Understanding the Indo-European King (and the myth of Cinderella)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- There are myths behind the king figure of the Indo-Europeans, but why, what do they mean? And how does the king relate to the tripartite ideology talked about by Dumezil. And what does all this have to do with Cinderella? And does it mean it's older than the Proto Indo-Europeans?
Bibliography & Citations
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Jaan Puhvel, "Aspects of Equine Functionality," in Myth and Law among the Indo-Europeans: Studies in Indo-European Comparative Mythology, ed. J. Puhvel (Berkeley, Los Angeles, and London, 1970), pp. 159-72.
Georges Dumezil, L'idéologie tripartie des Indo-Européens (Collection Latomus, Vol. xxxi), Bruxelles (Berchem), 1958. Pp.32-33
Bough, J. The Tripartite Ideology of the Indo-Europeans: An Experiment in Method.
Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London
Vol. 22, No. 1/3 (1959), pp. 69-85
Lincoln, B. Myth, Cosmos, and Society. Pp. 156
Thanks and Licenses
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Thumbnail and other artwork (c) Mamontova and licensed to Creganford
Intro music licensed from Artlist.io
Video clips licensed from Artgrid.io
Pictures are my own, or licensed from Shutterstock, Pxhere, or Pexels. And are subject to copyright and license agreements.
Chapters
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0:00 Introduction
00:37 The King is the land and the people
04:35 Truth and Horse Goddess
07:24 The King and the Priest
08:30 The God-King
11:32 Losing the right to Rule
15:11 Summarizing the King in Indo-European Culture
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An interesting addition about the cinderella story: in the German version (Aschenputtel) the two stepsisters actually have parts of their feet cut off by their mother so they can seemingly fit inside the shoe.
Yes, the old versions of the fairy tales are quite cool! :) Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment. It is appreciated.
That's interesting to know. I wonder what the lesson/moral of the story was for that.
something I could see that kardashian mother doing lol
@@wUrmsalad More appropriately, it's something the former "father" would do, to "fit a role"!
The very same thing is present in the Romanian version of it; I was actually surprised to find this detail missing in the English/modern variation of the story.
Another good example of the wounded king whose land suffers is The Fisher King from Arthurian legends.
Interesting this still seems to be relevant in the British Monarchy. Queen is the Head of the Church of England. All of her immediate heirs have had a military career. And they have their estates which are mostly agricultural.
Its the same in the usa as well really, the president tends to lead the religious heart of our country weather we claim that theres separation of church and state this is true
@@davidmedlin8562 As someone who has lived in the USA his whole life, this is blatantly false. I don’t know anyone who sees the president as a religious figure
@avatar_singh What absolute bollocks!
@avatar_singh lmfao anglo saxons were a germnic tribe and germans are indo europeans. you come from a bizarro parallel reality
@@davidmedlin8562 There no longer is. Whether the Condtitution says so or not. Our country has gone insane.
Yes. Divine twins & the horse. Joseph Campbell made much of how often twins are mentioned in so many narratives.
Kings likely evolved from Chiefdoms but it wasn't a cut and paste evolution like some video game so the first "Kings" were likely just that, the tribal elder who knew how to do a bit of everything just like your Grandfather seemingly could. Eventually things got more specialized but the King still needed to pitch in.
BINGE LISTENING - Just found this channel. Loving it. Wish you used more pics, but it's still very easy to watch and follow. Watching one of your playlists connecting Indo-European origins to later mythologies. Thank you so much. There is never too much history for me.
Thank you for your support and feedback. I'm slowly adding more pictures, but will try and do more in future videos.
Yes, pictures just make it even better, illustrate your very good telling! It does take the videos to the next level awesome! 😊👍
Just watched this after the John Mason video. So good.
"Incest and betrayal! And, on that note, cheers...." I'm sorry but I laughed involuntarily at that transition! Thank you for your contribution to our understanding of our ancestors; it helps make me feel closer with them, and more grounded in myself and where I am. I am curious, if a king then became old, or suffered an injury, who in the tribe could possibly be empowered with overthrowing and/or murdering or sacrificing the king? Cheers from British Columbia!
Haha! Yes, the joys of trying to keep my videos short causes these things :) And to answer your question, as I hinted at the end, it was kept in the family, hence the importance of male heirs. I can talk about this separately if you think it would be interesting. Thanks for watching and your comment!
@@Crecganford There is something I wanted to ask you from an earlier video, thank you for welcoming a private enquiry!
Twin Flames....
from different families. You all - are also sisters and brothers - one race = Humans.
so you all really do also marry a sister or brother too. THINK clearly. Do not judge.
Y'all will live longer if you do not judge others. Do unto others .....
You’re amazing! To recall that volume and detail of information in a running narrative is just astonishing. Great job!
Thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment such kind words.
This makes sense. I remember my Dad (who had a PhD in Theology) told me about traditions where Adam was reincarnated, and in some incarnations came back as Methuselah, Hermes Trismagistis, Elijah, and even Jesus. Adam was wed, of course, to Eve, and lost Paradise (and even a rib). So the elements all seem to be there.
The pain Adam suffered delivering the first woman is a male inherited endless one. Always wonder why more is not known about how & where she met 'Serpent' (sex unknown) the menu consultant lawyer.
My pessimistic side agrees. But my Mom is one of the strongest people I ever knew (like my Dad) even if she was flawed. As we all are. @@user-qs7gx7rp7m
My Mother was one of the strongest people I knew, and she had many many flaws. She has dementia and was admitted to hospice last week. I miss her already.
Thank you profusely for doing this. I don't know of any other source for this information put together in this fashion and it's one of many areas I study constantly.
Another brilliant video! Thank you so much for making this playlist!
And thank you for watching, and taking the time to comment and let me know!
This video was really fun. Thank you so much for making them
And thank you for your support and watching them!
Like Nuada Silver Hand in Irish mythology? losing an arm in battle and the evil overlords taking over. That’s such a badass story.
Yes, exactly that! :)
@@Crecganford I have to say, Nuada was the first king that occurred to me when you first mentioned the king losing power by losing a body part. It's a very good example of losing power then regaining it when the king is healed.
Plus, if you have to lose a hand, who wouldn't want a cool, silver one to replace it?!😉
@@I_am_Irisarc It is a great story, and it is more complicated than people often realise as I'll explain in my next video on Tyr. There is a connection between the body part lost and the position of the person in the tripartite society.
Oh, that sounds very interesting! What about the Grail King who was wounded in the groin and was infertile, and thus the land was barren. @@Crecganford
@@nerowolfga8543 Each year or so the Matriarch would seek a new consort.
The death of a male, either old consort or aspiring consort... supposedly.... invigorated the yields of the farmland.
Reference King Arthur and have s "nephew" Morddted.
Even Jesus...John Barleycorn ..
I would like to let you know how much I enjoy your videos. They are always interesting and insightful. When I see you have put up a new video, I try to save it for a time when I can listen without interruption. And considering my haphazard consumption of YT videos, that is a real compliment. 😊
Thank you so much for your support, I appreciate that, and any comments and questions you have.
the king is the land and the land is the king. When the 'king' becomes inflicted he loses power. The most extreme version is the story of Miidhir who loses his eye. He cannot go home without his eye. Nuada cannot be king without hs arm. The Celts were very strct about ths rule.Cormac mac Airt a real man gave up his kingship when he was injured in war. He retired to a monestary.
Yes! Exactly. Thank you for watching.
Would be great to hear about those 'other twins'. Great video as always !
Once upon a time there lived a Celtic Prince.
He knew one day should his Kingdom be in crisis he could be sacrificed , ostensibly to transition out of crisis.
He pondered on what effect would his triple death have on the creative powers.
Concluding that a lack of rain or failing crops or infestation by locusts had occurred in
the past and occurred cyclically despite the killing of earlier kings, he determined it was nonsensical.
So it was one night he discretely left his smoke filled village in its hillfort.
Eventually he arrived in Galatia.
He enlisted in an army that Al.ied with Alexander.
Travelling with Alexander to India.
He resigned from the Greek army.
He studied Buddhism.
Travelled to China and on to Japan.
This occurred.
Good story, bro. Any sources?
@@nerowolfga8543 I imagined it years ago...past life....?. I used to wonder what was the magical effect of being sacrificed.
For example William the Red in 11th century apparently was.
I read that The Galatians a Celtic tribe fought with Alexander. But after I thought of an escapee Prince joining Alexander. Why Alexander?
Also once in India Buddhism travelled through a Himalayan pass to China and then Japan.
Ut woukd make a good movie.
There are also a number of fairytales that involve the heroine loosing her hands or arms (ATU type 706). Interestingly the start of these fairytales often resembles a Cinderella variant (ATU 560B, the best known version of which nowadays is probably Donkeyskin) in which the heroine instead of being humiliated at home, is cast out from home or flees in the guise of an animal.
The reason the Girl Without Hands and Donkeyskin tales are not as well known nowadays is that this flight from home is often to escape a father's or brother's incestuous desires.
The interesting thing with Nordic mythology is that many figures seem to lose a body part, and so it seems as though there is something else going on alongside this. I have a website www.mythologydatabase.com if you wish to combine ATU searches with Berezkin's database.
when we go that far back it becomes impossible to distinguish the stories based on common myths, from those recreated everywhere similarly from common human struggles. It's still fascinating to think about it but it's frustrating to know we will never know. until we invent a time machine.
you are a wonderful teacher, I appreciate your work a lot, it is enlightening
Thank you for your kind words
Amazing vídeo. Can't wait for you talk about the twins!
Thank you for watching and your support
I never knew about the different versions of Cinderella, and that the tale is common to many tribes around the world. Thanks for your educational information that teaches and inspires learning. That's how ALL teachers need to be!
I had NO idea that the tale of Cinderella was so old and widespread, having been raised with and knowing only Grimm's version of fairy tales. From google: "What is the original story of Cinderella? The first recorded story featuring a Cinderella-like figure dates to Greece in the sixth century BCE. In that ancient story, a Greek courtesan named Rhodopis has one of her shoes stolen by an eagle, who flies it all the way across the Mediterranean and drops it in the lap of an Egyptian king.Mar 15, 2015".
Ancient and tribal tales are fascinating, providing Disney and Hollywood an endless stream of "entertainment". I'd rather see your version of material presentation, than the rampant sexualized idiocracy everywhere else! Thanks for doing what you do!
And thank you for watching and leaving such a great comment, it means a lot, and encourages me to do more.
Only among Make dominated Aryan tribes not among negroid and dravidian tribes .The concept is quite alien 👽 to us.🙏
@@vijayvijay4123 the thing that you Said is against what this Channel says, if i was in you i would document myself with more scientifical things
One of the earliest variants of the current Cinderella story available in recorded form is the Icelandic one. It is called Vilmundar Saga Viðutan
Wow I love the captions!! So useful!
Thank you
I am so glad I discovered your channel, I saw a guy commenting in a video of another channel and decided to come check this out! Thank you for the subtitles as sometimes you speak inwardly hehe! But other than that it’s great!!!
Thank you for watching and your support!
Excellent lecture on the subject Kingship among the Proto Indo-Europeans. Your explanation hit all points within the narrative. Kudos!
Thank you for watching, and your kind words, they are appreciated.
Good morning Jon and everyone
Good morning (well, it's 3pm here, but it feels like the morning)
Thanks for the video and for all the work y’all put into them. God bless
Thank you
@@Crecganford how did indo european train their kids to be warriors and men,how thet prepare foe war and comaby
@@ajithsidhu7183 that's a great question! But not easy to answer. I shall make a video to answer this :)
@@Crecganford thanks
This video was so interesting- I've been weaving in and out of all your videos the past few weeks, catching myself up, and I want to let you know how much I appreciate your sharing all of this information and especially your presentation style. Your tone comes across as friendly and while I sometimes will re-listen to a few seconds because my audio processing fuzzed out & I missed an important concept, I never feel like it's over my head. I'm going to go see if you did wind up making one about the divine cow -> white horse.
Thank you so much for watching, and I haven’t specifically made one about that although we do touch on the horse in an interview I did on the British Creation Myth. The horse is just an evolution from the cow of an important animal, just as cows replaced crops as a form of wealth. Although that is a rather over simplistic way of looking at it.
@@Crecganford Isn't there this incredible important plow revolution? 🤔 They used two oxen to plow the fields and in time they found out that draft horses are even better than oxen and the yield of a field plowed by draft horses is substancial more. Could it be that that improved the status of the horse for the common people? The draft horses were not available for the common farmer but for some reason that had changed, I do not remember the whole complex story concerning this topic nevertheless I still know this plowing revolution was a very important thing...
@@KimChi-iy7jd The difference was the invention of the collar that could be used instead of a yoke. A horse will suffocate if a yoke is put around its neck, so the collar which is open at the front lets the horse push with its shoulders.
@@andrewtime2994 Neat. Thank you for giving me the piece of information that helps to close the gap. 🙂
Amazing content as usual
Thank you
great video, thank you.
Thanks for your content.
And thank you for watching it.
I'd love to hear more about the injured ruler and tracking it all the way to Palaeolithic, if possible. Thanks!
I'm not sure that is possible, but I will come back to this subject again in the future.
It seems you're talking about the Hero's or Heroine's Journey, truly a tale as old as time.
It's nice to have something like this to turn on kids' minds and get them interested in mythology and our history. Our ancestors didn't know about the weather so they attributed it to a god, (Elohim/Yaweh), or gods, (Zeus/Jupiter/Thor), etc.
Really enjoyed this presentation. Any suggestions on some further reading into the Maimed King/Hero hypothesis?
Thank you, and I will mention this more in my next video. As a book I would probably recommend Lincoln's Myth, Cosmos, and Society, as it explains how man and the earth are linked, but also consider Dumezil's work on Tripartite Society (although much of his work is in French) as a bit of background reading. Or as a first read combining everything there is a paper by Emily Lyle called "Dumezil's Three Functions and Indo-European Cosmic Structure" you maybe able to get hold of, it is on JSTOR if you are studying at a University. I also put references to most of the papers or books I have knowingly referred to in the description of my videos, so looking at these may help you. But please, ask questions if you have any more, and I'll do my best to answer them.
Robert Johnson's work on Percival and the Fisher King is on that subject, worth checking out.
It's interesting that you should bring up the relation between loss of limb and xwarrah. There are examples of disqualification from succession in Sasanian Persia, such as in Jamasp, brother of Khusrow I, who, despite being older, was not named heir due to his missing an eye. These myths and their associated beliefs can be observed as effecting the strokes of history.
I wonder, though, do they have their roots somewhere more primal -- I would find it somewhat understandable that you would want your king to be whole in body, and to conciliate an outraged son you could cite some tradition of ancestors dead long ago -- and therefore unlikely to have their authority challenged!
Wow! I didn't expect this! All of this we have in Bulgarien mythology and history! Fir example the king should have a special guiding spirit called orenda and if he loses it he is not fit to be king. For example Krum lost his vision and get ritually hanged. The blood of king is sacred and it must not be spilt in order the land to not lose its power. So he was hanged. A sacrifice of white horse was a common ritual before major events. Before the attack of Constantinople the king entered in the waters to give them his power and then give from that water to the soldiers... And so on and so on... All of this we have I am amazed!
Oh, I will have to look up Bulgarian myth, it sounds fascinating.
@@nerowolfga8543 unfortunately most of the information that you can find in internet is about forest spirits, dragons e.t.c. if you want to go deeper you will need books
Another great video
Thank you
How does this fit in with Gael or even Pictish culture? The Pictish were matrilinear in nature while the Gael 'elected' their kings.
Understanding the concept of 'Duthchas', in its complete form, and marrying the land, the people and the life on the land would help as there was no hereditary right.
The 'king' could be removed and his judgements questioned. This descended into the concepts of the common good and of Salvo in Scotland, before the Union of the Crowns.
The king was certainly not seen as a god, just the first amongst equals. :)
Thanks for watching, a great comment, thanks for taking the time to write it up.
from what I can put together, it seems the title of kingship turned into a bit of a poisoned chalice - with the title being taken away if the land failed or the king was injured. By 'taken away', I mean they killed the poor bugger.
I've heard it put forward that many bog bodies, particularly in Ireland, were likely once kings that were killed in a 'three part death' after a set time.
I have to ask myself how the more powerful members of IE societies worked the system so them and theirs wouldn't be chosen.
The priest class were likely the real power in IE societies...seems to me it was them who got to make the important decisions.
It'd be great if you can look into the irish myths more closely.
Must be why I don't like scotch.
Very interesting question! Good job!
Let this channel grow!
Thank you, the last week has been unbelievable, we've doubled in size!
@@Crecganford congrats! Great and interesting content
very interesting, thank you
And thank you for watching.
I didn’t understand the link between the injured king and the Cinderella motif at the end. I only know the
Grimms version where the prince or king is rather a background figure and no injury is involved.
The feet are cut to fit the shoe
I always used to wonder why Keomarth (Gov-mard/ Cow-man) who was the firstman created by Ahura Mazda was called King Keomarth in Ferdowsi's Shahname. Thanks for the clarification 👌🏾
gov mard is the same in Sanskrit too
First of all, thanks very much for sharing all this knowledge, it is really valuable for understanding where we can from (which includes all indo- european countries of course). Interesting fact about Cinderella (Gatta Cenerentola, in its original language), I reckon the story was created by Giambattista Basile (Kingdom of Naples, xvi - xvii century), based on Bourbon (French-Spanish dinasty) occupied Reino de Nápoles y Dos Sicilias. In theory, Cinderella was a neapolitan ("gatta" means cat, in italian). Whether Mr Basile based his story in a pre-existing one ... we dont know (Also "Puss in boots" is from this neapolitan author)
Wow, that was interesting to know, thank you for taking the time to share, and watch the video. It was very much appreciated.
@@Crecganford an interesting difference of that version is that Cinderella is persuaded to kill her stepmother by her governess, which then becomes her new stepmother
Regno delle Due Sicilie was the name
@@didonegiuliano3547 Yes, even though in Spanish (I am Spanish) History books often refer to it as "Reino de Nápoles y Dos Sicilias" when it was under Spanish influence ("Dos Sicilias" would actually refer to Sicily and Calabria/Lucania/Puglia)
In the book of Daniel the king has a dream about a giant statue with a head of gold, and a body of less precious metals downwards until its feet are of iron mixed with clay. The statue is toppled by a stone which grows into a great mountain that covers the statue. This story is usually interpreted as referring to the historical empires and kingdoms of the Middle East which will eventually be cast down and overshadowed by the kingdom of God. But it seems quite possible to me that it originally referred to the motif of the primeval giant from whose body the various functionaries of humanity came. Even the mountain may derive from the world mountain motif, just as the world tree, Yggdrasill, sprang from Ymir's corpse.
I wasn't aware of this, I shall try and find this now. Thank you for sharing.
The more we learn about the past, the more we have in common, even in using bad ideas.
True.
Morizko could ne an interesting fairytale in this context as it's fairly different from Cinderella. A hardworking girl lives with stepmother and her daughter, step mom hates her and tells father to go and live her in winter forest, he does so, there she tries not to die when Morozko finds her, he freezes her more and asks if she's warm, she says yes, after some tries she gives her more and more stuff, next day father goes to the same place and finds daughter with money and jewelry, while they're coming home dog is barking that she's coming in gold and second daughter won't be married, they come home and step mom asks father to do the same with her daughter, she complains and is rude, so dies of cold, when they're riding home, dog is barking first daughter is gonna be married and second daughter's bones are coming home. Another one is daughter falling in a well and getting to winter realm, there she cleans and makes food and being rewarded, second daughter gets nothing.
Please could you make a video about the horse and the divine twins :) ?
6.00 The change from the Bovine Feminine Earth fertility symbol to the Horse Masculine Warrior symbol is the take over of the matriarchal to the Patricarchical society.
My last name has that evolution from Godbey Godby to Anglo Saxon of Goadby that’s older version of Goad+byr which from my understanding Goad and Gothi were old Geatish founding deity’s and sons of Woden which Gothi is a priestly class as well and a Icelandic legislative term
I'm sure you've already covered this in a video, but what's the connection between mounds and ancient kings? Great info.
I haven't specifically covered this, as there were different motivations for mounds at different time periods and locations. I'll have a ponder on how I would best present this, and so watch this space. And thank you for watching the video, and taking the time to comment.
Very interesting. Is this why most honors (Crown Jewels) are sets of three? A crown (God?), a scepter (state?), and a sword (war?)?
That’s an interesting link, but I think they represent other things as opposed to being aligned with the body or society. But I will have a think about it a bit more. Thank you for watching, and the great question.
"Right" rendered as "rite" in the closed captions is somewhat confusing to a non-native speaker of English. Interesting video. Subscribed.
Thank you!
@@Crecganford Thanks for your reply. I've only recently found your channel, the subject matter is very interesting indeed. If I am not too anal, another thing I find slightly confusing as a non-native speaker is the spelling in the banner of your About page, "Our Ancestor's Stories". Is that modern British spelling (maybe British English could have changed and evolved since my school days), or should it be "Ancestors' Stories"? Again sorry if I am too anal. Good luck with your channel.
8.23 Could Ganna be a corrupt of Gala or Danna, a Gael/Celt Druidess?
Yes please, Divine Twin video!!!
It has been made :)
Damn Tyr looking lit with that fur
Hi-ya, John. For us coffee drinking Americans, do you have any recommendations on what kinds of tea, and what to put in it, are ideal for participating in the discussions here at Crecganford?
I'm a Twinnings English Breakfast kind of person, but many also like Yorkshire Tea. Both are fine, and come in different grades depending on the nuances in your taste buds.
I want to add the fact that the idea of a king having to be unscathed is still alive until the high middle ages. We see this in heroic stories of that time, for example Waltharius, but also in crude politics. When in 1085 the German anti-king Rudolf lost his right hand in battle, Henry IV presented this as prove of his claim to the crown being unlawful. God had taken the hand with which Rudolf had sworn felty to him. This in fact REALLY brought MANY noblemen back to the loyalist party.
An interesting fact, thank you for sharing it.
Your videos must really screw with the fundamentalist religious of the world! LOL! Love them!
Interestingly enough the phoneme a (If I remeber correctly) in Proto indo european only appears in words for injuries and deseases. I had to think about that when hearing about kings and gods being injured.
Have you done any video on the legend of the wounded Fisher King and the grail?
As some one of prussian descent, what is the pagan old prussian lengendary king you speak of? I couldn’t understand when he said it.
5.14 This is the chief warrior Trito, wedding the Goddess, Yemo the Sovereign, to become King.
Yes please talk more about Goddess history and horses as you have mentioned. Though I am more interested in the Goddess idea
Thank you for watching, and yes, it is on my todo list and so it will be here soon(ish)
So would the dismembered horse part in the myth of the Volsi mentioned in the saga of... Olaf, I think, be derived from this early pagan horse ritual?
Yes, I think there is a link here.
I remember reading a novel which suggested that if you were a Roman emperor and lost any part of your body (such as your eyes) you no longer had the divine right to rule.
Exactly, the same European Kings… thank you for watching, and your comment. It is appreciated.
@@Crecganford really? I don't think at least not i the high middle ages, how many kings of England and France were crippled or lost and eye or a limb during wars? And nothing happened to their legitimacy
@@carlosmarquez5901 it was true for some cultures, but not for others
for example, amongst the Irish, it was considered that a man could not be King unless he was entirely whole and without blemish, while in the eastern Roman (Byzantine) empire the blind were not allowed to be emperor, to the point this was sometimes used as a way to disinherit a rival. But on the other hand many other cultures did not hold this belief, especially later kings in the middle ages, think of the blind king of Bohemia who fought, horse tied to two of his knights, at Agincourt, or king Baldwin the leper of Jerusalem.
(I personally don't know if the prohibition against blind emperors existed in classical Rome, but cannot off the top of my head name a blind emperor, certainly not one who was deliberately blinded by someone)
Amazing video thank you, I wish to request a topic. Which is about Ymir. I wasn't able to find a video about him. Specifically, was he seen in a negative or positive light? On one hand, his body created the world, but on the other, he was killed by the Gods. Would the Norse pagans have prayed to him?
Ymir is also the Lord of the Dead, as well as being used to make the world, and I have made videos on both of these. Go to my TH-cam page and have a browse, I’m sure they’ll be plenty there you will find interesting.
The King, as the representative of all classes, is the divine unification of opposites. He creates the order of class collaboration out of the chaos of class conflict
The land and the king are one.... hmmm reminds me of some of the Arthurian stories. Le mort d'Author I believe?? Not quite sure. I don't remember Arthur being injured, but I do remember the downfall of Camelot and the whole Lancelot and quinevere love triangle. Also, lancelot du lac possibly related to the lady of the lake..? Just a thought.
Yes, that is exactly right. The motif is seen in the Authurian stories.
You can also look at the Fisher King of Arthurian legend.
Yes! I do want to talk about Arthur one day.
@@Crecganford Arthur is also shown as king being directly linked to the prosperity of the land, in Geoffrey of Monmouth’s Arthurian legends Arthur is wounded when he loses his queen and is betrayed by his strongest knight and falls ill at which point the land is subjected to plague and famine from which only the grail may restore both Arthur and the land
@@tedclare5504 Yes, that's right. I have mentioned him being associated with this briefly in a couple of my videos over the last few months. And do want to explore this more.
Among folktale circles, the Cinderella motif is 550A, with 550B being the sort of the king who wanted to marry his daughter. In English, it's often called "Rushcape" (and was my favourite story as a child). Some say it's related to King Lear, but would the perception of a king commiting incest be enough of a moral failing to remove him from kingship, as happened in most versions of the story? The Egyptians, for example, thought nothing of incestuous dynastic marriages. Or, if the king were divine, would not his daughter be divine also? Perhaps the idea of marrying her was a way of maintaining a hold on power? Would really like to see your take on this.
I’m aware it is 510 in the ATU index, what index do you use? Just so I understand this further? Many thanks for commenting
@@Crecganford sorry, it is 510. I don't know how I got that confused; may I plead a migraine? I often end up making mistakes like that whilst in the middle of an attack, and as the weather's been unsettled, that's my story.
Egyptian kings usually didn't marry their daughters, more likely their sisters and in a lot of cases not even that. The only exceptions Echnaton, Amenophis III and Ramses II had more practical reasons. The high ranking queens had a role in the roya
l cult System but in these times there were too many of those in certain temples. So you needed more royal blooded queens.
About the relations between a queen or sometimes king and a male horse... couldn't this be related to Queen Pasiphaë in the story or Icarus/Daedalus? Not a male horse, but a male cow instead.
I think the cow and horse were interchangeable in ritual for a period of time, and so there maybe something in that.
Hi, i am just curious about the name of the channel .. what does crecganford mean ?
It is the name of a town mention in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles in 476CE, and I was born and raised there... although not in 476! :) But it has much history and one day I may make a video about it. Thank you for watching and a great question :)
@@Crecganford that is quite nice and interesting.. looking forward to the video:)
It's interesting that in some sense the earth and all upon it are a single living organism, Also an interesting image is the world tree. I heard Roger Penrose give an interview where he described each new universe having something of the old present something like growth rings of a tree. There were other parallels as well. I'm not suggesting anything mystical just something I find interesting. Definite Parallels between Krishna and The Christos. The name bringer of light or some such, both sons of God, that would be interesting to go into.
I meant the world being directly wrought from a man and physically man being wrought from the earth
Yes, I may try and do something on that in the future. Thank you for watching, and for leaving a comment.
There have been found those Neanderthal bones where the person have been very disabled. Maybe the story is so old? Maybe he had other way of serving his community. When you sacrifice some part of your body, you get other gifts as a compensation (like Odin). And maybe if it was ordained by the god (as everything was back then), the god took something and gave abilities? To mark you as God's own sacrificial lamb? Maybe they believed that you gained wisdom or magical powers in exchange, because it is true that when you lose part of your body's function you do gain much insight through hardship. Look at the disabled people in these days; it is hard not to admire their endurance and survival through many difficulties in life. Maybe people very long time ago, did not view disabled people so grossly negatively than we do now? They did not have an idea of Christian Sin etc. so the disability was not God's punishment.
Your mention of how King Haile Sellassie I was regarded was very much oversimplified. Love your program, though.
6:07
Why did I need to hear that while eating my breakfast?
I do hope you weren't eating sausages... my apologies
@@Crecganford fortunately it was just porridge. No need to apologise like, was actually kinda funny
It’s almost like reminding those original rulers that despite being fit initially, they could lose the confidence of their people by changing in some way (power=corruption) and thus lose their roles as leaders.
Thank you so much for your support. And yes, when I first read these descriptions of the king losing power, it all made so much sense. But it is also why they kept it in the family, which itself caused many issues.
One of my favorite stories always seems sorta Cinderellaish to me on purpose is when Sigmund slays the dragon that watches over Brunhildr the tip of his spear is left in the dragon so that despite any claims that could not be proven false, the true hero would receive his due reward when the tip of the spear matches a hilt. I have speculated that this ultimate story was made up of all the best archetypes at the time, Cinderalla being one (it's Germanic/Grimm brothers right?) and I wondered why it was even put in that saga in the first place, but this theory sheds some light, perhaps a true king was seen as rightful, yet humble, when the missing part finds its way back where it belonged. Perhaps, this was essential to marrying a princess.
I hadn't thought of it like that, that is very interesting. Thank you for sharing, and for watching.
@@Crecganford I guess the youtube algorithm predicted correctly, almost every search leads me to one of your incredibly insightful videos. Thank YOU for making them. They are really really informative!
“..as long as you set aside the psychological trauma inflicted on the animals transformed into people and back again” - 🤣🤣🤣
Never considered that, it would be traumatic lol. Great angle
Cinderella as a Fisher along story is a great insight. Did you figure that out or someone else? Love. She’s a Fisher Queen, then.
I do have some slight scepticism about what you proposed about these set of mythemes going back to an older myth predating the Proto-indoeuropean period and going back into the palaeolithic age on the basis of this mytheme appearing in the Americas and Africa. Could this be stretching beyond what could confidently be deduced from evidence a little bit?
Could it be simpler to propose that as opposed to a theory of origin from a common mythematic (palaeolithic) source, it's just natural fundamental human tendency for people in different (pre-mordern, non-western) ages & cultures to associate the physical injury of a royal figure with diminished potency (or even legitimacy) of religio-political power?
Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything else in the video, I'm just tentatively sceptical of the proposal that the mythic motif of bodily injury (and subsequent surmounting/overcoming of the (associated) challenge/problem) to a (royal) hero goes back to a common myth that predates by far the Proto-Indo-European source & goes back to Palaeolithic-age mytheme.
Why are you sceptical? That could lead us further! N.B. the motif of the healing touch of the king / injury of the body of the king is not pre-modern for the ‚western‘ world. It was relevant up to the enlightenment - at least. The power play between the Pope and the Emperors of the medieval, early modern Holy Roman Empire is also much logical given an ‚original’ precedence of the priest over the king.
This pattern, when appearng with other narratives, is because it was spread at the last ice age, when there was a land bridge between Asia and the Americas. If this wasn't the case then the story would have migrated across in the 15th century CE, and this seems even more unlikely. But it is a theory as we can't prove it for definite, but to me it seems the most likely theory.
@@Crecganford my point is that it is very reasonable to propose that something is of a common Proto-Indo-European source. But to go even further back in time to propose that something found in the Americas & Africa is of common origin, as opposed independent origins in multiple places as a human reflex might just maybe perhaps be mistaken.
But I may be wrong as you have better understanding of these aspects of anthropology
@@tsemayekekema2918 Yes, a good point, and I understand that having similar stories does not automatically mean they are from the same source, and so it's best if I talk about this in a future video, as the losing of a body part is also very much connected to the tripartite social standing of the individual and I never explained this link either. So I will address these in the future with specific citations to the work that supports this. Thank you for the comments, it makes me make better videos.
@@Crecganford alright thanks
Yaghmoracen king of Zianids dynasty
“We obtained worldly goods and power by our swords and not by this lineage. As for its usefulness in the other world, it depends on God alone.
12.30 There is obviously a conflict here. The Gods can lose body parts and remain gods but kings can not. This should at least confirm that Kings, made up from Chief Warrior can never really become a God. Only the the passge of time and societies changed these rules.
That is a good observation, and perhaps it shows gods aren't made from Yemo or the equivalent.
If a king could be disqualified by not only physical maiming, but spiritual maiming as well, wouldn't that be the seed for the importance of morals and ethics?
This was the case for Iranian and Persian culture with the Xanerah, which was spiritual. There is a story in these texts called the flight of Xanerah, I think it is in Yast 19, and shows this happening.
Is there a good video about the historiography of the indoeuropeans? How did people came to their discovery and how did our perception and understanding of them went over time?
Well if you watch all my videos, you might get that…
@@Crecganford else, isn't there a unique video about it? I'm really interested how historians came to theorize about it and the debates and reactions it generated throughout recent history, how our modern understanding of them evolved over time. That kind of stuff.
@@Game_Hero I don’t think I have a video that meets what you’re looking for, but I’d like to think my videos, along with their references, would probably help you on your journey of finding out more.
@@Crecganford Surely. Why not make a dedicated video about it as well? Wouldn't it make a good subject?
💞🙏🏻
The king is the embodiment of the spiritual law and truth.
Left Field question Were you born a story teller or did you trip into it?
I really don't consider myself a storyteller, not when compared to those who do it professionally, but I do like teaching and I hope that comes across.
I thought "the king is dead long live the king" was about the idea that the instant the king dies, the position is instantly filled with the next in line.
The king physical and the king politic.
⚪️👋 Hi Crecganford , I was just recently researching this . That the Original Cinderella Story is frome Germany . ??
Starting out with the Disneyland Castle supposedly based on a Castle in Germany ? Then trying to figure out if Pumpkins are indigenous to Germany before 1500s France ( Recipe Cookbooks then showing in Europe ) , And supposedly Pumpkins are Originally frome Mexico ?? Gyana ( ‘ ) , “ A Princess frome Germany “ mentioned here on this video . ( Gwyneveire , Gaynamede ( * , ?? ‘ , ‘ ) coming to mind too ) .
And My German Friend , Her FamiLy Very German , She told Me there were Storylines After Cinderella Married The Prince | King . And that Her FamiLy was upset with Her . Something like that . I dont know if She was kidding or not , It didnt seem Like It . She said there were definite German Cinderella Story and Stories ( 2016 Uk I asked about then ) . Her Family belongings in German Museum , She also told Me Her Grandmother was a Witch { a Good One , I think She said ‘ … } . I told Her I Am Not ~ Gnostic Christian
💖YinYang , Humanitarian Basically 😋🤍💗Thank You⚪️
The story with the princess motif maybe, but its origins, as presented here, as much older. And she sounds like a very interesting character. Thank you for sharing.
@@Crecganford ,
⚪️👋 Yes , I believe It goes back to
The Beginning Of ALLLLL Beginnings ~ Nuclei , Cosmic Egg , LoveMagical 🤍⚪️ Father Nature , Mother Nature And God The Son , The Sun | First Cognitive Consciousness . Natures FamiLy Beginning . Pre Primordial , ALLLL White Irridescence Nuclei ~ merged to the Blue Canvas Universe Beginnings .
Cinderella Is 💖YinYang ( Involves ALLLLL Absolutions ~ Natures Masculine And Feminine PrincipaLs | PrincipLe 🤍⚪️ ) Reality Check Now . Creations , Natures , Natural Law , Story , Reality (s) , Gods Kingdom ! There Is OnLy One : )
Not hoedumb , or hoedom , the d , s Ehp Sra H*** machinE [ as the baseline , Homebase of Live ? ] . Only Good Quantum . No means No ! WorLd is WorLd - NO D * ! = Freedom { The Treasure Of ALLL } Us , Humanity ( Naturalist , Humane , Of Heart , Care And Thy Done ! 🤍
NOT hoed Down Ever , 666 Evered !
ForeverInfinity🤍💗💙🌌🤍⚪️😊🙌
We are ALLLL frome The same PLace , not of black ether mindz nodez .
Not Of : Flesh KJV “ , Word , Care , Coin , Breath , Blood , Spirit , Nature , Nuclei FamiLy | Nuclear FamiLy Humanity | Heavens , Providence , Firmament , Heart 💖💗♥️💜💙🤍⚪️
Have A 😊🙌 Day Restored And Reclaimed ! : )))))))))))))) ⚪️
It's no coincidence some of our best Generals were born and raised on family farms and have a good, strong grasp on human philosophy, all while mastering the path of the warrior.
The western world has its share of righteous kings, so when did we all decide that none of them should be allowed to lead civilization as a whole?
When kings became trapped in court life and no longer risked their living in the conflicts they ordered, nor traveled the land and saw something actually different from their palaces. When they became "god kings" and not actual rulers connected to the people they ruled.
Ours in particular were never meant to become permanent fixtures, but the spirit that gravitates to power still managed to find a way. Hell, the number of U.S. politicians who are older than Sidious when they drop dead in office is gradually increasing.
Was "Manus" also known as the "Hands of Fate"? 😂
There is a hypothesis of Nimrode as the indo-european king?
Only by Christians.
Hamlet's Mill was good for me
Is the unicorn, that is used in the royal coat of arms, an echo of the idea that in order to reach favoured ideals, a king must have sacred union with divine feminine aspect?
That is a great question, and one I've never considered, but I like your idea. will do some research to find out.
@@Crecganford Looking forward to what you discover!
@@Crecganford
ANAT -INANNA - ASTARTE -ATHENA -NIKE - etc, etc,
The name change with language changes.
You might want to watch a video on u tube about - hitler not liking the new art - modern from 1937 Germany. The movie about it is on u tube now.
It shows a Calvery type cross - with an unusual Being who looks - oddly - like an Avatar - from the Avatar movie. But not blue.
How did they have such an idea in 1937?
Did Princess Diana say there were lizards?
Maybe another species not friends with the Master on the Cross who KNEW many things? Which He called = the dark - snakes - vipers?
It is quite interesting. Where did the = IDEA = of the Avatar movie come from? hmmm....
And where did the Master GO - when HE went UP? Was HE blue?
There are children born on Earth today - a tribe maybe in South America - they have large blue swatches of skin on their backs when born - until they outgrow the blue color as teenagers.
It has astounded science - as you can imagine. BLUE - mind you.
So, are we then Star Seeds?
Everything is CONNECTED = everything.
Are we being schooled by people do WHO KNOW ALL? to wake us up? softly...
As a side note they found that hitler - drew disney cartoon character during the war.
Disney and hitler - oddly - look somewhat alike. About the same age.
The Bavarian mountain retreat hitler used fit exactly the same outline as the disney mansion in the hollywood - [hellywood ] hills - down to the inch. Takes some research to find all this. Of course - disney made MOVIES! Are WE - in or watching a movie?
do the helly wood freaks drink the blood of the Saints?
my oh my - lions, tigers and bears!
Chrome ADRENO ?
There is one web site that has ALL the pictures of such things.
NOW - were They ORDERED TO TELL US THE TRUTH?
Allowed To hide from us - BUT in plain site?
What kind of scam is being run?
Did they EVER LEAVE here?
I love how you THINK outside the box and study.
You are one in many millions - ask many QUESTIONS - BRAVO fine SIR !!! Thank you.
BE THERE DRAGONS?
Dragons in the AVATAR movie too!
What a coincidence!
OH
the GODDESS IO- too!
A moon on JUPITER is IO.
Kept close to Jupiter - but small.
and Jupiter is what GOD?
THE RAM = reverse = MAR - as in MARDUK. KUD - cud? or what in URDU language.
The Lamb = RACHEL = Rach El. The LOST Lamb?
99 are ok but find the ONE LOST.
all is connected! ALL!
Happy hunting great Warrior of OLD!
Selassie’s situation reminds me of Brian lol.
So it was for JC
Yes, you could argue that point, he made a sacrifice.