HOW WOULD JOHN BONHAM SOUND TODAY? (Quantized)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- So how would John Bonham sound if Led Zeppelin came out in 2019? Would the Led Zeppelin sound be processed and quantized like all of the other contemporary rock music? Would there be the recognizable John Bonham drum sound and style? I try to answer that in this episode of Everything Music.
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I saw Bonham live in concert twice. Let me tell you he was an incredible force of nature behind the drum kit. You will never replace the passion and emotions of a live drummer with a computer.
Yesterday I saw a video about an AI generating art.. we are close to destruction anyway
"You will never replace the passion and emotions of a live drummer with a computer."
It will definitely happen at some point. Everything is quantifiable, especially motion and timing. Feed a bunch of live sessions to an AI and it will spit out something indistinguishable from the real thing.
That’s just boomer mentality. Use AI and you’ll realize you’re wrong
Or his scream n growling !
I totally agree with you on that!!!! 👍🏽👍🏽
Drummers: *pratices to a metronome for hundreds of hours trying to achieve the impossible task of perfect timekeeping*
Bonham: hold my 40 vodka and tonics
*climbs off ladder, puts down pallet of bricks, picks up drumsticks*
I literally just spit out my milk.... lol
Lmao
That guy could gulp such massive quantities of booze it was unreal. And still function!
@@fokeyjo Way I recall it? By the time I looked into things like that? Which was the late '80's onward? Bonham had been gulping down 'Screwdriver's( vodka& orange juice shots. I'm sure you've partook before) for 12 hours straight!
When it comes to drums there is this magical element called “groove” that all good drummers have. To me this video is scientific proof of the groove of John Bonham. Those slight variances off tempo are what give the song its feel. In other terms drummers choose based on the mood of a song to play slightly ahead of the beat or slightly behind the beat. Both clips are of the latter. And it’s those small human choices that lend to the feel of a groove or song. So good. Thanks for that experiment.
Could that also be described as, not super accurate at beat but great at meter ?
So very well said. Indeed those little variances truly make and define the groove.
I'm especially partial to hearing the snare get hit slightly behind beat. When it calls for it, of course, but there sure seems like many opportunities to pull that off now that we're shedding light on this cool little detail that many of us have certainly overlooked throughout the years - speaking of myself right now especially. :)
No that's just an excuse for bad drummers that are in famous bands so people won't admit they have poor timing, like Bonham.
Some imperfection can be good in drumming, yes, but only to a point...There are basic things like being able to accurately come down on the 1 of a bar that all professional musicians must be able to do without fail as it is fundamental to the very concepts of "tempo," "time signature," "structure." It just sounds very messy otherwise, like the garbage disposal
The 11th Commandment: "Thou shalt not quantize John Bonham"
SomeGingerDude
You forgot
Bonham chapter 1, verse 2
It's not written, it's a feel.
God actually decided to make that one the first commandment. Moses was like who tf is John Bonham? And God said "me"
Should be first commandment.
@@TerryT304 ONLY!
😆
I understand the advantages of using a click.. but man, i really like it when humans drum.
Hi Josh
Over production of music does seem to lose it's soul ( imperfect perfections if you will.)
That’s deep Man , love that 👍
Absolutely
JOSH!!!!! I'm writing this in December 2020, WHERE ARE YOU MAN!!?!?!?!?!?
I love how Bonham’s drumline in Fool in the Rain is so iconic that he didn’t even bother to tell us Zep Heads the name of the song lol
The moment it came in, my brain just filled in the piano riff almost as plain as I was just listening to the song.
I don’t think it’s fool in the rain, that song has way more fills and is much more recognizable, it may be a part I’m not thinking of but it’s definitely not the main riff
@@dylanharris9477 The second track used is Fool in the Rain. The first one, I believe was just a warm-up. They came from an audio clip of John Bonham's isolated drumming, which has been going around youtube a bit.
Yesss dat Purdee shuffle
@@dylanharris9477 it's definitely Fool in the Rain
Played this for my girlfriend and she said the quantized version “sounds like Imagine Dragons” (not as a compliment) i think she nailed it
She’s right haha!
I had Imagine Dragons in open browser tabs for ages and just checked that out and, geez, tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock. (Ironically the title was "It's Time".)
Then checked out more songs and they all seem to have the same problem.
Are they giving blowjobs to metronomes? (I guess that's what you would call metrosexual.)
@@RickBeato Hahahahahahaha
Every time a musician is quantized, an innocent baby animal dies.
it DOES
Things you should never do: You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't piss into the wind, you don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger and you don't quantize John Bonham.
Philip Santillan so true haha. Life lessons right here
Completely agree....🤘🏼👍🏼
🎶And you don't mess around with Jim🎶
haha!
Could be the best comment on the internet ever👍
You practice with a metronome for the same reason you learn theory, to know when you can break the rules.
Perfectly said
I agree
It’s very much in line with Jazz as well
What's a metronome
That's perfect!
I'm a guitarist not a Drummer but I found this fascinating. The key words I heard you say Rick was 'this drum part is played with feel'. 'Being human'. The way it should be. Brilliant.
Metronome-"I'm wrong John is right...sorry"
THIS! 💯
The metronome doesn't even truly understand why, it just understands it to be FACT. When drums are played properly the metronome sounds 'off'
is more like john is wrong in the right way
@@CyclesAreSingularities yea it gives a lot of fluidity to the groove
Right?....
Metronome- " whatever this dude does is correct"
That proves that the important thing is just to be in time with the band. Bonham and JPJ worked perfectly together not because they were human metronomes but because they were “sloppy” together, sacrificing a perfect tempo to obtain some nice groove. As long as the band is tight that’s all it matters
In my book is what I call 'expression', in 'classical' music it's called rubato, swing in jazz... lost in rock music many years ago
You’re exactly right.
I do agree with you. The reason why LZ and DP (Deep Purple) were so successful was the heavy beat both drummers were employing, with base drum and bass guitar driving everything that was happening at the moment.
However: there were bands at the time where drummers were more precise in holding their beat timing and it didn't hurt their music at all. One of the great examples would be Jerzy Piotrowski from Polish band SBB (late 70's) who by many accounts was "more accurate than metronome".
The band actually used his precision to their benefit as their music was heavily driven by use of multiple synths and keys. The emotion was never lost because the band used the dynamics of classical music which, btw, is also very precise with maintaining rhythm.
Of course no human or band can accomplish the perfection of computer quantizing - and that's only good.
I certainly hope musicians will eventually return to a classic way of recording when all the musicians within the band at least lay down their basic track playing together.
Everyone should strive for perfection in their music.
But they should use their own skills to achieve that. Not a computer
Groove has literally nothing to do with staying in time, it’s feel. Zeppelin had all the feel in the world.
Right!? The tempo of is the band is the tempo of the band. I know I'm not a metronome, but I do my best and will sometimes go off time on purpose just to give it something different. My band called me a jazz drummer because of it.... I'm in no way a jazz drummer.
I wish that I was THAT good.
I do LOVE to groove though.....
There was an organist I knew of back in the Nineties who longed to be able to hear Bach performed perfectly. When MIDI was available, he recorded some Bach organ pieces and quantized them. He was disappointed because it sucked all the life out of them. What he concluded was that, what love to hear is humans striving for perfection, but never achieving it.
Words of wisdom.. the perfection is in the music - how it was conceived. You have to play it just right... but never like a robot.
@@rdpmackie agreed
Not only that, you speed up some parts and slow down others to give it more feel.
You also play some beats harder than others to lay accents + your own conceived constant volume which makes none of the parts identical
I spent my teenage years wishing, dreaming, pleading in my soul for LZ to get back together. i now spend my adult years with more understanding (with the help of videos such as this) that the remaining members were right, there was no going on without the incomparable John Bonham. His groove is still unmatched, to this very day.
I had the exact same progression of thought from teen to adult. They had truly special and unreplaceable. And kudos to Plant really for realizing that and sticking to his conviction. I'm glad they never reformed except for those one or 2 gigs (LiveAid, O2).
Fantastic Rick , this is what we drummers have been saying for years. Slight fluctuations in the groove are what create feel. 👌😎🥁
Tell that to the guitar player
That’s if he’s finished tuning his guitar before rehearsal is over
When he said, at the end, "quantizing John Bonham is..." (I instantly thought "sacrilegious") "... sacrilegious", as I'm sure most people did. I really love this channel.
Like Ringo says "I'm the f**king click track"
Lol yeah but Ringo can actually keep time
@@Darko1.0 Doesn't mean he is right. Ringo never needed pro tools. Stands the test of time.
Tom Acosta so did a lot of other Quincy Jones records that used a click. There’s no one right way.
Ringo was a unique drummer who took nothing away from classic Beatles songs, but added to them in a way only he could have. Rock steady..
In response to a question about a drum machine replacing (i think) his playing, Steve Ferrone said, “I AM the machine.”
Man he sounded so good. His feel and grooves made him my favorite drummer by far.
Yes, Bonham had incredible feel, computers have taken all that away from us. All in the name of saving money via speed and efficiency in the studio.
Makes sense, but now, music is less an art form and more a 'product'. But bands don't have to go this route. The Foo-Fighter made and album on 24 or 48 track tape machine. Not sure if they used click tracks. So, you can still record 'old school'.
It's like the Uncanny Valley effect.
Technically perfect robotic drumming sounds wrong to us.
CGI artists have the same problem making realistic human faces.
We do not live in a perfectly symmetric world. Our sight and hearing have evolved to prefer asymmetry and imperfection.
This is such a beautiful end quote here
You're right.
Quantized version is lack of something
Bonzo would throw 'beat detective' off the roof of the RiotHouse...
Hahahaha!!!! That's a great comment!!!!
Messing with John Bonham's bashing is likely to get you beat, detective
Haha. Love it. He defo would.
First step would be to get the software plastered with Jack Daniels, then violate it with a mud shark, then toss it from the roof of the Sunset Hyatt.
I had a copy of beat detective. I saved a copy of Led Zep song on the same PC and like any other good guy beat detective uninstalled itself.
Maybe we should quantize Lars Ulrich live for him to stay in beat
I almost spit out my drink 😂
@@PaulXPZ I snarfed
He once went to visit a friend but was found standing outside his door for hours because he didn’t know when to Come In...!
LMAO
5:00 "that's called being human" same thing with Lars
The time lag in the original Bonham was probably due to Jimmy Page bending at the knees whilst thrusting his hips forward as he executed an exaggerated power chord windmill... and Bonham had to lag the time just a tad to compensate.
hahahahahaahah
@pyropulse agreed!
@pyropulse It's called "a joke" about Bonham watching Page gyrate to make sure he hits when Page does.
Lighten up. Damn.
@pyropulse Humour: (noun) the quality of being amusing or comic, especially as expressed in literature or speech.
Perhaps you should try it sometime.
Ninjas don't wear diapers!
This video caused quite a stir in the Facebook drumming groups. Us old timers had to school the kids and tell them they’re focusing on the wrong skill. It’s called music, kids!
Bonzo's generation of rock drummers idolised the jazz greats hence they all played with so much swing. Quantise them and all the swing is removed making them lifeless.
A plus with Bonham was that he also idolized the great soul and funk pioneers.
you're both a little wrong... funk didnt quite exist during any of these guys formative years as young drummers (e.g. The Meters '65) Bonzo studied the Jazz greats for technique and groove but that swing comes from Motown, Bonzo loved motown.
@Foxbody Boogie I was referring the other gentlemen in the comment thread. I consider to Motown to be quite gymnastic and quite influential on Bonham, Baker and Moon.
@@gabrielm.4554 I was merely adding an aside - obviously Bonham started his musical career before funk, but he was a great lover of that music when it did hit the scene, and it shows. I *was* going to type soul/funk/R&B/Motown, but I was too lazy the first time around. ;)
Yeah because you can’t quantize drummers in Logic. Sure.
“That’s called being human.”
And what an amazing human Mr. Bonham was!! Awesome video.
Feel > Perfect
Feel = Perfect
Rick,
Thank you for taking the time to illustrate this. I’ve been trying to explain the magic of Bonham to some very young drummers who didn’t grow up listening to John Bonham and this succinctly illustrated what I couldn’t get across to them.
I showed them this video and they totally got it.
Thank you again for your hard work.
Roger Taylor of Queen "There’s no one able to touch him in the rock world. He was the innovator of a particular drum style. He had the best drum sound, and he was the fastest player. Simply stated, he was the best. He’d do things with one bass drum that other drummers couldn’t do with three. He was also the most powerful drummer I’d ever seen. You had to be a drummer to realize how good John Bonham actually was. The average person on the street probably couldn’t really know the difference between John Bonham and the next flash heavy metal merchant, or whatever."
Back then Roger Taylor was nicknamed The Bulldozer.
@pagansforbreakfast He was an as alcoholic with some behavioral problems that are well documented. He is coincidentally the greatest drummer our planet has ever witnessed. Too bad Buddy Rich didn't catch on.
pagansforbreakfast he drank a lot because he was homesick :/
theyve massacred my boy
Thanks for bringing all this Quanitizing stuff to your channel. I had no idea how all of that was done. Always learn a lot from Ricks videos. Great teacher/ communicator.
Bonham is like a elite swing dancer, syncopating behind and ahead of the beat and coming back to the beat. His drumming was down right orchestral in concert. I saw both LZ and the Who live. LZ was funky and powerful and the Who put me to sleep.
@@johnpeace971 I'm curious what kind of crap you have in your ears? It must be thick like your skull.
I'm just seeing this now (four years after it's debut), but the interesting thing here is Bonzo actually played to a click track on In Through the Out Door as John Paul Jones and Robert Plant, writing most of the material, had Jones playing kis keyboards to a click during the day and Bonham and Page coming in for the night session and adding their parts, hardly seeing Jones/Plant during recording. "Bonham was struggling with alcoholism and Page was battling heroin addiction. Jones later said, "there were two distinct camps by then, and we [Plant and I] were in the relatively clean one." Many of the songs were consequently put together by Plant and Jones during the day, with Page and Bonham adding their parts late at night."
To quantize, or not to quantize: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler to the ear to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous sameness, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them?
Answer = "not to"
This comment is perfection.
“Outrageous sameness”
Nicely done! nikshmenga, you have just poked modern musical ennui in the eye with the Bard’s own ancient thumb!
/Bill Shakeastique
Answer = it's eventirely subjective. If you are John Bonham perfect then no, leave it alone. If you are making EDM or motoric krautrock stuff then yes, put it on 100%. If you are a very sloppy rock drummer like myself use some quantization to tighten it up a bit, all quantization tools allow you to specify a percentage, I find 50% to 75% gets me in the same ballpark as decent players without dehumanizing it. What Rick hasn't tried to do here, and which you must, is figure out how much swing is in the beat and dial that into the quantizer too. You can get a 50% swing by quantizing to triplets but the pocket might well be elsewhere so I find it's better to tune it manually.
Quantizing has its place. Some bands have a theme of technology and/or robots, so that ultra mechanical sound is what they want. It just depends on the project and the goal. I'm not a serial quantizer by any means. I record a lot of black metal and stoner music, and I never quantize anything, although I typically insist on a click just to keep things steady and make the whole process faster and cheaper for clients. Every play has their own natural swing which will never fully land on the click grid every time, and to me that's the best result. I don't think quantizing or samples are inherently bad. Sample replacing the whole kit when it's beat up and falling to bits is something I do now and again to get good quality and fast results, and quantizing is there if I need it too. It's all just tools, and they can be used sparingly or abused. It's the hand of the mix engineer that is at fault, not the tool itself.
This whole "To quantize or not to quantize" argument is rubbish imho. If it sounds good it sounds good, either way you pull it off. Most people can't even tell if a decent drummer has been quantized or not until they visually see it in their DAW, or it's shown to them in a video like this one.
Hey, everybody, just fast-forward to 5:30 for the quantize-on / quantize-off part.
Christian Lee Trager not all heroes wear capes.👍
This is so wrong. You might as well auto-tune Robert Plant and compress Jimmy Page while you’re at it.
Sacrilege.
@@martinpaddle The villagers would burn the castle down if that happened. :-D
Please do that, Rick
Actually, I'd kind of really love to hear that. It would be such a great example of how awful it all is when it's autotuned and 'corrected' to buggery.
Great comparison, I always believed that no computer will beat humans feelings, long live Bonzo and the music that comes from the heart...👊
Man, you are really challenging those algorithms xd
100% agree. Nothing is more beautiful than the stochastic element of the human algorithm
In Fool in the Rain the effect wasn't as pronounced imo, because the shuffle itself is so great and quantizing didn't seem to remove it. The dynamics of onbeats and offbeats was preserved there nicely. Shows how great Bonham was, tbh.
The four times I was blessed to see John Bonham and Led Zeppelin back in 71,72,73,and 1975 were just so far above and beyond anything iv heard or seen since and to still have three out of the four tickets stubs 48 years after the fact is just a great bonus.
Love the look on Rick’s face as he’s wrapping up at the end of the video
09:40 “....not only is it sacrilegious, but it sounds Horrendous!!!”
Hey Rick! Love Bonhams' rawness but curious how far Neil Peart in the same era would be from quantized. I appreciate both raw musicians and ones that strive for perfection.
Yeah, that would be interesting.
John Bonham listened to jazz and funk like James Brown so he's got the swing and funky feeling when he plays. I don't get into arguments typically over this one is better than that one but my own PERSONAL opinion was that Peart does not compare to Bonham. I watched a video of him demonstrating and he doesn't have the feeling and syncopation. When he tried to demonstrate jazz and swing it was almost embarrassing. He was good for his thing but he doesn't compare in my book.
Your right Perry when you say they don't compare to each other. Hopefully you were speaking technics and not who's better. I stated I love Bonhams work so calm down. That would be like picking the best guitarist. You would need categorize first and even then it's who likes who. Btw, Neil may have had jazz influence but he's not a "jazz" drummer. To imply that Neil was less than a superior drummer shows naivete.
After a lifetime of recording live in the studio with my bands, circumstances demand that I now record at home - one trackbat a time. Learning to use a metronome was tricky; I had never even considered it before. I found, after about a year of experimenting, that I could use one beat for reference, and then do what I normally do on the other beats. Playing on the front of a beat or back of a beat while using a metronome gets easier with practice. Great video, Rick!
Imagine a world where stairway to heaven doesn't speed up. Sounds aweful
Andrew Gonzalez was thinking same thing. Deliberately speeds up, try doing that today
JPJ on hearing Stairway played to a click track: "it made me lose the will to live."
I am imperfect. I am analog. I want to hear imperfect, analog music. It's about soul, not about perfection.
This channel has taught at least a few millennials and gen xers why we old folks still care about this.
@@RockandRollWoman ok boomer
wow....that sure ruined the Purdie shuffle!
Not so Purdie. :)
Not so Purdie. :)
@@Adipsia1 lol!
Purdie scuffle, Purdie snuffle maybe
Bonham of course is a DRUM GOD, but your new camera looks amazing!
This is the greatest video you have ever made.
I`ve been an obsessive Led Zeppelin fan for more than forty years, and it`s only now that I`ve come
to realise that it wasn`t just the unique power of John Bonham. It was also the EMOTION of his drumming
that gave it such dynamism. That is one of the great secrets of Led Zeppelins appeal : They created
75% of the power, and then it`s us, the audience, that creates the other 25%.
Quantizing those little fills makes it very machine-like sound. It doesn't sound as bad to me - maybe since I grew up with those kind of quantized drums - but those imperfections in the fills make the song 10 times more exciting
They are so far off 170 because you picked the wrong tempo dude. It’s obvious about 1 second into you playing over the click. Slow the click down
Exactly, which is why it gets worse as time goes on. If he was drifting THAT much we'd hear it without the click.
Exactly. If it was just few “mistakes” then next hit back on the tempo - then we can say it the human effect. But because it is getting far and more far as we progress it means you should have tried 169 or even 168
Im like..john was on time. Just not this assholes time.
Counted 8ths as quarters
Exactly! I was screaming at the screen "SLOW IT DOWN" during that part. Mr. Beato knows his stuff, but I'm not convinced this time... I'd like a blind-test to see if he can really even tell the difference.
I'd like to see one of these on Dave Grohl. I bet In Bloom would be way different
Totally agree, im not even a musician but its like he holds the bass beat that just gives it that living groove (if that makes any sense)
I think, the first example was played at the speed of roughly 85 bpm, instead of 170. The drum riff seems to be made up of 8th and 16th notes with some swung 16ths in between.
Yep
Yes indeed
Completely agree. Also I went into ableton and did this myself. The correct tempo is not 131 - it's about 131.6 bpm. Had he taken the time to find the actual bpm it'd be apparent that Bonham did in fact have a consistent beat to beat tempo
I always get confused if a beat is in the double or triple digits. For example my guitar player called a song 136 ppm where i called it 68. How do you ever tell which way is right?
@@ReformedWhiteKnight - thanks for your response. But my other question is how do you know if it's half time or regular. What determines that?
9:23 Bonham in "human" form. Thanks for your sacrifice Rick, quantizing Bonham must have been traumatic.
Listening to Bonham quantized is almost as bad as smooth jazz.
I like to do some gentle stretching to line up the top of a bar to the downbeat but preserve the feel between the beats. This makes it much easier to line up takes and integrate midi without being robotically quantized
Dont you DARE touch '"fool in in the rain" !! Lol ... THE mother of allllll grooves
Good Times Bad Times
@@Earthdogbonzo3 mmmm another good one
Give you one guess to what the song title of the 2nd song was to which we heard Another Bohnam recognizable beat,.....
6:52 - good god......
I don't know which is more beautiful: the drums, the recording/mixing or the technique... or all of the above. Bonham really was a once in a lifetime kind of drummer.
The word "Quantize" and "Bonzo" shouldn't even stay in the same sentence. It is the perfect layman blasphemy.
That''s the cold hard DrumGod truth my man!!! Know the truth, and the truth will set you free!
WOW thats incredible to hear my kit sound like that. Very interesting
Tell Peart I said hi
HAHA!!
You should not have liked it . Should have said “stop wrecking my grooves, future boy”
What's up, John ???
To Me, this perfectly shows the difference between playing and instrument, and programming one. A singer's vocals are their instrument. The drummer's drum and style are his. Subtle styles of play do not come through and add to the product when it's digitally sequenced to perfection by tools and not musicians. When I say musicians, i mean those who can play instruments, Not composers and arrangers. If you're a drummer, and you want to get your voice out, you play your way. It is why all the greats had their own style, own sound. It's also why I would prefer analog/tape to digital/cd any day. But that's another topic. Great exercise here.
Fun post as always! I find that once I separate the clips in Beat Detective using the snap to grid option (command +0) yields me a better result and less clips are incorrectly placed.
A good argument for not quantising, and I dig it, but it’s also because Bonham playing to the guitar licks, which are sometimes polyrhythmic, and using triplets with accents and tension/release timing; in the last track a 4/4 with swung triplets with a 12/8 with swung triplets. People consciously try to do this now, especially after drum machines and samples, if you look at someone like Questlove being very aware of what is behind or on top of the beat to give feel.
I'm happy that videos like this exist. I was born after the dawn of digital recording and manipulation, and to me this hyper-quantised style of music is the norm, to the point that, for years, I didn't even realise there was such a thing as "not playing to a click" whilst recording. Glad I could be educated but saddened by the fact that being human is something that seemed so unnatural to me
The moment he said "let's screw up Bonham with a grid", Fool in the Rain started playing in my head.
Esp on "Fool In The Rain," you feel Bonham "breathing."
Almost like he spoke the part. It's physical and athletic. It has so much more dimension to it.
Quantized, it's only a beat. A couple times the fills recall Bonham's humanness.
But the breathing is replaced by an on/off switch. And Purdy has been smothered.
That was pretty wild.
This guy is the reason I became a drummer. The most soulful rock drummer I've ever heard. Imho. Modern recordings are soulless. Imho.
This is part of why new stuff like the Fearless Flyers sounds so fresh and exciting now. Master musicians in a room playing, and the great Nate Smith on drums with just a kick, snare and a hat and still blowing minds
Imho
Sam GW click tracks are useful to use if there are quiet bits and stops in your songs and you don’t want count ins and all that jazz in your recordings; you can still have feel playing to a click, just so long as nothing gets quantised. Also, not many lower budget facilities are capable of full band recordings so you’re kind of stuck with using a click
jamesmegill why so many are timeless. And modern ones aren’t
Thank you Rick. You hit on a big part of why we all love. Bonzo. That delay/catch up flair with a bass stomp at the next measure is all spirit and flow. I have a hard time quantifying it but I know that I love it. You can feel his literal STOMP after a fill too. Never a more creative drummer.
"Quantizing" makes it sound like the opposite of what makes me listen.
The look he gives at 4:44, a very apologetic face. Great content.
Would have loved a blind A/B to see how many of us could tell them apart without seeing which track was muted! Also, I like quantized and non-quantized audio. It just depends on the song. They both have their strengths. If the end result is something that a listener can vibe with that’s really all that matters.
That would be the real test. That would remove any 'bias' a listener would have. Great idea.
Quantized audio is "good" only when it is necessary to keep the band together. If the band are all in sync with each other, the only point is to make it easier for producers to cut and paste, and for DJs to mix. That is an abomination.
@@JohnSmith-oe5kx We all have our own opinions. I like the sound of quantized audio as well as pitch corrected vocals, or Auto Tune, just as much as I like the sound of natural or non-quantized audio and non-pitch edited vocals. Sometimes those things are necessary for the song or genre. My all-time favorite songs are from all different eras so it really just depends on the vibe of the song for me.
@@toddlavigne6441 I bet most of us wouldn't guess correctly haha
@@DanielBergonzoni If you like the sound of quantized music, or frozen microwave burritos, or whatever else, that is fine with me. I reserve the right to complain if the market becomes saturated with such things to the exclusion of more natural creations.
I agree with what you're saying Rick, but those tracks were recorded at a time when (as an artist) you wanted to be the best musician possible. There was a progression that happened, first with drum machines (how many 80's hits were done with a Linn drum machine?). Then recording on computers. The final nail in the coffin however IMO was MP3's. Artists used to create music for music's sake and then sell it as a product so they could continue doing it. Now artists ARE the product. So instead of the best musicians, or most talented artists rising to the top where we can see them, all we ever get are the best products with music being used to sell THEM. The good news is that those groovy, human recordings are still out there, but you really have to dig for them.
Correction: he’s not behind the beat. He *is* the beat 🤣
Seriously though, can you imagine quantising a conductor like Bernstein or Rattle? Rubato is music.
So many drummers have to play to clicks today even live because of the tracking that occurs that a lot of feel is gone. Of you listen to older stuff you can hear the small variances in tempo that happen. Bonham had a swing to his stuff that was pure feel and is so much more fun to listen to.
A very experienced sound engineer told me a while back, "Computers can't swing".
Except that, they absolutely can
@@Kamalari Do you mean by dangling them out of the window by the power cord?
@@petegiant Haha! yes.
But in all seriousness, I mean by just not quantizing..
And sometimes even by turning the knob that says 'swing' ..
Listern to dila, Pete rock, DJ premier, early outkast, DJ sneak, any French house, jungle like shy fx or any have decent electronic music they all swing
Kamalari swing is more than a consistent timing thats ‘swung’ though. It can change per beat, putting more emphasis on 1 with a delay just before. And to an extent it can also be in dynamics, computers can try to copy it but they cant get all the intricacies which is why sloppiness and swing can almost be interchanged. One a negative way of saying the other
Rick, there is an on-going debate about the drummer on Donovan's Hurdy Gurdy Man. Some say it was Clem Cattini and other John Bonham. The drumming on the song is insane, and sounds to me very distinctive John Bonham. Being a forensic music anthropologist type, I was hoping you might be able to analyze the Donovan song, isolate the drums, and see if you can compare the playing to both Bohnam and Cattini from other songs to see if you can pick out signatures of style and technique.
My Yamaha DTX has a function that tells you if you are ahead or behind the beat. I have always suspected I was a little late and sure enough it showed I was. BTW we’ve been in Atlanta since 87. It’s been a nice place to move to, as you have discovered.
I get the point, but to be fair the drift that you're illustrating is arbitrary as it is only drifting relative to another humanly-derived tempo, ie 170 was arrived at by by tapping and then the computer rounded it to 170 8th notes per minute, or 85 BPM. I tapped out the same selection you used at 169 8th notes per minute and it lines up a lot better than at 170. Or if dividing the number of beats by duration, you would end up with 24 quarter note beats divided by 17.0032 secs * 60 = 84.69 BPM
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Dude, you're the guy who quantized John Bonham.
I can't LOVE this video enough! Such a beautiful and pertinent study of art vs technology. Bonzo vs the Click Track. No contest!
Another issue for me, as a listener, is the change in mics used on snares. While I love them and particularly their first record- my earliest noting of the new snare sound is on The Cars' debut album. It seems like that instantly altered the end listener's sound of snares forever. I like it in much of the music that followed, but I wonder why virtually nobody ever records the snare sound the 'old' way. Pre-Cars- snares sounded similar on LPs and live. After? totally different.
Is it possible to get a decent result by doing the opposite, knocking a programmed groove's hits off-grid enough to sound human?
It happens in hip hop all the time. Look up J Dilla. He's probably the most influential beat maker of all time.
That's Questlove from The Roots talking about J Dilla's influence
@@zacfortin9023 thanks Zac. I'm watching an Adam Neely video on the J Dilla thing now.
it's never the same as a real human drummer, but yes, nowadays we have ways to do that. Still, I am a drummer and I don't think quantized versions are worse, or better for the record. It's just different, and definitely not something that makes music sterile, that's just a result of people wanting to hear badly written music.
You can but it takes a sort of "controlled randomness" and can be pretty tedious. You cant just throw every note slightly off beat randomly it wont achieve the same effect as a human player, you have to put the right notes off time in the right amount if you know what i mean.
I love this. Not only does it reinforce my belief that Bonzo was the best ever, but it also proves that imperfections make things truly perfect. Love it. Now let's all switch off the quantize function in our DAW and learn to play again :)
Gnome Party what about that isolated drum track would be the determining factor in declaring John bonham the best ever? Play some tracks by Steve Gadd, Dennis chambers, Bernard Purdie, and a bunch of others. Those dudes were even funkier and had better “feel”
@@rogerwelsh2335 It's not this particular clip in isolation. It's his entire body of work, and the fact that he recorded it all in the 12 years from 20 to 32.
This clip reinforced my original views, because I think it shows how he turned the individual words of drum rudiments into beautiful sentences. Making an instrument "speak" is a rare talent.
Anyhow, it's all subjective. Almost everyone in the world can talk, but not everyone can make a career from talking, let alone be recognised as a master orator, or a legendary voice over artist.
So much info. All the best mate.
It would be great to see another video like this with
1) Bernard Purdie himself, who was the biggest influence on Bonham (so said Robert Plant)
2) Keith Moon, famed 'sloppy' drummer
3) Steven Jo Bladd of The J. Geils Band (known for his good time)
I could suggest a few others. Thank you : )
Even quantizing can't really take the funk outta Bonham! :D
I agree and to me, honestly, I don't feel that much of a difference.
Thank you for explaining this.. soooo many people that are not musicians have no idea what this is when I mention this in conversation and also musicians/drummers that haven't recorded in a studio yet. There minds are blown.. but it sucks all the life out of it..
This is great content. Even though some people are claiming that 170 is "too fast", it doesn't really matter because the whole point is to illustrate what some of us have known for years...Quantizing makes music sound awful.
Thanks Rick this insight has taken a load off my shoulders. Particularly In the 80s it was expected of me to play very rigid , totally unnatural for me. To the point of making me doubt my musical ability. Although often it is the core, there is more to life than just the 2, and 4......
Whenever I quantize stuff, I always go through and de-quantize everything by hand-- stretch out those beats for emphasis and so on.
It goes from 'groove' to 'marching band'.
Great experiment. Eye opening. Shows exactly what we need to get back to. Thanks Rick.
The non-quantized track makes me start moving almost unconsciously, even if it’s just nodding the head. Bonham’s drumming came from something primal, and I think it reaches out to a listener the same way. Isolated tracks just make that all the more clear. Years ago, a friend of mine had a BOSS “Dr Rhythm” drum machine. I found I liked building drum parts by simply playing in each component manually, basically using it like a tiny drum kit, instead of making a loop and duplicating it. It sounded more like a drummer to my ears.
Hey Rick, I would love it if you did a “What makes this song great” on brazilian music. Anything really, from Bossa Nova to MPB everything is great. I recommend Milton Nascimento, on the album Minas.
I doubt Rick is going to read this, but the "remastered" 2007, and later Zeppelin IS quantized. I went to do a cover of The Wanton Song over Bonham's track, and the tempo is perfectly matched at 110.8 BPM the entire tune. The 1990 "Remastered" stuff is not. He's John Bonham, he's going to sound incredible regardless
Love to hear quantized comparison of Mitch Mitchell on "Hey Joe" or "Fire". I'll bet the digital version is horrible!
I have said to my band ever since i saw this video a year ago ... If Bonham didn't play in time then neither will I ....
Zeppelin was out of time and sounded like crap on many occasions. That's why a lot of really good bands break up- as perfectionists they get tired of having crappy nights. Now crappy bands with crappy musicians- they can play together for years. A lot of them don't even realize how terrible they sound most of the time😂😂😂
Great video. I really like that you mentioned the Purdie shuffle too. I teach music at the same location Ron Hurst of Steppenwolf teaches (when not quarantined). He was telling me that him and Bernard go way back.
The original versions all sound better. Feel and Groove people !
Thanks Rick 👍
I'm a drummer who just recently discovered John Bonham. Everything you say about feel and power for his original, unquantized playing actually has the opposite effect for me: I get incredibly turned off with his play because I find it too "out of the grid". In fact, I was grooving harder with the quantized versions in this video. Why would this be?
exercise in futility, rick. i agree that nothing replaces a fine human player, but being negative won't solve this. quantization is nothing new. remember the strict dance tempo recordings of the 50/60s? done to a click. lots of film/TV - click track. this click does not have to stay at the one tempo. ProTools doesn't seem to have the ability to track the tempo without a lot of trouble? logic pro does this quickly and with little fuss. on drums, it nails it. the music for this vid, - Bonham was not meant to be quantized. but try the reverse. track the Bonham, then use the mapping on a programmed drum kit playing a similar pattern. it is called a groove template. works on any instrument with a bit of massaging. I use it all the time. cheers. j.
When he tried to capture the tempo via tapping, I shook my heading thinking, "oh funny old man". And he has never mentioned changing up the tempo map, or using a "humanize" function; only snapping perfect to the grid at a static tempo.
That’s because that is the way most rock music had been made since 2000. Humanize function is a joke. Have you ever recorded a real drummer? You would be better off just doing it by ear.
I understand what Mr Beato is pestering against but I was wondering about what you said. Aren't there advanced tricks now in softwares that "humanize" the beat with more swing if you map a track serving as a template so the algorithm emulates the swing of that track and applies it to your beat. I'm not an expert, I once used Addictive Drums. I'm not up to date.
This is not the point I was making. You can easily use a beat map in protools but that’s not how it’s been used in rock music in the last 20 years. There are a few exceptions but not many. The groove templet is a ridiculous idea I’m sorry to say. Purposely unquantizing something to give it “human” feel. The key is “with a little massaging”. Just hire a great drummer have them play to a clock and problem solved.
@@RickBeato i know plenty of drummers and have worked with THE BEST here in Australia. to say, "just go hire a good drummer", is pretty vague. the economy of scale comes into play. talent, and studio to record them at, all costs a lot of money. not many can afford that as a constant cost. especially if the market place is as shaky as it is now. j.
The great “feel” vs “technical” debate. “Feel” wins every time.
A spectacular example of man versus machine where the natural order is just superior, great example Rick.👍
I've listened to Bonham's track (from "The Song The will not be named" about a fool standing in the rain) on repeat, by itself like a song in of itself... it is that friggin awesome.
It's here on utube... listen to it, it's awesome.