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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 มี.ค. 2024
- In-depth analysis of Paul Atreides.
For all life, Frank Herbert believed heroes were a recipe for disaster. Even if we found a real superhero, he thought that flawed mortals would eventually gather around such a leader and form a power, and this power would somehow be abused. And with his Dune Saga, he actually warns us that a society relies on a single charismatic and powerful leader is in great danger.
For him, Paul Atreides is not a savior; he is not a chosen one. His destiny is a fabricated myth; it’s belief, it’s a lie…
I want to explain why.
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What Actually Is the Golden Path? | Dune Explained
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ironic that the link to this is pinned when it is also strongly suggested this is the main reason Paul chose to start the holy war, not revenge.
"The Golden Path" puts the universe on a different track. For example, we see bloodlines building and losing their strengths, which are centered around spice production. This is the cradle and the interface for all houses, for all races. This is how things are most familiar, via painstaking efforts, and the seeming madness of the overall picture. What the houses do to one another is controlled by the spice. It's used as a tactic. "He who controls the spice controls the universe!" Spice and the Bene Gesserit comprise the known universe. The Bene Gesserit order is usually in control. That changes. They have to compensate by creating another Arrakis. Spice production is greatly reduced and taken off-world. Arrakis is destroyed. There's manifest destiny. The son of Paul Atreides merges with the worm species, becoming one himself. Although he has more human intelligence than the other worms. Leto II is an agent of the underlying prophecy. As are the others. The power structure is destroyed and a new one emerges through Leto II. The idea is to take away the usual power structure of the Bene Gesserit and that which controls the known universe, the spice. The Golden Path distributes power more evenly, it equalizes the universe. In one sense, is a desert planet all that could be for those vying for resources and stability? Is the madness of Leto II just a fluke? There are clones (or "gholas'') as emotional interest for those readers and viewers who had their hopes dashed for long-suffering characters. Those who were slain mercilessly returned. The Golden Path is a rebalancing act. It sets the stage for what could be. The nasty sub-species, House Harkonnen, has ended as well. They weren't a house major and nobody appreciated them when they became a house major. The end of this house was certainly part of the new Utopia. There's more to say. I leave all this to both the viewership and the readership.
People are mad at chani, but chani is literally pointing out what the author was saying the entire time.
It's hamfisted and disrespectful to the character. Chani is ride or die in the books. She's a fn hardcore zealot like the rest of the fremen.
@@Kwisatz-ChaderachDoes it do anything other than show in the film a different perspective for the audience? I don't understand why people are so angry about such a departure, which does not interfere, but only reinforces Herbert's ideas
@@beden653 yeah. It makes Chani into an unlikable bitch.
@@beden653 Yeah. It misrepresents who these people are at their core. The Fremen are 100% on board with Muad'dib. They love him. He's theirs. If you need it spelled out in such an on the nose and obvious way, Dune is probably out of your paygrade. Remember, Dune is for anyone, not for everyone.
@@Kwisatz-Chaderach there is no complete society of absolute fanatics. Herbert understood this, Villeneuve understands this, but you don’t? You can't convey a character's complex internal dialogue without a voice over film. Adaptation is just that: adaptation conveys the same messages in a different way. "They love him. He's theirs. If you need it spelled out in such an on the nose and obvious way, Dune is probably out of your paygrade" - 1) This is not the idea I was talking about. 2) So Herbert had to write a second book clarifying, because readers did not understand correctly? funny. Can we just not step on the same rake? If we’re going to find fault with the film about being faithful to the book, then we definitely shouldn’t be talking about Chani in the first place.
Paul was literally playing 5d chess to get his revenge, manipulating everyone and finally becomes a man he didn't want to be.
"congratulations, you played yourself"
As written
LISAN AL GAIB!!
He himself was also being manipulated from many directions
@@hvitekristesdod So was Griffith
Sounds like Harkonnen propaganda to me dawg.
Underrated comment 😂
😂😂😂
😂😂😂 amazing
@@adityarajswamiagreed brother 😂😂 super underrated comment for sureee 😂🤣😭
😂😂😂
Paul is part Lawrence of Arabia, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and Genghis Khan. Fascinating character.
Love him but I think Frank Herbert could've write his story better, just an unpopular opinion. He has great ideas but I think his execution is a little bit poor.
@@KhalkedonYTna his writing is fantastic
@@riftplut0474Frank "voice-over" Herbert? He almost single handedly made omniscient narrators a crime in the not so stylistically sophisticate world of sci-fi.
no@@riftplut0474
Napoleon thought he was the Mahdi too after his Egyptian campaign. He thought it was his destiny
“This prophecy is how they enslave us!!” - Chani tried to warn them.
felt good to see her get silenced.
@@golagiswatchingyou2966what a weird thing to say.
@@JamesEvans97nah she was a little bitch that whole movie should have just followed in line like stilgar
@@golagiswatchingyou2966 why? She was right! Paul didn't care about the Fremen, only using them as slaves/tools to get what he wanted.
@@maleldil1 Nope. The prophecy literally came true. He's a superhuman being who can see the future. He freed them from oppression and eventually water is restored to Arrakis. Chani was wrong. Who was enslaving the Fremen? the Benne Gesserit? All their stupid plans blew up in their face and they lost control of the quizat haderach. The Harkonnens? They got obliterated. The emperor? Dustbin of history. Paul and the Fremen rise to ascendency. The other houses should have respected the new rightfully attained leadership. They got what they deserved.
The scary part for me was always the moment when I realized I would make the same choices he did. I think most men would. They killed his Father, his eldest son, his best friend and mentor, all of his people…You can call it vengeance, but in the hearts of most men that is Justice. I’d make almost any devils bargain if someone took that from me and I had the choice. That’s the damnable horrifying lure and I can see it. The monster is in the mirror.
I did what I had to. J.C.
Very well said briar
What’s wrong with that? I don’t see how Paul is a monster. He’s right
He saved humanity
His eldest son dies?
5:37 "Lead them to paradise," he commands what an icy expression. It's a call for sacrifice, disguised as salvation. A demand for his followers to die so he can win." What a definition! You are the few who can understand the true meaning of that and explain. Amazing video!!!!!
Lisan al Gaib!
Looked more like realization than chill. The jihad he tried to avoid was going to happen no matter what path he took. Knowing that it will lead to something better won't make the command to sterilize entire civilizations any easier.
Yes, the only one. He is the one
@@camgalloway691I am.
Yet still all these events will lead to the paradise
Paul is such a powerful figure. He desperately wanted to stop the fighting in "his name" and yet each step he took brought him closer to it.
Eventually bringing about a tyrant. Fulfilling his visions.
He was nothing compared to his son, Leto Atreides the 2nd, God-Emperor of Dune, who ruled the entire mankind for 3500 years. But in the end God-Emperor's plan saved mankind from stagnation and degradation.
Good. That tyrant saved humanity.
@@kamchatmonk Paul also saw the Golden Path - that's why he did what he did, to save humanity from extinction!
Leto the second taught man to not look for messianic saviors. To save themselves.
@kamchatmonk the point of Leto and the golden path is that people after would have inherent resistance against tyrants. A lesson so engraved to humanity that they would not forget it.
Paul: breathes
Stilgar: IT IS AS WRITTEN!!!
hahahaha
I loved Stilgar in Part 2, but I can't shake the feeling how the fanaticism is the same in Monty Python's "Life of Brian" XD
He sheds water for the dead.
Muadeeb
But in "Life of Brian", his mom pushed in the opposite direction. "He's not the Messiah! He's a very naughty boy!" 😁
In our theater the audience chuckled when Paul denied being the Messiah and the next shot was Stilgar saying to some others “Only the Messiah would be humble and deny it”.
Prophecy gives people pareidolia.
haha me 2. he is one of my fav actors too
@@calebmusselman I've been twice and both times people chuckled/laughed. While it wasn't this obvious in the book, we agreed that for the movie purposes having Chani vs Stilgar so clearly voice the stuff that was kind of going on behind the scenes in the book and would otherwise be difficult to express in a movie, it was a great choice. Aslo showing how from friends and mentors they become blind followers. This kind of stuff would be (and is) super hard to portray and yet Denis Villeneuve managed.
After he drinks the water of life he sees what becomes “The Golden Path”. Which he knows he has to become the villain of the universe and oppress the people. He was not able to do it, so his son did it. Leto II, the God Emperor causes humanity to reach the Golden Path by starting the great scattering. If you look at Paul’s story it’s quite insignificant compared to his son’s story.
I’m pretty sure he sees the golden path after Leto is born
Isn’t it that he was afraid of the golden path and didn’t dare walk it?
Leto confirmed that Paul saw the Golden Path before him (most likely after drinking the Water of Life) but he resisted following it completely because of the horrors. Leto is who Paul "should" have been but Paul legitimately had too much humanity to embrace the "Kwisatz Haderach" fully.
I think the “Golden path” is a very strange narrative concept. Because it justifies tyranny for bullshit reasons (prophetical powers), so humankind can finally reach a state without those imagined powers, like in our real reality. I don’t get it tbh.
@@CheemSawManI have done it. Thankfully it didn't take 3500 years.
Small point-There are two “The Ones.” The Bene Gesserit Kwisatz Haderach, the male bred to see the past and future, meant to be exploited by the Bene Gesserit. Not a religious figure, but a tool. And the Fremen “the One.” The Lisan Al-Gaib. A false messiah planted by the Bene Gesserit.
Paul is the first “the one” and uses his power and training to feign being the second one.
One thing I don’t like about the movie is the compressed timelines, this took many years in the novel. Also, the Great Houses accepted his betrothal to Princess Irulan and the war began anyway
Yeah, people fail to understand that there are effectively two "prophecies" in the story and Paul ends up fulfilling both; one because he was bred to do that, and the other out of circumstance and his own manipulation.
If I remember correctly, he is not really Kwisatz Haderach, he is something else. I agree about the timeline compression, it should have been three movies. It forced too many compromises, including changing the nature of both Jessica and his relationship with Chani.
There is only one real kwisatz haderach in the end
And it’s no Atreides
@@lXlElevatorlXl There were a few Kwisatz Haderachs by the time of Chapterhouse… those damned gholas…
@@richlisola1 skill wise yes but they were no „real“
"He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"
😂😂😂
Monty pythons life of Brian
😂😂😂😂😂
Yeah,naughty.Wait until you see God Emperor and Herectics 😂
New Chosen One trope: I am pre destined by the Universe to commit atrocities
So which race is genociding the palestinians?
That's not new, alas.
Kid named the anti Christ
Thanks I'll use this trope on that villain I drafted.
Moses spoke to the lord ( the ark) the ark is Akhenaten an egyptian stargate. These are shuva lingam objects like the mahabarata weapons and aladins lamp. Connected to angels and demons. Moses used the ark to take down Palestinian forts.
He is so similar to Eren Yeager it’s insane. From the “Hope of Humanity” to “Devil of Paradise” . I’m sure Isayama used Paul as an inspiration.
Except movie chani has agency and not annnoying and obsessed like Mikasa
you mean eren yaeger is similar to paul
I thought the same!
@@user-lu9bg4ll6v Mikasa has agency. She initially wanted to go where Eren goes but she didnt blindly follow Eren the moment their beliefs diverge. In the end, she chose to do what is right for the world.
@@ipromisethatserendipityisa9656 True , if Mikasa doesn't have angency, she would've joined Eren and pro 100% rumbling
Thank you. I've been trying to get people to see that Paul is a victim, not a hero, for 45 years. It doesn't seem subtle to me, but most people can't (or won't) see it. The movie makes it even clearer, and most people are still missing the point. I suspect this is a measure of the intensity with which most people yearn for a Messiah to relieve them of their moral agency.
I think the main problem is that no one read past the first Dune book. I cant really blame them because the quality falls off sharply after Dune 1, but Dune messiah does do a better job of showing that Paul is a victim.
There are people who accept to be deceived, even without realizing it. Wich is why it is very difficult to understand this.
Relieve them of their moral agaency.. liberalism is the only thing that has ever done that.. fighting for your beliefs is literally fighting to uphold morality itself.. you people are delusioned by modern ideals which is no less cultish.
Never seen or read Dune before.
What I was looking at, was a simple liberation of the people of Arrakis and giving them back their land aka it's just some white guy liberating the darker skinned people again.
All of this extra stuff is cool like taking Gatorade to see the future but it gets way too complicated or weird towards the other books like being one with worms (you fans know).
When he said there will be water, I thought the Arrakis will die and their body water will be used to make Arrakis paradise but that also kills all the worms and desert creatures so I knew there was some kind of sacrifice.
So, I think as a non-fan watching, it's good the director is not going to do the whole series of books as it's too weird after he liberates the Fremen.
"Thank you. I've been trying to get people to see that Paul is a victim, not a hero"
False dichotomy, baseless assertion. "Heroes" don't exist. Neither do "villains", or concepts like "good" or "evil". Morality is arbitrary and amounts to nothing but personal preference and emotional sentiment. It is not logical, rational, scientific, or in any way "objective".
" The movie makes it even clearer, and most people are still missing the point."
The "point" is whatever people imagine it to be. The creator of a piece of media has no monopoly on it's interpretation.
" I suspect this is a measure of the intensity with which most people yearn for a Messiah to relieve them of their moral agency."
Moral agency does not exist, since free will does not exist, and all actions are equally justified. Christ and Hitler are morally identical.
One of the criticisms the adaption gets regarding Stilgar is how fast he shifts to true believer, which definitely has truth behind it, but the entire time I was watching there's a specific part of the book that kept popping into my head regarding him.
I can't remember if its when Paul goes south or at the very end of the book, but he's looking around at everyone worshipping him and recognises that Stilgar is no longer a person but a creature and fears that Gurney may become the same.
The entire of part 2 that section kept coming into my head.
It’s when they bring the emperor to Paul I think. It’s either stilgar or another fremen that says it but Paul muses when did stilgar become a follower and not a friend
That was the moment that drove the ending home for me the first time I read it. I don't understand how some say the ending of the first book felt triumphant. Even before I fully knew what was coming, it felt bittersweet and ominous.
Gurney is the same man who followed Leto, he’s now only more driven as a part of his revenge against the great houses who ordered his lord’s death.
In Dune Messiah a Fremen officer by the name of Korba, who was also a fervent supporter of Paul, turned against him and ultimately blinded him using a stone burner. He was ultimately executed by Stilgar who was more level headed. I believe in the new messiah movie could have Stilgar replacing the role, and Gurney executing him at the end
I think Javier Bardem's performance captures this transformation very well and might be why this part of the book pops into your head. By the end of the movie he's screaming Lisan Al'Ghaib and bulging his eyes out like a madman. The faster transition necessitated by the film kind of makes it seem like that follower was always in him but the events of the story lets it come to the surface, a microcosm of what happens to all of the Fremen. The last shot of his crazed screaming as the Fremen board the ships in particular really sticks with me.
Denis’ adaptation is phenomenal and while it is a warning against a messianic figure its important to remember it is NOT a revenge story. Due to his prescience Paul can see all realities and this changed him drastically. So much so that revenge doesnt cross his mind at the climax of the story as he is no longer Paul but rather Lisan al Gaib. This is important because the movie potrays Paul with a sort of arrogance and selfishness towards revenge but it misses the point of how him fully unlocking his prescience shows him the brutal but necessary path he takes and eventually his son finishes. Paul in my interpretation of the books is the antihero who did what had to be done and the fact he was a regular human before allows the reader to relate in some capacity and show that anyone could be capable of this.
The real 200 IQ interpretation
Thank you ! The prescience of Paul is real and paramount in the books, and portraying him as a selfish manipulative liar is very wrong. As the Kwisatz Haderach he becomes something more than human. Actually the Golden Path is the only way for humanity not to go exinct, which explains the choices made by Paul and his son.
I generally agree. Only thing I would disagree on is his role as the "antihero." Frank Herbert was intending to give the reader a leader who was somehow put into the largest and most complex trolley problem of all time. He also warns that society tends to thrust leaders into positions where they make decisions for us that aren't meant for "us." It's meant to make us question the various morals and ethics of the decisions made both by Paul and his worshipers. Should we be willing to sacrifice our lives and kill billions of people in the name of a messianic leader? Is it even the proper moral/ethical decision to save humanity thousands of years in the future by creating so much death and suffering? Another way to think about it, if the Fremen didn't have such strong and absolute faith, the Jihad would have never happened. In many ways, it's ridiculous that people blame Paul for all this when the worshipers of the Messiah are the ones who are actually creating the suffering. Paul isn't a hero nor is he a villain. He is a leader whose role as a leader ended up being his greatest flaw and tragedy. All this being said, Frank has specified that calling Paul's path necessary misses the true point of the novel. It is necessary simply for a goal. But are the costs worth it to achieve that goal?
Frank didn't like that people just saw Paul as a cool hero and wrote Dune Messiah and Children of Dune to clarify his message. Paul falls into a deep depression after the jihad. His son is born and turns out to have prescient powers far beyond Paul. Paul essentially submits that he is unable to do what is needed to be done and Leto II must instead fulfill the Golden Path. Clarifying Frank's message is largely why Leto II's main goal is to create a society where messianic figures cannot exist in their absolute form. It is also incredibly ironic because Leto II is the true Kwasatz Haderach in the purest of definitions. The true messiah. I theorize that Frank wrote Paul's depression and created Leto II as a way to free the reader from the hero bias given to Paul from the first book.
why does this remind me of Eren Yeager from Shingeki no Kyojin?
@@ishita8486 both characters have similar powers but the scale of their dilemma is not even close.
Eren tried to save his people by selfishly assuming that committing genocide was the only way, blinded by his own hate which at the end he doesn't even assume.
While Paul is selflessly sacrificing his mental state, trying to preserve the entire human race knowing that the only path to do that is a massive genocide (of a scale far bigger than Eren's).
IMO Paul did become the "real" messiah by the end, but that's precisely why he's dangerous.
"Fake Messiah" is actually two fold:
1. The myth of mahdi or messiah was planted by Bene Gesserit, the very people who were commited to this breeding program that produced Paul. So the "prophecy" wasn't really any prophecy at all, but a calculated and meticulously executed plan.
2. Paul didn't even measure up to this manufactured "prophecy" up till the point when he drank the water of life. To my understanding, the Bene Gesserit's manufactured myth about a Messiah was actually meant for a fully realized "kwisatz haderach" who has drunk the blue water and unlocked his full potential. But Paul didn't have the luxury of time to drink the water in a safe Bene Gesserit environment because his family was thrown into the chaos of Arrakis by the emperor's schemes.
You can tell the myths were for a full kwisatz haderach because they said he "speaks your language" and "knows your ways". Normally an outsider wouldn't have this knowledge unless they have the ancestral memory thing. Paul and Jessica had to try hard to fit into this bigger shoe than who they really were. Luckily, Jessica being a member of Bene Gesserit, had intimate knowledge of the plans of the sisterhood and was very familiar with the religious stuff they brainwash people with. Thus they had a better chance of "cheating" their way into the Fremens' belief. Were it Feyd-Rautha who was put into Paul's position, he wouldn't do nearly as well as Paul did with the Fremen.
But in the end, both of the two "fakeness" were subverted:
1. The Bene Gesserit ultimately failed to control Paul, leaving him free to promise to the fremen what they desired. In a word, Paul is truely "of the fremen, by the fremen, for the fremen" at this point, instead of being a tool for an ousider organization. With the Harkonnens dead and the Sardaukars annhilated, his vengeance against the emperor and baron were complete and he didn't need the jihad for himself. He only did it because the fremen wished it.
2. Paul did drink the water and become the almost omniscient super being. He faked it until he made it.
You don't get to start an intergalactic massacre without becoming the true messiah.
Paul knew that he as frail mortal human was not that important for agenda of fremen extremist. If he would "rock the boat" the fremen would just assassinate him, made some religious nonsense up and carried the jihad out with their new "immortal" leader. Only way to actually change things was to survive the assassination attempts and Paul knew that this could be done only by sacrificing ones easily breakable human body. So yes Paul is "leader" of fremen at gunpoint.
Best comment on here
''I don't care what you believe, I believe!''... Stories have a life of their own...
so did he fake it all or was it destined....
@@_ace786 the fremen prophecy is a lie made by the benne gesserit hundreds of years ago, they do this to ease the 'primitive' cultures into accepting their future product of breeding, the Kwisatz Haderach, who they want to control into leading humanity to the 'best' timeline, hence why there are similarities between KH and lisan al gaib. 'power over spice is power over all' spice enchances the visions, and the worms's water of life is what unlocks the ancestral memories for the Reverent Mothers and what unlocks Paul's full potential as KH. Paul is the KH because he has the power to see the past and the possible futures and access all the memories, and his mother and then he, uses this status to manipulate the fremen religion and the entire fremen race to fight for him. But he isn't the KH the benne gesserit planned for or wanted because a) they cant control him b) he was born a gen earlier. His son is a more powerful KH, which makes sense considering the breeding program would result in offspring from Jessica and Leto's daughter to be the most powerful being. So no, it wasn't destiny, it was hundreds of years of breeding and religious engineering on benne gesserit's part combined with manipulation to save humankind on paul's part.
Why DUNE's Promised Messiah Is A Lie? | Dune Explained
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IMO he became a self fulfilling prophecy. The Lisan Al Gaib may have been a manufactured story in service to the Bene Gesserit but Paul was the Kwisatz Haderach and ultimately did fulfil what the prophecy said the prophet would do. So then you can argue that the prophecy was actually real all along and the Bene Gesserit had unwittingly unleashed it because they thought they had final control over all things but in fact lost control when the KH came a generation early and not via their design.
Leto II was far more disturbing than Paul himself.
I just can’t wait to see the Leto II/ Worm emperor and who will they have play Paul son .
Great video and very thought provoking! The paradox I saw was that Chani wants to buck the system but doesn't have the charisma to garner the Fremen consensus in the way that Paul does. To shift the Fremen's direction to her goals, she'd have to be just as if not more charismatic and that would probably still end in chaos.
My own algorithm for YT has been the source of a LOT of quality, thought provoking, deep, and generally interesting (to me) content. And because of this algorithm, I will occasionally be suggested a channel or video like this one.
Instant like & subscribe after the video ended.
Your analysis was excellent! It was informative, concise, and you had a nice way of articulating certain points with facts and alternative thoughts, without injecting your own opinion.
Your comment reflect the answer to the final words of the video: let AI decide who shall get access to the resources (based on CBDC-data with a focus to value maximizing based on the people`s needs (= based on the market - but with the people do have a CBDC-backed UBI so they can become free. finally.)
Well done commentary and video on top of it. From a lifelong fan of Dune, well done.
Also its important to mention that in addition to his lineage, spice consumption and Bene Gesserit training he is also trained in the ways of the Mentats by the Atreides mentat and even in the ways of the Suk school by their physician if I remember correctly.
Basically Paul has access to teaching and techniques as well as education far above the normal person and he wield all of that at the same time as well as prescience. Even if its all human made stuff no wonder it look like a messianic figure to a regular human.
Best explanation yet!!! Your voice is so calming.
This breakdown and explanation really helped a lot. Thank you! 🎉
this leads to my one small nitpick of the movie.
the fact Paul and his mother survived the desert, especially the windstorm, he survived drinking the water of life, survived a fight with a psychotic Fayd, rode the largest worm ever seen by the Fremen for his very first ride,…..all these coincidences and others along with his abilities seem to make his “Chosen One” status less vague.
Everything you mentioned is a result of his breeding or his extensive training. He survives the Water of Lfie because he is the Kwisatz haderach, not because he is the Lisan al Gaib. They are two separate things. He was bred to survive a similar drug to the Water of Life that the Bene Gesserit use for the same purposes. He survived against Feyd because of his extensive training with the best swordsmasters in the universe. Same for riding one of the largest worms ever seen - he was trained to be a genius mentat as well as everything else he is, so that combined with his martial arts training would mean he could handle that.
There are basically two prophecies in play. He is the Kwisatz haderach, he was bred to be that. He is only the Lisan al Gaib out of circumstance and his own training, nothing supernatural or mystical.
@@stephengrant4841 idk seeing the future seems like “Lisan Al Gaib” stuff
@@stephengrant4841 This is what's compelling about Dune's writing (both book and film) - it's layered and always blurring the line between man and myth, asking you at every turn "are you a skeptic or believer?" What's true? Is it all realpolitik - a conspiracy of self-interested forces, or is it actually destiny and the coming of the "great man of history"? Herbert provides a sci-fi materialistic explanation for all of the supernatural elements, but how much of the story would've changed if Paul was 100% divinely inspired? True or not, It's the true believers that end up shaping the world
@@stephengrant4841
him doing that “jedi trick” of letting go of the ornithopter controls in the middle of a massive sandstorm….and surviving is too much of a “chosen one” trope. and that has nothing to do with training or selective breeding.
and no amount of training how to fight, or any Bene Geserit mumbojumbo will summon the LARGEST sandworm ever ridden, on the FIRST ATTEMPT even, and successfully ride it.
and the fact he’s dreaming about people he hadn’t met yet just screams of supernatural abilities.
if Villeneuve wanted to make Paul’s “messiah” development a little more vague, he should have at least not included 1 or 2 of those “supernatural” elements from the movie.
Hitler also has a similar story where he survived a gas attack that no one thought he would in WW1. He was partially blinded and then when he recovered the doctor told him how lucky/special he was. This made him believe that he was indeed the chosen one, to save the German people. Adding to this, subsequent luck saving him from several assassination attempts like the Valkyrie plot only strengthened this belief. He often said that his mind was like a human calculator and he could see the future. So maybe all the "supernatural" stuff was from Paul's perspective and how he later framed it, but from a neutral perspective they were simply coincidences or were completely delusional and outright false.
The scary ting isn't the notion of a messiah but, rather, the fanatical believers who will cast aside all morality and agency in order to see their own worldview made real. There are more than a few people in this thread who clearly believe it's okay to commit atrocities so long as it's THEIR messiah being uplifted and THEIR prophecy being fulfilled.
yep as we see with Jesus and Mohammed with many millions killed thanks to them
Morality is just personal opinion, and "agency" doesn't really exist, since free will is not real.
" There are more than a few people in this thread who clearly believe it's okay to commit atrocities"
There is no such thing as "atrocities". All actions are morally equal. There is no logical, rational, or scientific reason why Jeffrey Dahmer was "wrong" for doing anything he did.
For example Israelis awaiting their messiah committing Genocide right now in Palestine. Also happenes to be funded by our tax money US.
More people here should talk about i$|@m and their it’s prophet, both are dangerous for today’s society. As can be seen in today’s time with what its followers do and justify anything their prophet did.
@@accelerationquanta5816 free will isnt real... may you please explain. and morality is a thing it is contracted by humans for humans it is a thing that has emerged in an evolution like process in order to create a society and make it a powerful one also you are just revealing yourself as a psycho by saying that a literal murderer who destroyed the life of so many taking what they care for most in a horrible brutal way and the only reason people like him are alive is because they hide in the shadows scared of people with actual power and morality to come stop them if they dared raise their head up they would be dead because they are weak and animal like atrocities are a thing and let me tell you if you truly do believe that your dna will be wiped off this planet and your body will be buried in a nameless grave in which no one will come to visit you
You've hit upon the genius of Herbert's story and character development. Those who only read the first book often miss this darker side of the overall story of Paul. It really only becomes clear in Dune Messiah.
It's a sad testament to Herbert's point. The fact that so many see Paul as the "hero" or "good guy" has always depressed me. I actually enjoyed Lynch's version, but I hope the fact that Villeneuve wants to do the second book helps make it clear to more viewers. I feel Lynch's version didn't convey that message.
no one cares about the other books
Very nice amazing thoughtful analysis done spanning entire character arc of Paul and the Messiah complex. Simple words used but through all points explanation covered... Nice effort. Please make more such videos... Loved it 🎉👌🏻😎😀
He kept saying he was not the chosen one many times, the spice and life of water messed him up.
He’s obviously the chosen one
Why you say that
@@Pretty_Fly_White_Guywhy you say that
@@baconeggcheesepodcast9390 because he fulfilled every prophecy
@@Pretty_Fly_White_Guy There is no chosen one. There are multiple people like Paul, bred by the Bene Gesserit.
In some sort of way; Attack On Titan and its protagonist Eren Yeager is also another parallel retelling of Dune’s Paul Atreides
I was thinking the same thing. Eren has access to the memories of every attack titan that ever was and ever will be. He has no future memories, implying that the cycle ends with him. Grisha is able to see what Eren will do, and it horrifies him.
Knowledge of future events ensures you are trapped by them in Dune, it seems to also apply in AoT.
Not really Eren and Paul both different
@@gametvon98 thats not true. They both are different characters but they are led to commit Genocide due to their being no other option. Eren killed all enemies to save his home and dune waged the Holy war to save freemen.
istg when I watched Dune, I was like did Isayama read Dune before he did AoT lmao
Somehow even Frank is conflicting himself with the story, because Paul's jihad is justified by the Golden Path, which Frank wrote and Paul's son took.
If Kwisatz Haderach would have landed under Bene Gesserit control, doubt that they would have used him for good, so this way, Leto II was free from the witches control to save humanity.
Preciselly 🎯
You get it! Others don't because they need to read the books
I mean it has to be justified to some degree. You can't write a prescient character without having some ideal end point, albeit a tragic one. It would be like making the Avengers fail after Dr.Strange took the steps he did to ensure a specific future. I really like the idea tho, because it highlights that even if the end goal may be "good", who is it good for? And is it truly justified if man's own limitations can only create a future through horrific means. Even with all the foreknowledge in the world, people suck
It is on a grand scale justified by the Golden Path yes, but looking at the big picture one of the primary things the Golden Path was accomplishing was freeing humanity from prescience. In that sense you can think of it as cleaning up the Bene Gesserit's mess. The way I see the series, the jihad or an event like it was inevitable because of the way humanity had become constrained by the various powers in the universe. The jihad wouldn't have been as inevitable if the universe was less messed up, and as such I don't think it's a contradiction to say that it was a terrible thing but that it was by a certain point necessary.
Mostly correct. The jihad was not "justified" as much as it was an inevitable event, no matter which path is taken.
As a Christian I know that the dune books and movies are supposed to be anti religion but I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what it says. I love how it shows that no mere human can be a messiah because we can’t, we are flawed and sinful. I also agree that religion can be used as a tool, but I wouldn’t say that automatically makes it not true though.
Your prime example of the dumb people of Spice planet grow up buddy.
While I kinda agree, I also feel like the "religions" that Dune presents are very weak and not convincing. Maybe the books do a better job, but the movies felt like they are anti-whatever atheists understand religion to be. Which is pretty shallow. Everytime they tried to convince paul that he was a Messiah I was also rolling my eyes. I think other series have done a better job at building up a character. Cool movie though.
@@hectorgarcia9783 i agree with you on some of the stuff like the part where stilgar says it was a fulfilled prophecy that he would be too humble to call himself the messiah, but I also see parts that can seem very convincing like Paul’s speech in the cave where he was able to tell people things that only they would know within their inner thoughts.
Believe is fine. Relgion is flawed in it‘s core. When you make believe a tool and controllable it becomes toxic.
The bible literally says we can't be the messiah, only Jesus can. We would fail if we took the mission of Jesus. Jesus wasn't just human but God too and he was perfect, he didn't fail his mission to save us all and didn't sin. Us humans are too imperfect and will definitely fail in God's shoes
Beware those that promise paradise.
This was just beautiful made in every respect 👏 Thank you for sharing.
I like how you can see the inspiration that Dune has on Star Wars. In ROTS, Anakin ceases to exist and becomes the tyrant Darth Vader, and in Dune Paul ceases to exist and becomes Muad’Dib.
Somehow Baron Harkonnen returned
Oh wait
Beautifully written and so informative thank you 🙏
I saw the second film just this week. And although I found it a little rushed in some places, I was all in all thoroughly impressed. I really hope DV gets to make more of these; I am very curious to see how he handles Children of Dune, especially.
My understanding is that the movies are intended to be a trilogy. Dune Messiah is the next movie. I dont think he is going to cover Children of Dune.
@@ed8054 That would be a shame, but ah well.
Bummer. I'm really curious to see how they'll handle children of dune too
@@monkeybusiness673 It’s always (at least since starting actual work on part 1) been his plan to make Messiah and stop. He’s said pretty consistently that he had no interest in anything beyond that and last I saw he’d spoken on it, he intends to take a break and do at least one other film in between so that’s likely to be a while.
Of course his feelings about making more of the books could always change in the process of making Messiah, but so far it seems like he feels strongly that the second book’s adaptation will finish a complete story and meaning as he sees it and has wanted to tell for decades.
@@RocketSurgn_ Well, I didn't know that. We shall see, I guess. But even so, if pt. 2 is any measure of what's to come, I'm down!
Thank you for making this
Love this video. I feel like part 2 of the movie didn't portray these points heavily enough by the end, or show the dire, isolating consequences of Paul's position, but rather exemplified him as a hero getting revenge and promoting the idea that that which can destroy holds the greatest power in our world (not a good message I think)
I think it was pretty clear when Paul changed the meaning of "Paradise". For Fremen Paradise meant Arakis full of water. When Paul said "send them to Paradise" he twisted the idea. Now it means death
Awesome, video grabbed me immediately well done
A very interesting narrative of the saga. I was extremely fascinated by the perspective put forth in this video.
That was absolutely brilliant and enlightening and thank you so much❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
Right this was deep
This was a great video, I think you really captured the essence of Frank Herbert's message, something which I think many uninitiated viewers of Dune 2 haven't come to grasp yet. Hopefully Denis manages to drive it home in the last movie as artfully as he has in the first two
Hope so, thanks for your kind words!
@@ValaritasYTplease do one on Chani. So many Dunebros think she's the ideal girlfriend in the book and a total b*tch in the new movies. Herbert definitely intended her to be an example of what not to do and the "dangerous to your health" but is played out through Chani over and over in the books. The last line of the first book is not some profound wisdom. It's more BG BS.
Stupid video, superstitious?
Give me a break, they're supernatural for a reason
Excellent tone and pace. Subscribed
Thanks for the sub!
Hey, I'm new to your channel. Just wanted to give my thanks for the amazing video, I love the script and your voice! new fan!!! have a great week ahead!
(personally on Children of Dune at the moment)
Welcome aboard!
I actually didn't think Paul did what he did for revenge but for the good of Chani. Without reading the books I thought it was implied that Pauls narrow path to victory was driven by his love for Chani and thus would be the path which resulted in her safety, even if it meant his destruction (physically but also metaphorically in the sense that he has ceased to be Paul and is now the Lisan Al Gaib (or however that's spelled lol)). However that's a reach I know, either way like others pointed out, Chani basically states what the audience is supposed to see in Paul.
Very interesting.
The is why in the book of revelation it doesn't say the 4 horsemen, but it mentions the 4 horses and the actions of their riders.
BRO I LOVE YOU. YOU UNDERSTOOD THE PHILOSOPHY ❤
Excellent video man good job
they say you should never meet your heroes, and I believe this is true. Thanks for the video!
Author writes book, people see Paul as a hero.
Director makes film, people see Paul as the hero.
New Director makes film, people still see Paul as the hero.
Well gets you thinking maybe
its not the peoples fault but the narratives.
I haven't read the book but by the films Paul has no falsehood in him.
The audience has no reason to read this as a cautionary tale (so far) because he a good leader and even dreads and actively fights against starting the holy war.
From there perspective Paul saw the future and acted out of necessity. He had to do every thing the way he had to in order for the best out come.
That is the danger of the charismatic leader. Everyone believes he's the hero until it's too late.
There is the "story" of Dune and the message of Dune. In film, without a 10 hour monolog, all you're gonna get is the story. The true story of Dune is the message.
@@jimclark2824and this to late is never shown therefore you can’t blame people for seeing him as a hero
@chrishardin9774 it will be shown in the 3rd movie. Part of learning a lesson is experience. I don't blame people for thinking Paul is a hero. The third movie will drive home the lesson. But I believe the message will take a back seat to the "story" and visual effects. Ultimately get lost on people that choose not to read the book.
Incredible recap 👏🏽
Excellent video! I have never been a huge SyFi fan but even from the original movie I absolutely love Dune!
Well done! Great take
Right this was deep
regardless of the author's original intentions, paul is still depicted as a messiah with no other options simply because he was given no other options. the author failed in depicted paul as a warning in his first books which is what warranted the others which still ultimately proved paul to be a necessary evil and a catalyst for charge (although not in his lifetime) for the betterment of the fremen.
The reaction in the comments to your video reminds me of the reception to Dune Messiah. People were invested in Paul through his 'hero's journey' while Herbert had a different messaging which he explored in Messiah - much to the dismay of some fans of the first book.
Great video, great breakdown. Very succinct and well said👏👏👏👏
What song do you use in the background? The track matches the tone of the video well!
Yuri Leontiev - Valley of Light
@@ValaritasYT Thank you, friend!
Your analysis allowed me to understand the character better. Thank you ❤️
Thanks for the analysis. It made me appreciate the movie even more and the writing that gave birth to this masterpiece.
I wonder if those paths he saw where he and his mother lived were still The Golden Path that ensure humanities survival or not, technically that's what The Kwisatz Haderach could see and lead humanity towards, but we also know that Paul is not the one who leads humanity into that path and instead drifts from it, maybe because he was never supposed to be him, maybe just because he held on to his humanity, vengeance and past.
Oh holy algorithm bless this channel
hope so ;))))
@@ValaritasYT keep the quality up and I don’t think it’s even a question that you will succeed.
@@ValaritasYTpaul literally has the power that was prophesied and met the requirements. He was a real messiah until he wasn’t
🗣🗣🗣🗣
This is a sound analysis...if you don't factor prescient vision or later events in the story.
When his precognition was limited Paul didn't want the power or the war.
But once he could see the whole past and future he realized immediately that it was actually the best way forward.
That being said, I'm drawing these conclusions based on the entire 6 book series...as it was originally written.
Villeneuve has already made some fairly significant changes to the story so who knows?
Great video, thank you! What is the background sound in this video?
Thank you! It's Yuri Leontiev - Valley of Light
Super interesting! Very well thought and explained. Now if only the entire population would actually understand this!!!
If he's a fake messiah, it's still a win-win situation for Paul and Fremen
And that’s a crazy fact, if a villain succeeds in what you want…is he really a villain?
@@dchiznit209Yeah.
fr in my eyes paul isnt a villain
@@dchiznit209yes…..
@@LittleMonkey425 name a villain that succeeded
Not all men who seek power seek it to subjugate and destroy, Good men seek power to fight evil. The harkonnens are an example of a malevolent authoritarian force that must be fought with matching power.
Great explanation. Enjoyed it
Right me too
Such a thought provoking video. Thanks a lot. You have my respect.
The real messiah is jon snow , he does not want to be a King
And when he got the chance to leave it all behind. He did.
That was the craziest plot twist I’ve ever heard I thought he was really doing something good until now
Wow... there is so much there to ruminate on. Well portrayed!
True, he kept saying that he is not the Messiah, not the Chosen one, but he changes in the middle of the movie Part 2. I am not sure if he also believes that he is the Lisan Al Gaib or if he is pretending to be. I was surprised to hear that this character is actually an anti-hero, a villain who brings too many death. The plot might change from the book in the next movie.
It seems that Paul's vengeance and Fremen's revenge are holding hands, bringing a terrible, devastating war. This YT video points it well! Really excited to see how Channi will act differently from the book and find her own way, parted away from Paul, fighting for people's liberation in their own way as they used to.
He's now sees the "narrow path", and so embraces the lie.
well i guess it is part of "fate" whether he belives it or not doesnt matter as his son will be the messiah lol
A similar story happened with Daenerys Targaryen. she used all her power to take revenge and gain complete control. But many people didn't get it and were disappointed with the ending of GOT.
No. The ending was just rushed and not executed properly. She did a lot of questionable things, but never once until the final season did she decide to massacre thousands of people who did nothing to her.
To be fair to Paul, he did free the Fremen and Arrakis. YMMV
I wouldn’t say free more like under new management
@@wyvern-reportSure, but that's just a pessimistic view. The harkonnens wanted to kill all the Freman. Paul is the first leader that they actually got to choose. You can blame that on their superstition. But a leader of your own choosing is about as close to freedom as you can get.
@@sirvantanite1307 You would rather be a slave without knowing that you are a slave until it is too late.
@@josebeltransegovia23 Thats not what I said at all, but we are all chained by something. If the only chains I have are my choice of leader then id say that's pretty good. Paul isnt someone who just maliciously took advantage of the Freman, if anything its more the other way around. He simply realized he had no other path and finally gave them what they told them he is. So say thats rather being a slave until it's too late is ridiculous, when it means the opposite. It means you are about as free as you can get. But make no mistake, nobody is ever completely free regardless how much you claim otherwise.
@@sirvantanite1307 You are dancing in your head pal 😔💃🏻💃🏻 There’s always choice in everything we do but if you choose to ignore them it can go as If you wished But remember true leader never fake anything and he will do it properly without any back ups. But as you said you won’t become totally free and claim a different lord do as he said!! Very tricky maybe worse
Awesome vid!
Amazing video!
It is true he endangers all those who follow him but he also is the only reason they were liberated. His tactics and understanding of the Harkkonans led the Fremen to victory. The fight for Arrakis may have been a vengeance quest for Paul but it did indeed help the Fremen reclaim their world.
I think he only truly becomes the “villain” when he chooses to begin the holy war and risk the lives of those who now blindly follow him. He could’ve allowed them to live out their lives on Arrakis now that it’s free from its oppressors but instead he ushers them into a war that isn’t theirs to fight.
but weren't the high chairs/high council (forgot what they were called) threatening to attack them while simultaneously refusing his ascendency? So if he chose not to pursue the Holy war, they would've attacked Arrakis?
@@EliSanchez-qc6ybThe Great Houses of the Landsraad would not accept Paul's ascension to the Throne. With that, peace is no option in the Empire, because Arrakis of course is still the most valuable planet period! The moment Paul decided to make a play for the Throne, the choice lay with the Landsraad and no longer with him.
Sure, now that the Harkonnens are gone, everyone on Arrakis will be free and live in peace and happiness forever after.
Nah, seriously dude???
It wouldn't take a single month before another oppressors come for the spice.
The Fremen would never know peace, especially since after the Atreides, it was them to be eliminated next.
The scene where paul's army is literally riding into battle on fucking death worms is insanely badass.
Most badass insane battle scene 2024.
Harkonnen didn't stand a chance.
Absolute chills.
Great video!
"Whenever people need a hero we shall supply him."
- Albert Pike, 33rd Degree Mason
Great video
It is great that you pointed out the profoundly anti-messianic message of Herbert. You mention charismatic leaders, but I believe this needs to be extended to religious messianic figures. Herbert goes into great detail on how faith and mystical beliefs are such powerful sounding boards, it just can’t be ignored.
Not sure how you felt about part 2 preserving that message.
I personally feel Denis Villeneuve did a great job at presenting the manipulation through faith, and emphasizing how Jessica played an essential part in the construction of a murderous disaster (as a response to another murderous disaster).
Villeneuve avoided the use of the loaded term of Jihad… but still refers to it as what it is: the holy war. The end game of all messianic religions.
He was also trained by mentat :).
Thankyou for this review.
This is deep
You should have explained the importance/role of the water of life. Paul's indecision was eradicated after taking it. His visions were made even more sure after gaining access to every memory of his ancestors.
For what it is worth I saw the movie just yesterday, the first time i had paid to see a movie in a theatre since Nov 2019.
I LOVED IT!! IT WAS EPIC!!
the producers tried to hammer home the warning Herbert gave in his books which I had missed completely back in the day as I said, and in the view of some they over did it
but as I said to the guy who said so on anther channel I was not going to let the interfere with my enjoyment of it.
it was marvelous spectacle, space opera at its best
0:23 when you show homelander I realize that the boys and dune actually telling us a same story... can you make a video about the boys or homelander???
will do ;)
That's far from the only tv show to do this
Paul is Darth Vader right?
How did Paul witness his father's death? or did you mean it figuratively? or is it actually witnessed by paul in the book? TY
Thought this was Fallout 2 for a sec
Me too
This is why the true savior surrendered his right and left his fate in Gods hands. To not become part of this cycle.
who Charles Manson whose crime record is not even close to Jesus's one with many millions killed over time
I enjoyed your edit. At least in this movie version, Harkonnen and the Emperor were the greater evil. Paul did save the Fremen from Harkonnen extermination. And the other houses should have supported Atreides from the Emporor's' overt betrayal. This movie is brilliantly complex with disturbing real life parallels.
great analysis. I read these books starting as a teen. Paul was always walking a fine line to save his mother and self yet revenge his father's death...eventually the goal to take out the emperor trapped him in the role of "GOD"
Chani tried to be the voice of reason and save him.
What many people forget is that he fathers the saviour of humanity. As much of a tyrant Leto ii becomes his ultimate goal is to preserve the future of human beings. Paul rejected that so that Leto had to take it up. I think Herbert’s ultimate message was in the words of Bene Gesserit ‘ Grow up Humans. ‘ I read that as make your own choices. Do trust anything but yourself
One thing I don’t understand is that if Paul is a warning then why did the author write the story to where if they didn’t follow him or his son then humanity would go extinct because they don’t follow the golden path.
Paul didn't have stones to finish the job because of personal *esthetic* reasons. If it wasn't his son he would have left the future of the humanity hanging after he murdered tens of billions of innocents pointlessly. He really don't deserve credit from his son's actions. And even his son's actions are warning. This follows from the horror and inhumanity of the whole situation that could have been avoided if humans wouldn't have gone to the authoritarian way of the the Dune's future humankind. The Dune's message is basically: authoritarianism leads to stagnation and stagnation leads to extinction.
@@SystemLordNemo ya that makes sense.
@@SystemLordNemo so was there a way to acheive the golden path without the holy war? im trying to understand if there was ever an option for Paul to avoid the war.
@@sarasweet3578 From the beginning Paul didn't know about the golden path but he knew about the war. Paul chose the war without knowing that there would be any benefit except his personal revenge being carried out. Many of the Fremen wanted the war first for revenge second to expand their religion and third for wealth/power/glory etc. Once the Fremen discovered how to blackmail the Guild there were no stopping them because even if Paul would try to stop them the Fremen would assassinate him and carry out the war regardless. Only way to stop the Fremen was to make oneself nearly unkillable by fusing with a sand worm. Paul didn't want to do that so he allowed the Fremen to burn across the universe. In the end Paul stepped down and tried warn the humanity of the dangers of their historical path and dangers the upcoming theocratic dark age. Paul's problem was that everybody were so accustomed to autocracy that very racial memory of humans treated autocracy as normal. Paul's son Leto II saw the golden path and decided to go though with it. Paul was horrified and tried to talk Leto II to not to do it but eventually Leto II won Paul to his side. While Paul never dared to become the "god emperor" he became a willing martyr for Leto II's cause.
In short Paul had many opportunities to prevent or stop the war. I believe that unification necessary for the golden path could have carried out by more civil manner. Specially if you are unkillable, omniscient and immortal leader. And I believe Paul had a chance to do that yet he choose not to.
Paul was very willing to sacrifice others but when it came his time to make a sacrifice he lost his nerve. That makes Paul less heroic and more relatable character.
@@sarasweet3578 I believe that unification necessary for golden path could have been carried out more civil manner. Specially if the leader was nearly unkillable, omniscient and immortal. I believe that Paul had a chance to do this but he refused to.
Paul was very willing to sacrifice others but when it was his time to make a sacrifice he lost his nerve.
What "system" are you referring to in 7:27?
' how dare you use the voice on me' - Paul Atreides ; interesting analysis btw, enjoyed watching it, thx!
No. He literally saw the future and saved humanity.
Leto II saved humanity
@@fluthlight7131 There would be no Leto II without Paul.
There would be no Paul without the Bene Gesserit. So can we assume the Bene Gesserit saved humanity?
@@ValaritasYT Yes and no. Only to the extent that someone like Paul was desired so as to benefit from their eugenics breeding program. But no they didn't want Paul himself to be born because Jessica was only to bare daughters in order to resolve the long standing dispute between House Atreides and House Harkonnen. Paul being born was a unintended occurrence which they did not anticipate for at all.
@@ValaritasYTbut can benne gessaits see future like him before drinking the blue water? the blue water gave him clear picture