Make sure to share this video, we want to help inspire change in the industry and make sure people get the best and highest quality install that they possibly can. It is time for us to do better, so let's change the industry.
I am sure a lot of these government backed schemes are free to certain customers and therefore, it is not their hard earned cash that is being taken but our tax money being wasted. In my view there is a degree of responsibility when providing funding for these schemes to ensure that the installers are reputable so that payments are only made after the installations have been verified by an independent assessor who cannot be linked in any way with the installers. It is in my view lazy to simply provide funding but not put in place checking mechanisms to ensure above all, safety of customers.
I've heard on so many occasions that the electrical industry is one of the most regulated trades. In my opinion, this is just not the case and it's smaller companies that suffer. When you have large enterprises like octopus energy carrying out EV charge points and now moving into the solar industry it makes a joke of our "heavily regulated industry". The standards in the UK are ever diminishing from the skilled engineers of our past.
@@michaelthompson1859it's pride in workmanship rather than skill & pride has been draining away since Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" 😢
Thanks for taking the time to share this, Jordan. More and more people are getting fleeced by "cowboy" installers as the home solar market continues to grow in the UK, and as you say, these installers find it easy to hide behind councils in scheme-commissioned installs, with consumers not realising that those councils are purely facilitators, not holding any liability themselves. I recently released a video on my own channel covering the criteria that customers should be looking for when choosing an installer, to de-risk their project as much as possible. I'll add a link to this video in my post production notes as a good example of when things go wrong for customers who jump in blindly... Cheers, Gary Does Solar.
I’m pretty sure the CT clamp for the battery should be on the main incoming line so it can detect power being drawn from the grid and power being sent to the grid. If it’s on the solar line then that’s probably why it only charges and never discharge as it only ever sees the power coming from the solar 🤔
I had to write a letter to the installers exonerating them from any responsibility for me wanting the inverter inside rather than in the roof space . They maintained that the DC cables would overheat, and we would get virtually no power from the panels. I tried to explain cable loss, current and cable sizing! That did not go down well, as you can imagine!! Keep up the good work. Ray Peto
It is good to hear that some installers have done well, it is not a case that all of them are bad but just quite a few cases of installers doing poor work.
I will by watching your videos and others I was able to ask appropriate questions about the instal , they did not instal anything in my loft their own policy it was neat and tidy labelled all works without issues
Same here! Solar Together in Kent with a company based out of Suffolk. Fox ESS system (hybrid inverter and 5.18 kWh battery storage) with 7 kW Myzappi charger, full install for ~ £8500. Garage install for the battery and inverter. The post install pack included all relevant info (schematic / part P cert / MCS / DNO with copy of G99 form), issued by email as PDFs too!
Hello Jordon , I’m a mcs registered solar installer( sole trader with 34 years of experience ) I’m experiencing the same as you , cowboys especially through the solar together , this and other scenes give the cowboys a thin layer of respectability. I’ve never installed a inverter in the loft , apart from retrofit repairs, when I was trained we where told it’s bad practice and will dramatically shorten the life of the inverter, On my own a domestic solar installation takes 1-2 weeks and everything is done to a extremely high standard, when I see 1 day installs alarm bells start ringing
Was considering Solar Together following West Berkshire Council recommendation. The old adage ‘buy cheap buy twice’ was ringing in my head like a claxon! Thanks for this video, will keep undertaking my due diligence 👍🏿
The safest way is to keep trades away from your property as long as possible and certainly not sign up for non-essential work like for example a solar installation.
Solar Together sounds like one of those aggregator businesses that works with lots of different subcontractors - even if most of them are cowboys, some will probably be good people and that will be where the good reviews come from, if they exist.
There's a better adage: Want it done right? Do it yourself. Noone will care more for your house and it's safety than you will. 30 years in critical infrastructure has taught me the safest and best way to insure your work is done right is to grab your local, relevant codes and do it yourself. Google is more than sufficient to insure your have the right codes for planning. Draw your own plans and submit them. Then, follow them after they've been approved. The inspector will work with you through the process. If you don't want to do the work yourself, hire subs that your direct to do your bidding. They're affordable to remove the heavy labor. I'm, also, a paralytic who installed his own 6kW off grid system. Oh, get off the grid while you have a chance. That's a warning from "secret meetings" I've attended to help inform land developers what's to come in infrastructure.
@@matthewsocal2540 Getting off the grid is easier said than done. It requires decent sunlight all year round, not something we get in the UK. What do you mean "get off the grid while you have the chance" There is a very easy way to get off the grid, stop paying your bill, that will always get you off the grid.
Thanks Jordan. We need spot audits to be carried out on Cowboy Outfits by extremely high quality professionals in every county council. Flush the Beggars out Name and Shame.
See this kind of thing over and over. I’m a local heat pump installer as well as traditional systems and keep coming across installations of this quality. So many organisations involved such as MCS and RECC but nothing changes, particularly with the bigger companies. Hopefully things will improve.
I live in the Rep of Ireland and like the UK some years ago there is now a big push on solar with Government grants available, and so many "solar install specialists" sprouting up everywhere.
I too live in the ROI and I’ve seen an alarming number of get-it-installed-in-a-day jobs. I’ve also noticed unmarked (and unorganised) vans apparently working “on behalf” of very well known companies. Doesn’t inspire confidence in the industry!
Very timely video. Had a Solar Together quote recently. The surveyor struck me as an ex-double glazing salesman. Really didn't gel with the guy. Pulled out but still waiting for my 'survey fee' refund. My advice is if you want to go solar find a proper independent professional.
Good stuff man thanks. Maybe you could find an adjustable lamp, so the video does not get overexposed in those dark attic shots. Very helpful content!!
I went for a mid range quote, not cheapest, nor most expensive. The amount of issues I had was ridiculous, I just flat out refused to pay until it was paid, was then threatened with debt collectors. Eventually they resolved all the issues, would recommend anyone doing reading up beforehand.
Thanks for sharing your experience-sounds like a tough situation! Doing thorough research beforehand is definitely a smart move, especially when dealing with mid-range quotes where expectations can be tricky. Glad to hear the issues were eventually resolved, but it’s frustrating when it gets to the point of debt collectors. Your advice to others will definitely help people avoid similar problems!
@@artisanelectrics basic advice would be pay the deposit or any payments via credit card, and only offer to pay a deposit. In my case they left 250kg worth of batteries on standard loft joists, panels installed so low rain would miss the guttering, broken meter box door, and as your video showed, all cables loose in loft, just to name a few. There was 15 issues I had to point out!
Threatening with debt collectors is a bluff if you are in dispute and would be enough for me to engage a solicitor. Check your house insurance to see if you have family legal cover and if it covers you.
Great video Artisan! They have launched a Solar Together scheme in West Yorkshire. The supplier chosen is based near Kent! Solar Together is supposed to allow solar companies to bid for the work via an auction (Instantly a race to the bottom as the cheapest prices win's the work). Doesn't bode well for quality within the industry, whats more the scheme seems to cut out local quality installers from even having a chance at bidding for the work which is local to them as by the time installers find out about the scheme in their area the auction for the work has taken place months ago! It's sad that our local trusted councillors (in our case the Mayor) has endorsed such a scheme over endorsing quality local companies which will provide local jobs and aid the local economy and provide a better standard of work and aftercare no doubt!
Hey there, thanks for the thoughtful comment! Looks like you're a fan of “Solving The Money Problem” from your profile pic-love that channel too. You’re spot on about the issues with the Solar Together scheme. It's frustrating to see local, quality installers being sidelined in favour of a race to the bottom with pricing. These schemes should be supporting local businesses to provide not only jobs but also high standards of work and aftercare, just like you mentioned. It’s unfortunate when decisions like this are made without considering the long-term impact on local economies and quality. Hopefully, more people speak up about this so we can see a shift in how these programmes operate! Thanks again for sharing your thoughts
I'm from Germany. So when we install photovoltaic systems, the main string cables in the roof area are laid continuously in flexible protective pipe. If the strings are led down the facade, we switch over to aluminum pipe. The transition between the flexible pipe and the aluminum pipe is seamless, either with a connecting sleeve, or the flexible pipe is pushed into the larger aluminum pipe. Our string cables never see direct sunlight, even if they should. We use H1Z2Z2-k 1x6mm² cables, onto which we crimp Stäubli MC4 connectors. All cables are attached to the frame under the PV system with cable ties and cable holders so that they cannot rub on the roof. We install inverters and batteries either in the basement or in a garage if it doesn't get too warm. We use cable ducts for the wiring to and around the inverter. Below an inverter, the cable duct has the dimensions 60x110mm. For the cable routing, appropriate openings are created on the upper side of the cable duct using a step drill. The openings are even labeled with labeling tape to indicate which cable is there. Every cable gets a label flag so that you always know what it is and where it belongs if you have to disconnect it for whatever reason. And yes, I (or we) have also come across some crazy installation methods. Flying wiring with air hooks seems to be modern... One of our customers had the brilliant idea of measuring the string current on his own without us being there by setting a multimeter to 20A DC current measurement and holding the test leads directly to the + and - of one of his two strings... Ouch I saw the slightly charred MC4 connectors because I had looked closely at the string cables and their MC4 connectors before measuring with the Benning PV1-1 installation tester. I asked the customer whether someone had caused a short circuit. He was honest and took the blame and thought that this was the way how you could measure the available power. I then had to explain to him that he had put his life in danger and that there are special measuring devices for this, such as the Benning PV1-1, and that after the short circuit he could expect that in the worst case scenario one or the other PV module could have been damaged. But he was lucky. His system works perfectly. I naturally cut off the charred MC connectors and crimped on new ones.
My installers left a loose connection in the isolator switch. They failed to spot it when it caused the MCB to keep tripping after the first six months - but they did mess up the consumer unit in their efforts. They eventually found it a week after the entire installation stopped working another 6 months later (which they originally blamed on the app!). The arcing loose connection had burned and blackened the inside of the switch which had to be replaced and was a definite fire risk. I would never allow them anywhere near my home again. I'll pay to get things fixed rather than rely on their guarantee - I don't know what they might screw up next.
Good vid, I run an exterior cleaning business we also do solar cleaning. I’ve come across customers who have been not told about how to look after them, and sadly they get in touch 8-12yrs after never been cleaned full of mosses and lychin and other dirt, and some times loos brackets and fittings. I’ve had one customer who fully vented on myself and I share his frustration, he told me he was told by the company that installed it you don’t need to ether clean or service it’s a %100 free energy bar the install costs. But every so often I come across customers who have clearly been miss sold or informed. At the end of the day even if it’s not + you still need to inform the customer about Mantance needs. I’m also starting to assess the costs of installing solar onto my home, but one of my worries is cowboys but also affordability, I’m currently crunching the numbers to work out do I take finance on some of it and also how much extra I’ll be paying pm while under finance see if it will be minimum around what I pay at the moment for electricity.
Greetings again from remote rural off grid solar and wind NSW Australia 11 years ago I was a city lad took me four years or so 2 learn it but looking at that solar system woooooooooooo, made my mistakes along the way , I don't touch 240V or gas installs not qualified will change lpg bottles for stove ecet , 24V and a separate system for 12V LED lighting, but that job even to me was a major cluster F done by more than 1 yehhha cowboy.
I worked for a cowboy solar company who had work from eco4 schemes and they were very high pressured it had to be done in the day, everyone was rushing. Conduit runs that look like a snake up the wall, MC4’s made off with regular pliers, sagging solar panels cos they were short on brackets, carrying panels up the ladders with bare hands, bending busbar to make it fit in the main switch, throwing stuff on and off the scaffold instead of carrying it, not labelling, not even testing after install and just making up numbers on the EIC while driving home, the list goes on. I got out of there quick
I'm definitely not a cowboy builder solar installer but carrying panels up the ladder I prefer to using a pulley, as long as the wind is not going to be an issue I find it safer.. Never dropped one
So glad I've seen this video, spent a lot of time trying to understand how solar works, what pieces you need, how much power you need to generate in my location, what are the typical costs. Now it's time to figure out some other things, like what are the best practices that I should be able to spot. What are the ways to do install and put it all together, so that it stands up to weather, father time, continues to be reliable, and is not a health and safety risk. I was assuming that people go on training courses, and solar, being a new industry, would all be run by professionals. I know not to put batteries in a hot environment; here I see that converting DC to AC (inverter) is something that should not be in the roof space. Lots of very long wires (power loss?) if you put batteries and inverters at the bottom of the house? Some more things to think about...
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Keith! It’s great to hear that you’re taking the time to understand how solar works and what to look out for in terms of installation and best practices. You’re right about the importance of proper setup, especially when it comes to things like placing batteries and inverters in safe locations and avoiding long cable runs to minimise power loss. Solar is definitely an evolving industry, and not every installer follows best practices, so it’s smart to stay informed. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!
Really enjoy watching your videos, I am about to start a huge roll out of PV across uk and Europe and the resi insight really helps me get my head around what the team will be doing on the big sheds. Also what to look out for!
Hello, sparkie from Australia here. 28° is a cool day in a roof space here 😂. Summer 38-40° outside is like 50-60° in a roof. We've unfortunately had a few people die because of it here
I would prefer to rip it all out and start again but that would cost the client a fortune and they can’t afford to pay for a system twice so they are pursuing action with the solar together scheme
@@brettjtodd Sure it's slightly safer not to have any of that kit but they want the benefit of the equipment and it's not particularly dangerous, especially whilst reasonably new, so removing it all whilst having an argument would be an overreaction.
They are still in talks with “Solar together” to try and get the situation fixed without having to fork out thousands for us to rip it all out and start again…
@@artisanelectrics Could you as a company even dare offer a warranty if you were to rework the installation, given the solar panel installation may be just as bad?
9:24 is that a DC feed to the battery going through what looks like an AC isolation switch with brown/blue colours - is that switch rated for DC operation?
When I come across poor installations like these. I recommend to keep the solar inverters off. I’m from a different country but we would have been the party that touched the installation last and if fire or other damages occur we can be held accountable. Seeing loose DC cables always raises red flags for me. On multiple occasions where I inspected the connecters, the pins where not crimped with an mc4 crimping tool but simply squeezed together with some pliars. I would not feel comfortable turning such solar installation back online after doing an inspection. Either way thanks for sharing this video to help raise awareness to the cowboys that are ruining this nice business.
Interesting to watch, i had a solar installation by Koze home ( cowboys )who according to there paperwork had all the correct certifications, BUT found out later, was all lies, and they 3ed party there work !. In the end they paid me off & i Got a good electrician to take it all off & reinstall everything !, to the correct standards. I did my homework, to confirm they had ALL the correct certificate's, via online. Oh, and MCS sucks !!, sooner octopus sort them out the better 🤞
I had some cowboys/adventurous MSC accredited electricians install my second solar and battery install. The good thing is they were cheap and were the only ones who would install the batteries, inverter and specific off-grid set-up I wanted. They claimed to have it set-up but one of the strings was producing low power. I asked them to investigate despite them insisting it was normal and turns out several panels on a string were wired the wrong way around! I also found out months later that the inverter was set-up wrong so we were not utilising half the power of the panels or the battery's discharge/charge capacity, effectively wasting energy for months. To be fair they did manage to get the EV working as a generator (in the end after weeks of trial and error) for the house where other electricians didn't want to go near that type of set-up. That's the advantage of cowboys/adventurous electricians, if you keep an eye on them they can give you what you want at a cheaper price. Just make sure you keep an eye though! 😅
DANGER: the at 6:58 dangelring around cable ends are DC solar cables ... Vapes contain Lithium batteries the absolutely don't like heat/cold ... Also heat drastically shortens the life span of electronics (epscially capacitors) & triggers overheat protection or lets the unit smoke/burn ...
The split panels on the 2 roof faces - without using micro inverters is a big no-no too. You can see that half are in the shade in the picture (so by-passing on the diodes), and if the sun is the other side, there might not be enough DC potential to turn on the inverter with the six-maybe panels by the dormer.
Just had a new installation I got asked to go and inspect as there was no stickers on the board turns out they didn't think identifying the conductors correctly was necessary they left blanks out of two other boards in the premises . It's getting silly . But they never get disciplined it seems ! Only the people wotha conscience should be working in this game .
We had issues with solar together based in london. The company was solar bureau and it feels like they hired cowboy installers to keep up with the extra jobs they took on. Moral of the story is dont use solar together.
We bought a house with solar pre installed. Turns out the surveyor couldn’t gain access to the roof where they put the solar, the roof is on the extension and was bodged by a self builder, and consequently isn’t strong enough to hold the solar, we now have a very saggy install and roof which I’ve had to put extra support in until I can afford to replace. Solar installer not interested nor was HEIS.
Good spot, Peter! We definitely know better than to stand on the top tread-lesson learned, haha! Glad you liked the install though. Cheers for watching and being part of the Artisan crew! Artisans… assemble! 💪
One of the reasons I might go for a cowboy is that they would promise to start next week. I asked you for a quote weeks ago and have heard nothing. Could you do a video on what badges/qualifications/certificates are worth their wight in gold, and which ones are available for £5 and mean nothing.
Absolute shocker of a job that one! See it far too often… Unfortunately these are the people who we loose jobs to as we are “too expensive” 😞 Also you didn’t mention whether the previous install was MCS registered or not, would be curious to know if they were
We also find that we lose work to the Solar together scheme or installers who somehow manage to install a full system for basically peanuts. It's very difficult to convey to the customer that the cheapest isn't always the bargain they have been looking for. We have been trading since 2014 and pride ourselves on the work we undertake, all our staff work in house for me with no sub contractors bar Scaffolding, at the end of the day, most consumers look at the costs before anything else. As a side note, all ST members must be MCS registered.
@@bas5946 honestly people wanting work done for peanuts has gotten so bad lately, at the same time I know jobs that were EXPENSIVE that were also cowboy installs so its not entirely that pay peanuts get monkeys is the case
I cannot imagine why people would put lithium batteries, solar chargers and inverters in such a hot environment, not only dangerous but losing a lot of efficiency not to mention reducing lifespan of components. Ridiculous!
About 10 years ago I had solar installed and I thought the guys did a pretty good job. Everything in the meter cupboard looked tidy, the inverter was in a space we call a loft but it's really just the top floor reachable by stairs and inside an insulated roof. The only thing that was questionable at the time was that they took an existing circuit for the washing machine rather than running new wires (which in this concrete house would be tricky). The placed a consumer unit in the loft with two MCBs, one for the new washing machine socket and the other for the inverter. It was only later that I learned that the 2.5mm circuit is really cutting it fine for 16 panels (of course not capable of today's output per panel). It is protected by a 16A breaker top and bottom but not great. Anyway I'd like to install (or have installed) a battery system as the current inverter cuts out as the voltage across that 2.5mm circuit appears to push the inverter output above 250V sometimes. I've seen a nice integrated inverter/battery system and would prefer to put that in the garage (built to be fire retarding) but that means running the DC to the garage two floors down. Is it sensible to run DC that distance?
Yes, that is sensible. It is not a long DC run (upstairs to down). My array of panels is 45 meters from my inverter having no problems and minimal line loss.
@christurner6430 I would look up what the anticipated line loss for the length you intend to run. Use the line loss charts to determine an acceptable loss and use that size conduit. Use wire gage chart to determine size of conduit for load. Go up in size of you don't like the loss. The run itself doesn't have much to do with size beyond what's acceptable loss. I'm ok with 5% loss.
When you’re hired to have a look at work like this and then proceed to correct said work from these cowboy tradesmen, do you ever report those individuals to governing body?…
Sad and dangerous. Imagine buying a house with all this in. If local council planning permission and post install inspection by council was mandatory (building control) this may curb these practices.
I saw this video alongside the Heatable one i was getting a quote for solar with battery quote with. So, have you been called out to look at any installations done by Heatable?
I had solar installed via a County Council promoted scheme - I had a 7kwh set of solar panels installed - but to avoid doing a G99 licence they installed an inverter far smaller than the system required. I think this is a scam. You are getting charged for 12+ solar panels and the whole system is constrained by the inverter. I think there are loads of installations with the same problem. I paid an extra £350 to have the inverter upgraded and applied for the G99 myself. I tried to inform the council but the person who rolled out the scheme had no idea what they were doing and no idea of what their preferred installers were doing - and when I pointed it out - they were just not interested.
Had an ECO4 ASHP Central Heating System Installed alongside a PV system by what I thought was a reputable energy provider. Ended up with flooded ceilings, no SPDs for the PV system etc... 12 weeks down the line, the compliant is due, I am taking legal action for breach of contract! What a hassle. Saying that, I still need my quotes for the remedial works. I dont suppose @artisanelectrics want to come out and make another video like this one about my install? Hmu
The problem is that even if we know there are cowboys, we won't know until they are finished. It's really easy to build a reputation by hiring in good people, or subcontracting and then switching your workforce. By the time the bad reviews come in, they have repeated the process.
Surely one way to stop all of this would be to only allow qualified electricians onto solar PV courses? Or would training companies lose a lot of money and they don’t want that?
Actually, it has to do with codification of code. Code is what is followed when installing things to a home. Code is written for the layman to understand or it may not be written. Why important? It's always been known that the safest way to develop is with code that everyone can read and understand. Once read, it is easy to understand how to move forward with whichever project is in need of attention. That said, your comment makes me think that as a man I shouldn't change diapers. I should only allow qualified mother's to change my baby's diaper. Just because you don't know how to do something, doesn't mean everyone should be considered equally incompetent thus requiring someone "qualified" to come save their day.
Is it normal for solar installations to need annual inspections? Plus they're constantly cold-called for 'free' inspections. It's always been working, but issues found. So far my parents' install over a decade has needed the controller changed otherwise they'd lose the FIT, a new inverter because the old one was too hot (loft mounted) and a new transformer because the old one "wasn't earthed that caused it to fail" (something was measured at 251V, though where this was I'm not sure). And those are the ones I know of.
Where in the regs does it say you can’t use the black core as the neutral? It doesn’t as long as it is identified at both ends as the neutral it is fine. The only core which can’t be over sleeved is the CPC.
Having the black as neutral seems the logical and sensible choice,? why not. I'm waiting for someone to answer your question 'where in the Regs does it state that black can't be the choice of colour neutral conductor'?.
can you recommend a good solar installer Dorset / Hampshire region we use octopus energy as a provider i notice they install solar panels / batteries are they any good ? thanks
In any industry, we should admire those who uphold high standards. However, given the limitations of your time and team, the key question is how to allow more people to receive fair quotes or access your installation services. Maybe exploring economies of scale to expand accessibility will truly beneficial to more people?
I'd take a DIY'er over an installer any day of the week. Just like I trust myself to install sprinkler system and mow my lawn correctly, instead of wasting money on landscape contractors who only care about the profit and bankrupt out when their work is held accountable.
Why is there not an independent body that carries out random audits on solar installs? I can see many a house fire happening if this standard of installs continues.
Here is a crazy fact, solar installers don't actually need any technical accredited training. They don't have to be an electrician ! These "solar companies" popping up everywhere usually only have one qualified sparky on the team who simply checks off the work, even if it's terrible. I'm a drainage technician, but I often end up working alongside these solar outfits on site. That's how I got all of this information through chating to some of the lads. I was on one job, and the lads asked to borrow some of my tools as they hadn't got anything with them. They were also smoking weed on the roof, so lovely and safe. I got my tools back, thankfully. It's just a bit of a disgrace, and it needs to be properly regulated. Even some roofing companies doing solar on the side It's a joke.
That Solis RAI battery inverter is connected to the meter in the CU next to it and then the CT connected to the meter needs to measure the grid. It doesn't care about the string inverter and definitely shouldn't be measuring the solar. The Solis battery inverter does come with an additional CT to measure solar generation from a separate string inverter but that is only for showing the production in the solis app. It has no bearing on the charge/discharge of the battery.
Agree the RAI (as opposed to the RHI which are hybrids) is AC coupled so only looks for net export at the tails and starts charging/discharging using the data it picks up using the Acrel meter which is the small DIN rail mounted jobbie with flashing LEDs in that extra CU - it also needs to face in the right direction otherwise it will get confused - the whole things looks like someone didn’t have a clue 🤦♂️
I won't touch solar or EV systems... All because I've not had any training on either systems... But I knew some years ago putting inverters and batteries in loft spaces is not a good idea, because of the heat that can buildup in lofts... Isn't it now illegal to install in such system in lofts? OR just a recommendation not to?
I totally agree - This install is a pile of shite :(( These so-called-sparks need a good kicking!! It's hard enough for us professionals to get customers to pay us a decent price for our skills & qualifications. Without cheapskates ripping customers off & giving us all a bad name. I come across installs like this all the time. To be honest, many are so much worse!!
Can't even begin to imagine seeing some worse than this one, it is such a shame to see all the professional sparkies being priced out due to this cheap prices.
@@artisanelectricsIt has nothing to do with price. The issue is MCS and the trade bodies that are responsible for the initial assessment and annual audits. None of these organisations are going to bite the hand that feeds them (their members).
I'm a professional electrical engineer, not tradesman. Frustrated that MCS seem to have a monopoly on so called 'competency' and hence access to SEG payments etc. I don't want to join a trade body, just as my consultant surgeon brother wouldn't join a nursing body. No insult intended. I think Artisan's work is very good. I'm assuming this install was done by a MCS registered company, in which case, it needs reporting to them. Has anyone done this? What was the MCS response? My Givenergy system has two CTs: grid and solar. Grid is essential so that battery can balance it's input / output vs grid export / import. It would appear the solar CT is just for logging purposes; so you know how much you're generating and can calculate the house load.
Even if the cable is rated for, I would never put DC voltage cables for solar installations directly on wood without a conduit, especially in places where no-one normally will have a look on it, like in a hot attic with flammable insulation everywhere. With the falling prices of solar modules and inverters, the technology gets more interesting for many people, on one side to take action against climate change an on the other side to save money. It's sad to see, that unprofessional companies harm the reputation of the trade and leave unsatisfied customers behind with such installations, only to make quick money. That you take care of it and try to save and repair what's possible, is great work.
@@VinoVeritas_ a 12Amp DC load on 4mm2 cable isn't an issues in itself for load capacity or cable rating , but that cable could be anywhere between 300-500V DC with no mechanical protection should the home owner accidentally snag, cut or damage the cable. Minimising risk is the key here. DC is a way more hazardous than A/C when it comes to arcing, Solar PV is from the panels is always live under any sunlight and cant be turned off!
Just from looking at that I can tell the installers have no electrical installation experience, PV Ultra cable is a must, we don’t use single core DC cable anymore.
key word there .... anymore. Not saying they actually knew anything on this install but installs using traditional DC cabling doesnt mean the install is bad or the installer(s) have no electrical experience. Also sometimes could be used on a budget install but still safely.
Yup. It’s a big mistake to think standards are changed because the old ones were useless. Loads of reasons from parity with other countries to simplification. It’s not like houses made to the old regs are bursting into flames every day.
You mentioned an RCD down stairs and 1 upstairs in the attatick. You went on to say that because of this there's no "Selectively" what do you mean by this?
in basic terms the selectivity is the co-ordination or function(s) of two or more protective units such as an RCD, on the occurrence of over current or residual current, the device intended to operate first does so while the other wont. Short answer, you need one RCD and not one each end of the circuit unless under specific rare circumstances.
That's really helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you. I had thought it was similar to that. The reason I ask is because we have a garage feed from a 10mm2 SWA with a 50A RCBO at the feed (house end). This goes to a garage consumer unit that then has a typical MB, RCD and then individual breakers. So I'm wondering if I need to get that looked at. I suppose having double residual current devices can't hurt? Whilst I appreciate it creates a maintenance and traceability issue when there's a fault..
I did my own install, while im sure it could be neater, it has been running well for 18 months and I didnt pay a cowboy firm a £10k premium. I have a 16kw single phase hybrid inverter, 31kwh of battery storage and 6kw of solar. Electric bill went from £250 a month to around £50. I very nearly went with solar together. Its good you highlight these issues. The main thing I learned is that almost everything in the solar setup has the ability to either kill you or burn your house down if not done properly. Even something as seemingly skipable like using a torque wrench on connections.
@@artisanelectrics Thank you for the reply, I’ve been quoted around 12k for the six panels I can fit on my roof, it’s an odd shape but perfect as it’s south facing and looks like it has a good pitch to me anyway, with a battery. So around 8k less than that.
Get yourself a work light rather than your phone light!:-) As a side note, we have rectified many Solar Together installations over the years. The lowest bidder wins these contracts and 90% of the time it's absolutely appalling the quality or workmanship.
The entire solar industry is full of cowboys - I worked for a "comercial grade" O&M a few years back - I walked away after 3 months because they were using people to do electrical work in combiner boxes (none of them qualified) that has 16-32 825V DC strings coming into them - and they sat on metal stools in puddles in a field whilst it rained - the "Authorising Engineer" who dealth with the 11kV was a chippy who had never done an 11kV course let alone one to be an AE. He was scarilly blazay about the dangers of both HVDC and HVAC. I reported the company to the HSE - who did NOTHING. I walked away from the industry at that point, I have been qualified and authorised to work on 11kV since I was 19 (39 years) - anyone who messes with that without knowing what they are doing is a criminal in my book. I have seen the aftermath of a VCB shorting out and blowing up in a switch room, luckily it was remote switched - not great though - cost about £2 million to repair the damage and then the cost of a data hall being offline as a result and the headache that caused.
Race to the bottom for some. Recently my field officer asked the EV installer from a major energy company what qualifications he had. Zero. It’s frightening that a big company will play the law of odds. Most jobs ok, poor one eats in to their profit. Stick to your guns - if they want a quality job, know you will come back, they are the customer to have.
Make sure to share this video, we want to help inspire change in the industry and make sure people get the best and highest quality install that they possibly can. It is time for us to do better, so let's change the industry.
I am sure a lot of these government backed schemes are free to certain customers and therefore, it is not their hard earned cash that is being taken but our tax money being wasted. In my view there is a degree of responsibility when providing funding for these schemes to ensure that the installers are reputable so that payments are only made after the installations have been verified by an independent assessor who cannot be linked in any way with the installers.
It is in my view lazy to simply provide funding but not put in place checking mechanisms to ensure above all, safety of customers.
@@mnaz748 All you've done there is demonstrate your ignorance. There aren't any government backed schemes.
Would you expect to see good ST installs though? They’d just be working, so you wouldn’t get to inspect them…
I've heard on so many occasions that the electrical industry is one of the most regulated trades. In my opinion, this is just not the case and it's smaller companies that suffer. When you have large enterprises like octopus energy carrying out EV charge points and now moving into the solar industry it makes a joke of our "heavily regulated industry". The standards in the UK are ever diminishing from the skilled engineers of our past.
@@michaelthompson1859it's pride in workmanship rather than skill & pride has been draining away since Thatcher's "there is no such thing as society" 😢
Thanks for taking the time to share this, Jordan. More and more people are getting fleeced by "cowboy" installers as the home solar market continues to grow in the UK, and as you say, these installers find it easy to hide behind councils in scheme-commissioned installs, with consumers not realising that those councils are purely facilitators, not holding any liability themselves. I recently released a video on my own channel covering the criteria that customers should be looking for when choosing an installer, to de-risk their project as much as possible. I'll add a link to this video in my post production notes as a good example of when things go wrong for customers who jump in blindly... Cheers, Gary Does Solar.
I’m pretty sure the CT clamp for the battery should be on the main incoming line so it can detect power being drawn from the grid and power being sent to the grid. If it’s on the solar line then that’s probably why it only charges and never discharge as it only ever sees the power coming from the solar 🤔
I had to write a letter to the installers exonerating them from any responsibility for me wanting the inverter inside rather than in the roof space . They maintained that the DC cables would overheat, and we would get virtually no power from the panels. I tried to explain cable loss, current and cable sizing! That did not go down well, as you can imagine!!
Keep up the good work.
Ray Peto
Wow that’s awful Ray sorry to hear you had such idiotic installers
I went with my local solar together scheme and the company did a cracking job they have been around for over 11 yrs and won awards for their business
It is good to hear that some installers have done well, it is not a case that all of them are bad but just quite a few cases of installers doing poor work.
I will by watching your videos and others I was able to ask appropriate questions about the instal , they did not instal anything in my loft their own policy it was neat and tidy labelled all works without issues
@@trisknight9430that’s great to hear! Sounds like you got lucky
Same here! Solar Together in Kent with a company based out of Suffolk. Fox ESS system (hybrid inverter and 5.18 kWh battery storage) with 7 kW Myzappi charger, full install for ~ £8500. Garage install for the battery and inverter. The post install pack included all relevant info (schematic / part P cert / MCS / DNO with copy of G99 form), issued by email as PDFs too!
Hello Jordon , I’m a mcs registered solar installer( sole trader with 34 years of experience ) I’m experiencing the same as you , cowboys especially through the solar together , this and other scenes give the cowboys a thin layer of respectability. I’ve never installed a inverter in the loft , apart from retrofit repairs, when I was trained we where told it’s bad practice and will dramatically shorten the life of the inverter,
On my own a domestic solar installation takes 1-2 weeks and everything is done to a extremely high standard, when I see 1 day installs alarm bells start ringing
Was considering Solar Together following West Berkshire Council recommendation.
The old adage ‘buy cheap buy twice’ was ringing in my head like a claxon! Thanks for this video, will keep undertaking my due diligence 👍🏿
Glad to have been able to sound the warning / ⚠️
The safest way is to keep trades away from your property as long as possible and certainly not sign up for non-essential work like for example a solar installation.
Solar Together sounds like one of those aggregator businesses that works with lots of different subcontractors - even if most of them are cowboys, some will probably be good people and that will be where the good reviews come from, if they exist.
There's a better adage: Want it done right? Do it yourself. Noone will care more for your house and it's safety than you will. 30 years in critical infrastructure has taught me the safest and best way to insure your work is done right is to grab your local, relevant codes and do it yourself. Google is more than sufficient to insure your have the right codes for planning. Draw your own plans and submit them. Then, follow them after they've been approved. The inspector will work with you through the process. If you don't want to do the work yourself, hire subs that your direct to do your bidding. They're affordable to remove the heavy labor. I'm, also, a paralytic who installed his own 6kW off grid system. Oh, get off the grid while you have a chance. That's a warning from "secret meetings" I've attended to help inform land developers what's to come in infrastructure.
@@matthewsocal2540 Getting off the grid is easier said than done. It requires decent sunlight all year round, not something we get in the UK. What do you mean "get off the grid while you have the chance" There is a very easy way to get off the grid, stop paying your bill, that will always get you off the grid.
Thanks Jordan. We need spot audits to be carried out on Cowboy Outfits by extremely high quality professionals in every county council. Flush the Beggars out Name and Shame.
All those free lights and promotional goodies and yet no decent illumination taking place in the loft , not even a headtorch from tools for sparks !
See this kind of thing over and over.
I’m a local heat pump installer as well as traditional systems and keep coming across installations of this quality.
So many organisations involved such as MCS and RECC but nothing changes, particularly with the bigger companies.
Hopefully things will improve.
Hopefully you’ll do an update on how you fixed everything and got it all safely working for the homeowner
Great video! It's so important to do our homework when choosing a solar installer 🌞
I live in the Rep of Ireland and like the UK some years ago there is now a big push on solar with Government grants available, and so many "solar install specialists" sprouting up everywhere.
I too live in the ROI and I’ve seen an alarming number of get-it-installed-in-a-day jobs. I’ve also noticed unmarked (and unorganised) vans apparently working “on behalf” of very well known companies. Doesn’t inspire confidence in the industry!
Very timely video. Had a Solar Together quote recently. The surveyor struck me as an ex-double glazing salesman. Really didn't gel with the guy. Pulled out but still waiting for my 'survey fee' refund. My advice is if you want to go solar find a proper independent professional.
If you pay cheap, you pay twice sadly so it is always good to go with a trusted installer.
Good stuff man thanks. Maybe you could find an adjustable lamp, so the video does not get overexposed in those dark attic shots. Very helpful content!!
Think you should name and shame these dodgy companies for the benefit of everyone. Great video once again 👍
I went for a mid range quote, not cheapest, nor most expensive. The amount of issues I had was ridiculous, I just flat out refused to pay until it was paid, was then threatened with debt collectors. Eventually they resolved all the issues, would recommend anyone doing reading up beforehand.
Thanks for sharing your experience-sounds like a tough situation! Doing thorough research beforehand is definitely a smart move, especially when dealing with mid-range quotes where expectations can be tricky. Glad to hear the issues were eventually resolved, but it’s frustrating when it gets to the point of debt collectors. Your advice to others will definitely help people avoid similar problems!
@@artisanelectrics basic advice would be pay the deposit or any payments via credit card, and only offer to pay a deposit. In my case they left 250kg worth of batteries on standard loft joists, panels installed so low rain would miss the guttering, broken meter box door, and as your video showed, all cables loose in loft, just to name a few. There was 15 issues I had to point out!
Threatening with debt collectors is a bluff if you are in dispute and would be enough for me to engage a solicitor. Check your house insurance to see if you have family legal cover and if it covers you.
@@davideyres955 its been resolved, it was always a bluff, I just continued to refuse to pay until it was resolved and they resolved all 15 items.
Great video Artisan! They have launched a Solar Together scheme in West Yorkshire. The supplier chosen is based near Kent! Solar Together is supposed to allow solar companies to bid for the work via an auction (Instantly a race to the bottom as the cheapest prices win's the work). Doesn't bode well for quality within the industry, whats more the scheme seems to cut out local quality installers from even having a chance at bidding for the work which is local to them as by the time installers find out about the scheme in their area the auction for the work has taken place months ago! It's sad that our local trusted councillors (in our case the Mayor) has endorsed such a scheme over endorsing quality local companies which will provide local jobs and aid the local economy and provide a better standard of work and aftercare no doubt!
Hey there, thanks for the thoughtful comment! Looks like you're a fan of “Solving The Money Problem” from your profile pic-love that channel too. You’re spot on about the issues with the Solar Together scheme. It's frustrating to see local, quality installers being sidelined in favour of a race to the bottom with pricing. These schemes should be supporting local businesses to provide not only jobs but also high standards of work and aftercare, just like you mentioned. It’s unfortunate when decisions like this are made without considering the long-term impact on local economies and quality. Hopefully, more people speak up about this so we can see a shift in how these programmes operate! Thanks again for sharing your thoughts
I'm from Germany. So when we install photovoltaic systems, the main string cables in the roof area are laid continuously in flexible protective pipe. If the strings are led down the facade, we switch over to aluminum pipe. The transition between the flexible pipe and the aluminum pipe is seamless, either with a connecting sleeve, or the flexible pipe is pushed into the larger aluminum pipe. Our string cables never see direct sunlight, even if they should. We use H1Z2Z2-k 1x6mm² cables, onto which we crimp Stäubli MC4 connectors. All cables are attached to the frame under the PV system with cable ties and cable holders so that they cannot rub on the roof. We install inverters and batteries either in the basement or in a garage if it doesn't get too warm. We use cable ducts for the wiring to and around the inverter. Below an inverter, the cable duct has the dimensions 60x110mm. For the cable routing, appropriate openings are created on the upper side of the cable duct using a step drill.
The openings are even labeled with labeling tape to indicate which cable is there.
Every cable gets a label flag so that you always know what it is and where it belongs if you have to disconnect it for whatever reason.
And yes, I (or we) have also come across some crazy installation methods. Flying wiring with air hooks seems to be modern...
One of our customers had the brilliant idea of measuring the string current on his own without us being there by setting a multimeter to 20A DC current measurement and holding the test leads directly to the + and - of one of his two strings... Ouch
I saw the slightly charred MC4 connectors because I had looked closely at the string cables and their MC4 connectors before measuring with the Benning PV1-1 installation tester.
I asked the customer whether someone had caused a short circuit. He was honest and took the blame and thought that this was the way how you could measure the available power.
I then had to explain to him that he had put his life in danger and that there are special measuring devices for this, such as the Benning PV1-1, and that after the short circuit he could expect that in the worst case scenario one or the other PV module could have been damaged. But he was lucky. His system works perfectly.
I naturally cut off the charred MC connectors and crimped on new ones.
Hi there
We have the same problem in South African, but we have found because the clients go for the cheapest quote. Then that is what they get😅😅
I can't wait to see how it should be done. Please do follow up asap please!!! 😊😊😊
My installers left a loose connection in the isolator switch. They failed to spot it when it caused the MCB to keep tripping after the first six months - but they did mess up the consumer unit in their efforts. They eventually found it a week after the entire installation stopped working another 6 months later (which they originally blamed on the app!). The arcing loose connection had burned and blackened the inside of the switch which had to be replaced and was a definite fire risk. I would never allow them anywhere near my home again. I'll pay to get things fixed rather than rely on their guarantee - I don't know what they might screw up next.
imagine you're vaping at work and throw it into customer attic too...
Good vid, I run an exterior cleaning business we also do solar cleaning. I’ve come across customers who have been not told about how to look after them, and sadly they get in touch 8-12yrs after never been cleaned full of mosses and lychin and other dirt, and some times loos brackets and fittings. I’ve had one customer who fully vented on myself and I share his frustration, he told me he was told by the company that installed it you don’t need to ether clean or service it’s a %100 free energy bar the install costs. But every so often I come across customers who have clearly been miss sold or informed. At the end of the day even if it’s not + you still need to inform the customer about Mantance needs.
I’m also starting to assess the costs of installing solar onto my home, but one of my worries is cowboys but also affordability, I’m currently crunching the numbers to work out do I take finance on some of it and also how much extra I’ll be paying pm while under finance see if it will be minimum around what I pay at the moment for electricity.
Love the earth sleeving on the charger..... Looks like they just split some earth cable and put the sheaf on there!
Yep 😂
Jordan, I’m so happy to see you on the jobsite doing the practical stuff 😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍
Loved that video!!!!
Glad you enjoyed the video!
Greetings again from remote rural off grid solar and wind NSW Australia 11 years ago I was a city lad took me four years or so 2 learn it but looking at that solar system woooooooooooo, made my mistakes along the way , I don't touch 240V or gas installs not qualified will change lpg bottles for stove ecet , 24V and a separate system for 12V LED lighting, but that job even to me was a major cluster F done by more than 1 yehhha cowboy.
I worked for a cowboy solar company who had work from eco4 schemes and they were very high pressured it had to be done in the day, everyone was rushing. Conduit runs that look like a snake up the wall, MC4’s made off with regular pliers, sagging solar panels cos they were short on brackets, carrying panels up the ladders with bare hands, bending busbar to make it fit in the main switch, throwing stuff on and off the scaffold instead of carrying it, not labelling, not even testing after install and just making up numbers on the EIC while driving home, the list goes on. I got out of there quick
I'm definitely not a cowboy builder solar installer but carrying panels up the ladder I prefer to using a pulley, as long as the wind is not going to be an issue I find it safer.. Never dropped one
Would you be willing to share your story with our audience?
So glad I've seen this video, spent a lot of time trying to understand how solar works, what pieces you need, how much power you need to generate in my location, what are the typical costs. Now it's time to figure out some other things, like what are the best practices that I should be able to spot. What are the ways to do install and put it all together, so that it stands up to weather, father time, continues to be reliable, and is not a health and safety risk. I was assuming that people go on training courses, and solar, being a new industry, would all be run by professionals. I know not to put batteries in a hot environment; here I see that converting DC to AC (inverter) is something that should not be in the roof space. Lots of very long wires (power loss?) if you put batteries and inverters at the bottom of the house? Some more things to think about...
Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Keith! It’s great to hear that you’re taking the time to understand how solar works and what to look out for in terms of installation and best practices. You’re right about the importance of proper setup, especially when it comes to things like placing batteries and inverters in safe locations and avoiding long cable runs to minimise power loss. Solar is definitely an evolving industry, and not every installer follows best practices, so it’s smart to stay informed. If you have any other questions, feel free to ask!
Really enjoy watching your videos, I am about to start a huge roll out of PV across uk and Europe and the resi insight really helps me get my head around what the team will be doing on the big sheds. Also what to look out for!
Interesting! Glad the video was helpful. Are you literally installing PV on sheds or is that a metaphor?
@@artisanelectrics sorry metaphor, big sheds (logistics buildings)
Hello, sparkie from Australia here.
28° is a cool day in a roof space here 😂.
Summer 38-40° outside is like 50-60° in a roof.
We've unfortunately had a few people die because of it here
Amazed to see you still rectified this despite the batteries being in a loft.
I would prefer to rip it all out and start again but that would cost the client a fortune and they can’t afford to pay for a system twice so they are pursuing action with the solar together scheme
@@artisanelectrics Surely safer to disable/remove whilst said action is pursued?
@@brettjtodd Sure it's slightly safer not to have any of that kit but they want the benefit of the equipment and it's not particularly dangerous, especially whilst reasonably new, so removing it all whilst having an argument would be an overreaction.
An ac isolator on the battery cables, good luck with that if there is decent dc current flowing!
I hope the homeowner had insurance when you filmed this, looks like a huge death trap.
They are still in talks with “Solar together” to try and get the situation fixed without having to fork out thousands for us to rip it all out and start again…
@@artisanelectrics Could you as a company even dare offer a warranty if you were to rework the installation, given the solar panel installation may be just as bad?
9:24 is that a DC feed to the battery going through what looks like an AC isolation switch with brown/blue colours - is that switch rated for DC operation?
I was thinking the same, fire waiting to happen
Yep that’s right ⚠️
OK, that _is_ bad. Most of the rest didn't worry me too much, at least in the short term.
When I come across poor installations like these. I recommend to keep the solar inverters off. I’m from a different country but we would have been the party that touched the installation last and if fire or other damages occur we can be held accountable. Seeing loose DC cables always raises red flags for me. On multiple occasions where I inspected the connecters, the pins where not crimped with an mc4 crimping tool but simply squeezed together with some pliars. I would not feel comfortable turning such solar installation back online after doing an inspection. Either way thanks for sharing this video to help raise awareness to the cowboys that are ruining this nice business.
Interesting to watch, i had a solar installation by Koze home ( cowboys )who according to there paperwork had all the correct certifications, BUT found out later, was all lies, and they 3ed party there work !.
In the end they paid me off & i Got a good electrician to take it all off & reinstall everything !, to the correct standards.
I did my homework, to confirm they had ALL the correct certificate's, via online.
Oh, and MCS sucks !!, sooner octopus sort them out the better 🤞
I had some cowboys/adventurous MSC accredited electricians install my second solar and battery install. The good thing is they were cheap and were the only ones who would install the batteries, inverter and specific off-grid set-up I wanted. They claimed to have it set-up but one of the strings was producing low power. I asked them to investigate despite them insisting it was normal and turns out several panels on a string were wired the wrong way around! I also found out months later that the inverter was set-up wrong so we were not utilising half the power of the panels or the battery's discharge/charge capacity, effectively wasting energy for months.
To be fair they did manage to get the EV working as a generator (in the end after weeks of trial and error) for the house where other electricians didn't want to go near that type of set-up. That's the advantage of cowboys/adventurous electricians, if you keep an eye on them they can give you what you want at a cheaper price. Just make sure you keep an eye though! 😅
If the.strings were wired wrong way round surely they wouldn't work sounds like it would be reverse polarity
When you get "electricians" who have only wired lighting and sockets on new build estates. This is what you get. It's above their understanding
DANGER: the at 6:58 dangelring around cable ends are DC solar cables ...
Vapes contain Lithium batteries the absolutely don't like heat/cold ...
Also heat drastically shortens the life span of electronics (epscially capacitors) & triggers overheat protection or lets the unit smoke/burn ...
The split panels on the 2 roof faces - without using micro inverters is a big no-no too. You can see that half are in the shade in the picture (so by-passing on the diodes), and if the sun is the other side, there might not be enough DC potential to turn on the inverter with the six-maybe panels by the dormer.
Just had a new installation I got asked to go and inspect as there was no stickers on the board turns out they didn't think identifying the conductors correctly was necessary they left blanks out of two other boards in the premises . It's getting silly . But they never get disciplined it seems ! Only the people wotha conscience should be working in this game .
We had issues with solar together based in london. The company was solar bureau and it feels like they hired cowboy installers to keep up with the extra jobs they took on.
Moral of the story is dont use solar together.
We bought a house with solar pre installed. Turns out the surveyor couldn’t gain access to the roof where they put the solar, the roof is on the extension and was bodged by a self builder, and consequently isn’t strong enough to hold the solar, we now have a very saggy install and roof which I’ve had to put extra support in until I can afford to replace.
Solar installer not interested nor was HEIS.
Don't you know that the top tread of a ladder is not for standing on!!!!!! Haha. Tasty install dude. Sort it out! Artisans... Assemble......
Good spot, Peter! We definitely know better than to stand on the top tread-lesson learned, haha! Glad you liked the install though. Cheers for watching and being part of the Artisan crew! Artisans… assemble! 💪
One of the reasons I might go for a cowboy is that they would promise to start next week. I asked you for a quote weeks ago and have heard nothing. Could you do a video on what badges/qualifications/certificates are worth their wight in gold, and which ones are available for £5 and mean nothing.
we have a random house here with all pannels on the opposite side of every other house in the area ...
Brilliant video highlighting the problems with SolarTogether. We get this all time. -Tok
Absolute shocker of a job that one! See it far too often…
Unfortunately these are the people who we loose jobs to as we are “too expensive” 😞
Also you didn’t mention whether the previous install was MCS registered or not, would be curious to know if they were
We also find that we lose work to the Solar together scheme or installers who somehow manage to install a full system for basically peanuts. It's very difficult to convey to the customer that the cheapest isn't always the bargain they have been looking for. We have been trading since 2014 and pride ourselves on the work we undertake, all our staff work in house for me with no sub contractors bar Scaffolding, at the end of the day, most consumers look at the costs before anything else. As a side note, all ST members must be MCS registered.
@@bas5946 honestly people wanting work done for peanuts has gotten so bad lately, at the same time I know jobs that were EXPENSIVE that were also cowboy installs so its not entirely that pay peanuts get monkeys is the case
I cannot imagine why people would put lithium batteries, solar chargers and inverters in such a hot environment, not only dangerous but losing a lot of efficiency not to mention reducing lifespan of components. Ridiculous!
😅😅 i see this all the time
Seen cables like swa put under tiles and not fused and not using electricians
This is bonkers. Jordan, you know my house is weird, but this is absolutely bizarre!
About 10 years ago I had solar installed and I thought the guys did a pretty good job. Everything in the meter cupboard looked tidy, the inverter was in a space we call a loft but it's really just the top floor reachable by stairs and inside an insulated roof. The only thing that was questionable at the time was that they took an existing circuit for the washing machine rather than running new wires (which in this concrete house would be tricky). The placed a consumer unit in the loft with two MCBs, one for the new washing machine socket and the other for the inverter. It was only later that I learned that the 2.5mm circuit is really cutting it fine for 16 panels (of course not capable of today's output per panel). It is protected by a 16A breaker top and bottom but not great.
Anyway I'd like to install (or have installed) a battery system as the current inverter cuts out as the voltage across that 2.5mm circuit appears to push the inverter output above 250V sometimes. I've seen a nice integrated inverter/battery system and would prefer to put that in the garage (built to be fire retarding) but that means running the DC to the garage two floors down. Is it sensible to run DC that distance?
Yes, that is sensible. It is not a long DC run (upstairs to down). My array of panels is 45 meters from my inverter having no problems and minimal line loss.
@@matthewsocal2540 Surely if there are doubts about excessive length of DC cables then run heavier-gauge cables?
@christurner6430 I would look up what the anticipated line loss for the length you intend to run.
Use the line loss charts to determine an acceptable loss and use that size conduit.
Use wire gage chart to determine size of conduit for load.
Go up in size of you don't like the loss. The run itself doesn't have much to do with size beyond what's acceptable loss. I'm ok with 5% loss.
Somebody needs to make database of good and bad installers.
When you’re hired to have a look at work like this and then proceed to correct said work from these cowboy tradesmen, do you ever report those individuals to governing body?…
Heat is a killer for UPS batteies, surely must be the same for PV batteries
Along with temps below freezing for PV batteries without protection/heaters
So where did you move the inverters from the loft?
Sad and dangerous. Imagine buying a house with all this in. If local council planning permission and post install inspection by council was mandatory (building control) this may curb these practices.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but as you climbed into the attic did you not just step on the part of your Werner ladder that is technically not a step? 😛
Not all solar together schemes are the same. Suffolk has had a good experience with their local supplier.
Will you be posting a follow-up video showing how you fixed it all please?
Yes if we go back to fix it we will - waiting to hear what the council can do first
As a solar installer all I can see is that they have gone to more effort to bodge it that do it properly
Starting to think this as well
I saw this video alongside the Heatable one i was getting a quote for solar with battery quote with. So, have you been called out to look at any installations done by Heatable?
I had solar installed via a County Council promoted scheme - I had a 7kwh set of solar panels installed - but to avoid doing a G99 licence they installed an inverter far smaller than the system required. I think this is a scam. You are getting charged for 12+ solar panels and the whole system is constrained by the inverter. I think there are loads of installations with the same problem. I paid an extra £350 to have the inverter upgraded and applied for the G99 myself. I tried to inform the council but the person who rolled out the scheme had no idea what they were doing and no idea of what their preferred installers were doing - and when I pointed it out - they were just not interested.
Had an ECO4 ASHP Central Heating System Installed alongside a PV system by what I thought was a reputable energy provider. Ended up with flooded ceilings, no SPDs for the PV system etc... 12 weeks down the line, the compliant is due, I am taking legal action for breach of contract! What a hassle.
Saying that, I still need my quotes for the remedial works. I dont suppose @artisanelectrics want to come out and make another video like this one about my install? Hmu
What's up with those panels? Why are they not all on one side? Could have done with a few more panels too.
The problem is that even if we know there are cowboys, we won't know until they are finished. It's really easy to build a reputation by hiring in good people, or subcontracting and then switching your workforce. By the time the bad reviews come in, they have repeated the process.
Surely one way to stop all of this would be to only allow qualified electricians onto solar PV courses? Or would training companies lose a lot of money and they don’t want that?
Actually, it has to do with codification of code. Code is what is followed when installing things to a home. Code is written for the layman to understand or it may not be written. Why important? It's always been known that the safest way to develop is with code that everyone can read and understand. Once read, it is easy to understand how to move forward with whichever project is in need of attention.
That said, your comment makes me think that as a man I shouldn't change diapers. I should only allow qualified mother's to change my baby's diaper. Just because you don't know how to do something, doesn't mean everyone should be considered equally incompetent thus requiring someone "qualified" to come save their day.
Is it normal for solar installations to need annual inspections?
Plus they're constantly cold-called for 'free' inspections.
It's always been working, but issues found. So far my parents' install over a decade has needed the controller changed otherwise they'd lose the FIT, a new inverter because the old one was too hot (loft mounted) and a new transformer because the old one "wasn't earthed that caused it to fail" (something was measured at 251V, though where this was I'm not sure). And those are the ones I know of.
Do you know of any good installers for the Kent / Bromley borders area by any chance
Where in the regs does it say you can’t use the black core as the neutral? It doesn’t as long as it is identified at both ends as the neutral it is fine. The only core which can’t be over sleeved is the CPC.
Correct I do believe Jordan is talking bollocks
Having the black as neutral seems the logical and sensible choice,? why not. I'm waiting for someone to answer your question 'where in the Regs does it state that black can't be the choice of colour neutral conductor'?.
I don’t think it was ever in the regs, but it was well known that they wanted people to de-neutralise the black to save confusion.
@@NickyLong89 No confusion to those who know what they are doing.
What was the status of charger warranty cover?
where did you get that work light from?
can you recommend a good solar installer Dorset / Hampshire region we use octopus energy as a provider i notice they install solar panels / batteries are they any good ? thanks
In any industry, we should admire those who uphold high standards. However, given the limitations of your time and team, the key question is how to allow more people to receive fair quotes or access your installation services. Maybe exploring economies of scale to expand accessibility will truly beneficial to more people?
Hi what’s the name of the screw driver brand you’re using ?
New white box above existing meter box?
I compare this with the numerous clean DIY installs you see out of the US... night and day
I'd take a DIY'er over an installer any day of the week. Just like I trust myself to install sprinkler system and mow my lawn correctly, instead of wasting money on landscape contractors who only care about the profit and bankrupt out when their work is held accountable.
Why is there not an independent body that carries out random audits on solar installs? I can see many a house fire happening if this standard of installs continues.
There should be…
Also don't forget do they share other peoples high-quality work on their social media.
You do wonder how some of these "installers" sleep at night!
Here is a crazy fact, solar installers don't actually need any technical accredited training. They don't have to be an electrician ! These "solar companies" popping up everywhere usually only have one qualified sparky on the team who simply checks off the work, even if it's terrible. I'm a drainage technician, but I often end up working alongside these solar outfits on site. That's how I got all of this information through chating to some of the lads. I was on one job, and the lads asked to borrow some of my tools as they hadn't got anything with them. They were also smoking weed on the roof, so lovely and safe. I got my tools back, thankfully. It's just a bit of a disgrace, and it needs to be properly regulated. Even some roofing companies doing solar on the side It's a joke.
That Solis RAI battery inverter is connected to the meter in the CU next to it and then the CT connected to the meter needs to measure the grid. It doesn't care about the string inverter and definitely shouldn't be measuring the solar. The Solis battery inverter does come with an additional CT to measure solar generation from a separate string inverter but that is only for showing the production in the solis app. It has no bearing on the charge/discharge of the battery.
Agree the RAI (as opposed to the RHI which are hybrids) is AC coupled so only looks for net export at the tails and starts charging/discharging using the data it picks up using the Acrel meter which is the small DIN rail mounted jobbie with flashing LEDs in that extra CU - it also needs to face in the right direction otherwise it will get confused - the whole things looks like someone didn’t have a clue 🤦♂️
Rai 3k needs 2 cts one for solar and one for mains. Chances are mains isnt connected properly or its the acr10 meter is connected wrong
I won't touch solar or EV systems... All because I've not had any training on either systems... But I knew some years ago putting inverters and batteries in loft spaces is not a good idea, because of the heat that can buildup in lofts...
Isn't it now illegal to install in such system in lofts? OR just a recommendation not to?
That EV charger sold by a company in Kent called Moss Electrical. I know this because my neighbour had one fitted and he says its terrible.
Ah interesting thanks for sharing - surprised they are still in business 😂
I totally agree - This install is a pile of shite :((
These so-called-sparks need a good kicking!!
It's hard enough for us professionals to get customers to pay us a decent price for our skills & qualifications. Without cheapskates ripping customers off & giving us all a bad name.
I come across installs like this all the time. To be honest, many are so much worse!!
Can't even begin to imagine seeing some worse than this one, it is such a shame to see all the professional sparkies being priced out due to this cheap prices.
@@artisanelectricsIt has nothing to do with price. The issue is MCS and the trade bodies that are responsible for the initial assessment and annual audits. None of these organisations are going to bite the hand that feeds them (their members).
I'm a professional electrical engineer, not tradesman. Frustrated that MCS seem to have a monopoly on so called 'competency' and hence access to SEG payments etc. I don't want to join a trade body, just as my consultant surgeon brother wouldn't join a nursing body. No insult intended. I think Artisan's work is very good. I'm assuming this install was done by a MCS registered company, in which case, it needs reporting to them. Has anyone done this? What was the MCS response? My Givenergy system has two CTs: grid and solar. Grid is essential so that battery can balance it's input / output vs grid export / import. It would appear the solar CT is just for logging purposes; so you know how much you're generating and can calculate the house load.
Even if the cable is rated for, I would never put DC voltage cables for solar installations directly on wood without a conduit, especially in places where no-one normally will have a look on it, like in a hot attic with flammable insulation everywhere.
With the falling prices of solar modules and inverters, the technology gets more interesting for many people, on one side to take action against climate change an on the other side to save money. It's sad to see, that unprofessional companies harm the reputation of the trade and leave unsatisfied customers behind with such installations, only to make quick money.
That you take care of it and try to save and repair what's possible, is great work.
A ~12A load on 4mm² double insulated cable isn't a risk when clipped direct to wood.
@@VinoVeritas_ a 12Amp DC load on 4mm2 cable isn't an issues in itself for load capacity or cable rating , but that cable could be anywhere between 300-500V DC with no mechanical protection should the home owner accidentally snag, cut or damage the cable. Minimising risk is the key here. DC is a way more hazardous than A/C when it comes to arcing, Solar PV is from the panels is always live under any sunlight and cant be turned off!
what light were you using up in the loft space?
Just from looking at that I can tell the installers have no electrical installation experience, PV Ultra cable is a must, we don’t use single core DC cable anymore.
key word there .... anymore. Not saying they actually knew anything on this install but installs using traditional DC cabling doesnt mean the install is bad or the installer(s) have no electrical experience. Also sometimes could be used on a budget install but still safely.
Yup. It’s a big mistake to think standards are changed because the old ones were useless. Loads of reasons from parity with other countries to simplification. It’s not like houses made to the old regs are bursting into flames every day.
You mentioned an RCD down stairs and 1 upstairs in the attatick. You went on to say that because of this there's no "Selectively" what do you mean by this?
in basic terms the selectivity is the co-ordination or function(s) of two or more protective units such as an RCD, on the occurrence of over current or residual current, the device intended to operate first does so while the other wont. Short answer, you need one RCD and not one each end of the circuit unless under specific rare circumstances.
That's really helpful and greatly appreciated. Thank you. I had thought it was similar to that.
The reason I ask is because we have a garage feed from a 10mm2 SWA with a 50A RCBO at the feed (house end). This goes to a garage consumer unit that then has a typical MB, RCD and then individual breakers. So I'm wondering if I need to get that looked at.
I suppose having double residual current devices can't hurt? Whilst I appreciate it creates a maintenance and traceability issue when there's a fault..
I did my own install, while im sure it could be neater, it has been running well for 18 months and I didnt pay a cowboy firm a £10k premium. I have a 16kw single phase hybrid inverter, 31kwh of battery storage and 6kw of solar. Electric bill went from £250 a month to around £50.
I very nearly went with solar together. Its good you highlight these issues.
The main thing I learned is that almost everything in the solar setup has the ability to either kill you or burn your house down if not done properly. Even something as seemingly skipable like using a torque wrench on connections.
I wanna see a tear down vid of this tbh…
@@AndyrATPL I wanna see Firefly get a new season. Fingers crossed for you.
I’d really like to have your company install my system but if you still have a £25k minimum install I’m stuck with the cowboys.
Depends on how big the system is but if you’re looking for solar and battery it’s very likely to be £20k minimum
@@artisanelectrics Thank you for the reply, I’ve been quoted around 12k for the six panels I can fit on my roof, it’s an odd shape but perfect as it’s south facing and looks like it has a good pitch to me anyway, with a battery. So around 8k less than that.
Get yourself a work light rather than your phone light!:-) As a side note, we have rectified many Solar Together installations over the years. The lowest bidder wins these contracts and 90% of the time it's absolutely appalling the quality or workmanship.
Thanks
Wait for part 2
It’s not the inverter that is the problem being in a hot environment, it’s the batteries. Heat kills batteries.
The entire solar industry is full of cowboys - I worked for a "comercial grade" O&M a few years back - I walked away after 3 months because they were using people to do electrical work in combiner boxes (none of them qualified) that has 16-32 825V DC strings coming into them - and they sat on metal stools in puddles in a field whilst it rained - the "Authorising Engineer" who dealth with the 11kV was a chippy who had never done an 11kV course let alone one to be an AE. He was scarilly blazay about the dangers of both HVDC and HVAC. I reported the company to the HSE - who did NOTHING. I walked away from the industry at that point, I have been qualified and authorised to work on 11kV since I was 19 (39 years) - anyone who messes with that without knowing what they are doing is a criminal in my book. I have seen the aftermath of a VCB shorting out and blowing up in a switch room, luckily it was remote switched - not great though - cost about £2 million to repair the damage and then the cost of a data hall being offline as a result and the headache that caused.
Race to the bottom for some. Recently my field officer asked the EV installer from a major energy company what qualifications he had. Zero. It’s frightening that a big company will play the law of odds. Most jobs ok, poor one eats in to their profit. Stick to your guns - if they want a quality job, know you will come back, they are the customer to have.
You should buy a taller pair of steps. Hopefully, HSE wasn't watching you climb in the loft.