To try to sell his products at a premium price level, you need to be transparent and show your Research and Development and be able to explain it well.
There isn't a school that could pay Gale enough to just be a teacher - all of that knowledge has a lot of expense behind it, a lot of investment into it, and carries a big price tag
He said he makes more power when he slowed down the charger. I'd like to see him go direct drive on the super charger and compare it with the 33% over.
@@wantu2much I feel (take that as you will) that it would then negate the effects gained by having a blower... IE low end boost off the line which a monster truck needs, why they used the supercharger to begin with. I really think that he's going to build some sort of manifold that goes supercharger first to turbo, to make a bastard compound reverse of what he's doing right now, turbos don't care if the airs already denser, the supercharger does. My assumption is because of the way they work all the compression is from the screws where as the compression on a turbo is from the housing acting like a venturi to speed up the air not trying to crush it together but literally shoving 10 pounds of proverbial shit into a 5 pound bag.
Gale Banks even said it himself. The screw type supercharger is trying to compress air that has already been compressed. Slowing down the supercharger gives it more time to compress the turbo outlet pressure, and more time to get more air through. The turbo drive pressure is high because the supercharger is causing a lot of resistance. Pumps (turbos) only create flow - resistance to that flow creates pressure. Adding a bypass would give you the snappy response (which Gale isn't measuring anymore), and the high RPM horsepower gains because there's less turbine drive pressure now.
I am thinking the same thing, that the positive displacement blower is loosing it seal, making heat, and requiring more power to drive it at the higher inlet density. I am wondering why there isn’t a bypass involved here so the blower gives it the instant kick but the turbos come in on song and we have the ride of the Valkyries playing. On air compressors to save HP they close the inlet to run the compressors in a vacuum sort of speak to unload the motor and reduce power consumption. I think this strategy could work here too if the blower will take it! Imagine the power spike in the curve when the turbos engage and then we shed the power consumed by compressing the air by closing the inlet to the blower . Under this strategy we can run the blower at 100% over because we’re going to quit using it about 3000 rpm so we’d have a monster torque curve at the bottom and HP for days up top... just what a monster truck needs 😉
I work in the steel industry as a foreman. The owner of our plant is EXACTLY like gale he started it 60 years ago and is also a walking encyclopedia. Unbelievable resource to have guys like this for younger guys like me coming up in any "trade"....edit he will also tear your ass up if you get on some stupid shit like gale.
It does make sense to me, that putting compressed air through the supercharger would make it work harder. Backing off the drive on the supercharger meant less losses on the crankshaft, making more power at the flywheel. I had always wondered if putting already compressed air through the blower would hurt things and this confirmed that. This, is freaking epic! Can not wait to see what the next iteration is!
You mustn't putting the compressed air into the Supercharger you can also bypass it. Than the Supercharger will be hitting in the lower rpm range and the turbs will kick in at a higher rpm when the Supercharger isn't very effective anymore
It's crazy. He's straight giving all the info. I don't think I've ever seen someone so willing to share that type of info, they usually like to act like it's voodoo magic/trade secret stuff. This is my first time on this channel btw. Lol
Yep, like Gale made clear in the Killing a Duramax series, when the turbine drive pressure exceeds intake manifold pressure, something is wrong. Clutch off and bypass the supercharger when the turbo boost exceeds manifold pressure. The engine would do better without the supercharger when the turbos are lit. The main piece of data I was hoping to see is the supercharger inlet pressure, and that was not in the data shown in this video. Is the supercharger actually adding any boost? If the supercharger inlet pressure is higher than manifold pressure, the turbo is basically trying to drive the supercharger, which is a very inefficient airmotor. The wastegates that are being used as supercharger bypasses should probably be upsized to not present any restriction to the turbo compressor. With the supercharger drive ratio reduced, the engine will no longer make 640 HP when the turbos are asleep, so linear throttle response for freestyle maneuvers will be compromised. The engine only needs the 1200 hp for donuts during the freestyle competition. I think the key is to run the super and turbo in parallel, and work out the control system to smoothly hand off to the turbo, and clutch off the supercharger to make the big number. Or take off the supercharger altogether and put compressed air tanks in the truck to spool the turbos during periods of transient throttling. Or maybe a Hyperbar system to keep the turbos spooled all the time. Just brainstorming here.
Its weird to me that he is a fucking genius, but doesn't understand running a jet of dense air, which is effectively a solid at in FI applications, into another solid wall of air, or attempting to force it around a fucking retarded shaped atmosphere cavitator, is going to create flow issues. He needs to speak with an aeronautical engineer, or study jet engines. ICE are functionally retarded when it comes to power production, and fundamentally flawed. air in, air out. the better you do this, the more you make, and you are going to hit serious plateaus when you try to make that air run through a fucking maze.
You are very right, in my eyes. But it would take a helluva compressed air tank to last 5 mins of freestyle. Blower needs to stay to initiate spool and throttle response. The wastegates bypassing the blower should be upsized, with a lighter spring. Ideally, there would be an electronic clutch on the blower pulley, which would cut it from driving, and stop it from wasting energy when at high boost from the turbos. But that’s a whole different reliability issue, and less than linear throttle response through the rpm range. Scrap that. But he’s trying to match the throttle response of a 540 Chevy big block, and just the turbos won’t do. And he WILL NOT make it blow black smoke. It’s against his philosophy. He’ll figure something out.
@@travisgilbertson9946 Root the blower into the Turbo's, couple the blower drive via magnet clutch, spare one of the two intercoolers. Add a Bypass/Throttle valve parallel to the Blower to Bypass/regulate blower boost. Reliability issues? VW did this 16 years ago and had no issues. I'm sure Gale could figure something out.
@@thetruth5232 ok, it makes more sense putting it that way, but I’m not sure about the linear torque and instant throttle response at that point. Blower has to pressurize a bunch of piping, turbos and inter coolers before there’s boost. But maybe it could be made to work.
@@dirtysouthtv2209 10:57 You will see he is only making 21 PSI boost with the supercharger. After the turbos go higher than 21 PSI the supercharger is parasitic.
Gale is the absolute king of duramax engines and engineering. Nobody knows more than he and his exceptional team. I trust every word he speaks on the subject.
You guys are wizards, and you speak my language in terms of safe efficient high power density diesel engines. Thx for showing and explaining the parameters.
I remember asking for theories on a forum somewhere around a decade ago, as to why you ran a blower into the turbos on Mike Ryans Freightliner. As best I knew, blowers moved a fixed amount of air per revolution, so having the turbos down stream could do no more than reduce parasitic losses, at the cost of drive pressure. Definitely keen to see the next episode of this!
This is my educated guess as to what's going on: The plenum in front of the twin screws is normaly tuned to allow efficient filling of the voids between the screw blades. This is similar in concept to how intake runner length for naturally aspirated engines influences volumetric efficiency. Air rushing in acts like a pulse, the best performance can be had when you carefully time the arrival of that pulse with opening of the intake valve. Now in this case there is a substantial water-to-air intercooler right in front of the blower intake, so the plenum volume will be different compared to NA operation and instead of the 1.2 kg/m³ (0.075 lb/ft³) you're now feeding the blower something with twice the mass. It's likely that the pulse-dynamics will be way different. If my guess is correct, your power gain by going to 33% blower RPM is the direct result of an improved volumetric efficiency in screw filling over the set-up with 11.000 RPM.
Hopefully Banks going through all this shows people how difficult twin charging is to really make work and that boost doesn’t just magically add up. So many people think it’s got to be crazy power if something has a blower and turbos.
I love that he isn't afraid to show us some of the things that don't work as expected during R&D. It doesn't always happen right the first time. Keep trying new things and good things will happen.
The turbo limited class guys run really low afr. It hits a peak egt around 13>1 depending on boost. Going richer and smokier will make more power and lower egts. It doesn't make. Sense but it is how it works.
Hi Gale. I think the work you do is incredible and I love R&D. I am in industrial refrigeration industry so pressure density and flow is my bread and butter. We have done a huge amount of R&D with screw compressor’s over the last 8 years with the absorbed power and efficiency and the gas density. We found the biggest gains in the discharge port of the screws as intake density increases we would open up the discharge port more on the female rotor side to prevent over compression of the air absorb excessive power.
Thank you mr banks for all the time and effort that you put into your products and videos. I also really appreciate learning all this new information. The videos are always fun and very informative Thanks again. Thanks for making a Playlist on this im finally catching up.💯💯👍
These videos should be required classes for anyone under the age of 35 who just picked up their first diesel truck! I've had a NA gas V8 C10 since high school but I still love these videos. Modern legend, this guy...
You mean like GM did with the locomotive 2 stroke engines? They did a mechanically driven centrifugal turbo surpercharger with an over running clutch so that when exhaust gasses were enough, it ran like a regular turbo.
@@JKCullens that is what VW did with the 1300 cc GTI Golf engine with 170 hp. Small blower for response... The decouple it when enough exhaust gases for turbo....
Finished my 2 year degree Got AED foundation certified on 12.4.2020. Going for associates degrees in diesel technology 4 classes to go!! Hoping to walk in June 2021 !!
4:28 Anyone else see that arcing from the lower bank of cylinders. Looked like it was coming from a sensor lead? Don't see the same on the top bank so maybe a shielding issue?
Good eyes guys, that solves that one. I couldn't imagine Gale missing something like that, was sure it would have shown on the sensor, but a bit of tape flapping, yeah, who cares. Lol
Man I wish I had you as a mentor or a teacher during my apprenticeship, aside from being so knowledgeable, I can hang on to ur every word and my mind wanders all the time, so that's saying something 👌❤️ Thanks bud, I'll be tuning in for more.
I'm looking forward to seeing how you plumb the supercharger first and the turbos second. It seems to me that the twin screw supercharger is analogous to a worm gear: it only works in one direction. Trying to blow through it does not efficiently turn the input shaft, so in effect it doesn't freewheel once it becomes unloaded. I'm not sure drawing through it will make it any better, but I guess we're going to find out!
My thirst for knowledge is screaming for that next episode! I understand everything here but I want to know what the supercharger is doing with that dense air and why running it slower makes more power!
It's also a motor on a dyno stand with no regard for space. Also yes it is very finely tuned to run at it's optimal best, but to have this be the benchmark is just idiotic
@@Magucci13 Here you have one in operation by Gale Banks himself, not a drop of smoke and it sounds fantastic and that was in 2010 th-cam.com/video/dKc7d73yOSs/w-d-xo.html
Hello, my comment will likely going to get lost around the sea of commets, but i hope i can help a bit on this stuff 1-Compressors, don't create pressure, neither density, they create airflow, pressure is just resistance to flow, a Whipple compresses the air inside the compressor housing and a blower inside the intake manifold, a centrifugal comp, on the diffuser of the compressor housing, and as such density is a derivative of it when you coold down the compressed air. 2-A blower what basically does is increasing the engine size, a 5 Liter 4 stroke engine with a 1:1 5 liter Whipple, will have a boost pressure of 15PSI (15PSI atm + 15PSI of the whipple), and you will end with a "virtual" 10 liter 4 stroke engine. 3-A Supercharger can reduce fuel consumption but for different reasons, if the rest of the engine is tuned to work with the supercharger, Compressing air takes a fuck ton of power, compressing air from 1 to 20 bar in one go is inefficient, is better if you compress it, cool it, and then compress it more, that's what basically a supercharger does, it divides and intercools the compressing stage of the engine, but if you don't reduce the Compression ratio is going to use a lot of fuel, a series twin charged diesel, must have a Compression ratio between 14:1 and 16:1, less and the fuel will not ignite well, more and the compression strokes requires a lot of power 4-Remember that pressure and therefore the density once is cool down is just airflow+resistance, that log manifold is being restrictive leaving a lot of backpressure in the engine, backpressure that the supercharger has to fight against, scavening on a turbo engine is important, not as much as in a NA one, but the Exhaust gas backpressure is a force to be contempt with, so much that pressure wave superchargers used it to directly compress the intake. the more and better quality air you got into the cylinders the more efficient the combustion and the more power you can make, if the Duramax has an agressive valve timing overlap between intake a exhaust, *YOU NEED TO HAVE HEADERS, for scavenging otherwise you are fighting against back pressure.* 5-Superchargers have a so-called efficiency window, at a certain RPM, and at certain boost pressure they work the most efficient, getting close to 80% efficiency, and other ones they are around 60% efficient, in that efficicieny window a supercharger is more efficient than the engine compression strokes and you can reduce compression ratio to increase power by eliminating a bit the compression work of the engine itself 6-Twin charging in series, feeding a blower/whipple with a turbo indeed multiplies the pressure ratio, but that doesn't tell you the whole story, you have to take in mind that pressure= airflow x resistance, but if the mass flow at the supercharger inlet remains, the intake air pressure/density will be the same, and the mass rate will remain the same, independently of the supercharger drive ratio, remember, compressors create airflow, not pressure. 7-The ideal way of twin charging an engine would be to do things rather simple, if the Duramax is a 6.7 Liter, with a 5 Liter whipple you need 1.34 drive ratio on the supercharger relative to the crankshaft to get to the 2:1 compression ratio, (remember in a 4 stroke the real displacement is half of the measured displacement), so you get a virtual 13.4L, and then you can boost that without worrying too much. if the compression ratio on that Duramax is 16:1 then things should go rather well. 8-If you don't wanna to overcomplicate your life with serial twin charging is just easier to do it in parallel, making both, superchargers and turbocharger work in parallel feeding the intake manifold at the same time, rather than making the turbo feed the intake, you can get possibly more efficiency in series, but is hard, anyway, you will need a supercharger decouple if you use parallel twincharging. 9-The ideal efficiency spots of twin screw superchargers tends to be around 1.7 to 1.9 pressure ratios, in a serial twin charging set up most likely you don't wanna crank the supercharget drive ratio to get as much boost as you wan't but just enough to eliminate turbo lag, and help the compression of the engine, the turbo will do the rest. 10- The reason why you get more power with less boost is because the airflow to the supercharger is the same, but the compression ratio is less, and the discharge temperature is lower, and as such, the air gets to the cylinder at less temperature, and the engine has to work less work to compress that air. 11- The turbo will make the engine have a higher backpressure in the exhaust manifold, the supercharger and the engine will work harder to make the exhaust get out of the cylinders if it has a valve overlap, and the supercharger is acting at the same time as a plug for the turbo, making more pressure at its intake, the turbo has to work harder to produce the same airflow and at higher pressure, adding a wastegate, or even better, using headers alongside would solve many of those problems.
What the data say is chuck away that supercharger, however reason for that SC is response, so would hv been nice to see a rev/second gain chart, and slap on a clutch to disengage upto a certain boost level.
I hope the follow up for this is sooner then later! This last update took so long! My theory is the screw blower trying to compress the compressed air from teh turbo is generating so much heat that there is no positive gain once you reach a certain point. I've heard of these sort of problem on a bunch o f the screw blowers like this whipple. ON the 03/04 Mustang Cobra when people boost that car they keep the OEM supercharger. ITs a roots style blower from Eaton and it is more compatible with the turbos. Better gains when keeping that blower then going with a whipple or Kenne bell like most people would upgrade to. WE NEED AN UP DATE SOONER THAN LATER GALE! THANKS FOR ALL THE KNOWLEDGE AND COOL VIDS!!! :D
Considering the design of that screw blower, i mostly would consider that a low presure pump, and most likley the pressure i escaping around the veins of the blower du to shaft deflection during higher boost.
If you do turbos first blower 2nd, the blower is able to "blow through" the turbos' compressor blades both providing low down boost to the engine instantly AND assisting the turbos in spooling faster. Come up with diverter valves/2ndary air filters and a "clutch'd" supercharger pulley... and you could essentially cut-out blower from the system and turn-off the supercharger drive in the turbo's upper boost ranges thus eliminating parasitic loss! Something to think about, only an early '99-00 2.3 Kompressor's Eaton M62 blower has a clutch'd supercharger pulley like that I know of.
If I remember right it’s plumbed so the turbos are basically feeding both sides of the blower. The theory being the air will follow the least resistance and feed the blower till it’s a restriction and then bypass it. But, they found that feeding the blower dense air increases the power it takes to drive it while not really bypassing it much.
@@NBSV1 yea looked at the by-pass in part 10 kinda small. what are the effects of an electo magnetic clutch on a screw type since it doesn't pulse like a roots? and get a way to get a larger pipe in below the super.
@@Thorcc I would imagine the main problem is getting a clutch setup that can handle the power without being way to big and bulky. I've seen setups on small superchargers with basically an A/C clutch. But at that point you're only looking at a few hp to driver the blower. This thing is probably pulling 100hp by the time you'd want to disconnect it. I would think ideally you'd let the supercharger pull in ambient air and feed the turbos to below the supercharger. Then if it wouldn't harm the blower have a way to block the intake so it basically stalls it and you won't have as much power drain.
@@NBSV1 sounds about right. I even think it was mentioned early in this series that the normal order is super then turbo and this was an experiment. Also i believe the real electric turbos( The 48+volt ones ) have a similar set up of complex valving for changing air source and destination before the normal turbo.
The Audi S5 TDI is a twin-charged engine. If memory serves me correct, supercharger is 1st, turbocharger 2nd. It was also electric, and it's primary intent was reducing/eradicating turbo lag. Being electric, the potential control over that component is far greater than vacuum and mechanical linkages however. Curious for the next video. Seems like a clutched blower with a screw bypass might be needed if turbos are contributing the most work done, but improving diesel responsiveness is a goal.
seems like the supercharger cant moves enough high-pressure air through it. and increasing the rpm creates more parasitic losses than airflow. so why not put the supercharger blowing into the turbos. It's only moving low-pressure air, the way it's designed, and the turbos don't care about the higher pressure. didn't you guys do a racing truck like this before?
That's what they did on the Banks Freightliner Pikes Peak truck as well as a few other tricks. The coolers are useful to get the air going into the cylinders to be as dense as possible
@@timothybayliss6680 that’s one big selling point, but the biggest reason is because John Deere sells a 300 hp tractor that is mechanically identically it’s 400 hp model. Only difference is the tuning, the sticker on the hood and tens of thousands of dollars.
@@Jaxon-iu6vb not just JD, there's a lot of engines like this in all kinds of markets. Hell look at the duramax, powrerstroke and cummins in the big three medium duty trucks and they're making less power than their 3500 brethren.
I remember seeing the turbos you guys had on this and thinking they were small. This confirms it for me. That drive pressure is crazy. You need a pressure ratio of about 2.2 to get the boost you're getting and you have almost 60psi in the hot pipes. I couldn't understand why the turbos had such a large compressor vs turbine. A bigger pair of turbine housings or turbine wheels and housings will not hurt lag, it will cut that drive pressure immensely. It should be well under boost pressure.
My theory is that it takes HP to turn the Blower. So spinning it up with already compressed air from the turbos at high RPM is lowering HP. Slowing down the Blower frees up HP and forces the air to go around it through the bypass lines. Mr. Banks is also using a blower that was designed to compress ambient air on one side and produce PSI on the other. So the blower isn't in it's optimum operating range that it was designed for. The helical screws probably need to be designed to accept positive pressure from the inlet side?
I learned engineering in the US. The mixture of units is something I'm used to, but it can get confusing some times. What the hell is a poundal, and how does it compare to a slug?
@@mattio79 Procharger is a brand, what you are referring to is called a centrifugal supercharger and it will suffer the same issues that screw blowers do. They don't do well with high pressure and on a diesel everything is about more pressure more flow. You don't see 10,000hp cars running anything but a BIG roots blower. :-) Gale will get it figured out, in the end the spool performance could be muted with nitrous :D
Another point worth noting, turbos and centrifugal compressors are variable displacement pump... the screw compressor is a fixed displacement pump. So for a given density, the screw compressor at some RPM can only move so much volume. Where the variable displacement can be 'blown through' which as I hear as I'm typing this, Gale makes this realization too at the end.
@@maccoman71852 A big and small combo should nearly eliminate the lag and get high boost numbers. I have a stock turbo on an 05 ram. It boost to 40 psi nearly instantly. I got rid of the back pressure, installed his air horn and a tune to achieve this. Max boost is 48, but its hard to get it there. 35 to 40 all day long with out even trying.
@@jasunsmith9136 for towing or street driving sure, but the throttle response they use for a monster truck is much quicker than even that. Also if you watch his other videos you'll see why he isn't chasing a boost #.
i could have sworn when you showed the turbo piping set up that you had a by-pass already installed for the very purpose of when either boost from the turbo or temp was over superchargers limits part 10.
and this is why my atmospheric turbine is first in the exhaust, dyno testing will show you the efficiency and the truth. I gained 12% just on swapping the order! this is why i love banks, he test everything instead of assuming like some tuners... most.
What are the pulsations of the blower doing to the resonance of the intake? Would it be better to run a larger blower at engine speed, and sync it in phase?
Not sure if this is possible, and if the valves flow enough air, but could you plumb up a bypass valve where once there is a set amount of backpressure (into) the supercharger, than the valve bleeds the pressure around the S/C and straight into the intake? Perhaps to fatten up the curve early on with the S/C at lower exhaust CFMs but once the turbos start singing, the S/C could bypass most of the boost and only further compress a small portion from what came from the turbos? I wonder if spinning down the whipple even more would help, possibly at high turbo boost all the whipple is doing is impeding flow and at the minimum, by driving it slower, it will throw less heat into the air? And then of course like someone said below, perhaps forgoing an internally-compressed S/C and just use one of the Eaton 4-lobe roots blowers? That first pull with just the supercharger into those dump tubes did sound really unique, even if it's just from the mics in the dyno cell.
Gale your on the right track. It's like trying to put 10lbs into an 8lb bag. Just like an industrial heating system it has to be balanced or you'll fight yourself. The supercharger has to be ballanced with the turbos. Now here's the bad news. The curves of what the turbos will put out will not match what the charger can inhale... the only thing you can do now is optimize it and then compare spool times to a compound turbo. If I had to guess compound will make more power but the cost will be tenths of a second more. Edit From reading the comments there might be some alternatives supercharger to turbo (maybe pro charger in compound to a turbocharger?). Another option bypass valves under the supercharger from the turbos so when the differential is less than x% gain they kick in.
When reading speed/ fuel consumption charts on boat test review articles i see a common fuel consumption number for Diesels. Most Diesel boats us 5 +/- gph per 100 hp at full throttle. So a boat with twin 500 hp Diesels ( 1000 hp total ) will consume about 50 gph. Twin 500 hp gasoline engines will burn about 80 gph at full throttle. Supercharged gas engines eat more because they have to develop power to spin the blower and they tend to be set to run rich for safety. At one point Gale showed a bsfc number of over .600! That is a bad number for a gasoline engine. Diesels typically are under a bsfc number less then .400
Did opened that turbo bypass valve on supercharger or did you run all the air throught the charger? I think the number will totally different when that is opened..
If the egt is going up, would that point to a exhaust restriction? Would a larger exhaust housing on the turbo (not impeller but housing) improve flow?
I am looking this in fluid dynamics... What if the turbos are blowing way to much air inside the blower. As the air is being push inside the blower is scattering the air inside and heating it up by the friction by the whipple. So when the air finally gets force inside the engine, only hot less dense air is going inside.instead if cold dense air...maybe opening up the waste gate a bit from the turbos may help?
Now THAT is a dyno run! That was the cleanest fucking compound charged diesel I have ever seen in my life...and it was damn near half a minute! If you were at full throttle for half a minute, that's MORE than a standing mile run right there! Would it be possible, in theory, to now design a screw blower that's specifically designed for compound charge setups?
Give us more of this series! Either that or more like killing a duramax!! Great stuff, I learned so much and it's really piqued my interest into motors!!
If I'm understanding the data and what you have done, it seems that the blower is restricting the air inlet flow being after the turbos, as if its too small of inlet to the manifold causing back pressureon the compressor wheel. wouldn't it be better to compound a small turbo for fast spool on low end and bigger for top end? I know that none of the big manufacturers are doing this anymore, if I recall Cat and Navistar were the only ones to do this on larger engines but with terrible reliability results. I know cummins just reduced the size of the turbo for their large engines X15 for better power on the low end. I am very curious for next episode.
So the blower is absolutely a restriction and sacrifice to overall flow in return for instant volume of air for throttle response. A well thought out compound turbo setup can have minimal lag but if you look at monster trucks and how they drive that application won't work. They did use compounds in larger commercial applications however the shortfall there is they also typically require an exhaust brake. Mix that with large boost numbers and yes huge reliability issues result from massive backpressure. This problem can even arise from a single vgt turbo as well.
Thank you for the data rich content, and having the humility to post a video showing things not working out as planned, followed by an explanation as to why. I do wonder if you super could be set up differently knowing that it is a compound boost scenario? Was it used box stock?
Definitely want to see a chart of inter-stage vs manifold pressures. We can see if and when opening the bypass valve would benefit. And an overlay chart of the torque curves, blower vs compound vs slow blower.
Hi Gale . Could you split the turbo into half super charger and the other half under the super charger as a bypass. Ie deul feed with a pressure valve to allow it to bypass. Maybe the super charger may not be copping with the boost from turbochargers.
Looking forward to the next episode. I know you guys at Banks are busy with Lokjaw and the new dyno installation in dyno cell 2. Also it would be good to see the results of a max power run with the Whipple blower and charge air cooler. I think something got overlooked there
It sounds to me that the blower is acting as a restriction to the turbos. I would be curious if you pick up more power by slowing the blower down even more. If so I think why it’s so is because there is more time for the air to get around the screws. I would like to see what would happen by removing the blower and seeing what the power is at the same boost. Also how a compound turbo set up would run. Please correct me if I am wrong but the blower is no good for this application. Granted I am bias to my turbos. To me blowers are great for low end and the whine but that’s about it.
It seems like the supercharger is just restricting the air flow at higher rpm ranges. I’m not sure if this would work but have a crank driven centrifugal supercharger that feeds charge air to the turbos. With the option to bypass supercharger at high rpm.
Gale, here's my thoughts here, and I agree it's backwards. As the current configuration sits, I'd think the following MAY work better, but you've likely tested it. 1) Pre-Whipple, Post-Turbo W2A Intercooler. 2) Whipple somewhere between 17.5-25% Drive, not 33%. Those IATs are killing MAD. 3) Larger Turbine Housings or upgrading to a larger turbine wheel as EMAP is still slightly out of hand (although the goal is still responsive). I'd love to hear what you think. Catch you over on Facebook and thank you for sharing all of this with us!
Gale is 78 years old and not afraid of using the latest tech to build crazy engines. That’s awesome!
Too bad Joe Biden isn't as sharp at 78 as Gale Banks!
@@sglamb17 lmao facts
The knowledge in this man's pinky would put many people to shame.
@@sglamb17we would have gotten thru Covid a hell of a lot faster is Gale was in charge 😂
gale is someone who I can tell has always been fascinated with the latest tech available
I can’t believe Gale puts these on the internet for free. What a generous guy. An absolute legend, just spitting truth and wisdom.
To try to sell his products at a premium price level, you need to be transparent and show your Research and Development and be able to explain it well.
I think he wants to teach anyone willing to listen, so his knowledge can live on the next generations. Which is really awesome. 👌
I wish I could’ve had a shop teacher like Gale!!!
Mee too
No kidding but imagine the tuition cost on that class!
There isn't a school that could pay Gale enough to just be a teacher - all of that knowledge has a lot of expense behind it, a lot of investment into it, and carries a big price tag
@@RyTrapp0 yep, that's my point
@@stevegreene4880 so worth it.
Man, I have been waiting a while on part 14 🤯 don’t leave us hanging guys 🤨
Same thing with killing a Duramax. Easily the best series in TH-cam and they’re brutal cliff hangers.
Sounds like the supercharger is just in the way at higher RPM.
This is why some make the bypass... you supercharge at low rpm and turbo in the higher range.
He said he makes more power when he slowed down the charger. I'd like to see him go direct drive on the super charger and compare it with the 33% over.
@@wantu2much I feel (take that as you will) that it would then negate the effects gained by having a blower... IE low end boost off the line which a monster truck needs, why they used the supercharger to begin with.
I really think that he's going to build some sort of manifold that goes supercharger first to turbo, to make a bastard compound reverse of what he's doing right now, turbos don't care if the airs already denser, the supercharger does. My assumption is because of the way they work all the compression is from the screws where as the compression on a turbo is from the housing acting like a venturi to speed up the air not trying to crush it together but literally shoving 10 pounds of proverbial shit into a 5 pound bag.
Gale Banks even said it himself. The screw type supercharger is trying to compress air that has already been compressed. Slowing down the supercharger gives it more time to compress the turbo outlet pressure, and more time to get more air through. The turbo drive pressure is high because the supercharger is causing a lot of resistance. Pumps (turbos) only create flow - resistance to that flow creates pressure. Adding a bypass would give you the snappy response (which Gale isn't measuring anymore), and the high RPM horsepower gains because there's less turbine drive pressure now.
I am thinking the same thing, that the positive displacement blower is loosing it seal, making heat, and requiring more power to drive it at the higher inlet density. I am wondering why there isn’t a bypass involved here so the blower gives it the instant kick but the turbos come in on song and we have the ride of the Valkyries playing. On air compressors to save HP they close the inlet to run the compressors in a vacuum sort of speak to unload the motor and reduce power consumption. I think this strategy could work here too if the blower will take it! Imagine the power spike in the curve when the turbos engage and then we shed the power consumed by compressing the air by closing the inlet to the blower . Under this strategy we can run the blower at 100% over because we’re going to quit using it about 3000 rpm so we’d have a monster torque curve at the bottom and HP for days up top... just what a monster truck needs 😉
This man has so much knowledge to give. Thank you for every step forward you make in the name of performance.
I would pay money to just stand in the corner of that shop
I work in the steel industry as a foreman. The owner of our plant is EXACTLY like gale he started it 60 years ago and is also a walking encyclopedia. Unbelievable resource to have guys like this for younger guys like me coming up in any "trade"....edit he will also tear your ass up if you get on some stupid shit like gale.
Facts.
It does make sense to me, that putting compressed air through the supercharger would make it work harder. Backing off the drive on the supercharger meant less losses on the crankshaft, making more power at the flywheel. I had always wondered if putting already compressed air through the blower would hurt things and this confirmed that. This, is freaking epic! Can not wait to see what the next iteration is!
You mustn't putting the compressed air into the Supercharger you can also bypass it. Than the Supercharger will be hitting in the lower rpm range and the turbs will kick in at a higher rpm when the Supercharger isn't very effective anymore
The long wait! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and excitement.
It's crazy. He's straight giving all the info. I don't think I've ever seen someone so willing to share that type of info, they usually like to act like it's voodoo magic/trade secret stuff. This is my first time on this channel btw. Lol
Yep, like Gale made clear in the Killing a Duramax series, when the turbine drive pressure exceeds intake manifold pressure, something is wrong. Clutch off and bypass the supercharger when the turbo boost exceeds manifold pressure. The engine would do better without the supercharger when the turbos are lit.
The main piece of data I was hoping to see is the supercharger inlet pressure, and that was not in the data shown in this video. Is the supercharger actually adding any boost? If the supercharger inlet pressure is higher than manifold pressure, the turbo is basically trying to drive the supercharger, which is a very inefficient airmotor. The wastegates that are being used as supercharger bypasses should probably be upsized to not present any restriction to the turbo compressor.
With the supercharger drive ratio reduced, the engine will no longer make 640 HP when the turbos are asleep, so linear throttle response for freestyle maneuvers will be compromised. The engine only needs the 1200 hp for donuts during the freestyle competition. I think the key is to run the super and turbo in parallel, and work out the control system to smoothly hand off to the turbo, and clutch off the supercharger to make the big number. Or take off the supercharger altogether and put compressed air tanks in the truck to spool the turbos during periods of transient throttling. Or maybe a Hyperbar system to keep the turbos spooled all the time. Just brainstorming here.
You are 100 percent right. Too much boost on the back end and a supercharger doesn’t work well that way
Its weird to me that he is a fucking genius, but doesn't understand running a jet of dense air, which is effectively a solid at in FI applications, into another solid wall of air, or attempting to force it around a fucking retarded shaped atmosphere cavitator, is going to create flow issues. He needs to speak with an aeronautical engineer, or study jet engines. ICE are functionally retarded when it comes to power production, and fundamentally flawed. air in, air out. the better you do this, the more you make, and you are going to hit serious plateaus when you try to make that air run through a fucking maze.
You are very right, in my eyes. But it would take a helluva compressed air tank to last 5 mins of freestyle. Blower needs to stay to initiate spool and throttle response. The wastegates bypassing the blower should be upsized, with a lighter spring. Ideally, there would be an electronic clutch on the blower pulley, which would cut it from driving, and stop it from wasting energy when at high boost from the turbos. But that’s a whole different reliability issue, and less than linear throttle response through the rpm range. Scrap that. But he’s trying to match the throttle response of a 540 Chevy big block, and just the turbos won’t do. And he WILL NOT make it blow black smoke. It’s against his philosophy. He’ll figure something out.
@@travisgilbertson9946 Root the blower into the Turbo's, couple the blower drive via magnet clutch, spare one of the two intercoolers. Add a Bypass/Throttle valve parallel to the Blower to Bypass/regulate blower boost. Reliability issues? VW did this 16 years ago and had no issues. I'm sure Gale could figure something out.
@@thetruth5232 ok, it makes more sense putting it that way, but I’m not sure about the linear torque and instant throttle response at that point. Blower has to pressurize a bunch of piping, turbos and inter coolers before there’s boost. But maybe it could be made to work.
The twin screws are the choke point in that particular setup.
You can tune it to some degree by adjusting the screw speed, but you’re very limited.
@@dirtysouthtv2209 10:57 You will see he is only making 21 PSI boost with the supercharger. After the turbos go higher than 21 PSI the supercharger is parasitic.
5:55 "Remember this was originally a monster truck program, it's now a Mad Max" -Gale Banks
Witnessed!!! This is badass
Hoonigan, sit down and take notes! Absolute madlad! God bless Gale Banks!
Basically saying "totally ditch the blower"!
Damn shots fired lol... how dare you scumbag the scumbags hahaha
I’m
Gale is the absolute king of duramax engines and engineering.
Nobody knows more than he and his exceptional team.
I trust every word he speaks on the subject.
He has to be the coolest and the eldest voice ive heard say sd card.
You guys are wizards, and you speak my language in terms of safe efficient high power density diesel engines. Thx for showing and explaining the parameters.
I remember asking for theories on a forum somewhere around a decade ago, as to why you ran a blower into the turbos on Mike Ryans Freightliner. As best I knew, blowers moved a fixed amount of air per revolution, so having the turbos down stream could do no more than reduce parasitic losses, at the cost of drive pressure. Definitely keen to see the next episode of this!
Switch back to the roots blower? Maybe they like to be fed denser air than the whipple?
I love that, i don’t want to paint the walls with parts, but let’s bang this Turkey! I’ll keep that one in my head forever!
Lord a pray you keep gale here as long as possible. So he can do what he do best.
This is my educated guess as to what's going on: The plenum in front of the twin screws is normaly tuned to allow efficient filling of the voids between the screw blades. This is similar in concept to how intake runner length for naturally aspirated engines influences volumetric efficiency. Air rushing in acts like a pulse, the best performance can be had when you carefully time the arrival of that pulse with opening of the intake valve.
Now in this case there is a substantial water-to-air intercooler right in front of the blower intake, so the plenum volume will be different compared to NA operation and instead of the 1.2 kg/m³ (0.075 lb/ft³) you're now feeding the blower something with twice the mass. It's likely that the pulse-dynamics will be way different.
If my guess is correct, your power gain by going to 33% blower RPM is the direct result of an improved volumetric efficiency in screw filling over the set-up with 11.000 RPM.
Always keeping us thinking Mr. Banks! Love watching and learning! God bless!
Hopefully Banks going through all this shows people how difficult twin charging is to really make work and that boost doesn’t just magically add up. So many people think it’s got to be crazy power if something has a blower and turbos.
I love that he isn't afraid to show us some of the things that don't work as expected during R&D. It doesn't always happen right the first time. Keep trying new things and good things will happen.
19:02 Proof that running a diesel rich doesn't lower egt
everyone knew diesels were backwards compared to gassers. more fuel = more power = more egt
15.1 isn't rich enough to cool the EGT's down, Try below 13:1
but, i still tune cars to 16:1 no point going lower on a street car.
The turbo limited class guys run really low afr. It hits a peak egt around 13>1 depending on boost. Going richer and smokier will make more power and lower egts. It doesn't make. Sense but it is how it works.
@@timothybayliss6680 completely correct!
@@aleks138 true, but like gas engines the amount of power a diesel produces is still governed by how much air you can get into the engine
Thanks again Mr Banks. I wish I could spend a few weeks with you working on engines in Dyno Cell #1. I really appreciate the in depth explanations.
Great to see this series back :)
great video and very educational
Hi Gale.
I think the work you do is incredible and I love R&D. I am in industrial refrigeration industry so pressure density and flow is my bread and butter.
We have done a huge amount of R&D with screw compressor’s over the last 8 years with the absorbed power and efficiency and the gas density. We found the biggest gains in the discharge port of the screws as intake density increases we would open up the discharge port more on the female rotor side to prevent over compression of the air absorb excessive power.
Need more content please, bunch of data junkies here.
The data makes the content... everything else is wasted fuel and smoke :)
Yes, agreed! The abundance of data and analysis really makes these stand out. Not everyone enjoys this must detail, but I love it.
Thank you mr banks for all the time and effort that you put into your products and videos. I also really appreciate learning all this new information. The videos are always fun and very informative
Thanks again. Thanks for making a Playlist on this im finally catching up.💯💯👍
I'm all eyeballs and ears waiting for the next episode.
Where is it
These videos should be required classes for anyone under the age of 35 who just picked up their first diesel truck! I've had a NA gas V8 C10 since high school but I still love these videos. Modern legend, this guy...
Been waiting for this episode for months! Nice
Never have I been so exited about "The next episode" here at youtube. This is the best channel here at TH-cam by a mile.
if you could decouple and bypass the super when at WOT past the boost threshold limit you'll probably see a 250-300hp boost
You mean like GM did with the locomotive 2 stroke engines? They did a mechanically driven centrifugal turbo surpercharger with an over running clutch so that when exhaust gasses were enough, it ran like a regular turbo.
@@kleetus92 no like exactly like I said
@@JKCullens lol, that's what gm did!
@@JKCullens that is what VW did with the 1300 cc GTI Golf engine with 170 hp. Small blower for response... The decouple it when enough exhaust gases for turbo....
@@Baard2000 see comment above.
Finished my 2 year degree
Got AED foundation certified on 12.4.2020.
Going for associates degrees in diesel technology 4 classes to go!! Hoping to walk in June 2021 !!
4:28 Anyone else see that arcing from the lower bank of cylinders. Looked like it was coming from a sensor lead? Don't see the same on the top bank so maybe a shielding issue?
Strange must be
Looks like some electrical tape waving around, distorting shop lights reflection.
@@claterpillar1 yeah it is at 3:39 you can see if flapping around
Good eyes guys, that solves that one. I couldn't imagine Gale missing something like that, was sure it would have shown on the sensor, but a bit of tape flapping, yeah, who cares. Lol
Man I wish I had you as a mentor or a teacher during my apprenticeship, aside from being so knowledgeable, I can hang on to ur every word and my mind wanders all the time, so that's saying something 👌❤️
Thanks bud, I'll be tuning in for more.
I'm looking forward to seeing how you plumb the supercharger first and the turbos second. It seems to me that the twin screw supercharger is analogous to a worm gear: it only works in one direction. Trying to blow through it does not efficiently turn the input shaft, so in effect it doesn't freewheel once it becomes unloaded. I'm not sure drawing through it will make it any better, but I guess we're going to find out!
My thirst for knowledge is screaming for that next episode! I understand everything here but I want to know what the supercharger is doing with that dense air and why running it slower makes more power!
This is diesel tuning, not like those idiots who only send boost and fuel like crazy
It's also a motor on a dyno stand with no regard for space. Also yes it is very finely tuned to run at it's optimal best, but to have this be the benchmark is just idiotic
@@Magucci13 Here you have one in operation by Gale Banks himself, not a drop of smoke and it sounds fantastic and that was in 2010 th-cam.com/video/dKc7d73yOSs/w-d-xo.html
@@Franco_FC that's uh. Not a truck body....🤦♂️🤦♂️
@@Magucci13 That is precisely why I sent it, it is much more limited than a truck, perfectly viable to put it on a truck ...
@@Franco_FC you're joking right? Also did he win anything? I have seen his sled pull and dirt drag trucks. They sucked
Hello, my comment will likely going to get lost around the sea of commets, but i hope i can help a bit on this stuff
1-Compressors, don't create pressure, neither density, they create airflow, pressure is just resistance to flow, a Whipple compresses the air inside the compressor housing and a blower inside the intake manifold, a centrifugal comp, on the diffuser of the compressor housing, and as such density is a derivative of it when you coold down the compressed air.
2-A blower what basically does is increasing the engine size, a 5 Liter 4 stroke engine with a 1:1 5 liter Whipple, will have a boost pressure of 15PSI (15PSI atm + 15PSI of the whipple), and you will end with a "virtual" 10 liter 4 stroke engine.
3-A Supercharger can reduce fuel consumption but for different reasons, if the rest of the engine is tuned to work with the supercharger, Compressing air takes a fuck ton of power, compressing air from 1 to 20 bar in one go is inefficient, is better if you compress it, cool it, and then compress it more, that's what basically a supercharger does, it divides and intercools the compressing stage of the engine, but if you don't reduce the Compression ratio is going to use a lot of fuel, a series twin charged diesel, must have a Compression ratio between 14:1 and 16:1, less and the fuel will not ignite well, more and the compression strokes requires a lot of power
4-Remember that pressure and therefore the density once is cool down is just airflow+resistance, that log manifold is being restrictive leaving a lot of backpressure in the engine, backpressure that the supercharger has to fight against, scavening on a turbo engine is important, not as much as in a NA one, but the Exhaust gas backpressure is a force to be contempt with, so much that pressure wave superchargers used it to directly compress the intake. the more and better quality air you got into the cylinders the more efficient the combustion and the more power you can make, if the Duramax has an agressive valve timing overlap between intake a exhaust, *YOU NEED TO HAVE HEADERS, for scavenging otherwise you are fighting against back pressure.*
5-Superchargers have a so-called efficiency window, at a certain RPM, and at certain boost pressure they work the most efficient, getting close to 80% efficiency, and other ones they are around 60% efficient, in that efficicieny window a supercharger is more efficient than the engine compression strokes and you can reduce compression ratio to increase power by eliminating a bit the compression work of the engine itself
6-Twin charging in series, feeding a blower/whipple with a turbo indeed multiplies the pressure ratio, but that doesn't tell you the whole story, you have to take in mind that pressure= airflow x resistance, but if the mass flow at the supercharger inlet remains, the intake air pressure/density will be the same, and the mass rate will remain the same, independently of the supercharger drive ratio, remember, compressors create airflow, not pressure.
7-The ideal way of twin charging an engine would be to do things rather simple, if the Duramax is a 6.7 Liter, with a 5 Liter whipple you need 1.34 drive ratio on the supercharger relative to the crankshaft to get to the 2:1 compression ratio, (remember in a 4 stroke the real displacement is half of the measured displacement), so you get a virtual 13.4L, and then you can boost that without worrying too much. if the compression ratio on that Duramax is 16:1 then things should go rather well.
8-If you don't wanna to overcomplicate your life with serial twin charging is just easier to do it in parallel, making both, superchargers and turbocharger work in parallel feeding the intake manifold at the same time, rather than making the turbo feed the intake, you can get possibly more efficiency in series, but is hard, anyway, you will need a supercharger decouple if you use parallel twincharging.
9-The ideal efficiency spots of twin screw superchargers tends to be around 1.7 to 1.9 pressure ratios, in a serial twin charging set up most likely you don't wanna crank the supercharget drive ratio to get as much boost as you wan't but just enough to eliminate turbo lag, and help the compression of the engine, the turbo will do the rest.
10- The reason why you get more power with less boost is because the airflow to the supercharger is the same, but the compression ratio is less, and the discharge temperature is lower, and as such, the air gets to the cylinder at less temperature, and the engine has to work less work to compress that air.
11- The turbo will make the engine have a higher backpressure in the exhaust manifold, the supercharger and the engine will work harder to make the exhaust get out of the cylinders if it has a valve overlap, and the supercharger is acting at the same time as a plug for the turbo, making more pressure at its intake, the turbo has to work harder to produce the same airflow and at higher pressure, adding a wastegate, or even better, using headers alongside would solve many of those problems.
I’ve understood most of what you’ve said conceptually before, but this really breaks it down. Thanks for posting!
What the data say is chuck away that supercharger, however reason for that SC is response, so would hv been nice to see a rev/second gain chart, and slap on a clutch to disengage upto a certain boost level.
I hope the follow up for this is sooner then later! This last update took so long! My theory is the screw blower trying to compress the compressed air from teh turbo is generating so much heat that there is no positive gain once you reach a certain point. I've heard of these sort of problem on a bunch o f the screw blowers like this whipple. ON the 03/04 Mustang Cobra when people boost that car they keep the OEM supercharger. ITs a roots style blower from Eaton and it is more compatible with the turbos. Better gains when keeping that blower then going with a whipple or Kenne bell like most people would upgrade to.
WE NEED AN UP DATE SOONER THAN LATER GALE! THANKS FOR ALL THE KNOWLEDGE AND COOL VIDS!!! :D
You should look at the Detroit Diesel 8v 92 silver I think they use a bypass on the blower to get the horsepower
This might be the way to do it, bypass the blower with an adjustable pressure valve so the turbos spool up and take over when they can...
@@persistentwind as Lancia Delta S4 did in the '80s (gasoline engine turbo+supercharger)
Considering the design of that screw blower, i mostly would consider that a low presure pump, and most likley the pressure i escaping around the veins of the blower du to shaft deflection during higher boost.
This guy is amazing, I hope hes healthy. We need him around
Well hes not wearing a mask in this video so He's not only mentally healthy but physically.
If you do turbos first blower 2nd, the blower is able to "blow through" the turbos' compressor blades both providing low down boost to the engine instantly AND assisting the turbos in spooling faster. Come up with diverter valves/2ndary air filters and a "clutch'd" supercharger pulley... and you could essentially cut-out blower from the system and turn-off the supercharger drive in the turbo's upper boost ranges thus eliminating parasitic loss! Something to think about, only an early '99-00 2.3 Kompressor's Eaton M62 blower has a clutch'd supercharger pulley like that I know of.
Could you blow the turbo pressure in under the blower to improve efficiency?
If I remember right it’s plumbed so the turbos are basically feeding both sides of the blower. The theory being the air will follow the least resistance and feed the blower till it’s a restriction and then bypass it.
But, they found that feeding the blower dense air increases the power it takes to drive it while not really bypassing it much.
If you came in under you'll likely see the blower have some serious issues as its fighting to keep In a delta it's not designed for.
@@NBSV1 yea looked at the by-pass in part 10 kinda small. what are the effects of an electo magnetic clutch on a screw type since it doesn't pulse like a roots? and get a way to get a larger pipe in below the super.
@@Thorcc I would imagine the main problem is getting a clutch setup that can handle the power without being way to big and bulky. I've seen setups on small superchargers with basically an A/C clutch. But at that point you're only looking at a few hp to driver the blower. This thing is probably pulling 100hp by the time you'd want to disconnect it.
I would think ideally you'd let the supercharger pull in ambient air and feed the turbos to below the supercharger. Then if it wouldn't harm the blower have a way to block the intake so it basically stalls it and you won't have as much power drain.
@@NBSV1 sounds about right. I even think it was mentioned early in this series that the normal order is super then turbo and this was an experiment.
Also i believe the real electric turbos( The 48+volt ones ) have a similar set up of complex valving for changing air source and destination before the normal turbo.
The Audi S5 TDI is a twin-charged engine. If memory serves me correct, supercharger is 1st, turbocharger 2nd. It was also electric, and it's primary intent was reducing/eradicating turbo lag. Being electric, the potential control over that component is far greater than vacuum and mechanical linkages however.
Curious for the next video. Seems like a clutched blower with a screw bypass might be needed if turbos are contributing the most work done, but improving diesel responsiveness is a goal.
seems like the supercharger cant moves enough high-pressure air through it. and increasing the rpm creates more parasitic losses than airflow. so why not put the supercharger blowing into the turbos. It's only moving low-pressure air, the way it's designed, and the turbos don't care about the higher pressure.
didn't you guys do a racing truck like this before?
This makes sense but what confuses me is "Wouldn't you need to bypass the supercharger once the turbos require more air then the blower can process?"
Pro charger in a compound setup maybe?
Gale is so smart i can’t believe he didn’t see it coming oh well🤷🏻♂️
@@BIGDADDYFRESHx in reality this is probably the second time he's learned / hit this problem! I find myself doing that more and more these days...
Been thinking about what to do with the screw supercharger, and what if the Whipple fed in to the turbos rather than dumping into the air cooler?
That's what they did on the Banks Freightliner Pikes Peak truck as well as a few other tricks. The coolers are useful to get the air going into the cylinders to be as dense as possible
Banks should get into the agricultural tuning market. It is getting to be a bigger and bigger industry.
Guys are starting to look for reflashes that can save them fuel. If guys can save $100 a week fueling their machines they will try it.
@@timothybayliss6680 that’s one big selling point, but the biggest reason is because John Deere sells a 300 hp tractor that is mechanically identically it’s 400 hp model. Only difference is the tuning, the sticker on the hood and tens of thousands of dollars.
@@Jaxon-iu6vb not just JD, there's a lot of engines like this in all kinds of markets. Hell look at the duramax, powrerstroke and cummins in the big three medium duty trucks and they're making less power than their 3500 brethren.
@@BlackHawkBallistic I understand that almost every engine manufacturer does this. I was just using Deere as an example.
I remember seeing the turbos you guys had on this and thinking they were small. This confirms it for me. That drive pressure is crazy. You need a pressure ratio of about 2.2 to get the boost you're getting and you have almost 60psi in the hot pipes. I couldn't understand why the turbos had such a large compressor vs turbine. A bigger pair of turbine housings or turbine wheels and housings will not hurt lag, it will cut that drive pressure immensely. It should be well under boost pressure.
That sounds insane at 5k rpm!
Gale, please keep posting your video clips. I consider you the "Dali Llama" of diesel engines.
I want to see Gale and Casey get together and make a 1200hp diesel that gets 100+mpg. Let the electric car people chew on that crow meat for a bit.
I’d love to see a good ol tried and true 3 turbo setup
Its twin turbo
@@parkersposts No Shit, he said he'd like to see a tried and true TRIPLE Turbo Set-up.
My theory is that it takes HP to turn the Blower. So spinning it up with already compressed air from the turbos at high RPM is lowering HP. Slowing down the Blower frees up HP and forces the air to go around it through the bypass lines. Mr. Banks is also using a blower that was designed to compress ambient air on one side and produce PSI on the other. So the blower isn't in it's optimum operating range that it was designed for. The helical screws probably need to be designed to accept positive pressure from the inlet side?
I'm lost.. so y'all telling me I just can't throw in a blower on my truck and put in 91 octane for some cheap thrills.. I gatta do math now 🤯
No silly its diesel ,ctane not octane.dont put gas in a diesel.
@@tomrose6292 all I heard was... It puts the lotion on its skin lol
You totally can.....but for how long will depend on all them maths
I love how he connects all the data. It all has to work in harmony and how he explains it.
damn i love these videos but as an engineer from over the pond, the lack of SI units is frustrating. pounds per cubic bald eagle is painful... :)
I learned engineering in the US. The mixture of units is something I'm used to, but it can get confusing some times. What the hell is a poundal, and how does it compare to a slug?
😆
I just found this channel and I couldnt be happier
Love to hear this, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss anything.
@@bankspower This is probably the only time I'll be able to say this. Way ahead of you hahaha
ARGHHHH...!!! Worst cliffhanger ever!!!
I'm still patiently waiting for him to kill a Duramax.
Every time I watch his videos I learn something. This guy is a genius.
WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS SERIES???
Do you have a map sensor between the turbos and the whipple to measure pressure ratio there, in addition to underneath whipple?
Imagine now if you took that whipple parasite off that engine
You'd lose all the low end response, which was the reason for having one in the first place
@@hopingforthebest1.9 Maybe he should do a Procharger!
@@mattio79 Procharger is a brand, what you are referring to is called a centrifugal supercharger and it will suffer the same issues that screw blowers do. They don't do well with high pressure and on a diesel everything is about more pressure more flow. You don't see 10,000hp cars running anything but a BIG roots blower. :-) Gale will get it figured out, in the end the spool performance could be muted with nitrous :D
@@TurboVisBits u see more cars running two gtx55’s and nitrous than blowers now
Another point worth noting, turbos and centrifugal compressors are variable displacement pump... the screw compressor is a fixed displacement pump. So for a given density, the screw compressor at some RPM can only move so much volume. Where the variable displacement can be 'blown through' which as I hear as I'm typing this, Gale makes this realization too at the end.
What's up with killing a Duramax series?
They are assembling engines for Oshkosh trucks and are dyno testing each one before they ship them. They only have 2 dyno cells
@@timothybayliss6680 Thanks for the update
Yeah, I’ve been waiting for a long time for that one.
Patience Grasshopper.
Two turning turbos and a lysholm. Wasn't that a song back in the day?😂 Mr. Banks you are awesome! We love the content!👍
Get rid of the blower, or get rid of the turbos and try again. Simplify your build. make it do the same thing with less parts.
Blower adds snap to throttle..driver needs it..turbo adds even more hp but has lag.
Sift thru the vids..Brodozer is the client.
@@maccoman71852 I have nearly no lag in mine.
@@maccoman71852 A big and small combo should nearly eliminate the lag and get high boost numbers. I have a stock turbo on an 05 ram. It boost to 40 psi nearly instantly. I got rid of the back pressure, installed his air horn and a tune to achieve this. Max boost is 48, but its hard to get it there. 35 to 40 all day long with out even trying.
@@jasunsmith9136 for towing or street driving sure, but the throttle response they use for a monster truck is much quicker than even that. Also if you watch his other videos you'll see why he isn't chasing a boost #.
@@ChannelZeroOne do monster trucks have nearly no lag? Or no lag? The space they have and how they drive don't really permit ANY lag at all.
i could have sworn when you showed the turbo piping set up that you had a by-pass already installed for the very purpose of when either boost from the turbo or temp was over superchargers limits
part 10.
and this is why my atmospheric turbine is first in the exhaust, dyno testing will show you the efficiency and the truth. I gained 12% just on swapping the order! this is why i love banks, he test everything instead of assuming like some tuners... most.
Gale is brilliant. Even if you know nothing about engines, tuning, etc. His methodology is spot on!
Slower airspeed = cooler air = denser air = more power
yup that was my thought
What are the pulsations of the blower doing to the resonance of the intake? Would it be better to run a larger blower at engine speed, and sync it in phase?
What the hell indeed!
Not sure if this is possible, and if the valves flow enough air, but could you plumb up a bypass valve where once there is a set amount of backpressure (into) the supercharger, than the valve bleeds the pressure around the S/C and straight into the intake? Perhaps to fatten up the curve early on with the S/C at lower exhaust CFMs but once the turbos start singing, the S/C could bypass most of the boost and only further compress a small portion from what came from the turbos? I wonder if spinning down the whipple even more would help, possibly at high turbo boost all the whipple is doing is impeding flow and at the minimum, by driving it slower, it will throw less heat into the air? And then of course like someone said below, perhaps forgoing an internally-compressed S/C and just use one of the Eaton 4-lobe roots blowers? That first pull with just the supercharger into those dump tubes did sound really unique, even if it's just from the mics in the dyno cell.
Gale your on the right track. It's like trying to put 10lbs into an 8lb bag. Just like an industrial heating system it has to be balanced or you'll fight yourself. The supercharger has to be ballanced with the turbos. Now here's the bad news. The curves of what the turbos will put out will not match what the charger can inhale... the only thing you can do now is optimize it and then compare spool times to a compound turbo. If I had to guess compound will make more power but the cost will be tenths of a second more. Edit From reading the comments there might be some alternatives supercharger to turbo (maybe pro charger in compound to a turbocharger?). Another option bypass valves under the supercharger from the turbos so when the differential is less than x% gain they kick in.
I would like to see a procharger also!
I like your dyno run ( not just a flash) that is a real dyno run!!
I feel like a better American after listening to Gale's science. Keep up the good work Sir!
When reading speed/ fuel consumption charts on boat test review articles i see a common fuel consumption number for Diesels. Most
Diesel boats us 5 +/- gph per 100 hp at full throttle. So a boat with twin 500 hp
Diesels ( 1000 hp total ) will consume about 50 gph. Twin 500 hp gasoline engines will burn about 80 gph at full throttle. Supercharged gas engines eat more because they have to develop power to spin the blower and they tend to be set to run rich for safety.
At one point Gale showed a bsfc number of over .600! That is a bad number for a gasoline engine. Diesels
typically are under a bsfc number less then .400
Thank you for taking the time to share with us Mr. Banks.
i've got a feeling this guy likes to occasionally build an engine the old school way just for nastalgia's sake. he is just a treat to watch
A torque transducer in the blower pulley would give some neat data. I have seen this done on a cam pulley.
Did opened that turbo bypass valve on supercharger or did you run all the air throught the charger? I think the number will totally different when that is opened..
If the egt is going up, would that point to a exhaust restriction? Would a larger exhaust housing on the turbo (not impeller but housing) improve flow?
I am looking this in fluid dynamics... What if the turbos are blowing way to much air inside the blower. As the air is being push inside the blower is scattering the air inside and heating it up by the friction by the whipple. So when the air finally gets force inside the engine, only hot less dense air is going inside.instead if cold dense air...maybe opening up the waste gate a bit from the turbos may help?
Now THAT is a dyno run! That was the cleanest fucking compound charged diesel I have ever seen in my life...and it was damn near half a minute! If you were at full throttle for half a minute, that's MORE than a standing mile run right there! Would it be possible, in theory, to now design a screw blower that's specifically designed for compound charge setups?
Give us more of this series! Either that or more like killing a duramax!! Great stuff, I learned so much and it's really piqued my interest into motors!!
Can not wait for more progress on this. I have a car with a wipple thinking of adding a big turbo instead of heads and cam
If I'm understanding the data and what you have done, it seems that the blower is restricting the air inlet flow being after the turbos, as if its too small of inlet to the manifold causing back pressureon the compressor wheel. wouldn't it be better to compound a small turbo for fast spool on low end and bigger for top end? I know that none of the big manufacturers are doing this anymore, if I recall Cat and Navistar were the only ones to do this on larger engines but with terrible reliability results. I know cummins just reduced the size of the turbo for their large engines X15 for better power on the low end. I am very curious for next episode.
So the blower is absolutely a restriction and sacrifice to overall flow in return for instant volume of air for throttle response. A well thought out compound turbo setup can have minimal lag but if you look at monster trucks and how they drive that application won't work. They did use compounds in larger commercial applications however the shortfall there is they also typically require an exhaust brake. Mix that with large boost numbers and yes huge reliability issues result from massive backpressure. This problem can even arise from a single vgt turbo as well.
Thank you for the data rich content, and having the humility to post a video showing things not working out as planned, followed by an explanation as to why.
I do wonder if you super could be set up differently knowing that it is a compound boost scenario? Was it used box stock?
Definitely want to see a chart of inter-stage vs manifold pressures. We can see if and when opening the bypass valve would benefit.
And an overlay chart of the torque curves, blower vs compound vs slow blower.
Hi Gale . Could you split the turbo into half super charger and the other half under the super charger as a bypass. Ie deul feed with a pressure valve to allow it to bypass. Maybe the super charger may not be copping with the boost from turbochargers.
Looking forward to the next episode. I know you guys at Banks are busy with Lokjaw and the new dyno installation in dyno cell 2. Also it would be good to see the results of a max power run with the Whipple blower and charge air cooler. I think something got overlooked there
Did they ever continue this project? I was really looking forward to part 14 or 15
It sounds to me that the blower is acting as a restriction to the turbos. I would be curious if you pick up more power by slowing the blower down even more. If so I think why it’s so is because there is more time for the air to get around the screws. I would like to see what would happen by removing the blower and seeing what the power is at the same boost. Also how a compound turbo set up would run. Please correct me if I am wrong but the blower is no good for this application. Granted I am bias to my turbos. To me blowers are great for low end and the whine but that’s about it.
It seems like the supercharger is just restricting the air flow at higher rpm ranges. I’m not sure if this would work but have a crank driven centrifugal supercharger that feeds charge air to the turbos. With the option to bypass supercharger at high rpm.
Gale, here's my thoughts here, and I agree it's backwards. As the current configuration sits, I'd think the following MAY work better, but you've likely tested it. 1) Pre-Whipple, Post-Turbo W2A Intercooler. 2) Whipple somewhere between 17.5-25% Drive, not 33%. Those IATs are killing MAD. 3) Larger Turbine Housings or upgrading to a larger turbine wheel as EMAP is still slightly out of hand (although the goal is still responsive).
I'd love to hear what you think. Catch you over on Facebook and thank you for sharing all of this with us!