Dune: The Tleilaxu Mistake
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ธ.ค. 2024
- As we talked about before the Dune saga in large part is about the different potential ways in which humanity can develop and the issues associated with each of those paths. In this video, we will discuss the Bene Tleilax, the deeply religious and extremely Xenophobic group of humans who live on the fringe of the imperium.
The Tleilaxu, more than perhaps any other group in the Dune universe, have a poor reputation throughout the imperium They are known to be deceptive, untrustworthy. Their technology is also a matter of controversy throughout the human empire. The Tleilaxu focused an emphasis on biological technology, that is genetic tinkering of human DNA. The Tleilaxu homeworld was on the fringes of the human empire and they did not allow visitors from off-world to land upon their planet.
The Tleilaxu represent a specific niche in the new set of human evolutionary branches which all begin to bud during the turmoil left in the wake of the Butlerian Jihad.
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Everyone ignore the misspelling of Tleilaxu in the opening!
No worries. On my best day I doubt that I could correctly spell the word from memory. Besides, that's just how we spell it, in our alphabet. You're probably too young to remember Muammar Gaddafi, the leader of Libya from about 1969 to 2011. There was never a consensus on the official, Western, spelling of his name. I suspect that the Tleilaxu suffer from the same problem.
Jawohl!
It says: "Mistake" right underneath, so it's ok :D
could you do or have you done a video to compare the different eugenist strategies in the saga ?
- Bene Gesserit searching for the Kwizats Haderach
- the face dancers and Gholas of the Tleilaxu
- the golden path of Leto the second
what those tell us about how Frank Herbert deal with the stakes of transhumanism or darwinism (i don't know how to moraly juge those different strategies) ?
at least aknowledging that all lead to great cataclysms ! ( the rise of the Atreides to the empire : even Paul says that in book 2 ; the destruction of the tleilaxu by honored matress and the rebellion of some face dancers ;; the rise of the honored matress through the golden path : did leto 2 thought it was a fair price for the final project ?).
my point is can we use those narrations to find the thoughts of Frank Herbert behind ?
Only a Powdinah would use that spelling.. 😂
One large problem in the original books with the Facedancers improved abilities to absorb memories and personality is that many of them forgot they were imposters playing a role and started to believe they were the real, original, person they were impersonating.
cloning with extra steps
It's almost like a copy of a digital file. Once the copy is done there is no real difference between the copy and the original.
Face dancers are the servants of a Tlelaxu master.
So in a way they face the same problem as pre-born. Abominiations.
@paulpaulsr1535 Originally yes this is about an improved version
Something tells me the Facedancers were the inspiration for GRRM's Faceless Men in ASOIAF. Especially when it comes to them acting as spies and assassins taking the appearance of anyone to go undetected.
Wow, that actually makes a lot of sense.
I believe GRRM has confirmed that he was inspired by Dune in both story elements and worldbuildig, which isn't surprising since Dune is to science fiction and science fantasy what LotR is to fantasy.
@@magiv4205 I have never heard him giving any credit to Frank Harbert whatsoever, but please share a link if you have one. The similarities are obvious to me anyway.
If course it's obvious.
Dune has inspired virtually every modern day fantasy/sci-fi, this is common knowledge
"Dune saga is about the different ways humanity can develop", good insight, I never considered this really. If there is any relationship between the future of humanity and quantum physics or thermodynamics, humanity develops in all possible ways simultaneously!
Human development and simulation theory
I always thought of Marty and Daniel as THE most human of all of Dune. You have all these different factions and they either don't breed with other groups, very rarely breed with other groups, or selectively breed with other groups to control the gene pool. Their ability to take on the memories, understanding and personas of everyone allows them to bypass the need to reproduce in order to evolve. They are what would happen if you combined ALL the groups and let it run wild. Take the Bene Gesserit, Bene Tleilaxu, The Fish Speakers, The Honored Matres, The Ixians, The Atreides, The Harkonnens, and so on along with Kwisatz Haderach abilities to see down both male and female lines and you have beings with all the knowledge of nearly every human being (baring those who never passed on their genes), every secret, every master plan, every ability in combat, politics, sexuality, all scientific knowledge, and so on. In my opinion that is what the Face Dancers became. That would explain why the fearsome Honored Matres had to run away in terror from such beings.
The ability to gather thousands of personalities and their memories and utilize them at will is much akin to the results of the Reverend Mothers using the Water of Life to acquire their ancestral personalities and wisdom. I wonder if they would eventually acquire their own Kwisatz Haderach
Reminds me of Hellstrom's Hive. Herbert was a genius at exploring isolated societies across all his work.
The excerpt at 5:00 clearly indicates that Daniel and Marty are descendants of Face Dancers. Brian and Kevin are clearly wrong.
“But muh notes!”
But wasn't they (the old couple) face dancers in Hunters and Sandworms? Or was they machine? It's been a while.
@@Amrah75 in Hunters and Sandworms, they were Omnius and Erasmus.
IDK. I think that's what they were but who knows what they had become. Each race seems to have very different sets of morality. The Tlelexu are nationalists to the extreme. The BG are straight up whiches. Firemen are religious fanatics, etc. Who knows what they saw as right and good?
It's not out of the realm of possibility that what Daniel and Marty are from a former race of face changers that came into contact with the omicron consciousness and chose to become something of it. Advanced cybernetics, bionetics, who knows.
They seem to have powers that make the God Emperor look like a novice, and he rules the galaxy for 4 centuries based on his power alone. These two seem to be able to interdementianally warp space using mathematical formulas that the greatest scientists can't even grasp.
I could see Herbert having a note like that. Doesn't mean he was gonna use it. And it would seem important if you're trying to recreate his work.
I think the way they did it is cheesy, but...
This right here. This is why I refuse to even consider reading the sequels. The very premise upon which they were built upon is false and deliberately contradicts the ending of the final book. That's not a sequel, that's just straight up bad fanfiction--retconning stuff just for the sake of writing. Nope. Sorry. I won't.
The bit with Marty and Daniel not being face dancers seems to directly contradict the text. And the idea of the Bene Geserit freeing some of the Axlotl tank "women" seems to as well. My memory isnt great, but my impression was that the Axlotl tanks were so mutated for the purpose of IVF breeding that they were almost unrecognizable as human females and were both immobile and mentally regressed to the point of being non-thinking biological machines. Essentially animated flesh. So the idea that they would be able to escape that life, let alone harbor anger for the Masters seems very odd to me. It seems like Brian was getting his ideas from looking at fan art of sexy biomechanicals instead of reading the source material.
It's an open secret that there was some bad blood between Brian and Frank. I think its feasible that Brian takes a little joy in ruining Frank's narratives and inserting his own "fan-fiction" rewrites.
I got the same impression. A fresh, new face dancer is merely a tool to be used by a master, and only develops true awareness and independence through an unseen consequence of it's specific function. Why would axolotl tanks be any different?
Sorry to interrupt but isn't Dune the series with so-called 'genetic memory' that is so unrealistic that in the third of the original novels the Baron was able to take over Alia's personality? If that's the case, then why wouldn't 'genetic memory' of being fully human and independent exist in the Axlotl tanks? I mean it's stupid magic and bad writing to have genetic memory work that way but if its going to work that way ("Possession" basically) in this case, then why not? Otherwise, I can only imagine a Reverends Mother or even normal woman finding this secret out and vowing revenge...
@@remo27 You're not the only one to notice the suspicious telepathy-and-fortune-telling-but-totally-realistic-and-thuper-thientific-you-guys-honest powers that some of Frank's characters have. 😉 But again, this is something that has been bred into the Bene Gesserit and Kwizats Haderachs over eons. Introducing fish eater bloodlines into their millenia-long eugenics program might be one thing, but if axolotl tanks are as we've interpreted here, it might be a bit more tricksy.
For one thing, could you introduce axolotl tank genes into a bloodline without Tleilaxu-style genetic manipulation? Can axolotl tanks 'breed' in the usual human fashion, or does it require a lot of esoteric and mechanical Tleilaxu procedures? Would the Bene Gesserit even contemplate using those 'dirty Tleilaxu' methods over their own ingrained 'studbook' ways?
@@remo27 Because Alia has been woken in a unique way , that is only possible for a being like her, while Axolotl tanks have literally been striped away of any humanity and sentient capability to the point of being flesh machines. The idea of a group of rouge or lost Benne Gesserit "rescuing" the Axolotl tanks and reverse engineering back to humans is just too far fetched, I don't see the Benne Geserit going all "sorority" about beings that arent even human anymore.
I feel like the Face Dancers were mismanaged by Herbert. In Messiah, the face dancer Scytale was a very able character with authority over the other conspirators, even the reverend mother never seemed to have any advantage over him. Then in later novels the Face Dancers were "mules", and described more as just flesh golems, zombie like creatures who had no free will and just did what they were told. Though they preformed well in a given role, that was the extent of it, while Scytale worked more like the assassin in The Day Of The Jackal.
In Messiah it appears that the face dancer Scytale became a Master over time.
@@kyblackman Scytale is still around in Chapterhouse, is in fact the last Bene Tleilaxu in existence. He carries inside of him in a null-entropy capsule, the entire genetic inheritance of the Tleilaxu.
Scytale was the first to unlock a Ghola's (clone?) memories from a previous life with Duncan Idaho in the pentultimate scene of Dune Messiah. It was known that they were working on the technique, but Scytale was the first to achieve it via a psychic break. Figures he would become the last Tlielaxu Master alive, which begs the question, Were Tlielaxu Masters face dancers?
@@davidconner-shover51 Same culture same people. Like BG, the difference between the "boss" and the poor girls selling their body and soul for the cause. It does not really matters.
You're on fire lately ! Getting even more hyper for the ultimate guide on chapter house ! your channel is gold
I have never considered Brian Herbert's work as anything other than fan fiction. Unlike some in his father's epic series, he certainly does not have the ability to call upon his ancestors' memories. I would be convinced to take another look if the writing style was consistent, of the same depth and richness, and without unnecessary contradictions.
I’ve recently tried to give Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson’s works another try - they were far worse than I remembered. Not only are the content and the concepts explored simplistic compared to the original Frank Herbert novels and occasionally contradict facts established the original series, the writing style is abysmal. I couldn’t keep reading.
@@dnkeane30 so true...
I think Brian could have done better by his father and his father's fan if he had "given" the notes to several writers and asked them to come up with a finale to his father's work.
The major theme of Dune is that no one entity should hold absolute power. Before the Butlerian Jihad, Thinking Machines held absolute power, that caused humanity to regress. Paul held absolute power and that led to another Jihad. Leto II had absolute power, but decided that he had to make certain that nobody could have that amount of power again.. The Face Dancers were meant to mirror the Thinking Machine. Tools with no morality that had gained the ability to wield an astronomical amount power over humanity. I think the final book would've been about the Face Dancers displaying absolute tyranny over the Empire with their prescience..
My favorite dude coming back with more Dune. Thank you.
I really wish the idea of Daniel and Marty being free facedancers had been more thoroughly explored in whichever cannon. Developing wisdom through multiple personality absorption gives them a similarity, and perhaps parity, with the Bene Geserit and their genetic memories. Wisdom and power derived from the synthesis of many experiences.
Another more subtle problem with Face Dancers was that they became so adept at mimicking the personality of the original person that they began to think and act exactly as the original would have done, so they were no longer under the control of the Tleilaxu masters who made them.
Marty and Daniel as facedancers makes more sense than robots who come out of nowhere.
What do you mean it comes out nowhere? WHAT~ just because they clearly refer to themselves as Facedancers and explain how they got that way doesn't mean they're not Facedancers (which they are)
They didn’t come out of nowhere. They were always there!
The Marty and Daniel are clearly evolved Face Dancers. It fits so well that different groups in Duniverse develop Kwisach Haderach on their own. Paul/Alia, Leto II, Ghola Duncan Idaho, Marty and Daniel. Every one of them have some kind of way to get experiences of other humans be it of their ancestors, of the previous gholas or by touching and taking forms of other humans. And that is so cool idea.
I recall that the Theilaxu tried to create their own Kwisazt Haderach (not a ghola or a clon) during Paul's time and they failed.
Ghola Idaho wasn't a Kwisach Haderach, he had prescient abilities being a mentat which wasn't uncommon. Prescience wasn't uncommon at all in the Dune universe, all a Kwisach Haderach was, was a Bene Gesserit that had access to the genetic memories of both male and female ancestry.
@@nicokrasnow1851 They didn't fail, they made one and it killed itself.
Marty and Daniel are, according to Herbert's son and Anderson, Omnious and Erasmus.
@@JonJubal That’s right.
The derision in your voice when you said, "Brian Herbert" made me laugh out loud. 🤣
I just read your comment at that exact moment. 😂
I find it odd that Marty and Daniel were ret-conned as thinking machines for the Brian Herbert books, given that they explicitly identify themselves as Face Dancers in the quoted passage. All I can think is that BH and Kevin J Anderson wanted to reintroduce the thinking machines as callback to the prequel novels, but couldn't figure out how to fit in both thinking machines and emancipated Face Dancers as antagonists, so they merged them.
Hang on a second; I never read past God Emperor, and folks always made it seem like Daniel and Marty were only *implied* to be rogue Face Dancers, and so the robot reveal is okay, but their quotes in this video practically state it outright! What the hell? "Frank's notes" my ass, Brian.
I think the threat Frank implied was a facedancer machine hybrid empire.
Brian failed at the execution
@@cedriceric9730 there is no hint of machine at all in the original texts IMO. Genetic experiments unbounded by thier creators and capable of absorbing everything about anyone they kill until they have become godlike in thier power. Im not sure why machines would play into that at all. Its far more ominuos WITHOUT machine intelligence IMO.
i literally just finished the last book, which ends with that quote in the video. Knowing that the sequels directly contradict this ending made me certain I will never read nor consider those sequels canon.
Yeah. I was suspicious of Brian from the get-go.
Yeah, The end of Chapterhouse is pretty clear that Marty and Daniel are Face Dancers of some kind. They still respect Bene Tleilax Masters but also consider themselves to have outgrown them, perhaps to the point where they are now the ones in charge. Frank's notes and writings also indicate that Daniel and Marty also represented Frank and his wife, Bev. Frank was saying that his characters (those who escaped the net) were now beyond his control and that their future was a mystery that might never be solved. Franks notes for Dune 7 might have dealt with identifying the greater enemy that had sent the Honored Matres fleeing back into the old empire. The hints are that their methods were very much biological, hence the Honored Matres desperation to gain Bene Gesserit biological control abilities. That alone hints strongly at a tleilaxu link so Face Dancer descendants might be a reasonable guess.
Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson subverted all of that completely - a little like they completely subverted the Butlerian Jihad. Having been entrusted with Frank's notes for the possible 7th novel after Chapterhouse - they churned out 20 books, in other words more than triple the actual novels by Frank. There is no way they used Frank's notes for ONE novel as the source material for 20 books.
Enjoy your insights, new info and background info re the Dune universe. Thanks so much!
I ALSO support the Original Frank Herbert Vision of Face Dancers (versus the Robots) being this simple line of logic
if Face dancer A: acquires a personality, and B: acquires a personality. and they 'swap' then A & B both have acquired two personalities.
And the rest is simply a linear scaling of personalities into a hive mind which would easily rivaled the B.G. Inherited Memories. Which would be MASSIVE FWIW
Great footages and narrative. The voice's tones and pace is great which is not always the case in the many channels that exist on youtube.
I've liked Dune ever since I was a kid growing up in the 80's. This is by far my favorite source of Dune information.
Thank you to Quinn's Ideas. Thank you very much.
I read all the original frank herbert books, but your content brought me so much closer to the source and to really understanding the depth of it all. Thanks!
I remember the revulsion I felt when I first discovered what had happened to the Tleilaxu women and the truth of the axlotl tanks. Even though it's an extreme example of bio - engineering, it's also a cautionary tale about women losing autonomy over their bodies. A subject which resonates today. I love your videos Quinn - you have such a mellifluous voice.
Much as I remember my revulsion when first reading about the Bene Gesserit. Both are, I think, cautionary tales about opposite extremes.
@@CanadianPale revulsion? I cheered when I first learned about them. I want to be trained. Sounds awesome.
@@mapples007 congratulations on missing the point. 😏
Herbert: You're getting a sick sexual thrill out of this, don't you??
Brian: Diggity diggity! Oh yeah!
@@CanadianPale
Ultimate Misogyny 🆚Ultimate Misandry
I guess they “cancel out” in a sense, as Brian concludes their rivalry.
The discrepancy between Chapter House's characterization of the 2 and what I've heard the "sequels" present, is why I haven't been interested in reading the sequels at all... It's like they fundamentally don't understand what's going on, so how could the stories be considered a true continuation? (just like the discrepancy between the machines and the machine's masters, in the machine crusades being changed like it was... just doesn't fit again... a fundamental misunderstanding at the very core of the basis for the stories, and I can't believe that these stories were based off the original author's notes.
They say that it was based off of the original author's notes, but we don't see an actual proof of the "so called notes". Like, seeing the actual copies of it themselves. Some say that this whole "we found the notes thing" could be something that the KJA and BH made up. Also, KJA and BH do admit in some interview that Omnius and Erasmus (from their Butlerian Jihad books) are of their own creation. Not something that the original Dune author created.
Even if the notes existed it's pretty clear that the final book distorted the story to an enormous degree in order to fit in the "prequels"
Honestly speaking having the saga ending with tired trope of the fight against the super evil AI is a total let down
I read one of the sequels, and that was enough to tell me that it's not Dune.
this. there is so much foreshadowing of what they are in heretics and chapterhouse. i don't believe the "outline in a safe deposit box" story one bit.
@@thegoodwin Treat the story of the found notes the same way you’d treat the disclaimer “based on a true story” at the start of a movie. Or the even better cop-out, “Inspired by true events.”
I've always thought the Tleilaxu tanks were a further refinement of the idea Herbert originally posited in "Hellstrom's Hive", with the hive's "stumps"; essentially mindless female torsos kept alive for breeding purposes.
What a great book that was. It left a definite impression with me. The opening chapter gave me X-Files flashback.
Yes, the Tleilaxu have to be compared with hives in societal structure, reproductive control, asexual workers etc.
I am sure what HELLstrom' Hive - is beta version of Bene Tleilax.
@@Unit-3475 Interestingly, the name Hellstrom isn't Herbert's invention. It comes from a pseudo-documentary in the 70's about how insects were destined to rule the world called "The Hellstrom Chronicles". Herbert wrote the book to explore what kind of person would make such a film.
thats how they worked in video game
I’ve loved Dune ever since I saw the movie and read the books, I was about 14 at the time and adore Sci Fi ever since.
Same here!
Taraza didn't knew for sure, nobody knew for sure, until she probed The Tleilaxu Ambassador (forgot his name) and he bought the bait and confirmed her guess with his reaction.
Also, face dancers tidbit about whistling for those who didn't read the books-it was a safety feature imprinted into all of face dancers by their masters, a secret means of controlling face dancers and giving absolute orders to them. New gen face dancers could brake away from the imprinting, making it ineffective. So every time a captured Master would see those two, he'd whistle at them, trying to place them under his control, only to get," really, dude," reaction out of them. At the time of reading it, I've found it hilarious, considering all the seriousness and doom&gloom tone the entire series had.
I viewed Daniel and Marty absorbing personalities as similar to the Bene Gesserit unlocking ancestral memories. They could only unlock female memories while the kwisatz haderach could unlock male and female, but still only those of his ancestors. By the time of Chapterhouse Dune the sisters could share their memories with another sister as they died, somewhat upping the game of catch the ancestral line. Then we have face dancers that can absorb any old personality they come in contact with.
The artwork gathered for this video is magnificent! Also the revelation that the Honored Matres are partially descended from Teilalaxu was pretty staggering. Can't wait forever for your Chapterhouse explications, l'm not getting any younger! However something tells me that they will be well worth the wait, So many densely packed ideas to juggle.
The more I hear about the Brian Herbert's Dune stuff the happier I am that when I first saw it, I noticed KJA's name on the cover and passed on them entirely.
As long as you go in with the mentality that it isn’t Frank Herbert’s Dune and more Star War style fan fiction. Then it’s ok. Since I’ve read a lot of the SW EU; it means I’ve read a lot of KJA. Nu Dune is a lot like that.
Same. Utterly adore Dune, but have never felt the slightest inclination to read anything after Chapterhouse.
@@happydogg312 that's how I feel too. I ache for more... But I don't trust anyone else to tell it. They'd have to be Frank reincarnated to get it right.
@@RobDaCajun Its not even good if you went in with that mentality. You should go in with the idea that this is just a money grab.
@@kyblackman can’t argue that. They started this with a supposed outline and notes written by Frank Herbert. It’s never surfaced and I personally believe it was a sales tactic.
The best science fiction literature channel on TH-cam. I often wish I had the time to renew my interest and love for reading.
Thx Quinn for the breakdowns. I don’t think I’d ever get so much out of reading the Dune series as you had provided..
I love how the font for your title page looks like QuinnSiders when you look quickly. I know it’s Quinn’s Ideas but I’m hoping you chose the font so you make us feel like insider Sci Fi lovers. Thanks for the great content abs make us feel like we’re part of your inner circle.
Peace and keep up the great work my man!
Interesting and insightful as usual.
I agree that Daniel & Marty where very strongly suggested as Face Dancers by Frank Herbert. Sadly, Brian and Kevin obviously felt the need to subvert that to allow them to conclude their own Omnius story arc.
Always a pleasure to hear a deep analysis of Dune from Mos Def himself.
Dammit Quinn I would love a whole series of dune audiobooks read by you. Call Brian Herbert and make that happen, won’t ya? I know you gotta have him on speed dial, right? ;)
I get the feeling we’ll be getting these brief Dune-related vids up until opening day. Can’t wait for October: “Pets of Dune”...🏜🐱
Much love, Quinn
Got my gf into dune. She's almost done the prequel trilogies. Loves it.
Which prequel trilogy? The House trilogy…. Or the further back ones?
Those were so good
@Broken Eyes both prequel are pretty good…. Butlerlian Jihad. But the House/Duke trilogies could easily be a tv show possibly
I’m glad I’m not the only one to enjoy the Brian Herbert/Kevin j Anderson novels ❤️
@@FromRussiaWithLuv007 I agree. It would have been a great TV show or mini-series 10 years ago, but not in 2021 sadly. If they did it now, they'd just WOKE up the story into a steaming pile of race/gender/sexuality swapped identity politics garbage. I'm hoping it's not too bad with DV's Dune. But with a TV series, they'd really muck it up using it as a "platform for their message."
TY -- Your Master Class of the Dune Epoch has given me a much deeper understanding of, and appreciation for the Dune Trilogy and the volumes that followed.
Brotha Quinn! You, my friend I haven’t met yet, are a GEM!
I just finished reading the first DUNE. I’m an old head, dude.
Somehow, I have always avoided DUNE.
Foolish, I know now.
After reading, I came across your channel.
I just binged every fucking video you have on DUNE.
I am an artist.
Hahaha that means I’m broke due to this pandemic.
I will find a way to contribute to your cause, and when I’m financially able, I will hook you up.
You are a needed channel especially with the upcoming Film.
I’m in the Oakland area man. We should collaborate on future projects!
May your next meal be delicious!
Just amazing, Quinn. If you are not awarded a PhD in the literature of the Dune Universe soon, it will be a huge injustice. You have worked harder on this subject matter than many doctoral candidates. 💪🏾
I think part of the Honored Matres' hatred of them was due to Omnius co-opting [and perfecting] the face dancers he encountered. All Bene Tleilax would then be hated by extension, and we know they certainly had a large capacity for hatred.
Very cool video with thorough explanation for those of us who either haven't read the books at all or not read further than the first couple books. While I find Frank Herbert worlds and societies interesting it seems like the same thing is happening with his imagined worlds as it does in Star Trek universe. That is whole civilizations, or planets, are narrowly defined by very narrow perspectives and views on morality.
In Star Trek whenever any given ship (USS Whatever) is meeting a new "people" or a planet they visit one city, that is just a few people who somehow represent the whole civilization. In case of Tleilaxu, Bene Gesserit, Atreides, its always these huge groups of people or in case of Tleilaxu civilizations who seem not to have any disagreement or variety of thought within the confines they are given by the author.
This simplification of groups does not make the books less interesting or somehow defective. But I think it should remind the readers that if this were somehow our reality it could never be as simple, even a book as complex as Dune is much simpler than the real world we live in where our moral views, beliefs, and behaviors aren't universal for everyone on Earth, country, or family even.
Right on man love how you explain in great detail on the inner workings of all theses books and movies and Philosophy
Hi Quinn, that’s a great name by the way, just discovered your channel about a week ago when I was looking for some background on the Dune series before I read the books. Am really enjoying your info and view points, your voice is wonderful to listen to and your visuals are helpful without being distracting. The hats by the way are the best. Subscribed and will be checking out your content regularly as I read through the books. Consider a career in podcasts, audiobooks or independent media, you have the intelligence and especially the voice for it. I’m guessing I will not be your typical fan, an old lady living in Minneapolis, Minnesota, a lifelong lover of sci-fi and hats. Appearances can be deceiving, lol.
Well, the title sure matches the content.
Bless the maker His water.
I guess, never having read the post Frank Herbert _Dune_ stuff, that I never realized there was doubt about Daniel and Marty being FaceDancers. It's been a while since I read Frank's stuff, but I remember the realization hitting me about who they were. I don't think I'd like Brian's stuff if it contradicts what his father wrote.
It seemed pretty fundamental to their role in the story that Chapterhouse was building to. Im upset we will never know what he really intended for the finale.
The 2 sequel books were horrible
@@colinpee the two sequel books were excellent. No, the writing wasn't as good but so what. The plot choices were interesting and exciting.
@@A_Few_Thoughts wrong. Not only was the writing poor, the plot choices were cliche and lame.
@@colinpee Brian Herbert says they based the sequels off of extensive notes that his father had left in a safe deposit box. There would be no reason for him to lie about that. In that regard we would have to consider them canon.
Also, Daniel and Marty are not just facedancers, but the entire expanse of whomever memories they've absorbed, including BG reverend mothers with all their physiological capabilities and genetic memories. By that default, they were also quasi-quisac haderac capable at least.
Hey Quinn, just wanted to say that I love your channel.
Hey Quinn, do you think there is enough material and interest to do a video on the religion that sprang up around Paul after he rose to prominence within the Fremen and after he took power over the imperium?
The Great Jihad really does get overlooked by the time Leto takes center stage
Hell, it’s overlooked between Books 1 and 2. It was always the lost time that interested me.
I never got past "Children of Dune." I get the feeling that the Tleilaxu interpreted the strictures on computers from the Butlerian Jihad by tinkering with what humans are on a genetic level. The rest of the Galactic population mostly tinkered with human potential as we already are.
The goals of the factions were to surpass humanity and create superhumans to dominate the other factions. How they did it was radically different: Ixians: technology and forbidden machine intelligence, Tleilaxu: genetic engineering, Spacing Guild: mutate humans with Spice, and the Bene Gesserit: long-term breeding programs and developing specialized training. The Houses aided the Bene Gesserit by accepting sisters and acolytes as concubines and wives, thus helping the breeding program. The Bene Gesserit women would be highly desirable as they were trained to be elegant and wise and created for their extreme beauty. The Bene Gesserit eventually absorbed the Mentat techniques into their program as the pure Mentat schools were brutally suppressed by the God Emperor.
You should definitely consider picking up again with God Emperor of Dune. It's one of the weirdest and most brilliant books I've ever read, definitely the highlight of the series.
@@LeonWhite indeed, so true...
...for me Dune, Dune Mesiah and Children of Dune are the weakest books. God Emperor , Heretics and Chapterhouse are AMAZING works of art. But then again, I might be wrong. As I may be, I'm of those who like BH and KJA works on Dune. So take it with a grain of salt. Btw, that first drawing of a tleilaxu, who did it? Was just like I imagined them to be! 💕
@@ppowerman5000 I liked the House prequels but the rest of Brian's and Kevin's works on the saga were to me terribly written. Interesting ideas, badly told.
I will say that they were interesting enough that I made it through but I can't reread them, unlike the original saga and the House trilogy.
You have a nice speaking voice, good choice of application. I keep on mixing the Tleilaxu and Jaintech from Neal Asher together in my mind. Frank Herbert was a better writer, but Neal is more entertaining and I suspect his ideas about the future will be more accurate. My subconscious just brought the Shadowrun universe to mind there, minus the magic I think the dystopic scifi theme will be part of the mix. We'll probably have all of it. Divine AI capable of true altruism and compassion and endless peace and psychopaths beyond our current conception.
I was always impressed with the idea for their religion that the study of genetics was reading the writings of God. They're kind of right, assuming whatever forces caused our creation might be described as a God. Aquinas' described God as something capable of moving other things without having first been moved (the unmoved mover) which was given the seal of approval by the Catholic church (unlike that heretic Galileo thinking the Earth wasn't the center of the universe). It's really a lot like human religion mixed with science, it's such wonderful universe building.
You should learn more about the galileo incident. He went against everyone at the time, and was persecuted for that. The church barely had anything to do with it.
Your take on the Dune Universe is really great. Have you done a deep dive on the Dune Encyclopedia? By the way love your books.
I’m almost finished with Heretics of Dune and it’s hard to put down. 🙌🏻
I wish we could bring frank Herbert back to life as a ghola so he could finish writing the dune saga
This was my first thought when I finished the Frank's original 6 lol
@@mooahhdeeb yeah I felt kinda empty when I finished it knowing it was the end of his saga. I've read a few of his sons books they are ok I'm reluctant to finish his version of the series notes or not he's not his father
I'm toying with the idea that Marty and Daniel were possibly some kind of Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach. Perhaps the advanced Facedancers had acquired a similar power to the Bene Gesserit, Paul or Leto II - to access their other memories and inner voices.
What blew my mind in the original Dune series is just how incredibly long in the story that Herbert finally, finally, gives his readers just a glimpse of the reality of "axolotl tanks."
Thank you for your amazing content! I know it's been busy in your next in the woods, the regular updates have been great. Your hard work is appreciated.
I see Daniel and Marty as kinda the Tleilaxu version of a Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother, the ability to take on the personas is not too distant from the Sharing ability the Bene Gesserit display. And the ability to store a repository of such information would not be too different from Other Memory. What more I'm curious about is the realm Daniel and Marty occupy. And if I recall correctly, Duncan was confused by what he saw because in one guise he saw the old man and women tending a garden and in another he sees something behind them (or through them?) something more technological but apparently beyond his ability to comprehend.
hmm...kinda agree
APPRECIATING for the algorithm!
Your channel, its so unbelievably fun.. thank you kind sir, your work is so appreciated.
in my oppinion , the biggest mistake of the Tleilaxu was their belive in the zensunni way, to keep the old way and language. it would have adapted more like the bene gesserit they would have done a lot more. ghole immortality, wisdom from hundrest of lifes, like duncan idaho ghola, etc. Waff was so easiely manipulatete. They are actually a good example of how established rules and beliefs hinder development.
Young man, you are a good analyst.
Well young Quinn, I for one am very glad to hear that you lean on Brian Herbert's work as canon.
If you take in to account the prequels set during the machine empire time it fits with the theme of oppression but with out it does feel like a curve ball. Granted Erasmus is one of my favorite character from those books so to see him again was really cool.
This western society of ours. I really feel that we are becoming more and more nihilist/apathic all the time (though we always try to show the opposite). So I would not be surpriced if we are going towards something like Tielaxu at some point in the future.
We're stuck in melancholia. You're right about showing the opposite - toxic positivity
A future techno-space faring Chinese diaspora I bet. Tleilaxu be allll about hierarchy
@@milesteg8627 My thoughts exactly, a totalitarian regime... not to call them out explicitly because I value my head! How many societies today are similar to this?
There is a long standing divide in western science fiction about genetic engineering of humans. Most classic science fiction places modern day humans in far flung circumstances of advanced science. In reality we will grapple with post-human forms long before any form of space habitation. It is very clear that Herbert was on the side of revulsion at genetic engineering and praise of developing the existing mind.
Your Dune videos continue to be excellent. Have you ever thought about taking a look at 5 Star Stories? It’s basically Manga’s equivalent of Dune.
Bro... Been just jumping back and fourth on you commenting vlog.... you just got a sub. Keep it up. Look forward to see the Dune movie as well... going to see your other series review. Thanks
I wish frank had had the time to finish the 7th and final book.I believe Daniel and Marty would have played an important and much more fleshed out set of characters.
Isn't it amazing what comes from the human imagination? I have experienced so much joy in my life from thoughts that come out of such creative minds.
After the stoneburner incident the Tleilaxu offered to give Paul a pair of artificial eyes to restore his sight but Paul refused since he could see just fine with his mind's eye and he also knew that those artificial eyes can control the mind of it's user due to it's connection to the brain. Something similar to this was also shown in a Star Trek the Next Generation episode where Geordi was abducted by Romulans and his mind was controlled by signals sent to his VISOR which went directly into his brain to turn him into a unwilling assassin.
Having enough information about how sentient beings are interacting with one another allows one to predict behavior of large groups of people. Like Daniel and Marty, who are face dancers, that have absorbed so many lives that they have some sort of social prescience. They are like gods similar to Leto II in that they can also see paths for humanity (unclear if that includes the "golden" path).
Every time I watch Game of Thrones or read ASOIAF it reminds me more and more of Dune;
House Stark= House Atreides
House Bolton= House Harkonnen
Faceless Men= Face dancers
Red priestesses= Bene Gesserit
Dragons= Sandworms
Dothraki= Fremen
Azor Ahai= Mahdi
Maesters= Mentats
Etc, etc.....the influence is totally there.
Wouldn’t house Lannister = House Harkonnen or am I missing something?
@@WonkelDee I picked House Bolton because of all the torture and cruelty they're associated with. Yes, Lannister is a good runner up but I think the Boltons are more evil and comparable to the Harkonnens. Also, the feud between the Boltons and Starks is ancient just like the Harkonnens and Atreides. The Boltons used to wear flayed Starks skins for capes. Pure evil.
@@rmarx1496 Fascinating, thank you. I am only on season 3 ep10 so I probably missed something.
@@WonkelDee You're welcome. We all hated Joffrey but he is like a fairy princess compared to Roose Bolton's bastard, Ramsey. Keep watching and you'll see how evil he really is despite his depravity being watered down in the show. Although the Boltons start off as sworn Stark supporters, their hatred of them is still very much alive and then of course there is that house sigil of theirs with the flayed man. They are actually proud of their cruelty.
Agreed. I made a similar scheme. I would add
Lannister: House Corrino
Tywin: Emperor
Wildlings: Fremen
Dothraki: Sardaukar
Paul Atreides: Jon Snow (similar character journey)
Thufir Hawat: Varys
Piter de Vries: Petyr Litttlefinger Baelish (similar name, coincidence?)
I think Brian Herberts prequels and sequels make good reading!
I always thought they were face dancers... that absorbed the personas of Ominous and Erasmus, and those personas just took over. Just like how some face dancers were fully under the comprehension that they actually were the people they copied. In this way, there is no inconsistancies in this regard.
except machines have no personas so there's that.
The Tleilaxu are a near-perfect subject to use for any and all "Do the Ends justify the Means" arguments.
They don't convert the women into tanks they just hook them up to life support and whatever machines they need for the specific product.
The scattered Bene Gesserit and Fish Speakers apparently brought some of them back to consciousness which is what spawned the Honored Matres as a group.
Most Excellent Quinn,
I would rather speculate about these advanced Face Dancer faction.
How many memories do they posses?
What technologies, wisdom is in their memory?
How far into the past do they remember?
And can they Absorb The God Emperor's Future-Memory.
Frank was going somewhere with this, it was a powerful storyline, that lay forward into far more complex territory than a conflict between Man & Machine.
I liked all the Brian Herbert, and Kevin J. Anderson prequel, and then sequel books to the Dune series, before I watched your very informative videos. After watching those, and re - reading the series ( well, I'm in the middle of the first book, anyway) there are too many contradictions. The continuity isn't right. They'd be very good, and entertaining stories, if they weren't part of this series. The messed up part, is that they seem to get the characters right, but they don't belong in the story they're in. Great video. Thanks.
I feel that the other mistake made by the Tleilaxu was in their understanding of what the Kwisatz Haderach was meant to be, something that they shared with the Bene Gesserit. They both believed that the Kwisatz Haderach was to be humanity's savior, but they thought that it was the destiny of the Kwisatz Haderach was to be revered as the savior of humankind. However, the Kwisatz Haderach was always meant to be the shadow savior as in public and to history, they were to be a tyrant.
Thank you so much. I really enjoy these vids.
Man, how have i missed out on Dune my whole life.
So many great ideias. Respect to Herbert and his successors.
You are awesome. Happy New Year bro!
6:10 how can anyone read this and somehow think that Frank’s “manuscript” had Marty and Daniel being robots
Gosh dang it. Had to pause the video mid way because i am there yet in the book haha nice video :)
Duke Leto’s pug was a Face Dancer.
Can you just give us the video we all really want....CHAIRDOGS?!
Quinn I hit the like button before you remind me. Jeez every time with this guy lol. I'm kidding of course but not about the click. I hit that as soon as I hear the 🎶 DO do DO do DO do 🎶 of your intro
Really enjoy your videos! Thanks!
I have to agree that Marty and Daniel were Face Dancers, there is little in my mind about that; so where did Brian Herbert get the Idea that they were Erasmus and Omnius?????
Even in Brian Herbert's and KJS's early prequel novels I couldn't help but to conclude that they failed to brush up on the events and characters from the original saga. There were many obvious factual inconsistencies. Like the reason why Yueh's wife never bore him any children or Shaddam's attitude towards Leto.
I've always wondered how Frank Herbert's saga would have evolved if he had not died when he did. He makes it pretty obvious that we are to think that 'Marty' and 'Daniel' are advanced and separately evolved Face Dancers from the Scattering. Brian and his co-authors did well with how they finished the saga, making Marty and Daniel alter egos of Erasmus and Omnius respectively, thus bringing the thinking machines back into the story, as they had to be. Nevertheless, I often wonder how it would have gone if Marty and Daniel really had been independant Face Dancers!
I tend to agree that Daniel and Marty are free face dancers. However, their ability to see into the no-ship is very interesting, I wonder if they are Kwisatz Haderach adjacent? Duncan became Kwisatz Haderach-like because of the accumulated lifetimes, I wonder if absorbing enough personalities had the same effect on face dancers?
I always liked the meta-theory that Daniel and Marty were Frank Herbert and wife. That the comment about not being God was a reference to the fact that once you actually put a story out to the public, you start to lose control of the story (example, Idaho was originally supposed to be a throw-away character but fans made Herbert rethink that).
Danial and Marty are Frank Herbert and his wife who had passed as at the making of Chapterhouse Dune, which was revealed in the foreword. Including these characters in the novel was the author's way to commemorate his wife. I believe there was no sci-fi value behind them whatsoever.
You should compile a ‘Complete Guide to Dune’ book.
oh man,i specially cursed the things about the poor duncan idaho`s gholas... they were even more pesky than the bene gesserit in the saga... nice video¡
Another thoroughly enjoyable video on Dune, cheers Quinn,