WTF is AVC? - 12K 3D Printers Are Irrelevant - Resin Printer Video for Beginners Comparing K Metrics
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.พ. 2024
- This video is a bit more long-form than usual, If you are a regular viewer, maybe skip to about 00:07:00 - (though I hope you will watch it all anyway to help boost the video and allow it to reach and help more people) But many of you have seen me make this same point over and over in all of my printer review videos. And I've promised for a while that I'd stop repeating myself and make this separate video for the beginners. And now, in future videos I don't need to talk about 2k, 4k, 8k, 9k, 12k, 14k etc being misleading marketing terms anymore YAY! - I can just refer people here, which allows me to spend more time in reviews focusing on a printers features and the results it delivers.
TLDW, please stop comparing printers by their K metric, that measures the screen resolution, not the print quality - we nee something new, please can we call use AVC instead.
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This video is a bit more long-form than usual, If you are a regular viewer, maybe skip to about 00:07:00 - (though I hope you will watch it all anyway to help boost the video and allow it to reach and help more people) But many of you have seen me make this same point over and over in all of my printer review videos. And I've promised for a while that I'd stop repeating myself and make this separate video for the beginners. And now, in future videos I don't need to talk about 2k, 4k, 8k, 9k, 12k, 14k etc being misleading marketing terms anymore YAY! - I can just refer people here, which allows me to spend more time in reviews focusing on a printers features and the results it delivers.
TLDW, please stop comparing printers by their K metric, that measures the screen resolution, not the print quality - we nee something new, please can we call use AVC instead.
Way too damn long... way to slow actually explaining the key point, and you spread it out so far most people will have forgotten your starting arguments for part A by the time you finish actually covering part B. Video could have been more informative, and not even five minutes long. I'd recommend you do less... ranting... on future videos meant to inform people. For information, and not just random entertainment, the length works against people and their attention spans or ability to focus. And ya, when it takes several minutes to realize yes you're just trying to mention the same obvious thing I figured this video might be about within two seconds of reading the title... talk about wasted time. If you want to spread this out to get more views and new people to the channel... not the right way to do it I'd say... Hit the touchy titles and clickbait ok... but focus on the point without wasting everyones time.
@@terricon4 I hear you, and my comment above is my attempt at damage control for earlier comments saying the same. I:ve even had some independent friends watch it now who have echoed what you have said so the message is heard loud and clear.
What I do find odd is that when I check the stats on this video. It has higher engagement and a longer watch time than any other video I've put out in the last 6 months, which is crazy. It has more subscribers per view too.
So whilst I do hear you, and take the feedback onboard, I will cut the waffle in future videos. The video itself is really resonating with a good group of people. and i believe it's likely the beginners who the video was aimed at who want this kind of buy info, as many other comments have suggested.
I did go into this with an intentional slow burn intro, bit to drag it out, but so that people new to all this had time to digest the info I'm putting forward. I get that the first several minutes are the same point 3 different ways. That was intentional. I realised it was dragging and then instead of just moving on, apologised to my existing viewers for it happening. No idea if that helped or made it worse.
It's all good feedback that will lead to better videos in future.
I always use the analogy of grains of sand on a beach. Because any display device is about pixel density as you point out. Not pixels in general. It’s why buying a TV for 4k for instance only starts making sense at a certain size/viewing distance. You have to get close enough for it to matter/you to see the individual grains of sand. Just a helpful analogy for laymen
All of the new printers are going to be 12k. The people over at Concepts3D told us last week that they 8k LCD panels that they and everyone else have been using have been discontinued. They are working to purchase enough of the remaining stock to cover warranties, etc. I opted for the 12k Athena more as a future proofing than anything. It comes with the cable and board that will be required to drive higher resolution displays and the concept behind the Athena is to have a fairly generic platform that can be upgraded over time.
Oh 'K' ur 'screwed' with the bigger the build volume the less quality output with same screen resolution. 'Bolt' of inspiration compare 'bolt and nut' benchies (benchmark) a simple visual of smallest working bolt and nut that resin printer can produce. This would be a direct comparison. So a postage stamp sized resin build area/screen would be very small jewelry sized bolt ( or smaller) and a drydock sized build area/screen would be a massive oil tanker size bolt. Scaling would be logarithmic or exponential. Sticker on side of printer with its bolt benchy quick visual comparison.
As much as I really love the points of the video, it does feel like the first 10 minutes couldve been 1 minute addressing the title, it just felt a bit like waffling. After the 10 minute mark it gets more helpful and informative - retention will be interesting for this one!
Fair enough, I hear you
And as long as we're giving constructive criticism if you are going to waffle on recycling the same three or four stock clips throughout it makes it even less interesting to watch.
This video is 1000% runtime padding.
@@johnnyjoseph1389yep, thanks, heard you the first time
the majority of his videos are waffle tbf
Wow, that's quite extraordinary ability to put "When consider resolution you need to consider size of build plate" into 20 minute long video.
FOR THE ALGORITHM! I have a DLP printer. It has a 51 µm voxel size. That's the only number I've ever used, personally.
If you get *good* atomization,, you can airbrush (or rattle can) primer down around 8-30 µm (when it's dry). Think about it, folks. Even when dry, a coat of primer is roughly half a voxel at my printer's 51 µm voxel size. If you aren't so lucky, the blobs of primer coming from the spray can will be many times bigger than the 51 µm voxels by my printer produces.
With the highest-resolution printers available, the _best priming job possible_ is going to add an inconsistent and (relatively) sloppy layer on top of the sharp layer the printer creates. If you're _painting_ your minis, we're fast approaching the point where there's no point in resolution improvements.
That's not to say there can't be improvements - the Apple Vision Pro, for example, has LCD's with pixels in the 8 µm range. I imagine it'll be a while before they can be produced at the size of a Sonic 8Ks mini or Mars printer.
I agree with @FauxHammer: Use voxel size in µm, but I'd demand the eccentricity from being a perfect square.
Yup fully agree on the use of the AVC metric for any type of resin printer. The fun part will be when comparing a DLP printer with an AVC of 51micron against a 22micron AVC LCD resin printer where the difference is pretty much negligible but the technology is different.
Yeah, agreed, but that's the bit where I did the car analogy with Horsepower/KG,. It's only ever going to be a raw number, you still need reviewers to dissect it before making a decision. - but its's a better more comparable baseline between printer sizes than K.
This is the best and only PRO-CONSUMER video I have ever watched... Thanks 🙌
Wow, that’s incredible feedback, thanks
Sorry man, but this was too much click bate for little information. It took the video 6 minutes too even begin talking about the point being made.
Ok
I liked it despite having 3 printers and starting with the original Photon years ago. If manufacturers would stop using "K", this video would be just clickbait, but they aren't!
But I disagree with the AVC standard. What brands need to do is to specify an actual printing resolution in terms of lines/mm at a defined z-aspect ratio. They can then even sell the resin they used to measure it.
The point is, that a printer with 24 um pixels may perform much better than one with 17 um because it has better contrast ratio in the resin, which is determined by a number of optical factors.
Man, I am so glad this is one of the first video I've been recommended as I started looking a 3D printers.
This saved me so much time lol.
I'm only a couple weeks into this hobby, but it's been quite the learning experience thus far.
I really enjoy your content and appreciate all the passion you put into it.
My entry machine was a Photon 4k, but I find this topic really helpful as I'm already pondering what I want my next printer to be.
Great video. Thanks for always sharing your opinion! Just ordered my first bottle of Wargammer resin. Excited to try it out!
Hope you enjoy it!
Looking forward to it being available in the states.
@dionysuscsw9405 you can order it for the states now. That's where I'm at
Totally agree with what you're saying here, and the last 5 minutes of this video discussing community feedback was really great. The "boring tech talk" is really why I clicked on a video discussing the relevance of a fairly esoteric measurement.
Wholly believe, however, that it doesnt take over 20 minutes to get this information across - BUT I understand you need watch time for the algo (hence this comment). I felt that you spent a lot of time repeating yourself, which nearly lost me a few times.
I look forward to this being the spearhead of a movement to redfine how we measure the specs of these machines (at least until we get true SLA printers in the home market with infinite XY accuracy - or at least 405nm² x 20um voxels haha), and I hope enthusiasts can prevail in the face of less than scrupulous overseas manufacturers.
Thanks for your time and for really considering all fronts of this. I'm in the market for a new printer - so I think its high time I sent requests out for this data...!
That minimal z step is really needed and hard to find characteristic. Also would be nice to know what are software constraints on z travel speed.
Yep, I’ve been begging brands for this info in literally every review. And they never tell me.
Just to be pedantic here (and give you some tasty "engagement"), your engine size example does have one flaw. Maximum possible power output of a combustion engine is in direct relation to the engine volume. Assuming that the engine builders were both seeking max power output, the larger engine will be more powerful.
It would have probably been a better comparison to say that comparing two cars performance purely on their horsepower is irrelevant because that truck with 800hp and 1200 ftlbs of torque is also 3-4 times heavier than the 250hp / 185 ftlbs hatchback
Was thinking the same. Best would have been to compare same capacity engines, but one in a sportscar and one in a van. Which will go faster (print quality) vs which can move all your furniture to your new place the fastest (print size).
I have a 4K printer (the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4K) and I'm curious just how much of a difference in visible quality there is between the 8K and 12K machines of similar size.
Here's something to think about: My Mars 4 DLP is a "2K" printer. It has a Voxel size of 51 or 52 µm (depending on who you ask... I figure there's probably a decimal point being rounded, and I don't really care). Your Frozen Sonic Mighty 4K *also* has a 52 µm Voxel size. You have *double* the K, but are going to have _literally the same print quality_.
So, with that eyeball calibration out of the way: I've spent a *lot* of time staring at prints under magnification, with various AA settings, from many slicers.
If you're young, and have good eyesight (or glasses), and the prints are unpainted, and have a resin that shows off contrast well: you can see differences if you pick it up and examine them closely.
If you're older (eyesight starts to go *fast* above 40), or if the prints are painted, or if the resin doesn't show contrast well (transparent or white resin, for example), or the prints are more than 30 cm away - then it's unlikely you'll be able to see anything.
Keep in mind: An _expertly applied_ spray coat of primer alone is going to be 20 µm thick. Expertly applied paints are likely going to add another 100 µm of additional thickness. That's a _lot_ of, well, "self-leveling filler." to smooth out any voxel blockiness.
The print size is generally larger with similar voxel dimensions.
stupid: it's just so you read and realize that sometimes it's not so you read it but so you realize it's true.
Printers are not made for your world of stupidity. They were created with the purpose of being able to physically extract things that are virtual and not only that but they can be converted to metal in a foundry, for example jewelry, where precision is the detail and microns are worth gold, it is not your case, you are only playing to test printers and act important, the microns of a printer are worth at casting levels since it leaves a smooth surface where it takes little time to finish it perfectly, above The 30 microns are already problematic, that is, stop giving opinions from a chair complaining about the lack of pleasure in your useless life and leave the microns to those who really care, those who work and have access to economical and super precise printers ( this for the useless video creator)
Ive been looking at getting into resin and am glad to hear this; the seeming resolution creep had been a reason I’d held off
I’d thought 12k didn’t look much better than 8k but hadn’t looked into it yet, but am glad to know to look out specifically for the pixel size - makes the comparison a lot easier
I hear you! Yet, what I noticed is the following my LCD and my DLP have the exact same AVC of 50µm, the quality of the DLP is way better. I mean, you can dry brush a mini printed on the DLP without seeing ANY lines. We probably need to have something for DLP as well. In the 2d world this would refer to pixel-images and vector images, I guess. What do you think?
I haven't used a DLP, but I suspect it has to do with DLP being a consistent light source across the entire print area while individual LEDs in the LCD screen can be brighter or darker than the median. LCDs lose more power to the glass than a DLP as well, which could be a problem in itself as well as degrading the variations within the LCD further.
Completely agree and thanks for explaining that. Always wondered why the bigger printers had a reduced print quality. I have seen comparisons of 4K 8k and 12k for printed models and really doesn’t seem to a big difference particularly since the layer heights are the same and that is a big measure for me as to how visible these are.
Glad it was helpful!
Incredibly helpful information! Anyone looking to buy a resin printer should watch this video before making a decision. Thank you Fauxhammer!
Thanks so much
I have a question: Isn't the resin used going to affect the achievable layer thickness as well? So the AVC, if it is in the height direction, would only be a measure of the resolution of height that the actual mechanical apparatus can achieve - right?
In your opinion, what is the AVC beyond which diminishing return makes further refinement irrelevant?
I think i did the math on this recently, I think around 18um is where you can get 2x magnificattion without seeing a difference in horizontal pixles
@@FauxHammer Seems like current resin 3D printers are quickly approaching that level of detail, at least the small ones are. In a couple years I imagine resolution will become pretty standardized across the board so we can get over having to deal with +2K per iteration every 6 months lol.
@@FauxHammer thanks for this number there, a lot of us are trying to get the clearest smoothes print out of clear resin and knowing where we can stop worrying about surface "frosting" or texture would warp the light on smooth planes it good to keep in mind. 💙
Thank you for the time and effort you have dedicated to this. I appreciate the information provided, especially as I am new to this process.
I was looking for a 12K but now i know what to look for, thanks!
Brilliant, so you understand now it's not about K it;s about the pixel size! You are the reason I made this, and it;s made my day that i can help you.
But honestly, right now, some of the best detail printers are the 12k ones. like the Saturn 3.
I understood this before seeing this video. But you touched on a point I never thought of. On a large printer Is there even atcualy any point printing a .02 layer height when the it's only giving you 43um X 43um.
Should we just be printing .04 layer height and speed up the print now that is has much less layers.
I atcualy just noticed the standard profile for the M3 max is .05mm layer height
That's why I have a 14K printer. 😛
14k is also irrelevant. ;)
@@FauxHammer Yeah but bigger numbers!! I do want to know what magic causes the rectangular pixels not to stretch/distort prints.
@@tmilker lol
Fantastic video! I've been trying to explain this to clients for YEARS now I'm just going to send them a link to this video..
When you print across multiple printers this becomes quite obvious but that's why I use different printers for different models but the M3 MAX prints are almost identical to the Jupiter as long as you dial in the resin!
I already had a 4K resin printer and decided to buy a 12K but before it came I saw your video about resolutions and ended up sending it back and got a Bambu Labs X1 carbon which I feel was probably a much better choice. Thanks for the info
lol, that’s a jump.
Love it. I've been with you about the silliness of the K designation from the beginning. As for the AVC, you need a few of the other TH-camrs to start using it. That should help a ton.
Thanks, I’ll try to get more people onboard
I bought the saturn 2 because it was in my budget and you spoke well of it. Thanks for the information
Hope you enjoy it! it;s a fantastic printer
Very informative Video - I've looked many of your Videos before I made my decision to buy a new Resin printer. Finally I went for a Saturn 3 - Not because of the "12k" - but the combinition of building area und the aprox. 24 micron pixelsize.
Unfortunately the comparison with the commonly know "k" as a indicator of resolution the manufactures use leads us - the users - often in a "wrong" (I only mean in the expectation of the quality we will get) way - but in fact it is a way of Advertisement like in many other products. The more important is to get the neutral information - and therefore your videos are a big help respectively source to get a better overview.
Thanks from germany
Danke
I'm all for this, and it will be up to reviewers to start using this as the way to compare printers in reviews. Viewers should start asking what the AVC/XY Resolution is, both to manufacturers and reviewers.
Build Volume (XYZ), XY Resolution (µm), and light source technology are what really matter to me, along with the quality of life features (heated vat, auto-refill, build quality, quietness, networking, etc).
You'll notice some manufacturers (AnyCubic) don't put the XY Resolution on their large volume printers because the XY Resolution isn't sexy enough for marketing and betrays the entire K rating system. Huge difference between 8K 13.6" and 8K 9.1" screen.
Hey @FauxHammer,
nice video. One thing that I still find worth to mention; the AVC of the DLP printers in the axial direction is not equal to the step height you set at the printer but is determined by the dose and the material absorption constant. I guess for a lot of resins that are not pitch black this value is >20µm. And that would be the AVC in my opinion. So it is even more complicated as it is material dependent.
That's more true with LCD than DLP. but I'm not trying to enforce brands to determine the actual printed voxel. I just want to help define clear marketing terms in contrast to the BS currently spouted.
I'm still working on helping people understand Exposure vs base exposure, if i ocvercomplicate videos with how pixels are formed. i'll loose my audience in a snooze fest quite rapidly
I understand the premise of the video and the information presented. I think you’ll get more views getting straight to the point. I will say I saw the short you were talking about but never watched it because the thumbnail was of Opie from sons of anarchy and I just couldn’t get into that show.
I think a term more relevant to laymen would help the industry. I think it should be ranged in dpi, it would be instantly recognized and understandable. Period. LxW dpi is close enough for me.
Please give Sons another chance, It's Shakespere on Motorbikes
Absolutely loving the Father ted thumbnail. Probably my favourite bit of that program. Also.....nice video... as always 😅😅
Thanks a ton. I was hoping that people would like thT
Ok, using your terminology (which I agree with), is there a printer with a 12" - 15" screen with a 20 - 24 AVC?
Thanks, and no, not yet, we are all waiting for one.
@FauxHammer Darn.. is there a 10" with a 19 - 24 AVC? I'm honestly lost on how many printers there are and the capabilities.
@@jeffjackson4465 yes, all current 12k printers are 10” 19x24um pixels. Making the AVC 24um
@@FauxHammer Phrozen Mighty has a "14k" 10.1 inch screen. 16 × 24 microns..for $999.00 at pre-order launch.
I'm always amazed in how much work you put into your videos. Excellent presentation.
informative and making a good point, fun also seeing the parade of printed models, makes me want to print some myself 🙂
Thanks for hammering this info for people. If you think about voxels as 3d cubes (which they are), your example of 22x22x20 vs 43x43x40, the latter is worse than twice as large - it's 8 times as large. The voxels are twice as wide, twice as deep, and twice as tall.
fair point...
So, TDLR; Much like how fast a car can be is not determined by power but by power/weight, printer sharpness is not determined by pixel count but by pixel count / how small those pixels are.
Is that a half decent understanding?
Jupp, compare DPI, not physical resolution.
@@joergsonnenberger6836 well no - as the point of the video says DPI is just X/Y resolution - Layer Hight / Z axis needs to be included hence the move to tward actual voxal
I am grateful for your videos. The explanations, definitions, and experience are tremendously beneficial. They have helped me avoid the marketing traps, and I sincerely appreciate it. Keep up the great work!
I did three months of research before I ever bought my resin printer for around $300 bucks, and I don't remember if it was your video or somebody else's that inspired me to look for the average foxhole size but when I did purchase mine I made sure that it was a 24 maximum and the printer itself is the creality hallett mega
Glad you understood this. But if you night that printer, it wasn’t from my review ;)
I've been debating getting into the hobby, and well, that answered quite a few questions. Even some I didn't know I'd have. Thanks!
Really interesting and insightful. Been printing about fours years and learned something new. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
I just clicked the video as I am just starting resin. I have a FDM, and won a resin printer. I don't think mine has a "K" sticker on it. Everything you stated is however very very true as the "K" metrics don't apply when as a user I can set the layer height. I went ahead and subbed as I can see the learning potential of your channel. Thank you.
Just got my three month mark for black forge games. Thank you for showing me them.
Glad you’re enjoying them, they are great!!!
Could label things as Minimal Square Voxel. The smallest square (within 10%) that is possible with the printer. Could also do the do the average of the pixel square so if it's 19×24 then the rating would be 21.5 micron. If you do that you could borrow car engine terminology and have over square (x has more pixels) and under square (y has more pixels) to define how it is skewed. So the previous would be like 21.5 os if it was reversed, then 21.5 us, if it's like the mini 8k the 22 s (square). I don't know just a thought. But yeah this whole thing is a bit silly.
Very, very didactic video. In these times of fast video and ultra-consumption, sincerity is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much and I'm sorry for my English
Thanks, English was spot on, no need to apologise
Makes inflammatory statement, gets inflammatory responses….What did you expect to happen? Just tell people the point instead of baiting clicks and over-explaining something simple like relative pixel density and size.
Thank you for the round up at the end. I am shopping for a new printer since my move, and this sealed the deal.
Beautifully explained. Very useful for me as a newcomer to the 3D printing industry. And love the proposal of using AVC
I'm a newby to resin printing and sometimes find things difficult to understand but I understud and agreed with everything that you said because you explained it in simple terms so from what I've seen of the new sonic mighty revo 14K which looks good and I was thinking of buying as my starter printer as it look simple to use it won't mean anything unless the pixels are equal both ways and are at the value they should be!, I'll be very interested to know what you think about this new printer in a review and see if it's same old, same old, with a new coat on?, many thanks for the video, see you on the next one!.
I really liked the video and the explanation you give. Although I did get it before. To be honest, I don't care at all. There are so many factors that come in to play. The only real standard is the output it delivers. So ideally there is an independed organization that get the printers from all brands and they would print the same model with the same resin with the optimal settings and then you get a score on the level of detail and maybe the distance from which the layer lines become invisible. And of course on usability speed and all the other important details. Basically the job you guys are doing now but than more organized and for all printers. Only than we have a honest comparison and good idea of what is achievable with the printers out there. Till then I'll just keep following your channel 😉
ok... so I both agree with you and disagree with you.
So yes, I agree voxel size is a good metric, HOWEVER, were getting to the point that processing time is a significant limiter on the printer cost, so I dont think we will see much increase in resolution... so, this would likely mean we would see brands race to a smaller and smaller AVC, at the cost of print volume. Then you run into the problem that resins start being your constraining factor on your 5 um printer... and the process continues.
and really, I do need to say for all practical application I really cant see the difference between my Saturn 3 ultra and my friends Saturn 8k... were both somwhat over exposing, and really on the tabletop we are fine with that. No one can see layer lines on the painted mini's, and were both happy with what we have (though he is jellous of the wifi... which TBH is why i got mine).
At the end of the day, I think marketers will market, and I think it comes down to reviewers who need to manage this. AVC is a good metric to point out, but I really hope we start seeing brands invest more in the periferal features... Vat heaters, filters, Wifi, ventilation, whatever else is next, rather than trying to decrease AVC, its fine where it is. IMO. (/rant)
I really like my Halot Mage 8k, The details are fantastic, I cant really see how going up could be better. At most Id just want a larger build plate. Now to be honest , Ive never used any other resin printer . I only have my Halot Mage
Yeah, that’s 8k, it’s really not that much better at all. And in some cases worse
I have a saturn 3 12k. I got it not because it has a large build plate and the “12k” means my cubic pixle resolution is somewhere in the 20x17x10um range. A Lowe res would have larger x y pixel size (z axis tends to be 10um for most).
Tldr print more or bigger in one go at the same detail as a smaller printer.
Obvi Oi iusky there's are Compromizes, but for me its perfect
This was really great and useful as someone who is constantly looking for ways to quantify and potentially describe technical and artistic qualities. I would say while I support your push for better standardization terms (lets all rejoice USB stuff is finally looking at getting their shit together), I think it would be beneficial to have a follow up video or two down the line to break down the description of AVC again. This follow up needs to get to the point a bit faster than this video; I only watched all the way through since I’ve seen a few from the channel and trust you already. For the uninitiated, the’ll need something in depth but more to the point before their eyes glaze over
great feedback and taken on board thanks to your kind approach to putting it
I was always skeptical about how the number of k of a screen was related to the pixel density. Thanks for the thorough clarity on this.
Dear FauxHammer, think it would help if you could publish the AVC for all the known printers. A simple spreadsheet should do.
Apologies if you already have that, then I simply was too thick to find it.
Not a bad idea, I’ve said it in all videos, just never called it AvC before
I totally agree and was going to suggest this - if the sheet (or webpage) were commonly adopted then it would help both people and companies understand whats needed of them.
I waited so long time for this video. Thank You so much for explaining whats going on (=
Hope you enjoyed it!
It would be useful a table with AVC resolution for all available resin printers (or at least for all ones you review)
Already done, In all the reviews, I just called it pixel size before.
Thank you for the work you put into this. I wholeheartedly support the push for AVC. As an engineer I already know the grief marketing dept. can cause when it comes to accuracy and relevancy of their claims in marketing. Leaving a comment for the algorithm.
Edit: Please release Wargamer resin in Norway, I want to test it out
Thanks, and we are working on EU next. Just about to do US.
Got this a good while ago, annoyingly Manufacturers tend to quote AVC when the printer is new, then drop it real quickly when it's no longer the best, making it hard to find out the true values later on. For me I have several printers, approx 6, 9 and 13 inch screen size but all have the same-ish resolution 46 to 50 micron, giving me a consistancy between each print, would I like finer resolution - Hell Yes, am I going to get it in the near future probably not, at least not until they give up the ghost.
I enjoyed both the 8K and 12K video's, just waiting for the 24K installment 😉
Got to say this was my first vid by you I watched and like the rest already pointed out once you got past the waffle waffle stage, and got to the point is when I got really interested as I been putting off getting a printer till I get my new home and move. Thank goodness I put it off as I'd been in line with the K equals better right? crowd.. Now better informed I'll do more digging on printers and keep my eye on the used car salesmanship (upselling a potentially huge pile of garbage as a diamond) of printer makers. So thanks for that going to watch some of your other vids now and subbed😁😁🙃😁😁
i know this video is old, but I just got into resin and I was referred to this video by your Slicer Settings video. I had hoped to learn how to calculate the AVC for my printer but you just kinda kept throwing out numbers. I get you wanna keep your channel alive but i kinda feel like my deceased equine has been assualted. Love (most) of your videos! Keep making content!
I need all the Ks and all the speed!! Also my minivan in high school had a 6.5L engine 😂
Must have been the best minivan
@@FauxHammer It was gold, making it easy to find in any parking lot 😎
Very good points. I'm looking to get into hobby printing and love the fact that I'm now better informed thanks to you ;)
Agree, many people don't understand that if you have a 4inch 8k display and a 10inch 8k display the pixels on the 10inch display will be way larger, Same for these printers, bigger squares means less details.
yep. too many people don't know this still, even now.
Thank you for your video. I am new to the hobby and am currently looking for my first printer. I really thought the K meant something. Thanks for opening my eyes!
I think this makes sense for LCD mSLA. However, we need a metric that shows why DLP gets better prints at lower resolution. And that has to do with the coherence of the light itself.
I think you can combine all of these things into the volume of the frustum (like a pyramid with the top chopped off) between where the pixel is masked and the projection that actually makes it to the previous layer.
Since people like to buy larger numbers, we just flip it (ie 1/v). This gives a number in 1/um3 they can market.
I’m sure there’s a way for them to rig it, because I just thought of it now
I fdm print now. Really enjoy the builds. I have been looking at resin and think this video answered questions I had about the machines. Thank you 👍 from me.
the fact that the industry gets away with "total pixels" rather than "pixels per inch" is ridiculous.
This involves the inverse square law. In other words if you keep the pixel count the same, but double the size of the screen, it now takes up 4 times the area. Twice as wide and twice as long = 4 times the area. So this makes perfect sense.
QUESTION: Are there any large volume printers, that maintain the smaller voxels (22um x 22 xm x 20um)?
If yes, please list them, or how to find them?
I would like to purchase one with a larger print volume, but with the smaller/smallest voxels.
thx
No, there aren’t.. yet
You could have gotten to the point sooner, but it’d say you have been very clear. The metric they should use is pixel size or pixel density, not an absolute number with no reference. It’s a pretty straightforward concept, I think
I actually found it interesting.
I was thinking I should have got a bigger printer- but as it turns out the smaller ones are actually more detailed??
Keep the videos coming 🙌🙌
Thanks, I guess you are who this video is aimed at
You make some great point... Eventually :D
Although I wouldnt be surprised if there is existing standard approaches to voxel measurement and quality I am too lazy to look (and I dont care enough). But... IF! We assume that a perfect cube is ideal (it might not be) then measuring and displaying skew would be important. Therefore, measuring the um from x/y/x zero to x/y/z max (corner to corner diagonally) would give a single 'size' value which could be balanced by the skew - being the maximum percentage of distortion on any of the axis (or similar or two one for X/Y and horizontal to vertical?).
If only the relative X/Y dimensions were important then similar to above the screen pixel hypotenuse with a skew rating and then a second figure for minimum vertical accuracy.
Oh and the other option I was thinking of was voxel cubic volume, again with a skew metric (if thats even important).
Sorry, this is really aimed at beginners, so I want to make sure 100% what I mean before we delve into it, this is intentionally a slow burn so beginners have time to digest the info.
@@FauxHammerhahaha I get that. My comment about "eventually" was just having a dig.
@@Captn_Grumpy it;s a fair dig, sorry, I've had a lot on whiners on this one. but the slow burn here is intentional as I expect people to be very new, I am pausing a lot in the first half so that people have time to digest it. I forgot we live in a world of 30s videos.
I am in the market for my first
This was a HUGE help and I thank you
I think...
Next step: how much of the resolution survives the non parallel(or slightly diffused) light rays bleeding into each other? At least for x & y axis. That might be another differentiator. Lightsource, masking element and optical path from there into the resin would have influence.
The impression this gives off is that resolution doesn’t matter. It does with regards to screen size. Brands should just make the micron count more obvious. Also I’d rather see more printers with vat heaters and residue detection than perfectly square voxels.
Yeah, that was the point
Great video and I totally agree they need to standardize the way they advertise the printers. Makes shopping for a new one hard for everyone when you have to use a spreadsheet to compare printers.
So im new to the hobby and looking at my first printer. Torn between a cheaper smaller mars 4 and the Saturn 3 budget isnt the issue between the two torn between getting the smaller models which should do everything i need but might need upgrading later and the saturn which might be my one stop shop that will carry me through my whole career any tips or experiences welcome
What are you printing and why?
To be honest, despite the AVC being better on the Mars 4. the Saturn 3 is the sharper and more detailed printer.
Ive been a dungeon master for almost a year ive been using roll20 but am making the switch to minis. So not jusr charater models but scenery like trees tables barrles rocks ect
This is a great thing for the community, thanks!
Glad you think so!
Thanks for making this one, It would be a great step in the right direction for the manufactures to adopt. +1
Glad you think so!
Phrozen Sonic mini 8ks - 22 microns
Mighty 8k - 43 microns
Pretty straight forward. I only know these facts thanks to your channel & a couple others like Vogman.
So cheers
thanks, and you know what, that;s kinda my point. you only know it becasue of me and Vogman, because K is seen everywheremm but AVC or largest pixel size is what matters.
i;m glad you know, but so many people don't
have to agree with you there.. i would rather a screen that was say 5 inches square at 8k then a 10 inch square at 8k always tried to tell the users in my groups that i run this.. 12k screen is no good if its a huge screen.. thank you for bringing out this video :)
you already said the metric and we should use this.. voxel size rather than the k
Great vid Ross and I totally agree with AVC moving forward. One thing though, if my eyes can only see 32K and a bought a 64K coffee table, would I be able to see it?
Thanks, and no. You would not! The world is filled with objects above 32k and we just can’t see them. Ghosts are rendered in 33k for example
i wish manufacturers would make a 20 x 20 x 20 micron printer using whatever size build plate they want but have it always to those values, with a flip top lid or doors, a vat that is heated, 7 inch screen with great UI, force sensing, sensible attachments as in build plate/vat, wifi/ethernet, inbuilt 4k camera, power switches and usb ports in their proper place, auto resin filler /drain, without any mess, several vent holes left right and top so you have a choice with printer position all at a reasonable price, so all up give me a build plate that can easily fit a mando helmut on it in one piece, and a wash and cure station appropriate to that size, then I will be happy
Nice video btw
I completely agree with your points here but, would it be better for brands to just give us the diagonal pixel size (like when we look at TV sizes) and then the minium layer height the printer can do instead of the AVC? that way it won't matter if the pixels are square or rectangualr, you still get a value that is representative of the voxels the printer can produce.
damn, yeah that's smart...
but..... What about height? this works perfectly except it only works in 2-dimensional space. so we are back to measuring the screen of a printer, not the volume of a pixel.
@FauxHammer pair it with the minimum layer height the printer is reliably able to do (probably related to the steps of the z motor) and you have a reliable comparison for printer quality
@@FauxHammer thinking about it more, you could also measure the minium volume a printer could produce from a single pixel and its lowest possible layer height. call it something like the minimum voxel volume
@@larry84903 That is what I have done, and it's the AVC lol. The largest dimension of a single printable voxel, whether that;s X,Y or Z is the AVC
What model are you showing at 15:15? I want that!! Thanks!
what the file name of the demon with wings that you sometimes show and where can i get itTY
This reminds me of the confusion with 2D printers over image PPI vs printer DPI, vs pixel size and pixel resolution, and compared to camera resolution. Complicating this is that a 1440dpi printer is not capable of printing a 1440ppi image, because an inkjet printer can only print in ink droplets. Most of fixed droplet size, some can print a small range of droplet sizes. But in the end, the visibly smooth image is made of a pattern of approximately 240ppi printed as a stochastic (semirandom) fixed droplet sizes of between 4 and 8 ink colors.
That's a great explanation. Does a printer's wavelength make a difference?
Hi hammer, sorry for asking you many questions but this is an important one , can put liquid resin inside plastic containers or it will make the containers crack
I often put it in plastic takeaway tubs without issue
@@user-it7kg3pm4q also the containers are closed and the resin air cant get out, is that a problem?
@@user-it7kg3pm4q what happens if resin self polymerize
@@user-it7kg3pm4q that is not a problem in fact it is more safe, when I am saying I storage resin inside containers I mean toxic waste like papers with liquid resin and unwashed models
Have you put together a list of printers and their voxel measurements? I like the idea of focusing on potential print output quality. I think it could force manufacturers to actually produce higher quality printers not just bumping some bs number. It reminds me of the muscle cars in the 60s when the big 3 kept slapping bigger numbers on the side of the cars.
Bought an Elegoo mars 4 ultra for it's 18x18um pixel size. Need the most detail possible for some small functional parts. Screen resolution only makes sense comparing the same sized screen for sure.
Why aren’t we just saying pixel size? That’s basically what a voxel is. Great video btw
Thanks, because Voxel is the output rendered on the mode. the pixel is the output of a printer component. I'm also considering a future where LCD's have sub 10 Micron pixels, but the z-axis is stuck in increments of 10 Microns.
It’s true a voxel isn’t a pixel, but rather the slightly larger result of the projection. But people might start to understand the bigger picture better. (Pixel size vrs “K” metric is still a major improvement.) I also understand that the way the light is manipulated changes voxel size, but I’m talking marketing not technical specs. I honestly hadn’t thought about z axis not keeping up!
Regardless, good on you to raise community awareness!
@@jasoncompton5280 thanks mate, I am doing what i can.
@@FauxHammer It's only stuck there because the manufacturers limit the software to only move the z-axis in 10 micron steps. I'm not sure what the limits of stepper motors are, and I'm sure that's the biggest factor, but the printer software can be changed if the manufacturers want to go smaller.
Thank you for your video. I did not know that the xyz resolution of a printer is called AVC. And it is true that the k number is irrelevant. And you can find the xy resolution in the technical details for every printer, too. I can only imagine why the printer companies do this. because everybody can imagine what the K number mean but 20 um xy resolution is like a book with seven seals for people starting out with 3d printing
Pixel density matters not pixel count/thread
nope. Voxel Density. Pixel density onmy means... actually, i;m not going to explain here what my video just explained.
Let’s make sure I’m getting this right. It is prefer or best to print as a square a 24um AVF or pixel size would be 24 um layer height this would give you 24 x24 x 24 give you the best print quality.
well, there's variables beyond pixel size and settings, but as a base metric, yeah that would do. assuming the printer is capable of 0.024 on Z
If the best z movement is .036 than you will need to set the print to 36um or they z movement is fast at .019 you would set it at 24um. Looks like you need the AVF size and the z height for a perfect print quality. You should have AVF rating then the AVF print rating due to z height being other limiting factor. Call it AVFZ.
@@windforward9810 there’s no point.
Let’s say we have a future where there’s a printer with 9um pixels. But the minimum step distance is 10um, then the AVC is 10.
But another example, If we have that same printer but the minimum step distance 3.1um, then, then you can have a z height of 9.3um, which more closely matches the pixel size of 9um. But the AVC is still 9, not 9.3.
Because in that example you can still get layers at 3.1 & 6.2. So Z is not the constraint.
The “constraint” is the largest minimum size of the 3 possible dimensions.
@@FauxHammer thanks that cleared it up for me a lot.
See, I knew there was something missing in regards to a "quality" measurement when I was last considering getting a resin printer (I still haven't bought one), and here it is, put right in front of me what I didn't realize was missing. This is great!
Only complaint I have against your video is how it feels like one of those dumb scammy video websites where it talks about some irrelevant crap, jumping between related topics, while promising for over an hour that they're about to explain what it is the person started watching for, and in the very end it just tries to sell you a book or a course on the topic instead of actually explaining it. Kind of an extreme description, but I did have that feeling about 5 minutes in, looked at how long the video was, and bumped it up to 2x speed to finish it faster. This video really could have been taken down to 10 minutes if you kinda just got to the point, and I think people would enjoy watching your videos more if other videos of yours are similar to this one (algorithm recommended this video to me, so I haven't watched others yet).
Fair enough, taken on board
Good idea but how would it be tested to make sure the manufacters are doing what they are advertising? Or, to be cynical, how can marketing manipulate AVC to thier own advantage? One test I have been doing is finding out what is the smallest hole size that can be printed without obstruction and still be dimensionally accurate. This can be easily measured by the guage of wire that can be passed through it.