As for the question of where Odo's universal translator goes... well, I'd imagine he could mimic the function of one within his neurochemistry, but it would be subject to the same limitations as a Bajoran or Starfleet translator. Btw, the first 1,000 people to use this link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/orangeriver03221
Odo breaks the combadge down to its smallest of parts while in his non solid form, the combadge doesnt become a part of him but the parts simply get spread across him in his "goo'" form and then he puts them back together when he becomes his solid humanoid form again.
Hey You Did🖖 Right, I have a Pet Peeve when People don't Stick the Thumb Out, Now, To Quote the Inventor of🖖 Live Long and Prosper Mr. Leonard Nimoy, "Can You do it with Both hands?"
The "subspace pocket" idea to explain Changlings' apparent shifts in mass makes a lot of sense. That was the explanation used in the "Animorphs" books, to explain where their mass goes when they morphed into a small animal, and where the "extra" mass came from when they morphed a large one. I could definitely see Changelings using a similar system, and if they can derive energy from subspace directly, that could explain why they never need to eat. Odo was my favourite character on DS9 when I was younger, but I was consistently disappointed in how uncreatively his shapeshifting was applied. I mean, if I could shapeshift, I'd be flying around the Promenade -- screw walking! I know that was largely based on the special effects budget, but still. I'd love to see a Changeling show up in Lower Decks or Prodigy -- in animation, they could do such much more.
I could be wrong, but I think characters like the hulk and other similar size shifting beings in Marvel comics derive their extra mass almost exactly the same way. That being said it's not exactly an original idea.
I tend to think of them akin to slime molds, a paraphyletic group. They usually live as individual cells, but during lean times can group together to act essentially as multi-cellular shapeshifting organisms. (Are you single celled or multicellular? Well, it depends.)
Man I've been binging most of your star trek content whilst I work over the week, just wanted to drop a comment on this to say how much I'm enjoying it! You've quickly become a firm favourite of mine. I personally find your calm presentation style very calming, but it also keeps my attention (the dry humour is great too). Looking forward to seeing your work appear in the notifications!
While I did watch Voyager and some DS9 and TNG as a kid, I've only recently got into the lore of Star Trek heavily and I really appreciate your videos.
Well like always very well explained, I think your insightfulness is wonderful, Thanks, I did give a LIKE and I have SUBSCRIBED because that IS THE ORDER OF THINGS
I really like the extradimensional theory. I had never thought of that before, but it makes sense to me. The Founders are one of the most alien aliens featured as main characters on Trek, and you managed to pull out some real ideas about what their biology could be. Great work!
Tbh I never thought about it when it came to the founders but had actually encountered this explanation in another series I read and watched as a kid that had alot of morphing, it was Animorphs. In the books they explained that extra mass for different sized morphs was either borrowed or pushed in to another dimension they called Z-space which is kinda like the equivalent of Star Trek's subspace as it was also explained that that's also where ships went when they travelled faster than light and they even mentioned that there was a chance that the mass you'd pushed in to that dimension could be hit by a ship travelling through that dimension 😅
During my last rewatch of DS9, I realized that the Changelings don't really refer to themselves as individuals, instead only ever speaking in terms of their collective. This raises the possibility that perhaps all Changeling "individuals" are in fact expressions of *a single organism* - similar to a field of grass or a fungal mycelium. In that sense, while they might be able to function as individuals when disconnected from the main body, they simply mix back together whenever rejoining the link - there's no actual permanence to any Changeling individual we see on the show; they are all created ad-hoc and reabsorbed once the solid form is no longer needed. The Female Changeling we see in DS9 may have actually been several "individuals" created this way, all of which simply decided to take the same form for whatever unfathomable reason. In Odo's case, of course, having been raised and trained by individualist solids from birth, and having had no connection to the link until much later, he would be able to retain an individual persona even when entering and exiting the link. It's by far not a perfect theory... but then again neither is having a pocket of subspace inside you where you can stuff excess mass until you need it later.
@@samuellove9619 What I'm trying to say is that there are never "many" at all - just one. A single entity that appears to outside observers as "many" because it always needs to "break off a piece" to interact with them. However since making that post I've changed my mind on this. On Odo's very first visit to the Changeling homeworld, one briefly argues with the Female Changeling, which indicates that they are indeed two separate creatures.
I really dig your channel man, been a Trek fan since the Next Gen days. I still remember the first episode I ever watched was the one where The Enterprise gets stuck in the time loop colliding with the USS Bozeman, I was instantly hooked. You bring alot of great knowledge on all the different races of beings that had major standing in the galaxy, I've enjoyed learning some of the finer points of them. Great work keep it up!
I'm not crazy about your lighting in this video, but your subtle use of Trek sound effects is awesome! Plus your personal humor pops up just enough. ;)
Regarding changing their mass, when Odo was returned to a Changeling by fusing with the sick baby changeling he celebrated by turning himself into some type bird. When he did this he left a big blob of himself on the floor and only a small part turned into the bird. Other times he turned himself into something small his entire body shrank down. I guess it was just a mistake that one time.
Wow man, that was very good indeed. DS9 is my favorite trek. I'm not up on all of the modern ones though, except Picard. I am looking forward to the next two analyses in this series. Great topic examining One of the federations great nemeses. Great job!
Surprised you didn't bring up the shapeshifting key/pendent from early ds9. Its suggested in the episode to be a cousin or ancestor of Odo's species, suggesting that the changelings evolved from simple shapeshifting goo that was very similar. This reinforces the idea that they were never solid in their evolution.
If they were once solid, and eventually became as we know them, that would be a not-entirely-unreasonable basis for a belief that the founders are inherently more advanced than solids. So the claim could have essentially been propaganda.
@@axiomostanes Are you talking to me or the original commenter? You're addressing mostly my talking points but not directly to me. I know some devices don't have that feature, I'm just wondering. It's a pretty decent premise though, I'm sure from how many vorta use deception and backhanded diplomacy that's probably true.
Ah! At last! Someone's on the same track; the Changelings inter or multidimensional nature may have originated from Fluidic Space! It would explain a great deal not only of their inherient abilities, but of their xenophobia to 'Solids', if they were contending with species 8472/Undine for their entire evolution, it would be simply a psychological reflex due to 8472's omnicidal intentions (at least until they got a bigger foothold in our galaxy i Voyager). Considering how they possibly evolved in Fluidic Space and its strange properties, they may derive sustenance from radiation, molecular friction, or some other means :)
That's a clever supposition! If it is the case, they might be very closely tied with their universe, perhaps they could even be parts of that dimension that are sentient. A genius loci that bleeds into another reality.
Imo this video could have been 30 min long. the founders/changleings were the most important aspect of deep space 9 by far and totally made that series.
Hmm, Chris Claremont writing one of the first apparitions of Mystique, in the first "Ms. Marvel" in the '70s, has her avoiding Contessa Valentina Allegro de la Fontaine, while the shape-shifting mutant is in Nick Fury disguise, because "Under this jacket I am thin as a rail, much different from the hunky specimen Val has shared her bed with las night". (Note: I read this in the Italian translation some 15 years ago - as such, I suspect that I lack word-fir-word fidelity. Unfortunately, over time Claremont too would grow lazy and allow Mystique to lose and gain weight as will... There should be a rule against that. Then again, as a side effect, writers could decide that the shapeshifter can separate in "chunks" but must choose how to invest their consciousness in each chunk. And Odo would need a 20 gallons barrel, not just a bucket...
If the Changelings have the ability to evade sensors, would that not be a way of detecting them? Like picking up an absence of detection? Like sensing a "bubble"?
Another great video, Tyler! Thanks for doing these and this one in particular! Great topic! I must have missed it, but have you ever said which Star Trek iteration is your favorite? What about other sci fi like Babylon 5? Battlestar Galactica? What about video games/video game consoles?
Regarding the Dominion having prior knowledge of the apha/beta region prior to the discovery of the wormhole. I think that idea was only floated by the producers in some interview it was never said on screen. It also seems very unlikely for two reasons one simply the distance involved 70,000 light years and the Dominion still only having warp drive. Secondly as you point out “the 100” were the ones meant to be doing the exploring so what would be the point if they already knew about empires that far away anyway?
I know the subspace pocket theory is super popular (and would still work, I don't disagree!) -- but I personally have always just wondering if they had a hyper-fast ability to create/discard cell matter. Like say Odo turns into a bird, he just discards the cells that make up his "skin" and creates new ones that mimic "feathers" or what have you, and they just get modified to whatever color/structure/etc that he needs them to be. I personally dig this theory cause I feel like it fits nicely (though probably not perfectly) into why Changelings are the way they are. - "Why don't they have to eat or drink anything to get energy" Because with this idea, they're basically self-cannibalizing and recycling their bodies all the time, probably at an insane speed, getting that metabolic energy back in a continual cycle. That's how they can live so long and why Odo has to have some bucket time, to let that system relax the same way humans sleep to let our brains refresh. - "How are Changelings born" Maybe a Founder just removes a clump of themselves and eventually it just begins to slowly regenerate on its own, a sort of parthenogenesis. This could be how the 100 sent out have a homing beacon implanted, because it was strongly imposed upon the bio structure of the separated cells, maybe through the advanced DNA editing tech the Dominion has to command. This could be why the Baby Changeling and younger Odo is commented on being so small but eventually growing in mass. - "Where does the mass go and why isn't Odo as a cup super heavy" Because the weight literally doesn't exist anymore, he destroyed himself down to that size and so the weight makes sense. - "How do they link" slime mold time! And since neural energy is a thing in Star Trek, maybe Changelings also have this to a certain degree in each of their cells, not strong enough to be picked up by betazoids but enough to hold memories/personality/etc Basically just ridiculously complicated jellyfish-slime mold-chameleons haha. There's probably HUGE holes to this theory but I like the idea that they're just Flubber.
Actually otto said that if a peice of him is away for long enough that it would form into its own lifeform. So it is highly likely that the changelings 'bud' or split off to form babies
@@hackman669 kinda yeah. Although much more complex. Id imagine smaller parts of them would be too basic to hold any significant parts of their identities, so they would just fill in the gaps
I always felt that given odo having taken so long to mature by our standards that maybe it’s through energy assumption and retention that we see them assume their forms. Like their cells are multi layered and complex enough to hold in massive amounts of energy that can then be rematerialized like a replicator (all be it much more complex) and create mass. The influx of that being that they can also dematerialize their mass into atomic energy. Just my thoughts though.
@@subraxas Yeah. I wrote that post before I started thinking of real world organisms that technically change shape. That's why I omitted the word, mythical.
Another interesting video analysis. A conflict between the Borg and the Changelings would have been awesome to see. It's kind of interesting that a species whose natural shape is a fluid without form would have valued order so much, which relies on defined roles.
The Borg would have trouble finding a way to assimilate them, but they would definitely try. Their biological and technological distinctiveness would definitely be of interest for the Borg. I could see that conflict being quite an interesting series.
The only explanation is that Odo is a 4th dimensional being reaching into 3 dimensions the same way that the apple passing through flarland would appear impossible to the flatlanders.
Always thought it was odd that: A Bajoran scientist finds Odo and raises him; Odo tries to copy the Bajoran's face and hair, resulting in his iconic appearance; Odo meets others of his species and they have the exact same face and hair that Odo has. One would expect the other shapeshifters, when taking humanoid form, would have shaped their faces according to some other image, maybe one they saw thousands of years before.
Weird... I always thought the changelings once were solid too and then evolved into their liquid form. thought this was mentioned once in DS9. but of course i believe you know better than me. great video!
@@reyperry2605 this. The Female Changeling explains this to Odo during the Dominion occupation of DS9, when she drops by for a visit because she misses the Link. That said, there’s also an implication that she’s just bullshitting and telling Odo what he wants to hear.
Good video as usual. The Changelings' mass-shifting is something they share with the Transformers! Hmmm.... ;-) I have a little bit different take on what their original/natural state may be. Early on, Odo indicated that he learned to mimic humanoid form, although he had difficulty mimicking a humanoid face (which is odd considering the many other complex creatures he mimics to exacting detail on a regular basis: dogs, birds, rodents, etc.). A humanoid face would seem rather simple by comparison. Fast forward, he encounters his own people for the first time, including the Female Changeling and several others. Interestingly enough, they all choose to take a form virtually identical to his. Maybe that's for his benefit or...maybe it's fairly natural for them, while in humanoid form. When Odo meets Laas, the wandering Changeling takes a humanoid form which is noticeably different, yet still extremely similar to Odo and the other Changelings. Furthermore (not that Discovery is ever a good barometer when it comes to visual continuity), we just recently encountered a 32nd century Female Changeling who again looked identical to the 24th century Changelings, except for a darker skin tone. This leads me to believe that the form we repeatedly see the Changelings take, the form which Odo routinely takes, appears to be the most natural for them, while in humanoid form. In other words, they can choose to mimic a human, Bajoran, or Romulan, but the form that Odo and the others typically take is what their humanoid faces most naturally and most comfortably look like. He may not have known that initially, but it is what came most naturally to him...because it's in his DNA. That's what Changelings naturally look like while in humanoid form. This also makes me suspect that they did evolve from bipedal humanoids. Long, long, long ago.
for changeling reproduction I would probably guess that at some point at a changelings life the changeling increases its size to 2x the normal and then splits into 2 (the original changeling and a new one)
Great stuff as usual. I always thought they pull the trigger and have them be directly related to the progenitor ancient humanoid race from TNG's The Chase, they look so much like them and it's the same actress.
If they are so powerful and can manioulate dimensions and store power in sub space then someone can learn a way to use their bodies to power up a spaceship or even a weapon, or use to power up a gate to another galaxy since they are very powerful, and they can be used as energy
My (insert explicitive) has a morphogenic matrix. Also the changelings have a weird awareness of each other. There is a bunch of cool mysteries a writer could get into.
I wonder if the Silverbloods from Voyager were actually a changeling who went into a Demon class planet to form a similar culture and evolved into such a radically different world. Heck, they were even able to shapeshift into a starship and become warp capable.
I think one of two things could have happened to the founders in ds9, or at least to the female changeling. If we assume that Odo is correct in that he and his people remember everything, then the knowledge and wisdom of the first founders is still stored in the minds of those who are in the great Link. But as said that the drop becomes the ocean and the ocean becomes a drop, I do think that thoughts that are not individually/originally theirs are lost or become faded. The female changeling makes many obvious mistakes at the end of the war, which are pointed out by Weyoun, but he then thinks his tactically sounds suggestions are stupid because he isn't a founder. Honestly, the dominion probably could have won at the first battle that used the Breen energy weapons. But the female changeling thought a small dip in morale was worth the possibility of analyst understanding this new weapon. The Borg didn't leave survivors intentionally, so it was difficult to figure out a traditional way of beating them. I think that the longer the female changeling went without the great Link, the more independent and close minded she became. She also lost her ability to discuss her ideas with anyone who had an opinion she respected. The near immortality, access to knowledge greater than any single creature could attain, and presence of so many dissenting rational opinions is why the dominion were so powerful. When in the great Link it was like an ocean overcame the gamma quadrant. I assume when some tactics failed they analyzed why, and changed their behavior. But the war in the alpha quadrant was like drops of water trying to spread as far as an ocean. Both in management and decision making. I also think that possibly the great Link has lost it's edge in being the Galaxy's experts of genetic engineering. This was just a plot device to create a fun irony, but the section 31 pleague not being solved in the alpha quadrant is understandable (again just being little drops), but the full brunt of the ocean should (in my mind) figure out that the cure was the DNA of the solids. Either knowledge was lost from the original founders or the capability to look at issues dispassionately and objectively was lost due hubris and potentially sloth. Another interesting unintended theme that carried on through from DS9 to ENT was how these great authoritarian regiems reshaped the galaxy towards the favor of the federation. War and peace both strengthen or flat out create the federation.
at one time the changeings where solids, but evolved to the present state, there are matter states that contradicts the traditional concept of mass, one is the newly discored crystal state of many materials, that shows that a at a certain point mass becomes unimportant
Good summary of the available info. One further thing that muddies the "science" is that when Odo shows Kira his "true self" at the end of one episode, he becomes clouds of gas and light. This to me indicates that they are truly very weird, energy subspace beings 😉
Both of the 2000 & 10,000 figure could be correct. If the Dominion had had a small empire spanning a few systems before their interactions and creations with the vorta and Jem Hadar
@@subraxas hey if you like this type of comment check out my other channel I do all sorts of nerdy cultural stuff and I'm going to be making videos like this myself on Star Trek Star wars, Babylon 5 Stargate etc. I currently don't have a lot of that content yet but I am going to be producing that type of content. youtube.com/@reverendsquatchanimecomicg6694
Let's be clear: Odo was never SEXUALLY attracted to Kira Nerys. He was EMOTIONALLY attracted to her, and yes, Odo had a sense of beauty and aesthetics, which is why he considered women attractive, and Kira as beautiful.
Honest. I’ve always assumed that the Changelings’ change in mass could be attributed to them absorbing surrounding atmosphere. Can’t say that explains every shape-shifting fiasco, but it’s at least an easy explanation.
I think a skilled old Changeling could make hybrid solid babies. If one wanted to shape shift completely into some humanoid form with internal organs and such, and they wanted their ... love fluids... to go out as such, why wouldn't they start interacting like conventional love fluid? Even a shitty Changeling turns humanoid enough to get knocked out when hit on the head and not revert to goo, so... "life happens" said Prof. Goldblume
In the original mythology, a changeling was not a shape-shifter, but a fairy child left in exchange for a human one or the human child taken by the fairies depending on the story's point of view. My understanding on the Founders reproduction is that, like single-celled organisms, they multiply by dividing.
Technically the founders were introduced in TNG Near the middle/end of the run It was the episode where the Klingons, cardasians, and Romulians were racing to hunt down pre universe tech. And they found out one race, put forth all the DNA in the universe and randomized the genetics.
Did the Dominion Founders ever encounter the Iconians, as we first saw in the TNG second season episode, "Contagion"? And later cited in the DS9 episode, "To the Death". What about the Tkon ("Contagion")?
It's clear that this isn't how they work in Star Trek canon from DS9, but it would have been interesting if they ate by literally absorbing matter and converting it to morphogenic matrix, and they changed mass by literally leaving parts of themselves behind. Could limit it to having only one consciousness that has to pick which part it is a part _of,_ and thus ensure they're not reproducing constantly by mitosis. Reproduction might be a process of deliberately having multiple changelings in a Link leave behind mass that has no consciousness, and some catalytic number of them leaves enough echoes of "self" that the product left behind eventually awakens to sentience. On the other hand, if they do have some sort of extradimensional subspace storage for most of their mass, it could be that birthing new changelings involves something to do with creating or filling a subspace "cavity" with enough matter to manage it. This leaves the sustenance question, though, which is not adequately answered by "directly from subspace" (it still has to come from somewhere) nor by chemical absorption, since they can survive indefinitely in the void of space. I hesitate on the subspace pocket notion, too, because that would just beg to find a way to link subspace pockets to create a great link that doesn't require physical proximity in the 3D space they clearly care about. On the other hand, the "subspace pocket" theory neatly answers questions such as: where does Odo's comm badge go when he shapeshifts?
MY IDEAS OF WHAT MIGHT OF CAME ABOUT AFTER (THE DOMINION) FELL: I think it would be great if a separate faction came about after (The Dominion) had fallen; I imagine the separate faction is a formation of outcasts of their own races, who never agreed with what each of their races were doing, and had done. In addition I imagine this (separate faction) they are very cautious, but at the same time hopeful for coexistence with other races, and to be treated with genuine respect. Now the list of outcasts races; The first are a number of Changelings, second are the Vorta, and the third are the (Jemidar). I imagine that ten Changelings agreed with what (Odo) had expressed about solids, that not all of them should be hated, feared, and that it is possible to develop a friendship with solids if you give them a chance. Now when it comes to the (Jemadar) I imagine 8% of them had developed an immunity to the drug, that was given to them they slowly figured out the drug was very bad, and they were being tricked. In addition they were being used as living drones, to fight for beings pretending to be Gods, and that these beings didn’t truly care about them. Now when it comes to the VORTA race I imagine that 10% of them, had reached the realization, that they were being manipulated, and were the living puppets to preach about (The Founders) group, and to add being brainwashed to worshiping (The Founders).
With their knowledge talent and abilty to manipulate matter as well as molecules and DNA on a level never seen again in startrek It should have been possible for them to either create or change existing biomaterial into the same kind of biomaterial they are made of... Increasing their overall biomass .
When you brought up the size you forgot to mention Laaz who became the size of a runabout, about 25 meters give or take. You even showed it so I'm not sure why you didn't mention it.
@@subraxas Sure but the example in question wasn't mentioned in relation to the subject in question. I think it's relevant though, a nitpick I suppose but it's there.
As for the question of where Odo's universal translator goes... well, I'd imagine he could mimic the function of one within his neurochemistry, but it would be subject to the same limitations as a Bajoran or Starfleet translator.
Btw, the first 1,000 people to use this link will get a 1 month free trial of Skillshare: skl.sh/orangeriver03221
Too cool Tyler!! I knew octopuses 🐙 were aliens too! 🖖🏻☮️😎
Odo breaks the combadge down to its smallest of parts while in his non solid form, the combadge doesnt become a part of him but the parts simply get spread across him in his "goo'" form and then he puts them back together when he becomes his solid humanoid form again.
Hey You Did🖖 Right, I have a Pet Peeve when People don't Stick the Thumb Out, Now, To Quote the Inventor of🖖 Live Long and Prosper Mr. Leonard Nimoy, "Can You do it with Both hands?"
@@LittleJoeTheMoonlightCat Been making that hand sign for 52 years... You know it! But not with emojis... there's only the one.😂😂😂
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They feel like something that would come out of fluidic space.
Lol
Would be interesting if they had been driven out of fluidic space by 8472. Hence their aversion to “solids.”
It would make sense since they are fluidic beings.
@@1337penguinman Well I know that 8472 also has shape-shifting capabilities, so I don't know how much they'd be considered "solid" by the changelings.
The "subspace pocket" idea to explain Changlings' apparent shifts in mass makes a lot of sense. That was the explanation used in the "Animorphs" books, to explain where their mass goes when they morphed into a small animal, and where the "extra" mass came from when they morphed a large one. I could definitely see Changelings using a similar system, and if they can derive energy from subspace directly, that could explain why they never need to eat.
Odo was my favourite character on DS9 when I was younger, but I was consistently disappointed in how uncreatively his shapeshifting was applied. I mean, if I could shapeshift, I'd be flying around the Promenade -- screw walking! I know that was largely based on the special effects budget, but still. I'd love to see a Changeling show up in Lower Decks or Prodigy -- in animation, they could do such much more.
I could be wrong, but I think characters like the hulk and other similar size shifting beings in Marvel comics derive their extra mass almost exactly the same way. That being said it's not exactly an original idea.
Exactly! I was an animorph fan as well as a DS9 fan. Animorphs were my middle school go to for reading
now if we could offload the extra mass of all those land whales into subspace.........
hello? is anyone there?
I always figured the change in mass is due to them being able to act like living matter replicators.
RIP Rene Auberjonois.
Templin institute video on galactic powers of Star Trek plus orange river video on changelings equals a solid day in the known TH-cam galaxy 🖖🏻
I tend to think of them akin to slime molds, a paraphyletic group. They usually live as individual cells, but during lean times can group together to act essentially as multi-cellular shapeshifting organisms. (Are you single celled or multicellular? Well, it depends.)
Man I've been binging most of your star trek content whilst I work over the week, just wanted to drop a comment on this to say how much I'm enjoying it! You've quickly become a firm favourite of mine. I personally find your calm presentation style very calming, but it also keeps my attention (the dry humour is great too). Looking forward to seeing your work appear in the notifications!
Thank you so much Nathan!
While I did watch Voyager and some DS9 and TNG as a kid, I've only recently got into the lore of Star Trek heavily and I really appreciate your videos.
Well like always very well explained, I think your insightfulness is wonderful, Thanks, I did give a LIKE and I have SUBSCRIBED because that IS THE ORDER OF THINGS
Awesome video as always. Can't wait to see parts 2 and 3.
Loved the video as always, you make me chuckle.
Great video man, can’t wait for the rest of the series :)
I really like the extradimensional theory. I had never thought of that before, but it makes sense to me. The Founders are one of the most alien aliens featured as main characters on Trek, and you managed to pull out some real ideas about what their biology could be. Great work!
Tbh I never thought about it when it came to the founders but had actually encountered this explanation in another series I read and watched as a kid that had alot of morphing, it was Animorphs. In the books they explained that extra mass for different sized morphs was either borrowed or pushed in to another dimension they called Z-space which is kinda like the equivalent of Star Trek's subspace as it was also explained that that's also where ships went when they travelled faster than light and they even mentioned that there was a chance that the mass you'd pushed in to that dimension could be hit by a ship travelling through that dimension 😅
Weird scenario-- the Dominion encounters Armus.
During my last rewatch of DS9, I realized that the Changelings don't really refer to themselves as individuals, instead only ever speaking in terms of their collective. This raises the possibility that perhaps all Changeling "individuals" are in fact expressions of *a single organism* - similar to a field of grass or a fungal mycelium. In that sense, while they might be able to function as individuals when disconnected from the main body, they simply mix back together whenever rejoining the link - there's no actual permanence to any Changeling individual we see on the show; they are all created ad-hoc and reabsorbed once the solid form is no longer needed. The Female Changeling we see in DS9 may have actually been several "individuals" created this way, all of which simply decided to take the same form for whatever unfathomable reason.
In Odo's case, of course, having been raised and trained by individualist solids from birth, and having had no connection to the link until much later, he would be able to retain an individual persona even when entering and exiting the link.
It's by far not a perfect theory... but then again neither is having a pocket of subspace inside you where you can stuff excess mass until you need it later.
The female changeling outright states this. That there are simultaneously 'many, and one'.
@@samuellove9619 What I'm trying to say is that there are never "many" at all - just one. A single entity that appears to outside observers as "many" because it always needs to "break off a piece" to interact with them.
However since making that post I've changed my mind on this. On Odo's very first visit to the Changeling homeworld, one briefly argues with the Female Changeling, which indicates that they are indeed two separate creatures.
I really dig your channel man, been a Trek fan since the Next Gen days. I still remember the first episode I ever watched was the one where The Enterprise gets stuck in the time loop colliding with the USS Bozeman, I was instantly hooked. You bring alot of great knowledge on all the different races of beings that had major standing in the galaxy, I've enjoyed learning some of the finer points of them. Great work keep it up!
I'm not crazy about your lighting in this video, but your subtle use of Trek sound effects is awesome! Plus your personal humor pops up just enough. ;)
Regarding changing their mass, when Odo was returned to a Changeling by fusing with the sick baby changeling he celebrated by turning himself into some type bird. When he did this he left a big blob of himself on the floor and only a small part turned into the bird. Other times he turned himself into something small his entire body shrank down. I guess it was just a mistake that one time.
May have been a while since I saw the scene, but I’m pretty sure that was his clothing.
Yeah that was his uniform dude. He didn't need it anymore so that's why he left them behind.
he was humanoid before that, that’s why he was clothed. just in case you didn’t get enough context from the other commenters.
Perhaps his density changes as well? If he becomes smaller maybe he is more dense so make up for the weight?…..🤔
@@echtoonhis clothing were a part of him. He’s a changeling.
Well as usual I’m late to the party but you never disappoint and we are crazy about your videos!!!!’ Thanks Tyler! 👍
Keep up the amazing work!!!
Well done as usual! I'm considering a complete re-watch of DS9 as it has been at least a decade since I've watched an episode.
@@subraxas I'm going to start within the next few weeks. I've forgotten a lot so you are likely correct.
Love the purple and green lighting... which I assume is intended to represent the dominion logo? Nice touch.
I'm glad you liked it! Yep, it was a reference to the Dominion logo.
I would have liked to see an encounter between the Borg and the Dominion.
Never mentioned on the show or elsewhere is that a formless being is so in need of form and order.
Maybe their lack of physical structure creates a deep need for societal structure to inform their identity?
With enough spicy food and butt clinching, anyone can achieve high sublight speeds.
Wow man, that was very good indeed. DS9 is my favorite trek. I'm not up on all of the modern ones though, except Picard. I am looking forward to the next two analyses in this series. Great topic examining One of the federations great nemeses. Great job!
Thank you so much!
Surprised you didn't bring up the shapeshifting key/pendent from early ds9. Its suggested in the episode to be a cousin or ancestor of Odo's species, suggesting that the changelings evolved from simple shapeshifting goo that was very similar. This reinforces the idea that they were never solid in their evolution.
Actually the lead founder once said that they were like solids eons ago. She was talking to Odo at the time so why would she lie to him?
If they were once solid, and eventually became as we know them, that would be a not-entirely-unreasonable basis for a belief that the founders are inherently more advanced than solids. So the claim could have essentially been propaganda.
@@axiomostanes Are you talking to me or the original commenter? You're addressing mostly my talking points but not directly to me. I know some devices don't have that feature, I'm just wondering. It's a pretty decent premise though, I'm sure from how many vorta use deception and backhanded diplomacy that's probably true.
Ah! At last! Someone's on the same track; the Changelings inter or multidimensional nature may have originated from Fluidic Space!
It would explain a great deal not only of their inherient abilities, but of their xenophobia to 'Solids', if they were contending with species 8472/Undine for their entire evolution, it would be simply a psychological reflex due to 8472's omnicidal intentions (at least until they got a bigger foothold in our galaxy i Voyager).
Considering how they possibly evolved in Fluidic Space and its strange properties, they may derive sustenance from radiation, molecular friction, or some other means :)
That's a clever supposition! If it is the case, they might be very closely tied with their universe, perhaps they could even be parts of that dimension that are sentient. A genius loci that bleeds into another reality.
just cus they're made of liquid.....ugh okay fine lolz
^literally my thought lol
Imo this video could have been 30 min long. the founders/changleings were the most important aspect of deep space 9 by far and totally made that series.
My cut of Vorta is actually 17mins long right now, which is way longer than I thought I'd talk about that species!
@@OrangeRiver im suspecting you will go through more of the power dynamics of the changelings and their inferiors (vorta) in the dominion war
So, by your description, the Great Link is one giant... orgy? 😅😅
As usual, great video.
Hmm, Chris Claremont writing one of the first apparitions of Mystique, in the first "Ms. Marvel" in the '70s, has her avoiding Contessa Valentina Allegro de la Fontaine, while the shape-shifting mutant is in Nick Fury disguise, because "Under this jacket I am thin as a rail, much different from the hunky specimen Val has shared her bed with las night".
(Note: I read this in the Italian translation some 15 years ago - as such, I suspect that I lack word-fir-word fidelity.
Unfortunately, over time Claremont too would grow lazy and allow Mystique to lose and gain weight as will... There should be a rule against that.
Then again, as a side effect, writers could decide that the shapeshifter can separate in "chunks" but must choose how to invest their consciousness in each chunk.
And Odo would need a 20 gallons barrel, not just a bucket...
So much about them is so.......Fascinating!
Would love to learn more about them.
Man, i just love your video’s!
Agree 🖖
@@subraxas that would be unsettling, wouldn’t it?
Over powered blobs!! LOL.... I love it. I'm glad that there's young people like yourself keeping Star Trek alive.
Thanks
Love this
If the Changelings have the ability to evade sensors, would that not be a way of detecting them? Like picking up an absence of detection? Like sensing a "bubble"?
They read as whatever they changed into. So if they changed into a rock, they would read as a rock.
@@TanitEB - Ah yes. Of course. I wasn't thinking along those lines.
They're like Shoggoth of the Mountains of Madness and further stories.
Another great video.
Another great video, Tyler! Thanks for doing these and this one in particular! Great topic!
I must have missed it, but have you ever said which Star Trek iteration is your favorite? What about other sci fi like Babylon 5? Battlestar Galactica? What about video games/video game consoles?
Regarding the Dominion having prior knowledge of the apha/beta region prior to the discovery of the wormhole. I think that idea was only floated by the producers in some interview it was never said on screen. It also seems very unlikely for two reasons one simply the distance involved 70,000 light years and the Dominion still only having warp drive. Secondly as you point out “the 100” were the ones meant to be doing the exploring so what would be the point if they already knew about empires that far away anyway?
I know the subspace pocket theory is super popular (and would still work, I don't disagree!) -- but I personally have always just wondering if they had a hyper-fast ability to create/discard cell matter. Like say Odo turns into a bird, he just discards the cells that make up his "skin" and creates new ones that mimic "feathers" or what have you, and they just get modified to whatever color/structure/etc that he needs them to be. I personally dig this theory cause I feel like it fits nicely (though probably not perfectly) into why Changelings are the way they are.
- "Why don't they have to eat or drink anything to get energy" Because with this idea, they're basically self-cannibalizing and recycling their bodies all the time, probably at an insane speed, getting that metabolic energy back in a continual cycle. That's how they can live so long and why Odo has to have some bucket time, to let that system relax the same way humans sleep to let our brains refresh.
- "How are Changelings born" Maybe a Founder just removes a clump of themselves and eventually it just begins to slowly regenerate on its own, a sort of parthenogenesis. This could be how the 100 sent out have a homing beacon implanted, because it was strongly imposed upon the bio structure of the separated cells, maybe through the advanced DNA editing tech the Dominion has to command. This could be why the Baby Changeling and younger Odo is commented on being so small but eventually growing in mass.
- "Where does the mass go and why isn't Odo as a cup super heavy" Because the weight literally doesn't exist anymore, he destroyed himself down to that size and so the weight makes sense.
- "How do they link" slime mold time! And since neural energy is a thing in Star Trek, maybe Changelings also have this to a certain degree in each of their cells, not strong enough to be picked up by betazoids but enough to hold memories/personality/etc
Basically just ridiculously complicated jellyfish-slime mold-chameleons haha. There's probably HUGE holes to this theory but I like the idea that they're just Flubber.
They also had the ability to lock one of their member into a permanent form.
Actually otto said that if a peice of him is away for long enough that it would form into its own lifeform. So it is highly likely that the changelings 'bud' or split off to form babies
It would also explain the size we see baby changelings at when they are growing. Their just smaller masses of the entire link
@@gamerboiiiiiii So changelings are like a fungus, sponge or primitive simple plant when reproducing.
@@hackman669 kinda yeah. Although much more complex. Id imagine smaller parts of them would be too basic to hold any significant parts of their identities, so they would just fill in the gaps
Excellent
I always felt that given odo having taken so long to mature by our standards that maybe it’s through energy assumption and retention that we see them assume their forms. Like their cells are multi layered and complex enough to hold in massive amounts of energy that can then be rematerialized like a replicator (all be it much more complex) and create mass. The influx of that being that they can also dematerialize their mass into atomic energy. Just my thoughts though.
Good channel friend. Enjoy your thoughts .
Thank you so much!
Pretty much all shapeshifters require some magical increasing/decreasing of mass. Very few myths involve exact same weights
@@subraxas Yeah. I wrote that post before I started thinking of real world organisms that technically change shape. That's why I omitted the word, mythical.
Tyler I have to ask this... Does your sponsor skillshare, have subtitles in Klingon??? LOL... I love your content keep up the good work
You and Certified Ingame should do a video together.
I'd love that!
13:00 maybe the changelings are like aerogel, deceptively light.
Another interesting video analysis. A conflict between the Borg and the Changelings would have been awesome to see. It's kind of interesting that a species whose natural shape is a fluid without form would have valued order so much, which relies on defined roles.
The Borg would have trouble finding a way to assimilate them, but they would definitely try. Their biological and technological distinctiveness would definitely be of interest for the Borg. I could see that conflict being quite an interesting series.
The only explanation is that Odo is a 4th dimensional being reaching into 3 dimensions the same way that the apple passing through flarland would appear impossible to the flatlanders.
Maybe the Changlings were hostile from the beginning. But other races banded together so the Changlings had go into hiding.
What happened after the Dominion War? Do they change their perspective on solids sense the Federation treated fairly leaving them alone after?
Well, it looks like the solids were kinda right to hate and fear them Nazi Snot Monsta's after all
Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!!!!
R.I.P. to Clarence Williams III
OK it's time for the transformers fanbase, and startrek fanbase to come together for a unified theory of the subspace storage pocket.
Always thought it was odd that:
A Bajoran scientist finds Odo and raises him;
Odo tries to copy the Bajoran's face and hair, resulting in his iconic appearance;
Odo meets others of his species and they have the exact same face and hair that Odo has.
One would expect the other shapeshifters, when taking humanoid form, would have shaped their faces according to some other image, maybe one they saw thousands of years before.
Kira was smart. What woman would not want a lover who could make his little friend vibrate, change size and texture?
Hello Tyler "Fu*k Solids" Vadik famous last words
R.I.P. Rene Auberjonais
Overpowered af but still got clapped
This isn’t fortnite lol
This video felt so comfortable I almost fell asleep
I'm glad people find my voice soothing 😂
Weird... I always thought the changelings once were solid too and then evolved into their liquid form. thought this was mentioned once in DS9. but of course i believe you know better than me. great video!
I'm certain they were solid and evolved. odo was speaking to the female that explains it
The Female Changeling said they were once solid. She didn't say they were humanoid but it's implied they were.
@@reyperry2605 this. The Female Changeling explains this to Odo during the Dominion occupation of DS9, when she drops by for a visit because she misses the Link. That said, there’s also an implication that she’s just bullshitting and telling Odo what he wants to hear.
Good video as usual. The Changelings' mass-shifting is something they share with the Transformers! Hmmm.... ;-)
I have a little bit different take on what their original/natural state may be. Early on, Odo indicated that he learned to mimic humanoid form, although he had difficulty mimicking a humanoid face (which is odd considering the many other complex creatures he mimics to exacting detail on a regular basis: dogs, birds, rodents, etc.). A humanoid face would seem rather simple by comparison. Fast forward, he encounters his own people for the first time, including the Female Changeling and several others. Interestingly enough, they all choose to take a form virtually identical to his. Maybe that's for his benefit or...maybe it's fairly natural for them, while in humanoid form. When Odo meets Laas, the wandering Changeling takes a humanoid form which is noticeably different, yet still extremely similar to Odo and the other Changelings. Furthermore (not that Discovery is ever a good barometer when it comes to visual continuity), we just recently encountered a 32nd century Female Changeling who again looked identical to the 24th century Changelings, except for a darker skin tone.
This leads me to believe that the form we repeatedly see the Changelings take, the form which Odo routinely takes, appears to be the most natural for them, while in humanoid form. In other words, they can choose to mimic a human, Bajoran, or Romulan, but the form that Odo and the others typically take is what their humanoid faces most naturally and most comfortably look like. He may not have known that initially, but it is what came most naturally to him...because it's in his DNA. That's what Changelings naturally look like while in humanoid form.
This also makes me suspect that they did evolve from bipedal humanoids. Long, long, long ago.
for changeling reproduction I would probably guess that at some point at a changelings life the changeling increases its size to 2x the normal and then splits into 2 (the original changeling and a new one)
they r like a huge super evolved slime mold its all one being acting as many
Great stuff as usual.
I always thought they pull the trigger and have them be directly related to the progenitor ancient humanoid race from TNG's The Chase, they look so much like them and it's the same actress.
If they are so powerful and can manioulate dimensions and store power in sub space then someone can learn a way to use their bodies to power up a spaceship or even a weapon, or use to power up a gate to another galaxy since they are very powerful, and they can be used as energy
Commenting for algorithm. :)
Much appreciated 🖖
This is the kind of analytical nerd shit I signed up for.
My (insert explicitive) has a morphogenic matrix. Also the changelings have a weird awareness of each other. There is a bunch of cool mysteries a writer could get into.
Is it possible that changelings are 4th dimension beings occupying a 3rd dimension space?
One of the main components of changeling physiology is nonsensiom
I wonder if the Silverbloods from Voyager were actually a changeling who went into a Demon class planet to form a similar culture and evolved into such a radically different world. Heck, they were even able to shapeshift into a starship and become warp capable.
I think one of two things could have happened to the founders in ds9, or at least to the female changeling. If we assume that Odo is correct in that he and his people remember everything, then the knowledge and wisdom of the first founders is still stored in the minds of those who are in the great Link. But as said that the drop becomes the ocean and the ocean becomes a drop, I do think that thoughts that are not individually/originally theirs are lost or become faded. The female changeling makes many obvious mistakes at the end of the war, which are pointed out by Weyoun, but he then thinks his tactically sounds suggestions are stupid because he isn't a founder. Honestly, the dominion probably could have won at the first battle that used the Breen energy weapons. But the female changeling thought a small dip in morale was worth the possibility of analyst understanding this new weapon. The Borg didn't leave survivors intentionally, so it was difficult to figure out a traditional way of beating them. I think that the longer the female changeling went without the great Link, the more independent and close minded she became. She also lost her ability to discuss her ideas with anyone who had an opinion she respected. The near immortality, access to knowledge greater than any single creature could attain, and presence of so many dissenting rational opinions is why the dominion were so powerful. When in the great Link it was like an ocean overcame the gamma quadrant. I assume when some tactics failed they analyzed why, and changed their behavior. But the war in the alpha quadrant was like drops of water trying to spread as far as an ocean. Both in management and decision making.
I also think that possibly the great Link has lost it's edge in being the Galaxy's experts of genetic engineering. This was just a plot device to create a fun irony, but the section 31 pleague not being solved in the alpha quadrant is understandable (again just being little drops), but the full brunt of the ocean should (in my mind) figure out that the cure was the DNA of the solids. Either knowledge was lost from the original founders or the capability to look at issues dispassionately and objectively was lost due hubris and potentially sloth.
Another interesting unintended theme that carried on through from DS9 to ENT was how these great authoritarian regiems reshaped the galaxy towards the favor of the federation. War and peace both strengthen or flat out create the federation.
at one time the changeings where solids, but evolved to the present state, there are matter states that contradicts the traditional concept of mass, one is the newly discored crystal state of many materials, that shows that a at a certain point mass becomes unimportant
Good summary of the available info.
One further thing that muddies the "science" is that when Odo shows Kira his "true self" at the end of one episode, he becomes clouds of gas and light.
This to me indicates that they are truly very weird, energy subspace beings 😉
big fan of the changelings, with there was more material on them in canon
Both of the 2000 & 10,000 figure could be correct. If the Dominion had had a small empire spanning a few systems before their interactions and creations with the vorta and Jem Hadar
@@subraxas hey if you like this type of comment check out my other channel I do all sorts of nerdy cultural stuff and I'm going to be making videos like this myself on Star Trek Star wars, Babylon 5 Stargate etc. I currently don't have a lot of that content yet but I am going to be producing that type of content. youtube.com/@reverendsquatchanimecomicg6694
Let's be clear: Odo was never SEXUALLY attracted to Kira Nerys. He was EMOTIONALLY attracted to her, and yes, Odo had a sense of beauty and aesthetics, which is why he considered women attractive, and Kira as beautiful.
Honest. I’ve always assumed that the Changelings’ change in mass could be attributed to them absorbing surrounding atmosphere. Can’t say that explains every shape-shifting fiasco, but it’s at least an easy explanation.
The Terran Empire please.. their like a dragon that always thrust
I like you. I'm not a huge Star Trek fan - tho I really liked DS9 - but I like to watch your videos, you're funny, too.
great link? I just watched it a few months ago and for the entire time I always heard great lake
Good video
I think a skilled old Changeling could make hybrid solid babies. If one wanted to shape shift completely into some humanoid form with internal organs and such, and they wanted their ... love fluids... to go out as such, why wouldn't they start interacting like conventional love fluid? Even a shitty Changeling turns humanoid enough to get knocked out when hit on the head and not revert to goo, so...
"life happens" said Prof. Goldblume
@pnorbert2222 Ultimately, it would all depend on however the writer feels like it works in their story.
In the original mythology, a changeling was not a shape-shifter, but a fairy child left in exchange for a human one or the human child taken by the fairies depending on the story's point of view.
My understanding on the Founders reproduction is that, like single-celled organisms, they multiply by dividing.
Technically the founders were introduced in TNG
Near the middle/end of the run
It was the episode where the Klingons, cardasians, and Romulians were racing to hunt down pre universe tech. And they found out one race, put forth all the DNA in the universe and randomized the genetics.
Thats why the name "founder" stuck
Cuz it was their original title 😂
But changeling fits the bill better
Did the Dominion Founders ever encounter the Iconians, as we first saw in the TNG second season episode, "Contagion"? And later cited in the DS9 episode, "To the Death".
What about the Tkon ("Contagion")?
Nice video. In future, splurge a little and put a space between the words that we see on screen.
It's clear that this isn't how they work in Star Trek canon from DS9, but it would have been interesting if they ate by literally absorbing matter and converting it to morphogenic matrix, and they changed mass by literally leaving parts of themselves behind. Could limit it to having only one consciousness that has to pick which part it is a part _of,_ and thus ensure they're not reproducing constantly by mitosis. Reproduction might be a process of deliberately having multiple changelings in a Link leave behind mass that has no consciousness, and some catalytic number of them leaves enough echoes of "self" that the product left behind eventually awakens to sentience.
On the other hand, if they do have some sort of extradimensional subspace storage for most of their mass, it could be that birthing new changelings involves something to do with creating or filling a subspace "cavity" with enough matter to manage it.
This leaves the sustenance question, though, which is not adequately answered by "directly from subspace" (it still has to come from somewhere) nor by chemical absorption, since they can survive indefinitely in the void of space.
I hesitate on the subspace pocket notion, too, because that would just beg to find a way to link subspace pockets to create a great link that doesn't require physical proximity in the 3D space they clearly care about.
On the other hand, the "subspace pocket" theory neatly answers questions such as: where does Odo's comm badge go when he shapeshifts?
MY IDEAS OF WHAT MIGHT OF CAME ABOUT AFTER (THE DOMINION) FELL:
I think it would be great if a separate faction came about after (The Dominion) had fallen; I imagine the separate faction is a formation of outcasts of their own races, who never agreed with what each of their races were doing, and had done.
In addition I imagine this (separate faction) they are very cautious, but at the same time hopeful for coexistence with other races, and to be treated with genuine respect.
Now the list of outcasts races; The first are a number of Changelings, second are the Vorta, and the third are the (Jemidar).
I imagine that ten Changelings agreed with what (Odo) had expressed about solids, that not all of them should be hated, feared, and that it is possible to develop a friendship with solids if you give them a chance.
Now when it comes to the (Jemadar) I imagine 8% of them had developed an immunity to the drug, that was given to them they slowly figured out the drug was very bad, and they were being tricked.
In addition they were being used as living drones, to fight for beings pretending to be Gods, and that these beings didn’t truly care about them.
Now when it comes to the VORTA race I imagine that 10% of them, had reached the realization, that they were being manipulated, and were the living puppets to preach about (The Founders) group, and to add being brainwashed to worshiping (The Founders).
With their knowledge talent and abilty to manipulate matter as well as molecules and DNA on a level never seen again in startrek
It should have been possible for them to either create or change existing biomaterial into the same kind of biomaterial they are made of...
Increasing their overall biomass .
I always thought Odo was Royalty
That’s why the Female Changeling
Wanted him to join the link 😀😀😀😀😀
Tyler,
Where did you get the map on your right side on the back wall?
It was one of the maps that came with the book Stellar Cartography: The Starfleet Reference Library!
@@OrangeRiver okay. I will have to see if I can get the book. I love the map. Thank you.
was Iman's character in ST The Last Frontier a changeling? are the character's in The Dauphin" changelings too?
When you brought up the size you forgot to mention Laaz who became the size of a runabout, about 25 meters give or take. You even showed it so I'm not sure why you didn't mention it.
@@subraxas Sure but the example in question wasn't mentioned in relation to the subject in question. I think it's relevant though, a nitpick I suppose but it's there.
There are living people sharing ideas! It's human.....