This was an extremely interesting video. So many people simply swap units out without investigating the root cause. Not only with cars but also with things like dishwashers and domestic appliances. Seeing a teardown like this is great! Such a pity these units are very difficult / impossible to repair. Plastic gears reduce the lifespan significantly but nowadays 3D printing can help with that. Sealing the PCB in the plastic housing is nasty. I'd be so tempted to Dremel that casing and take a look inside. Thanks again for the investigation. I'm off to check out more of your videos.
Damn why is it so complicated. Good old cable worked good perfectly. I think my throttle body is going out. I've cleaned it but the limp mode is occurring more and more frequently.
Hall magnetic motion far more reliable if we compare it to potentiometer that using some brush directly touching the carbon line to detect butterfly movement.
I remember my mom's Clio MK1 1.2, probably a D4F, had once a weird issue with throttle management. The engine, instead of idling would push up to 3000rpm right after starting it and when the gearbox engaged it would go down instantly instead of a smooth deceleration, but going over 3500rpm would also cause the engine to drop rpm and risk to stall. So, in theory, the throttle sensor or body was acting like it was halfway stuck but, when I brought the car to the mech, he showed me that this problem wa due to the battery all along. It was kinda dead, meaning it coulg get to peak Amps to turn the engine on no problem but could not supply the electric system with constant voltage/ampere to operate the throttle sensor correctly. So a battery swap solved the issue. Question: I have a Clio MK1 PH3 1.4 "Ice" from 1996 meaning an Energie (E7J something with ) that unfortunately has still a distributor instead of lose-spark coil pack while the same engine or even mk2 Clios have got this upgrade by default - damn you Renault! Can I simply put a coil-pack to feed the spark plugs on my engine? If yes, how am I supposed to wire the coilpack?
Hello and welcome to the channel. A bad battery can cause all kinds of weird faults and yet still start the car. That's the reason I always try to replace well ahead of total failure. I'm afraid I can't help you with the distributor to coil pack problem I have very little experience with earlier ignition systems. I would say you'll probably be best getting a conversion kit if you want to do it. As although coil packs may have been fitted to the engine later on you will probably need a signal from a sensor your engine wont have. For instance the flywheel TDC sensor on the D4F. Sorry I can't help.
Very grateful for the video, I'm searching a cause of a issue I have in a manual scenic 2 2.0, normally drives fine, but randomly while driving the car won't respond at all to the throttle pedal, and only reacts when the pedal is pressed almost to the floor, then after a few times of this, the car recovers. Watched the app pedal sensor and seems to work fine (one track voltage follows the other) , I will check the throttle body (I believe it's the same one of the video) now, but it's hard to see because this happens randomly. I hope is not the car pcm (it was intervined and changed the wire plugs). Greetings from Chile
I think I found the issue (have to test more). The problems were intermitent lack of power (only had iddle) and regain power by pushing the accelerator pedal to the bottom, and some unstable iddle. The dtc I had mostly were short on both of the lambda sensor and canister valve. After looking for a wiring diagram found that all those 3 (heaters on the lambdas) had the 12 v feed from a relay that came from the engine fuse box (it was manipulated by other people like the pcm), and that relay was feeded 12v by a main relay connected to the first, and In that connection the female connector had some burn deposits (maybe a short, can't tell) and wasn't making good contact, cleaned it and worked today, it still have to continue testing to be sure. French make good cars, but the electronics... Thanks for the replay
@@SocketsAndSideburnsPole here. Car was first sold in Poland. It's a limited version "EXTREME". But only thing extreme about it is that it has features that mechanics with 20 years experience were shocked to find out about. I'll update You on engine and fault codes later
@@SocketsAndSideburns okay so i looked for the engine code but couldn't find it in the place shown in your video. Maybe it corroded beyond recognition. Using a simple obd2 scanner it shows P0400 and P0440 codes. So after looking into it i believe i was wrong thinking it's the EGR. Any tips other then the throttle body?
My pick up truck's throttle plate won't move when accelerating but when engine switch off the plate closes and suddenly open. There's no check engine indicator and it runs smoothly, but sometimes it hesitate and jerk. What could it be the problem?
It should definitely open under acceleration. The movement when switching off is likely a pre-programmed thing for some purpose like ice breaking at ignition on
getting P2100(01) and P0638(77) faults with obd tool, TAC motor open circut, and TAC bank 1 range / pefrormance problem, is that it ? Megane III 2010 1.5dci
Really useful video thanks. I have a D4F Kangoo on 52k miles with a persistent P0638 throttle body fault. I've tried cleaning and then replaced it with a new(er) identical part from a Twingo H8200284968. That did't fix it so replaced the pedal potentiometer assembly, cleaned the crankcase sensor and replaced the thermostat (which was running cool). I've run out of options ! Is it possible that both throttle bodies have the same fault? When monitoring the real time stats when I floor the pedal, the throttle position sensor reads 100% then sometimes drops back to 50% but with change of position of the pedal and no loss of power from the engine, until the fault code gets thrown again (usually 3-30 miles after a reset and throttle body adaptation). Any ideas would be welcome !
Welcome to the channel. It is of course possible that the new part(s) may have the exact same fault but unlikely. I would be inclined to suspect wiring next. I would suggest checking as much as you are able. Another idea would be to refit old parts back on and see if you get this drop to 50% reading when you go wide open throttle. Did you see this live data drop out on the old throttle body also? This is what is causing your code which is basically a discrepancy between what the ECU thinks it should be seeing and what it is seeing. We know that this reading is false as the engine does not lose power we also would not suspect the accelerator pedal at this point as we can be confident the throttle valve is wide open it just isn't reporting it is. Thus I would suspect TPS or wiring.
@@SocketsAndSideburns. I'd be interested to know what your original potentiometer fault code was as the unit you took apart looks identical to mine. This month my Kangoo has been to a Renault specialist and an auto electrician had it for over a fortnight. Neither can remedy the fault. When a failure is triggered, an advanced diagnostic reports this as a TPS potentiometer track 1 open circuit. (whereas my generic code reader can only report P0638). I think it more likely now that the hall effect sensor is damaged on both the original and the replacement part. As these were identical original items perhaps there was a bad batch or tight tolerances left them prone to failure from the slightest internal debris. No fault has been found with the wiring, connectors, relays or the ECU. What's being triggered is the REDUCED PERFORMANCE MODE with a coil light illuminating first, then the EML within a minute or so. Renault throttle valves are driven by an electric motor supplied with 12 volts through an opening cyclic ratio (OCR). Opening is commanded by two inverse information throttle potentiometers (one track increases whilst the other decreases). The throttle body also has dual potentiometers for redundancy, with signals that are linear but with an offset between the two. I have learned that there are three failure modes: 1. Reduced performance. When one of the tracks in the pedal potentiometer or the throttle valve sensors is lost, reduced performance mode is triggered. Reduced performance mode limits the maximum opening of the throttle, reducing acceleration and maximum speed. 2. Electrical backup. Where the accelerator pedal or TPS signals disappear completely, the system enters electrical backup position or limp mode. In this scenario, the ECU imposes an engine speed of 1100 - 1400 rpm regardless of the engine operating phase or throttle position. The brake pedal is used to slow and stop a vehicle in limp mode. 3. Mechanical backup. If the ECU determines a total loss of control of the throttle position, then a mechanical backup position results. In this case the throttle is on the mechanical rest position and the ECU limits the engine speed by cutting fuel injection. So I am off to buy a third throttle body now. I'm getting a Pierburg one which will cost an arm and a leg, but hopefully will fix the problem for good.
I'm afraid I cannot remember the code for this one. I don't believe it was P0638 however. If the whole wiring loom and ECU have been checked then the only thing left to try would be a new throttle body. I use the Pierburg ones, they last. Please let us know how it goes.
@@richardsmeeton8910 Great stuff. If anything the saga you've had just highlights how common this problem is. If you still have either throttle body would be interesting to take them apart and see what's gone on.
Hi mate!! I got a problem with my Clio 1.2 16 valve!! It s show me 2 errors!! Check injection. And second. Check emission !! What you think is wrong with it ???
@@SocketsAndSideburns, I know it was a year ago now but mine is saying the same check injection and emissions, code reader saying throttle body. Can this be symptoms aswell ?
Hey i have a Clio 3 1.2 75 HP 2010 and it has a loos of power especially when going uphill in 4th it drop the speed and also the rpm i have to put it to 3rd to be able to go i have replaced spark plugs coil ignition leads throttle body but it the same could it be fuel pump or fuel injector?
@@SocketsAndSideburns no nothing no codes no check engine light but it is sluggish and i need to step the throttle fully to go uphill and is really annoying
Could be alot of things, first I'd check air filter... depending on service history of course, vacuum leaks, then onto fuel system. After that it will start getting quite involved.
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There's no one on TH-cam who explains things as well as you do while also demonstrating them practically, thank you 👌👍
This was an extremely interesting video. So many people simply swap units out without investigating the root cause. Not only with cars but also with things like dishwashers and domestic appliances. Seeing a teardown like this is great! Such a pity these units are very difficult / impossible to repair. Plastic gears reduce the lifespan significantly but nowadays 3D printing can help with that. Sealing the PCB in the plastic housing is nasty. I'd be so tempted to Dremel that casing and take a look inside.
Thanks again for the investigation. I'm off to check out more of your videos.
You know I honestly didn't even think of cutting open the housing... I may do that after I get though the backlog of other jobs.
Damn why is it so complicated. Good old cable worked good perfectly. I think my throttle body is going out. I've cleaned it but the limp mode is occurring more and more frequently.
All of this instead of a simple cable operation... My car is at 75k, now you got me worried that the throttle body might fail anytime soon :'D
Don't watch this near your Clio, might give it ideas.
@@SocketsAndSideburns was the flap opening but the ecu not reading it. Or was the flap not working 🤔
Hall magnetic motion far more reliable if we compare it to potentiometer that using some brush directly touching the carbon line to detect butterfly movement.
I remember my mom's Clio MK1 1.2, probably a D4F, had once a weird issue with throttle management. The engine, instead of idling would push up to 3000rpm right after starting it and when the gearbox engaged it would go down instantly instead of a smooth deceleration, but going over 3500rpm would also cause the engine to drop rpm and risk to stall. So, in theory, the throttle sensor or body was acting like it was halfway stuck but, when I brought the car to the mech, he showed me that this problem wa due to the battery all along. It was kinda dead, meaning it coulg get to peak Amps to turn the engine on no problem but could not supply the electric system with constant voltage/ampere to operate the throttle sensor correctly. So a battery swap solved the issue.
Question: I have a Clio MK1 PH3 1.4 "Ice" from 1996 meaning an Energie (E7J something with ) that unfortunately has still a distributor instead of lose-spark coil pack while the same engine or even mk2 Clios have got this upgrade by default - damn you Renault! Can I simply put a coil-pack to feed the spark plugs on my engine? If yes, how am I supposed to wire the coilpack?
Hello and welcome to the channel.
A bad battery can cause all kinds of weird faults and yet still start the car. That's the reason I always try to replace well ahead of total failure.
I'm afraid I can't help you with the distributor to coil pack problem I have very little experience with earlier ignition systems. I would say you'll probably be best getting a conversion kit if you want to do it. As although coil packs may have been fitted to the engine later on you will probably need a signal from a sensor your engine wont have. For instance the flywheel TDC sensor on the D4F.
Sorry I can't help.
Thank you for this comment, might help me a lot as I experience exacly the same problem. Will try the battery first.
Can you tell me if you measure across the throttle flap motor what the resistance is?
It is pins 5 & 6 on the throttle body connector
Very grateful for the video, I'm searching a cause of a issue I have in a manual scenic 2 2.0, normally drives fine, but randomly while driving the car won't respond at all to the throttle pedal, and only reacts when the pedal is pressed almost to the floor, then after a few times of this, the car recovers. Watched the app pedal sensor and seems to work fine (one track voltage follows the other) , I will check the throttle body (I believe it's the same one of the video) now, but it's hard to see because this happens randomly. I hope is not the car pcm (it was intervined and changed the wire plugs). Greetings from Chile
Does it nearly stall out if left to idle for a long time?
I think I found the issue (have to test more). The problems were intermitent lack of power (only had iddle) and regain power by pushing the accelerator pedal to the bottom, and some unstable iddle. The dtc I had mostly were short on both of the lambda sensor and canister valve. After looking for a wiring diagram found that all those 3 (heaters on the lambdas) had the 12 v feed from a relay that came from the engine fuse box (it was manipulated by other people like the pcm), and that relay was feeded 12v by a main relay connected to the first, and In that connection the female connector had some burn deposits (maybe a short, can't tell) and wasn't making good contact, cleaned it and worked today, it still have to continue testing to be sure. French make good cars, but the electronics... Thanks for the replay
Excellent video.
I have EGR valve fault codes in mine 1.2 16v would You be kind enough to make a video about cleaning one on your Clio?
Hi there, unfortunately this 1.2 16v does not have a EGR fitted on this car. What year is your Clio?
@@SocketsAndSideburns Hey, thanks for your reply. It's a 2003
If you are in the UK then none of the petrol models from that time had an EGR fitted as best as I can remember. Curious. What exactly is the code?
@@SocketsAndSideburnsPole here. Car was first sold in Poland. It's a limited version "EXTREME". But only thing extreme about it is that it has features that mechanics with 20 years experience were shocked to find out about. I'll update You on engine and fault codes later
@@SocketsAndSideburns okay so i looked for the engine code but couldn't find it in the place shown in your video. Maybe it corroded beyond recognition. Using a simple obd2 scanner it shows P0400 and P0440 codes. So after looking into it i believe i was wrong thinking it's the EGR. Any tips other then the throttle body?
My pick up truck's throttle plate won't move when accelerating but when engine switch off the plate closes and suddenly open. There's no check engine indicator and it runs smoothly, but sometimes it hesitate and jerk. What could it be the problem?
It should definitely open under acceleration. The movement when switching off is likely a pre-programmed thing for some purpose like ice breaking at ignition on
getting P2100(01) and P0638(77) faults with obd tool, TAC motor open circut, and TAC bank 1 range / pefrormance problem, is that it ? Megane III 2010 1.5dci
Being a diesel I would first check you actually have a throttle body fitted.
Really useful video thanks. I have a D4F Kangoo on 52k miles with a persistent P0638 throttle body fault. I've tried cleaning and then replaced it with a new(er) identical part from a Twingo H8200284968. That did't fix it so replaced the pedal potentiometer assembly, cleaned the crankcase sensor and replaced the thermostat (which was running cool). I've run out of options ! Is it possible that both throttle bodies have the same fault? When monitoring the real time stats when I floor the pedal, the throttle position sensor reads 100% then sometimes drops back to 50% but with change of position of the pedal and no loss of power from the engine, until the fault code gets thrown again (usually 3-30 miles after a reset and throttle body adaptation). Any ideas would be welcome !
Welcome to the channel.
It is of course possible that the new part(s) may have the exact same fault but unlikely.
I would be inclined to suspect wiring next. I would suggest checking as much as you are able.
Another idea would be to refit old parts back on and see if you get this drop to 50% reading when you go wide open throttle. Did you see this live data drop out on the old throttle body also? This is what is causing your code which is basically a discrepancy between what the ECU thinks it should be seeing and what it is seeing.
We know that this reading is false as the engine does not lose power we also would not suspect the accelerator pedal at this point as we can be confident the throttle valve is wide open it just isn't reporting it is. Thus I would suspect TPS or wiring.
@@SocketsAndSideburns. I'd be interested to know what your original potentiometer fault code was as the unit you took apart looks identical to mine. This month my Kangoo has been to a Renault specialist and an auto electrician had it for over a fortnight. Neither can remedy the fault. When a failure is triggered, an advanced diagnostic reports this as a TPS potentiometer track 1 open circuit. (whereas my generic code reader can only report P0638). I think it more likely now that the hall effect sensor is damaged on both the original and the replacement part. As these were identical original items perhaps there was a bad batch or tight tolerances left them prone to failure from the slightest internal debris. No fault has been found with the wiring, connectors, relays or the ECU. What's being triggered is the REDUCED PERFORMANCE MODE with a coil light illuminating first, then the EML within a minute or so.
Renault throttle valves are driven by an electric motor supplied with 12 volts through an opening cyclic ratio (OCR).
Opening is commanded by two inverse information throttle potentiometers (one track increases whilst the other decreases). The throttle body also has dual potentiometers for redundancy, with signals that are linear but with an offset between the two.
I have learned that there are three failure modes:
1. Reduced performance. When one of the tracks in the pedal potentiometer or the throttle valve sensors is lost, reduced performance mode is triggered.
Reduced performance mode limits the maximum opening of the throttle, reducing acceleration and maximum speed.
2. Electrical backup. Where the accelerator pedal or TPS signals disappear completely, the system enters electrical backup position or limp mode.
In this scenario, the ECU imposes an engine speed of 1100 - 1400 rpm regardless of the engine operating phase or throttle position.
The brake pedal is used to slow and stop a vehicle in limp mode.
3. Mechanical backup. If the ECU determines a total loss of control of the throttle position, then a mechanical backup position results.
In this case the throttle is on the mechanical rest position and the ECU limits the engine speed by cutting fuel injection.
So I am off to buy a third throttle body now. I'm getting a Pierburg one which will cost an arm and a leg, but hopefully will fix the problem for good.
I'm afraid I cannot remember the code for this one. I don't believe it was P0638 however.
If the whole wiring loom and ECU have been checked then the only thing left to try would be a new throttle body. I use the Pierburg ones, they last.
Please let us know how it goes.
Fitting a Pierberg throttle body has fixed it ! It turns out the original one and the OEM replacement both had faulty TPS.
@@richardsmeeton8910 Great stuff. If anything the saga you've had just highlights how common this problem is. If you still have either throttle body would be interesting to take them apart and see what's gone on.
Mine is making a loud beeping noise is this normal
Yes they do make a lot of noise.
Thanks 👍👍👍
Hi mate!! I got a problem with my Clio 1.2 16 valve!! It s show me 2 errors!! Check injection. And second. Check emission !! What you think is wrong with it ???
I would get a code reader and see what codes it has set so you can get some direction.
@@SocketsAndSideburns, I know it was a year ago now but mine is saying the same check injection and emissions, code reader saying throttle body. Can this be symptoms aswell ?
@@Justme-s1d What codes are in the ECU?
Hey i have a Clio 3 1.2 75 HP 2010 and it has a loos of power especially when going uphill in 4th it drop the speed and also the rpm i have to put it to 3rd to be able to go i have replaced spark plugs coil ignition leads throttle body but it the same could it be fuel pump or fuel injector?
Have you got any codes?
@@SocketsAndSideburns no nothing no codes no check engine light but it is sluggish and i need to step the throttle fully to go uphill and is really annoying
Could be alot of things, first I'd check air filter... depending on service history of course, vacuum leaks, then onto fuel system. After that it will start getting quite involved.
@@SocketsAndSideburns thanks for replying, i have replaced air filter but i think it's running in lean condition could it be a fault in fuel system?