riding a TT bike! If you ride a lot alone, there's nothing that can beat it on speed and comfort. If you just have a normal road-bike, then just getting as low as possible is the thing with 90° at the elbow. But honestly, not many riders can hold that for more than 5min, if that
@@pl4free I can't hold the hands-on-hoods forearm-level position for even half a minute. My core has never been decent. But this position is fun while it lasted.
Wheels and investing with some research on a good handlebar. The first points of "air contact" are the most important ones. Vision Metron 5D ACR 3K was my choice.
@@OUTDOORS55Criticising so it makes the viewer‘s experience better isn’t really complaining, it’s helping a channel to keep the viewers and not scare them away.
If your triceps hurt when riding in the aero-hoods position, it's not your triceps that need work. It's your core. You shouldn't actually have much weight on your hands, even in an extreme position.
I absolutely prefer your videos where it's more people chatting instead of taking turns reading from the script. They are so much more engaging and feel much more natural.
Small mistake at 8:08, aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of speed, but the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag goes up with the cube of speed (Since power is force*speed and in this case the force is the aerodynamic drag)
very sensible sum up...but life is not a wind tunnel. One omission is the adjustment of the seat angle in order accommodate a deeper position. As a rule of thumb: for every cm the stem goes down the saddle can move 0.5 forward. this results in 75-75.5 cm seat post angle -for most riders with reasonable flexibility -both for riding aero on the hoods and in the drops. This will put you back near a horizontal and catlike 'pro' position without out the added strain on the hips, and allow you to hold the position longer.
Echoing some of the comments - a great realistic take on aero. I wouldn’t be convinced of any of the upgrades except when I replace my helmet. I ride tops, hoods and drops like I imagine most riders. And my ‘testing’ shows the more fun I have on the bike the faster I feel - sometimes even a top 10 finish in my head 😆
If you point the aerobar upward, you have more gain than pointing down . That means if you put more stem spacer , spend more time in aerohood position, you would have more gains than slamming the stem and staying more often just in the hoods. This would be in line with what Peak Torque has mentioned in his videos. Instead of lowering the stack, increse it, but streamline your position.
The reason angling the bars up saves watts isn't because of height, it's because your hands get closer to your face and you get into more of a down hill ski tuck position which is more aero.
Great video! Best aero benefits for me… aside from a tighter fitting bib and jersey, aero helmet is riding holding the brakes hoods and resting bottom of forearms on the bar tops. For me the downside of this position is neck strain from trying to look up to see where I am going.
@@behb3425 tried but felt too high. I have short legs and long torso, difficult bike fit. I need to work on my lower back, pelvis and neck flexibility.
Great video as it shows how misleading aero claims are. We are often led to believe skinsuits are the be all and end all but as you highlight it depends on the skinsuit and your own body shape... The same is said for framesets person A maybe more aero on the same frame than person B. Unless you're willing to pay for the testing yourself it's a gamble. The testing at 35kph was also more realistic to most club riders... Well done 👍
In fact, the best cost effective aero upgrade for people who haven't optimized their position is a bunch of stems. In order to be comfortable in the aero hoods position, you need a relatively long stem, as is evident from the professional peloton where many use 140mm stems and beyond. You need a number of stems in order to progressively adapt to an optimized position. Back in the day, I was using a Look Ergostem which allowed for freedom of adjustment. This is why integrated cockpits are bad and actually less aero in many cases. For an average rider who hasn't fully optimized his position, a slammed stem is indicative of an incorrect setup, because it removes the margin of adjustment.
This is way over-simplistic. The human body is extremely complex and all the angles on a bike are inter-related. It’s not just about playing around with stems. The pros ride slammed very long stems because they are prepared to sacrifice all comfort for aero performance and they have someone to give them a 1 hour massage every day. This bears very little relevance to 95% of most cyclists. In fact slammed stems have shown to be distinctly in aero for normal people… look at TT bike position.
@@marcdaniels9079 if you're dedicated you're still better with adjutment than no adjustment. Even if you go to a pro bike fitter will you be happy swapping that 600$ integrated bar and paying the 100$ rerouting job ?
A $1000 disc/trispoke is the best money I've ever spent. With disc brakes it'll never wear out, and it's so fast it'll pay for itself completely in food savings in a few years.
@@thepatternforms859 only 400g penalty but when I can build a 6.7kg bike for £4k and UCI minimum weight is 6.8kg, I wonder what wrong with disc over rim
@@mlee6050 when racing iron man and other Tri races rim breaks are always better. Lighter, faster, and easier to work on. This is why the rim break bikes are so popular. Disc breaks provide better stopping power but that is it
11:43 How many watts does an out-of-round tire cost? Not sure if the tire was mounted poorly or just isn't round, but you clearly can see an issue if you play the video at 0.25 speed.
Depends how out of round it is. Effectively you are climbing and descending that amount every wheel rotation with the amount of loading on that wheel. Going up and down is always less efficient than riding on the flat.
I think you missed the TT bars watt saving compared to the upright control position. If just using the bent elbows on the hoods saves 22 watts, then the TT bars will save 28 watts over the control. That's huge.
i've always wondered.... everyone fusses over aero socks, sock height regulations, blah blah blah.... but what is stopping people from wearing bib tights or leg covers? we have thin lycra arm covers already. just need ones for legs without the fleece. there is no rules in the uci saying you can't wear long bibs. we see riders using them in some races.... plus i figured there is more space for sponsor logos!!
Covering the knee has shown to be slower than a set up with long bib shorts and very long socks at most speeds and yaws relevant to cycling… but this varied between riders, and the differences are small
ARTICLE 1.3.026 “When competing, all riders shall wear a jersey with sleeves and a pair of shorts, possibly in the form of a one-piece skinsuit. By shorts it is understood that these are shorts that come above the knee." From the UCI rulebook. So technically bib tights are banned. Not sure leg warmers are allowed or if it's ever been enforced though
I would really be interested in the real differences between say a tarmac and an ethos. Or similar aero vs round tube bike. Also I would love if you tested Aero drop bars, shallow carbon wheels maybe around 30mm compared to 60+ mm deep wheels. I would also love for you guys to test more positions like the “turtle head” bringing your elbows in. Just some ideas.
Aerodynamics are the last thing I worry about. Surviving, loose tarmac, potholes and cracks that can swallow even the deepest rim are unfortunately the main priorities where I ride.
That's why my road bike is catching dust while I enjoy going slower on my endurance bikepacking MTB. Being able to drive on any surface and using trails instead of roads is so much more delightful. I don't need to pray that traffic is kind to me every time I take my bike for a spin
forget about marginal gains by aerodynamics and invest in maximal gains by good old PEDs. Most cost effective upgrade I did. You would be surprised how many amateurs are on gear ;)
Drops is more aero than the hoods. This has been tested...just not in this video. The forearms on tops is probably the most aero, just like the praying mantis is most aero in aerobars/tt position.
@@MountainVisions Do you mean that Drops > Hoods for any position or Hoods forearm > Drops and Drops > Hoods If normally used without resting forearms on the handlebars?
It would have been really interesting what watts saving are there moving from roval alpinists 33 deep rim to there rapides or even hunts own range. I feel that’s what most will be debating. People that are box sections are most likely running rim brake bikes and prefer running alloy rims for other reasons such as breaking performance. I bet a speed suit would be a better all round buy compared to deep section wheels at that point. We all seem to think 33-40mm wheels seem to offer the best overall compromise between handling and speed
Excelent video; a refreshing change to have a lack of commercialism and instead address the reality that our bodies are 70-80% of total drag. And the two way discussion felt more comfortable and easier on the ear than a GCN video (they talk in a constant 'announcement' tone).
The aero socks thing. They are great even for club riders. Did you ever notice that they don't seem to slip down when the pro's wear them? The trick is to apply rubbing alcohol to the lower legs where the silicone grippers will rest. THEN apply a spray sunscreen to the legs. Works for me every time.
£30 for a pair of socks that saves an amount of watts within the error margin of the measurement tools used is great for club riders? Get a grip on reality man.
Never mind the triceps, that aero position is murder on the neck (if you want to see where you're going that is). It was noticeable that he kept his head down looking at the front wheel a lot. I use 36cm bars to stop shoulder ache. Once you get used to them they're fine.
From my experience testing in that tunnel, I’d be surprised if you can measure a 3W difference at 35kph wind speed with all the large eddies at those speeds. Even on mannequins, shedding at low speeds would reduce repeatability to 2%, which is well above some of the differences quoted here.
Isn't wind tunnel precision just a function of time? Even if all the uncontrollable butterfly effects caused singular measurements to vary +/- 100 watts, surely after a thousand measurements you'd see if the average drag changed.
It looked like he started with fairly tall ribbed regular socks. It may be that the non-aero socks were pretty good and got most of the benefits vs. short socks and bare skin.
Hi Chris, we tested Rule 28 aero socks. We would have seen larger wattage savings if we've tested at a higher speed, but of course we made a decision to test at the slower speed in this case. Given how cheap they are in absolute terms, I'll still wear them for races / time trials - where every little helps - but otherwise maybe not worth it. Cheers for watching! Simon
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anywhere that says (or shows) what the "control" helmet was. He was wearing the Lazer helmet the whole time in the video so it is unclear what it is being tested against.
After re-watching, it appears he is wearing some "non-aero" model of Lazer helmet in a couple of split-second shots in the intro, but I couldn't make out what model it is.
@@bikeradar But for real, the bike media world needs to provide more level-headed advice to consumers. Bike companies are always touting impressive percentage figures that are unsubstantiated by evidence, or they are tested at 50km/h.
Tried toeing in the shifters but they made my elbows flared out and became less aero!! Keeping my elbows in means bending my wrists for long periods and feels totally unnatural.
Quick question about tires. At 11:45, it looks like your tire is not true (either laterally, radially, or both). Did you notice if this led to increased drag or an increase in rolling resistance? Occasionally I'll have the same problem with my tires. Sometimes the bead isn't set perfectly on a tubeless setup and sometimes the tire seems to have imperfections from the factory. I've always wondered if there was a significant aero or rolling resistance penalty.
Reg the aero position with your underarms on the bars you said your triceps burn and hurt. This is because your upper body weight is resting on this underarm and the triceps are taking the weight. In order to get rid of this pain make sure the elbow is on a vertical line with your ear or ahead of it. If behind there will be a cantilever effect hence the burning triceps. To achieve this move your saddle slightly back and your hoods slightly forward on the drop of the bar. You could add a longer stem too. With the upper body load properly supported the cantilever of your head and shoulders should be less and the pain in your triceps alleviated.
Thanks for the good advice Bart. I use this position a lot for ultra distance, and very small tweaks like this make all the difference for endurance. I also find the saddle cut out it's crucial and doing yoga forward bends. Cheers
@@Lenser I have another bike with 40cm bars and feel fine while riding it, so 2cm less with slightly inwards angled shifters should be fine. They are also flared out in the drops to I think 43cm
@@Lenser naa this only becomes an issue if your elbows are nearly touching eachother like on a TT bike. I run 38 on my road and gravel bike but an 36 on my commuter. Don't have any issues with breaving or handling. I only had to geht used to the handlig on steep climbs out of the saddle on the 36. But I completely illiminated neck pain with the narrower bar =)
As an update since I got a notification: I do feel faster but my bike fitter told me I'll feel the too narrow position in my shoulders which I do! Will still keep it since on the flat routes it is nice but for my longer distance/climbing focused bike Id do a 42cm bar again
I need a reupload with a counter in the corner for every mention of "watt", also including every instance of possibly, but unlikely unintended puns (mostly "what") :D
It seems a bit off. Maybe I ride with a tail wind more often than what I realize, but for me to maintain 35 kph on a flat road, I use between 140 to 150 Watts to hold that speed, while riding on the hoods.
@@Al.2 That's why I said, maybe I ride with a tailwind more that what I realise. But I'll fetch the numbers from an upcoming ride and see if I'm way off.
@@sand9577 I mean even 216W is unlikely. On a flat loop with no wind that will be about 260W (on the hoods) to go 35 kph and still not easy to achieve.
We tested the 54s - if you're interested in Simon's full review of that wheelset, you can read it on our website; www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/wheels/wheel-sets/hunt-54-aerodynamicist-carbon-disc-wheelset-review/
Fascinating topic, great testing. But oh God! So many words, and not a single table to provide the viewer with a quick, efficient, visual summary of the changes? Guys, please, this is not a podcast, please use the full power of the media you are using!
Nope... I can't sustain 35 kph on a flat road. I can achieve it, and ride maybe for a while, but I can't sustain it for any reasonable amount of time. For me, sustainable speed is more like 25 kph. Still, nice video.
Great analyses, but it seems that the result is bit biased as the savings will get diminish the more you optimize. I.e. you test the skinsuit and then keep it on, and then test aero wheels and keep those on, and then test helmet, seating etc. It would be better to compare to the same basis point. that is start with the no upgrade setup and then only changing one upgrade factor do the test and change back to basic setup and then test another upgrade factor. But great analyses which gives a good indication of the best improvements 👍
Very good test. Some relatively fancy aass carbon road wheelset vs. Mavic Aksium (not Askium): 10.6W saved over 216W at 35 km/h. At 30 km/h (assuming a constant CdA) the saving would be roughly 7.8W over 159W, while at 25 km/h it would be about 5.4W over 110W. In no universe are those savings relevant to the average casually riding bloke with a specific FTP of under 3.0 W/kg. This, of course, won't stop middle aged dentists to join the aero malarkey bandwagon and to spend silly amounts of money on aero wheelsets and framesets in order to have the best possible bike to their "L'Etape by Tour de France" long awaited oh-let's-call-it-race. None of those will save them from barely finishing the ride riddled with cramps and back pain, they'll still get dominated by some local dudes riding 10+ year old aluminium bikes on 2x10 mechanical 105, but at least they've earned the bragging rights. Oh, and don't forget having to switch to disc brakes and electronic groupsets to achieve such performance.
Were the spokes on your Aksiums round or flat? Seems like there are maybe different versions of Aksiums out there based on what I can find online, and knowing this would make it easier to compare to other wheelsets.
Did he keep saying Askium rather than Aksium, or do I need a hearing test? I've had those wheels on my bike since I bought it in 2009. Yeah, I should probably upgrade them...
3:16 216w for 35kph? There must be some variables not being taken into account, because I promise you 216w is not getting anyone 35kph unless they're on a full tt rig
Hi, 66kg here and very agressif position on my Sl7 with +60mm rims. When i push 216w avg i push easily 35kph on flat routes with 0 wind. So positions and fitness are the best (free) aero upgrades 🙂.
The point in different skinsuits is important. I got a Gobik one because it's cheaper than getting a maillot and bib short separately, if I'm also getting any aero gains then even better.
Wait, 216 watts to hold 35km/h on a upright position? Are u kidding me? Am I the only one, that wouldn't come close to that efficiency in real life conditions? That is absurd. I definitly can ride much longer than one hour holding 216 watts. When I tried to hold 35 km/h as long as I can I lasted like 47 mins. What I suggest are more like 270-290 watts. (Would make sense, since my indoor best, was 270 watts for an hour. Yes I know, that is not the same kind of effort, but it shows the direction) Can anyone confirm, or am I that unaerodynamic on my bike :/ ?
I realise that for the general cyclists, it’s less about being aero , than buying new and cool cycling toys and gadgets to have fun. Because let’s be frank, unless you’re some pro cyclist riding in the TDF peloton, cycling is just a hobby for you to spend money on (while trying to stay healthy). You could argue that losing weight, stem slamming is free, but that’s not why you took this up as a hobby for. If it was truly fitness that you were after, you would just go jogging, or ride only on a trainer for maximum efficiency.
Simon's a keen chain-waxer already! Does cost a little more than simply optimising your body position though 😉 Here's our guide to waxing chains if you're keen to see more; www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/how-to-wax-a-chain/
What is your favourite aero upgrade? Helmet, Wheels, or something else? 🚴♀💨
Home Yoga practice! Its free basically. And how else can we get my spine into an aero shape!
riding a TT bike! If you ride a lot alone, there's nothing that can beat it on speed and comfort. If you just have a normal road-bike, then just getting as low as possible is the thing with 90° at the elbow. But honestly, not many riders can hold that for more than 5min, if that
@@pl4free I can't hold the hands-on-hoods forearm-level position for even half a minute. My core has never been decent. But this position is fun while it lasted.
Wheels and helmet
Wheels and investing with some research on a good handlebar. The first points of "air contact" are the most important ones. Vision Metron 5D ACR 3K was my choice.
I don't think this video was improved by the music in the background, I would prefer to be able to hear what they say clearly instead.
Agree
Agree a million percent. But all documentaries have moronic music I'm afraid
Ah the days of complaining about free content 🤦♂️
@@OUTDOORS55Criticising so it makes the viewer‘s experience better isn’t really complaining, it’s helping a channel to keep the viewers and not scare them away.
It's there to hide noise
If your triceps hurt when riding in the aero-hoods position, it's not your triceps that need work. It's your core. You shouldn't actually have much weight on your hands, even in an extreme position.
Or lower the saddle because it's too high
@@keoki777 or raise your bars because your saddle is the right height, but the bars are too low relative to the saddle
I absolutely prefer your videos where it's more people chatting instead of taking turns reading from the script. They are so much more engaging and feel much more natural.
Haha shots fired at GCN lol
Trolling gcn
still scripted...better actors?
Small mistake at 8:08, aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of speed, but the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag goes up with the cube of speed (Since power is force*speed and in this case the force is the aerodynamic drag)
Wait can you explain that again? What i understand is that the ‘drag force’ goes up with speed^2 so how does it go to ^3?
@@ingmarneple6072 because you're moving faster and power is force*speed so this make K*speed²*speed = Kspeedcubed.
I WAS LITERALLY GOING TO COMMENT ABOUT THAT :D
@@sportnation8885literally!
no , power is force * time, if you going faster due to aero gains time is less , therefore power, is less
very sensible sum up...but life is not a wind tunnel. One omission is the adjustment of the seat angle in order accommodate a deeper position. As a rule of thumb: for every cm the stem goes down the saddle can move 0.5 forward. this results in 75-75.5 cm seat post angle -for most riders with reasonable flexibility -both for riding aero on the hoods and in the drops. This will put you back near a horizontal and catlike 'pro' position without out the added strain on the hips, and allow you to hold the position longer.
75 cm angle? What do you mean by that? 75 degrees?
@@cameronALR6 I stand corrected
Echoing some of the comments - a great realistic take on aero. I wouldn’t be convinced of any of the upgrades except when I replace my helmet. I ride tops, hoods and drops like I imagine most riders. And my ‘testing’ shows the more fun I have on the bike the faster I feel - sometimes even a top 10 finish in my head 😆
If you point the aerobar upward, you have more gain than pointing down . That means if you put more stem spacer , spend more time in aerohood position, you would have more gains than slamming the stem and staying more often just in the hoods. This would be in line with what Peak Torque has mentioned in his videos. Instead of lowering the stack, increse it, but streamline your position.
nah that aint it
Yes, something like an Obree "semi superman" position. You would need more reach too. It's also harder on upper body muscle.
The reason angling the bars up saves watts isn't because of height, it's because your hands get closer to your face and you get into more of a down hill ski tuck position which is more aero.
The aero position gets easier, but you have to practice it. I practice it on every ride, and nowadays I can hold it indefinitely without fatigue.
Great video! Best aero benefits for me… aside from a tighter fitting bib and jersey, aero helmet is riding holding the brakes hoods and resting bottom of forearms on the bar tops. For me the downside of this position is neck strain from trying to look up to see where I am going.
try to increase the bar height
@@behb3425 tried but felt too high. I have short legs and long torso, difficult bike fit. I need to work on my lower back, pelvis and neck flexibility.
@@wss327 it is always a good idea to work on your core muscles and do stretches.
Didn't do a drag co-efficient on the drops^^......
The aero position is actually comfortable. You just need to remember it and of course be flexible🙂💪🏻🚴🏻♂️👍🏼
Thanks for the real cyclist approach to "aero gains".
position and fitness, then wheels, then clothing, then everything else
"Position, *shoes* and fitness..."
Great video as it shows how misleading aero claims are. We are often led to believe skinsuits are the be all and end all but as you highlight it depends on the skinsuit and your own body shape...
The same is said for framesets person A maybe more aero on the same frame than person B. Unless you're willing to pay for the testing yourself it's a gamble. The testing at 35kph was also more realistic to most club riders... Well done 👍
In fact, the best cost effective aero upgrade for people who haven't optimized their position is a bunch of stems. In order to be comfortable in the aero hoods position, you need a relatively long stem, as is evident from the professional peloton where many use 140mm stems and beyond. You need a number of stems in order to progressively adapt to an optimized position. Back in the day, I was using a Look Ergostem which allowed for freedom of adjustment. This is why integrated cockpits are bad and actually less aero in many cases. For an average rider who hasn't fully optimized his position, a slammed stem is indicative of an incorrect setup, because it removes the margin of adjustment.
People prefer design over performance, that's why integrated sells so well. Also good marketing speech.
This is way over-simplistic. The human body is extremely complex and all the angles on a bike are inter-related. It’s not just about playing around with stems. The pros ride slammed very long stems because they are prepared to sacrifice all comfort for aero performance and they have someone to give them a 1 hour massage every day. This bears very little relevance to 95% of most cyclists. In fact slammed stems have shown to be distinctly in aero for normal people… look at TT bike position.
@@marcdaniels9079 if you're dedicated you're still better with adjutment than no adjustment. Even if you go to a pro bike fitter will you be happy swapping that 600$ integrated bar and paying the 100$ rerouting job ?
A $1000 disc/trispoke is the best money I've ever spent. With disc brakes it'll never wear out, and it's so fast it'll pay for itself completely in food savings in a few years.
Disc breaks are slower than rim breaks. Rim breaks are simpler and lighter.
@@thepatternforms859tough to take advice from someone who can't spell brakes.
@@thepatternforms859 only 400g penalty but when I can build a 6.7kg bike for £4k and UCI minimum weight is 6.8kg, I wonder what wrong with disc over rim
@@sampangolin calm down school teacher what I say is true
@@mlee6050 when racing iron man and other Tri races rim breaks are always better. Lighter, faster, and easier to work on. This is why the rim break bikes are so popular. Disc breaks provide better stopping power but that is it
11:43 How many watts does an out-of-round tire cost? Not sure if the tire was mounted poorly or just isn't round, but you clearly can see an issue if you play the video at 0.25 speed.
I noticed the same thing. Sometimes I have this issue with my tires and I've always wondered how much drag or resistance it actually causes.
None for CDA, some for rolling resistance/comfort.
Depends how out of round it is. Effectively you are climbing and descending that amount every wheel rotation with the amount of loading on that wheel. Going up and down is always less efficient than riding on the flat.
I wouldn’t scoff at “only” 3W. Those small gains can really add up!
I think you missed the TT bars watt saving compared to the upright control position.
If just using the bent elbows on the hoods saves 22 watts, then the TT bars will save 28 watts over the control. That's huge.
i've always wondered.... everyone fusses over aero socks, sock height regulations, blah blah blah.... but what is stopping people from wearing bib tights or leg covers? we have thin lycra arm covers already. just need ones for legs without the fleece. there is no rules in the uci saying you can't wear long bibs. we see riders using them in some races.... plus i figured there is more space for sponsor logos!!
Tradition will probably be the biggest factor standing in the way of full-body speedsuits
Covering the knee has shown to be slower than a set up with long bib shorts and very long socks at most speeds and yaws relevant to cycling… but this varied between riders, and the differences are small
ARTICLE 1.3.026
“When competing, all riders shall wear a jersey with sleeves and a pair of shorts, possibly
in the form of a one-piece skinsuit. By shorts it is understood that these are shorts that
come above the knee."
From the UCI rulebook.
So technically bib tights are banned. Not sure leg warmers are allowed or if it's ever been enforced though
Bib shorts where banded in the early 2000s
Absolutely love the independent data! Please do more tests like this!
Thanks Elouan, we're always up for doing more testing. Is there anything you'd like us to look at?
I would really be interested in the real differences between say a tarmac and an ethos. Or similar aero vs round tube bike. Also I would love if you tested Aero drop bars, shallow carbon wheels maybe around 30mm compared to 60+ mm deep wheels. I would also love for you guys to test more positions like the “turtle head” bringing your elbows in. Just some ideas.
Great take on aero! Thank you!
Aerodynamics are the last thing I worry about. Surviving, loose tarmac, potholes and cracks that can swallow even the deepest rim are unfortunately the main priorities where I ride.
AHH yes, another Englishman, wonderful isn't it? I just got back from cycling in France, it's just embarrassing what we have in comparison.
That's why my road bike is catching dust while I enjoy going slower on my endurance bikepacking MTB. Being able to drive on any surface and using trails instead of roads is so much more delightful. I don't need to pray that traffic is kind to me every time I take my bike for a spin
@@paulwood4142 In my city the roads and bikeways require a gravel bike with tires at medium pressure to ride more or less comfortably.
forget about marginal gains by aerodynamics and invest in maximal gains by good old PEDs. Most cost effective upgrade I did. You would be surprised how many amateurs are on gear ;)
what peds you on then ? oO'
Dude screw that cheating shit! Plus it might affect health.
Properly fitting the rear tyre on the basic wheels might save some watts too. That thing is wobbling all over the place at 6:41.
Seems that riding on the drops isn’t too popular these days for aero gains. Unless I missed it, was the drops position even tested?
Drops is more aero than the hoods. This has been tested...just not in this video. The forearms on tops is probably the most aero, just like the praying mantis is most aero in aerobars/tt position.
@@MountainVisions Do you mean that Drops > Hoods for any position or Hoods forearm > Drops and Drops > Hoods If normally used without resting forearms on the handlebars?
It would have been really interesting what watts saving are there moving from roval alpinists 33 deep rim to there rapides or even hunts own range. I feel that’s what most will be debating. People that are box sections are most likely running rim brake bikes and prefer running alloy rims for other reasons such as breaking performance.
I bet a speed suit would be a better all round buy compared to deep section wheels at that point. We all seem to think 33-40mm wheels seem to offer the best overall compromise between handling and speed
Well, shoe covers can help, positioning on the hoods tucking in your elbows is noticeable.
Excelent video; a refreshing change to have a lack of commercialism and instead address the reality that our bodies are 70-80% of total drag.
And the two way discussion felt more comfortable and easier on the ear than a GCN video (they talk in a constant 'announcement' tone).
The Rule 28 areo socks didnt even stay up long enough to test them haha
Narrower bars made climbing and sprinting more difficult, I just couldn't get that leverage needed to really crank out power.
Would be nice to see a wind tunnel series of independent reviews of: Helmets, skin suits, socks, handle bars, wheels......etc
You can always save 50 watts for free: your position. Graeme Obree's position was 50 watts faster than his competitors...
The aero socks thing. They are great even for club riders. Did you ever notice that they don't seem to slip down when the pro's wear them? The trick is to apply rubbing alcohol to the lower legs where the silicone grippers will rest. THEN apply a spray sunscreen to the legs. Works for me every time.
£30 for a pair of socks that saves an amount of watts within the error margin of the measurement tools used is great for club riders?
Get a grip on reality man.
Amazing, thank you very much.
Thanks for commenting, glad you enjoyed!
Isn’t there something to be said about the reduced “rotational drag” with the deeper wheels? I don’t believe the wind tunnel can pick that up.
Never mind the triceps, that aero position is murder on the neck (if you want to see where you're going that is). It was noticeable that he kept his head down looking at the front wheel a lot.
I use 36cm bars to stop shoulder ache. Once you get used to them they're fine.
Riding on the drops?
I am an old guy back in the seventies we used to race in the drops -
I'm thinking of upgrading the forks on my downhill bike. Rarely touching the brakes helps with speed also.
Yes, the brake is a thief.
What was the model of the Hunt wheels used? They didn’t mention this….
From my experience testing in that tunnel, I’d be surprised if you can measure a 3W difference at 35kph wind speed with all the large eddies at those speeds. Even on mannequins, shedding at low speeds would reduce repeatability to 2%, which is well above some of the differences quoted here.
Isn't wind tunnel precision just a function of time? Even if all the uncontrollable butterfly effects caused singular measurements to vary +/- 100 watts, surely after a thousand measurements you'd see if the average drag changed.
I wonder what aerosocks you used, according to Josh Poertner from Silca it should be about 5 w
It looked like he started with fairly tall ribbed regular socks. It may be that the non-aero socks were pretty good and got most of the benefits vs. short socks and bare skin.
5w saving is probably best socks vs worse at 45kph
Hi Chris, we tested Rule 28 aero socks. We would have seen larger wattage savings if we've tested at a higher speed, but of course we made a decision to test at the slower speed in this case.
Given how cheap they are in absolute terms, I'll still wear them for races / time trials - where every little helps - but otherwise maybe not worth it. Cheers for watching! Simon
@@bikeradar Dylan Johnson tested the same socks at the same speed here and he says they saved 4.8 watts th-cam.com/video/N2_dey84MKY/w-d-xo.html
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anywhere that says (or shows) what the "control" helmet was. He was wearing the Lazer helmet the whole time in the video so it is unclear what it is being tested against.
After re-watching, it appears he is wearing some "non-aero" model of Lazer helmet in a couple of split-second shots in the intro, but I couldn't make out what model it is.
Wind tunnel test ALL THE THINGS!
THIS IS THE SPIRIT
@@bikeradar But for real, the bike media world needs to provide more level-headed advice to consumers. Bike companies are always touting impressive percentage figures that are unsubstantiated by evidence, or they are tested at 50km/h.
Tried toeing in the shifters but they made my elbows flared out and became less aero!! Keeping my elbows in means bending my wrists for long periods and feels totally unnatural.
Quick question about tires. At 11:45, it looks like your tire is not true (either laterally, radially, or both). Did you notice if this led to increased drag or an increase in rolling resistance? Occasionally I'll have the same problem with my tires. Sometimes the bead isn't set perfectly on a tubeless setup and sometimes the tire seems to have imperfections from the factory. I've always wondered if there was a significant aero or rolling resistance penalty.
So should i buy 50 pairs of socks? To get 15 wats benefits?
Reg the aero position with your underarms on the bars you said your triceps burn and hurt. This is because your upper body weight is resting on this underarm and the triceps are taking the weight. In order to get rid of this pain make sure the elbow is on a vertical line with your ear or ahead of it. If behind there will be a cantilever effect hence the burning triceps. To achieve this move your saddle slightly back and your hoods slightly forward on the drop of the bar. You could add a longer stem too. With the upper body load properly supported the cantilever of your head and shoulders should be less and the pain in your triceps alleviated.
Ttanslated: "F*** over your whole bike fit for gains in this single position, used rarely"
Thanks for the good advice Bart. I use this position a lot for ultra distance, and very small tweaks like this make all the difference for endurance. I also find the saddle cut out it's crucial and doing yoga forward bends. Cheers
Are there special glasses to see upward when you're on aero position with your eyes looking down?
There are a few models that have been designed with this in mind. The Oakley Kato spring to mind
Good to know. No aero socks for me! I'll be working on my flexibility and body position instead.
I bought an aero road bike for only 450-500 bucks is it worth it it got 40mm rim and an carbon fork and 2x11 speed
Carbon Fiber Bacchetta recumbent...you will save some Aero Watts. 🙂
Thanks for the realistic setup. Great video!
I bought the same narrow handlebars for my bike to go from 42 to 38cm, looking forward to how the ride comfort will change.
@@Lenser I have another bike with 40cm bars and feel fine while riding it, so 2cm less with slightly inwards angled shifters should be fine. They are also flared out in the drops to I think 43cm
@@Lenser naa this only becomes an issue if your elbows are nearly touching eachother like on a TT bike. I run 38 on my road and gravel bike but an 36 on my commuter. Don't have any issues with breaving or handling. I only had to geht used to the handlig on steep climbs out of the saddle on the 36. But I completely illiminated neck pain with the narrower bar =)
@@Lenser That's what you call "fake news"....carry-over from years ago mountain bike guru creating niche to sell more handle bars.
As an update since I got a notification: I do feel faster but my bike fitter told me I'll feel the too narrow position in my shoulders which I do! Will still keep it since on the flat routes it is nice but for my longer distance/climbing focused bike Id do a 42cm bar again
That skinsuit is cut lower than Eva Longoria's gown at the Oscars.
What frame is that? May have written this twice 🎉
Did you measure riding on the drops?
I need a reupload with a counter in the corner for every mention of "watt", also including every instance of possibly, but unlikely unintended puns (mostly "what") :D
"What" was the final tally?
35 kph at 216 W in a relaxed position? That sounds quite efficient already, no?
It seems a bit off. Maybe I ride with a tail wind more often than what I realize, but for me to maintain 35 kph on a flat road, I use between 140 to 150 Watts to hold that speed, while riding on the hoods.
That sounds too good to be true.
@@Al.2 That's why I said, maybe I ride with a tailwind more that what I realise. But I'll fetch the numbers from an upcoming ride and see if I'm way off.
@@sand9577 I mean even 216W is unlikely. On a flat loop with no wind that will be about 260W (on the hoods) to go 35 kph and still not easy to achieve.
@@Al.2 it all depends on how big / tall the rider is. the more frontal area, the more watt needed to keep the same speed.
Really enjoyed this
where they the 44 or 54 hunt Aerodynamicist wheels?
We tested the 54s - if you're interested in Simon's full review of that wheelset, you can read it on our website; www.bikeradar.com/reviews/components/wheels/wheel-sets/hunt-54-aerodynamicist-carbon-disc-wheelset-review/
:) wind always from front nice never have this
How deep were the wheels?
Fascinating topic, great testing. But oh God! So many words, and not a single table to provide the viewer with a quick, efficient, visual summary of the changes? Guys, please, this is not a podcast, please use the full power of the media you are using!
So is cycling naked the best bang for the buck?
Lol.. fines might be costly..😂
Also note that these test assume laminar flow... which is a wrong assumption at 35km/h.. not valid until up to 60-80km/h
Hmm.... state your source/reasoning.
@@alan_davis Hambini.. aerospace aircraft engineer 🤷🏽♂️
Great videao! Thanks
Nope... I can't sustain 35 kph on a flat road. I can achieve it, and ride maybe for a while, but I can't sustain it for any reasonable amount of time. For me, sustainable speed is more like 25 kph. Still, nice video.
Great analyses, but it seems that the result is bit biased as the savings will get diminish the more you optimize.
I.e. you test the skinsuit and then keep it on, and then test aero wheels and keep those on, and then test helmet, seating etc.
It would be better to compare to the same basis point. that is start with the no upgrade setup and then only changing one upgrade factor do the test and change back to basic setup and then test another upgrade factor.
But great analyses which gives a good indication of the best improvements 👍
is that an aethos
But if the position is too aggressive you might suffer from back problems and will lead you to more expense for therapy
but they say that aero socks give bigger advantages (like 5W or more !) maybe you need better socks to test :p
Leaning over.
Very good test. Some relatively fancy aass carbon road wheelset vs. Mavic Aksium (not Askium): 10.6W saved over 216W at 35 km/h. At 30 km/h (assuming a constant CdA) the saving would be roughly 7.8W over 159W, while at 25 km/h it would be about 5.4W over 110W.
In no universe are those savings relevant to the average casually riding bloke with a specific FTP of under 3.0 W/kg. This, of course, won't stop middle aged dentists to join the aero malarkey bandwagon and to spend silly amounts of money on aero wheelsets and framesets in order to have the best possible bike to their "L'Etape by Tour de France" long awaited oh-let's-call-it-race. None of those will save them from barely finishing the ride riddled with cramps and back pain, they'll still get dominated by some local dudes riding 10+ year old aluminium bikes on 2x10 mechanical 105, but at least they've earned the bragging rights.
Oh, and don't forget having to switch to disc brakes and electronic groupsets to achieve such performance.
how did the film pictures on the pentax 6x7 come out?
Were the spokes on your Aksiums round or flat? Seems like there are maybe different versions of Aksiums out there based on what I can find online, and knowing this would make it easier to compare to other wheelsets.
Did have the Wheels the same Pressure and Tire??? In Silverstone come the Messure from the Ergo!?
Shaving?
Wtf are Mavic ASKIUMS? Aksiums have been around for many years. Shouldn't be difficult to get the name right.
What frame is that??
Aethos
Aero socks are just great, mine stay better then every normal sock😄
which ones do you use?
Which clip on to buy? Mine give neck pain. Too low/no adjustability
Did he keep saying Askium rather than Aksium, or do I need a hearing test? I've had those wheels on my bike since I bought it in 2009. Yeah, I should probably upgrade them...
3:16 216w for 35kph? There must be some variables not being taken into account, because I promise you 216w is not getting anyone 35kph unless they're on a full tt rig
Hi, 66kg here and very agressif position on my Sl7 with +60mm rims. When i push 216w avg i push easily 35kph on flat routes with 0 wind. So positions and fitness are the best (free) aero upgrades 🙂.
I'd be all in for a skinsuit, but with the long rides i like to do they need a poop chute.
The point in different skinsuits is important. I got a Gobik one because it's cheaper than getting a maillot and bib short separately, if I'm also getting any aero gains then even better.
Having less cadence also improving Aerodynamics
Yep, I suggest you stop pedalling.
Wait, 216 watts to hold 35km/h on a upright position? Are u kidding me? Am I the only one, that wouldn't come close to that efficiency in real life conditions? That is absurd. I definitly can ride much longer than one hour holding 216 watts. When I tried to hold 35 km/h as long as I can I lasted like 47 mins. What I suggest are more like 270-290 watts. (Would make sense, since my indoor best, was 270 watts for an hour. Yes I know, that is not the same kind of effort, but it shows the direction)
Can anyone confirm, or am I that unaerodynamic on my bike :/ ?
I realise that for the general cyclists, it’s less about being aero , than buying new and cool cycling toys and gadgets to have fun.
Because let’s be frank, unless you’re some pro cyclist riding in the TDF peloton, cycling is just a hobby for you to spend money on (while trying to stay healthy).
You could argue that losing weight, stem slamming is free, but that’s not why you took this up as a hobby for. If it was truly fitness that you were after, you would just go jogging, or ride only on a trainer for maximum efficiency.
So the best bang for buck upgrades are aero helmet and aero bars! And carbon wheels are an essential.
Even more gains than any of those equipment gains... and zero dollars.. get in a 1-2 inch lower tuck... lol...
I'd pay $$$ in physio bills!
Slightly off color grading?
Good video though!
Was the new blonde hairdo also aero related?
new job, new hair 😂
which brand are the socks?
will a 17 inch frame fit my son who is 5'11?
Actually, many, many people can save money and watts at the same time by buying less food 😋
Cheapest upgrade is hotwaxing your chain, saves 3 watts and more, shimano dura ace chain saves also some watts compared to others
Simon's a keen chain-waxer already! Does cost a little more than simply optimising your body position though 😉 Here's our guide to waxing chains if you're keen to see more; www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/how-to-wax-a-chain/
3 watts vs. a caked up with crap chain.... don't believe the hype.
Now what are you gonna' do with those saved Watts? Put them in a piggy bank?