Hello! Free League co-founder here, designer of the Year Zero Engine and editor of Vaesen. Thanks for that interesting and entertaining review! We always strive to improve and constructive criticism is always appreciated. That said, there are some things in the review that I'd like to comment on. Firstly, what was to become the "Year Zero Engine" was written about a decade ago, and the principle of "yes but...", or "fail forward," i.e. the idea that no single failed dice roll should block progress of the story, was very much part of the game system philosophy from the very beginning. And it is the case in Vaesen as well (released in 2020) - in fact, this is discussed at some length on page 40 of the core rulebook. Yes, the official adventures do require skill rolls to unlock information in some cases, as we do want knowledge skills to matter in this game (and this is hardly unique for Vaesen). But such information, behind a "dice wall", is, while useful, never essential to proceed with the story - or if it is essential, there are always other ways to gain the same clue. This principle of adventure design, about central clues vs peripheral clues, is discussed at length on pages 176-178 in the core book. I'd be interested to know which adventure you were running where a failed dice roll to gain information completely derailed or blocked the story? Yes, Investigation and Manipulation are important skills, perhaps the most important in the game, but most if not all of the official adventures do offer other challenges as well, using Learning, Stealth, Agility or combat skills. Combat can happen against vaesen, but more often against other humans. As for the players learning about vaesen - I loved your homebrewed compendium with vaesen knowledge! In fact, we encourage players to use the art (and fact) book Vaesen (on which the RPG is based) or other books on folklore in exactly this way - the characters have the Sight and know vaesen after all, and have access to information about them. However, having the players themselves poring over text like this at the table to figure out which vaesen they are up against and how to overcome it can, while fun, be quite time consuming at the table. That's why many of the official adventures also offer a simple Learning roll to unlock the characters' own expertise (but again, failing this roll will not block progress). Yes, many details about the vaesen are left vague or not described at all in the core game book. This is intentional, as the creatures of old folklore could take many forms and can appear in different forms in different adventures. This is not like a bestiary in a traditional fantasy RPG. All that said - while we are very happy with Vaesen and many players out there are enjoying it, we do appreciate the feedback and will consider it carefully if we were to make a second edition of the game. So thank you. :)
To be completely fair i do not agree with many of Quinns criticisms here and think that leaving the game open-ended and needing GM to figure some things out and fill in some gaps is often a better approach than to provide ready-to-go solutions. I believe that makes my Vaesen different to somebody else's and gives game more mystery, while also giving the GM more work, yes, but also more space to make the story their own. First Quinn's review that i strongly disagree with.
So, I am going to jump in on the topic of YZE and fail forward with a story I learned from Magic the Gathering design. In MTG there is a mechanic called ‘Cycling’ which means, you pay X mana, discard the card, and draw a card. Very simple mechanic. Magic then made other cards that sit on the board and say ‘When you discard a card, do X.’ What they found in playtesting is that someone has a card out that says ‘When you discard a card, draw a card’. This player would then look at their hand and activate a card with Cycling, and only draw 1 card from the cycling. They never activated the ability of the second card on the board. Why? Well, one says ‘Cycling’ the other says ‘Discard.’ Pros and regular players are very much informed that Cycling = Discard, but new players would regularly forget or not make the connection in play. There is enough cognitive load going on that the rule they probably heard once a few weeks ago that ‘Cycling includes discarding’ has slipped the mind or been forgotten. The fix? On the permanent card the wording was changed to ‘When you discard, or cycle, a card, do X.’ and now no one misses the trigger! So here is how I apply the lesson to Vaesen. On page 39 we see the rules for Failing (Screenshot below) Firstly, these specific rules do not indicate any kind of fail forward. Alone, that rule block details is Failure = Failure. Now we turn the page, not on the same 2 page spread, and we see the second box attached below, essentially detailing the fail forward mechanic. Note its over the page spread, if you go back to check the dice resolution mechanics in game its not on the same page and ‘Failure’ as a topic is resolved. You will easily miss the box. The I skimmed the book for other references to failure in play and as a mechanic. > …Failing can mean that you have misread the situation, been detected, or appear hostile to the people you are watching > …Usually a failed test simply means that a day has been wasted, though the Game master may allow an enemy to act. > …Failing the test means that you give yourself away to the opposite party and must disclose your player character’s thoughts, feelings, and intentions. > …On failure you are given inaccurate information, attacked, or suffer a Condition. > … If the test fails, she is either hostile or in great need of your help. > … It does not count as an action. If the test fails, you are hit for 1 extra damage. This can be done once per combat encounter. > … If the sneak attack fails you are detected, and your opponent may draw an extra initiative card and pick the best one. > … On failure you become Terrified. Roll a six-sided die to see how many rounds it takes to regain control of yourself. Whether you flee, freeze, faint, or attack is up to you (see the Terrified text box) Once you have regained control you are no longer Terrified. > ...The characters should preferably be able to obtain the central clues without having to rely on die rolls, as failure risks grinding the story to a halt. You get the idea. My thesis is as such: Yes, the sidebar exists, but if you removed the sidebar besides a few references in the clue section there is next to no reference to Fail Forward in the game. Vaesen does not teach or reinforce GM’s or Players to consider failure to allow the story to go on, instead it clearly communicates failure is failure, except for this one sidebar. I would further argue that last example directly contradicts the idea that even on a failed roll you can succeed at a cost, by instead warding you away from a roll entirely. What is to be learned here? Well number one Quinn is wrong. The rules do support fail forward. 100% he is objectively incorrect, but it is more than an understandable mistake because the game does not stand by and reinforce its mechanics consistently. I write my own TTRPG’s and a mechanic I stole from Trinity as something akin to fail forward is Consolation. Fail a roll, get a consolation prize, usually meta mechanic. I made a point that every single time the books I write mention failure, they also say ‘And take Consolation’. Now on a ctrl+F you actually see the word Consolation more than Failure in the book. This way the reader is continuously reminded again and again that there is always a Consolation (Unless it’s a botch but that’s its own thing). The obvious counterpoint here is that players should just fully read the book and learn the rules. I would rather ask for empathy - we make mistakes, and its important to learn how to stop those mistakes happening again. Quinn was incorrect, but TTRPG’s are very complicated games, and GM’s more than anyone have a lot of cognitive load to worry about. It is better to design games into human nature, with regular repletion and reinforcement than against it, then chastise for honest mistakes. Personally, I hope the takeway from this is not to wipe hands, be chuffed that Quinn was wrong, but instead for this to be a learning experience that mechanics such as this need to be more strongly communicated and reinforced if we want to avoid such mistakes happening again.
Appreciate the focus on a problem I have with a lot of RPGs: The developers give you all the fun bits (monsters, special powers, etc.) and then does absolutely nothing to help with the heavy lifting of actually using all those fun bits in practice.
I let my players always host a part of aspect of an adventure, so we all carry the burden and experience the riddle, and increase differences in approaches.
@@sefatsilverlake3816 Mothership's Wardens Operation Manual is a great resource for learning how to run a compelling sci-fi horror session and campaign, and a lot of it is transferable to most adventure/action/horror games.
It really reminds me very pleasantly of an old series about Sci-Fi, Fantasy, comics and related stuff called Prisoners of Gravity, hosted by Rick Green. It had a similar presentation, though it's gimmick was that the host had built as space ship and escaped the earth, crashed into a space station with only an AI for company, and he'd just pirate broadcast his discussions on whatever aspect of the genres (including author interviews) he felt like talking about that week. And, I mean, that show started in the late 80s, so there the period vibe was entirely natural. Somebody else, 30 years later, talking to me about nerdy stuff through a weird framing device including vhs static and the like - and doing it well - just throws me back in the best way.
@Quinns_Quest very few people have. it lasted 5 seasons here in Canada, but I don't think it ever got broadcast anywhere else, and even here, it seems to have flown under a log of people's radar. Some percentage of it is kicking around on TH-cam, because of course it is.
@@Daemonworks Whoa Prisoners of Gravity reference! That's an artifact of a very specific time and specific (though massive) place! I still remember my mind being blown when I realized that PoG was hosted by the guy who played incompetent neighbour Bill on the Red Green Show (and created that show).
@@AdamDrew Yeah, co-creator/co-writer. The Red Green persona was something Steve Smith had been doing for years, but Green was the other half of making that show, mostly behind the scenes. Honestly, everything Rick's worked on was gold, and he's one of those people who's work was the direct inspiration for folks who are a bit better known. Like few people have heard of Four on the Floor, but it was a major influence on Kids in the Hall.
It's so weird to think how the Gumshoe system's revelation of "if you have the appropriate investigation skill, you automatically find a clue, but you can still roll to find MORE clues" hasn't been picked up by other games.
You shouldn't need a skill at all imho. I run CoC describing the visible clues without rolling and if an players asks to search in a specific place or something like that they'll also find it without a roll given enough time. So I try to make rolls come in only if there's some danger or narrow time limit pressing the PC. Rolling for most clues in CoC & even Gumshoe to a degree make systems out of things that people can achieve naturally, which feels kind of unnecessary in the same way that rolling for every action in a dungeon crawl.
@@Burnedcoffee0 Honestly, I disagree. I've helped Mom look for random missing bits (car keys, the lid for something, whatever) and we've both looked through a place, decided "it's not here," searched the rest of the logical area (house for keys, kitchen for lids, etc), and been thoroughly convinced they weren't there. In the case of lids, we've even assumed that Dad had tossed the lid out, *searched the bin*, and then given up, moved on and only found the lid when we were cleaning up in that place we both declared it definitely could not be. If you're talking a clue to supernatural goings-on rather than something that we know definitely physically exists somewhere in an area, you can bet something that's subtle enough will get missed and a person will leave it behind with 100% confidence they had thoroughly checked the place over and found everything. Observation (or perception or whatever a system calls it) is a real life skill, and while it's partly based on the natural quality of one's senses (a blind person won't see a knife's handle sticking out of its hiding place from across the room, for an obvious example), a lot of it has to do with how you mentally process what you see.
I think it's because not a lot of people actually like it in practice. too much to talk about in youtube comments (good discussion topic) but I'd recommend taking a look at The Alexandrian's article on GUMSHOE's approach (about 11 years old at this point). there's a lot to say about it and I think there's a lot of good insight out there in old creaking forums and new modern game design interviews and articles to put perspective on how GUMSHOE's approach effects not only the way the rules of the game are implemented but also the way a story moves and the conversations at the table. IIRC Vaesen clue finding works very similar to GUMSHOE, though I didn't hear Quinn point that out in this video.
Yeah, it is so ingrained in my brain, that I never have my players leave without a vital clue. In this case, I can recommend to read p. 40 in the Vaesen core rule book. It says it right there. (Edited for the correct page number :D )
Robin D Laws writes in his "Adventure" chapbook that Mystery scenarios tend to sell well because of how *hard* they are to write -- the needed amount of internal consistency ups the writing effort. This assessment seems consistent with Quinn's comments on how *hard* it is to run an investigation. The nature of the mystery means the average investigation requires a lot much more preparation than the average "dungeon" scenario.
There’s a perfect book to give to the players for this. It’s called Vaesen: Spirits and Monsters of Scandinavian Folklore. It goes over every creature, but only gives them flavor text, no stats or confirmed weaknesses. The rpg itself is based on this book, which has the same illustrator.
The only problem is that the book is almost the price of Vaesen core book, and quite hard to get. Vaesen could really benefit from a starter set that would include Vaesen hand-outs with only flavour text based on that book, with some dice, castle layout map and have it for a sensible price. It would really help with the issues Quinns mentions.
@@matttheaxolotl5224I mean, you can order it directly from a swedish viking product company (?) which was the very first Google result. It's $40 plus $13 in shipping so that doesn't address the cost, but it seems easy to get. Still, some of that background lore needs to be in the book.
I use the card deck for exactly this. When ever they rummaging through old books trying to figure which Væsen might be at play I hand them a few cards of potential suspects (potentially along with some extra details like weaknesses and so on)
This is such an insightful discussion of the game. I'm absolutely loving everything you've been doing. Thanks for putting so much love and care into each of these videos.
20:00 "If this were a TV show..." Well, it kind of already is. The description of this game could pretty much be describing a prequel spin-off series for the TV show "Grimm" (2011-2017) that had fokelore monsters (Wesen, often pronounced/sounding like "Vessan") hidden among humans, special humans (Grimms) that can see the Wesen for what they are, secret societies, along with history and ancient mysteries between the Wesen and Grimm societies. The show was set in modern-day, but if there was ever a spin-off prequel that went into the "history" between Grimms and Wesen this game would come pretty close to to being exactly that,
@@d3wey81 There's a channel on my digital cable called "Comet" that shows a handful of the old sci-fi shows (X-files, BTVS, Tales from the dark side, SG1)and they've been cycling through Grimm. They start with Season 1, Episode 1 playing 4 episodes each weekday starting at 5pm going through the whole series and then start it all over.
I LOVE Vaesen! Such an evocative game!!! Worth mentioning, the issue of failing important rolls is addressed in the book. If PCs fail an essential role they can still be given the information but will take a condition.
I also printed out a huge dossier of creatures with bits of trivia and keywords associated with them. I went a bit overboard with about a hundred or so of them. But my players loved it. We spent a good half of the investigation with them all gathered around the sheets trying to whittle down the possible culprits according to the clues provided. Free League are missing a trick by not creating something like this. It's a game in and of itself.
Three Clue Rule from The Alexandrian blog (and TH-cam channel, and the So You Want to be a Game Master book) has a great structure for prepping and running investigative adventures, if anyone is interested
Great review, but that hasn't been my experience at all. I leaned heavily into the ideas about failure, conditions, and failing forward as outlined in the core book on pages 30-41. I would set up the conditions and consequences before making the roll and let the idea of failing forward be the guide. My players regularly got into fisticuffs, and sometimes, gun and sword fights with other humans and had to do their level best not to murder people or to be able to explain away that murder when "but there was this giant monster being controlled by him, so we had to kill him, officer" just wouldn't suffice. My players also pushed rolls, a lot, which seriously improved their chances of success while also including a cost. They also leaned on each other for aid and I would have them role play what they were doing and then have THEM roll the dice (instead of just handing it over) so we would know just how the helped the situation. My players find out information about the Vaesen mostly through interactions with the locals. All the PCs are adults and sometimes they might half remember stories from their childhood that also inform them. They also are always on the hunt for books on the occult and folklore that might aid them in their research (adding dice to their pools). I am waiting for the day that they fail a roll while reading one of their books while huddling in a room after a terrifying encounter and fail the roll. They'll get the information, but I'll have one of them accidentally tip a candle onto the book and burn a number of its pages before they are able to put it out. As far as skills go, we used them all. My players often lament that they don't have any points in a particular skill they need at one time. Then again, they have a curious habit of climbing out second and third story windows, sneaking around hotels and taverns at night, eavesdropping on people, kicking down doors, pacifying angry mobs, and a host of other things that have put them in compromising positions. I'm sorry that Quinns had a hard time with the game, but it truly sang for my group. They have loved it so much that we started playing Gen Lab Alpha, the post apocalyptic mutant animal game that uses an earlier version of the Year Zero Engine. I still think this is a great review. Some of the criticism Quinns has goes against the published adventures which do require tweaking here and there. I HIGHLY recommend watching the 1shotreview channel's reviews of a number of published Vaesen adventures. His tweaks help make the adventures easier to run or get you thinking of ways to expand them to work better with your particular group even if you don't do exactly what he does: www.youtube.com/@1ShotJC
Vaesen is the first RPG I bought that I plan to GM based solely on the fact that premise sounds fantastic. After going through the core book I felt a bit overwhelmed though. Having all this special GM-only information but missing lines connecting any of it. As you mention, reading these "secrets" on Vaesen and then feeling puzzled on "how the hell would I even give this very specific information to PCs without simply handing it to them in a convenient book they found back at the castle". Your idea with handing them bestiary pages is actually awesome. My plan is to have them find that convenient "Vaesen" tome in castle's library, but it will be enchanted to only show creatures that PCs have heard about, essentially making it their 19th century Pokedex. And as they figure out more details about each Vaesen or have close-encounters with them, new clues will magically appear on the pages with some words too faded to read. It's a bit convenient but will save me having to figure out why a random NPC would know that they need to hammer nails to tree roots.
Ahaha, the Pokédex is a super fun idea. You could even have it fill up with creatures that brushed past the players or blessed them without them noticing, creating more plot hooks!
@@Quinns_Quest Great idea! I have a sudden urge to give one of the PCs with a particularly nasty dark secret (that's hidden from other players) a terrible nightmare back at the castle, only for them to wake up and see the 80s cliche text appear on the page of Mare: "IT KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE" leaving other PCs puzzled on what that means. Oh joy.
It’s really nice reading/watching a good quality critical review where, despite the concerns that Quinns has, i’m still encouraged to pick up the product because the reviewer has had a fair and balanced discussion on its pros and cons. Ultimately, i’m the final arbiter in what games I want to play, and it’s bloody fantastic having a show that understands that and gives me what I should know up front. Thanks Quinns. Doing great work.
@@massimocole9689 That was when Quinns was suddenly replaced by "Kwinnz" for several episodes with no explanation right? Never did find out what was up with that. Wikipedia has nothing.
Currently running Vaesen - I've taken to giving the players a selection of Vaesen cards at the start of the session, including the right one but also a few red herrings. It's helped to allow the players to go "ooh! OOH it's that one!!!" instead of me just asking for a roll
Of I’m not mistaken it is explicitly stated in the rules that primary clues should never be locked behind skill checks (i think its under the investigation skill). Also the rules state that there are three strategies the gm can use while handling failure: consequences, states and demands. Alas failures shouldn’t be doors shutting rather prices to pay while still progressing the story (page 40 in Swedish edition).
The "redacted" versions of statblocks being handed out to players is absolutely genius. I'm going to use that in all of my tabletop games, not just investigation. It's a great way of players sounding really cool and smart without everyone at the table knowing that the GM literally only just told the player "what you know." Then you get the very boring "I relay that to the party."
Seconded! The other benefit is the players get to SEE the AMAZING ART in these monster books that they never read. Gonna do this in my Symbaroum campaign
I really like your fix of giving the characters a monster manual, it was sort of what I was thinking needed to happen. Investigation TTRPGs need a starting point of information about the topic they are investigating. Murder mysteries give info dumps about the murder location or victim. But people understand that a gun or knife are used in a murder, unlike which version of supernatural being is being used in this rpg. And the ability to go back and review the book is not to be disregarded, it is important when trying to gather the right information in a sea of information.
@@FFLegion it kinda does, this whole rpg is based on and set in the universe of Vaesen by Johan Egerkrans, which is a monster book presented in universe, with no mechanics, only lore.
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In some ways I agree, in some I disagree. Maybe it is due to me being a Swede that somewhat likes folklore but I have a basic knowledge of most of the "monsters" and most of my friends would do ok to. But there is also the fact that Nordic, and most other cultures mystical creatures I have read about, are very varied depending on which story you take it from, the time and even region within the culture. A monster manual will often set information in stone for players, whether that is intended or not. I think it is possible to write open monster manuals that points in a direction and don't prescribe things, maybe that book it is based on is like that (my partner have it by I have not read it) but I think much could be done with a simple search online or in a library. But this might be my interest in cultural gaming, for people new to Nordic folklore, that have no interest in reading up on it, there should have been done more to make it easy to get into. Obviously, since people feel that it is missing viral stuff. 😊
This channel is one of the most precious treasures we have in the RPG community; even with games I've read/played, I always walk away from these reviews with some insight that resonates but hadn't occurred to me in those terms before
Sounds like the investigation roll needs outcomes like "You succeed, you uncover the clue and then something good happens" and "You fail at your roll, you uncover the clue but you find it out the hard way" or things like that Fellowship does.
God, I loved this more critical review (though I do think your general note dismissing the Year Zero Engine is reductive). So many games often have these mechanics that just do not vibe with what they are going for or extreme detail and focus on things that don't matter for their core fantasy. And by god, I think the average GM advice for most ttrpg books I have read is either nonexistent or just bad. Being a reviewer that actually plays these games, actually tries to play them how they tell you to play them (instead of just inserting your GMing style no matter the game), and calls out when it doesn't work is so important. We need more ttrpg discussion like this.
I agree on all parts. The Free League game system is also still good, for certain games. Like Twilight 2000 or Forbidden Lands? Heck yes. But not something like Vaesen.
@03dashk64 @03dashk64 I've run every Song of Dreams and all of Wicked Secret and honestly I have to disagree. I've always been extremely impressed with how Free League can make such a simple core system feel wildly different by just fiddling around with the system, and I've found it more than sufficient for Vaesen's horror/mystery stories. As far as published mysteries go, yes, you do run into Song of Falling Stars (the one he mentions about Manipulation), but even by just reading what that roll does as written it's easy to devise ways other skills could achieve the same effect, or potentially circumvent it entirely. My players have come at things from WILDLY different angles than the book provides and logically arrive at the correct realization. Or sometimes the correct solution for the completely wrong realization. Honestly, the only "house rule" I've implemented is using Gumshoe's "If they put in the effort to look, they find the first/important clue. Successes are for additional information."
@@03dashk64 i actually found Twilight 2000s version of the system to be extremely fun, the step up instead of dice pool just felt really good for some reason
Vaesen has a whole chapter named The Mystery that explains how to create and run a mystery. Even if you aren't creating the mystery it gives really good advice on how to run one.
I played Vaesen for a short campaign as a player and I very much agree. There's a lot of cool and inspirational content in the book, and us players loved the old castle and scenes there. But the investigations felt a little clumsy sometimes. However, our GM put in a fair amount of footwork to make sure we could use most of the skills on a regular basis and so that problem never came up with us
I feel like this game would make an awesome setting for Monster of the Week, just completely transplant the rules from that and maybe create some new playbooks that fit the time period better.
I love your content, Quinn, and "The Quinns Quest Guarantee". Many people are out here reviewing games they have only read and that seems like commenting on the taste of a recipe you have only read in a cook book. I also love everything I have purchased and played from Free League. I'm glad that Free League has commented here to present their argument as well. I will be running Vaesen soon and read up after watching this video to see if there were any pitfalls to navigate. Page 40 of the rule book seemed to answer most of your complaints about the narrative gears grinding on failed rolls with not one, but three options "When a failed test threatens the flow of the story, there are three methods the Gamemaster can use to salvage the situation: consequences, Conditions, and requirements. " To me, after a year long campaign of Blades in the Dark, that seems very much in line with a "no, but" or fail forward mechanic. The main difference being that a GM needs to know or determine where the game ending failure points are and deploy these options there. Personally, I'd offer the players the choice of which of the options they want to take to move forward. That not only keeps things from coming to a full stop but turns failure into narrative agency in terms of how things advanced while getting more complicated. Again, Quinn, I love what you are doing and the production value you bring and I love that Free League has answered your points with aplomb while taking onboard your notes and difficulties with the system. This discourse really helps to provide insights on how to have the best time possible with the game. Thank you both. That said, @FreeLeaguePublishing, I would dearly love either an option for an economy version of Vaesen: Spirits and Monsters of Scandinavian Folklore, or a PDF to print for the table. It's a great tool, but if the price point is the same as your other RPGs game and scenario books, the case for it at the table weakens. Having it on DTRPG would be fantastic.
The art book is available as an e-book in Swedish at least, which is a lot cheaper, but I couldn't find an e-book version in English which seems weird if there is one for the Swedish version. If you know Swedish you can at least get it. Whoever the good news is that the starter set that is a part of their latest kickstarter will include a Lore booklet about the vaesen as a handout for players. It's not as cheap as a pdf would have been, but it's still cheaper than the artbook.
Totally appreciated that little segment regarding Metamorphosis Alpha, which I remember being advertised in old Dragon magazines. There sure were a lot fewer RPGs in those days, and some were definitely derivative.
I never got that the Society should be a Secret Society. My character went out and nailed flyers to train stations advertising our 19th century Ghostbuster’s non-profit. Trouble with Vaesen? Telegram the Society in Upsala!
Absolutely! Although secret societies where also really in vogue and I see the appeal of running a secret society. An option in-between can be having the Society be secret in the same way as Freemasons are, publicly known but really secretive and guarded. Not sure what I prefer. I plan on running a campaign of Vaesen when the DnD campaign I currently run comes to an end and I'm imagine it will work best to discuss whit the players how secret it will be. A good thing about them restarting the Society is that the characters can define how the new Society works and that you can have the new and old work in different ways!
It may have just been an off the cuff remark, but I would watch an entire campaign about fights in car parks in Northern England, based around Dojos, martial arts, and gangs. That genuinely sounds incredible.
the crushed genital part of the injuries just had me envision this scene of two of the pc's arguing and one says something like "you make my balls ache!" to which the other snaps back with "OH YOUR BALLS ACHE DO THEY!"
I'm getting the game now, and hope to run a Vaesen game one day. I thought of the same problems that you pointed out in the video. Thanks for the idea of printing out case files for the players, I'll definitely use that!
I wholeheartedly agree with this review. While I simply LOVE the concept and all the little ideas Vaesen presents, it sadly ends up being like a lot of the Free League Projects: A game that doesn't really respect my time as a GM and makes me have to work A LOT OF EXTRA TIME to be able to run it satisfyingly at the table. OH and are you RI GHT that this system is showing its age, and that, the "conditions for wounds" system aside, it reaaaallly struggles to delivers. I do not exactly agree with hiding crucial information behind dice rolls though and do not recall the game doing that, but maybe I have not read the scenario you are referring to? Thanks for making such honest review and to, unlike some many reviewers, for taking the actual time to RUN games of what you reviews because it is truly how one can truly know what they are talking about. Why I have the whole collection of Vaesen and love to revisit its pages from time to time, I won't be running it again anytime soon. I'm more into those "Old school games" with minimal word-nowadays and GM-friendly scenarios/sandboxes.
A core difference is that in City of Mist you are *also* one of the creatures and a core part of the story is your arc as a Mythic entity. Though I guess you could think of it more like a gatekeeper campaign, except without all the bureaucracy of the Gatekeepers :D More importantly, CoM actually has a partial success system and doesn't put 90% of the game on the back of one or two skills. City of Mist has issues also, but I found them easier to address. With Vaesen, my experience was pretty much like Quinn's: Lovely game concept but rules I didn't like or find fit to purpose.
I'm hoping that teased investigative game review is gonna be Brindlewood Bay - I find its mystery resolution mechanic fascinating on paper, but would love to know how it works in practice.
I pretty much agree with 99% of this, and when i ran a game had a really similar ideas - I used a heavily edited version of the bestiary plus a bunch of stuff from various folklore online sources to create 'The Knowledge' a book passed down through generations of the society containing all the collected wisdom of their predecessors (complete rip off of the book the brothers use in Supernatural, basically) as a physical prop which the players loved and referred to constantly. It was 100% the source for some of the best stuff that happened in the campaign - including an extremely amusing period where they were *convinced* they knew what they were up against but in fact had accidentally flipped two pages at once and were completely wrong...
I've been curious about the game and appreciate all the points you went deep on. I love the way you handled getting the players information. It seems like there is an opportunity here for a third party to create something like the Field Guide to Hot Springs Island by Swordfish Islands; a physical artifact of previously recorded lore with potentially questionable veracity. Essentially what you did, but you know, as a referee you wouldn't have to put in the work, time, and effort to make your own.
Honestly Quinns…. You don’t know me, we’ve never met, but I feel like we’re old friends. Gotta be a decade of me watching you recommend games and crack jokes. I gotta say, I Absolutely love watching Quinns Quest. This is fresh and interesting, you bring your humour to the reviews, but most importantly… your insight and critique is always spot on! Please please please keep it up! Great writing and great production and just overall great fun. I’d love to see you review one of the 2d20 systems (like Achtung Cthulhu or Fallout) if you get the chance.
I'd definitely play, "Fights in the Car Park" The Roleplaying Game TM! Also, the stupid idea is a great one. Some of the best roleplaying games have got a 'players shouldn't read this bit' section of their book so the GM can surprise the players and the players will understand that their characters aren't meant to know everything.
I’ve been so excited for this upload since I found your channel two weeks ago! I literally watched all the videos in a couple hours 😂 Also, love the hat.
I do like the idea of failure leads to the monster advancing towards its next stage. Changing failures into "Portents" builds suspense. Definitely sounds like a lot of division between rules and the world
Thank you! I got Vaesen with the best of intentions but when I read it I really felt like something was missing. I thought it was just me being dense but you’ve nailed it- there is a big chunk of important info missing
It's nice to see a more critical review on the channel. While I love the 20 minute hype speeches the games this far have received, I feel this reminds me of why I trust Quinn's to tell me their honest opinions.
Thanks for this. One of my players has asked to play this game. Reading the book, I had many of the concerns you talked about in the video. I’ll definitely be preparing those “investigator note sheets” you showed. That’s a great idea!
I loooooooooooove Vaesen! I just wish the core book gave the GMs more tools to craft their own adventures than what's already there. I can definitely see though the problems with the system and the execution that you bring up in the video. The system is definitely showing its age and the investigation is not always detailed enough. And the core book for Vaesen specifically feels a bit bare-bones, it's there to provide rules and setting for published adventures - at least that's how it feels to me. P.S. I see that Cloud Empress just sitting there in the background, staring at me... Is it a hint that a Cloud Empress review is coming?! ;)
The surprisingly common puzzle of the setting and plot being interesting, so long as you replace every part of the mechanics with the ones from a different game.
Thank you, Quinn! I'm living in Uppsala for several years already not knowing there a game exists that actually based in this city! How cool that is! I already have some great ideas of how to encourage my players to actually explore the real Uppsala for finding clues in the game. So excited to play it, thank you for this review!
I intend to run Vaesen for one of my playgroups. I was having a hard time thinking about how to get them familiar with the vaesen without just doing exposition and I LOVED the idea of blanking parts of the monster pages. Great stuff, thanks for the awesome vid as always :)
Thank you for the honest review! I love the Year Zero Engine, coincidentally I was listening to Vaesen actualplay just yesterday. It's good to know the pros and cons of the game.
Thank you Quinns for playing all these ttrpgs so that I can find new ones to share with my friends! Were you unable to schedule a "What were you thinking?" segment this time? I can imagine time constraints may be an issue for that to be a regular feature.
So idk if it's interesting to know but vaesen started out as an art book by Johan Egerkrans and was then adapted into an rpg. I think the intention is for the players to use that book as a sort of handbook to investigate Vaesen.
I'd redact things a lot but use scratch off tape so that if the players wanted to investigate specific things they could and then scratch off to find the answer. As they built up this knowledge their reference sheets would become more and more valuable. Even if this Vaesen wasn't a farie, next weeks might be and now you're research last game is paying off now!
In the investigation genre of TTRPGs I’ve been absolutely loving the Carved from Brindlewood games. Highly collaborative, much less mentally demanding. I’m running two games a week right now: Brindlewood Bay, old ladies solving murders, and Public Access, a group of 20-somethings looking into a disappeared tv station in the desert of New Mexico. Highly recommend. Edit: oh god I did the annoying talk about and recommend something else. This comment was inspired by Quinn’s mention of how much effort it took to run a mystery. CfB games alleviate that a lot by placing it onto the players more equally
I'm a fan but I've seen some people online very against the way it does things, saying stuff like "if it doesn't have a pre-set solution, it's not actually a mystery" (which imo is bollocks, but I'm old enough to usually be able to avoid wasting my time arguing with people on the internet)
It seems like the Gumshoe system in general, and Esoterrorist in this specific situation, have solved some of the problems. Using a resource-spent system to guarantee success, but making it harder and harder and overall having 30+ investigation skills so even a group of 5 people all 5 people can be in the spotlight a decent number of times. You had Trail of Cthulhu in there. Does Vaesen help in explaining a successful investigation? In Esoterrorist solving the mystery and hiding the mystery from the public is often enough without a forced showdown. Although Robin D. Laws intro to investigation pnp is pretty good at explaining the difference to dungeon crawling.
Vaesen sounds interesting to me because I love detective fiction. This also reminds me a bit of Jim Butcher and his Harry Dresden series, which is great on audible with Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, James Marsters, reading the books. Though I do seriously doubt I could get any of my friends to play this, since they have so many groups they are playing with, and i am only down to one game every other week. A house leveling up, reminds me of the house that Dice Camera Action group ended up with in Waterdeep.
Yet again I start watching the episode and before I'm half way through I am on the publishers websites taking a look, or even downloading any free starter versions! Enjoying looking through the information and the art and then seeing if this is the next RPG book I can buy, read and then never get to play.
I completely agree when it comes to the year zero engine, it's really good when you're trying a bit of everything and can tackle a problem from different angles, makes sense why it wouldn't work out a as well here. Thanks for another amazing review!
I definitely agree with the point that investigative rpgs are harder to run than a sword and sorcery game. Personally I find trying to make a mystery hit that sweet spot between not being super easy and not being incredibly confusing for players is really hard.
I'm a huge fan of Vaesen and hope it gets more love. I've often used CoC as a way to get new people into trpgs because sometimes people hear the term and think the kids in stranger things talking about wizards and elves and thats not for everyone. But a mystery in a 'realistic' setting is much easier to grab people. Granted it helps CoC is a single roll based on a percentage and honestly has the best new player starter box on the market but i think elements Vaesen uses like the home base and the idea of "maybe we can resolve this with parley with the hildefolk instead of fight or flight" allows for more resolutions than CoC does and i think thats something deserves more love. I hope it continues to grow and we get more setting books. One about the americas and how traditional beliefs were carried over and changed with people in appalacchia believing in their own version of a kobold or mine gnome could raise some interesting ideas about how the vaesen are adapting in places as well as clashing with the rise of industry for example. I think my only major critique is lack of guides and tools for creating your own investigations. Stuff that seems obvious when you've been doing it for years if not decades in games like CoC might be totally unknown to a beginner used to the more dungeon crawl power fantasy stuff and i think its a shame there isn't a more substantial -at least as of the last time i checked in on new releases- guide going "so, you want to have your friends running in circles for five hours".
Great review. I love harsh reviews which focus on the flaws of the game, because they highlight the issues that demand more creativity from the GM and the players. I had the same issues Quinn talks about. But since it was my first time as a GM, I didn't know if it was just me or really some elements of the game itself. Yes, GMing felt like landing a plane. But it was my own story, and it was so fun, emotional and rewarding. I love this game, despite all that it's missing from the core rulebook.
The whole "iron coin to this little girl's head" thing just makes me imagine an investigator doing the coin behind the ear magic trick to every child they see, just in case they're a fairy.
Hello! Free League co-founder here, designer of the Year Zero Engine and editor of Vaesen. Thanks for that interesting and entertaining review! We always strive to improve and constructive criticism is always appreciated. That said, there are some things in the review that I'd like to comment on.
Firstly, what was to become the "Year Zero Engine" was written about a decade ago, and the principle of "yes but...", or "fail forward," i.e. the idea that no single failed dice roll should block progress of the story, was very much part of the game system philosophy from the very beginning. And it is the case in Vaesen as well (released in 2020) - in fact, this is discussed at some length on page 40 of the core rulebook.
Yes, the official adventures do require skill rolls to unlock information in some cases, as we do want knowledge skills to matter in this game (and this is hardly unique for Vaesen). But such information, behind a "dice wall", is, while useful, never essential to proceed with the story - or if it is essential, there are always other ways to gain the same clue. This principle of adventure design, about central clues vs peripheral clues, is discussed at length on pages 176-178 in the core book. I'd be interested to know which adventure you were running where a failed dice roll to gain information completely derailed or blocked the story?
Yes, Investigation and Manipulation are important skills, perhaps the most important in the game, but most if not all of the official adventures do offer other challenges as well, using Learning, Stealth, Agility or combat skills. Combat can happen against vaesen, but more often against other humans.
As for the players learning about vaesen - I loved your homebrewed compendium with vaesen knowledge! In fact, we encourage players to use the art (and fact) book Vaesen (on which the RPG is based) or other books on folklore in exactly this way - the characters have the Sight and know vaesen after all, and have access to information about them. However, having the players themselves poring over text like this at the table to figure out which vaesen they are up against and how to overcome it can, while fun, be quite time consuming at the table. That's why many of the official adventures also offer a simple Learning roll to unlock the characters' own expertise (but again, failing this roll will not block progress).
Yes, many details about the vaesen are left vague or not described at all in the core game book. This is intentional, as the creatures of old folklore could take many forms and can appear in different forms in different adventures. This is not like a bestiary in a traditional fantasy RPG.
All that said - while we are very happy with Vaesen and many players out there are enjoying it, we do appreciate the feedback and will consider it carefully if we were to make a second edition of the game. So thank you. :)
Terrific. Thanks so much for taking the time to comment & making so many cool games! Big fan of what you and your team do. Xx
To be completely fair i do not agree with many of Quinns criticisms here and think that leaving the game open-ended and needing GM to figure some things out and fill in some gaps is often a better approach than to provide ready-to-go solutions. I believe that makes my Vaesen different to somebody else's and gives game more mystery, while also giving the GM more work, yes, but also more space to make the story their own. First Quinn's review that i strongly disagree with.
@@Quinns_Quest Would be great to see this conversation pinned, not often the publishers take time out to respond to reviewers on TH-cam!
@@Quinns_Quest Thank you!
So, I am going to jump in on the topic of YZE and fail forward with a story I learned from Magic the Gathering design. In MTG there is a mechanic called ‘Cycling’ which means, you pay X mana, discard the card, and draw a card. Very simple mechanic. Magic then made other cards that sit on the board and say ‘When you discard a card, do X.’
What they found in playtesting is that someone has a card out that says ‘When you discard a card, draw a card’. This player would then look at their hand and activate a card with Cycling, and only draw 1 card from the cycling. They never activated the ability of the second card on the board. Why? Well, one says ‘Cycling’ the other says ‘Discard.’ Pros and regular players are very much informed that Cycling = Discard, but new players would regularly forget or not make the connection in play. There is enough cognitive load going on that the rule they probably heard once a few weeks ago that ‘Cycling includes discarding’ has slipped the mind or been forgotten.
The fix? On the permanent card the wording was changed to ‘When you discard, or cycle, a card, do X.’ and now no one misses the trigger!
So here is how I apply the lesson to Vaesen. On page 39 we see the rules for Failing (Screenshot below) Firstly, these specific rules do not indicate any kind of fail forward. Alone, that rule block details is Failure = Failure.
Now we turn the page, not on the same 2 page spread, and we see the second box attached below, essentially detailing the fail forward mechanic. Note its over the page spread, if you go back to check the dice resolution mechanics in game its not on the same page and ‘Failure’ as a topic is resolved. You will easily miss the box.
The I skimmed the book for other references to failure in play and as a mechanic.
> …Failing can mean that you have misread the situation, been detected, or appear hostile to the people you are watching
> …Usually a failed test simply means that a day has been wasted, though the Game master may allow an enemy to act.
> …Failing the test means that you give yourself away to the opposite party and must disclose your player character’s thoughts, feelings, and intentions.
> …On failure you are given inaccurate information, attacked, or suffer a Condition.
> … If the test fails, she is either hostile or in great need of your help.
> … It does not count as an action. If the test fails, you are hit for 1 extra damage. This can be done once per combat encounter.
> … If the sneak attack fails you are detected, and your opponent may draw an extra initiative card and pick the best one.
> … On failure you become Terrified. Roll a six-sided die to see how many rounds it takes to regain control of yourself. Whether you flee, freeze, faint, or attack is up to you (see the Terrified text box) Once you have regained control you are no longer Terrified.
> ...The characters should preferably be able to obtain the central clues without having to rely on die rolls, as failure risks grinding the story to a halt.
You get the idea. My thesis is as such: Yes, the sidebar exists, but if you removed the sidebar besides a few references in the clue section there is next to no reference to Fail Forward in the game. Vaesen does not teach or reinforce GM’s or Players to consider failure to allow the story to go on, instead it clearly communicates failure is failure, except for this one sidebar. I would further argue that last example directly contradicts the idea that even on a failed roll you can succeed at a cost, by instead warding you away from a roll entirely.
What is to be learned here? Well number one Quinn is wrong. The rules do support fail forward. 100% he is objectively incorrect, but it is more than an understandable mistake because the game does not stand by and reinforce its mechanics consistently.
I write my own TTRPG’s and a mechanic I stole from Trinity as something akin to fail forward is Consolation. Fail a roll, get a consolation prize, usually meta mechanic. I made a point that every single time the books I write mention failure, they also say ‘And take Consolation’. Now on a ctrl+F you actually see the word Consolation more than Failure in the book. This way the reader is continuously reminded again and again that there is always a Consolation (Unless it’s a botch but that’s its own thing).
The obvious counterpoint here is that players should just fully read the book and learn the rules. I would rather ask for empathy - we make mistakes, and its important to learn how to stop those mistakes happening again. Quinn was incorrect, but TTRPG’s are very complicated games, and GM’s more than anyone have a lot of cognitive load to worry about. It is better to design games into human nature, with regular repletion and reinforcement than against it, then chastise for honest mistakes.
Personally, I hope the takeway from this is not to wipe hands, be chuffed that Quinn was wrong, but instead for this to be a learning experience that mechanics such as this need to be more strongly communicated and reinforced if we want to avoid such mistakes happening again.
That's a red onion, not a red flag, Quinns
how is this terrible joke the most upvoted comment 🙈
Everyone knows the enemy of the Reference Pear is the Red Onion. You failed your Lore check!
It is often said that the comments are a reflection of the creator.
@@Quinns_Quest How did you not expect this from us?
Losing a whole mountain seems somewhat careless.
They didn't chain it down, it's their own fault
No, to lose a whole mountain is misfortune. Losing two is careless.
The slamming of books on the desk with dice and other things rattling is top notch youtube and keeps me coming back, honestly.
Quinns getting so excited that he starts smacking us, the viewers, with his book is so funny.
Wait, when did that happen?
@@ASpaceOstrich around 8:38
As an entitled white man he is allowed to hit us
As he stated in the video he's an entitled white man and is allowed to hit us.
The bit in the intro where Quinn's places his hands over a keyboard and then proceeds to 2 finger type always makes me laugh
Appreciate the focus on a problem I have with a lot of RPGs: The developers give you all the fun bits (monsters, special powers, etc.) and then does absolutely nothing to help with the heavy lifting of actually using all those fun bits in practice.
Plenty of RPGs provide that. DnD does not.
I let my players always host a part of aspect of an adventure, so we all carry the burden and experience the riddle, and increase differences in approaches.
@@upsidely Examples of RPGs that provide that?
@@sefatsilverlake3816 Mothership's Wardens Operation Manual is a great resource for learning how to run a compelling sci-fi horror session and campaign, and a lot of it is transferable to most adventure/action/horror games.
@@KootFlorisIf you're able to, could you please elaborate a bit more on how you do that?
Consistently love the ‘vintage’ framing device for this series. It adds so much character.
It really reminds me very pleasantly of an old series about Sci-Fi, Fantasy, comics and related stuff called Prisoners of Gravity, hosted by Rick Green. It had a similar presentation, though it's gimmick was that the host had built as space ship and escaped the earth, crashed into a space station with only an AI for company, and he'd just pirate broadcast his discussions on whatever aspect of the genres (including author interviews) he felt like talking about that week. And, I mean, that show started in the late 80s, so there the period vibe was entirely natural. Somebody else, 30 years later, talking to me about nerdy stuff through a weird framing device including vhs static and the like - and doing it well - just throws me back in the best way.
@@Daemonworks Never heard of that series! I love that type of framing so much.
@Quinns_Quest very few people have. it lasted 5 seasons here in Canada, but I don't think it ever got broadcast anywhere else, and even here, it seems to have flown under a log of people's radar. Some percentage of it is kicking around on TH-cam, because of course it is.
@@Daemonworks Whoa Prisoners of Gravity reference! That's an artifact of a very specific time and specific (though massive) place! I still remember my mind being blown when I realized that PoG was hosted by the guy who played incompetent neighbour Bill on the Red Green Show (and created that show).
@@AdamDrew Yeah, co-creator/co-writer. The Red Green persona was something Steve Smith had been doing for years, but Green was the other half of making that show, mostly behind the scenes.
Honestly, everything Rick's worked on was gold, and he's one of those people who's work was the direct inspiration for folks who are a bit better known. Like few people have heard of Four on the Floor, but it was a major influence on Kids in the Hall.
This is one of the most simultaneously artistic and useful RPG channels on TH-cam. Incredible.
It's so weird to think how the Gumshoe system's revelation of "if you have the appropriate investigation skill, you automatically find a clue, but you can still roll to find MORE clues" hasn't been picked up by other games.
You shouldn't need a skill at all imho.
I run CoC describing the visible clues without rolling and if an players asks to search in a specific place or something like that they'll also find it without a roll given enough time. So I try to make rolls come in only if there's some danger or narrow time limit pressing the PC. Rolling for most clues in CoC & even Gumshoe to a degree make systems out of things that people can achieve naturally, which feels kind of unnecessary in the same way that rolling for every action in a dungeon crawl.
@@Burnedcoffee0 Honestly, I disagree. I've helped Mom look for random missing bits (car keys, the lid for something, whatever) and we've both looked through a place, decided "it's not here," searched the rest of the logical area (house for keys, kitchen for lids, etc), and been thoroughly convinced they weren't there. In the case of lids, we've even assumed that Dad had tossed the lid out, *searched the bin*, and then given up, moved on and only found the lid when we were cleaning up in that place we both declared it definitely could not be.
If you're talking a clue to supernatural goings-on rather than something that we know definitely physically exists somewhere in an area, you can bet something that's subtle enough will get missed and a person will leave it behind with 100% confidence they had thoroughly checked the place over and found everything. Observation (or perception or whatever a system calls it) is a real life skill, and while it's partly based on the natural quality of one's senses (a blind person won't see a knife's handle sticking out of its hiding place from across the room, for an obvious example), a lot of it has to do with how you mentally process what you see.
I think it's because not a lot of people actually like it in practice. too much to talk about in youtube comments (good discussion topic) but I'd recommend taking a look at The Alexandrian's article on GUMSHOE's approach (about 11 years old at this point). there's a lot to say about it and I think there's a lot of good insight out there in old creaking forums and new modern game design interviews and articles to put perspective on how GUMSHOE's approach effects not only the way the rules of the game are implemented but also the way a story moves and the conversations at the table. IIRC Vaesen clue finding works very similar to GUMSHOE, though I didn't hear Quinn point that out in this video.
I've pretty much "homebrewed" it into almost every game I run.
Yeah, it is so ingrained in my brain, that I never have my players leave without a vital clue. In this case, I can recommend to read p. 40 in the Vaesen core rule book. It says it right there. (Edited for the correct page number :D )
Robin D Laws writes in his "Adventure" chapbook that Mystery scenarios tend to sell well because of how *hard* they are to write -- the needed amount of internal consistency ups the writing effort. This assessment seems consistent with Quinn's comments on how *hard* it is to run an investigation. The nature of the mystery means the average investigation requires a lot much more preparation than the average "dungeon" scenario.
Love the censored handouts - I really like simple props like that that the players can use to help their roleplaying.
There’s a perfect book to give to the players for this. It’s called Vaesen: Spirits and Monsters of Scandinavian Folklore. It goes over every creature, but only gives them flavor text, no stats or confirmed weaknesses. The rpg itself is based on this book, which has the same illustrator.
The only problem is that the book is almost the price of Vaesen core book, and quite hard to get. Vaesen could really benefit from a starter set that would include Vaesen hand-outs with only flavour text based on that book, with some dice, castle layout map and have it for a sensible price. It would really help with the issues Quinns mentions.
@@matttheaxolotl5224I mean, you can order it directly from a swedish viking product company (?) which was the very first Google result. It's $40 plus $13 in shipping so that doesn't address the cost, but it seems easy to get. Still, some of that background lore needs to be in the book.
I like the suggestion of Vaesen: Spirits and Monsters, but it seems unobtainable.
What about the Vaesen card deck by the same publisher? I am thinking of handling a few at each crucial point in the game as possible suspect
I use the card deck for exactly this. When ever they rummaging through old books trying to figure which Væsen might be at play I hand them a few cards of potential suspects (potentially along with some extra details like weaknesses and so on)
This is such an insightful discussion of the game. I'm absolutely loving everything you've been doing. Thanks for putting so much love and care into each of these videos.
20:00 "If this were a TV show..." Well, it kind of already is. The description of this game could pretty much be describing a prequel spin-off series for the TV show "Grimm" (2011-2017) that had fokelore monsters (Wesen, often pronounced/sounding like "Vessan") hidden among humans, special humans (Grimms) that can see the Wesen for what they are, secret societies, along with history and ancient mysteries between the Wesen and Grimm societies. The show was set in modern-day, but if there was ever a spin-off prequel that went into the "history" between Grimms and Wesen this game would come pretty close to to being exactly that,
I absolutely loved that show
@@d3wey81 There's a channel on my digital cable called "Comet" that shows a handful of the old sci-fi shows (X-files, BTVS, Tales from the dark side, SG1)and they've been cycling through Grimm. They start with Season 1, Episode 1 playing 4 episodes each weekday starting at 5pm going through the whole series and then start it all over.
Dave's Spokesman has been awfully quiet since 1976 Quinns footage resurfaced
Let's make this crossover happen
I LOVE Vaesen! Such an evocative game!!! Worth mentioning, the issue of failing important rolls is addressed in the book. If PCs fail an essential role they can still be given the information but will take a condition.
I also printed out a huge dossier of creatures with bits of trivia and keywords associated with them. I went a bit overboard with about a hundred or so of them. But my players loved it. We spent a good half of the investigation with them all gathered around the sheets trying to whittle down the possible culprits according to the clues provided. Free League are missing a trick by not creating something like this. It's a game in and of itself.
Three Clue Rule from The Alexandrian blog (and TH-cam channel, and the So You Want to be a Game Master book) has a great structure for prepping and running investigative adventures, if anyone is interested
Great review, but that hasn't been my experience at all.
I leaned heavily into the ideas about failure, conditions, and failing forward as outlined in the core book on pages 30-41. I would set up the conditions and consequences before making the roll and let the idea of failing forward be the guide. My players regularly got into fisticuffs, and sometimes, gun and sword fights with other humans and had to do their level best not to murder people or to be able to explain away that murder when "but there was this giant monster being controlled by him, so we had to kill him, officer" just wouldn't suffice.
My players also pushed rolls, a lot, which seriously improved their chances of success while also including a cost. They also leaned on each other for aid and I would have them role play what they were doing and then have THEM roll the dice (instead of just handing it over) so we would know just how the helped the situation.
My players find out information about the Vaesen mostly through interactions with the locals. All the PCs are adults and sometimes they might half remember stories from their childhood that also inform them. They also are always on the hunt for books on the occult and folklore that might aid them in their research (adding dice to their pools). I am waiting for the day that they fail a roll while reading one of their books while huddling in a room after a terrifying encounter and fail the roll. They'll get the information, but I'll have one of them accidentally tip a candle onto the book and burn a number of its pages before they are able to put it out.
As far as skills go, we used them all. My players often lament that they don't have any points in a particular skill they need at one time. Then again, they have a curious habit of climbing out second and third story windows, sneaking around hotels and taverns at night, eavesdropping on people, kicking down doors, pacifying angry mobs, and a host of other things that have put them in compromising positions.
I'm sorry that Quinns had a hard time with the game, but it truly sang for my group. They have loved it so much that we started playing Gen Lab Alpha, the post apocalyptic mutant animal game that uses an earlier version of the Year Zero Engine.
I still think this is a great review. Some of the criticism Quinns has goes against the published adventures which do require tweaking here and there. I HIGHLY recommend watching the 1shotreview channel's reviews of a number of published Vaesen adventures. His tweaks help make the adventures easier to run or get you thinking of ways to expand them to work better with your particular group even if you don't do exactly what he does: www.youtube.com/@1ShotJC
Vaesen is the first RPG I bought that I plan to GM based solely on the fact that premise sounds fantastic. After going through the core book I felt a bit overwhelmed though. Having all this special GM-only information but missing lines connecting any of it. As you mention, reading these "secrets" on Vaesen and then feeling puzzled on "how the hell would I even give this very specific information to PCs without simply handing it to them in a convenient book they found back at the castle".
Your idea with handing them bestiary pages is actually awesome. My plan is to have them find that convenient "Vaesen" tome in castle's library, but it will be enchanted to only show creatures that PCs have heard about, essentially making it their 19th century Pokedex. And as they figure out more details about each Vaesen or have close-encounters with them, new clues will magically appear on the pages with some words too faded to read. It's a bit convenient but will save me having to figure out why a random NPC would know that they need to hammer nails to tree roots.
Ahaha, the Pokédex is a super fun idea. You could even have it fill up with creatures that brushed past the players or blessed them without them noticing, creating more plot hooks!
@@Quinns_Quest Great idea! I have a sudden urge to give one of the PCs with a particularly nasty dark secret (that's hidden from other players) a terrible nightmare back at the castle, only for them to wake up and see the 80s cliche text appear on the page of Mare: "IT KNOWS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE" leaving other PCs puzzled on what that means. Oh joy.
It’s really nice reading/watching a good quality critical review where, despite the concerns that Quinns has, i’m still encouraged to pick up the product because the reviewer has had a fair and balanced discussion on its pros and cons. Ultimately, i’m the final arbiter in what games I want to play, and it’s bloody fantastic having a show that understands that and gives me what I should know up front. Thanks Quinns. Doing great work.
Never thought I'd hear "shrimps poo vein" used as an analogy
But what a brilliant analogy it was!
Does anybody remember if Quinns ever got that second edition? I haven't seen this show in years.
Yeah, IDK. I stopped watching after season 10, it really dropped off after that.
@@massimocole9689 That was when Quinns was suddenly replaced by "Kwinnz" for several episodes with no explanation right? Never did find out what was up with that. Wikipedia has nothing.
@@nonspiderweb Yup. And the "upgrade" to HD always left a sour taste in my mouth.
@@nonspiderwebThe bad CGI they used for Kwinnz did not age well!
Past-Quinns was on to something with putting Enemies in the credits, should bring it back
Currently running Vaesen - I've taken to giving the players a selection of Vaesen cards at the start of the session, including the right one but also a few red herrings. It's helped to allow the players to go "ooh! OOH it's that one!!!" instead of me just asking for a roll
Of I’m not mistaken it is explicitly stated in the rules that primary clues should never be locked behind skill checks (i think its under the investigation skill). Also the rules state that there are three strategies the gm can use while handling failure: consequences, states and demands. Alas failures shouldn’t be doors shutting rather prices to pay while still progressing the story (page 40 in Swedish edition).
Your gripes with Vaesen are extremely on point for me.
The "redacted" versions of statblocks being handed out to players is absolutely genius. I'm going to use that in all of my tabletop games, not just investigation. It's a great way of players sounding really cool and smart without everyone at the table knowing that the GM literally only just told the player "what you know." Then you get the very boring "I relay that to the party."
Seconded! The other benefit is the players get to SEE the AMAZING ART in these monster books that they never read. Gonna do this in my Symbaroum campaign
I really like your fix of giving the characters a monster manual, it was sort of what I was thinking needed to happen. Investigation TTRPGs need a starting point of information about the topic they are investigating. Murder mysteries give info dumps about the murder location or victim. But people understand that a gun or knife are used in a murder, unlike which version of supernatural being is being used in this rpg. And the ability to go back and review the book is not to be disregarded, it is important when trying to gather the right information in a sea of information.
I feel like a player oriented 'In Universe' monster manual is exactly the supplement that this game should have available.
@@FFLegion it kinda does, this whole rpg is based on and set in the universe of Vaesen by Johan Egerkrans, which is a monster book presented in universe, with no mechanics, only lore.
In some ways I agree, in some I disagree. Maybe it is due to me being a Swede that somewhat likes folklore but I have a basic knowledge of most of the "monsters" and most of my friends would do ok to. But there is also the fact that Nordic, and most other cultures mystical creatures I have read about, are very varied depending on which story you take it from, the time and even region within the culture. A monster manual will often set information in stone for players, whether that is intended or not. I think it is possible to write open monster manuals that points in a direction and don't prescribe things, maybe that book it is based on is like that (my partner have it by I have not read it) but I think much could be done with a simple search online or in a library. But this might be my interest in cultural gaming, for people new to Nordic folklore, that have no interest in reading up on it, there should have been done more to make it easy to get into. Obviously, since people feel that it is missing viral stuff. 😊
This channel is one of the most precious treasures we have in the RPG community; even with games I've read/played, I always walk away from these reviews with some insight that resonates but hadn't occurred to me in those terms before
Sounds like the investigation roll needs outcomes like "You succeed, you uncover the clue and then something good happens" and "You fail at your roll, you uncover the clue but you find it out the hard way" or things like that Fellowship does.
“It ran like a shrimp’s poop vein throughout the entire evening”
How.
I.
Wheezed.
Poetic.
Also that’s the best Patreon plug I’ve ever seen.
God, I loved this more critical review (though I do think your general note dismissing the Year Zero Engine is reductive). So many games often have these mechanics that just do not vibe with what they are going for or extreme detail and focus on things that don't matter for their core fantasy. And by god, I think the average GM advice for most ttrpg books I have read is either nonexistent or just bad. Being a reviewer that actually plays these games, actually tries to play them how they tell you to play them (instead of just inserting your GMing style no matter the game), and calls out when it doesn't work is so important. We need more ttrpg discussion like this.
I agree on all parts.
The Free League game system is also still good, for certain games. Like Twilight 2000 or Forbidden Lands? Heck yes. But not something like Vaesen.
@03dashk64 @03dashk64 I've run every Song of Dreams and all of Wicked Secret and honestly I have to disagree. I've always been extremely impressed with how Free League can make such a simple core system feel wildly different by just fiddling around with the system, and I've found it more than sufficient for Vaesen's horror/mystery stories.
As far as published mysteries go, yes, you do run into Song of Falling Stars (the one he mentions about Manipulation), but even by just reading what that roll does as written it's easy to devise ways other skills could achieve the same effect, or potentially circumvent it entirely. My players have come at things from WILDLY different angles than the book provides and logically arrive at the correct realization. Or sometimes the correct solution for the completely wrong realization.
Honestly, the only "house rule" I've implemented is using Gumshoe's "If they put in the effort to look, they find the first/important clue. Successes are for additional information."
The ALIEN version of the system is incredible, the simple addition of the Stress mechanics is so well-done and evocative.
@@03dashk64 i actually found Twilight 2000s version of the system to be extremely fun, the step up instead of dice pool just felt really good for some reason
Vaesen has a whole chapter named The Mystery that explains how to create and run a mystery. Even if you aren't creating the mystery it gives really good advice on how to run one.
Also I so appreciate the little nods to other games when you're doing your reviews. It really helps shed light on lesser talked about games.
"imagine there's an elf behind you, creeping up, ready to grab your leg!"
Me: Hey while you're back there could you do the dishes?
The power fantasy of home ownership
The real Millennial horror story.
2:45 You wot mate? You havin' a giggle? *jumps off a street lamp and does a bicycle kick towards another guy on a different street lamp*
I played Vaesen for a short campaign as a player and I very much agree. There's a lot of cool and inspirational content in the book, and us players loved the old castle and scenes there. But the investigations felt a little clumsy sometimes. However, our GM put in a fair amount of footwork to make sure we could use most of the skills on a regular basis and so that problem never came up with us
I feel like this game would make an awesome setting for Monster of the Week, just completely transplant the rules from that and maybe create some new playbooks that fit the time period better.
I love your content, Quinn, and "The Quinns Quest Guarantee". Many people are out here reviewing games they have only read and that seems like commenting on the taste of a recipe you have only read in a cook book.
I also love everything I have purchased and played from Free League. I'm glad that Free League has commented here to present their argument as well. I will be running Vaesen soon and read up after watching this video to see if there were any pitfalls to navigate. Page 40 of the rule book seemed to answer most of your complaints about the narrative gears grinding on failed rolls with not one, but three options "When a failed test threatens the flow of the story, there are three methods the Gamemaster can use to salvage the situation: consequences, Conditions, and requirements. " To me, after a year long campaign of Blades in the Dark, that seems very much in line with a "no, but" or fail forward mechanic. The main difference being that a GM needs to know or determine where the game ending failure points are and deploy these options there. Personally, I'd offer the players the choice of which of the options they want to take to move forward. That not only keeps things from coming to a full stop but turns failure into narrative agency in terms of how things advanced while getting more complicated.
Again, Quinn, I love what you are doing and the production value you bring and I love that Free League has answered your points with aplomb while taking onboard your notes and difficulties with the system. This discourse really helps to provide insights on how to have the best time possible with the game. Thank you both.
That said, @FreeLeaguePublishing, I would dearly love either an option for an economy version of Vaesen: Spirits and Monsters of Scandinavian Folklore, or a PDF to print for the table. It's a great tool, but if the price point is the same as your other RPGs game and scenario books, the case for it at the table weakens. Having it on DTRPG would be fantastic.
The art book is available as an e-book in Swedish at least, which is a lot cheaper, but I couldn't find an e-book version in English which seems weird if there is one for the Swedish version. If you know Swedish you can at least get it.
Whoever the good news is that the starter set that is a part of their latest kickstarter will include a Lore booklet about the vaesen as a handout for players. It's not as cheap as a pdf would have been, but it's still cheaper than the artbook.
Totally appreciated that little segment regarding Metamorphosis Alpha, which I remember being advertised in old Dragon magazines. There sure were a lot fewer RPGs in those days, and some were definitely derivative.
I'm going to steal the "old house where everyone lives with a creepy butler" for my Monster of the Week campaign
I never got that the Society should be a Secret Society. My character went out and nailed flyers to train stations advertising our 19th century Ghostbuster’s non-profit. Trouble with Vaesen? Telegram the Society in Upsala!
That's my read too. Spiritualist movements were in vogue at the turn of the century, and the Society would fit in well among them.
This is the way
Absolutely! Although secret societies where also really in vogue and I see the appeal of running a secret society. An option in-between can be having the Society be secret in the same way as Freemasons are, publicly known but really secretive and guarded. Not sure what I prefer.
I plan on running a campaign of Vaesen when the DnD campaign I currently run comes to an end and I'm imagine it will work best to discuss whit the players how secret it will be.
A good thing about them restarting the Society is that the characters can define how the new Society works and that you can have the new and old work in different ways!
My favourite video channel on youtube at the moment.
I have been on TH-cam since it started back in 2005. This is some of the best content I have ever seen. Such well crafted videos.
Anyone else get the feeling Quinns created a whole new channel just so he could drop heavy books on tables?
Also drop heavy truths.
@@TorIverWilhelmsen lol, yes.
It may have just been an off the cuff remark, but I would watch an entire campaign about fights in car parks in Northern England, based around Dojos, martial arts, and gangs. That genuinely sounds incredible.
the crushed genital part of the injuries just had me envision this scene of two of the pc's arguing and one says something like "you make my balls ache!" to which the other snaps back with "OH YOUR BALLS ACHE DO THEY!"
For some reason I read this in a Scottish accent.
"Characterful." Such an apt expression.
I love this new channel Quinns! Thanks for the great videos!
“Babe, why are you still awake?”
“I’m waiting for more Quinns Quest to drop!”
I love the way you drop gm advice gems as if they were sidenotes
I love this channel. Quinns ruined my friend group with Neptune's pride like a thousand years ago, but this era is fire af no cap fr fr.
This entire video review read like an Agatha Christie novel, full of twists and turns and another mystery at the end.
Extremely well done!
I'm getting the game now, and hope to run a Vaesen game one day. I thought of the same problems that you pointed out in the video. Thanks for the idea of printing out case files for the players, I'll definitely use that!
I wholeheartedly agree with this review. While I simply LOVE the concept and all the little ideas Vaesen presents, it sadly ends up being like a lot of the Free League Projects: A game that doesn't really respect my time as a GM and makes me have to work A LOT OF EXTRA TIME to be able to run it satisfyingly at the table. OH and are you RI GHT that this system is showing its age, and that, the "conditions for wounds" system aside, it reaaaallly struggles to delivers. I do not exactly agree with hiding crucial information behind dice rolls though and do not recall the game doing that, but maybe I have not read the scenario you are referring to?
Thanks for making such honest review and to, unlike some many reviewers, for taking the actual time to RUN games of what you reviews because it is truly how one can truly know what they are talking about.
Why I have the whole collection of Vaesen and love to revisit its pages from time to time, I won't be running it again anytime soon. I'm more into those "Old school games" with minimal word-nowadays and GM-friendly scenarios/sandboxes.
man the vibes on this channel are just the most IMMACULATE every time
I'm gonna sound a lot like the guy that's only played City of Mist, but it sounds a lot like City of Mist.
A core difference is that in City of Mist you are *also* one of the creatures and a core part of the story is your arc as a Mythic entity. Though I guess you could think of it more like a gatekeeper campaign, except without all the bureaucracy of the Gatekeepers :D More importantly, CoM actually has a partial success system and doesn't put 90% of the game on the back of one or two skills. City of Mist has issues also, but I found them easier to address.
With Vaesen, my experience was pretty much like Quinn's: Lovely game concept but rules I didn't like or find fit to purpose.
I'm hoping that teased investigative game review is gonna be Brindlewood Bay - I find its mystery resolution mechanic fascinating on paper, but would love to know how it works in practice.
Came here to say the very same thing!
I pretty much agree with 99% of this, and when i ran a game had a really similar ideas - I used a heavily edited version of the bestiary plus a bunch of stuff from various folklore online sources to create 'The Knowledge' a book passed down through generations of the society containing all the collected wisdom of their predecessors (complete rip off of the book the brothers use in Supernatural, basically) as a physical prop which the players loved and referred to constantly. It was 100% the source for some of the best stuff that happened in the campaign - including an extremely amusing period where they were *convinced* they knew what they were up against but in fact had accidentally flipped two pages at once and were completely wrong...
Wait a second, go back to that Wuxia in impoverished dojos idea, my brain just lit up with inspiration like a Christmas tree!
I've been curious about the game and appreciate all the points you went deep on. I love the way you handled getting the players information. It seems like there is an opportunity here for a third party to create something like the Field Guide to Hot Springs Island by Swordfish Islands; a physical artifact of previously recorded lore with potentially questionable veracity. Essentially what you did, but you know, as a referee you wouldn't have to put in the work, time, and effort to make your own.
Honestly Quinns…. You don’t know me, we’ve never met, but I feel like we’re old friends. Gotta be a decade of me watching you recommend games and crack jokes. I gotta say, I Absolutely love watching Quinns Quest. This is fresh and interesting, you bring your humour to the reviews, but most importantly… your insight and critique is always spot on! Please please please keep it up! Great writing and great production and just overall great fun. I’d love to see you review one of the 2d20 systems (like Achtung Cthulhu or Fallout) if you get the chance.
GIving more not less is such fundamental lesson I've learned as a GM of literally any game system.
I'd definitely play, "Fights in the Car Park" The Roleplaying Game TM!
Also, the stupid idea is a great one. Some of the best roleplaying games have got a 'players shouldn't read this bit' section of their book so the GM can surprise the players and the players will understand that their characters aren't meant to know everything.
You know there is a system just for that right?
@@himurogentoku7117 for fights in the car park or the second bit?
that metamorphasis alpha ad was top tier hilarious on so many levels
I’ve been so excited for this upload since I found your channel two weeks ago! I literally watched all the videos in a couple hours 😂
Also, love the hat.
@Quinn "Ran like a shrimp's poop vein throughout the entire evening" is my new favorite simile! Thanks for another outstanding review!
I like the opening so much. Never skip it
God I look forwards to each new video from this channel. Love the vibe, love the set, love the topic, love the Quinn!
I do like the idea of failure leads to the monster advancing towards its next stage. Changing failures into "Portents" builds suspense. Definitely sounds like a lot of division between rules and the world
Truly the best TH-cam going, thanks Quinns
Thank you! I got Vaesen with the best of intentions but when I read it I really felt like something was missing. I thought it was just me being dense but you’ve nailed it- there is a big chunk of important info missing
Glad to see the mid-review turnaround is alive and well
I think you hit the nail on the head. I really wish Vaesen had more tools for the GM to run this very unique vision of a game.
It's nice to see a more critical review on the channel. While I love the 20 minute hype speeches the games this far have received, I feel this reminds me of why I trust Quinn's to tell me their honest opinions.
Thanks for this. One of my players has asked to play this game. Reading the book, I had many of the concerns you talked about in the video. I’ll definitely be preparing those “investigator note sheets” you showed. That’s a great idea!
I loooooooooooove Vaesen! I just wish the core book gave the GMs more tools to craft their own adventures than what's already there. I can definitely see though the problems with the system and the execution that you bring up in the video. The system is definitely showing its age and the investigation is not always detailed enough. And the core book for Vaesen specifically feels a bit bare-bones, it's there to provide rules and setting for published adventures - at least that's how it feels to me.
P.S. I see that Cloud Empress just sitting there in the background, staring at me... Is it a hint that a Cloud Empress review is coming?! ;)
I am also waiting for a cloud empress review!
The surprisingly common puzzle of the setting and plot being interesting, so long as you replace every part of the mechanics with the ones from a different game.
Thank you, Quinn!
I'm living in Uppsala for several years already not knowing there a game exists that actually based in this city! How cool that is! I already have some great ideas of how to encourage my players to actually explore the real Uppsala for finding clues in the game. So excited to play it, thank you for this review!
I intend to run Vaesen for one of my playgroups. I was having a hard time thinking about how to get them familiar with the vaesen without just doing exposition and I LOVED the idea of blanking parts of the monster pages. Great stuff, thanks for the awesome vid as always :)
The “What were you thinking?” Interview section was missing, so the publisher jumped into the comments.
Thank you for the honest review!
I love the Year Zero Engine, coincidentally I was listening to Vaesen actualplay just yesterday.
It's good to know the pros and cons of the game.
Thank you Quinns for playing all these ttrpgs so that I can find new ones to share with my friends!
Were you unable to schedule a "What were you thinking?" segment this time? I can imagine time constraints may be an issue for that to be a regular feature.
I really enjoy your videos. The hard work is noticed and appreciated.
continues to make me long for a parallel universe where I have people to play this sort of thing with. Keep this stellar stuff coming!
So idk if it's interesting to know but vaesen started out as an art book by Johan Egerkrans and was then adapted into an rpg. I think the intention is for the players to use that book as a sort of handbook to investigate Vaesen.
I'd redact things a lot but use scratch off tape so that if the players wanted to investigate specific things they could and then scratch off to find the answer. As they built up this knowledge their reference sheets would become more and more valuable. Even if this Vaesen wasn't a farie, next weeks might be and now you're research last game is paying off now!
I've been checking the channel almost daily, waiting for a new ttrpg video. I couldn't be happier!
In the investigation genre of TTRPGs I’ve been absolutely loving the Carved from Brindlewood games. Highly collaborative, much less mentally demanding. I’m running two games a week right now: Brindlewood Bay, old ladies solving murders, and Public Access, a group of 20-somethings looking into a disappeared tv station in the desert of New Mexico. Highly recommend.
Edit: oh god I did the annoying talk about and recommend something else. This comment was inspired by Quinn’s mention of how much effort it took to run a mystery. CfB games alleviate that a lot by placing it onto the players more equally
Brindlewood Bay is on my to-do list. Excited to do that!
I'm a fan but I've seen some people online very against the way it does things, saying stuff like "if it doesn't have a pre-set solution, it's not actually a mystery" (which imo is bollocks, but I'm old enough to usually be able to avoid wasting my time arguing with people on the internet)
It seems like the Gumshoe system in general, and Esoterrorist in this specific situation, have solved some of the problems. Using a resource-spent system to guarantee success, but making it harder and harder and overall having 30+ investigation skills so even a group of 5 people all 5 people can be in the spotlight a decent number of times. You had Trail of Cthulhu in there.
Does Vaesen help in explaining a successful investigation? In Esoterrorist solving the mystery and hiding the mystery from the public is often enough without a forced showdown.
Although Robin D. Laws intro to investigation pnp is pretty good at explaining the difference to dungeon crawling.
Vaesen sounds interesting to me because I love detective fiction. This also reminds me a bit of Jim Butcher and his Harry Dresden series, which is great on audible with Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, James Marsters, reading the books. Though I do seriously doubt I could get any of my friends to play this, since they have so many groups they are playing with, and i am only down to one game every other week.
A house leveling up, reminds me of the house that Dice Camera Action group ended up with in Waterdeep.
Yet again I start watching the episode and before I'm half way through I am on the publishers websites taking a look, or even downloading any free starter versions! Enjoying looking through the information and the art and then seeing if this is the next RPG book I can buy, read and then never get to play.
I completely agree when it comes to the year zero engine, it's really good when you're trying a bit of everything and can tackle a problem from different angles, makes sense why it wouldn't work out a as well here.
Thanks for another amazing review!
I definitely agree with the point that investigative rpgs are harder to run than a sword and sorcery game. Personally I find trying to make a mystery hit that sweet spot between not being super easy and not being incredibly confusing for players is really hard.
The real mystery is how there's a man alive without a roll of duct tape readily available in his house.
I'm a huge fan of Vaesen and hope it gets more love. I've often used CoC as a way to get new people into trpgs because sometimes people hear the term and think the kids in stranger things talking about wizards and elves and thats not for everyone. But a mystery in a 'realistic' setting is much easier to grab people. Granted it helps CoC is a single roll based on a percentage and honestly has the best new player starter box on the market but i think elements Vaesen uses like the home base and the idea of "maybe we can resolve this with parley with the hildefolk instead of fight or flight" allows for more resolutions than CoC does and i think thats something deserves more love. I hope it continues to grow and we get more setting books. One about the americas and how traditional beliefs were carried over and changed with people in appalacchia believing in their own version of a kobold or mine gnome could raise some interesting ideas about how the vaesen are adapting in places as well as clashing with the rise of industry for example. I think my only major critique is lack of guides and tools for creating your own investigations. Stuff that seems obvious when you've been doing it for years if not decades in games like CoC might be totally unknown to a beginner used to the more dungeon crawl power fantasy stuff and i think its a shame there isn't a more substantial -at least as of the last time i checked in on new releases- guide going "so, you want to have your friends running in circles for five hours".
Great review. I love harsh reviews which focus on the flaws of the game, because they highlight the issues that demand more creativity from the GM and the players. I had the same issues Quinn talks about. But since it was my first time as a GM, I didn't know if it was just me or really some elements of the game itself. Yes, GMing felt like landing a plane. But it was my own story, and it was so fun, emotional and rewarding. I love this game, despite all that it's missing from the core rulebook.
The whole "iron coin to this little girl's head" thing just makes me imagine an investigator doing the coin behind the ear magic trick to every child they see, just in case they're a fairy.