Update: I have now read the (first) book, finally. Greatly enojoyed it. Aside from the already pointed out errors below, my analysis remains unchanged. As usual, some corrections: - I refer to the "male Bene Gesserit". This is based on information in the Dune Encyclopedia, where they talk about the males of the lineage back on earth lost the ability of the other memory. My mistake here was calling these males "Bene Gesserit" at all, since this history takes place way before that name or the form of the order was etablished much later, at which point it is a female order exclusively. The ancestors of the Bene Gesserit lived back on earth, and those are the people I am referring to in the video. - It also appears that the particular way I describe the Butlerian Jihad as a "machine uprising" comes more so from the writings of Brian Herbert, and that this event might have bee conceived differently in the original novels. - The "water of life" doesn't necessarily appear to be the actual blood of the worms itself.
i bought the book it was a long time coming as i grew up as a kid watching adreides and the first movie the book is a stand alone concept well done but im not keen on book 2 to 6
✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus never denied being God ☪ Muslim Response ➜ Jesus said, why do you call me good ? ” No one is good except God alone ( Luke 18 : 19 ) ✝ The Christians say ➜ We must ask Jesus for help ☪ Muslim Response ➜ But Jesus always asked God for help ✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus has paid the price for our sins ☪ Muslim Response ➜ but the bible says we must repent for our sins ( Colossians 3 : 25 ) ✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus had to die for our sins ☪ Muslim Response ➜ Repentance without a human sacrifice was enough in the past, according to the bible
One correction: The Butlerian Jihad wasn't a machine upraising, that was a far later interpretation by Frank Herbert's son. In the first 6 books it was humans using machines the control other humans; think something like mass Ai surveillance and monitoring to empower a small elite, not Skynet.
Yup, perhaps the most prophetic part of the Dune books, though Herbert was probably drawing on the original Luddites. Curiously, even the Kevin J Anderson books had the Titans, humans who seized control of humanity through use of AIs, before making them irrelevant after Skynet takes over. That House Atreides in the KJA books is descended from one of the Titans who named himself Agamemnon, not the actual Homeric House of Atreus, strikes me as one of the few elements that might actually have been in those mythological notes/outlines Brian Herbert supposedly found. It sounds exactly like the kind of hash of history that canonically has the Imperium think George of House Washington was the first Padishah Emperor.
@@shangrilainxanaduHonestly don’t even look at the Brian Herbert books as someone who has read some of them a lot of things don’t make sense to what Frank Herbert wrote.
The painful irony, of course, is that without those machines, people simply made instruments of each other. It was fairly inspired, tbh. Herbet had some chops before he went all weird in his later years.
A bit of a mistake in your writing there, the Butlerian Jihad itself was the revolution and response to an issue caused by the machines, not the event of the machine issue itself. Now whether it was a machine uprising or humans using AI to opress each other is up to discussions of canon.
You know the movie is about how religion takes people to the extreme and the faith in dune is fake it's made up by the bene gesserits to have power. The fremin believe in bogus
@@quandaliousdingle-r3b Because that's how it was written. Probably by old religious people in WhatsApp groups. Don't ask religious people why they do something.
I think one of the most fascinating things about Dune is how it portrays the future of religion. I feel like we have no problem with extrapolating how technical or scientific things might develop in the future, but it’s less common to explore how religion might develop as time goes on.
Yes! Dune also does that with the future development of the human mind, without machine intelligence dominating. That’s very unique for science fiction.
It's by design because the masses are dumb. It took 30 years for for people to accept Starwars was about religion (Islam). People are discussing religion but most people are lost on the characters instead of being cautious of fanaticism and false Messiahs.
Just a small theory I had that I wanted to share: "Kwisatz Haderach" could come from "Kfitzat haderech" in Hebrew, which translates to the jumping of paths. It might be a reference to Paul's ability to see and select from multiple future paths.
I just wanna say you're pronounciation for the islamic terms are absoloutely spot on and really does them justice. Hearing someone let alone a foreigner nail the "gh" sound in "ghaib" or "Rh" sound in "Ruh" is really amazing.
No the pronunciation of the yearns like Arabic is a harder language to pronounce correctly so him saying it like a native is very difficult and amazing
One thing that the films conveyed very well was the fact that the Lisan al-Ghaib beliefs of the Fremen were implanted by the Bene Gesserit so that they could "tap into" it and manipulate if they were ever in danger. A major theme of the series, especially as it moves past the first book is how Paul and Lady Jessica stoked the fervor and fanaticism of the Fremen for political/revenge purposes, but it then gets massively out-of-hand and they are unable to keep control of it.
The Bene Geseritt manipulated the pre-existing Zensunni beliefs of the Fremen to secure a bolt hole for stranded Bene Geseritt sisters. They didn't do it to control them, so much as give a safe haven to members of their order. The Fremen religion is a direct descendent of Islam in Frank Herbert's world. Moreover, even prior to going to Dune and having access to the Spice, the Fremen ancestors had access to the genetic memories of their Reverend Mothers going all the way back to Earth. The Bene Geseritt manipulated the Mahdist beliefs the Fremen have from Zensunni religion so that they would have pieces that adhered to a Bene Geseritt having a male BG child aka the Kwisatz Haderach. It's important to understand that Fremen religion is not merely an implantation from the Bene Geseritt.
Yeah, Dune is all about "plans within plans", the Fremen were just another Bene Gesserit backup plan, a tool in the toolbox should it be needed. It's made clear in the first book that the modern day Fremen culture is a fusion of several sources: - Their original religion and culture stretching back through deep time - The Missionaria Protectiva (Bene Gesserit) manipulation, some time in the medium past - The influence of Liet-Kynes and his father before him, the planetologists who realized that Dune could be terraformed and taught the Fremen how to do it The messianism was there, but it was the BG who convinced the Fremen that their pre-existing messiah legend would be fulfilled by an offworlder Bene Gesserit and her son. The black-and-grey morality in Dune is fantastic, I thought that was something they really captured in the 2nd movie. Paul and Jessica went down the fatal path prepared for them by the BG, and it couldn't be stopped.
@@QuasarKaraoke2 it was Paul's desire for revenge that caused the Jihad. They could have done as Jessica initially suggested to the Fremen, which was to help them get off world via the smugglers.
@ftlbaby It wasn't Paul's desire for revenge that caused the holy war. It was his following the Golden path. The unification under a single oppressive ruler was needed for human survival in the series to allow for the guided evolution toward humans that can avoid prescient vision, as well as to cause the scattering. Paul's big error was in being unwilling to merge with the sandworm and become the God Emperor, which would have allowed him to minimize the death caused in his name. Thus it fell to his son Leto II to become the God emperor and see the Golden path to fruition. Regardless, Paul did not choose the path out of revenge, but out of love for humanity. He needed to portray it as revenge to the fremen for them to understand and follow through with their role in the Golden Path.
I think Filip underestimates Henry Corbin's influence on Herbert. Corbin was obviously best known for his knowledge and research on Iranian history and religion, and was probably the greatest Iranologist of his day. Most of the "Islamic", "Arab", or "Middle Eastern" concepts, ideas, and elements that Herbert integrated into his work were actually taken from the writings of Corbin on Persia. Most Sunnis today have no idea who "Mahdi" even is, while he has a central role in Shi'ism; Herbert obviously acquainted himself with the concept of Mahdi from Corbin's _En Islam Iranien,_ the section where he discusses and compares the Mahdi in Shi'ism to the savior figure called "Saoshyant" in Zoroastrianism (thus concluding that the "Mahdi" is simply Saoshyant Islamified).
One of Herbert's big inspirations for Dune was Lesley Blanch's (now mostly forgotten) popular history book The Sabres of Paradise, which colorfully recounts the wars of the ghazi Imam Shamil in the Caucasus against the Russian Empire. Once you realize his main source for Fremen culture is the Caucasian Imamate, not the more obvious Bedouins, a lot makes sense.
In the video, it is mentioned that some inspiration for the book comes from North Africa and the Berbers. In NA the Berbers call themselves Amazingh, which translates, if a recall correctly, as Free People.
I've only read a few chapters but Herbert blatantly took a lot from this book. E.g. "May Thy Knife Chip and Shatter" had a parallel saying of "May thy Kindjal (dagger) Rust."
Great video essay, thank you! As a native Arabic speaker, here's a third idea to consider regarding Lissan al-gheib: when i was in grade school in Riyadh, S.A., we had to learn qur'aanic chapters by heart, and the term used for learning something by heart is "7ifiz bil-gheib" . When I first came across the Dune term Lissan al-gheib, that is what stood out for me. Tongue of the Heart
Isn't Lisan = Words, Al-Ghaib = the Unseen ? So the proper transliteration should be the 'Words of the Unseen'. That is what I know from from learning some Arabic words.
@@georgiybukharov2978same sound as 'h' as in henry, but the sound comes from back of the throat. It's written as 7 because thats the shape of the letter in arabic that makes this sound. (haa) ح
As a Muslim, I do not see that the film supports Muslims, or even the writer of the novel, as I believe that it is against Islam and religions, and also against empires. He does not support any party, because what will happen in the third part will be that the new empire will be worse than the previous empire, and also his choice of Islam and not choosing it due to its bad history. With Christianity, therefore, he believes that Islam is more liberal than Christianity. The writer is an atheist and does not praise Islam at all. He believes that religions are myths and a use of politics to liberate occupied peoples or to liberate a religious group to spread its idea. There are many Muslims who do not understand atheistic thought and believe that the film praises Muslims.
"s a Muslim, I do not see that the film supports Muslims, or even the writer of the novel, as I believe that it is against Islam and religions, and also against empires. He does not support any party, because what will happen in the third part will be that the new empire will be worse than the previous empire, and also his choice of Islam and not choosing it due to its bad history. With Christianity, therefore, he believes that Islam is more liberal than Christianity. The writer is an atheist and does not praise Islam at all. He believes that religions are myths and a use of politics to liberate occupied peoples or to liberate a religious group to spread its idea. There are many Muslims who do not understand atheistic thought and believe that the film praises Muslims." Great take! Herbert uses the resilience and fanaticism of Islam, The brutal and efficient practices of older ottoman empire (Fascinating how he could pinpoint how Ottomans were not really islamists), the politics and practices of Kabbalah, Jesuits and Catholics, used to infiltrate power structures and manipulate the system globally/universally, the brutalism of Russian and Scandinavian from the past etc. He is very cognisant of the religions and their primary characteristics. He is also well versed in how Politics and Religion work hand in hand. I enjoyed the books 30 years ago. Well ahead of it's time to recognise how the past and the future creates doom in harmony.
@@timurhant469 Islam is not a fanatical religion. There are certainly fanatical Muslims and there are empires that were fanatical, and even the Prophet Muhammad made a peace document with the polytheists and the Jews, but they did not adhere to it and they wanted to exterminate Muslims and Islam in the Arabian Peninsula, and the Prophet Muhammad was not fanatical. The meaning of my words is that the writer sees that, but I do not. I am convinced by what you say, and every person is free if they believe that Islam is fanatical. But this is not a collective opinion or should be imposed, and are all atheists extremists? Certainly not, despite the presence of people like Hitler and Stalin, who are atheists, and also Oppenheimer, who created a weapon that is not human at all and is also an atheist addition, Paul was not originally an inhabitant of the planet. He only wanted revenge on the Empire and the Houses, and he did not originally believe in the religion of the Freeman people, and Paul was the one who led them to that, not them themselves. Even if Paul was extremist, he was coming from the Houses of the Empire, with the same mentality as the Houses of Extermination and Control over the Planets.
@@Zhm6802 I am an atheist but know word religions quite well. Islam is the fastest growing religion from it's birth an that was through the sword. Judaism and Christianity is super close too. Atheists create wars and weapons NOT in the name of Atheism. Religious wars and religion driven campaigns overweight anything any Atheist ever did. When I used fanaticism, I did not mention war though. I meant devotion and deep belief.
@@timurhant469 It is not true at all, the French used enlightenment as a means to occupy peoples to build their empires, and it was very clear in the occupation of Egypt. Even the Soviets used the same method. Atheism also has an extremist style. Hitler, the French and the Soviets had goals to build an atheistic empire, and this is considered fanaticism, and I did not read the Qur’an in its verses. It indicates attacking the other and forcing him to accept the religion. Also, the verses of the Qur’an were clear that there is no coercion in religion, and Surat Al-Kafirun also laid down pillars for the relationship between the Muslim and the non-Muslim, and its content was not to force the other to accept the religion. Do not confuse the Qur’an with the Muslim, there are big differences.
"Too many houses and Too many names" while knowing all Islamic figures' names; Arabic pronunciation their sects, teachers, and students. Edit: it was a compliment for his passion and dedication to his field of expertise. I never read Dune.
@@LetsTalkReligion You should read the book and make part 2, to this video. There is a lot you are missing. The channel "Book Of James" I believe covers this topic pretty well. Title: "Arabic and Islam in DUNE"
With Paul as Lisan al-Gaib we mustn't forget that he was trained (and mastered) the art of the Voice, which is the 'mystic' ability to influence people's minds and the physical universe by sound waves (which is supposedly also a lost art found in the ancient middle East).
it's basically what "spelling" means, so it kind of relates to Magic, though magic is also from Magi or Mogh, (sages of zoroasterian religion from old persia) and have been known for it (using words and voice to alter reality) even as far as ancient Greece, but it's not exactly middle eastern, because it's a universal aspect of humans and it can be found in any culture and every era, although maybe it had a specific form and use in middle east pre-islamic religious figures, which was adapted and changed but continued to the islamic age,
@@kooshanjazayeri When delving into religious inspiration, the ancient religions of Sumeria, Akkad, and other Mesopotamian civilizations provide valuable insights. These cultures, along with pre-Islamic Arabian religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism etc, as reflected in texts like the Vedas "hinduism", emphasized concepts such as the 'mind,' reminiscent of portrayals in works like Dune, and the notion of the 'voice,' prevalent in pre-Zoroastrian and pre-Abrahamic beliefs. As we independently research and connect these historical dots based on our perceptions, it's important to recognize the subjectivity of our exploration. Our interpretations are not based on the specific religious inspirations chosen by authors for their own lore, but rather on our understanding of these ancient concepts.
Oh, so oppressed. when 1948 Palestine war 7 Arab countries attacked Israel intended to eliminate the Jews. All the Arab-Israel war except for one were all initiated by the Arabs. Including 10/7 attack. Now 20% citizen of Israel are Muslim and they get to go the same university with the Jews, they get to participate politics as well as the Jews. If someone in Gaza declare themselves Gay, they get to go to Israel and get protection there. Mean while, every house in Israel need a "safe room" because rockets constantly bomb them from Gaza and from the North. Where are the Jews in Egypt? Where are the Jews in Yemen? Where are the Jews in Libya? Iraq? There were numerous Jewish settlement across middle East and north Africa after WW2, where have they gone? Reminder, Gaza has another border with Egypt and the Egyptian would take no Gazans in. None of the Arab countries in middle east would take the Gazans in after 10/7.
"In a move so unsurprising there is literally an eons-old galactic prophecy about it, powerful, horny men are unable to peacefully share a planet made of cocaine." August Pollack.
We don't have cocaine in Arabia. The spice is a reference to oil I think. Maybe a mix between oil and Afghan poppies. But to be honest you can't really consider Afghanistan as Middle Eastern. They're east of Iran.
I was literally as I finished the moving thinking "I would adore it if Lets Talk Religion Made an Analysis" and have been binging your videos on Islamic practice since the movies release. I am so excited to watch this video.
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’ Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah: 1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements. 2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa. 3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings. 4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
@@zazawitch Most of those comments completely ignore what Frank Herbert himself has said, and what becomes crystal clear to everyone who bothers to read that novel instead of talking about it or watching those perverted movies. Hint: Dune is inspired by the experiences with stubborn idiots - mostly in rural regions - and their clinging to excerpts of ancient scripture. Dune is not inspired by religions or cultures at all.
The connections between the Bene Gesserit and Catholicism are more aesthetic than their actual beliefs. There's the heavy use of Latin with them - Bene Gesserit means "He has done well," their intelligence network is called the Missionaria and the Panoplia Prophetica. Their leaders are Reverend Mothers, which is a blend of Catholic leadership titles. But the bigger impact on the story is less about the similar beliefs and more the similar functions. Dune is all feudal, and the various noble houses and emperor draw their power from a connection to the Bene Gesserit, just as kings and the aristocracy in Europe drew legitimacy from the Catholic Church, or how figures such as Cardinal Richelieu were intermixed with the function of government. As for why they're all women in that case, another theme in the first six Dune books is Frank Herbert's "ideas" about sexuality, which are less scholarly and more...odd.
Yeah, for a guy who prided himself with anti authoritarianism and resisting imposed social dogmas, Herbert’s wired obsession with strict sex and gender binaries are a real blind spot.
@@archer1949 did you read God Emperor of Dune? He goes on at length describing anti homosexual bigotry as immature and ahistorical, and his reason for the all female fish speaker army is pretty gender progressive, so I have to ask where you got this idea?
I’d just add to this the fact that Frank Herbert was a lapsed Catholic, and grew up in Catholic school with a disdain for the strict nuns that were his teachers. I can’t remember if he revealed this in an interview or what, but I’m pretty sure it’s true. So the Bene Gesserit being reminiscent of nuns, and being despicable, tracks with that.
i really love the effort you made to pronounce the Arabic words as close as it is in the original .. even do it has some difficult litters for you .. yet you still made it .. keep it up the great job brother
On a slightly unrelated note, I saw dune with my dad when it came out and we were discussing how the bene gesserit are morally grey. For context we are both Irish Catholic with experience of the clergy in our schooling. I said the bene gesserit are out for themselves and no other powers. My dad just said 'they are nuns' and I have never agreed with a statement more. They are the nunny - est nuns that ever did nun, in absolutely every way.
I felt more of a Maenad of Dionysus vibe. The changing of the water of life followed by an orgiastic frenzy. Check out Brian Muraresku’ s book “ THE IMMORTALITY KEY- The Religion with no name”.
...no. No they aren't. There is certainly a surface level similarity, as women wearing religious garbs, but that's about it. The Bene Gesserit are a group that has a great deal of secret hidden power, while ostensibly being subservient to the Emperor. That is not the case irl, where nuns are meant to be humble and have little power. Hell, the Bene Gesserit regularly engage in sex for the purposes of their saving certain useful bloodlines and genetics. Nuns certainly don't do that.
I was blessed to meet with Frank Herbert his wife and mother on several occasions in 1975. Frank had been a war correspondent during his life, which took him to many places around the globe. He often wrote articles for The Seattle Times. He was a remarkable man. His personality is reflected in many of the Dune characters, including his gift of music. He lived an exemplary life and spoke truth even when it was not the popular thing to do. I wish for him and his family the highest of places in Janah (paradise)
Your knowledge of Islam is amazing! I really appreciate you outlining and mentioning things like the Nafs and Ruh, I especially liked how you caught yourself when talking about that topic and mentioned that these concepts are important in all of Islam not just Sufism. Good stuff! The terms used in the Dune series are really interesting. Ghaib can also mean the "Veil" and it can also refer to the Occultation you mentioned regarding the Mahdi in Shia Twelver Islam. Thanks again for this video. Was very entertaining to watch.
Here's another term , arrakis came from the arabic word الراقص , which mean the dancer and that describes the man who walks in front of camles as a leader and he avoids dunes in desert so he is kind of a dancer ,which describes the freman famous walk to avoid the warms, and arab astronomers gave this name to bunch of stars that it's light appear to be dancing when watching at night.
The Fremen and much of the basic plot of Dune is based on a history of the mid 19th century struggle between the Russian Empire and Shamyl, the messianic and mystical Sheik of the Caucacus: Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. The book is Lesley Blanch’s “The Sabres of Paradise.” My university library has a copy, but there are usually some for sale online. As you read it, along with Dune, you will see what inspired Frank Herbert. :-)
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 You don’t seem to be familiar with Herbert’s comments on his research for Dune. Do some reading. Then you can contribute to the discussion.
@@lynnmaners9165 Frank Herbert never said that those things inspired him PERIOD! He explained the intentions behind Dune as a warning against all sorts of prophets. Your arrogant drivel is just that: drivel.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 You are wrong. Sorry you can’t do your own research. You may notice that you are the only commenter who doesn’t understand that Herbert used the Caucasian revolt against the Russian Empire as a model for the Fremen. Read Blanch’s book, then comment, and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, we can’t.
@@lynnmaners9165 There is nothing to understand except that you are completely mistaken, and there is no basis for your claims. You are following an attempt at approbiation of Frank Herbert's works. That's all.
The Bene Geserit order is not catholicism in the belief system, but in the way they have their own agenda in the evangelizing process. They made alliance with the main power, spreading believes that make it easier to colonize other cultures and to control the population. Catholicism wasn't the only religion to do that, but it was a major force in the Spanish Empire expansion
How to say that you know nothing about Catholicism without saying it. The core idea of the Bene Gesserit narrative is that they do not share their beliefs with the public, but create many other opposing belief systems to control. This is just the opposite of what Catholic Church has always done, and why has been criticized over: Keeping a strict unity over beliefs.
Fremen could be referring to "Free Men", a term used by Herbert on a previous Dune outline titled Spice Planet, "Free Men" is also the literal translation of imazighen, how Amazighs people, the indigenous inhabitants of the North African littoral and Sahara desert, call themselves.
12:16 I love this painting of Jesus. I've never seen that before. Another note.. We have been denied knowledge of all these Islamic thinkers, in our western education. One has to seek this out for themselves, then find out how much they've contributed to all of the world knowledge.
It's a solid metaphor for our time; the West gives the Arabic people the weapons to secure their independence, the Arabic people gain power, the West returns to prevent this rise to power
Yep - in the Dune universe, melange is what makes everything moves: - it allows the Navigator's Guild to plot FTL travels in their heighliners; - it allows the Bene Gesserit the ability to access their genetic memory; - it extends the period of human life;
Paul background is more related to the Shia Mahdi story. Born of a concubine . Son/descendant of a martyred leader who fought an evil dynasty. Regardless the movie is great in showing the journey of self doubt and exploring the themes of faith and destiny.
As a Shia muslim, whil watching I couldn't help but continue thinking of the parallels between Dune and Shi'a Theology. Super interesting way to be faced with my religion lol.
@@AmericanImperium2112 Sorta it was more that the Emperor was an envious and jealous man the Sardaukar the Emperor’s guard are the best warriors in the universe, but whispers were being had that with Leto’s training the Atreides guards were better and whispers kept being had how Leto was a great warrior and great at training and how he was a great leader and fighter. So Shaddam got jealous feeling he didn’t have the greatest warriors and he felt threatened his house has ruled for 10,000 years but he felt Leto might try to overthrow him and if Leto tried he would have support. In reality though Leto never wanted to overthrow him he was loyal the Emperor murdered him in cold bold over jealousy and feeling threatened Leto might do something.
Something not mentioned: Herbert's term "Kwizats Haderach" is probably derived from the Hebrew phrase קפיצת הדרך kfitzat haderech, "the shortening of the way", a concept from Judaism but especially Kabbalah referring to someone whose body or mind can be in multiple places at once, or who can miraculously travel far distances.
In Sufi traditions has, “tayyi mekan”(elimination of place/matter: Be in multiple place at ones) and “basti zaman "(elimination of time: experience very long time/years/decades in very short period/minutes/hours)”. Interesting! Why Herbert use Hebrew phrase instead of Arabic one, like other phrases…
@@scratneednutsia1923 I think a reason for the difference is that the "Kwisatz Haderach" and the "Lisan al-Ghaib" are (technically) different things. The "Kwisatz Haderach" is the final product of the Bene Dessert breeding program, the male able to access both male and female memories. That means the "Kwisatz Haderach" isn't part of the Fremens' Islamic religious heritage. When Paul starts to lean into the "Lisan al-Ghaib" prophecies, the reason he's actually successful is because he really IS the "Kwisatz Haderach" and brings those superhuman abilities into everything he does. The Bene Gesserit wanted to control the "Kwisatz Haderach" but they never anticipated that he would use his abilities to weaponize another culture's religious fanaticism against them.
@@runcmd1419 Within the lore of Dune, Jews still exist and are the only Old Earth religion to have survived more or less intact. The Bene Gesserit have copied some aspects of Jewish mysticism, which variously annoys and amuses the actual Jews of the Dune universe.
I read and reread most of the books in the combined Dune universe and I always pickup something new when I do. I am thankful that you finally finished Dune and corrected your presentation. I heartily recommend you read the background books for a better understanding and foundation foa the world of Dune. I had always been fascinated with the Fremen and their culture. This fascination led me to study Islam as an influence to Frank Herbert's writing. I am happy to say I found peace and purpose in Islam that I took my Shahada and now am a faithful Muslimah. ALHUMDULLILAH!🤲
I think the reason why they claim there are Catholic roots to the Bene Gesserit (think I spelled that right), is because “Gesserit” sounds like “Jesuit”, which is an order within the Catholic Church. Apart from that, that’s all I can think of
I knew nothing about Dune and used to have no interest in it, til I watched the new version a few years ago and was immediately intrigued by the deep embedding of various religious symbology. I 💯% agree in the Bene Gesserit representation being from Catholicism... Like you I think Jesuit but also about what their true 'underground' role (in the world) is believed to be/been. And for some reason when I heard mention here that there was a dual memory (in the male and female lines) it made me dwell on the symbology used by Jesuit (historically and can be seen in the present here and there) of the two horseman riding one horse. (I get that this line of thought likely makes no sense to anyone else, LOL) but like two lines of consciousness separate but then combined (riding one horse)
@@Chocol8Mamma That is not Jesuit symbology, though. The two riders on one horse is usually associated with the Knights Templar who occasionally used this imagery. That was more than 200 years before the Jesuits were even founded.
As a middle eastern person I can tell you most distinctions in dune and Arabs and Islam Fremen: inspired by bedouins in Yemen and United Arab Emirates and Fremen rhymes with Yemen (Lisan al gaib) (لسان الغايب) pronounced forcefully lisan al GH’ah’yeb or ghaib meaning the tongue of the hidden, in the story could mean hidden goods or the hidden secret to power or spice who knows Al mahdi: an imam (Mohamed al mahdi) more prevalent in shia Islam Muahdib: مأدب which means the person who puts things in order and gets people to behave In general and a final distinction these Arabic words are actually
I know Dune is a very heavy book series, I found that the audio books helped me get through the series, read the books or listen to the audiobooks they are great and make you really think.
I went to a catholic primary school, run by Sisters of Mercy, and the Bene Geserit women definitely brought my memories of those nuns to mind - their countenance more so than their ideals/beliefs.
I am watching your video for the first time! Thank you for such an elaborate and eloquent explanation of the Dune books/series. I will definitely watch and ponder. Also, your pronunciation of the Arabic words are spot on, this was amazing.
Just to clarify about the Reverend Mothers and the Bene Gesserit and the ancestral memory. It's not just former Bene Gesserit they can access the memories of, it's every female genetic ancestor going back to prehistory on Earth, not just those that happened to also be Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mothers. Love your videos! thank you for all your work
By the way, the 12 imams in Shee’a islam were actual historical figures which really lived. Whether the 12th is “the” Mahdi or not is the debate. But all of them have lived, their writings and books exist, they are well documented, they taught many students, etc. so that part is not mystical, it is actual historical truth. Their lives are fully documented, where they lived, what they did, where and how they died etc.
yeah and they also all died which throws the theory that Al-Mahdi is a the 12th imam out the window unless you convince yourself that the 12th Imam have been alive for the past 1151 years, just hiding and waiting when Muhammad ibn Hasan the 12th Imam died (like we all do), they stated this thing about him going into hiding first communicating then disappearing all together and no one knows where he is cause otherwise their entire version of islam falls apart without the 12 imams theology at least that's how i see it from what i know and studied
@@laker_fanatic3985Yeah thats illogical from any layman perspective because on one hand shia say that imam leads the muslim group by teaching them the true teaching of that era and on the other hand their last imam (mehdi) had not appeared and is hiding fir 10 centuries so thats a total flaw in the shia imams concept and those who follow it! Also when shia say that they have 12 imams (twelvers) but they donot know that in their own books the son of ali other than hasan and hussain (R.A) which is abu hanfia had also claimed to be imam and if you ignore it for a moment you come down to hussain descendents i.e zain ul abdin and then baqir then jafer then his two sons both claimed to be imam i.e musa kazim and Ismail, so they their own issue of who is the real imam and then they tell us that their imam are this nad that but they donot see that their imams are disputed
@@laker_fanatic3985 I don't see anything illogical if you are a Muslim. If Nuh AS can live for over 950 years, if the seven men in the cave can stay asleep for over 300 years, surely Allah Almighty can do something similar for Imam Mahdi AS.
@@laker_fanatic3985"I arbitrarily declare that this part of the religion doesn't make sense scientifically while excusing the parts I believe in. why? because I believe in them"
Fascinating, and I am very glad you covered this. Thank you. To get the whole picture of Paul Atreides, you really need to read the next book of the original trilogy, Dune Messiah. It is short, and it completes one of Herbert's primary points, the dangers of Messianic belief and culture. The third book, Children of Dune, begins to broaden the Dune universe, primarily concerned with the lives of Paul's children. The first book after the trilogy, God Emperor of Dune, in my mind complements the "trilogy" to an entire fullness. (Paul is not the God Emperor, however.) IMO, Frank Herbert's final two books lose a lot of the detailed philosophical/religious aspects, and are more traditional space opera. Still great reading, though. Many folks consider the extra books co-written by Frank's son as lesser works and not really part of Frank's vision. You asked why some people see an element of Catholicism in the Bene Gesseriit. For me, it is a female order, similar to nuns, referring to themselves as mothers whether they are or not. I think you expanded the concept further in describing the Orange Catholic Bible, mentioning that one of its basis was a Hindu-Catholic mixture (along with Islamic-Zen, and some other Catholic combo you mentioned that I forgot).
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’ Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah: 1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements. 2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa. 3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings. 4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
It's admirable how you organize and present your thoughts on these topics 👍🏽 The science fiction Pitch Black has this futuristic neo Islamic backdrop where, when they are on another planet they would stand in a circle instead of a line and they would point their prayers upward instead of eastward. Exploring these ideas, remind us that belief systems are not simply non-physical they are metaphysical and just as susceptible to the unstoppable nature of change as anything of actual physical substance.
I would have liked to hear more about 'Zen' part in the Zensunni religion in Dune. I have also read that Frank Herbert was very interested in Zen, and was friends with and learned a lot from Alan Watts, but I don't really seen Zen coming through much in the book or the movie. Can someone explain what I'm missing?
Bro, you should read the book. I was a Subud child, so of course mom recommended DUNE. I read the first book only, four times so far, and studied the appendices. There are some who think that DUNE is the best ever Sci-Fi novel, but I wouldn't state that. A lot of Subud people was fascinated with DUNE.
Ill be honest, i wanted to learn about it too, and I did. After learning about hinduism and buddism, about christianity and judaism. So, my advice - skip islam, go to judaism because its the base for both christianity and islam. Islam just says that everything else is wrong outright while stealing all the ideas from the old and new testament.
@@abujabr there is ample knowledge elsewhere Too many bigoted and racist radical ideas are mixed in to Islam Again, ALL that "truthful knowledge" already came in the form of the old and new testament, Talmud, Vedas, Greek philosophy etc
@@abujabr there's ample knowledge elsewhere Too much radicality integrated into Islamic ideas Again, all that "truthful knowledge" came beforehand in the form of the old and new testament, the vedas, Greek philosophy etc Remember, it is your duty as a Muslim to convert polytheistic beliefs right? And you can lie and even must lie in order to achieve that holy goal, right? And if he doesn't, you MUST exterminate Right?! 👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼
Great video! I saw a man on the metro a few weeks ago and he looked extremely familiar and couldn’t pinpoint why. Now I’m pretty sure it was you who I saw!
קפיצת הדרך or kfitzat haderech Is a kabbalistic term that talks about the ability to reach distant places in an instant. It literally means jumping the path in hebrew.
Interesting as a similar Sufi concept exists of some saints being able to transport vast distances by taking one step as a form of Karamah (miracle for saints). Also interesting that the Hebrew words kfitzat is similar to Arabic qifzat or kifzat قفزة which means jump
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727well all humans are indigenous to Earth, the only thing I think indigenous to Arrakis is the Sandworms but they could’ve been a genetically engineered worm for all that matters.
Muslim myself here, have to point out that a lot of things characterized as 'islamic' in this movie are outright shia culture and has nothing to do with mainstream sunni islam. Most sunni muslims do not believe in the same eschatology as shias and the mahdi is a big point of dispute
Sunnis do believe in a Mahdi, but his role in day to day religious dialogue and worship amongst Sunnis is much more understated compared to Shias. It’s like night and day. The Mahdi (at least amongst Twelvers) is definitely a focal point of the religion, and in this sense, Dune (both the movies and books) is definitely more akin to Shia eschatology.
So glad that Hollywood painted Islam in a much more deeper sense, which holds true for it. We were sick of the misrepresentation, and complete disregard for the Abrahamic Scriptures and the blatant Islamophobia. Dune gave a wider perspective on Islam and religion, and we’re here to witness it. It’s amazing.
Thanks for providing a thorough descriptions on arabic terms used in this universe. Made me realize how much words in my language (kazakh) originated from arabiс
I am surprised you didn't bring up the Jewish origin of the name "Kwizatz Hadarach", as it is Herbert's mispronunciation of the Hebrew "Kfitzat Haderech", which IRL is used for the Jewish idea that some prophets, rabbis and sages could teleport, but Herbert seems to be using it by taking its literal meaning- "the jumping of the path" or "quickening of the way" to show that the Bene Geserit see the creation of the Kwizatz Hadarach as a quick means to their ultimate goals at large.
This guys is very smart and has done his research on Islam as he has drawn the parallels on Islam in general in particular Shia, Sufism and the Ruh...impressed
I recently learned that stories of Jesus and Mary are also told in Islam. I grew up Christian and am unfamiliar with the traditions of Islam. It would be very interesting to hear a scholarly presentation about this. I am curious to learn about the differences between Christianity and Islam in the stories about these figures, differences in how they are worshipped or revered, and how did both communities arrive at different histories for these two important religious figures. Does the Islamic view of Mary and Jesus predate Islam? How far back did this divergence occur? I don’t even know how to begin answering these questions on my own and believe this channel or Religion for Breakfast could knock it out of the park. In media, pop culture, and even in some churches it is often implied that these two religions are incongruous and that either one or the other will celebrate victory, yuk, but I feel a unity is the only way we are going to get to where we need to go and that will come through knowledge of what we share. Perhaps you can recommend a sources that address these questions… I love your channel and enjoy your music! Thank You!!! ,
As a Muslim and someone who enjoys sci-fi movies, especially in this genre and theme, I really liked both parts of Dune. The graphics, actors, decorations, and the mysterious conspiracies are impressive. However, I feel like they tried to incorporate some aspects of Muslim theologies and prophecies, which seemed favorable to us but also carried a lot of messages. For example, Muslims praying to the Mahdi or the Mahdi ultimately becoming someone who wants to rule the world like many others, or even becoming another evil character. Yes, the main character is portrayed as a savior Mahdi with many positive attributes, but at the same time, they seem to suggest that the person many Muslims are waiting for to bring justice to the world is actually a liar who speaks beautiful words and appears brave, but in the end, uses people for their own desires.
Well there is a false messiah no? Also this is like 40k years in the future there are so many sects at this point I would argue Zen-shiaism isn't even Islam
As an amazigh muslim that comes from a mountain tribe in the south of Morocco, I enjoyed your analysis and I felt very connected to this lore, and I feel like Fremen comes From the meaning of Amazigh which is "Free man".
Amazigh is a 70s term, made by the French, their name is Berber and even tho they are called Native to North Africa, genomic have showed the otherwise as their genome is 99% Eurasian wish explain their none African phenotype
@@daaaxo8583souce about this "99%" Eurasien ? I am from North Africa and never heard of this. From what I know they are from a combination of origins. There is Amazigh that lived here in North Africa forever (many archaeological findings ). And than you get the Phenicians, Romans, Vandals who came here throught history. They got assimilated with the berbers already living here More recently there is also Arabs and Ottomans. And many berbers got arabised (began speaking Arabic )after the coming of Islam The berber language itself is semetic so they should be closer to other Middle Eastern semitic people.
@@daaaxo8583 "Amazigh" is a term that means "Free", which north african native people used to describ themselves (white people) as opposed to slaves (non white people), however, Amazighs never called themselves "Berber", berber means "foreigner", and it was used by greeks, so saying that "Amazigh" came with the french occupation is simply laughable.
Dune is about the dangers of blindly following and believing in these messiahs and prophets. Herberts work is very critical of religion in general. He does talk about what the ideal version of religion could be but he showed that in his work this wasnt the case. Pauls prophecies and the fremen belief is manufactured and not real. The belief in paul by the fremen will lead to a devastating jihad that will kill 61 billion people. Herbert is critiquing islam with the overall message of paul.
@@quixotiq yes i did mention all religion. But the fremen are influenced by islamic language which leads to videos like these thinking that dune is praising the ideology. It is a video about dune and islam after all.
@2:51 probably the biggest problem with Dune and also one of it's greatest assets. The story is painfully slow and while some worlds "immerse" you, Dune dunks you head first in the deep end of the pool. Once you get used to it the effect is very cool; it's written as though you've been living in this universe for a few decades, therefore we can namedrop all kinds of stuff your familiar with. Extremely jarring but if you can hang in there you get to see how deep the world building gets and how everything from politics to commerce to religion interact.
my dad is a muslim and a pretty devout one, a bit too conservative and traditionalist too, the type that would callout bid'ah (very iconoclastic) and any of those reform stuff, I can see him visibly uncomfortable and anxious when the freemen starts screaming "HE'S THE MAHDI" because I think in his worldview those stuffs matters a lot
All Muslims should call out on bid’ah. As doing so we preserve the religion and teachings of enjoining good and forbidding evil. Turning a blind eye to bid’ah leads to inner destruction of Islam and the misguidance of other Muslims. There are many ahadith (narrations) of the prophet ﷺ about bid’ah and going against it.
@@Darkcamera45 it’s innovation or heresy in the religion. Ascribing something unoriginal to the religion which wasn’t present during the time of the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and/or his companions. The prophet sternly warned against all kinds of heresy and innovation within the religion and discouraged such acts of heresy.
i think he was uncomfortable and anxious because he knows he is not the Mehdi . there's many signs that says that .. and the writer try's making it look like that its religions fault when clearly not .. its a human thing .. people go after people even if they are not promised many years ago ... but they make promises for the future and that's why we see horrible people with the most votes in the election people thinking he/she is their savior ..
I believe the reason why people think the Bene Gesserit are based on Catholicism is due to the name. Frank Herbert pronounced Gesserit almost identically to Jesuit. He was raised as a Jesuit, so he had firsthand experience. "Bene" comes from the Latin "good," thus they aren't merely Jesuits, but "Good" Jesuits. The other possibility is the Latin phrase "bene gesserit" meaning something like "good behavior." I can see the Sisterhood manipulating the word Jesuit into "Gesserit" to make people think they are benign, while in the shadows they scheme. They dress in similar long black robes, with Reverend Mothers often wearing an "aba hood." There's also their titles: the Sisterhood, Reverend Mother, Mother Superior, etc. Their "Chapterhouse" comes from a building attached to a Catholic cathedral. There are plenty of differences from Catholicism: they obviously aren't celibate but instead personally ensure bloodlines continue, their members are distinctly NOT religious despite playing up a missionary role for all religions, and whereas nuns are controlled by men, Frank Herbert specifically wanted the Bene Gesserit is be an independent and powerful all-female group. They represent everything he hated about Catholicism and organized religion in general: manipulating whole nations, pulling strings to wage the wars they want, being instrumental in massacres and genocides, using faith as a form of mind control and enslavement. His bad experience with the Jesuits led to Herbert converting to Zen Buddhism, similar to how Lady Jessica and Paul break from the Bene Gesserit's path and join the Zensunni Fremen.
I was raised deeply indoctrinated with shia religion and when I went to see this movoe in theaters I felt like I was watching the stories of my childhood on screen. The phrases, the challanges even the twists especially one in regrds to the blood line of mahdi and his mother are stuff I knew since childhood. I used to recite the names of imams, write letters to mehdi and even pray for his health and guidance. Watching this movie was quite an unreal experience to me.
The Spice, as used by the Bene Geneseret, is used as a DNA genetic and consciousness/sentience enhancement. This allows these awakened/illuminated females to go back into their genetic (astral Akashic) records of their ancestral lineage spice-enlightened female consciousnesses/sentience - as a real sentient-to-sentient encounter. Somewhat considered god-consciousness or cosmic-consciousness, better said as -sentience. Not directly mentioned, but these theosis-evolved (or overdosed spice use can have) Mahdi-like Dune prophets with their own same multi-generational sentiences, that can overwhelm them, or also have such personal encounters, as much as we would say being possessed, demonaics, multiple personalities. Such would be the Harkonnen possessed (or demonaic) spirits driving them to such continual dark intentions (power madness, financial lust, ...).
Im a Mslim, I watched Dune 2 few days ago and I shocked when they says Mahdi and lisan al ghaib.. How they show the Mahdi is almost equal to Islam version of Mahdi. Maybe the producer learn about the Mahdi and he find it interesting to put it in Novel as Dune version of Mahdi. Anyway the story is great and I love the movie
The author learned about Islam and started writing and he himself said it is based on the Middle East and Islam, as for Edward here he is edgy white man who knows Islam is against his people
From what I recall (I read only the first book many years ago), there are not a lot of direct allusions to Judaism or Jewish culture in Dune (although many Arabic terms have Hebrew cognates, like ruh/ruah). But the term "Kwisatz Haderach" seems to be plucked from Kabbalistic or Hasidic tradition. In Hebrew the term is Kefitzat HaDerekh and means "jumping the path." Certain spiritual masters were said to be able to instantly transport themselves to a far-distant place. I suppose you could call it a "quantum leap."
Thanks again for such an accessible, informative and thoughtful perspective on an interpretation of the expression of spiritualism. ie: our experience of meaning.
Frank Herbert of Dune legend, like George Lucas of Star Wars legend, used all of the many Joseph Campbell mythology and legend topics into a massively-intense written tapestry of a million years of human existence. Such would be comparable to Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey, King Arthur, Bhagavad Gita, etc. Herbert is very difficult to start and read, if one doesn't have this basic knowledge, as it literally mind-alters one's concepts in understanding this whole world of existence, based on so many different modes of thoughts and concepts. But one, like me, having read all of his (and his son's) Dune books, once mind-warped, you never want to stop reading all of the many Mater's level of intricately written plots, twists, counter-plots, conspiracies, ... that make Agatha Christie's or John Le Carre's books look like Bachelor and High School written levels.
15:33 the short story behind the OCB is as fascinating as it is (to me at least) comedic. Idk if every publishing has the story in the back of the book like mine but its a good read either before or after as it helps give a layer of liveliness to the Universe of Dune.
You mentioned all religions change over time, I would disagree, well, maybe 90% right. Islam has never changed and has stayed true to its principles, and will remain so. The beauty of it is that is has become more accessible. But yeah, Dune was awesome! Felt authentic, even though it just fantasy.
One of the quirky religious details in the later books of the Dune series was that unlike every other religion, Judaism has persisted in a quite orthodox manner (and become rather secretive as a survival strategy).
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’ Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah: 1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements. 2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa. 3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings. 4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
Most Muslims have low IQ due to inbreeding from polyamory. There is not one Muslim I have spoken to that has any logical reasoning. Most of them cannot follow logic and make many fallacy mistakes.
Small critique on the example of Jesus as a innovative messiah. Jesus didn’t innovate, he didn’t challenge the authority of the Pharisees, or even the traditions, Jesus himself was a theological traditionalist/conservative. He challenged elevating the oral law as being equal with the true law the written scriptures, he also condemned the Pharisees (some of them) for their hypocrisy. Jesus even often quotes the Torah. As he said he didn’t come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, or bring it to its intended completion.
@@adamnesico Well that why I pointed out that Jesus is a theological conservative, meaning he held to the original teaching and interpretation. The mosaic law never gave a literal command to stone anyone for committing adultery, this was never the intended interpretation. Rather the mosaic law gave general idealized principles for local communities to live by, the local judge or judges would determine how affairs are to be handled. A good example of this is King David, and Hosea, in neither case was stoning for extra marital affairs even considered. And frankly this attitude is nothing unique to Torah you see it all over the place in near eastern civil law codes they all work on principle and aren’t to be taken hyper literal in everything they mention.
Update: I have now read the (first) book, finally. Greatly enojoyed it. Aside from the already pointed out errors below, my analysis remains unchanged.
As usual, some corrections:
- I refer to the "male Bene Gesserit". This is based on information in the Dune Encyclopedia, where they talk about the males of the lineage back on earth lost the ability of the other memory. My mistake here was calling these males "Bene Gesserit" at all, since this history takes place way before that name or the form of the order was etablished much later, at which point it is a female order exclusively. The ancestors of the Bene Gesserit lived back on earth, and those are the people I am referring to in the video.
- It also appears that the particular way I describe the Butlerian Jihad as a "machine uprising" comes more so from the writings of Brian Herbert, and that this event might have bee conceived differently in the original novels.
- The "water of life" doesn't necessarily appear to be the actual blood of the worms itself.
You have done a great job. Thanks very much.
i bought the book it was a long time coming as i grew up as a kid watching adreides and the first movie the book is a stand alone concept well done but im not keen on book 2 to 6
Not reading even a single Dune book for a video called "Dune, Islam & Religion" is so utterly ballsy
Not an iota of shame, jesus.
✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus never denied being God
☪ Muslim Response ➜ Jesus said, why do you call me good ? ” No one is good except God alone ( Luke 18 : 19 )
✝ The Christians say ➜ We must ask Jesus for help
☪ Muslim Response ➜ But Jesus always asked God for help
✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus has paid the price for our sins
☪ Muslim Response ➜ but the bible says we must repent for our sins ( Colossians 3 : 25 )
✝ The Christians say ➜ Jesus had to die for our sins
☪ Muslim Response ➜ Repentance without a human sacrifice was enough in the past, according to the bible
One correction: The Butlerian Jihad wasn't a machine upraising, that was a far later interpretation by Frank Herbert's son. In the first 6 books it was humans using machines the control other humans; think something like mass Ai surveillance and monitoring to empower a small elite, not Skynet.
Yup, perhaps the most prophetic part of the Dune books, though Herbert was probably drawing on the original Luddites. Curiously, even the Kevin J Anderson books had the Titans, humans who seized control of humanity through use of AIs, before making them irrelevant after Skynet takes over. That House Atreides in the KJA books is descended from one of the Titans who named himself Agamemnon, not the actual Homeric House of Atreus, strikes me as one of the few elements that might actually have been in those mythological notes/outlines Brian Herbert supposedly found. It sounds exactly like the kind of hash of history that canonically has the Imperium think George of House Washington was the first Padishah Emperor.
@@shangrilainxanaduHonestly don’t even look at the Brian Herbert books as someone who has read some of them a lot of things don’t make sense to what Frank Herbert wrote.
The painful irony, of course, is that without those machines, people simply made instruments of each other. It was fairly inspired, tbh. Herbet had some chops before he went all weird in his later years.
Hi John, Do you think Frank Herbert believed in existence of multi universes (perhaps infinitely)?
A bit of a mistake in your writing there, the Butlerian Jihad itself was the revolution and response to an issue caused by the machines, not the event of the machine issue itself. Now whether it was a machine uprising or humans using AI to opress each other is up to discussions of canon.
As a Muslim, Dune was so refreshing to watch. Finally a movie where the Muslims have more depth then just Oonga-boonga terrorists.
Dune wasn’t about Muslims you ding dong.
You know the movie is about how religion takes people to the extreme and the faith in dune is fake it's made up by the bene gesserits to have power. The fremin believe in bogus
Same brother✨☪️
@@GWMAe2.0why the moon emoji? It does not have anything to do with Islam
@@quandaliousdingle-r3b Because that's how it was written. Probably by old religious people in WhatsApp groups. Don't ask religious people why they do something.
I think one of the most fascinating things about Dune is how it portrays the future of religion. I feel like we have no problem with extrapolating how technical or scientific things might develop in the future, but it’s less common to explore how religion might develop as time goes on.
Yes! Dune also does that with the future development of the human mind, without machine intelligence dominating. That’s very unique for science fiction.
@ecta9604 check out Dr. Iain mcGilchrist 'how our brains turned idio..' heretics. 33 here on Tube
@@pinkfloydguy7781100%. We already did one behavioral modernity, it’d be weird if we didn’t go through more in the future
It's by design because the masses are dumb. It took 30 years for for people to accept Starwars was about religion (Islam). People are discussing religion but most people are lost on the characters instead of being cautious of fanaticism and false Messiahs.
Yes, I find it fascinating. Although the way he just combines names come off as a little funny sometimes.
Just a small theory I had that I wanted to share: "Kwisatz Haderach" could come from "Kfitzat haderech" in Hebrew, which translates to the jumping of paths. It might be a reference to Paul's ability to see and select from multiple future paths.
Makes sense!
You happen to be correct. “Bene Gesserit” and “Kwisats HaDerech” are terms that Frank borrowed from Hebrew.
@@samiam2088 What's the meaning of Bene Gesserit?
@@claudius3359Good Zesuit? Followers of good tradition?
@@claudius3359 B'nei" (בני) means 'children of' (e.g. Bene Tleilax) and "Gesher" (גשר) means 'bridge'.
I just wanna say you're pronounciation for the islamic terms are absoloutely spot on and really does them justice. Hearing someone let alone a foreigner nail the "gh" sound in "ghaib" or "Rh" sound in "Ruh" is really amazing.
You mean Arabic terms.
No the pronunciation of the yearns like Arabic is a harder language to pronounce correctly so him saying it like a native is very difficult and amazing
He literally pronounces “gh” in “ghaib” wrong. Gh is to be pronounced like a French “R”
@@Elimo06no my friend, I've spoken Arabic my whole life and he is pronouncing it correctly
@@RawBerserker bro, غ in ghaib/غيب is not pronounced like gh in Ghana, but rather like rendez-vous in french pronouncistion
One thing that the films conveyed very well was the fact that the Lisan al-Ghaib beliefs of the Fremen were implanted by the Bene Gesserit so that they could "tap into" it and manipulate if they were ever in danger. A major theme of the series, especially as it moves past the first book is how Paul and Lady Jessica stoked the fervor and fanaticism of the Fremen for political/revenge purposes, but it then gets massively out-of-hand and they are unable to keep control of it.
The Bene Geseritt manipulated the pre-existing Zensunni beliefs of the Fremen to secure a bolt hole for stranded Bene Geseritt sisters. They didn't do it to control them, so much as give a safe haven to members of their order. The Fremen religion is a direct descendent of Islam in Frank Herbert's world. Moreover, even prior to going to Dune and having access to the Spice, the Fremen ancestors had access to the genetic memories of their Reverend Mothers going all the way back to Earth. The Bene Geseritt manipulated the Mahdist beliefs the Fremen have from Zensunni religion so that they would have pieces that adhered to a Bene Geseritt having a male BG child aka the Kwisatz Haderach. It's important to understand that Fremen religion is not merely an implantation from the Bene Geseritt.
Yeah, Dune is all about "plans within plans", the Fremen were just another Bene Gesserit backup plan, a tool in the toolbox should it be needed. It's made clear in the first book that the modern day Fremen culture is a fusion of several sources:
- Their original religion and culture stretching back through deep time
- The Missionaria Protectiva (Bene Gesserit) manipulation, some time in the medium past
- The influence of Liet-Kynes and his father before him, the planetologists who realized that Dune could be terraformed and taught the Fremen how to do it
The messianism was there, but it was the BG who convinced the Fremen that their pre-existing messiah legend would be fulfilled by an offworlder Bene Gesserit and her son.
The black-and-grey morality in Dune is fantastic, I thought that was something they really captured in the 2nd movie. Paul and Jessica went down the fatal path prepared for them by the BG, and it couldn't be stopped.
@@QuasarKaraoke2 it was Paul's desire for revenge that caused the Jihad. They could have done as Jessica initially suggested to the Fremen, which was to help them get off world via the smugglers.
Makes you wonder if Paul is the Messiah or an imposter. Freemen said it would be one of them.
@ftlbaby It wasn't Paul's desire for revenge that caused the holy war. It was his following the Golden path. The unification under a single oppressive ruler was needed for human survival in the series to allow for the guided evolution toward humans that can avoid prescient vision, as well as to cause the scattering.
Paul's big error was in being unwilling to merge with the sandworm and become the God Emperor, which would have allowed him to minimize the death caused in his name. Thus it fell to his son Leto II to become the God emperor and see the Golden path to fruition.
Regardless, Paul did not choose the path out of revenge, but out of love for humanity. He needed to portray it as revenge to the fremen for them to understand and follow through with their role in the Golden Path.
“Padishah Emperor” is from the Persian language. Padishah means emperor
Chai tea
In the case of dune it was a reference to the Ottoman Padishahs and the Sardukaur are Janissaries.
I think Filip underestimates Henry Corbin's influence on Herbert. Corbin was obviously best known for his knowledge and research on Iranian history and religion, and was probably the greatest Iranologist of his day. Most of the "Islamic", "Arab", or "Middle Eastern" concepts, ideas, and elements that Herbert integrated into his work were actually taken from the writings of Corbin on Persia. Most Sunnis today have no idea who "Mahdi" even is, while he has a central role in Shi'ism; Herbert obviously acquainted himself with the concept of Mahdi from Corbin's _En Islam Iranien,_ the section where he discusses and compares the Mahdi in Shi'ism to the savior figure called "Saoshyant" in Zoroastrianism (thus concluding that the "Mahdi" is simply Saoshyant Islamified).
@@ilnec sharia law
@@lambert801 I don't think filip is interested in tracing sources, he's trying to highlight parallels instead.
One of Herbert's big inspirations for Dune was Lesley Blanch's (now mostly forgotten) popular history book The Sabres of Paradise, which colorfully recounts the wars of the ghazi Imam Shamil in the Caucasus against the Russian Empire. Once you realize his main source for Fremen culture is the Caucasian Imamate, not the more obvious Bedouins, a lot makes sense.
A great read, alongside the novel. I highly recommend it! :-)
"Chakobsa" is actually Circassian.
In the video, it is mentioned that some inspiration for the book comes from North Africa and the Berbers.
In NA the Berbers call themselves Amazingh, which translates, if a recall correctly, as Free People.
I've only read a few chapters but Herbert blatantly took a lot from this book. E.g. "May Thy Knife Chip and Shatter" had a parallel saying of "May thy Kindjal (dagger) Rust."
@@barbarycorsair8473exactly He was facinated by north Africa
Great video essay, thank you! As a native Arabic speaker, here's a third idea to consider regarding Lissan al-gheib: when i was in grade school in Riyadh, S.A., we had to learn qur'aanic chapters by heart, and the term used for learning something by heart is "7ifiz bil-gheib" . When I first came across the Dune term Lissan al-gheib, that is what stood out for me. Tongue of the Heart
yea, so he combined the persian poet's name hafiz with 7fiz al ghaib
ghaib is not heart, it means missing, gone or concealed. 3an ghaib is to know something without source material not heart
How do you guys read “7”?
Isn't Lisan = Words, Al-Ghaib = the Unseen ? So the proper transliteration should be the 'Words of the Unseen'. That is what I know from from learning some Arabic words.
@@georgiybukharov2978same sound as 'h' as in henry, but the sound comes from back of the throat. It's written as 7 because thats the shape of the letter in arabic that makes this sound. (haa) ح
As a Muslim, I do not see that the film supports Muslims, or even the writer of the novel, as I believe that it is against Islam and religions, and also against empires. He does not support any party, because what will happen in the third part will be that the new empire will be worse than the previous empire, and also his choice of Islam and not choosing it due to its bad history. With Christianity, therefore, he believes that Islam is more liberal than Christianity. The writer is an atheist and does not praise Islam at all. He believes that religions are myths and a use of politics to liberate occupied peoples or to liberate a religious group to spread its idea. There are many Muslims who do not understand atheistic thought and believe that the film praises Muslims.
Exactly
"s a Muslim, I do not see that the film supports Muslims, or even the writer of the novel, as I believe that it is against Islam and religions, and also against empires. He does not support any party, because what will happen in the third part will be that the new empire will be worse than the previous empire, and also his choice of Islam and not choosing it due to its bad history. With Christianity, therefore, he believes that Islam is more liberal than Christianity. The writer is an atheist and does not praise Islam at all. He believes that religions are myths and a use of politics to liberate occupied peoples or to liberate a religious group to spread its idea. There are many Muslims who do not understand atheistic thought and believe that the film praises Muslims."
Great take! Herbert uses the resilience and fanaticism of Islam, The brutal and efficient practices of older ottoman empire (Fascinating how he could pinpoint how Ottomans were not really islamists), the politics and practices of Kabbalah, Jesuits and Catholics, used to infiltrate power structures and manipulate the system globally/universally, the brutalism of Russian and Scandinavian from the past etc. He is very cognisant of the religions and their primary characteristics. He is also well versed in how Politics and Religion work hand in hand.
I enjoyed the books 30 years ago. Well ahead of it's time to recognise how the past and the future creates doom in harmony.
@@timurhant469 Islam is not a fanatical religion. There are certainly fanatical Muslims and there are empires that were fanatical, and even the Prophet Muhammad made a peace document with the polytheists and the Jews, but they did not adhere to it and they wanted to exterminate Muslims and Islam in the Arabian Peninsula, and the Prophet Muhammad was not fanatical. The meaning of my words is that the writer sees that, but I do not. I am convinced by what you say, and every person is free if they believe that Islam is fanatical. But this is not a collective opinion or should be imposed, and are all atheists extremists? Certainly not, despite the presence of people like Hitler and Stalin, who are atheists, and also Oppenheimer, who created a weapon that is not human at all and is also an atheist addition, Paul was not originally an inhabitant of the planet. He only wanted revenge on the Empire and the Houses, and he did not originally believe in the religion of the Freeman people, and Paul was the one who led them to that, not them themselves. Even if Paul was extremist, he was coming from the Houses of the Empire, with the same mentality as the Houses of Extermination and Control over the Planets.
@@Zhm6802 I am an atheist but know word religions quite well. Islam is the fastest growing religion from it's birth an that was through the sword. Judaism and Christianity is super close too. Atheists create wars and weapons NOT in the name of Atheism. Religious wars and religion driven campaigns overweight anything any Atheist ever did. When I used fanaticism, I did not mention war though. I meant devotion and deep belief.
@@timurhant469 It is not true at all, the French used enlightenment as a means to occupy peoples to build their empires, and it was very clear in the occupation of Egypt. Even the Soviets used the same method. Atheism also has an extremist style. Hitler, the French and the Soviets had goals to build an atheistic empire, and this is considered fanaticism, and I did not read the Qur’an in its verses. It indicates attacking the other and forcing him to accept the religion. Also, the verses of the Qur’an were clear that there is no coercion in religion, and Surat Al-Kafirun also laid down pillars for the relationship between the Muslim and the non-Muslim, and its content was not to force the other to accept the religion. Do not confuse the Qur’an with the Muslim, there are big differences.
Been obsessed with Dune for 4 years now and it’s what sparked my interest in Islam and led me to your channel. Excited to hear your take!
Moga mendapat Hidayah, amin
the real mahdi is coming insyaallah
The real Islam is very different from Western fantasy. You should continue to study it.
@@pikapi6993Lol I think we’re on two opposite sides of this topic but yes, they should study Islam more.
@@pikapi6993 exactly, so that he may learn how stupid religion in general is. And the worst form at this time a religion can take is Islam.
" Lisan al gheib " is a nickname of Hafez the Persian Poet whom must have been mentioned many times in Henry Corbin's books studied by Herbert .
Yeah that kept making me laugh. Like Timothée Chalamet was just about to annihilate the imperial forces by whipping out some kick ass verses.
Interesting, thanks for that.
@@beback_ "Usul no longer needs his weird rhyme scheme module"
@@beback_ turns out the final battle is an epic rap battle 😂
Fun fact, hafiz may have memorised the quran but he was in no shape a muslim
"Too many houses and Too many names" while knowing all Islamic figures' names; Arabic pronunciation their sects, teachers, and students.
Edit: it was a compliment for his passion and dedication to his field of expertise.
I never read Dune.
I was too busy learning all that stuff I guess 🤔
@@LetsTalkReligion Well maybe you can try it now just stop after chapterhouse
Nah, Filip was too polite, or felt the book was too weak for him. I also dropped the book at 10%, it started to read like a children's book.
One of these things exists in real life (I say this as someone with way too much Dune knowledge in my head)
@@LetsTalkReligion You should read the book and make part 2, to this video. There is a lot you are missing. The channel "Book Of James" I believe covers this topic pretty well. Title: "Arabic and Islam in DUNE"
With Paul as Lisan al-Gaib we mustn't forget that he was trained (and mastered) the art of the Voice, which is the 'mystic' ability to influence people's minds and the physical universe by sound waves (which is supposedly also a lost art found in the ancient middle East).
it's basically what "spelling" means, so it kind of relates to Magic, though magic is also from Magi or Mogh, (sages of zoroasterian religion from old persia) and have been known for it (using words and voice to alter reality) even as far as ancient Greece, but it's not exactly middle eastern, because it's a universal aspect of humans and it can be found in any culture and every era, although maybe it had a specific form and use in middle east pre-islamic religious figures, which was adapted and changed but continued to the islamic age,
@@kooshanjazayeri When delving into religious inspiration, the ancient religions of Sumeria, Akkad, and other Mesopotamian civilizations provide valuable insights. These cultures, along with pre-Islamic Arabian religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism etc, as reflected in texts like the Vedas "hinduism", emphasized concepts such as the 'mind,' reminiscent of portrayals in works like Dune, and the notion of the 'voice,' prevalent in pre-Zoroastrian and pre-Abrahamic beliefs.
As we independently research and connect these historical dots based on our perceptions, it's important to recognize the subjectivity of our exploration. Our interpretations are not based on the specific religious inspirations chosen by authors for their own lore, but rather on our understanding of these ancient concepts.
Ppl will really watch Dune and root for the Freman then leave the theater and ignore the colonial oppression of Israel on the Palestinian people.
And also ignore the terrorism 💀
And also ignore the terrorism 💀..
Oh, so oppressed. when 1948 Palestine war 7 Arab countries attacked Israel intended to eliminate the Jews. All the Arab-Israel war except for one were all initiated by the Arabs. Including 10/7 attack.
Now 20% citizen of Israel are Muslim and they get to go the same university with the Jews, they get to participate politics as well as the Jews. If someone in Gaza declare themselves Gay, they get to go to Israel and get protection there. Mean while, every house in Israel need a "safe room" because rockets constantly bomb them from Gaza and from the North.
Where are the Jews in Egypt? Where are the Jews in Yemen? Where are the Jews in Libya? Iraq? There were numerous Jewish settlement across middle East and north Africa after WW2, where have they gone?
Reminder, Gaza has another border with Egypt and the Egyptian would take no Gazans in. None of the Arab countries in middle east would take the Gazans in after 10/7.
Who shat in your head?@@ycaShen
Me describing Dune Part 1 to my sister before seeing Dune Part 2. “Space Europeans are invading space Arabia because they want space cocaine”.
"In a move so unsurprising there is literally an eons-old galactic prophecy about it, powerful, horny men are unable to peacefully share a planet made of cocaine."
August Pollack.
We don't have cocaine in Arabia. The spice is a reference to oil I think.
Maybe a mix between oil and Afghan poppies.
But to be honest you can't really consider Afghanistan as Middle Eastern. They're east of Iran.
@@ArabMan98 yh the spice would be oil and the west wants it
I think you mistaken Arabia with Colombia
Space Opium*
I was literally as I finished the moving thinking "I would adore it if Lets Talk Religion Made an Analysis" and have been binging your videos on Islamic practice since the movies release. I am so excited to watch this video.
The comments are amazing too everyone has their own insight to what certain references mean
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’
Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah:
1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements.
2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa.
3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings.
4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
@@zazawitch Most of those comments completely ignore what Frank Herbert himself has said, and what becomes crystal clear to everyone who bothers to read that novel instead of talking about it or watching those perverted movies. Hint: Dune is inspired by the experiences with stubborn idiots - mostly in rural regions - and their clinging to excerpts of ancient scripture. Dune is not inspired by religions or cultures at all.
@@zazawitch so true. No Islamophobes in sight and its refreshing to see
The connections between the Bene Gesserit and Catholicism are more aesthetic than their actual beliefs. There's the heavy use of Latin with them - Bene Gesserit means "He has done well," their intelligence network is called the Missionaria and the Panoplia Prophetica. Their leaders are Reverend Mothers, which is a blend of Catholic leadership titles. But the bigger impact on the story is less about the similar beliefs and more the similar functions. Dune is all feudal, and the various noble houses and emperor draw their power from a connection to the Bene Gesserit, just as kings and the aristocracy in Europe drew legitimacy from the Catholic Church, or how figures such as Cardinal Richelieu were intermixed with the function of government.
As for why they're all women in that case, another theme in the first six Dune books is Frank Herbert's "ideas" about sexuality, which are less scholarly and more...odd.
Yeah, for a guy who prided himself with anti authoritarianism and resisting imposed social dogmas, Herbert’s wired obsession with strict sex and gender binaries are a real blind spot.
I would also add that Gesserit sounds a bit like Jesuit. Which would be an order within the Catholic Church
@@archer1949 did you read God Emperor of Dune? He goes on at length describing anti homosexual bigotry as immature and ahistorical, and his reason for the all female fish speaker army is pretty gender progressive, so I have to ask where you got this idea?
@@theLetterDoubleYou He was homophobic lol search up how he treated his gay son.
I’d just add to this the fact that Frank Herbert was a lapsed Catholic, and grew up in Catholic school with a disdain for the strict nuns that were his teachers. I can’t remember if he revealed this in an interview or what, but I’m pretty sure it’s true. So the Bene Gesserit being reminiscent of nuns, and being despicable, tracks with that.
i really love the effort you made to pronounce the Arabic words as close as it is in the original .. even do it has some difficult litters for you .. yet you still made it .. keep it up the great job brother
On a slightly unrelated note, I saw dune with my dad when it came out and we were discussing how the bene gesserit are morally grey. For context we are both Irish Catholic with experience of the clergy in our schooling.
I said the bene gesserit are out for themselves and no other powers. My dad just said 'they are nuns' and I have never agreed with a statement more. They are the nunny - est nuns that ever did nun, in absolutely every way.
I felt more of a Maenad of Dionysus vibe.
The changing of the water of life followed by an orgiastic frenzy.
Check out Brian Muraresku’ s book
“ THE IMMORTALITY KEY- The Religion with no name”.
@@bradical7772 I went to Catholic school in Ireland, trust me, the bene gesserit are nuns.
...no. No they aren't. There is certainly a surface level similarity, as women wearing religious garbs, but that's about it. The Bene Gesserit are a group that has a great deal of secret hidden power, while ostensibly being subservient to the Emperor. That is not the case irl, where nuns are meant to be humble and have little power. Hell, the Bene Gesserit regularly engage in sex for the purposes of their saving certain useful bloodlines and genetics. Nuns certainly don't do that.
So, not at all morally grey, just selfish.
Apart from using sex as a weapon or means of subjugation, that's not particularly nunnish 😅
I was blessed to meet with Frank Herbert his wife and mother on several occasions in 1975. Frank had been a war correspondent during his life, which took him to many places around the globe. He often wrote articles for The Seattle Times. He was a remarkable man. His personality is reflected in many of the Dune characters, including his gift of music. He lived an exemplary life and spoke truth even when it was not the popular thing to do. I wish for him and his family the highest of places in Janah (paradise)
Your knowledge of Islam is amazing! I really appreciate you outlining and mentioning things like the Nafs and Ruh, I especially liked how you caught yourself when talking about that topic and mentioned that these concepts are important in all of Islam not just Sufism. Good stuff!
The terms used in the Dune series are really interesting. Ghaib can also mean the "Veil" and it can also refer to the Occultation you mentioned regarding the Mahdi in Shia Twelver Islam.
Thanks again for this video. Was very entertaining to watch.
maximum respect for not using ai art.
++
Eyeroll
indeed it's kind of refreshing
@@eatfrenchtoastshuddup
Here's another term , arrakis came from the arabic word الراقص , which mean the dancer and that describes the man who walks in front of camles as a leader and he avoids dunes in desert so he is kind of a dancer ,which describes the freman famous walk to avoid the warms, and arab astronomers gave this name to bunch of stars that it's light appear to be dancing when watching at night.
The Fremen and much of the basic plot of Dune is based on a history of the mid 19th century struggle between the Russian Empire and Shamyl, the messianic and mystical Sheik of the Caucacus: Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. The book is Lesley Blanch’s “The Sabres of Paradise.” My university library has a copy, but there are usually some for sale online. As you read it, along with Dune, you will see what inspired Frank Herbert. :-)
It isn't. You are making up wild claims.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 You don’t seem to be familiar with Herbert’s comments on his research for Dune. Do some reading. Then you can contribute to the discussion.
@@lynnmaners9165 Frank Herbert never said that those things inspired him PERIOD! He explained the intentions behind Dune as a warning against all sorts of prophets. Your arrogant drivel is just that: drivel.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 You are wrong. Sorry you can’t do your own research. You may notice that you are the only commenter who doesn’t understand that Herbert used the Caucasian revolt against the Russian Empire as a model for the Fremen. Read Blanch’s book, then comment, and we can have a discussion. Otherwise, we can’t.
@@lynnmaners9165 There is nothing to understand except that you are completely mistaken, and there is no basis for your claims. You are following an attempt at approbiation of Frank Herbert's works. That's all.
The Bene Geserit order is not catholicism in the belief system, but in the way they have their own agenda in the evangelizing process. They made alliance with the main power, spreading believes that make it easier to colonize other cultures and to control the population. Catholicism wasn't the only religion to do that, but it was a major force in the Spanish Empire expansion
well put Johanna 🙏
Think Bene(dictine) Jesuit (Gesserit)
My take as well>@@philipoulton7730
How to say that you know nothing about Catholicism without saying it.
The core idea of the Bene Gesserit narrative is that they do not share their beliefs with the public, but create many other opposing belief systems to control. This is just the opposite of what Catholic Church has always done, and why has been criticized over: Keeping a strict unity over beliefs.
@@philipoulton7730For an author who literally researched and took the concept of many religions, this would feel as an insult.
Fremen could be referring to "Free Men", a term used by Herbert on a previous Dune outline titled Spice Planet, "Free Men" is also the literal translation of imazighen, how Amazighs people, the indigenous inhabitants of the North African littoral and Sahara desert, call themselves.
12:16 I love this painting of Jesus. I've never seen that before. Another note.. We have been denied knowledge of all these Islamic thinkers, in our western education. One has to seek this out for themselves, then find out how much they've contributed to all of the world knowledge.
Agree. It is sad that some people want to "re-write" history in favor of theirs. I wonder how many real history actually lost.
The analogy of Dune to what reality entails such as the oil and the Arabian Peninsula is striking.
Shit I can't believe I never made the connection between the spice on Arakas and oil in the Persian gulf
It's particularly interesting considering that Dune was written decades before events like the US invasion of Iraq.
I didn't even notice, oh my, that's so true
It's a solid metaphor for our time; the West gives the Arabic people the weapons to secure their independence, the Arabic people gain power, the West returns to prevent this rise to power
Yep - in the Dune universe, melange is what makes everything moves:
- it allows the Navigator's Guild to plot FTL travels in their heighliners;
- it allows the Bene Gesserit the ability to access their genetic memory;
- it extends the period of human life;
Paul background is more related to the Shia Mahdi story. Born of a concubine . Son/descendant of a martyred leader who fought an evil dynasty.
Regardless the movie is great in showing the journey of self doubt and exploring the themes of faith and destiny.
As a Shia muslim, whil watching I couldn't help but continue thinking of the parallels between Dune and Shi'a Theology. Super interesting way to be faced with my religion lol.
Well Leto Paul’s father didn’t fight the evil dynasty
@@dantedavis4679 I thought Duke Leto was considered a threat to the Emperor because he was gaining support in he Landsraad?
@@AmericanImperium2112 Sorta it was more that the Emperor was an envious and jealous man the Sardaukar the Emperor’s guard are the best warriors in the universe, but whispers were being had that with Leto’s training the Atreides guards were better and whispers kept being had how Leto was a great warrior and great at training and how he was a great leader and fighter. So Shaddam got jealous feeling he didn’t have the greatest warriors and he felt threatened his house has ruled for 10,000 years but he felt Leto might try to overthrow him and if Leto tried he would have support. In reality though Leto never wanted to overthrow him he was loyal the Emperor murdered him in cold bold over jealousy and feeling threatened Leto might do something.
@@dantedavis4679 Okay thanks. 👍
Something not mentioned: Herbert's term "Kwizats Haderach" is probably derived from the Hebrew phrase קפיצת הדרך kfitzat haderech, "the shortening of the way", a concept from Judaism but especially Kabbalah referring to someone whose body or mind can be in multiple places at once, or who can miraculously travel far distances.
In Sufi traditions has, “tayyi mekan”(elimination of place/matter: Be in multiple place at ones) and “basti zaman "(elimination of time: experience very long time/years/decades in very short period/minutes/hours)”. Interesting! Why Herbert use Hebrew phrase instead of Arabic one, like other phrases…
@@scratneednutsia1923 I think a reason for the difference is that the "Kwisatz Haderach" and the "Lisan al-Ghaib" are (technically) different things. The "Kwisatz Haderach" is the final product of the Bene Dessert breeding program, the male able to access both male and female memories. That means the "Kwisatz Haderach" isn't part of the Fremens' Islamic religious heritage.
When Paul starts to lean into the "Lisan al-Ghaib" prophecies, the reason he's actually successful is because he really IS the "Kwisatz Haderach" and brings those superhuman abilities into everything he does. The Bene Gesserit wanted to control the "Kwisatz Haderach" but they never anticipated that he would use his abilities to weaponize another culture's religious fanaticism against them.
Just noticing the similarity of the importance of the maternal line in Judiasm and with the Bene Gesserit…
@@runcmd1419 Within the lore of Dune, Jews still exist and are the only Old Earth religion to have survived more or less intact. The Bene Gesserit have copied some aspects of Jewish mysticism, which variously annoys and amuses the actual Jews of the Dune universe.
Fascinating in Sufism we have exactly the same thing
I read and reread most of the books in the combined Dune universe and I always pickup something new when I do. I am thankful that you finally finished Dune and corrected your presentation. I heartily recommend you read the background books for a better understanding and foundation foa the world of Dune. I had always been fascinated with the Fremen and their culture. This fascination led me to study Islam as an influence to Frank Herbert's writing. I am happy to say I found peace and purpose in Islam that I took my Shahada and now am a faithful Muslimah. ALHUMDULLILAH!🤲
I think the reason why they claim there are Catholic roots to the Bene Gesserit (think I spelled that right), is because “Gesserit” sounds like “Jesuit”, which is an order within the Catholic Church. Apart from that, that’s all I can think of
The whole eugenics thing is sadly also very Catholic
@@nerdisaurWhat.
I knew nothing about Dune and used to have no interest in it, til I watched the new version a few years ago and was immediately intrigued by the deep embedding of various religious symbology. I 💯% agree in the Bene Gesserit representation being from Catholicism... Like you I think Jesuit but also about what their true 'underground' role (in the world) is believed to be/been. And for some reason when I heard mention here that there was a dual memory (in the male and female lines) it made me dwell on the symbology used by Jesuit (historically and can be seen in the present here and there) of the two horseman riding one horse. (I get that this line of thought likely makes no sense to anyone else, LOL) but like two lines of consciousness separate but then combined (riding one horse)
@@nerdisaur lol what? Hahahahahahahahahaha
@@Chocol8Mamma That is not Jesuit symbology, though. The two riders on one horse is usually associated with the Knights Templar who occasionally used this imagery. That was more than 200 years before the Jesuits were even founded.
As a middle eastern person I can tell you most distinctions in dune and Arabs and Islam
Fremen: inspired by bedouins in Yemen and United Arab Emirates and Fremen rhymes with Yemen
(Lisan al gaib) (لسان الغايب) pronounced forcefully lisan al GH’ah’yeb or ghaib meaning the tongue of the hidden, in the story could mean hidden goods or the hidden secret to power or spice who knows
Al mahdi: an imam (Mohamed al mahdi) more prevalent in shia Islam
Muahdib: مأدب which means the person who puts things in order and gets people to behave
In general and a final distinction these Arabic words are actually
I know Dune is a very heavy book series, I found that the audio books helped me get through the series, read the books or listen to the audiobooks they are great and make you really think.
Same!
The first few books are straightforward enough, but by the time they start speaking fish it’s a real mess.
As a Muslim, your pronounciation with Arabic words is amazing! I loved this video
This is great 😮 especially from someone who didnt fully read the books. I learn a lot from your analysis and very refreshing than the usual lore bros.
I went to a catholic primary school, run by Sisters of Mercy, and the Bene Geserit women definitely brought my memories of those nuns to mind - their countenance more so than their ideals/beliefs.
Same thing happened to me.
Mary ward and Jesuits lol
I am watching your video for the first time! Thank you for such an elaborate and eloquent explanation of the Dune books/series. I will definitely watch and ponder. Also, your pronunciation of the Arabic words are spot on, this was amazing.
Just to clarify about the Reverend Mothers and the Bene Gesserit and the ancestral memory. It's not just former Bene Gesserit they can access the memories of, it's every female genetic ancestor going back to prehistory on Earth, not just those that happened to also be Bene Gesserit and Reverend Mothers. Love your videos! thank you for all your work
The represent Jews...
@@IlluminatiTransmissions and you felt the need to state this in such a way, why?
@@bupdragon4694 Because the host asked for way in which he thought the theories were Catholic based. I think they make more sense as I stated it.
@@IlluminatiTransmissions
No they are Jesuits.
Jews don't belief in Jesus.
By the way, the 12 imams in Shee’a islam were actual historical figures which really lived. Whether the 12th is “the” Mahdi or not is the debate. But all of them have lived, their writings and books exist, they are well documented, they taught many students, etc. so that part is not mystical, it is actual historical truth. Their lives are fully documented, where they lived, what they did, where and how they died etc.
yeah and they also all died
which throws the theory that Al-Mahdi is a the 12th imam out the window
unless you convince yourself that the 12th Imam have been alive for the past 1151 years, just hiding and waiting
when Muhammad ibn Hasan the 12th Imam died (like we all do), they stated this thing about him going into hiding
first communicating then disappearing all together and no one knows where he is
cause otherwise their entire version of islam falls apart without the 12 imams theology
at least that's how i see it from what i know and studied
@@laker_fanatic3985Yeah thats illogical from any layman perspective because on one hand shia say that imam leads the muslim group by teaching them the true teaching of that era and on the other hand their last imam (mehdi) had not appeared and is hiding fir 10 centuries so thats a total flaw in the shia imams concept and those who follow it!
Also when shia say that they have 12 imams (twelvers) but they donot know that in their own books the son of ali other than hasan and hussain (R.A) which is abu hanfia had also claimed to be imam and if you ignore it for a moment you come down to hussain descendents i.e zain ul abdin and then baqir then jafer then his two sons both claimed to be imam i.e musa kazim and Ismail, so they their own issue of who is the real imam and then they tell us that their imam are this nad that but they donot see that their imams are disputed
I totally respect ahlu bayt and it part of my iman and also they these are the lies that were forced on them
@@laker_fanatic3985 I don't see anything illogical if you are a Muslim. If Nuh AS can live for over 950 years, if the seven men in the cave can stay asleep for over 300 years, surely Allah Almighty can do something similar for Imam Mahdi AS.
@@laker_fanatic3985"I arbitrarily declare that this part of the religion doesn't make sense scientifically while excusing the parts I believe in. why? because I believe in them"
Fascinating, and I am very glad you covered this. Thank you. To get the whole picture of Paul Atreides, you really need to read the next book of the original trilogy, Dune Messiah. It is short, and it completes one of Herbert's primary points, the dangers of Messianic belief and culture. The third book, Children of Dune, begins to broaden the Dune universe, primarily concerned with the lives of Paul's children. The first book after the trilogy, God Emperor of Dune, in my mind complements the "trilogy" to an entire fullness. (Paul is not the God Emperor, however.) IMO, Frank Herbert's final two books lose a lot of the detailed philosophical/religious aspects, and are more traditional space opera. Still great reading, though. Many folks consider the extra books co-written by Frank's son as lesser works and not really part of Frank's vision.
You asked why some people see an element of Catholicism in the Bene Gesseriit. For me, it is a female order, similar to nuns, referring to themselves as mothers whether they are or not. I think you expanded the concept further in describing the Orange Catholic Bible, mentioning that one of its basis was a Hindu-Catholic mixture (along with Islamic-Zen, and some other Catholic combo you mentioned that I forgot).
Yes, I look forward to finishing the first book and reading at least the two sequels. They are on my bookshelf.
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’
Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah:
1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements.
2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa.
3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings.
4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
Someone should refute his blatantly false claims and debunk his bullshit. His misuse of Frank Herbert's name is disgusting.
Thank youu! I was one of the people who requested the video much apprecietd!
Hmm, you previous comment does said that.
It's admirable how you organize and present your thoughts on these topics 👍🏽
The science fiction Pitch Black has this futuristic neo Islamic backdrop where, when they are on another planet they would stand in a circle instead of a line and they would point their prayers upward instead of eastward.
Exploring these ideas, remind us that belief systems are not simply non-physical they are metaphysical and just as susceptible to the unstoppable nature of change as anything of actual physical substance.
I would have liked to hear more about 'Zen' part in the Zensunni religion in Dune. I have also read that Frank Herbert was very interested in Zen, and was friends with and learned a lot from Alan Watts, but I don't really seen Zen coming through much in the book or the movie. Can someone explain what I'm missing?
You kinda see more of it in the later books. But to be honest I do believe it was more in the background than the Islamic beliefs
The movie is missing A LOT
@@quixotiq yeah the movie definitely simplified the religious complexity
@@quixotiq I read the first book and don’t recall many Zen-like themes.
So do I
Bro, you should read the book. I was a Subud child, so of course mom recommended DUNE. I read the first book only, four times so far, and studied the appendices. There are some who think that DUNE is the best ever Sci-Fi novel, but I wouldn't state that. A lot of Subud people was fascinated with DUNE.
As a hindu, I have to say that Islam is an intriguing religion and I want to learn more about it especially after watching Dune.
Ill be honest, i wanted to learn about it too, and I did. After learning about hinduism and buddism, about christianity and judaism.
So, my advice - skip islam, go to judaism because its the base for both christianity and islam. Islam just says that everything else is wrong outright while stealing all the ideas from the old and new testament.
Noticing your interest in knowledge, I'd be happy to assist you with any inquiries you might have about that.
@@abujabr there is ample knowledge elsewhere
Too many bigoted and racist radical ideas are mixed in to Islam
Again, ALL that "truthful knowledge" already came in the form of the old and new testament, Talmud, Vedas, Greek philosophy etc
@@abujabr there's ample knowledge elsewhere
Too much radicality integrated into Islamic ideas
Again, all that "truthful knowledge" came beforehand in the form of the old and new testament, the vedas, Greek philosophy etc
Remember, it is your duty as a Muslim to convert polytheistic beliefs right?
And you can lie and even must lie in order to achieve that holy goal, right?
And if he doesn't, you MUST exterminate
Right?!
👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼👎🏼
@@abujabr yea yeah
You are compelled to "assist him" knowing how his religion is wrong right?
Tell him what happens when he rejects your prophet?
Thanks!
Great video! I saw a man on the metro a few weeks ago and he looked extremely familiar and couldn’t pinpoint why. Now I’m pretty sure it was you who I saw!
Thank you for all your effort and knowlegde you share with us, Filip!
What knowledge? His claims are false, and his interpretation is flat earth level of bullshit.
As a Muslim, I ABSOLUTELY LOVE DUNE, Dune Part 2 was just too GOOD.
Islam is doom for all!
@@ibadali8774 Islam is the Salvation for all.. You will see when the Dajjal Arrives.
@@PhoneUse-rm2rp bro ain't messing around, you took him straight to the end XD
I don't know about the end days, but Islam is turning the current days as bad as possible for all of us.
@PhoneUse-rm2rp yes, we can see the death and destruction in Muslim countries.
One of the director's touch points was political will exerted by the Catholic church in Quebec. He grew up near Trois Riviere.
Awesome video, also, happy to find out you're a fellow musician!
this is awesome! a mini series on each of any/all the major sci-fi IPs would probably be a hit. Star Trek, Star Wars, 40K, etc, I'd watch all of it
Great video keep it up you're doing amazing things 😁💯
קפיצת הדרך
or kfitzat haderech
Is a kabbalistic term that talks about the ability to reach distant places in an instant. It literally means jumping the path in hebrew.
Interesting as a similar Sufi concept exists of some saints being able to transport vast distances by taking one step as a form of Karamah (miracle for saints). Also interesting that the Hebrew words kfitzat is similar to Arabic qifzat or kifzat قفزة which means jump
@@ghassanfadhalbaitbinsaleem2914 Both Hebrew and Arabic languages have Semitic roots, so it makes sense for there to be similarities.
A video by my favorite religious studies channel on religion in my favorite book. Perfection
My man i don't know if you're Arabic or not but iam hella suprised that a westerners know that much about Islam.
I salute you my friend🙋♂️
Thank you so much for your work, giving us free, entertaining, valuable education. Really grateful for your work.
This was so insightful. Love the way the connections across various religions was made in this podcast. Thank you!
It's full of blatant lies. It's disgusting. For example there are no indigenous people on Arrakis.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727well all humans are indigenous to Earth, the only thing I think indigenous to Arrakis is the Sandworms but they could’ve been a genetically engineered worm for all that matters.
Oh damn , i actually wanted a video on this and espeacially from you , AS ITS WAS WRITTEN.
Muslim myself here, have to point out that a lot of things characterized as 'islamic' in this movie are outright shia culture and has nothing to do with mainstream sunni islam. Most sunni muslims do not believe in the same eschatology as shias and the mahdi is a big point of dispute
Yeah, nobody asked you
Who asked you@@Jebe_Noyon
No, the Mahdi is also part of Sunnis
Sunni believe in mahdi too
Sunnis do believe in a Mahdi, but his role in day to day religious dialogue and worship amongst Sunnis is much more understated compared to Shias. It’s like night and day. The Mahdi (at least amongst Twelvers) is definitely a focal point of the religion, and in this sense, Dune (both the movies and books) is definitely more akin to Shia eschatology.
So glad that Hollywood painted Islam in a much more deeper sense, which holds true for it. We were sick of the misrepresentation, and complete disregard for the Abrahamic Scriptures and the blatant Islamophobia. Dune gave a wider perspective on Islam and religion, and we’re here to witness it. It’s amazing.
Thanks for providing a thorough descriptions on arabic terms used in this universe. Made me realize how much words in my language (kazakh) originated from arabiс
I am surprised you didn't bring up the Jewish origin of the name "Kwizatz Hadarach", as it is Herbert's mispronunciation of the Hebrew "Kfitzat Haderech", which IRL is used for the Jewish idea that some prophets, rabbis and sages could teleport, but Herbert seems to be using it by taking its literal meaning- "the jumping of the path" or "quickening of the way" to show that the Bene Geserit see the creation of the Kwizatz Hadarach as a quick means to their ultimate goals at large.
dont worry judaism is put in the side and often forgotten to be the origin of islam and christianity
Good video. Surprised you didn’t include the mention of jinn in the second film
Masterpieces inspire masterpieces. Thank you for this one.
Amazing video! I love your knowledge and how you applied it to this universe.
This guys is very smart and has done his research on Islam as he has drawn the parallels on Islam in general in particular Shia, Sufism and the Ruh...impressed
I recently learned that stories of Jesus and Mary are also told in Islam. I grew up Christian and am unfamiliar with the traditions of Islam. It would be very interesting to hear a scholarly presentation about this. I am curious to learn about the differences between Christianity and Islam in the stories about these figures, differences in how they are worshipped or revered, and how did both communities arrive at different histories for these two important religious figures. Does the Islamic view of Mary and Jesus predate Islam? How far back did this divergence occur? I don’t even know how to begin answering these questions on my own and believe this channel or Religion for Breakfast could knock it out of the park. In media, pop culture, and even in some churches it is often implied that these two religions are incongruous and that either one or the other will celebrate victory, yuk, but I feel a unity is the only way we are going to get to where we need to go and that will come through knowledge of what we share. Perhaps you can recommend a sources that address these questions…
I love your channel and enjoy your music! Thank You!!!
,
When ever you have the time to get into the books you should. There so multi faceted i cant even begin what part of it i like the most
I plan to!
@@LetsTalkReligion once it gets past paul’s son it does get weirdly wild
@@PresidentDrPeper they said the first book was unfilmable, they ain't seen nothing yet!
As a Muslim and someone who enjoys sci-fi movies, especially in this genre and theme, I really liked both parts of Dune. The graphics, actors, decorations, and the mysterious conspiracies are impressive. However, I feel like they tried to incorporate some aspects of Muslim theologies and prophecies, which seemed favorable to us but also carried a lot of messages. For example, Muslims praying to the Mahdi or the Mahdi ultimately becoming someone who wants to rule the world like many others, or even becoming another evil character. Yes, the main character is portrayed as a savior Mahdi with many positive attributes, but at the same time, they seem to suggest that the person many Muslims are waiting for to bring justice to the world is actually a liar who speaks beautiful words and appears brave, but in the end, uses people for their own desires.
Well there is a false messiah no? Also this is like 40k years in the future there are so many sects at this point I would argue Zen-shiaism isn't even Islam
As an amazigh muslim that comes from a mountain tribe in the south of Morocco, I enjoyed your analysis and I felt very connected to this lore, and I feel like Fremen comes From the meaning of Amazigh which is "Free man".
Fremen reminds me of the "Amazigh" people from north africa, which means "free men". They also wear blue.
Fremen*
Amazigh is a 70s term, made by the French, their name is Berber and even tho they are called Native to North Africa, genomic have showed the otherwise as their genome is 99% Eurasian wish explain their none African phenotype
@@daaaxo8583 can you give me the source of this information?
@@daaaxo8583souce about this "99%" Eurasien ?
I am from North Africa and never heard of this.
From what I know they are from a combination of origins. There is Amazigh that lived here in North Africa forever (many archaeological findings ). And than you get the Phenicians, Romans, Vandals who came here throught history. They got assimilated with the berbers already living here
More recently there is also Arabs and Ottomans. And many berbers got arabised (began speaking Arabic )after the coming of Islam
The berber language itself is semetic so they should be closer to other Middle Eastern semitic people.
@@daaaxo8583
"Amazigh" is a term that means "Free", which north african native people used to describ themselves (white people) as opposed to slaves (non white people), however, Amazighs never called themselves "Berber", berber means "foreigner", and it was used by greeks, so saying that "Amazigh" came with the french occupation is simply laughable.
Dune is about the dangers of blindly following and believing in these messiahs and prophets. Herberts work is very critical of religion in general. He does talk about what the ideal version of religion could be but he showed that in his work this wasnt the case. Pauls prophecies and the fremen belief is manufactured and not real. The belief in paul by the fremen will lead to a devastating jihad that will kill 61 billion people. Herbert is critiquing islam with the overall message of paul.
All religion, not Islam. For the last time, the Fremen are NOT MUSLIMS.
@@quixotiq yes i did mention all religion. But the fremen are influenced by islamic language which leads to videos like these thinking that dune is praising the ideology. It is a video about dune and islam after all.
Brand Islam, not really the 2nd Caliph Umar's Islam.
@AnonymousNunyabusiness a twisted man's view of islam is just a twisted man's view of islam
@@liosns and criticism to someone's delusion can only be delusion right
I got into the dune series because of your videos and others on religion
You should have read the book for this video, though I appreciate that you were up front about not having done so.
@2:51 probably the biggest problem with Dune and also one of it's greatest assets. The story is painfully slow and while some worlds "immerse" you, Dune dunks you head first in the deep end of the pool. Once you get used to it the effect is very cool; it's written as though you've been living in this universe for a few decades, therefore we can namedrop all kinds of stuff your familiar with. Extremely jarring but if you can hang in there you get to see how deep the world building gets and how everything from politics to commerce to religion interact.
my dad is a muslim and a pretty devout one, a bit too conservative and traditionalist too, the type that would callout bid'ah (very iconoclastic) and any of those reform stuff, I can see him visibly uncomfortable and anxious when the freemen starts screaming "HE'S THE MAHDI"
because I think in his worldview those stuffs matters a lot
All Muslims should call out on bid’ah. As doing so we preserve the religion and teachings of enjoining good and forbidding evil. Turning a blind eye to bid’ah leads to inner destruction of Islam and the misguidance of other Muslims. There are many ahadith (narrations) of the prophet ﷺ about bid’ah and going against it.
@@aladin23 what is bid'ah
@@Darkcamera45 it’s innovation or heresy in the religion. Ascribing something unoriginal to the religion which wasn’t present during the time of the prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and/or his companions. The prophet sternly warned against all kinds of heresy and innovation within the religion and discouraged such acts of heresy.
i think he was uncomfortable and anxious because he knows he is not the Mehdi . there's many signs that says that .. and the writer try's making it look like that its religions fault when clearly not .. its a human thing .. people go after people even if they are not promised many years ago ... but they make promises for the future and that's why we see horrible people with the most votes in the election people thinking he/she is their savior ..
I believe the reason why people think the Bene Gesserit are based on Catholicism is due to the name. Frank Herbert pronounced Gesserit almost identically to Jesuit. He was raised as a Jesuit, so he had firsthand experience. "Bene" comes from the Latin "good," thus they aren't merely Jesuits, but "Good" Jesuits. The other possibility is the Latin phrase "bene gesserit" meaning something like "good behavior." I can see the Sisterhood manipulating the word Jesuit into "Gesserit" to make people think they are benign, while in the shadows they scheme. They dress in similar long black robes, with Reverend Mothers often wearing an "aba hood." There's also their titles: the Sisterhood, Reverend Mother, Mother Superior, etc. Their "Chapterhouse" comes from a building attached to a Catholic cathedral.
There are plenty of differences from Catholicism: they obviously aren't celibate but instead personally ensure bloodlines continue, their members are distinctly NOT religious despite playing up a missionary role for all religions, and whereas nuns are controlled by men, Frank Herbert specifically wanted the Bene Gesserit is be an independent and powerful all-female group. They represent everything he hated about Catholicism and organized religion in general: manipulating whole nations, pulling strings to wage the wars they want, being instrumental in massacres and genocides, using faith as a form of mind control and enslavement. His bad experience with the Jesuits led to Herbert converting to Zen Buddhism, similar to how Lady Jessica and Paul break from the Bene Gesserit's path and join the Zensunni Fremen.
you lost me at "I have not actually read the book."
His claims are ridiculously false. He is just another idiot trying to make profit by misrepresenting Frank Herbert's ideas.
So sad, you missed most of the video… 😂
@@Rayanaman44 Missing a pile of false claims is not a loss.
Maaaaaan shut upppppp
You can know plenty of shit about a book without reading ***the book***
Dune might be the most insufferable gatekeeping fanbase of all time
I was raised deeply indoctrinated with shia religion and when I went to see this movoe in theaters I felt like I was watching the stories of my childhood on screen. The phrases, the challanges even the twists especially one in regrds to the blood line of mahdi and his mother are stuff I knew since childhood. I used to recite the names of imams, write letters to mehdi and even pray for his health and guidance. Watching this movie was quite an unreal experience to me.
The Spice, as used by the Bene Geneseret, is used as a DNA genetic and consciousness/sentience enhancement. This allows these awakened/illuminated females to go back into their genetic (astral Akashic) records of their ancestral lineage spice-enlightened female consciousnesses/sentience - as a real sentient-to-sentient encounter. Somewhat considered god-consciousness or cosmic-consciousness, better said as -sentience.
Not directly mentioned, but these theosis-evolved (or overdosed spice use can have) Mahdi-like Dune prophets with their own same multi-generational sentiences, that can overwhelm them, or also have such personal encounters, as much as we would say being possessed, demonaics, multiple personalities. Such would be the Harkonnen possessed (or demonaic) spirits driving them to such continual dark intentions (power madness, financial lust, ...).
Im a Mslim, I watched Dune 2 few days ago and I shocked when they says Mahdi and lisan al ghaib.. How they show the Mahdi is almost equal to Islam version of Mahdi.
Maybe the producer learn about the Mahdi and he find it interesting to put it in Novel as Dune version of Mahdi.
Anyway the story is great and I love the movie
The producer didn't add anything, the book the movies are based on is over 50 years old now.
The author learned about Islam and started writing and he himself said it is based on the Middle East and Islam, as for Edward here he is edgy white man who knows Islam is against his people
@ahmadfrhan5265 Bro wtf did I do lmao I was just saying the producer didn't add any Islamic elements to the story since the books already had them.
why even comment on the video if you didn't even watch it? religious zealots are so irritating
From what I recall (I read only the first book many years ago), there are not a lot of direct allusions to Judaism or Jewish culture in Dune (although many Arabic terms have Hebrew cognates, like ruh/ruah). But the term "Kwisatz Haderach" seems to be plucked from Kabbalistic or Hasidic tradition. In Hebrew the term is Kefitzat HaDerekh and means "jumping the path." Certain spiritual masters were said to be able to instantly transport themselves to a far-distant place. I suppose you could call it a "quantum leap."
Thanks for this and thanks to the patrons of this channel.
Thanks again for such an accessible, informative and thoughtful perspective on an interpretation of the expression of spiritualism. ie: our experience of meaning.
Frank Herbert of Dune legend, like George Lucas of Star Wars legend, used all of the many Joseph Campbell mythology and legend topics into a massively-intense written tapestry of a million years of human existence. Such would be comparable to Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey, King Arthur, Bhagavad Gita, etc.
Herbert is very difficult to start and read, if one doesn't have this basic knowledge, as it literally mind-alters one's concepts in understanding this whole world of existence, based on so many different modes of thoughts and concepts. But one, like me, having read all of his (and his son's) Dune books, once mind-warped, you never want to stop reading all of the many Mater's level of intricately written plots, twists, counter-plots, conspiracies, ... that make Agatha Christie's or John Le Carre's books look like Bachelor and High School written levels.
As a Muslim and an Arab when I was watching the movie I was blown away, the religion and political events were so precise to what I grew up reading
But can we stop pagan cresent moon symbol for islam?
No. It's a pagan symbol for a pagan religon.
15:33 the short story behind the OCB is as fascinating as it is (to me at least) comedic. Idk if every publishing has the story in the back of the book like mine but its a good read either before or after as it helps give a layer of liveliness to the Universe of Dune.
You mentioned all religions change over time, I would disagree, well, maybe 90% right. Islam has never changed and has stayed true to its principles, and will remain so. The beauty of it is that is has become more accessible.
But yeah, Dune was awesome! Felt authentic, even though it just fantasy.
One of the quirky religious details in the later books of the Dune series was that unlike every other religion, Judaism has persisted in a quite orthodox manner (and become rather secretive as a survival strategy).
In Holy Quran 2:261,And remember when Abraham said, ‘My Lord, show me how Thou givest life to the dead.’ He said, ‘Hast thou not believe?’ He said, ‘Yes, but I ask this so that my heart may be at rest.’ He answered, ‘Take four birds and make them attached to thyself. Then put each of them on a hill; then call them; they will come to thee in haste. And know that Allah is Mighty and Wise.’
Besides the afterlife, there is reference to 4 nations that shall rise and fall in ways know to Allah:
1. Nabi Musa was a Great law- bearing Prophet sent for the tribes of Israel with commandments and verities of wisdom that was suited for the Children of Israel at that stage of spiritual and physical requirements.
2. Prophet Isa (Jesus’ peace be upon Him) was the Messiah sent by God to guide the various Tribes of Israel according to the true teachings of the Torah and with the Gospel. He came about 1300 years after Prophet Musa.
3. The Holy Prophet Muhammed is the Last Great law -bearing prophet sent for the whole of mankind with blessings of spiritual guidance and signaling physical/ economic/ secular/technological blessings.
4. The Promised Messiah Nabi Ahmad was sent by God to guide people to the true teachings of the Holy Quran. In the time of the Promised Messiah there are various spiritual blessings and signaling physical/secular/economic/technological blessings. He arrived about 1300 years after the Holy Prophet.
I kept on hearing about the "Mahdi" in Dune. Now I know why 👍
Bro I see you everywhere fighting with Andhabhakt. ❤ from Bangladesh
@@zitka123 bhai ami bangladeshi 💖
The funniest thing about the Dune movies is that Muslims think the movie is glorifying aspects of Islam, when it's actually the complete opposite.
Most Muslims have low IQ due to inbreeding from polyamory. There is not one Muslim I have spoken to that has any logical reasoning. Most of them cannot follow logic and make many fallacy mistakes.
Small critique on the example of Jesus as a innovative messiah. Jesus didn’t innovate, he didn’t challenge the authority of the Pharisees, or even the traditions, Jesus himself was a theological traditionalist/conservative. He challenged elevating the oral law as being equal with the true law the written scriptures, he also condemned the Pharisees (some of them) for their hypocrisy.
Jesus even often quotes the Torah. As he said he didn’t come to destroy the law but to fulfill it, or bring it to its intended completion.
And then he refuses to execute the law.
@@adamnesico How so?
@@justchilling704 The adulteress episode.
@@adamnesico Well that why I pointed out that Jesus is a theological conservative, meaning he held to the original teaching and interpretation. The mosaic law never gave a literal command to stone anyone for committing adultery, this was never the intended interpretation. Rather the mosaic law gave general idealized principles for local communities to live by, the local judge or judges would determine how affairs are to be handled.
A good example of this is King David, and Hosea, in neither case was stoning for extra marital affairs even considered. And frankly this attitude is nothing unique to Torah you see it all over the place in near eastern civil law codes they all work on principle and aren’t to be taken hyper literal in everything they mention.
The background music you have had in this video, seriously it is the music that keeps you watching this video.
"Male Bene Gesserit also had this ability [other memory], but they lost it."
No they fucking didn't, where the hell did you get that idea?
Phew. Relax. It’ll be ok.
Please do a video on Henri Corbin.