have people who design cars on computer but never actually have put a hand on a wrench. Chrysler used to be run by car guys that went up through the ranks as mechanics to engineers to execs. Now they just hire engineers from college to design stuff that have never actually built anything. I went through this same crap at Cummins.
My 1997 Chrysler LHS is an excellent example. It was a design that was originated by AMC and Renault engineers. That's why the engine is longitudinal like an Indy car or Citroen. My LHS is a joy to work on. The alternator is on top and takes 10 minutes to change. Same with the AC compressor. The battery is right there in the open and easy to service. The oil filter is easy and the water pump, even though is it on the back of the timing belt is behind an easy sheet metal cover. The thermostat is right there in front of God and everybody . And for the topper, if the electric fuel pump goes bad, there is a cover with four screws just under the carpet in the trunk so you can remove it without disturbing the tank.
However, my sons, Intrepid is a gen2 LH car designed by Daimler-Chrysler computer design guys and EVERYTHING is a colossal pain in the ass to service. Alternator, down under the exhaust manifold same for the AC compressor. Thermostat on the side of the block under the manifold and behind the motor mount, so you have to jack up the engine and remove the mount and use 18 inch long extension to get to the bolts. The battery? where the fuck is the battery? Under the engine compartment in the right wheel well behind the inner fender well. The water pump (it's a 2.7) is on the oil side running off of the timing CHAIN, inside the motor. This is also why the 2.7, which otherwise is a great engine, fails so often. When the water pump fails you can't tell until it dumps coolant into the oil. This car was obviously designed by someone who has never had to service or put a car together. And the Gen2 was not an improvement. The Gen1 get's just as good fuel mileage, are quieter, ride better and handle better. But the gen 2 is obviously cheaper to built.
@@richarddixon70 I almost fell off the couch when you said “the battery, where the fuck is the battery? “. Yeah they get a real wing nuts that designed that damn boat anchor.
A simple fix might be to mill some longitudinal grooves around the circumference of the lifter just below, and 90 degrees to, the circular groove to allow the oil to flow down those channels to the rollers. The job could be done in a milling machine in about 3 minutes/lifter. The oil is still running down hill, just not as great a slope as the regular engine and, in your EXCELLENT demo, we can clearly see that the oil you poured on the lifter at the flatter angle dripped down to the groove then, since it acted like a dam, the oil backed up behind it and gravity too over and it dropped before it reached the rollers. (I was a Master Machinist in an earlier life) I think you nailed this problem Uncle Tony. People should be grateful for all of this information that you provide.
I took a picture of your comment for later use*
As a chrysler tech, they deserve a class action suit
Here I agree, but much like the Ford lawsuit over the 6.0. There the guilty party was Navistar not Ford, here it's the lifter supplier not Chrysler.
@@snek9353 You can have the best needle bearings installed on the lifters but without good oil lubrication, all will fail eventually!
I can't believe you don't understand what he said in the video the lifters are not the problem is the angle of the lifters that's the problem so it's the block that is the problem
@@eckrph And? Are you claiming the G3 hemi has bad oil lubrication?
@@unleashedrider4309 Tony is wrong.
This is consistent with my experience of every engineer I've known or worked with, they solve some complex problem that they think no one else can understand but miss the blatantly obvious issue that destroys the whole thing. Good job guys
I tried to convince Chrysler of this when my cam got smoked. They told me I was crazy and I had no idea what I was talking about
When someone says “you don’t know what you’re talking about” means that you do know what you’re talking about but they can’t agree with you, cause reasons.. 🙂😁
@El Meat Beat ; Better , a punch in the wallet.....between your meat beat sessions....
Liability avoidance 101
More info please, engine, year, maintenance?
Thats what i would have said too tbh this isnt a great theory
"There's nothing wrong with it"... If there was nothing wrong with it, it wouldn't eat camshafts to the point that replacement lifters are needed faster than they can produce them.
Realistically only about 5% of the hemis produced will actually have a cam job needed. Most of them if driven regularly with frequent oil changes won’t eat cams like we’re seeing here. Most of the ones ruined are the ones that are idled excessively or the ones that don’t receive frequent oil changes with the proper oil. I agree that there is a design flaw but remember we aren’t seeing dozens of videos about hemis that don’t tick we only see the ones that do.
@@stonewintjen505 By proper Oil. Do you mean Full Synthetic oil ??? My Father has 98,000 Miles. On his Ram with 5.7 Hemi. And it runs great, no ticking sound at all. But then he use's Full Synthetic oil. And changes it every 4-5,000 miles. I change my Hellcats every 3,000 miles with Full Synthetic.
@@kevinvojta692 that’s exactly what I mean, frequent changes (I do mine every 3,500 but I drive mine kind of hard and tow with it fairly often) with a full synthetic I prefer valvoline high mileage full synthetic. I think the most important things are good oil and frequent changes. I’m over 100,000 miles on mine and it sounds like new.
I worked for Chrysler and I would see eaten up cams, broken timing chains and thrown rods constantly.
All under warranty most had oil changes performed at the dealer.
Working at Volkswagen I replaced one engine in 8 years.
@@realhusky I think it’s pup I don’t think it’s a quality enough oil to be factory fill. But hey I don’t really know. All I know is that my truck is over 100,000 miles strong and still sounds and preforms like brand new. But I use valvoline full synthetic and I’ve started recently using a bottle of Lucas synthetic oil stabilized since I’m over the 100,000 mark
This is what I like about UTG videos, he teaches in a way that even someone (er... me) who is not familiar with engines can understand. That means UTG videos are the best I see for teaching. Thank you.
Just got done doing this on a 6.1 Magnum SRT8 (even have a video series about it). This seems to be happening in all of the Gen 3 Hemi engines at various mileages.
Auto Obsessive Garage, it's very common in a patrol car hemi somewhere between 50k and 70k, depending alot on idle hours.
Jeff Duncan I’m not really complaining because my Magnum SRT8 almost made it to 140k miles. Replaced the cam and all lifters...should be solid for some time.
@@autoobsessivegarage 140k is great. Most anyone could live with that one with no problem.
Watched a couple vids and subscribed. What do YOU think is the cause of your lifter failure?
snek really appreciate the sub. Honestly, I’d say oil starvation could certainly be a contributing factor...but 140k miles on a factory roller lifter is up there. Mechanical failure is a thing and with that mileage is not unreasonable. I can’t even hate on this 6.1 Hemi...after some internal cleaning this thing looks to be in incredible condition.
One more time for the slow guys 👌🏻
I have a friend that says, "For the course repeaters among you..."
😀😁😂
Ask the techs that service Police fleet Chargers with Hemi's. They see these chewed up cams and lifters all the time. Cop cars spend a ton of their engine run time just idling.
But that's okay! Tax-payers will always be glad to pay! Especially happy to pay for police mistakes!*
@@fyrbyrd71 Police mistakes? Idling your car is part of the job and every agency does it. As a dodge guy myself it is clearly dodges mistake, and he just accurately showed why. The explorers i drive at work can handle a ton of idle hours without issue. Most explorers we have will have in excess of 8000 idle hours before theyre taken out of service and ive never seen any issues whatsoever.
Except for the Exploders that were mysteriously causing cops to pass out while driving or idling their cars.
www.google.com/amp/s/www.autoblog.com/amp/2019/08/13/ford-explorer-police-interceptor-lawsuit-carbon-monoxide/
@@joestrohmenger9895 Idling is a NOT part of the job. Idling is a big municipal financial burden of unnecessary fuel usage all across the nation. I know for a fact "in-car computers" boot up with ease and are not required every minute of every shift of every day. Radios cover any delay and every dispatcher has a "policy enforcement computer" available on a whim for any radio request. Police make mistakes routinely. Mistakes payed for by... taxpayers.
Most California Highway Patrols use the V6 , only 5.7 for training.
You’re the man Tony. Clear as day. I had a gen iii but ran it like I stole it. No issues.
I didn't doubt you for a second on the first video regarding this. It's simple physics!!! Thanks again for making this even CLEARER for those that refuse to see the truth!!!!
Love this stuff. I have a lot of respect for engineers and their slide rulers, but I don’t trust the accountants who tie the hands of those engineers. Leave it to a guy working out of a storage facility to point out the emperor has no clothes. 😂
That's what happened to the much maligned Chevy Vega. The cylinder coating was fine as designed, but it was expensive so the bean counters made them thin it out to critical point of crap.
Machine a groove, on top of the lifter, from the reduced diameter above the roller to the roller cavity for oil to drip onto the roller. Might need to increase the flow to the lifter gallery, but don't know.
Do you mean within the lifter bore?
@@alvon911 if I read it correctly I think he means a small machined groove or spline on the top of the lifter that would create a passageway for oil to move directly down to the lower roller while still leaving adequate oil in the lifter bore to suspend the lifter in oil film.
The top side of the lifter is the side that would be dry to start with and that's still probably not reaching the rollers. Oil plumbed to the top of the lifter bore and an oil squirter aimed at the rollers would be the way to go.
I was thinking along same lines... A groove along top of lifter, maybe even an inverted "Y" that channels to pin ends(??)
Not sure how to do it, but putting a circular groove in lifter bore from oil galley to top of lifter bore would be ideal, along with top-grooved lifter to direct it to the roller...
My old Harley ironhead sportster uses this method. The lifter block itself has a groove machined along the length of the lifter bore to allow oil to drain past them onto the cam lobe. Passes right over the needles on the roller on the way there.
Interesting! These problems also seem to have started around the time most pickups went to a 3.21 axle. Knocked the RPMs down and probably made the problem worse.
People who build engine's like myself and you uncle Tony get it. Awesome demonstration and know how about things that need the simplest things to work but are over looked. Unfortunately that's every day of life now.
In hindsight, I now regret purposely trying to keep the RPM's down during the break in period.... Keep up the great videos!
I'm building a 5.7 right now and this is something to really watch!
Hell yeah I built a stroker 5.7 you keeping mds?
@@jeepwk6.5L MDS is gonna be deleted since we are going stand alone instead of sticking to the oem computer
NightWrencher I deleted mine as well. But stuck with the oem computer
Sucks to suck
@@jeepwk6.5L Why?
Idc what any people say about utg that's negative, this guy's has decades of experience in automotive. This guy has got me as a chevy guy to really respect mopar. and I actually feel like he cares about the young auto community buy making these videos. (Side note) grew up around classic muscle cars and rock and roll. These videos make me feel very informed and as a 22 year old man I really appreciate the old time mechanics teaching me. Thank you so much uncle T for all your hard work and God bless you brother
I had a locked up lifter and wiped out cam on my 5.7 at 94,500 miles. I am often told by other hemi owners on the forums that my problem was an isolated case and that their car with xx,xxx miles has not had any lifter and cam problems. As if that proves anything.
I’ve put 200k miles on two gen3s no tick - but I was doing 90% at 80mph. I just bought another used 2014 with 12k and it has the tick - apparently literally was never driven over 60 mph and tons of cold engine or idling time.
My 2016 started its Hemi tick around 25k miles... At 40k it the #1 cylinder was dropping... I didn't keep it long enough after that to see when the cam rolled over.
What do YOU think the cause of your lifter failure was?
snek If your question is directed at me my answer is I think Tony is correct. At extended low rpm the lifters are inadequately oiled and the rollers are as well. Once damage has occurred it is irreversible - failure can be delayed but not prevented. There is no cure other than perhaps the type of lifter that Johnson makes but I have seen zero empirical evidence either way on that.
@@gordtulk It wasn't directed at you, but no biggie. I think Tony however is 99% wrong, you maybe 20% wrong in what you said here. There's no indications that the supply of oil to the lifter is inadequate. There's some indication that at idle the oil supply getting to the rollers isn't. And yes once damage to a roller needle has occurred it's just a matter of time.
There's other lifter options, Mopar updated their lifters, Comp makes good lifters, Isky has a bushing lifter, etc. For those of us with stock engines year matters a lot, and the best thing to do is oil changes with good oil and not letting it idle for long periods in particular when hot with the AC on.
Personally I have a '14, I do 5K changes with Redline oil, don't let it idle much, always rev it before shutting off, and I'll be snagging an HP tuner soon, in fact maybe I'll do that now. With it I think I'll up the idle in particular when the AC is on. If I had to replace lifters now I'd probably use the comp cams bar style lifters.
Just as impressed as I was the first time you zeroed in on the answer. Nice work.
I was satisfied with your last explanation of this issue, now I am 100% convinced this this is the reason for the failures. You have great investigative techniques. Thanks for posting!
Except the oil is under 45 psi inside a tube that the lifter is inside of.
Sorry the oil is not just running off
So it’s literally a engine that’s meant to be run like a bat out of hell. I like it lol
@ yeah automatic or manual?
How is it even possible to design a roller lifter design that fails on a stock cam profile and doesn't get oiled enough? Don't they test anything in real world conditions?
@@scdevon they probably did and it seems like some engines have problems and others don’t. Kinda like chevys afm lifters some are going hundreds of thousands of miles with no problems but others fail badly at 80k miles. I think in dodges case it’s built like a race engine cool but stop and go is the problem. but also I’m thinking the metallurgy has to be dead on and with a mass produced part I can see less then perfect parts going out the door.
Interesting observations Tony. I worked as mechanic for 10 plus years. I don’t agree with your theory. For few reasons, this problem is present primarily in the later model hemi engines of 09 and up with VVT. The lifter failure happens on the MDS Style lifter. Probably just simply due to the complexity of the lifter it self, there is video on TH-cam that explains how it works in great detail. My theory is the lifter is prone to bounce on the cam lobe when in transition from MDS TO V8 mode and over time creating premature wear. Chevys LS Engines with MDS have the same problem, and guess what the lifter likes like the same part/supplier as the hemi.
Love your Channel.
As someone who justtt got F'ed over by the notorious lifters tekking that for sure requires change, I agree with what you said and Tony, and have been reading a lot that MDS has to do with it, thats why people buy Hellcat lifters that doesn't have MDS thinking that they are BETTER in build or quality.
Johnson Lifters has Hemi 3 replacements with "axle oiling".
I think crower has something similar
Drill a small hole in the bottom of the lifters up the oil flow to compensate for the 16 new oil leaks
Need to add spray bars to rectify the issue 👍👌
Electric oil pump that kicks in at low RPM.
I agree but I think it might bleed too much. I was thinkin the same thing. Drill tiny holes in that oil transfer pipe to shoot oil straight at the cam. It would be from below but will stick to the cam.
You would need both. Idk about an electric oil pump though ... I understand the idea, and use of an electric water pump though. I would just use an aftermarket high flow o.p . You start drilling tiny holes into that oil gallery your going to lose oil pressure in other places you need it. I won't take credit for this idea I read it elsewhere. But you would need both of them. Oil squirters , and an aftermarket high volume oil pump to make up for the lost oil pressure due to the oil squirters.
If you pipe it up like piston squirters on a diesel and run restrictors to regulate the oil flow and then maybe a high-volume oil pump if it becomes an issue but a little bit of oil in the right spot we'll take care of it
Tony, Thank You for all this - much appreciation from Queens, NYC.
How about drilling and tapping squatters on top of the lifters, on the plenum top? And redirecting oil to them ? Viable ?
Good idea...put that middle oil galley to some good use.
That's probably the ultimate fix, to squirt oil directly onto the rollers and the top side of the lifter
Yup!! Use MDS ports as a source(???)
Good idea but...Without actually having seen the architecture of the engine I'm not sure if you can access the oil gallery at the right angle to get the oil where it is needed. It may need to have some plumbing installed in order to get the oil in the right spot. Then there may be an issue of drawing too much oil from the gallery which will cause other parts to not have enough pressure to stay alive. (I'm assuming that the gallery feeds the rocker assemblies in the heads but again I have not seen the engine in person). Still sounds like something that needs to be investigated.
After this vid i uncovered my sons future project 5.7 and looked... Idk with stock intake, but with a carbureted intake (air-gap style) there'd be room to add some fuel-rail-esque plumbing and feed them from MDS ports. Itd be tiny...1/8in or less but it wouldnt have to be big...
Thank you Uncle Tony!! I was swapping the cam out of my 5.7L 13’ Ram and we found a bad piston; one of the lifters was starting to seize on the Cam, went ahead and make a 394 6.4L stroker.
In other words what uncle Tony is telling us hemi owners, keep the pedal to the metal. Nice fix! It’s cheep, it keeps things wet and fun
Glad I looked into this, just recently got into gen 3. Done plenty of sbc’s. There goes my curiosity on why the lifters on these things don’t like to live and some do.
Scotty Kilmer mentioned you in one of his videos. He had a HEMI with a miss and credited you with finding the cause. He was most complementary !!
Scotty also sent me to Uncle
Tony’s channel.
@Speed Tube Exactly. And even after that it looked pretty decent with the abuse.
One more time for you slow guys ! Hahaha had me laughing pretty good
Great video UTG. The demonstration you made, makes perfect sense.
Curious as to who the famous Engineer was? I worked with one of them (initials WLW) on the original Viper program, he co-authored the 1966 SAE paper on the street Hemi. Gave me a signed copy of the paper, very interesting read. I wonder if a tiny bleed hole on the bottom of the hyd portion of the lifter shooting pressurized oil directly into the needles would do the trick.
I was thinking the same.
My thoughts too.. perhaps a "direct lube" pressurized oil supply from the oil galley through the lifter body to those needle bearings would help. ?? I believe there are some after market retrofit lifters from a few different manufacturers that utilize that style, only on solid roller applications though ? Not quite sure... Isky comes to mind.
@@7s29 same
i was thinking that as well..or maybe tap into the oiling to have a spider with jets pressured with oil aimed at the rollers on the lifters
I thought Tom Hoover.
I never had a problem with my 5.7 but I drove them like I stold em. I guess that helped keep oil pressure up.
I have had zero problems with my 2006 5.7, but then I also only run synthetic oils and change it consistently. I do know that there seems to be a lot of new shit lifters being manufactured these days.
Never had the problem with any of mine either. I drive em hard and run Amsoil in them so maybe that helps 😏
@@thudtheace I've had zero issues with my 14' 5.7 either. But then I do not do much stop and go traffic driving. I do use Mobil 1 5w 20, and religiously change my oil as well. Knock on wood.
Anything you have to say, I'm listening. The old school guy can teach us more than we'll ever know. He forgot more than we'll ever know.
The bad thing is that these new engines are nothing like the old ones.
The people complaining are the people who have these engines and will not accept they are screwed. Thanks for the info. Much appriciated.
His proposition about the lifter angle being 100% responsible for this problem is not correct.
I literally have one apart right now with an issue not related to this with over 200k miles and have no cam wear and the lifters look practically new on the roller surface. The car has spent hundreds of hours idling due to the fact that when i worked in the oilfield i would leave it running all night long because i would sleep in it. Im not saying this sorta thing doesnt happen but its not nearly as common as people make it out to be
I personally would like to believe the lifters themselves are defective in the manufacture process but that is just speculation
@@luckygunner3484 If it is the lifter itself (which is used in many different engines with same specks), how come the gen 3 have higher statistics in lifter failure?
@@BessieMorrison please give me some examples of an engine that uses these same lifters other than gen 3 hemis
thanks for the video, I had this problem, cost me a bunch of $$$ to fix. My truck drives mostly highway miles, but is also used around town for shopping ect. Had to make repairs at 165,000. looks like I may have to do it again someday.
Nice to understand a little better whats going on. Thanks again
Their is a person who did a video on this saying how your wrong , however if the issue is with the ones at low speed stop & go , sitting & running . He with the gen 3 in frount of him that was a freeway driven one would not see the issue that the fleet truck would have . My brother in-law had a gen 3 hemi in his truck . It sees the freeway back and forth to work . It's a half hour drive but mostly freeway the slowest that thing sees is 35 mph . I have a 4.3 in a chevy truck it just goes .
Who? I want to see it.
@@snek9353 Guy's called Darth Hemi, but I should warn you, he's completely unwatchable. If you can battle your way though his videos and form a sensible idea of what he's on about, then please do come back and summarise his point...
@@jameshoward2738 Those were good vids, very informative actually, in particular the lifter comparison. He's not the most well spoken nor high production value but what he says is exactly right. What is it you don't understand?
@@jameshoward2738 Just watched Tony's first vid again, Darth's vid is even more on point then I thought. To summarize, Tony is a dumbass.
@@jameshoward2738 James, snek IS Darth Hemi. Classic troll tactics.
I was just oiling my crank and bearings for my 5.7. Perfect timing. Hope everything goes smoothly on the rebuild 🥴
Well there’s a few other theories as well like people using the wrong weight of oil to bad metallurgy poorly made parts or the fact that every dipstick I pull on pretty much anything at work is two to three quarts low on oil.
Ding ding ding, we have a weaner.
People let their oil get that low nowadays? Then they deserve engine failures!
Thank you for continuing to mull this over. The demo seems spot on. I watched the "MMX Hemi Lifter Tech Video" and the comparison of oil pressure/retention with different lifters. In that video demonstration, the improved lifter design holds oil at the top of the lifter and ensures more oil coverage around the lifter. It would seem then that a lifter that holds oil pressure better, more oil coverage in the bore, would feed more oil to the roller as it is moving up and down in the bore. There is oil carried on the camshaft lobe and transferred to the lifter roller. Whether these two sources of oil (lifter body to roller, oil from camshaft lobe) is enough I don't know. I do like someone's idea of dedicated oiling lines for the rollers (tapped into the oil line you pointed out, with holes aimed at each roller). I'm pretty sure this design (more of a horizontal lifter orientation) was known as a risk and somebody decided the risk was worth the performance (and given a fixed cost to produce the engine). Given that we are not hearing about failures on the newest Hemi, they worked around it somehow. FWIW, the concept of 'backyard mechanics can't improve an engineered engine' was debunked by Smokey Yunick, the Woods Brothers, and all those guys that built NASCAR engines. Looking forward to see where hotrodders take this engine moving forward.
Why do I get the feeling the guys bitching and suggesting Uncle Tony doesn’t know what he’s talking about are the same guys who puff their chests out after climbing out of their wife’s grocery getter four door Charger sedan? When you see a guy in a new Charger sedan, it’s only because his wife wouldn’t let him get a Challenger.
And wears lace underwear.
I didn't know I was supposed to consult my wife if I was buying a car for myself. Either way you can't get a manual in a Charger so...
@@TA_Plus_Hemi
No manual trans ?
Here's a vid on my feelings about that.
th-cam.com/video/15_Y3_eRfOU/w-d-xo.html
Made me spit out my coffee.
Or you like sedans and/or wagons.
I had a 2003 Dodge 2500 with the hemi and drove it for nearly 14 years with no issues. I gave the truck to my son and the cam went flat in less than a year. Thanks for a reason for the damage.
you have a great perspective on figuring out problems uncle tony! So how many custom parts did you make back in your top fuel days to improve upon the original design? I'm sure you made a few! thanks for the video !
Many, I'm sure.
4:42 Rotella T6 5W40 with your choice of MOS2 friction treatment and you'll never need to worry again.
I think the Johnson lifters with the directed roller axle oiling would be a huge step in solving the problem. There has been directed axle oiling on roller lifters in the diesels for 50 years and we rarely ever see problems. The only times I generally see a roller lifter failure on the big diesels is because whatever holds the lifter straight in the bore failed and it turned sideways. When the roller goes 90deg to the cam it is always catastrophic.
Ding ding ding! Winner winner chicken dinner! Johnson's are what I put in my Gen 3 hemi that I swapped in my JK Wrangler. Along with an MDS delete. I've ran it for a while, and it idles a lot while wheeling, have taken the engine apart several times for upgrades. Those lifters look like the day they were installed, same with the cams I've installed. They're not cheap, but they solve a problem that can cost significantly more to fix.
Turn up the idle in drive with a diablo tuner. It obviously requires a little extra brake force to keep it from crawling at a stoplight. I also added Prolong engine treatment. My Magnum R/T has 220,000 miles on it and has a slight lifter tick. I know it needs repaired but this procedure will buy you some time and it has worked for me.
Your explanation and presentation is sound however I disagree with you saying that Chrysler has a bad design in regards to this topic I say it's deliberate, planned obsolescence baby planned obsolescence!.....
@silverbird58 dude you view it however way you want to but you got to take the consideration that the Chrysler Co-op Corporation has been around from the early 19 hundreds you would think they're Engineers have a wealth of knowledge to clearly see that this can potentially be a problem if you want to put blinders on that's all you!
That "planned obsolesance" you claim has cost them a lot of money in warrenty work and meant their crate engine program isn't as successfull as it could be. They overlooked something. Happens all the time with car manufacturers.
@@stircrazyone7929 mistakes are definitely a factor after all we're only human, by saying that it's an excuse to make mistakes in my observation this is no mistake and let's not forget how mistakes cost businesses millions of dollars in recalls, a certain percentage will fail depending and how they're driven and others won't it looks to me like they found that sweet spot on this one!
@@lb9gta307 wow makes you wonder why they still in business, being that people's expectations are so high and our days!....
@@mannyr.2756 I went from working on Chryslers to working on Korean cars which I hear people say are "much better" when for the past few years Hyundai/Kia have replaced damn near ever Theta 2 engine. Those things were windowing blocks and oil pans, much worse than a simple lifter failure, yet people still buy them.
You're absolutely correct. I just finished rebuilding my 06 5.7l today. I'm not sure non MDS would solve this completely correct but I'd say it'd make it better. It is what it is but good job on these 5.7l videos.
Roller lifters do not spin in the bore like average standard lifters that's the wear pattern you are looking at, if you see those kind of marks on a standard lifter then that indicates that lifter wasn't rotating in the bore. also an easy fix to the roller lifter and its oil bath is to carefully grind a relief between the roller and the lifter on the top and the bottom at the oil groove.
@silverbird58 not a lot of room for a spiral groove tho.
Grind a relief?
Tony: This will end the debate.
The Debate: Hold my beer...
LOL!!!
SURE ILL HOLD IT!!!
@@RubenGonzalez-bs5rh That's what she said..
Personally I blame squirrels
I dont sub lots of people but you deserve it so much. Well done.
People need to realize that engines with roller valve trains need oil changes more often than flat tappet engines because needle bearings WILL NOT hold up in dirty oil.
They won't hold up to no oil. Harleys have been using needle bearing roller lifters for decades, along with the cam bearings themselves being needle bearings. Many of the old ones didn't even have an oil filter yet failures of the roller needles is not common.
LOL, 2 stroke engines are all needle bearing and have NO OIL.
@@snek9353 NO OIL?? The oil is in the fuel. LOL.
They get oil through the engine with the gasoline my friend the intake comes through the bottom of a two cycle engine so that the oil hits all the bottom and parts before it goes in the combustion chamber for lubrication
@@walasiewicz Yes I know, but there's no pressurized oiling system and the lubrication provided in this manor is minimal.
Put a cam in a block and pressurize the cam journals and watch the oil flow. It would be interesting to see how much oil flows or squirts out of the cam bearings, it would be interesting to see the difference in the flow with different oil pressures. Also with different oil viscosities.
I believe the majority of the problems lies with people leaving them idling in gear for a extended period , on a hot day, with the oil pressure running in the teens while sitting in traffic or whatever.
I was taught as a kid not to do that, but the majority of people don't pay attention.
I'm not saying you're wrong, oil from every avenue would be great, it probably would help in a low idle situation to have some drainage down the lifter, but I bet just a bumped up idle would solve most people's problems.
Putting it in neutral if your sitting, and touching the accelerator a bit don't hurt either.
I'm sure some has failed that's been treated right just like everything, but I haven't had any problems myself.
Another problem I see is people thinking dry lifter starts are ok.
I've seen dealer mechanics tell people it's normal for hemi's to knock when they first start.
I run 10w30 in mine and I don't have that problem.
“One more time for you slow guys” I love that one! UT I don’t give a skid mark ink what the naysayers have to say. You are hitting the issue dead on. Science and gravity doesn’t lie. I personally love the new hemi, even with its flaws, but I pay mind to those issues and try to not idle as much as possible as well as a dual oil filter setup and hvhp oil pump to supply more oil at a greater pressure for those hot conditions. Run a 160 thermostat as well to keep as much heat out as possible. Im in northern MN so heat is scarce.
As long as your aware of the issue, and do all you can to prevent it (regular maintenance, correct oil, don't idle for too long) you should be okay. Police vehicles suffer this issue the most with extended idling times in the dead of summer for hours on end sometimes. But that will be tough on any engine.
160 isn't even hot enough to get the moisture out of the oil. Standard operating temp exists for a reason, below it you get more wear, not less.
we recently bought a 2020 hemi powered chassis cab ram with the 6.4, and ive noticed that the warm idle from the factory is pretty high around 900 rpm. it seems chrysler is aware of this low rpm oiling issue and that's their bandaid
What if they adapted the Piston squirters and it pointed at the cam
I was thinking of somthing like that
The main oil gallery is in the way. It sits between the camshaft and the crankshaft just below the camshaft.
@@blegi1245 That's the reason to use a squirter- instead of pointing the squirter tube at the underside of the piston like the factory 6.1, aim them around the galley and at the cam. Stock 6.1 squirters threaded into the galley are shown in this link... see the gap where the tubes could be extended and aimed:
i.ebayimg.com/images/g/EVsAAOSwgPVcs5uL/s-l500.jpg
Tom Hoover came out of retirement to help design gen 3s if I'm not mistaken. I personally fell in love with the gen 3 amd was always an r/b type of guy. But great job UTG.
Monday morning massive Chrysler recall. Powered by my favorite uncle
Doubt it, most vehicles make it out of warranty before failure so Chrysler has no interest in fixing it.
bcbloc02 Maybe you should google the definition of sarcasm
bcbloc02 But even no I was being sarcastic. Your point is not true. Tacoma frame issues. For one. There are quit a few examples
Interesting video. A simple change to the lifter would cure this-use only a half-collar near the roller bearings that would allow near horizontal oil flow, which would also oil the cam better. A different lifter is needed for these specific Hemi engines.
When are you going to offer that tee shirt for sale?
They're on his website
Only difference is it on the back..
I'm still waiting for the Cadillac shirt
@@AtZero138 while CCing you can't see the back of my t-shirt.
@@sputsputskeeskee7113 If you ask to have it printed on the front, Uncle Kathy will take care of it.
Your Hemi video was highlighted by Scotty Kilmer and that is how I found you. Thanks Scotty!
Mabey it’s a self clearancing engineered masterpiece???? Lol . Don’t listen to the haters , Great video as usual tony.
I get your point about the angle of the lifter, however just pouring oil over the lifter may not simulate how the oil moves through the system. While the engine is running, oil is constantly moving though the system and is under pressure. I would think, it would reach the rollers under these conditions, if not the lifter wouldn't last very long at all. Since some fail quickly while others last well over 100k its seems to me that it's more of a parts quality issue. Chinese metal?
Why couldn't you drill very small holes in the oil supply tube/gallery to essentially squirt/spray oil at the lifter rollers? Perhaps use a drill bit smaller than the diameter for a piston oil squirter and I would think you would have enough volume and pressure that it wouldn't starve other components. Seems to me like it wouldn't be incredibly difficult to do. My 08 Hemi has this issue with 220K miles and it idles a lot. I have heavy oil in it because the rings are bad also. I do notice the sound gets worse the longer it idles. I'm going to rebuild it soon, but I want to address this before I do, since it does idle so much.
I was just thinking the same thing, along with a high volume oil pump.
Oil squirters are a great idea
We all have to thank God that this man exists. Uncle Tony laid out the problem and told us like it is. He didn’t butter it up he didn’t kiss any manufactures ass.
If we had more men like this in our society, we wouldn’t have a lot of the problems that we’re having today.
Could tiny holes be drilled in strategic locations to mitigate this condition, without dropping the volume of oil too much to the bottom end?
That's the same idea I had. If it does work, you would probably need to increase oil pressure and or volume.
That Hemi critique was the first video that I saw of yours. I agree with you and I've been hooked ever since.
This guys got it. Absolutely perfect demonstration!
Great explanation & visual! Thanks uncle tony.
UOOOO! Common sense, and a factual demonstration that anyone with functioning eyes can see plain as day. And yet, there is still dumb butts out there who want to impeach Uncle Tony.
Yep I can only say that welcome to 2020 where dumb asses are more and more common, they’re everywhere, and have the loudest opinions and they’re own dumb ass “crews”, which will attack to you if you’re having a knowledge/common sense based opinion or whatever.
It’s like, they think that educated/sophisticated individuals can’t know or understand something that they’re not understanding, and that’s enough for them to call everyone else out that they don’t know shit.
It’s funny and sad at the same time. 😂
There's no common sense here, his demo ignores the effect of the bore on oil flow.
snek You must don’t know the difference of common sense and.. something else sense.
Common sense isn’t really common so.. 😂
@@Jubr123 Neither is good grammar apparently.
@@Jubr123 don't worry snek dosen't know the difference between boundry lubrication and hydrodynamic lubrication tried telling me a cam with oil holes is the same as a crank oiling
Dude you spend way to much time, proofing your point and giving attention to your haters, but man.. That's actually what I love about you and your channel.... Please keep on doing what you guys are doing, actually the most legit car guy channel I know on this platform..
You just got a new subscriber.
you'll enjoy this channel. Tony's pretty sharp and honest!
It would be a helluva job to get right, but you could always drill a pin hole to squirt the roller the way a fuel pump eccentric gets oil. Or drill/tap a larger hole and thread in a 5/16" steel line to redirect oil, not unlike the trick used on the small block Mopar for bottom end oiling. Getting the nozzles or holes to spray correctly through the range of PSI would be tricky though.
I like that shirt. If that cam was any higher it would be a SOHC engine. LOL
Pretty straightforward tutorial update, having watched the first video you posted awhile back.
That being said, my '12 Challenger w/5.7 hemi and M6 trans now has 122,600 miles on the car and the engine performs like the thoroughbred it has always been, since about 95 to 97 % of its engine life has been at 1800 to 2000 RPM on the highway.
Just saying I get it as far as a rather piss-poor oiling system for an otherwise great engine, and can see where extended periods of idling(such as police car use)would tend to wear out the lifters prematurely.
Thank you for the update, removes all doubt!
*@Uncle Tony,* you hit the nail square on the head here. I have never worked on the guts of a Gen 3, so I never knew the lifter angle was so shallow! That's ridiculous! Even before you said anything, as soon as I saw the lifter angle I was like, "WTF???" 😳 But I think what is just as important to underline in conjunction with the lifter angle is what you mentioned in your first diagnostic video about this issue. Which is in Ma Mopar's infinite wisdom (or lack thereof), they cast a freakin' oil galley tube that runs the entire length of the camshaft that obstructs oil from splashing up from the crankshaft to the camshaft and lifters! Again, I have never been in the guts of one of these engines, but I was _astounded_ when I learned this and saw it for myself. How could the engineers be so stupid??? Where did they get their degrees? From a gum ball machine? lol For anyone who hasn't seen it yet, click on the link below. It's pretty self explanatory. When you obstruct the oil being slung off the crankshaft that is CRUCIALLY responsible for literally 90%+ of the oiling for those lifter-to-camshaft surfaces, you run into major issues. Especially under lower RPMs. Uncle Tony cracked the code.
The lifters rapid rise and fall has an effect, the lifter isn’t just stationary.
Just watched Dath Hemis post, he managed to misquote every thing you said. I'd have a tendency to believe someone who's built several hundred engines, as opposed to someone who's built a coupe.
Good demonstration. However, something that's left out in the demo is that the lifter is reciprocating back and forth. So, some of that oil that's just flowing down past the roller (in the demo) will actually make it to the roller just from that motion/momentum. However, the main take away point of the demo is still true: At idle rpm, the lifters/cam are more apt to be oil-starved, relatively speaking. So, avoid letting your Hemi idle for long periods. (Do not idle in a parking lot with the AC/heat on, avoid drive-thru lines, etc.) On occasions where your stuck idling in traffic, every so often, rev your engine to 2000 rpm and hold it there for ~5 seconds.
7:30 for all you special needs guys. I love my 1963 ford. Lubrication has lasted 60 years. Going strong and the Fairlane looks great. GLAD I CANT AFFORD A HEMI!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not trying to stir the pot, but have seen some very deragatory comments about you from other channels. I have no stomach for the disrespect. it is very clearly a insufficient lubrication issue. Love your channel, enjoy listening to a fellow motorhead!
"Idiot proof" will be accepted as a challenge by some, Tony.
I reckon an easy fix for this would be to groove the lifters down from the lifter oil gallery to the roller, it is a common old school mod on engines that sent too much oil to the valve gear, it could be re-purposed to send more oil to the rollers.
All that is needed is a small rotary burr a steady hand and a bit of know how.
I'm doing it to my lifters before I install them. After Tony's demo it's a no brainer
I could guess at how this happens. Since high splash is what provides the lube needed. I'm willing to bet they almost never tested for the stop and go with any serious intent.
Side note you may be able to weld on a blade on that oil galley so that as the engine slings oil up it wants to go to the cam instead, but you'd get minimail results and maybe fuck up the galley.
Thank you for this (and the other video)!!! Your reasoning makes perfect sense. I had trouble with my Gen 3 Hemi 5.7L this time last year. Thankfully it wasn’t the lifters, but through my research about the engine I discovered it as a major failure point.
My problem was a dropped valve seat on cylinder #1 that took out the piston head and scratched up the cylinder wall.
There are lots of opinions posted online about why the valve seats fall out of the heads. What are you thoughts on it? Poor valve seat material, too much heat, oil contamination from poor PCV system etc?
I picked up a set of new heads that supposedly use better quality valve seats... but who knows if that’s true or not :)
...also, do the MDS lifters have any difference in allowing oil to reach the needle bearings vs. the non-MDS versions? (I imagine the problem would apply to both types equally).
This damn thing won't let me push the like button more than once.... sorry Uncle Tony... :D
Great explanation. Fortunately my commute involves in highway driving.
solid easy demo - thanks
Great explanation UTG. I plan on doing a cam swap and lifter replacement one day so it doesn’t matter but it is not great to hear that its a hopeless design flaw. I try not sit and let the car idle for too long. Maybe a discussion on best oil or additive to use in a gen 3 is another good topic which may or may not help the situation. Maybe tune the engine to idle at a faster rpm or use a racing oil with zinc? Would love some constructive thinking to find an improvement to help a lot a viewers. At least I know what is bound to break one day. Still love my Gen 3 hemi. Never buying a ford or chevy.
Spot on Brother!