Thumbs up for the missed cat pun opportunity in the outro (live long and prospurr)...my script editor won't be happy about that one! 🤣 Also, what did you guys think of the newish editing style? 👀
The first time a human ambassador visited Kzinti, he brought a gift contained within a secure crate. The Kzinti ambassador opened the crate, removed the gift, and immediately crawled into the crate.
I do have a question for all that like to laugh at a feline's affection for boxes. HAVE YOU EVER SPENT SOME TIME IN ONE??? Writing for felinoid characters I have and I have to tell you it IS a very peaceful experience! You ARE protected on all sides but one, as long as the box is open or lidless. If it has a lid, it is the perfect place to hide and wait to attack some unwary person. If it is hot out, it is shade, if it is stormy, it is protection from wind and rain.
The problem with fitting the Kzinti into Star Trek is that there is an extremely complex history between them and humanity in Larry Niven's work. There is a whole book series detailing the Man-Kzin wars and the fact that humanity doesn't have FTL travel at first and how humanity acquires the technology to turn the tide is a big plot point. So simply trying to transplant that whole history into Star Trek just never really worked.
That's true! But it's possible to transplant the species and culture without also transplanting their whole Known Space history. TAS is not canon, as far as I know.
Why would the wars happening slightly differently be such a problem? There were apparently few sublight(and possibly non-warp FTL) colony ships launched before WW3 and after meeting Vulcans in 2063 United Earth was mostly doing stuff alone for 98 years before Federation was formed, so there was plenty of time for Earth or human colonies to be invaded by Kzin without it becoming "the UFP-Kzin wars". FTL is very common in Trekverse so Kzin could have had it too, but even if they were at first limited to sublight travel so Star Fleet would have obvious speed advantage, the FTL used back then was _slow_. If Earth was invaded in 2150's and Captain Archer's Enterprise immediately left Alpha Centauri to help, Sol local defense fleet would have to hold on for 12 days before the designated heroes brought the Plot Device Of The Week to save the day. This is not that different from the books where every system was isolated, though the wars would not last for years. OTOH, Trek humanity is not into huge orbital defenses and PDF fleets so the battles likely involved plenty of refitting civilian vessels with cobbled together weapons systems, which would also be very similar to what happened in Niven's novels... The only real problem with fusing the two settings is that there should be other Trek races nearby, so why is it they only seem to have had wars against humans? Kzin do not really get the idea of giving up or admitting an enemy is too tough, so how come they managed to miss attacking Vulcans or Andorrans and getting wiped out by these more advanced and more aggressive(or more coldly calculating in Vulcan's case) races? Maybe it involved Romulan spies(always a safe assumption) or Kzin attacked humans to get resources for their planned war against Klingons, but given Kirk's crew was only interested in how they were involved with Earth we'll never know.
I prefer to believe that the Kzinti appearing in Star Trek are just coincidentally identical to those in the Known Space series, the same way every sci-fi setting seems to have a hairless ape called hoo-mans.
What I learned from the man kzin wars is that the kzinti are another how-are-they-not-too-dumb-to-build-spaceships aliens. Like klingons. Or saiyans. Or the aliens from that dumb L Ron Hubbard one, I think it was called battleship Earth, or battlefield Earth or something. They're also not very cat-like, they "scream and leap" and are impulsive and impatient, but actually cats are pretty levelheaded and if anything far more patient than humans, I've seen a cat wait patiently for agonizing minutes for prey to be in the right spot. The whole man kzin series is just humanity self-flagellating saying 'oh look how awesome humans are, we're so clever, we overcome any obstacle!' So it's not some great and masterful work of art as you seem to think. Neither one is, not star trek or larry niven's known space.
They could go for that being an alternative universe, suggestively one where Zephram Cochrane perished in WW3, hench no warpdrive. With warpdrive humanity/The Federation meet them closer to their homeworld.
Fun fact; Caitian and their planet Cait are derived from the Gaelic mythical cat known for spreading bad luck known as "cait-sith". The mythical creature is pronounced "cat-shee" so ideally the species should be pronounced "cat" and the planet "cat-shen" / "cat-shee-en". Yep, even Final Fantasy gets it wrong 😅.
@fiktivhistoriker345 yeah, in Old Brythonic (the language that developed into modern Welsh, Breton, Scots Gaelic and Irish), 'Sith' means 'faerie'. And these are not your Victorian, sanitised, little-girls-in-flower-dresses-and-butterfly-wings type fairies. Celtic faeries were a step down from demons, utter monsters who torment humans for their own amusement and genuinely don't understand why it's wrong (demons at least recognise human morality, even if they then choose to ignore it - faeries don't even understand what morality IS). The Fae are the villains in most Celtic mythology, so no wonder Lucas adopted the word 'Sith' for his own villains - the whole of Star Wars is rooted in ancient (and less ancient) mythologies. Han and Luke are basically a deconstruction of Gilgamesh (thanks to Joseph Campbell).
@@stifynbaker2914 Interesting, Never heard this word referenced in Welsh, only ever the term 'tylwyth teg' although that might be a more specific term. If so, it makes the South Waleian lads that started a Jedi order even funnier!
1:53 M'ress and T'ana are different Caitian ethnicities. M'ress's ancestors come from one of the equatorial islands where it's hot and sunny, so they are taller and have digitigrade feet as a means of heat regulation. While T'ana's ancestors come from the northern islands where it's colder and overcast, so they are stockier and have plantigrade feet as a means of heat conservation.
i like the idea that they are different kinds of cats depending on where they are from: cats are super adaptable and the only real difference between your housecat and a lion is that lions had to evolve bigger and in groups while housecats evolved to be small enough not to be a threat to the humans that feed and shelter them.
-+@@PungiFungi This is what I thought would have made for the best way to canonically explain the differences between TOS Klingons and those from TMP onwards; the plainer swarthy makeup TOS Klingons are from a conquered world now part of the Klingon Empire, whose culture eventually embraced and adopted Klingon culture and earned their place in the ranks of the Klingon space service, accepted by the Klingon culture at large.
I recently read it short story by Larry Niven in which a few Kzinti finally learn respect for humanity as a species. They are given permission by Earth Gov (I know, that's a B5 reference) to explore the untamed African Veldt. When there they slip away from their guide and, unarmed, take on a pride of lions. The Kzinti who survive have a new deep found respect for humans, realizing that our human ancestors dealt with lions.
Larry Niven’s “Man-Kzin Wars” was a great series. Leap and scream, or was it scream and leap? It was neat seeing Kzin/Kzinti in the ST-TAS. It would be neat to see more of them in Trek.
Take on a pride of lions? NO, thats not what happened. Thats what the Kzin expected to happen. A single lone lion followed them as they tried to escape and picked them off. The survivors earned the respect.
This is typical "kzinti are too dumb to live" Man-Kzin wars writing. They are essentially furry space orks, just dumber, when HFY writers get ahold of them.
I have been a huge Larry Niven fan myself also for many decades. I always thought it was pretty cool that he brought the Kzinti into the Trek universe via the animated series!
@@nixboox Where did you get the idea that Larry didn't want to work with TAS?Noy being sarcastic here,as I recall reading that was actually kinda happy about it.I'd have to go digging thru his books to get his actual words tho,
I had read a bunch of the known space stuff before running into star trek, so Kzinti always surprised and confused me. I had no idea one was in lower decks though, gonna have to go rewatch those!
@@neeneko I've tried to watch it....just could not get into it. It's like a Star Trek version of Rick and Morty. Now don't misconstrue me, I'm a big fan of R&M, but trying to emulate it as a Star Trek series is just ....well....NO.
@@montylc2001 huh. I actually found it to be the most TNG of star treks lately. Not really seeing anything Rick and Morty about it other than both are comedies set in sci-fi universes.
Started reading Niven when I worked for the Hiway Dept. in '73 with the Neutron Star and then Ringworld. We were on the road all week and people borrowed books when I finished. A lot of new Niven Fans were created during that era. I've got over 50 of his books and collaborations with Pournelle etc.
One thing you can always count on: the longer a franchise continues, the greater the chance of cat people... Kzinti (Ringworld), Caitians (Star Trek), Futars (Dune), Cathars (Star Wars), Felinids (WH40K), Kilrathi (Wing Commander), Mrrshans (Master of Orion), Tabaxi (D&D), Thunderians (ThunderCats), Kerrans (EverQuest), Khajiit (Elder Scrolls), The Na'vi (Avatar), Ctarl-Ctarl (Outlaw Star), The Puma Sisters (Tank Police), Merle (Escaflowne), Prince Thun (Flash Gordon), Irena Dubrovna (The Cat People), Selina Kyle (Catwoman), Felicia Hardy (Black Cat), Felicia (Darkstalkers), The X5 Series (Dark Angel), The Cheetah People (Doctor Who), Hermione Granger that one time... The Magical Mr Mistoffelees.
Same could be said for bird people, as we have the Rito from the Zelda franchise making a surprising reappearance in the latest games despite being MIA since Wind Waker, not to mention the Fosh in Star Wars, to name but a few.
Well, cats are rather alien themselves, while still being appealing. They have interesting features and traits. They are familiar enough that you can just have them do things without people asking why. They can be friendly or dangerous or both, and whichever you choose isn't going to throw the audience. You can have a human character hook up with a cat person without a lot of questions. Plus, in a cheap live action production, you buy some kitty ear headbands and claim they wrap their tails around their waists to avoid accidents with doors. Bam, new species.
@@georgeandrews1394 Oh, I didn't even get into the whole talking cats thing: like Thackery Binx (Hocus Pocus), Salem (Sabrina the Teenage Witch), Luna & Artemis (Sailor Moon), Jiji (Kiki's Delivery Service), Multiple Clans of the things (Warriors)... When I finally finished reading the original 6 Dune novels, I thought I was going to be proud of Frank Herbert for not having cat people. And then, like clockwork, they showed up right at the end.
@@georgeandrews1394 They're also very likely to be pure carnivores and predatory (like the K'zin). It's not hard to imagine a feline species becoming intelligent enough to start making weapons to extend their reach.
Heck yeah. T’Ana is probably my favourite Lower Decks character. I’ve always thought the Caitian makeup in TVH was supremely excellent as well. Especially because it showcased a brown longhair version and black shorthair version of the makeup!
Curious that the very old Starfleet Command series had Kzinti, and Lyrans, who were clearly cat people. It even suggested they were related. Sounds like there may have been a diaspora of proto "cat" people sometime in the past.
The Lyrans were created for the Star Fleet Battles table top game, which was subsequently used as the basis for the Star Fleet Command computer game. Amarillo Design Bureau, publisher of Star Fleet Battles, licensed the material from TOS and TAS. FASA then took over the license for everything from the first movie on. Both the Lyrans and their Hated-Enemy-Who-Will-Not-Be-Named (Kzinti - or "Mirak" in Star Fleet Command) were possibly descended from an earlier race called the Carnivons. Star Fleet Battles lore diverged completely from even TAS and none was used in TAS, which is a shame. I would have liked to have seen The Golden Fleet of the Lyrans and an Expanding Sphere Generator appear in TAS.
I'm not sure anyone mentioned it in 351 posts but the Kzinti captain wasn't just upset that he was hurt, but who hurt him. Vulcans are vegetarians and presumed pacifist (not understanding Spock was trained by Starfleet in the same way they ignored Uhura for being female) so for a vegitarian pacifist to hurt a "superior" meat-eating warrior was something he didn't want to get out. So it became more personal for him. Fun fact: Majel Barrett voiced M'Ress when she stood in for Uhura at communications but I don't remember seeing them in the same episode.
Uhura and M'Ress have both been in the same episodes, but M'Ress is Uhura's relief officer and thus is on when Uhura's off duty. Examples of them in the same episode are "Once Upon a Planet", where M'Ress takes over communications while Uhura is trapped on the Amusement Park Planet by the Caretaker computer, and in Season 2's "The Practical Joker" when M'Ress is again on-duty while Uhura is with McCoy and Sulu in the Enterprise holodeck (recreational room), a rare example showing M'Ress off duty with Arex in the mess hall while Uhura is on duty.
This comes from the original story as well. In the original story, it was Nessus, a Pierson’s Puppeteer, who injured Chuft-Captain. Puppeteers are also vegetarian, and not so much “pacifist” as “cowardly.” Nessus, however, was manic-depressive, and worked his way into a manic state to attack with his hind leg. (Just as Spock may be pacifist, but he will employ violence if it’s logical to do so.)
One of my favorite pieces of tech introduced in the animated series were those belts that produced a personal forcefield/ environment suit. It just made a lot of sense and would be terrific in an emergency aboard ship too. Who wants the future full of bulky space suits?
We've seen gas-retaining force-fields elsewhere in the Trek (not to mention Star Wars) universe (in place of shuttlecraft bay doors, a Voyager episode where one closed off a hole blown into the bridge, a window in ST: First Contact), but a minor power failure means you're screwed. IIRC, that tech exists late in Niven's Known Space too, but not used in those ways for the same reason. In battle, if something disables that tech, you want *physical* doors and windows preventing decompression...
I like Star Trek Online's take on the lore: Kzinti (named Ferasans, due to legal rights issues) were the people who decided to go all-in on genetic modification, while the Caitians rejected that and split off on their own. It explains why Kzinti/Ferasans are so different from their "cousins," and their overall aggressive nature.
In Starfleet Command, based on the Starfleet Universe, the Kzinti are called Mirak. And in SFC and Star Fleet Battles there is a second, non-Paramount cannon feline race, The Lyran Empire. And they share a mutual hatred of each other in that universe, being the flashpoint many wars.
If humans can and have interbred with Klingons, then you can bet that humans have done it with the cat people. It's clear that humans will hump anything in the Star Trek universe.
Lt. M'Ress rocks!! Brings back memories of watching the animated series as a kid. I've always been fascinated by the Caitians, as I'm also a cat lover. Thanks for sharing this video! 😸😻😻🖖🖖🖖
i'd love to see some more of Niven's creations in Trek, it would be interesting to see the Pak, Pierson's Puppeteers, or even the ringworld, in more Trek media.
@@zanderwohl definitely, especially if anyone tried to reach their rosette, cause they'd have to respond at that point, but they've learned their species doesn't have souls, so they are unimaginably cautious about everything, and i would imagine that extends to combat and warfare.
@@zanderwohl Except they're extreme cowards, so much to the point that they consider courage a type of mental illness. If they would be villains, it would be behind a number of other proxy villains.
Everyone always says that. "Real aliens would look nothing like that." Imagine if your elbow was 6 inches lower. Now take a drink of water. Right? You can't. There are certain forms that work and the humanoid shape is very efficient. We can walk around while holding things. Make stuff. Look at all the other intelligent animals on earth. A dolphin can't make anything no matter how smart he is. Elephants, maybe but it would be harder for them to solder small electronics and such. And with only one arm, their trunk, everything becomes more difficult. Two hands works very well. And it's not impossible they'd have an intelligence evolve from a feline like species. Convergent evolution. So, what would they look like? I've read All Tomorrows and looked at the pictures. There are very strange forms that don't seem to me to be viable. There are things that resemble animals and they take on a similar role as the animal. Then there are the human like things. How else could an intelligent being look? Unless it could manipulate objects with its mind or something, humans are a good fit. We can build spaceships and we really can. So what would it look like? No ever answers that.
Funny you mention that. There is a "non-canonical" book that describes the "Whale Probe or Cetacean Probe" as being developed by a highly advanced race of super dolphins. It was sort of an interrogation probe that was sent to find other cetaceans throughout the galaxy, and determine if they were evolving. It was sent after a vicious attack by the Borg on their homeworld. The super dolphins managed to repel an initial Borg invasion, however in a sort of revenge, the Borg somehow lowered the output of their planet's sun. This caused the dolphins to shatter their own moon to create ships and escape. I've always wondered if they either had a powerful telekinetic mind that could alter matter. Or that they did this until technology was developed that could allow them cybernetic "arms and hands" that could let them work. They could have also obtained it from Orion merchant ships, or other races nearby. Spock seemed to be able to communicate with the Whale Probe and it seemed to have a lot of damage to its memory banks. It thought of mammals as "mites" but was persuaded to tone down its call for fear it would destroy whole civilizations. It nearly destroyed Earth. Also, there are dolphins currently serving in Starfleet in mostly navigational and Stellar Cartography. In the book "Dark Mirror" a genius dolphin scientist named Hwii was a superstring expert. He used "manipulators" that contained smart metal that allowed him to have hands and could manipulate them as adept as any human or humanoid.
@@deathstrike You understand what I mean clearly. It's not that unlikely that we might see humanoids from other worlds. Of course we might have to broaden our idea of what it means to be humanoid. Species 8472 is considered non humanoid but it has two arms and hands a head and legs just like us. Three legs which is odd but it's still more or less a human shape. Just alien.
REMEMBER the face scar SULU had in the mirror universe??? There is a cartoon that shows he got it while making love to M'Ress! And in the comics, he and M'Ress were a item!
Originally the Kzinti were supposed to be the main alien villains for Star Trek, but 3 meter tall bipedal tigers would prove to be far more challenging than make-up and costuming could handle at the time. The Klingons ended up becoming the easier to costume compromise. If you include the games, there is a third “cat” species in the Lyrans for Star Trek. The Lyrans were more early medieval Japan (North and South Courts) than the more Viking-esque Kzinti. Both were sentient eaters. Sthondat lymph was the drug needed by some of the Kzinti (empaths) telepaths, it was highly and fatally addictive to the users. We kinda got to see the Kzinti in the Kilrathi of Wing Commander. Have to agree in hoping to see “Known Space” come to the small or big screen, especially if any “citizens” were to pop up in the series.
I don't know if "Known Space" could be transferred to the movie or TV screens. This is because Larry Niven had/has a weird imagination. The weirdest species that he created is the Pierson's Puppeteers. That said, I'd love to see such a TV series just to see if SFX artists could create the different species accurately.
As a kid, I loved knowing that cat people existed on Star Trek, and that Thundera was out there somewhere. (Eternia, Cybertron, Oa, Krypton.) Imaginations run wild.
Incidentally, the hormonal Caitian thing was not actually an invention of Lower Decks, but actually an Alan Dean Foster novelization of the TAS episodes in which he padded out several plotlines with original story content to satisfy publisher demands. Whether Lower Decks KNEW about that or coincidentally came up with the same idea on their own, I don't know...
I like to include Star Trek Online's Ferasans into the mix as well, which presents a fascinating potential history of repeated, engineered, genetic divergences within Caitian/Ferasan/Kzinti history. One element I also like is the implication that shows up now and then that the Caitians, contrary to many Trek Species, are also a species with incredible cultural diversity, much like Humans on earth. It is certainly noted that they get along quite well with humans.
I read several of Larry Niven's Known Space stories before TAS came out, and was thrilled to find Kzinti in it. I loved the way that the episode made the Caitians related to the Kzinti the way that the Vulcans are related to the Romulans. I didn't realize that later Star Trek productions depicted Caitians in the background of some scenes. Actually scratch that (pun intended) I now recall that Lower Decks has a Caitian character, but I'd forgotten. 🙂
One of the things I've always found most frustrating is how few actual alienlike species we see in Trek despite sci-fi being full of anthropomorphic species.
In the movies and TV series, the cost to have wildly different alien species would likely be horrendous. However, in the books, anything is possible -- it just depends on the author's imagination. That being said, I agree that more could be shown now in "ST:SNW".
I tend to presume there might be a whole lot out there but they might be less interested in humanoid affairs/under prime directive cause not toolusers, etc.
With the development of digital overlaying, today's film making can produce 'alien' and non-human characters... see Lord of the Rings and Smaug the Dragon.
@@franksmedley7372 It's still not *cheap* to do so, and frankly, I think it was a mistake to decide to try to restyle species like Andorians and Klingons to seemmore 'alien,' (Especially by making Andorians' faces like the face-prosthetics alien-of the week people when they didn't need to. (major pet peeve of mine.) But I think that's why they're backing off of that. There's a lot of mostly-humanoid people out there, that's part of Star Trek. I mean, I always think of Ensign Nahrat from some novels, he's a Horta, and yaknow, those melty-rock people don't really do much spacefaring but he's there cause he's *curious* about humanoids and space, that's cool. But yaknow, Horta never seem to have gone to space, mostly do Horta things and think Horta thoughts, I guess. I mean, maybe they could do more encounters with incomprehensibly-weird beings but it'd probably mostly just be learning how to say hi. :)
My headcanon is that the 1st Kzinti war happened while both species were limited to warp 1-2. The vulcans stepping in would have been the parallel to the Crashlander Colony buying FTL tech from the Outsiders and accidently ending the first man Kzin war. The other wars would have been pushing Kzinti space back to their current borders. The Kzinti ALWAYS attack before they are ready, and thus provoked the federation expands in responce.
I would love to see the Caitians show up in Strange New Worlds, maybe even character of M'ress. The Caitians have always been my favorite Trek aliens. I always play a Caitian character, ever since I played the Lincoln Enterprise games back in the early 70's. There were actually 2 Caitian Admirals in ST 3. The orange lion colored one, and a black panther one.
Live action Caitians or Kziniti are still too hard to pull off on a regular series budget, even SNW's, and CGI always still looks really fake when trying render complex hair or fur. Hence why M'Ress, T'Ana and other Caitian's the Kzinti work so well in the animation style of TAS and Lower Decks.
Glad to see that an image of the Kzinti SCS (Space Control Ship) made an appearance. I love the design of those ships from Starfleet Battles and I still have an extensive collection those miniatures including most of the Kzinti ships from that game.
The Kzinti Telepathic ability in Niven's books was dependent on an addictive drug. That & the tiring(?) effect made Telepath a very low caste; regarded with contempt even.
@@hansisbrucker813 No it is an extract from the lymph of a creature called a Sthondat. The word translates as "unfit for Kzinti consumption" and used as an insult as well. If the Kzinti want to get drunk, they drink Sour Milk!
You say it's unlikely aliens would look like cats, but there have been claims of cat-like aliens visiting Earth, and they are supposed to be helpful to humanity.
Personally have two characters in STO - one Caitian and one Ferasan (Kzinti). The Caitian flies a Caitian carrier named the "Kitten Beemu" and the Ferasan flies a Ferasan warship named the "Can Haz Cheezburger".
Fun part is the etymology - digit refers to the digits i.e. fingers/toes, and plantar refers to the sole of the foot (both from the Latin roots). "-grade" comes from the Latin *gradus* which means step/pace, so digiti-grade is stepping with the toes, and planti-grade is stepping with the soles! The more you know *woo*
I'd never heard about Caitians, but have heard little about the Kzinti, and outside of Starfleet Battles, did hear about the Lyrians, cousins to the Kzinti.
There's a Doctor Who novel called "Invasion of the Cat-People" - on one page it cites various Cat-People races, including Caitians, Kzinti, metamorphic cats of the Aegis (i.e. Iris from Assignment: Earth), and Lion-Men from Mongo lol
It is nice to see Taylor on Lower Decks. Niven and the Man-Kzin wars authors lean heavily into the "Kzinti have room temperature IQs" and the "Humanity is superior" trope and it's good that Taylor seems as smart as his colleagues.
Here is a secret we cats know, WE know all about your pointer toy BUT we like to humor you poor, furless, half blind, half deaf creatures any time we get the chance!
I almost named my feline overlord 'Speaker to Animals' or 'Chmeee'. That was the most powerful feline character I could think of but was too obscure and no one knew the reference. I settled on 'Shere Khan Magnus' instead. It's only slightly less obscure, but he certainly grew into it. He's a big chonky 12 year old ginger tabby. 🐈👑✌️🖖 He passed away on Feb 12 2024 after a short illness. There's a cat shaped hole where my heart goes now. 😿🐈🌈🌁🕊️
Great video! Humans and Kzinti first met in the timeline that had Zefram Cochrane being from Alpha Centauri as stated in the OS episode "Metamorphosis."
According to Larry Niven, the Kzinti were fierce and honourable. Their main problem was they had such great opinions of themselves that they always attacked Earth before they were actually ready. In Niven's stories and novels, they were, in my opinion, the most interesting alien race.
"Scream and leap" didn't work with the "furless monkeys," whose unarmed space vessels could nonetheless defend themselves quite effectively with their communications lasers. =^[.]^=
@@Raycheetah Yeah, you're right there. The Kzinti were shocked when "weaponless" Earth vessels would cut Kzinti warships in half by "turning tail". That happened in the first Niven Kzinti story I read in "The Shape of Space" seemingly aeons ago.
I think the Klingons and the Kzinti have very similar ideas on honor. For example in a Next Gen episode we learn Klingons do not take hostages. In the Niven books we learn the Kzinti MIGHT eat you BUT that will NEVER torture you. In fact they look upon any creature that does with great disdain!
@@Capohanf1 In Niven's "The Soft Weapon", the Human characters find a stasis box containing what the man decides is a Slaver artefact/weapon, but one with a surprise twist: it's mutable and, after seeing several of its forms, the man realizes it's not for a soldier but for a spy. He quickly realizes that it will definitely have a destruct setting and prepares to protect his wife and himself. Then...BOOM! All Kzinti there dead...
One irony is that when Steven V. Cole created the Star Fleet Battles board cae in 1979, he was able to use elements of TOS, TAS, and even TMP (X ships). He thus was able to give us Larry Niven's Kzinti, yet either couldn't or chose not to, give us the Caitians, and instead gave us a third humanoid cat race called the Lyran, which are related to the Kzinti and hate them, but have their own space and are not part of the Federation. The depiction of the Lyrans actually looks more like the Kzinti than the Caitians do in TAS, and most of their ships have dual hulls, which is to say that their ships are mostly catamarans. 😀 In one further irony, when Amarillo Design Bureau, which publishes Star Fleet Battles, spun off a computer version of their game under the name of Star Fleet Command, it didn't have the right to use Kziinti and changed the name to Mirak.
This must have been noticed and talked about before but, I just noticed that in the cluster of buttons that Riker and La Forge are pushing during Zefram Cochrane first warp flight are two buttons labeled TOS-3 and TOS-8. Perhaps this was just Zefram Cochrane's way to honor "Those Old Scientists" ?
A favorite anime of mine is Cat Planet Cuties and a running gag is a group of people refusing to accept that first alien contact was with people that looked human but with cat ears and tails and even said that Trekkies would never accept the concept of lovely alien catgirls. (If anybody looks up CPC, it's not kid friendly.)
There is a lexicon of alien species that have visited in to visit this planet. This is an alien Lore. Star Trek lore. I've seen it and apparently there's a cat species of alien that is a benevolent
The Kzinti show up in multiple ST video games, but under various aliases, due to licencing issues. In Starfleet Command 2 the are called "Mirak" (along with their cat-race rivals, the Lyrans), in Klingon Academy they are called "Sha'kurians" and in Star Trek Online they are called "Ferasans". Considering their popularity, it's a shame Paramount never forked out the money to Niven for the IP. I suppose we could always argue they are all offshoots of the same race. It's also worth noting that in the 3rd season of ST:Enterprise there is a suspiciously Kzinti looking ship (based off SFB/SFC designs), but it's manned by human looking marauders. They may have been planning to have them on the show, but ran into licencing issues. A real shame, if that's the case.
I think it would be easy to slot in a brief “war” with the kzinti during the third world war, where there’s so much worldwide chaos that humanity as a collective isn’t fully aware of the events that took place until records are found later in federation history
In Niven's lore, the Kzin are hyper-aggressive, and their only way of reacting to other species is literally fight-or-flight. Fight if you think you can win, or run away if you think you would lose. Talking things out didn't even make sense to them. That attitude had to be toned down to make them work in Star Trek, but toning it down led to an identity crisis, because we already have Klingons as the iconic, aggressive, warrior race in Star Trek. There's one episode of Enterprise (I can't remember which at this moment, sadly) where they encountered a Klingon starship that refused to talk to them and reacted hyper-aggressively. I remember thinking, that's a textbook Kzin response. Parts of it were almost line-for-line adaptation from Niven's story about the first encounter with a Kzin ship. This must have been written as a Kzinti encounter, and then the studio ordered it changed to Klingons, because of course everybody knows and wants to see Klingons.
Love your vids that dive into these Star Trek subjects. Also I was thinking 'Will he mention the Kzinti in Star Fleet Battles I wonder?' and you did! 👍 Your subjects and in depth style kinda reminds me of Venom Geek Media's vids.
There was a book published in 1985 called Uhuru's Song that featured a felinoid race. Would they have been the Caitians? I don't recall the book ever saying what species they were and they weren't war-like like the Kzinti. Are you familiar with that book? I can't recall if it was canon or non-canon but I did enjoy it.
I think I remember that. It is the one where the landing party had to go through a test to show they were adults with a native called Jinx and Spock got pneumonia.
It's side-canon. Not part of any TV series or film but still considered part of the original series crew's five-year mission. In it are the Eeiauo'ans and their distant cousins. Two sequels were planned but a change in management and policy (no returning original characters) caused them to go unwritten.
@@lorriehicks7156 It was more like AIDS. The novel was written amidst the worst of the 80s AIDS crisis & its author felt more attention needed to be brought to the subject.
Another great feline species in Star Trek is the Eeiauoans from the original series novel "Uhura's Song", one of my favorite Star Trek novels and alien species.
1) I thought "Muress" was Em-Ress? Been a long time since I watched animated Star Trek. I do remember that Scotty got hit on by Lt M'Ress, and possibly had some off-screen rule 34 time with her. Thus justifying his "miracle worker" ability, yes that was the actual power he had according to the Star Trek trading card game. 2) I read some of the Man-Kzin Wars novels, I think they state that Humans and Kzin had 4 wars over the course of 300 years. Not sure where that canon and Star Trek Canon meet.
Yeah the Man Kzin wars were interesting. They thought mankind a easy target and really didn't understand deception in regards to war. They hit minefields, traps, and all kinds of nasty things left by the furless monkeys that left them decimated. They even expected humans to be weak hand to hand and wanted to rely on brute strength and claws and found out that we have all kinds of martial arts and melee weapons. A lot of alien species subjugated by the Kzin fled to Terran space and assisted the humans so Earth gained a lot of technology. There is a novel where one veteran Kzin starts to catch on and throws a bunch of cubs in a training jungle room and challenges them to defeat him. Basically he acts like the Predator. He then observes how they eventually start using pack tactics and relying on traps to defeat his great strength. Novel is also funny because human slaves are highly prized due to their dextrous fingers and I believe Vanilla Ice Cream and Whiskey are black market goods that the one Kzin general keeps trying to smuggle in to enjoy for himself.
Man I love your title. Loving the amount of content you've put out recently Tyler - thought the vid might be on Kzinti xD. Also very curious to hear your thoughts on the latest SNW episode (S2E3)!
I think the episode confirmed what I'd suspected they would do for awhile, shall we say, about the lore. I don't fully agree with the SNW writers' interpretation of the Temporal Cold War, but if Star Trek is meant to still be presented as a "possible future for humanity," it makes sense why they'd do this!
@@OrangeRiver Excellent! I personally loved it and all the tie-ins, and am quite impressed where SNW is going all things considered. ENT is still my favourite series though :D
Do us all a favor and make an episode on Star Fleet's rules on inter species sex. What's legal and why. What will be fatal despite what she tells you. What would work if it fit and it won't. We know Kirk tried everything. Did he get written up for it?
My theory on the Man /Kzin wars: 1. It was not humanity using sublight vesselts. The Kzinti basically used sleeper ships and cryogenics to conquer other worlds at the time. 2. It was not a war between Humans and Kzinti, but the Vulcans protecting earth from these sleeper ships. And maybe some DY-1000 Ships getting in the crossfire
We can still have a sublight war if it's soon after we get warp. But only experimental ships have warp. I mean it took decades to get a decent number of warp 1 and 2 ships. The majority of Earth warships probably only had impulse drives for a generation.
I only read the books, and consequently always assumed the k was silent therefore becoming (phonetically) the Zinti from Zin. I can see why a whole 'universe' could be grafted into the StarTrek timeline, and frankly I'd ignore the bulk of the anachronisms, there are plenty on trek anyway. In the end there are some excellent components to Niven's known space and, as suggested by others I'd like to see Ringworld. The cause of Ringworld's construction and the origin of the Protectors would however change much of Trek's premise and 'our' history.
Thumbs up for the missed cat pun opportunity in the outro (live long and prospurr)...my script editor won't be happy about that one! 🤣 Also, what did you guys think of the newish editing style? 👀
Happy Birthday, Tyler!
Might be a problem with your memory, I'll have to order you a CAT scan... xD
Nice to see a deep dive on Star Trek Cat-non
Sorry.
@@Rfk1966 Hope it goes better than the Titan. That was a Cat-astrophy!
The first time a human ambassador visited Kzinti, he brought a gift contained within a secure crate. The Kzinti ambassador opened the crate, removed the gift, and immediately crawled into the crate.
I heard it was a cardboard box.
I should have expected this one damnit, but lmao this caught me off guard.
I do have a question for all that like to laugh at a feline's affection for boxes. HAVE YOU EVER SPENT SOME TIME IN ONE??? Writing for felinoid characters I have and I have to tell you it IS a very peaceful experience! You ARE protected on all sides but one, as long as the box is open or lidless. If it has a lid, it is the perfect place to hide and wait to attack some unwary person. If it is hot out, it is shade, if it is stormy, it is protection from wind and rain.
The problem with fitting the Kzinti into Star Trek is that there is an extremely complex history between them and humanity in Larry Niven's work. There is a whole book series detailing the Man-Kzin wars and the fact that humanity doesn't have FTL travel at first and how humanity acquires the technology to turn the tide is a big plot point. So simply trying to transplant that whole history into Star Trek just never really worked.
That's true! But it's possible to transplant the species and culture without also transplanting their whole Known Space history. TAS is not canon, as far as I know.
Why would the wars happening slightly differently be such a problem? There were apparently few sublight(and possibly non-warp FTL) colony ships launched before WW3 and after meeting Vulcans in 2063 United Earth was mostly doing stuff alone for 98 years before Federation was formed, so there was plenty of time for Earth or human colonies to be invaded by Kzin without it becoming "the UFP-Kzin wars".
FTL is very common in Trekverse so Kzin could have had it too, but even if they were at first limited to sublight travel so Star Fleet would have obvious speed advantage, the FTL used back then was _slow_. If Earth was invaded in 2150's and Captain Archer's Enterprise immediately left Alpha Centauri to help, Sol local defense fleet would have to hold on for 12 days before the designated heroes brought the Plot Device Of The Week to save the day. This is not that different from the books where every system was isolated, though the wars would not last for years. OTOH, Trek humanity is not into huge orbital defenses and PDF fleets so the battles likely involved plenty of refitting civilian vessels with cobbled together weapons systems, which would also be very similar to what happened in Niven's novels...
The only real problem with fusing the two settings is that there should be other Trek races nearby, so why is it they only seem to have had wars against humans? Kzin do not really get the idea of giving up or admitting an enemy is too tough, so how come they managed to miss attacking Vulcans or Andorrans and getting wiped out by these more advanced and more aggressive(or more coldly calculating in Vulcan's case) races? Maybe it involved Romulan spies(always a safe assumption) or Kzin attacked humans to get resources for their planned war against Klingons, but given Kirk's crew was only interested in how they were involved with Earth we'll never know.
I prefer to believe that the Kzinti appearing in Star Trek are just coincidentally identical to those in the Known Space series, the same way every sci-fi setting seems to have a hairless ape called hoo-mans.
What I learned from the man kzin wars is that the kzinti are another how-are-they-not-too-dumb-to-build-spaceships aliens. Like klingons. Or saiyans. Or the aliens from that dumb L Ron Hubbard one, I think it was called battleship Earth, or battlefield Earth or something. They're also not very cat-like, they "scream and leap" and are impulsive and impatient, but actually cats are pretty levelheaded and if anything far more patient than humans, I've seen a cat wait patiently for agonizing minutes for prey to be in the right spot. The whole man kzin series is just humanity self-flagellating saying 'oh look how awesome humans are, we're so clever, we overcome any obstacle!'
So it's not some great and masterful work of art as you seem to think. Neither one is, not star trek or larry niven's known space.
They could go for that being an alternative universe, suggestively one where Zephram Cochrane perished in WW3, hench no warpdrive. With warpdrive humanity/The Federation meet them closer to their homeworld.
Fun fact; Caitian and their planet Cait are derived from the Gaelic mythical cat known for spreading bad luck known as "cait-sith".
The mythical creature is pronounced "cat-shee" so ideally the species should be pronounced "cat" and the planet "cat-shen" / "cat-shee-en".
Yep, even Final Fantasy gets it wrong 😅.
Wait, did i read "Sith"? OMG!
@fiktivhistoriker345 yeah, in Old Brythonic (the language that developed into modern Welsh, Breton, Scots Gaelic and Irish), 'Sith' means 'faerie'. And these are not your Victorian, sanitised, little-girls-in-flower-dresses-and-butterfly-wings type fairies. Celtic faeries were a step down from demons, utter monsters who torment humans for their own amusement and genuinely don't understand why it's wrong (demons at least recognise human morality, even if they then choose to ignore it - faeries don't even understand what morality IS). The Fae are the villains in most Celtic mythology, so no wonder Lucas adopted the word 'Sith' for his own villains - the whole of Star Wars is rooted in ancient (and less ancient) mythologies. Han and Luke are basically a deconstruction of Gilgamesh (thanks to Joseph Campbell).
I've never seen 'sith' as a variant of 'sidh'.
@@generalstrike7187 it's preserved in Welsh, which has the dipthong 'th' but doesn't have 'dh'.
@@stifynbaker2914 Interesting, Never heard this word referenced in Welsh, only ever the term 'tylwyth teg' although that might be a more specific term.
If so, it makes the South Waleian lads that started a Jedi order even funnier!
1:53 M'ress and T'ana are different Caitian ethnicities. M'ress's ancestors come from one of the equatorial islands where it's hot and sunny, so they are taller and have digitigrade feet as a means of heat regulation. While T'ana's ancestors come from the northern islands where it's colder and overcast, so they are stockier and have plantigrade feet as a means of heat conservation.
i like the idea that they are different kinds of cats depending on where they are from: cats are super adaptable and the only real difference between your housecat and a lion is that lions had to evolve bigger and in groups while housecats evolved to be small enough not to be a threat to the humans that feed and shelter them.
@@JT5555 I like the idea that not all alien planets have only one ethnic group.
-+@@PungiFungi This is what I thought would have made for the best way to canonically explain the differences between TOS Klingons and those from TMP onwards; the plainer swarthy makeup TOS Klingons are from a conquered world now part of the Klingon Empire, whose culture eventually embraced and adopted Klingon culture and earned their place in the ranks of the Klingon space service, accepted by the Klingon culture at large.
@@speeta a better explanation than some genetic experiment nonsense I heard about to explain away the differences.
I recently read it short story by Larry Niven in which a few Kzinti finally learn respect for humanity as a species. They are given permission by Earth Gov (I know, that's a B5 reference) to explore the untamed African Veldt. When there they slip away from their guide and, unarmed, take on a pride of lions. The Kzinti who survive have a new deep found respect for humans, realizing that our human ancestors dealt with lions.
From one of the Man/Kzin wars books.
Larry Niven’s “Man-Kzin Wars” was a great series. Leap and scream, or was it scream and leap? It was neat seeing Kzin/Kzinti in the ST-TAS. It would be neat to see more of them in Trek.
Love that concept. I'd love to read it.
Take on a pride of lions? NO, thats not what happened. Thats what the Kzin expected to happen. A single lone lion followed them as they tried to escape and picked them off. The survivors earned the respect.
This is typical "kzinti are too dumb to live" Man-Kzin wars writing. They are essentially furry space orks, just dumber, when HFY writers get ahold of them.
I have been a huge Larry Niven fan myself also for many decades. I always thought it was pretty cool that he brought the Kzinti into the Trek universe via the animated series!
He did but he didn't want to. The Slaver species was his too - which is also in that episode - and its stasis boxes.
@@nixboox Where did you get the idea that Larry didn't want to work with TAS?Noy being sarcastic here,as I recall reading that was actually kinda happy about it.I'd have to go digging thru his books to get his actual words tho,
Star Trek's Caitians wouldn't be related to Kzinti in Niven's universe. Kzinti females are not sentient so there couldn't a female Starfleet officer.
If we do see more of them, I hope they'll be depicted more like the art on the Man-Kzin Wars covers, than in the TAS episode...
@@abergethirty Perhaps the female lack of sentience is a derived trait, not an ancestral trait.
Been a fan of Larry Niven's works for decades. Anticipating more of the Kzinti in newer shows and movies.
Then more people will learn
that the Monkeys cheat.
I had read a bunch of the known space stuff before running into star trek, so Kzinti always surprised and confused me. I had no idea one was in lower decks though, gonna have to go rewatch those!
@@neeneko I've tried to watch it....just could not get into it. It's like a Star Trek version of Rick and Morty. Now don't misconstrue me, I'm a big fan of R&M, but trying to emulate it as a Star Trek series is just ....well....NO.
@@montylc2001 huh. I actually found it to be the most TNG of star treks lately. Not really seeing anything Rick and Morty about it other than both are comedies set in sci-fi universes.
Started reading Niven when I worked for the Hiway Dept. in '73 with the Neutron Star and then Ringworld. We were on the road all week and people borrowed books when I finished. A lot of new Niven Fans were created during that era. I've got over 50 of his books and collaborations with Pournelle etc.
One thing you can always count on: the longer a franchise continues, the greater the chance of cat people...
Kzinti (Ringworld), Caitians (Star Trek), Futars (Dune), Cathars (Star Wars), Felinids (WH40K), Kilrathi (Wing Commander), Mrrshans (Master of Orion), Tabaxi (D&D), Thunderians (ThunderCats), Kerrans (EverQuest), Khajiit (Elder Scrolls), The Na'vi (Avatar), Ctarl-Ctarl (Outlaw Star), The Puma Sisters (Tank Police), Merle (Escaflowne), Prince Thun (Flash Gordon), Irena Dubrovna (The Cat People), Selina Kyle (Catwoman), Felicia Hardy (Black Cat), Felicia (Darkstalkers), The X5 Series (Dark Angel), The Cheetah People (Doctor Who), Hermione Granger that one time...
The Magical Mr Mistoffelees.
Same could be said for bird people, as we have the Rito from the Zelda franchise making a surprising reappearance in the latest games despite being MIA since Wind Waker, not to mention the Fosh in Star Wars, to name but a few.
@@Jolis_Parsec I'm pretty sure there were Bird people in the Star Trek Animated Series as well, with "The Jihad" coming to mind.
Well, cats are rather alien themselves, while still being appealing. They have interesting features and traits. They are familiar enough that you can just have them do things without people asking why. They can be friendly or dangerous or both, and whichever you choose isn't going to throw the audience. You can have a human character hook up with a cat person without a lot of questions.
Plus, in a cheap live action production, you buy some kitty ear headbands and claim they wrap their tails around their waists to avoid accidents with doors. Bam, new species.
@@georgeandrews1394 Oh, I didn't even get into the whole talking cats thing: like Thackery Binx (Hocus Pocus), Salem (Sabrina the Teenage Witch), Luna & Artemis (Sailor Moon), Jiji (Kiki's Delivery Service), Multiple Clans of the things (Warriors)...
When I finally finished reading the original 6 Dune novels, I thought I was going to be proud of Frank Herbert for not having cat people. And then, like clockwork, they showed up right at the end.
@@georgeandrews1394 They're also very likely to be pure carnivores and predatory (like the K'zin). It's not hard to imagine a feline species becoming intelligent enough to start making weapons to extend their reach.
Heck yeah. T’Ana is probably my favourite Lower Decks character.
I’ve always thought the Caitian makeup in TVH was supremely excellent as well. Especially because it showcased a brown longhair version and black shorthair version of the makeup!
She's basically starfleet's equivalent of an overworked, stressed out ER doctor!
Eww, somebody that actually likes Lower Decks. 🤢
@@Jolis_Parsec many of us do.
Gato Sexo
Curious that the very old Starfleet Command series had Kzinti, and Lyrans, who were clearly cat people. It even suggested they were related. Sounds like there may have been a diaspora of proto "cat" people sometime in the past.
Agreed!
The Lyrans were created for the Star Fleet Battles table top game, which was subsequently used as the basis for the Star Fleet Command computer game.
Amarillo Design Bureau, publisher of Star Fleet Battles, licensed the material from TOS and TAS. FASA then took over the license for everything from the first movie on.
Both the Lyrans and their Hated-Enemy-Who-Will-Not-Be-Named (Kzinti - or "Mirak" in Star Fleet Command) were possibly descended from an earlier race called the Carnivons.
Star Fleet Battles lore diverged completely from even TAS and none was used in TAS, which is a shame. I would have liked to have seen The Golden Fleet of the Lyrans and an Expanding Sphere Generator appear in TAS.
When making a presentation to a roomful of Kzinti, NEVER EVER EVER use a laser pointer.
I'm not sure anyone mentioned it in 351 posts but the Kzinti captain wasn't just upset that he was hurt, but who hurt him. Vulcans are vegetarians and presumed pacifist (not understanding Spock was trained by Starfleet in the same way they ignored Uhura for being female) so for a vegitarian pacifist to hurt a "superior" meat-eating warrior was something he didn't want to get out. So it became more personal for him.
Fun fact: Majel Barrett voiced M'Ress when she stood in for Uhura at communications but I don't remember seeing them in the same episode.
Uhura and M'Ress have both been in the same episodes, but M'Ress is Uhura's relief officer and thus is on when Uhura's off duty. Examples of them in the same episode are "Once Upon a Planet", where M'Ress takes over communications while Uhura is trapped on the Amusement Park Planet by the Caretaker computer, and in Season 2's "The Practical Joker" when M'Ress is again on-duty while Uhura is with McCoy and Sulu in the Enterprise holodeck (recreational room), a rare example showing M'Ress off duty with Arex in the mess hall while Uhura is on duty.
This comes from the original story as well. In the original story, it was Nessus, a Pierson’s Puppeteer, who injured Chuft-Captain. Puppeteers are also vegetarian, and not so much “pacifist” as “cowardly.” Nessus, however, was manic-depressive, and worked his way into a manic state to attack with his hind leg. (Just as Spock may be pacifist, but he will employ violence if it’s logical to do so.)
One of my favorite pieces of tech introduced in the animated series were those belts that produced a personal forcefield/ environment suit. It just made a lot of sense and would be terrific in an emergency aboard ship too. Who wants the future full of bulky space suits?
The animators refused to draw the space suits, hence the belts.
We've seen gas-retaining force-fields elsewhere in the Trek (not to mention Star Wars) universe (in place of shuttlecraft bay doors, a Voyager episode where one closed off a hole blown into the bridge, a window in ST: First Contact), but a minor power failure means you're screwed.
IIRC, that tech exists late in Niven's Known Space too, but not used in those ways for the same reason. In battle, if something disables that tech, you want *physical* doors and windows preventing decompression...
@@stardolphin2 Notice however that since those force fields are invisible, you don't need an SFX budget to have them.
This tech will be useful for my Tholian character for "Star Trek: Adventures" when he's not on duty.
I like Star Trek Online's take on the lore: Kzinti (named Ferasans, due to legal rights issues) were the people who decided to go all-in on genetic modification, while the Caitians rejected that and split off on their own. It explains why Kzinti/Ferasans are so different from their "cousins," and their overall aggressive nature.
In Starfleet Command, based on the Starfleet Universe, the Kzinti are called Mirak. And in SFC and Star Fleet Battles there is a second, non-Paramount cannon feline race, The Lyran Empire. And they share a mutual hatred of each other in that universe, being the flashpoint many wars.
Man, can you imagine a live-action series set in Niven's Known Space? I would watch the shit out of that.
I second that motion!!! 🤠👍
If humans can and have interbred with Klingons, then you can bet that humans have done it with the cat people. It's clear that humans will hump anything in the Star Trek universe.
Kirk has entered the chat.
Lt. M'Ress rocks!! Brings back memories of watching the animated series as a kid. I've always been fascinated by the Caitians, as I'm also a cat lover. Thanks for sharing this video! 😸😻😻🖖🖖🖖
Thanks Paul!
i'd love to see some more of Niven's creations in Trek, it would be interesting to see the Pak, Pierson's Puppeteers, or even the ringworld, in more Trek media.
Pierson's Puppeteers are genuinely horrifying. They have potential to become massive villains.
@@zanderwohl definitely, especially if anyone tried to reach their rosette, cause they'd have to respond at that point, but they've learned their species doesn't have souls, so they are unimaginably cautious about everything, and i would imagine that extends to combat and warfare.
@@zanderwohl Except they're extreme cowards, so much to the point that they consider courage a type of mental illness. If they would be villains, it would be behind a number of other proxy villains.
Everyone always says that. "Real aliens would look nothing like that." Imagine if your elbow was 6 inches lower. Now take a drink of water. Right? You can't. There are certain forms that work and the humanoid shape is very efficient. We can walk around while holding things. Make stuff. Look at all the other intelligent animals on earth. A dolphin can't make anything no matter how smart he is. Elephants, maybe but it would be harder for them to solder small electronics and such. And with only one arm, their trunk, everything becomes more difficult. Two hands works very well. And it's not impossible they'd have an intelligence evolve from a feline like species. Convergent evolution. So, what would they look like? I've read All Tomorrows and looked at the pictures. There are very strange forms that don't seem to me to be viable. There are things that resemble animals and they take on a similar role as the animal. Then there are the human like things. How else could an intelligent being look? Unless it could manipulate objects with its mind or something, humans are a good fit. We can build spaceships and we really can. So what would it look like? No ever answers that.
Funny you mention that. There is a "non-canonical" book that describes the "Whale Probe or Cetacean Probe" as being developed by a highly advanced race of super dolphins. It was sort of an interrogation probe that was sent to find other cetaceans throughout the galaxy, and determine if they were evolving. It was sent after a vicious attack by the Borg on their homeworld. The super dolphins managed to repel an initial Borg invasion, however in a sort of revenge, the Borg somehow lowered the output of their planet's sun.
This caused the dolphins to shatter their own moon to create ships and escape. I've always wondered if they either had a powerful telekinetic mind that could alter matter. Or that they did this until technology was developed that could allow them cybernetic "arms and hands" that could let them work. They could have also obtained it from Orion merchant ships, or other races nearby. Spock seemed to be able to communicate with the Whale Probe and it seemed to have a lot of damage to its memory banks. It thought of mammals as "mites" but was persuaded to tone down its call for fear it would destroy whole civilizations. It nearly destroyed Earth. Also, there are dolphins currently serving in Starfleet in mostly navigational and Stellar Cartography. In the book "Dark Mirror" a genius dolphin scientist named Hwii was a superstring expert. He used "manipulators" that contained smart metal that allowed him to have hands and could manipulate them as adept as any human or humanoid.
@@deathstrike You understand what I mean clearly. It's not that unlikely that we might see humanoids from other worlds. Of course we might have to broaden our idea of what it means to be humanoid. Species 8472 is considered non humanoid but it has two arms and hands a head and legs just like us. Three legs which is odd but it's still more or less a human shape. Just alien.
I wish the video would have mentioned whether or not their fur goes all the way down. 😂
I think we can say with confidence that it does XD
Interspecies relations never stopped Kirk.
REMEMBER the face scar SULU had in the mirror universe??? There is a cartoon that shows he got it while making love to M'Ress! And in the comics, he and M'Ress were a item!
The first Kzinti to ever do a spacewalk hesitated for an hour at the open airlock, not sure whether to go out or come back inside.
In the Star Trek novel Uhura's Song you get the Sivoan and Eioan cat species. (Same species but one group were exiled from the homeworld )
Janet Hagan, 1985. Loved that book. Just looked at the cover price, $3.95. God, I miss those days..,
Originally the Kzinti were supposed to be the main alien villains for Star Trek, but 3 meter tall bipedal tigers would prove to be far more challenging than make-up and costuming could handle at the time. The Klingons ended up becoming the easier to costume compromise. If you include the games, there is a third “cat” species in the Lyrans for Star Trek. The Lyrans were more early medieval Japan (North and South Courts) than the more Viking-esque Kzinti. Both were sentient eaters.
Sthondat lymph was the drug needed by some of the Kzinti (empaths) telepaths, it was highly and fatally addictive to the users. We kinda got to see the Kzinti in the Kilrathi of Wing Commander. Have to agree in hoping to see “Known Space” come to the small or big screen, especially if any “citizens” were to pop up in the series.
I don't know if "Known Space" could be transferred to the movie or TV screens. This is because Larry Niven had/has a weird imagination. The weirdest species that he created is the Pierson's Puppeteers. That said, I'd love to see such a TV series just to see if SFX artists could create the different species accurately.
Only. Ai/cgi would work
As a kid, I loved knowing that cat people existed on Star Trek, and that Thundera was out there somewhere. (Eternia, Cybertron, Oa, Krypton.) Imaginations run wild.
Incidentally, the hormonal Caitian thing was not actually an invention of Lower Decks, but actually an Alan Dean Foster novelization of the TAS episodes in which he padded out several plotlines with original story content to satisfy publisher demands. Whether Lower Decks KNEW about that or coincidentally came up with the same idea on their own, I don't know...
Having played the Star Trek RPG back in the day, this warms the cockles of my Caitian Chief Medical Officer's heart.
I like to include Star Trek Online's Ferasans into the mix as well, which presents a fascinating potential history of repeated, engineered, genetic divergences within Caitian/Ferasan/Kzinti history.
One element I also like is the implication that shows up now and then that the Caitians, contrary to many Trek Species, are also a species with incredible cultural diversity, much like Humans on earth. It is certainly noted that they get along quite well with humans.
Nobody uses "digitigrade" and "plantigrade" that easily without being a furry. One of us!
I'm not a furry, but I have just studied biology haha
I read several of Larry Niven's Known Space stories before TAS came out, and was thrilled to find Kzinti in it. I loved the way that the episode made the Caitians related to the Kzinti the way that the Vulcans are related to the Romulans. I didn't realize that later Star Trek productions depicted Caitians in the background of some scenes. Actually scratch that (pun intended) I now recall that Lower Decks has a Caitian character, but I'd forgotten. 🙂
how'd they get around the fact that female kzin aren't sentient and the caitians are?
One of the things I've always found most frustrating is how few actual alienlike species we see in Trek despite sci-fi being full of anthropomorphic species.
In the movies and TV series, the cost to have wildly different alien species would likely be horrendous. However, in the books, anything is possible -- it just depends on the author's imagination. That being said, I agree that more could be shown now in "ST:SNW".
I tend to presume there might be a whole lot out there but they might be less interested in humanoid affairs/under prime directive cause not toolusers, etc.
With the development of digital overlaying, today's film making can produce 'alien' and non-human characters... see Lord of the Rings and Smaug the Dragon.
@@franksmedley7372Those are still movies with much more time and budget than is typically available for a tv show.
@@franksmedley7372 It's still not *cheap* to do so, and frankly, I think it was a mistake to decide to try to restyle species like Andorians and Klingons to seemmore 'alien,' (Especially by making Andorians' faces like the face-prosthetics alien-of the week people when they didn't need to. (major pet peeve of mine.) But I think that's why they're backing off of that.
There's a lot of mostly-humanoid people out there, that's part of Star Trek. I mean, I always think of Ensign Nahrat from some novels, he's a Horta, and yaknow, those melty-rock people don't really do much spacefaring but he's there cause he's *curious* about humanoids and space, that's cool. But yaknow, Horta never seem to have gone to space, mostly do Horta things and think Horta thoughts, I guess.
I mean, maybe they could do more encounters with incomprehensibly-weird beings but it'd probably mostly just be learning how to say hi. :)
My headcanon is that the 1st Kzinti war happened while both species were limited to warp 1-2. The vulcans stepping in would have been the parallel to the Crashlander Colony buying FTL tech from the Outsiders and accidently ending the first man Kzin war.
The other wars would have been pushing Kzinti space back to their current borders. The Kzinti ALWAYS attack before they are ready, and thus provoked the federation expands in responce.
IIRC a Kzinti challenge to combat is simply a scream and a leap
happy birthday, brother. yet another banger of a video.
Thank you!
I would love to see the Caitians show up in Strange New Worlds, maybe even character of M'ress. The Caitians have always been my favorite Trek aliens. I always play a Caitian character, ever since I played the Lincoln Enterprise games back in the early 70's. There were actually 2 Caitian Admirals in ST 3. The orange lion colored one, and a black panther one.
Live action Caitians or Kziniti are still too hard to pull off on a regular series budget, even SNW's, and CGI always still looks really fake when trying render complex hair or fur. Hence why M'Ress, T'Ana and other Caitian's the Kzinti work so well in the animation style of TAS and Lower Decks.
Glad to see that an image of the Kzinti SCS (Space Control Ship) made an appearance. I love the design of those ships from Starfleet Battles and I still have an extensive collection those miniatures including most of the Kzinti ships from that game.
Just think about this...... STAR TREK TOS was only three years and look at the impact it made....... LOVE IT.
The Kzinti Telepathic ability in Niven's books was dependent on an addictive drug. That & the tiring(?) effect made Telepath a very low caste; regarded with contempt even.
Basically Kzinti consider anything that is not directed to fighting and killing to be a waste if time and thus dishonourable
Is this drug related to catnip, perhaps? 😹
@@hansisbrucker813 No it is an extract from the lymph of a creature called a Sthondat. The word translates as "unfit for Kzinti consumption" and used as an insult as well. If the Kzinti want to get drunk, they drink Sour Milk!
Its also okay to admit that even within a series, Star Trek is just not consistent with itself.
Yup :0
You say it's unlikely aliens would look like cats, but there have been claims of cat-like aliens visiting Earth, and they are supposed to be helpful to humanity.
Sure, bud. "There have been claims"
Personally have two characters in STO - one Caitian and one Ferasan (Kzinti). The Caitian flies a Caitian carrier named the "Kitten Beemu" and the Ferasan flies a Ferasan warship named the "Can Haz Cheezburger".
Neat, I never knew the words for the different foot structures - digitigrade and plantigrade. I guess because I'm not a furry.
Fun part is the etymology - digit refers to the digits i.e. fingers/toes, and plantar refers to the sole of the foot (both from the Latin roots). "-grade" comes from the Latin *gradus* which means step/pace, so digiti-grade is stepping with the toes, and planti-grade is stepping with the soles! The more you know *woo*
@@A407RAC so tardigrades are always stepping into class late?
@@HellOnWheel Slowly stepping indeed! Tardus - gradus! Named by a guy with an awesome name too - Spallanzani
@brownfp I found out not because I'm a furry but because I've studied biology XD
This guy has no fear, how do I know that, he donned the red shirt.
I geeked the fuck out when you said Larry Niven lol. Is that the that same person Nevinyrral's disk from MTG is named after?
I actually found a copy of a book of Kazinti short stories when I was in Iraq. I had no idea they were in Star Trek.
Ahh the Kzinti, they were big in StarFleet Battles.
It is weird seeing a species from a separate world setting have a presence in star trek. 😕
I'd never heard about Caitians, but have heard little about the Kzinti, and outside of Starfleet Battles, did hear about the Lyrians, cousins to the Kzinti.
If the Kzinti ever conquer the people of Canis Major, they'll rename the system to Felix Major.
I didn't want to watch lower decks but this video has helped move that from "didn't want to" to "refuse to ever"
There's a Doctor Who novel called "Invasion of the Cat-People" - on one page it cites various Cat-People races, including Caitians, Kzinti, metamorphic cats of the Aegis (i.e. Iris from Assignment: Earth), and Lion-Men from Mongo lol
I loved the cat species of New New New New New New New York in Doctor Who.
M'Ress is my second favorite ST character
It is nice to see Taylor on Lower Decks. Niven and the Man-Kzin wars authors lean heavily into the "Kzinti have room temperature IQs" and the "Humanity is superior" trope and it's good that Taylor seems as smart as his colleagues.
I wonder if a simple late-20th century laser pointer would instantly distract Caitians and Kzinti...😉
Its been so long since I read them but I think yes. The humans did use laser to defeat a Kizinti attacker.......Lol
Here is a secret we cats know, WE know all about your pointer toy BUT we like to humor you poor, furless, half blind, half deaf creatures any time we get the chance!
I almost named my feline overlord 'Speaker to Animals' or 'Chmeee'. That was the most powerful feline character I could think of but was too obscure and no one knew the reference.
I settled on 'Shere Khan Magnus' instead. It's only slightly less obscure, but he certainly grew into it. He's a big chonky 12 year old ginger tabby.
🐈👑✌️🖖
He passed away on Feb 12 2024 after a short illness.
There's a cat shaped hole where my heart goes now.
😿🐈🌈🌁🕊️
Long time subscriber. Great video. But everyone always forget about the very powerful Vedala.
I thought about them when making this video! I mention them in an upcoming release
The "police web" shown in The Slaver Weapon was probably a nod to Gene Roddenberry's time as a cop and his work with Jack Webb on Dragnet.
A nice theory, but the police web appears (under that name) in the original Larry Niven story The Soft Weapon, so that connection is unlikely.
@@aqrxv Unless Niven was giving Roddenberry the nod in his original... 😉😁 But if not, then oh well, at least it's a fun coincidence 🙂.
Great video! Humans and Kzinti first met in the timeline that had Zefram Cochrane being from Alpha Centauri as stated in the OS episode "Metamorphosis."
I like to imagine that some Caitians are allergic to humans.
Ever since I fist watched TAS, when I 12, I've been fascinated by the Kzinti & Caitian history. Good video
Thank you!
According to Larry Niven, the Kzinti were fierce and honourable. Their main problem was they had such great opinions of themselves that they always attacked Earth before they were actually ready. In Niven's stories and novels, they were, in my opinion, the most interesting alien race.
"Scream and leap" didn't work with the "furless monkeys," whose unarmed space vessels could nonetheless defend themselves quite effectively with their communications lasers. =^[.]^=
@@Raycheetah Yeah, you're right there. The Kzinti were shocked when "weaponless" Earth vessels would cut Kzinti warships in half by "turning tail". That happened in the first Niven Kzinti story I read in "The Shape of Space" seemingly aeons ago.
I think the Klingons and the Kzinti have very similar ideas on honor. For example in a Next Gen episode we learn Klingons do not take hostages. In the Niven books we learn the Kzinti MIGHT eat you BUT that will NEVER torture you. In fact they look upon any creature that does with great disdain!
@@Capohanf1 In Niven's "The Soft Weapon", the Human characters find a stasis box containing what the man decides is a Slaver artefact/weapon, but one with a surprise twist: it's mutable and, after seeing several of its forms, the man realizes it's not for a soldier but for a spy. He quickly realizes that it will definitely have a destruct setting and prepares to protect his wife and himself. Then...BOOM! All Kzinti there dead...
One irony is that when Steven V. Cole created the Star Fleet Battles board cae in 1979, he was able to use elements of TOS, TAS, and even TMP (X ships). He thus was able to give us Larry Niven's Kzinti, yet either couldn't or chose not to, give us the Caitians, and instead gave us a third humanoid cat race called the Lyran, which are related to the Kzinti and hate them, but have their own space and are not part of the Federation. The depiction of the Lyrans actually looks more like the Kzinti than the Caitians do in TAS, and most of their ships have dual hulls, which is to say that their ships are mostly catamarans. 😀 In one further irony, when Amarillo Design Bureau, which publishes Star Fleet Battles, spun off a computer version of their game under the name of Star Fleet Command, it didn't have the right to use Kziinti and changed the name to Mirak.
Both very fascinating species, great video.
Thank you!
This must have been noticed and talked about before but, I just noticed that in the cluster of buttons that Riker and La Forge are pushing during Zefram Cochrane first warp flight are two buttons labeled TOS-3 and TOS-8. Perhaps this was just Zefram Cochrane's way to honor "Those Old Scientists" ?
A favorite anime of mine is Cat Planet Cuties and a running gag is a group of people refusing to accept that first alien contact was with people that looked human but with cat ears and tails and even said that Trekkies would never accept the concept of lovely alien catgirls. (If anybody looks up CPC, it's not kid friendly.)
There is a lexicon of alien species that have visited in to visit this planet. This is an alien Lore. Star Trek lore. I've seen it and apparently there's a cat species of alien that is a benevolent
The Kzinti show up in multiple ST video games, but under various aliases, due to licencing issues. In Starfleet Command 2 the are called "Mirak" (along with their cat-race rivals, the Lyrans), in Klingon Academy they are called "Sha'kurians" and in Star Trek Online they are called "Ferasans". Considering their popularity, it's a shame Paramount never forked out the money to Niven for the IP. I suppose we could always argue they are all offshoots of the same race.
It's also worth noting that in the 3rd season of ST:Enterprise there is a suspiciously Kzinti looking ship (based off SFB/SFC designs), but it's manned by human looking marauders. They may have been planning to have them on the show, but ran into licencing issues. A real shame, if that's the case.
Thank you for using my render of Cait planet from my DA in 4:16 bro.
I think it would be easy to slot in a brief “war” with the kzinti during the third world war, where there’s so much worldwide chaos that humanity as a collective isn’t fully aware of the events that took place until records are found later in federation history
Great vid. So who's next, the Lyran Star Empire or the Hydran Kingdoms? 😬
The Caitians seem like they're awfully close to having a three-body problem
They should have used the Kzinti as enemies in SNW instead of the Gorn.
In Niven's lore, the Kzin are hyper-aggressive, and their only way of reacting to other species is literally fight-or-flight. Fight if you think you can win, or run away if you think you would lose. Talking things out didn't even make sense to them. That attitude had to be toned down to make them work in Star Trek, but toning it down led to an identity crisis, because we already have Klingons as the iconic, aggressive, warrior race in Star Trek.
There's one episode of Enterprise (I can't remember which at this moment, sadly) where they encountered a Klingon starship that refused to talk to them and reacted hyper-aggressively. I remember thinking, that's a textbook Kzin response. Parts of it were almost line-for-line adaptation from Niven's story about the first encounter with a Kzin ship. This must have been written as a Kzinti encounter, and then the studio ordered it changed to Klingons, because of course everybody knows and wants to see Klingons.
I always thought the 3 breasted cat dancer of Nimbus 3 was a sadly underutilized character.
Lmfao!
You'd think that a species that can lick their own genitals would be a lot happier.
TAS had another cat-like species the Vedala.
That clip of the Romulans getting the drop on everyone else was pure gold!
great upload. every good sifi or fantasy story are always better with "cat people"
:D
I will always love 💘 star trek
What would have been weirder is if Terry Nation had gotten his way, and sold Daleks to Star Trek
Love your vids that dive into these Star Trek subjects. Also I was thinking 'Will he mention the Kzinti in Star Fleet Battles I wonder?' and you did! 👍
Your subjects and in depth style kinda reminds me of Venom Geek Media's vids.
Tendi: Why are you sniffing our patient, Dr. T'ana?
T'ana: These %$#! Star Fleet instruments are out of calibration. I do my own CAT scans.
Caitians are awesome ❤
Lt. Mress turned a lot of kids into furries
The reason that the Kzin are shown around Beta Lyrae in some sources is because the old FASA ship warfare game had Beta Lyrae as the Kzin homeworld.
There was a book published in 1985 called Uhuru's Song that featured a felinoid race. Would they have been the Caitians? I don't recall the book ever saying what species they were and they weren't war-like like the Kzinti. Are you familiar with that book? I can't recall if it was canon or non-canon but I did enjoy it.
I think I remember that. It is the one where the landing party had to go through a test to show they were adults with a native called Jinx and Spock got pneumonia.
It's side-canon. Not part of any TV series or film but still considered part of the original series crew's five-year mission. In it are the Eeiauo'ans and their distant cousins. Two sequels were planned but a change in management and policy (no returning original characters) caused them to go unwritten.
@@lorriehicks7156 It was more like AIDS. The novel was written amidst the worst of the 80s AIDS crisis & its author felt more attention needed to be brought to the subject.
"Uhuru's Song" rings the mental bell of "Uhura's Dance" from Star Trek V, a rather interesting but amusing memory xD
They were the Sivoan’s
A real Kzinti from Ringworld will rip you in half on a whim.
Another great feline species in Star Trek is the Eeiauoans from the original series novel "Uhura's Song", one of my favorite Star Trek novels and alien species.
Fascinating as usual. Great video.
Thank you!
1) I thought "Muress" was Em-Ress? Been a long time since I watched animated Star Trek. I do remember that Scotty got hit on by Lt M'Ress, and possibly had some off-screen rule 34 time with her. Thus justifying his "miracle worker" ability, yes that was the actual power he had according to the Star Trek trading card game.
2) I read some of the Man-Kzin Wars novels, I think they state that Humans and Kzin had 4 wars over the course of 300 years. Not sure where that canon and Star Trek Canon meet.
Yeah the Man Kzin wars were interesting. They thought mankind a easy target and really didn't understand deception in regards to war. They hit minefields, traps, and all kinds of nasty things left by the furless monkeys that left them decimated. They even expected humans to be weak hand to hand and wanted to rely on brute strength and claws and found out that we have all kinds of martial arts and melee weapons. A lot of alien species subjugated by the Kzin fled to Terran space and assisted the humans so Earth gained a lot of technology. There is a novel where one veteran Kzin starts to catch on and throws a bunch of cubs in a training jungle room and challenges them to defeat him. Basically he acts like the Predator. He then observes how they eventually start using pack tactics and relying on traps to defeat his great strength. Novel is also funny because human slaves are highly prized due to their dextrous fingers and I believe Vanilla Ice Cream and Whiskey are black market goods that the one Kzin general keeps trying to smuggle in to enjoy for himself.
Peter David deserves mentioning for featuring M'Ress in New Frontier
Man I love your title. Loving the amount of content you've put out recently Tyler - thought the vid might be on Kzinti xD. Also very curious to hear your thoughts on the latest SNW episode (S2E3)!
I think the episode confirmed what I'd suspected they would do for awhile, shall we say, about the lore. I don't fully agree with the SNW writers' interpretation of the Temporal Cold War, but if Star Trek is meant to still be presented as a "possible future for humanity," it makes sense why they'd do this!
@@OrangeRiver Excellent! I personally loved it and all the tie-ins, and am quite impressed where SNW is going all things considered. ENT is still my favourite series though :D
@@OrangeRiver man.....this year's star trek convention is going to be FUN!!!😉😒
@@OrangeRiver Also just realised I'm not a member yet, just joined :D
@@clevelandmaker386 Me-OWW
I had no idea you be working the Kzinti into this video. Fab! 😁👍
Do us all a favor and make an episode on Star Fleet's rules on inter species sex. What's legal and why. What will be fatal despite what she tells you. What would work if it fit and it won't. We know Kirk tried everything. Did he get written up for it?
I doubt he ever got medical approval from McCoy😂 Maybe the rules exist because of him?😂 Just think of all those potential alien STDs....🤮
Worth it. 😁
Hahaha, I made something close to this last year! th-cam.com/video/br03fLWseQ8/w-d-xo.html
Treaty of Sirius, huh? Canis Majoris - the Dog Star
My theory on the Man /Kzin wars:
1. It was not humanity using sublight vesselts. The Kzinti basically used sleeper ships and cryogenics to conquer other worlds at the time.
2. It was not a war between Humans and Kzinti, but the Vulcans protecting earth from these sleeper ships. And maybe some DY-1000 Ships getting in the crossfire
Dy 450
We can still have a sublight war if it's soon after we get warp. But only experimental ships have warp. I mean it took decades to get a decent number of warp 1 and 2 ships. The majority of Earth warships probably only had impulse drives for a generation.
I only read the books, and consequently always assumed the k was silent therefore becoming (phonetically) the Zinti from Zin. I can see why a whole 'universe' could be grafted into the StarTrek timeline, and frankly I'd ignore the bulk of the anachronisms, there are plenty on trek anyway. In the end there are some excellent components to Niven's known space and, as suggested by others I'd like to see Ringworld. The cause of Ringworld's construction and the origin of the Protectors would however change much of Trek's premise and 'our' history.