ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ค. 2018
- Now I never have to think, play or talk about this game again.
Sonic Forces is a game of multi-faceted shortcomings that fails to live up to it's predecessors such as Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Generations, setting a record low for the boost gameplay, and being released alongside Sonic Mania only helped to exemplify all these things.
Today I want to examine what could've been done to give us the game we should've got.
Sorry for not getting this out on Friday like I promised, I had some footage issues I ran into. - เกม
![เกิดใหม่ทั้งทีก็เป็นสไลม์ไปซะแล้ว ซีซั่น 3 - ตอนที่ 57 [ซับไทย]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pNhft3YZFRE/mqdefault.jpg)
"Passionless" is a good way to put it ...
It just doesn't feel like the people making Forces really gave a shit.
I mean, when most critics are basically yelling that their wildly-varying opinions are the sole reason why the series is failing, why give a shit about doing their best when they'll be put down for making another "bad" game?
Maybe if we back off a bit, the Sonic series may experiment more and, who knows, it might be the new "boost formula."
Exactly. Plus the development team of the game were mostly new hires since Sega let go of the old ones during their reconstruction
@@glacierwolf2155 agreed.
I mean the music was pretty good, not 06 and Unleashed levels of good but it was nice music
Sonic Adventure DX: Tails takes down Various Chaos forms
Sonic Forces: Tails can't take down Chaos Zero
Why SADX? ya got something wrong with the Dreamcast Version??
@@username0131 the hell does that have to do with anything? Its the same game
@@bambanmangaka8034 ik but why use sadx? why not use the original
@@username0131 does it matter?
@@bambanmangaka8034 to me? yeah
I actually love these ideas. I see a lot of "reviews" just crap on the game and slap a number on it, so I love seeing an extremely constructive way of criticizing it. Much more productive than 90% of what other people talk about. Very smart and well put together
Honestly wasn't expecting u here. Can I have a free cardboard silver? xD
Peter Knetter; Hey, Peter! Good to see ya! Love your videos, dude.
I agree, this is a much more professional way to critique something. And the ideas are really cool too. Way more effective and positive than most of the other videos out there. This guy is my hero! C:
I just realised you’re verified now. Congrats!
You da best
While I agree that a lot of professional reviews tend to have lackluster writing (not to mention a myriad of other problems), Bani goes into detail on ways Forces could have been improved; I don't believe all critique has to go to that length.
If "If that sounds familiar, it should" sounds familiar, it should
Why are you here!!!? Btw I love your channel
hotdiggedydemon
If “If “If that sounds familiar, it should” sounds familiar, it should” sounds familiar, it should.
@@PlushMaker400 if "if "if that sounds familiar, it should" sounds familiar, it should" sounds familiar, it should
Andy Thy Is
Welp... looks like we’ll be stuck in this loop for a while...
... damn, should’ve brought some popcorn.
@@Andi_Thy_Is if "if "if "if that sounds familiar, it should" sounds familiar, it should" sounds familiar, it should", sounds familiar, it should
Nurse: Sir you've been in a coma since 2017.
Em. Bani: Oh boy I can't wait to play my *new favorite 3d Sonic game!*
what? I don't get it
Damn, now I really want to play Sonic's Animal Farm Dating Simulator & Knuckles
You forgot the “3” after “Simulator”.
@anonagon How would that work? Sonic defeats Eggman and then becomes a dictator like Eggman or what?
Everything is better wit Knuckles
@@ahatt96 at the very least that game would have guts
I believe Sonic's torture was the fact of being held in captivity for months, and Tails gave up on fighting after Sonic was presumed dead. The way the script handles this is very awkward and makes these facts seem more fanciful than they are.
Still, Sonic should be weak (and claustrophobic) after being held in captivity, and in Sonic Adventure 1 and 2, Sega actually made it some sort of point about Tails's character that he wouldn't give up despite not having Sonic.
Actually if you play the "cutscene" in the World Map prior to stage 4 in Japanese Rouge never mentions Sonic was being tortured and instead says that Eggman has kept Sonic alive so that he could witness the fall of the Resistence from a position he couldn't help his friends and THEN kill his arch-enemy which is why Sonic was still in good shape after being six months prisoner. The "torture" comes from the localized (english) version of Sonic Forces written by Ken Pontac and Warren Graff, while the japanese script never used the word "torture".
@@tomasgomeziglesias6769 I am aware of that fact. But Sonic should most definitely not be in good shape after being caged for 6 months.
What I'm saying is the context isn't really.
"Eggman's been torturing Sonic for months"
It's
"Eggman has caged Sonic for months, that sounds like torture!" But whoever wrote the script screwed it up.
@@originalcharacter2470 I just remembered that Sonic does say in the sixth stage that he doesn't do well in tight spaces so yeah maybe that was indeed the torture he may have went through, but yeah with Sonic acting like if he was mostly fine throughout stages 5 and 6 after being trapped for six months does seem weird, and the fact that the localized version describes his imprisonment as torture only makes it more awkward.
Maybe that’s why he bonds with your Avatar since your avatar and Sonic are more scared then ever for the future of the world
@@Iam-cz1ot no, that's called bad writing.
The whole "oh classic sonic is an alt. universe" thing bugs the HELL out of me. Instead of trying to infuse 3D sonic with any sort of aesthetic or narrative cohesion with the old more cutsy classic sonic style , they essentially cash out, throw their hands in the air, and tell us the long legged Sonic we've been playing as for TWENTY god-damn years is not the same character so many people grew up with when they were kids. What a slap in the face. It reminds of the infamous Spider Man clone saga in how astonishingly tone-deaf and disrespectful it is to people who actually want to see this franchise find some semblance of an identity again.
Aside from even that nerdy-as-hell pedantic outrage, it retroactively makes Sonic Generations *worse* narratively and aesthetically by rendering its novel premise of past-meets-future utterly moot. "Hey, Sonic! Enjoy your future! It's gonna be great!" he says, lying. How the fuck do you know, modern Sonic? You're not talking to your past self, he's just some random guy to you.
... i know it's not necessary at this point; but i'd like to point out that modern sonic was, and still is, the classic sonic we've grown up with but the "classic sonic" they've been shoving into our faces lately has been a different sonic since generations made a new timeline for classic due to it's events.
@@modelomegatyler Yeah, way too many people didn't thought 2 seconds about the fact that he's just from another world since Generations, like is time travel so hard to comprehend?
@@NintenSegaPlay apparently so. though i imagine them calling it a "dimension" rather than "timeline" didn't help either.
I can't take anything seriously after seeing that cutscene where silver grabs three people then everyone else in eggman's army just freeze frame after a couple seconds.
@@NintenSegaPlay Sonic Team cant keep continuity for anything
It’s honestly sad that the fans know what Sonic should be better than Sonic team themselves.
@Lilac Milton It could have been a new and dark twist if it weren't for the writers. I've hated the story directions they've taken all the way since colours and honestly it isn't really working. I really miss the more serious takes on the characters and world found in the adventure series and unleashed. Such a shame...
TL;DR sonic is basically megaman with humans as animals and badnicks as Mavericks, take things too seriously and you get garbage like shadow the hedgehog, shove irony and jokes into everything and we get “sonic forces” us to stomach writing that’s straight out of an Amy Schumer Netflix special. Gameplay may vary but I think it should be a consecutive formula of everything we’ve learned so far instead a frustrating game of hot potato with lackluster game mechanics.
Tyf;R
Honestly everyone knows what sonic is, fun and speed.
The speed part is obvious but the “fun” part is all in the context of the universe, sonic and friends interact with cliche but admirable character quirks while the plot simultaneously respects the unfortunate/dire situation they’re in and has the characters do so as well, that’s what EVERY sonic game roughly is and the games that stick closest to that schtick are the ones that people generally argee are good .
That’s because thats what sonic was built on, being a high energy, snarky do-gooder vs an egotistical, enslaving, smartass with a goal of obtaining complete superiority through slave labor, but the problem is that people don’t see the “fun” the “sonic the confident optimist in the face of overwhelming dire circumstances” what they see is “wacky, go go, haha, quirk jokes!” Or edgy, semi-realistic, existential drool that hits pretentious faster than a reddit post about religion, the desire for one or the other constantly shifts him back and forth between two themes when there’s supposed to be a balance, sending him and the franchise further into insanity.
Gameplay wise I think they just need to stop pulling names out of a hat and actually try to combine all the gameplay mechanics they’ve come up with in a cohesive way, my take on it would be adventure style as a base with physics, maneuverability and all, boost gameplay for invigorating and speedy gameplay but with multiple pathways that lead you areas that have things you can collect and secrets you can activate, and throw in some optional 2D segments in there for good measure and bam you have something that would be a commendable attempt to evolve sonic beyond the absolute dumpster fire of a franchise he’s been for the last decade or so.
Oh, and for the LOVE OF *GOD* _PLEASE_ GIVE US FULL CONTROL OF THE DAMN CAMERA!
Thank you for coming to my ted talk.
ikr? Sonic fans needs to be hired, for it seems that Sonic team are running out of ideas
"So Sonic and his friends have to liberate the world from Eggman's rule."
"Wow, that seems pretty difficult."
"It's actually super easy, barely an inconvenience."
"Oh really?"
Sonic: Just boost into his robots that's it.
Ahh a Pitch Meeting reference, I see you're a man of culture as well.
EH😂
"Oh crumbs, we couldn't fix our franchise."
-Sega
"Tell me a joke."
"Knuckles Chaotix is an underrated classic."
SAVAGE
Honestly I think the only problem it has is level design, everything else is great. The combi ring has a bit of a learning curve and its slightly jank, but the music, art, characters you play as (charmy needs a nerf tho), and story concepts are all fantastic imho
@@mvnkycheez The only reason the level design is so wack is to accommodate the combi ring. If they were to ever do another attempt at it, they should rework the combi ring.
@@blackdot105 Nah, it's not _only_ because of the combi ring.
There's also the issue of each zone having 5 acts that all feel more or less exactly the same to play, when even 3 acts like in the original Sonic the Hedgehog feels like too many (hence virtually every other Sonic game having just 2).
And then there's the issue that you play through levels in a random order, so the game isn't able to have a proper difficulty curve. No zone can reasonably throw anything much more complex than what you see in the tutorial level at you, since that could be the first zone you play.
...And then there's the time of day system, where time cycles through morning>day>evening>night based on how much time was spent in the previous act. Time of day affects enemy placement and sometimes enemy behavior. It's highly unlikely that enemies have been carefully placed in sensible locations that complement the level design for all 4 variants of all 25 main levels, and you very much feel that playing the game. Enemies feel almost placed at random.
Playing chaotix in sonic 1 and 2 proves that it could’ve been so much better if they stayed with the normal formula
What pisses me off the most about the game developing was that 3 developers worked on this. Two being lost world developers and one new guy who never made a sonic game until this one.
Actually, 2/3 of the developers were new.
3 level designers, not developers. Your comment is incredibly misleading.
I think you got that backwards
@@2saph2lose28 yeah
How to fix Sonic Forces:
1. (Obviously) Make the levels longer or add more locations.
2. Have special missions with a different character in each mission so they won't be useless or just have an option to play different characters in past levels.
3. Use all of the bosses! Not just Zavok and Chaos, but all of the Deadly Six, all of Chaos' forms, and even bosses from other past games.
4. Don't forget the Chaos Emeralds! Fans want to play as Super Sonic in the story, not just as a DLC.
How to ACTUALLY fix Forces
1) Add back the spindash for modern sonic
2) Add Chao Garden
3) Fix Physics
4) Remove Classic Sonic
5) Hard Bosses
6) Silver As a playable Character (No Custom OC)
7) Better Soundtrack
8) More Enemies So the same Enemies Won't be seen EveryTime
9) And Finally *NO GOD DAMN DOUBLE JUMP*
How to actually actually fix sonic forces:
1.Rerelease Generations
2. Profit
How to fix Sonic Forces:
1. Add a free roam
2. Make levels longer
3. Add new gameplay abilities so like digging for those red star collectibles
4. Make levels unlock able by doing tasks in free roam
5. Increase the species and coloring in the OC creator
6. More In-Depth cutscenes
7. Levels with different characters instead of just sonic. Maybe a level with OC and knuckles
8. More bosses like chaos, the deadly six, shadow, dr. Eggman (classic)
I mostly loved the idea that the levels took place within the zones, and that the zones were not levels but in fact locations within the Sonic world. I would love an open world based on this, emulating the way acts were handled in S3&K.
It's metal sonic not chaos
Something about the story in Forces makes me feel like they were trying to make a game based on the Archie/TV show storyline with the Freedom Fighters, but the writers tried to do that without even looking at how the comics actually handled it.
You could literally remove this game from existence and nothing would change. It adds nothing to Sonic's discography.
But then you get rid of gadget and I don't think my heart can take it, Sega pls make his own character outside of "he's the place holder for the custom character" stick
Let him be shy awkward kid he is! (Or at least I headcanon he is)
One problem I have without even playing it, is that the background of cutscenes are filled with lifeless, plastic-y characters just like the avatar.
The Avatar, and all the extras, feel so lifeless and pointless
Da Nintendude they might as well make them t posed
Da Nintendude; Sad, but true.
My favorite moment is when we see them in the background of the Zavok fight, imprisoned.
And then later blown up with the Death Egg. And nobody brought up or even remembered it. Not even Sonic Team.
That is how I also felt.
@Aidan Tiffany That would be cool you use those characters random in a hub area and then when it ends use all of them in the front line and the others as the ones more in the background.
Has anyone figured out why Sonic's allies, especially Tails, have become so worthless?
Because of Modern Sonic Team's direction for Sonic. Pontac & Graff suck at writing, & Sega doesn't even realize how bad Sonic's characterization has become. The series has been reduced to a jokefest because of those 2 writers who were hired despite knowing almost nothing about the series. After 06 rather than take responsibility & acknowledge it was poorly received because of how severely rushed it was someone at Sega thought to use the characters as scapegoats despite how liked they were by fans.
They had promise after heroes but took a hit after sonic 06 and they didn't do much in generations but forces lowered the bar even further as far as critics were concerned.
Because of the "Sonic's shitty friends" crowd who are frankly playing the wrong franchise, they want only Sonic to be playable. and no one else, hell. even if Sonic's friends had the exact same play-style as him while still retaining their own unique abilities (Tails can fly, Knuckles and Rouge can dig, Shadow has Chaos Blast and Chaos Control, Blaze has her pyrokinesis etc) those people wouldn't be pleased, I 100% bet you this.
Its just sad even the comics uses them better with forces background.
Because SEGA and Sonic Team took the “Sonic’s shitty friends” crowd too literally, so they are made shitty and worthless.
In regards to the whole “perfectly fine after months of torture” thing:
There’s being like Disney’s Cinderella, choosing to be positive in the face of adversity as a coping mechanism, and then there’s this completely inappropriate reaction.
Sonic could’ve had a story arc centering around dealing with trauma. I can see him try to mask it with upbeat positivity, but it would have to break eventually. Maybe he breaks down upon encountering the ruined green hill, and just seeing how everything he once knew and loved had been taken away from him. That would’ve made such an emotional moment.
We could’ve seen him display signs of ptsd from the experience. We don’t know what exactly happened when he was being tortured (I’m picturing being electrocuted, dunked underwater, pluck his quills, or just locked up in a tiny room (that would sure stress him)), so we have room to play here. Maybe try giving him a trigger. Could be something related directly to a torture technique, or maybe a sound or visual queue that means he’s about to go through something unpleasant. Let him flinch. Let him hesitate. Let him experience those flashbacks.
And then let him try to overcome them.
Other characters would be important here. It helps irl to have a support system, and it would thematically tie in better to those friendship speeches (which need a less cringey writer).
Original the Character could be someone he’d learn to be comfortable with confiding in, and share some stories. It’s good to get things off ones chest. The resistance could learn of the trigger and would respect this, warning him when it might come up.
See, the point of a trigger warning is not to label something as mildly unpleasant, like what meme culture has done with it. No, it’s a heads up for ptsd survivors. Its basically saying, “hey! This thing that reminds you of that traumatic thing is coming up. Do you think you can handle it?” If the person (or I guess hedgehog) in question is not emotionally ready to face their trauma, this is the opportunity to politely leave. No need to cause a scene. If the hedgehog is ready, proceed with caution. The exposure happens little by little, at a pace set by the victim in question. Trigger warnings help to deal with trauma. It gets easier to muscle through it over time. One may not fully recover from their trauma in their lifetime, but these things can help with the healing process. Some progress is better than no progress.
I’m picturing the resistance would be cautious around the trigger in question. Then there’d be a scene where the TW comes up, and sonic is like “it’s okay. I think I can deal with it”. From that point onward we’d basically be watching him be on a road to recovery.
PTSD is a very real issue that doesn’t seem to be taken very seriously these days. I mostly blame meme culture. A common demographic for this just so happen to be war veterans. There is a very easy parallel to be drawn here. I think it would also be pretty inspirational to be playing a game and to see this hero going through such a thing. It kinda makes Sonic feel a little more real. It also shows that, hey, it’s okay if you’re struggling a little right now. It gets better, so take your time. You know when you’re ready. Too often people with ptsd (or just mental illness in general honestly) may feel guilty for having it in the first place; that they’re an inconvenience to those around them, or that because someone else has it worse, their problems don’t matter. It can be very defeating when dealing with mental illness if simply having it in the first place makes you feel guilty or at fault. I think it’d be pretty inspirational to not only see Sonic dealing with ptsd and healing from a traumatic experience, but also setting the pace and taking control of his situation. It’s easy to feel frustrated and out of control when your brain starts pulling this sort of shit on you (yes, we are fully aware of what’s going on and are just as frustrated as you), and I just don’t see this represented pretty much ever. Too many nuerotypicals seem to be under the false belief that mental illness is just something you can will away, or that it can be cured with a yoga class. That’s not how it works, you’re just being insensitive.
But if themes of PTSD arnt your cup of tea, I’d say my minimum requirement is to at least see Sonic be vulnerable. Have him feel down. Have his own hope be lost. Have him feel like a failure, and leave it to Original the Character and crew try to restore his spirit. It’s cheesy, and usually these kinds of things arnt fixed up by a magical speech irl, but it’s better than flat out nothing.
This sounds very amazing!
Granted, a bit too dark, I think this idea would work best with the PTSD thing being subtle than being a direct correlation to it, like how cartoons or games for all audiences tackle dark stuff but they don’t directly mention the dark thing, but all of this sounds definitely like the tone Sonic Forces was suppose to be, a more darker serious story.
And the fact that this game is about war, it’s sorta strange to not see any sort of talk about the traumas that happens in war. Sure, this is a kids game and whatnot, but as previously mentioned, kids games and shows still use more heavier topics for stories. Hell, for God’s sake, Sonic himself has had more serious stories like Gamma’s story and essentially almost the entire story of SA2. I feel like if this game was given to more better writers, this game’s story could’ve been a bit like your idea
-and call me a sadist but I enjoy seeing a very happy fictional character crack, idk why maybe I’m just interested as to how they would return to normal-
I really like this idea.
I myself would've wanted to at least see a bit of blood here and there, and Sonic breaking down. I wish Sonic would express more emotion rather than just "cocky and sarcastic".
I would've _loved_ that honestly, but you know SEGA - "it's weird ot have Sonic express other emotions than crippling joy"
op this is super good, i really think sonic should be able to express more emotions rather than being this unshakably happy flat character. sonic's been serious before, especially in the adventure games, so i think it's interesting to flesh this side of him out more.
as good as this idea would be, the whole "torture" thing was apparently a dubism for the english version
Neat video, but I personally think the whole Phantom Ruby and Classic/Mania tie in is a really cool concept that really couldn't be just put to the wayside. You touched on it a little bit with the whole worlds merging thing but the whole Ruby thing, if given proper care, could have added an entirely new dimension of intrigue to the story as well.
Not only that, but like everyone's favorite game, Sonic 3 & Knuckles, it would have also made for the glorious return of Lock-On Technology - you could get levels from Forces in Mania and vice versa.
The Phantom Ruby could have been the key to making a real sequel to Generations, where Eggman managed to find a way to mess with spacetime and use that to successfully take over the world.
Love your goofy mashup songs
Everyone's favorite game? Mine is gens and sonic 2 combined
Ghost Town with Mania controls and gameplay?
How did SEGA miss out on something like this?
Maybe it could be written that the events of sonic mania happened in the past, so sonic forces would basically be the return of an old threat that’s even stronger than before. (At least, that’s how I’m writing it in my rewrite…)
Sonic imprisoned for a year while the world was burning below him was happier and more jokey than sonic in prison island for a day or two... It's more than the overall story faults, they don't understand something as fundamental as Sonic himself......
Why do we keep these writers again?
Because Iizuka suffers from mental illness, he probably doesn't even realize how badly Pontac & Graff have hurt the Sonic series. He was confirmed to be unable to remember half of the things he says & does these days. Pontac & Graff hurt Sonic's reputation far more than 06 ever did by the point Lost Worlds came out, & they are probably still writing the story for Team Sonic Racing.
@WaterKirby1994
Do you have a source for Iizuka being mentally ill, or is that just an unsubstantiated rumor that got circulated around message boards until people thought it was real?
WaterKirby1994 Are you just injecting your dislike for Sonic’s voice actor into every comment questioning why SEGA keeps their shite writers? I’m pretty sure I’ve read this on a different thread?
You're not gonna like what I'm gonna say, but it must be said.
Shrek 4 had a better "take over the world and resistance" story.
No I am not kidding.
*AN ABSOLUTLEY STUNNING OBSERVATION*
Which is sad when you think about it..
Lucas M Incoming sonic fanbase. Grabbing my popcorn hehe xd
I agree
*/!\Angry mob inbound/!\*
Few point to Improve the scenario:
Show don't tell:
- How did Eggman take over the world
- How is it to live under eggman.
-How every Sonic Friends are coping
- How is Sonic treated in Prison.
- What Custom the character lived before joining the resistance.
- How Infinite came to be ?
As for the Scenario:
It could be interesting if Infinite anx Custom new each other, and were Friends or rival. Maybe part of the same mercenary band.
Maybe Custom would join the resistance to save his Friend kidnapped by Eggman.
Also, Silver could've come from the future because his future would have been ruined again, but it would have been a different Silver.
Explaining what is the phantom Ruby, How Eggman did find it ? Correctly define its power ?
Where are the chaos Emerald?
Why are the wisps back?
Gameplay wise:
Sonic and Shadow have speed section, full 3D.
Custom has slower pace infiltration mission. For exemple he could have infiltrated the Death Egg to release sonic. I mean he/she did but it doesn't feel like an infiltration.
Also more plateforming and puzzle.
Remove the double boost, totally useless.
Let us play as other characters.
Knuckles and Amy as beats em all on battlefields.
Rouge and Espio as infiltration with custom.
Tails in his mech or in his plane or in puzzle game play.
Game design wise: more location, a hub where you can access different place in the world.
And I have other ideas....
i know because everyone is pathtic because they are amazing butwithout a sonic the ar for some reason worthless
That was one of the biggest problems with this game overall, it told you this and that was happening, but you never get to see it. For example, Amy says 80% of the army is killed and such, but it doesn’t feel like some sort of sad moment, a moment of losing hope or anything like that. And with that dialogue being told in a level where everything is all bright and empty, it makes it even harder to believe something terribly bad happened
You like the answer we got for Infinite? Lol
Use the world established in Unleashed (but adding both humans and 'mobians', I would just ditch the whole two worlds thing since it only creates more problems) to add more continuity but also see how Eggman might have conquered all these countries and rebuild them in his image (giant statues, flags with his logo on them, everything looking more mechanical and stuff).
@@andrewsd.r.7180 makes sense. But I guess this is was they wanted to show in green hill zone. Now polluted and dried out of water.
I was never personally part of that "what shouldn't be in a Sonic game" crowd. Even with Shadow the Hedgehog and it's "oh dear" guns and edge, I've always blamed poor quality on the individual assets that make the game unfun and/or uninteresting, not on whether or not it's basic concepts "should have ever existed in a precious Sonic game". Ironically, and to the point, the most fun gameplay feature of Shadow the Hedgehog was the guns, and the platforming and 'kill X number of enemies' features were what was of poor quality.
And yes, Sonic 06 was bad because of the gameplay, bugs, and some poor story development (though that was many shades better than what is in Forces), not because a human girl kissed Sonic eewwwwww interspecies cooties. Look at Who framed Roger Rabbit, that had interspecies relations and people love that movie. What's the difference? Writing quality, not the basic concepts.
This video legit made me angry due to the potential that Forces had.
Honestly, I think it's time for a change of formula. Give Sonic spinoffs and whatnot the spotlight while the main series takes a hiatus for awhile.
NotQuiteHere
We tried that.
Sonic storybook games
Never again.
If we get another spin-off, I'd love to see a rhythm game. Cuz we know Sonic can dance.
That's what happened between Generations and Forces
Melon Tart VA top 10 please no moments
Yes. Time for another TRUE Riders sequel.
Sega really needs more people to construct ideas for their games
NOOOOO
Correction only the fans of sonic can make a good sonic game
They should invite fans, since they are doing TERRIBLE (well not fully terrible, I still like Forces and 06) to make the story make sense and making other games canon, especially making the perfect design, making longer levels and making things of what SEGA wants, and not what the fans want. So if SEGA had a choice when ANOTHER game is very terrible (or not terrible), SEGA should decide to let the fans work for them, or let the company work on their own.
@@Ayman-fs3rc shut up,thats not right dude..
And better people making the levels
The part you mentioned about Sonic being tortured or Tails losing it was more of a problem with the translation adding unnecessary things to seem more edgy than it actually is.
Your criticism about showing the actions of the characters still applies though. It defiantly needed something more like "Tails gone missing" and "Sonic being captured" like the Japanese dub had.
I know Thats what i'm Saying thats innecesary
Two years later and I seem to have forgotten this game entirely. Your version sounds so much more memorable.
I really like this rewrite, especially the part where you talk about the color scheme and how it by itself could have furthered the latent themes of the game. That just seems like it'd be really impressively jaw-dropping to see and play
I'm not sure if this video was inspiring, depressing because of how right it is, or both.
RarefoilB I'd say more depressing. Because it feels like Em. Bani himself was trying to stiffle his own ideas, despite calling out the critics and fandoms on doing that to the series.
It has vapourwave vibes, of course its depressing
The Den this is his take on how to do the series better. Of course it’s going to have his own ideas. And I believe he was referring more on the fact that the Sonic fandom is constantly indecisive on what they want and never take in mind some of the merits some of the games have (like Sonic Unleashed, for example. I remember back in the day most people in the fandom shitted on it just because of the night levels without pointing out the day levels and how good they were with the implementation of the boost mechanic and how the story was good. Not bad or excellent, but it was still a good story with a nice soundtrack and most bosses being excellent).
Knight Owl Rather than indecisive, the Sonic fandom is splintered in too many damn factions. Although, a huge portion of the fandom is bipolar as fuck, stating one thing, only to claim the polar opposite some years later. I came in with Unleashed, and I remember all that. Unleashed was far from a perfect game, and I feel that some of its merits are overblown a bit (the story, while much better than anything post 2010, is still lacking and too goofy for its premise). That said, I firmly believe Unleashed is the best game of the series of the past 10 years.
RarefoilB; I'd go with inspiring, because watching it makes me feel better about Forces' failures. XDDD
You know, considering the idea of a resistance member count, they could've had at least 2 endings, with 1 being that you haven't gotten enough allies to fight in the last battle, and thus are overwhelmed by either the first set of illusions, or the 2nd set in which thousands of Infinite are everywhere, and your friends, while saved by you stopping the sun from falling down on their heads, are forced to retreat and either you (for stopping Eggman's doomsday plan) or Sonic (For obvious reasons) or even Knuckles (Cause he leads the Resistance) is taken prisoner while the others are forced to retreat, defeated.
And of course the other one being the good ending, destroying the Phantom Ruby and saving everyone, with a last camera angle showing your headquarters or something like that.
These ideas are so good, omg why didn't SEGA do all of this stuff for Forces?!
The only thing I would add on top of your ideas would be a DLC actually worth getting. The DLC I would have created would have taken place between the 6 months that the Resistance was born. I would have given all of the side characters an Episode similar to Episode Shadow. There could have been an Episode Knuckles, Episode Rouge, Episode Espio, you know. It would give them something to do in the game and it would provide new play styles and perhaps we could have excuses for new, but still short, levels.
This is where I think Sonic Forces really failed. In every other war game or resistance game, there is a greater sense of an army fighting together (Halo, Call of Duty, Star Wars Battlefront, etc). Forces only gave us three people in an army and two of them played almost exactly the same and the last one shouldn't have been there in the first place (Classic Sonic of course). Anyway, great video! I appreciate your constructive ideas! :D
It’s even worse when three people in said army aren’t really near any battles or anything that’s being told to us
All we get is a city being destructed and that’s how we should know there’s a war happening
While I don't think the fanbase entirely for Forces' mediocrity is entirely correct, there is some merrit to the argument.
Since the Adventure 2, every game was created with some measure of input from the fans. Heroes was a streamlined version of the Adventure games to limit the number of "playable characters", which was a major criticism of the titles both back then and now. Shadow was because fans wanted to give Sonic a gun, but SEGA realised the flaws in the concept and fixed the issue by giving guns to Shadow. 06 was, despite the fundamental flaws in its design, essentially an Adventure 3; having all the aspects that gave the Adventure titles their identity, but flawed nearly beyond repair. Unleashed was a 3D translation of the extremely popular Rush games on the DS lite, basically what the Adventure titles were to the original genesis games, but done arguably better in that respect. Colors was created as an Unleashed game without the Werehog, but I personally felt that it was actually very sloppily done. Generations was a response to the faliure of Dimps in Sonic 4, bringing Unleashed's gameplay back and incorporating functional and almost-accurate genesis-styled gameplay. Lost World was a response to the criticism that boost games have bad fundamental controls. Mania was the one time fans have truly given something wholly good tho the franchise, but was held back slightly by returning zones. And now Forces, which is a response to the criticism of the Lost World's gameplay style.
I personally think that if we leave SEGA the fuck alone and let them think for themself and reinvent themselves, we might get something good again.
0002niarDneK wow that last sentence XD
Pretty much this, it's been a whole cycle for years with the fans antagonizing sega/sonic team about these issues, that it screws up their creative minds/flow.
0002niarDneK I won't lie to you, I generally agree with this statement, especially the last part. Sonic's very inception was based on making an antithesis to Mario but despite that, they made it its own thing and something to be remembered, without any real outside help. When they started asking for suggestions, the games did become kind of take it or leave it in nature, with elements of those games still having a sense of heart/soul in there presentation but overall just trying to please a demographic.
I do generally prefer when any developer, not just Sonic Team and other Sega developers, just takes an idea and runs with it, something those so called dark age games did fairly well. I know that appealing to a predetermined audience is par the course these days but as far as I'm aware, legends like Mickey Mouse, Mario and Spiderman were born out of doing what the creators really wanted to do for the most part, each of those being oft failed as the pinnacles or saving grace of their medium.
I say about Forces what I say about 06 and even Rise of Lyric, plenty of potential, just poor execution, I just keep wondering why it comes to this point.
I don't hate Sonic Team in any capacity, there work was what inspired me to get into game development but it's hard to see them fall into similar traps all the time. I'm not into playing the blame game at all so I'll say that there are a multitude of circumstances, influences and decisions made that have put Sonic Team on this position but I'm confident that given the freedom, they would do something truly great with the franchise. Maybe it's like the video pointed out and they need to be backed into a corner to really pull out all the stops, as they did with Unleashed.
That said, it shouldn't really have to come to that point and after 27 years it's something they should know quite well I think.
I know from what I've seen in the last 18 years or so that they have the potential to relatively blow us away, so I'll hold out for that, but right now my expectations of the main development team are becoming increasingly mild.
I often wonder how different the series could have turned out if Sega had allowed Sonic Team to actually FINISH 06.
Tybis 06 had a lot of potential
15:06
I heard that this game went through a couple of pretty serious mis-translations in the game, where the Japanese version of Sonic Forces only says that "Tails' whereabouts are unknown, not that he has "Just lost it."
and that Sonic wasn't tortured but just deprived of food he actually liked.
Actually for this and Lost World, the English script came first. Japan just designed to make their own more subtle scripts. Sonic and Tails making a bunch of jokes in Lost World was changed more casual friendly banter.
the story and game is still bad even with the mistranslation
Zombie Clown
Oh, I am not defending Forces by any means in that sense. Its still awful. Its just so weird how much discourse there is in this game even between regional versions.
Jared Burk As someone has said, the English script came first.
welp.... that fixes Sonic
A lot of the stuff you talked about here. The idw comics used. It's amazing how IDW got the eh story of forces and turned it's plot holes into story lines.
they've never done it before in the 20-something years sonic has had official comics, so its horribly unlikely, but they should get those writers on board for future games
@@mvnkycheez And now we have Ian Flynn making Sonic Frontiers. I don't know if he'll actually pull it off.
Yes it's badly made. The physics and controls are screwed, especially classic Sonic. The level design is full of automation and this does not fall into mediocrity. This falls into shit because of its apparent problems spread throughout. The story is poorly written, the art direction is bland as hell except for one stage, some characters don't even have finished animations. Again classic Sonic has horrible physics and plays terribly but I guess that's what you could call mediocre. Everything else just culminates into a bad game.. Idk I just don't like being too kind to this game. It's bad. Just bad
I get the impression that Sonic Forces is being considered merely mediocre rather than bad here because the game functions without major glitches.
I guess that's where the bar is at after entries like Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric.
THANK YOUUUU. This is exactly my issue with forces. Hopefully this video goes 'viral' within the community and potentially reach sonic team. But let it happen naturally dont start spamming Aaron twitter guys.
Remember the new engine, “Hegdehog Engine 2”? That took up half to most of all development of this game on developing this engine.
Lost the coding, what?
I mean usually the engine is the hardest to do. And is basically half of the production nowadays. The HD FF series Era is an example.
Jason Nguyen It literally looked worse then unleashed
@@nitinanku I think it technically has more graphical prowess. The problem is the texturing and art design, both of which look flat.
When they say that Tails “lost it“ that was just a bad translation from Japanese
Just take a full trash can and sprinkle it with glitter, thats basically what sega did
All this creativity all these excellent ideas, it's such a shame that none of us are sonic team employees, if most of us were able to work as a team we could have been able to make sonic forces the game it should have been the game we have waited far too long for. I pray that Sega and sonic team figure this shit out, because at this point the future isn't looking so bright for them.
Guy McSir
Guy McSir; You're right, SEGA should just hire fans for 3D Sonic like they did for 2D Sonic!
Too bad there aren't many well known good 3D Sonic fangames or well known fangame makers of said games. Maybe the people of that Sonic World game could make something good. Nibroc-Rock being an official Sonic model maker would be pretty cool.
This is probably the most mediocre Sonic game I have ever played in my life.
I honestly feel like Sonic Team should really hire passionate fans to make the next 3D game.
Is it sad that Sonic 4 is the first game in the franchise that actually made me angry?
no
christian whitehead literally said he’d be down working on a 3d sonic game so shouldn’t SONIC TEAM TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS
GarlicWaffles Honestly Cristian Whitehead and Headcannon just need to take over the Sonic series at this point. He seems to have lots more inspiration than the likes of Sonic Team as of now.
Also, Forces spawned Bubsy memes.
The line that says "Tails has lost it" is a mistranslation. In the Japanese version, it states that Tails is lost, as in they don't know where he is.
"remarkable mediocrity"...beautifully said
Sonic Forces took 4 years to make, since the release of Lost World. It took three of those years to make the concept and story, and one year to actually begin making the game.
Sonic Team is so creatively dilapidated that it takes them three goddamn years to come up with such a mediocre concept as the one found in Sonic Forces.
... I have to confess that I had high hopes for this game before it came out, which actually contributes to the reason I despise this game so much now. I should have kept my expectations low.
Well, most of those 3 years were spent on deciding the species for the avatar.
I know one friend was a bit disappointed we didn't get echidnas or foxes for the avatar.
@Yung Sooty no, they snored crack
cbonde101 this is how the majority of games are made
@@medicfdumbo
Majority of games dont take 3 years to make a story. In fact, after the general premise and concept art is done other things are done concurrently with the writer to make the whole game.
This is why I just can't trust Sonic Team anymore unless there's a massive overhaul of staff
My biggest pet peeve was that Wispons often HALT YOUR MOMENTUM. That shows such a fundamental cluelessness, along with the absolutely bizarre acceleration and play control. I wouldn't even say it's mediocre; it fails all the fundamentals of its play without offering fresh new ideas (the resistance theme has been done before in Sonic). You can beat multiple levels without touching left or right on the control stick, just using the jump and boost button. It's ridiculous.
At least Shadow the Hedgehog is edgy enough to be funny, yk?
Grilac Games At least Shadow The Hedgehog lets you jump then move backwards. You seriously can't jump and move backwards in Forces. At least Secret Rings had motion controls for a excuse to not being able to move and jump backwards. Forces has no reason for being so unpolished.
Jpn Eshop It's frustrating that official 3D Sonic games cannot find a reasonable balance between tight controls and controls that consider your momentum/aren't too touchy... especially after MULTIPLE fan games have found satisfactory compromises.
Like, not hurtling at tops speeds to the left or right when jumping at high speed? Sure! Not being able to jump backward even at a full stop? Eww.
Grilac Games Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."
Turn to Christ for salvation, he is the only way to Heaven.
Charlie4Christ Thanks, Butch!
Exactly, any 3D platform game that relies on preventing me from going backward is almost always going to be a shit game.
I feel the Phantom Ruby serves as the driving factor in showing us how Eggman took over the world in the first place, as we've seen him try so many times in the past and fail due to Sonic intervening. The Phantom Ruby on its own is what gives Eggman the ability to so mass produce anything in the world he wants. Perhaps we could see in the opening cutscene a more fleshed out recreation of what went on in the short comic story posted on the Sonic social media pages where he discovers the Phantom Ruby, sees a grandiose vision of his wildest dreams come true, and in classic Eggman fashion, humorously throws a tantrum when it's all stripped away from him with Orbot and Cubot talking about how they hadn't seen anything and making quips about their boss's sanity.
Eggman then takes the jewel back to his base where we see him tirelessly trying to figure out a power source to unlock the true potential of the ruby, as we see him generating a small but more notable army than before, we find the stray team of jackals camped in the area try and put a stop to Eggman's plans when Infinite, having seen what the ruby can do, decides to betray his troop and join Eggman.
Infinite gets an overhaul by eggman (you don't really need to see this) perhaps accompanied by offscreen grunts from infinite, and we see (or maybe we don't see until later for dramatic effect) the finished result of what Infinite has become, as Eggman gains more and more power to fuel the ruby and thus his influence over the world.
I also think that Infinite could've been used to show off more trippy looking things with reality distortion similarly to what we see in the Metropolis level. Perhaps when you get closer to fighting Infinite in various areas you'd hear the Phantom Ruby's sound effects shortly before things start going haywire.
It doesn't have to be entirely tied to Classic Sonic nor does it have to be entirely tied to Sonic Mania, but I think what is shown off could've been expanded in more ways rather than just shoehorning in reused characters and ideas.
To me, I don't really know what to do about this franchise anymore... I personally believe there was absolutely no ambition in the making of Sonic Forces, the stages were literally boring as shit, Way too linear, they can also be completed in 1-2 mins with one hand..(You know what I mean Lol). The challenge in this game is a hilarious joke.. Every level you do automatically gives you an A or S rank, What freaking happened over the years? I remember back in Adventure and Heroes day you actually had to put SOMEEE effort into getting an A rank or above. Just Boost through all of the enemies and win! And I also want to say, that a lot(Not all) games pretty much babysit you today and Sonic has officially become one of those.
To this day, Sonic is one of those dead franchises that turn into mediocre, light-hearted kid friendly media with no creativity, that almost all of kids are going to be too blind to look back at the days when Sonic was actually great, Just look at the new Sonic racing game.... Sonic Team Racing? Are you kidding me Sega? Psh... probably just counter-productive work of Transformed. I'm not spending a single cent into another new 3D game until they hire actual passionate sonic fans like they did with Sonic mania.
"Oh remember the ole days" and that shit
You should read the IDW comics then, their actually made by people who care about the franshise
Thank god for mania
Hiring fans is not the solution to everything.
because sonic heroes was totally not a game meant for little babies lol
sonic was always meant for kids. the difference is that it doesnt try to pretend its not with guns and swearing anymore
Presentation, Ambition, Passion.
These core elements are disregarded and replaced by nostalgia pandering and being safe, both fans and critics have led sega to this decision I’m so glad you mentioned this cause a lot of the fanbase can be oblivious to how sega has taken on several fluctuating opinions and criticisms.
Sonic heroes: fans wanted more 2D incorporated in their gameplay
This demand was further ignited after shadow the hedgehog that used guns (and minor cursing),
Sonic 06: people said they didn’t want the adventure style gameplay and wanted sonic to return to the roots of 2D, they also didn’t want sonic’s friends as they were branded as useless or unnecessary.
Unleashed: Sega gives the fans 2D and people loved its incorporation with the 3D transitions but didn’t like the werehog and said to get rid of it
Colours: Sega gets rid of the werehog and the game receives a lot of praise but now it’s getting hate for having too much 2D and they want more 3D.
Generations: People love the game but don’t vibe with classic sonic as they just want 3D, they also got tired of the boost and said sonic doesn’t control well in the boost formula, no more boost.
Lost world: Sega provides a game to respond to the criticism of sonics lack of control by giving him more precise controls (even a run button was incorporated), the game that is a little more ambitious was hated on because it wasn’t as fast as the boost, they said they wanted the boost again
Forces: they give you the boost, the 2D, no unnecessary characters instead you have 3 variations of sonic, controls so precise that it becomes automated half the time. Now people are saying the want adventure 3.
Honestly every time Sega tries to do anything ambitious it gets hated upon because it’s not sonic and the fanbase and critics completely blow the hate out of proportion when those gimmicks were to expand and give the game more of an identity. But because of the backlash sega has been reduced to staying safe because that works but now they are getting criticised for not stepping outside of the box, no one liked the treasure hunting, the mech stages, the werehog, the extra playable characters, wisps. The sonic fanbase is really their own worst enemy.
Unleashed had so much passion, ambition and love poured into it but the hate of the werehog overshadowed all the other redeeming qualities just because people hated the concept itself.
Forces was bound to be mediocre due to Sega having limited options that have been eliminated by many of the fans with inconsistent opinions.
So true. It’s time for Sega to let loose. They won’t take another word from the fandom, and pretty soon, the fandom will have died because Sega will have made the right decision to make a Sonic game their way.
Their franchises will be reborn, and they’ll be as invincible as ever. They won’t need some garbage fan opinion! “OOOOH SANIK AVENTURE THREEEE PLEEEEEASE WAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!” If the fans keep screaming what they want, they’ll get it, but then they’ll think it’s wrong!
The Sonic fanbase is one of the worst fanbases of all time. Sega needs to stop listening to them and do things their way from now on.
BEC Enterprises true
You guys don't know anything, nobody complained about Sonic's friends except trolls sabotaging the series. The only complaint about them I can think of is how they get abandoned or in Tails case butchered for the LOLs in Pontac & Graff's insane minds. Sonic has been turned into a huge joke because of the 2 writers who never should have been hired to begin with as well as Roger Craig Smith's voiceacting.
Sonic Adventure 3 was something Dreamcastians wanted for well over a decade, it's not something new at all. The fanbase is massively split these days. I happen to like the Treasure Hunting & Shooting Stages in both Sonic Adventure games. I don't complain about the gimmicks, I complain about how bad the stories & characterization have been throughout the 2010s as well as the lack of playable characters. What I have wanted hasn't really changed, it's more that different fans say different things.
WaterKirby1994 interesting theory but you’re wrong,
There were infact a lot of people who did indeed want sonic friends gone whether they are trolls or not a good lot of people voiced their opinions on this, that doesn’t mean the entire fanbase agreed but people were fed up of the treasure hunting, the mech stages they didn’t like the team mechanic in heroes that much, and 06 was the the final straw as the Multiple playable characters were all a horrible mess that people just wanted sonics gameplay.
People are recently voicing their opinions on tails especially after his recent performance in forces. They are witnessing the character regression of tails who aimed for independence.
But I’m not talking about Just now I’m also referring to the past aswell.
My points may not be directly aimed at you since your views don’t fit the category of people who did infact complain about all these things, since you sound like you’re very knowledgeable to say someone else knows nothing surely you must have witnessed the inconsistencies of the fanbase constant change in opinion over the past decade or so.
Just because you didn’t complain about all these things doesn’t mean that other people haven’t complained either. You may like the treasure hunting but a good chunk of people hate it, some people like me love the werehog but a tonne of people hate it, some people may like the mech stages but people found them boring compared to the speed stages. Do you understand. If it doesn’t apply to you that’s cool but it has definitely applied to someone else and they aren’t alone about their feelings because the vocal majority shape the direction of the series along with the biased critics that aim to keep sonic as basic as possible.
Shooting & Treasure Hunting stages were great as well for the most part. The only real flaw of the latter were a couple of Rouge's stages. Sure the Big Fishing was a playstyle almost nobody wants to return in a future game, although Tails Racing stages are fun to play. Knuckles Treasure Hunting always felt good, Pumpkin Hill is loved by many. Gliding about in 3D & Climbing on 3D surfaces, just feels really good in both Sonic Adventure games. Some people happened to prefer Knuckles controls over Sonic's from the start in 3K. Sonic Adventure 2 had some great exploration in the Treasure Hunting stages. Also I agree people overreact to werehog, he was a fun change of pace.
As for the inconsistencies blame mindless sheep who listen to IGN, although there are plenty of fans who are consistent with what they want. Usually there are long time periods where certain groups remain quiet, although eventually they voice their opinions & keep in mind how divided the fanbase is these days. You satisfy 1 group, you make another group angry.
The problem is the sonic fandoms willingness for forgiveness. Stop giving SEGA more chances. Put your foot down and say no. And then they'll actually try to get it right. Come on guys you've been burned too many times. Prove to sega you aren't suckers and want quality games.
100 percent agree
London Jackson But it is part of the problem. Sonic fans are in this abusive relationship with sega and its time for them to break free.
London Jackson You should always expect the best from your favorite franchise.
Aaaaaaaaaaand, how would we do that? Not buying the games? That'll just give Sega the message "don't do Sonic at all." They're not exactly in a financial position to just say "oh this game flopped, let's do the next one."
RarefoilB If sonic dies then so be it better to let him die than his reputation be even more tarnished. Don't support a framchise if its not living up to your and its own standards.
Sega should hire this guy for making stories for sonic
His explanations actually work well 100%
I just thought it was insane that this game didn't have some kind of hub area given that you're in this like resistance army and, most importantly, you have a custom character. They give you hundreds of options to customize a character that you barely ever get to really see up close cause the only time you see them is in these levels where the camera is zoomed way out.
Man, it's been generations since I've seen you!
*insert laugh track*
I got frustrated while watching this video. Now, it wasn't because what was said in the video that made me feel that way, which as a matter of fact I found most of it agreeable. What actually got me frustrated was that it seemed that Sonic Team hadn't put as much thought into the development of ideas and design for the game as you did in this video. Of course your ideas could be expanded upon and more in depth, and I also don't want to act like Sonic Team didn't put hard work into this whatsoever, but this video says a lot.
Some really interesting ideas put forth here and why Sonic Team couldn't explore more of their own ideas is aggravating. Maybe part of the reason is indeed them trying to appease so much of what they get from feedback, however not doing so in a meaningful way. Very surface level solutions that only create new problems. I wonder if the current Sonic Team enjoy making Sonic games. As pointed out, a sense of passion and enthusiasm is seemingly missing from this game (though I admittedly have not played it and can only go off of hearsay), as unlike the case with Sonic Mania and Super Mario Odyssey (haven't played either of those games as well).
Super Mario Odyssey, while not reinventing the wheel that is Mario, managed to take on its ideas with a strong sense of what it wanted to accomplish. Sonic Forces, and Sonic Teams latest games (Unleashed, Colors and Generations I am a huge fan of) seem almost tepid in going full on what they try to establish. There isn't much pay off to what they attempt to build up, as if due to a lack of confidence in what they are going for.
This video does show that with the basic premise, Forces could have worked and does take some notes from earlier games. One of the things pointed out that I'm glad about is the level of action within cutsecenes. This, along with more dynamic camera work is great, but then is let down the notion that the cutscenes seemingly have little weight. The stakes seem to be without much gravitas and all because they can't "commit to the bit", so to speak.
I want Sonic to have consitently great games, and for Sonic Team to take pride in their work and have some fun. If that means setting aside specific fan expectations, and following their own creative vision in full, while also have the skill to then execute that vision, so be it. I am not one who wants the utter obliteration of Sonic Team and to simply hand off 3D development to fans, as I think that is an obnoxious notion. However, if Sega were to perhaps acquire a fan engine, which i'd personally like the Bumper Engine, and play around with what they can do and really work on a characters, narrative and flow that are engaging, then we could see some great stuff from this franchise. I don't know, but am still looking to see where the next 3D Sonic goes.
I think the game would have been better in the hands of anyone.... shit give me the money and I will use it to hire a competent indie studio to make it better than they did.
Part of the blame falls squarely on the SEGA higher-ups that organized the game's production. Practically none of the senior staff were involved with Sonic Forces, and it's likely that all the new people brought on to work on Forces were inexperienced with working on mainstream Sonic games. From what I remember, actual development of the game itself didn't begin into very close to the game's final release despite the time gap giving them ample opportunity to prepare. Also the credits revealed that only two people were involved with level designs, and said two people were once again not part of the senior staff. The whole game just reeks of mismanagement.
London Jackson
How do you lose codes?
It kinda baffles me how video game companies manage to "misplace" or "lose" codes to their own video games. 😧
My, someone has gone to college.
Well, there's a few issues with the hub world idea you presented I can think of right of the bat:
1. The game tries to make Tails appear as pathetic as possible, so they'd never give him such a valuable role/personality as you describe.
2. They'd have to introduce/refine how characters control at low speeds in a hub world, and I don't think they've done that since at least before the boost era.
In all seriousness, great video.
classic sonic was only used for marketing, lets be honest, his entire purpose was to just bring in that little bit more money
Classic Sonic after Forces: "I'm out of here!"
Emmett H
*Jumps off the screen and dies*
appears right in time for Sonic Mania Plus 5 episode animation
Marjan Ambroze *Insert creepy Sonic CD gameover theme*
90's Cartoon Sonic: Gotta Juice!
Emmett H; One can only hope he's out of Modern Sonic games for good. -__-
I agree with what you said about Classic Sonic in this game, especially when it came to the story. I hate the idea that Classic and Modern Sonic are now 2 separate characters instead of the same person, just from different times. Really shows just how little the writers care about the continuity of the series at this point. Generations was clearly about TIME travel, so how is Classic Sonic from another dimension now? Yes, I understand that Sonic Mania is a fantastic game and that Sega will want to make more 2D Classic Sonic games, but for continuity's sake they could've made the Sonic from Mania an entirely different Sonic to make this work in a timeline sense and be able to make more 2D Sonic games.
For example, when Tails meets Classic Sonic he could've said something like, "You're that younger version of Sonic from before.", and Classic's reaction to this would be confusion since this version of Sonic wouldn't have met Modern Tails before. We'd get a fade to black where Classic Sonic is giving Tails a brief summary of Sonic Mania and how he got here, with Tails paraphrasing to the audience since Classic Sonic doesn't speak in the 3D games. I'd imagine it'd go something like this:
Tails: Sonic? You...you're alive!! Wait, what? You're that younger version of Sonic from before.
Classic Sonic: ? *inspects this older looking Tails with confusion*
Tails: You...don't recognize me?
Classic Sonic: *shakes head* *looks like he's about to explain*
*Screen fades to black*
Tails: So... you're a different Sonic than the one I know...and after defeating your Dr. Eggman and this "Heavy-King" guy, this "Phantom Ruby" transported you here?
Classic Sonic: *nods*
Now this wouldn't really change Classic Sonic's overall role in the story. This is more of an explanation as to how this Sonic is now suddenly from a different dimension now, as well as give Sega an excuse to make more 2D Sonic games with the black-eyed, chubby, mute Classic Sonic (that everyone seems to love more than his older counterpart) without messing up the continuity of the series too much.
God, I love that idea of Tails bossing people around. The Adventure games set up the idea that Tails was growing apart from Sonic and becoming his own hero, only for every game since then to just dash that characterization and make him a coward. Give me a more authoritative, confident Tails!
And while you're at it, give me a Shadow that isn't just an edgy jackass and is instead a rude guy with a heart of gold please
Oh, and can Knuckles be less of a dumbass that would be awesome
Also, can we just fire every single writer at Sonic Team and hire someone more competent please thanks
15:23 I agree. Maybe even make game where tails is the MC and is alone with no help in some post-apocalypse wasteland and he's becoming more badass character - builds war planes, mechs, mad max-style cars and other mecha shit to fight and survive (and find Sonic). Open world to explore, collecting mechanical parts to build weapons / mechanisms, guns, basicly make survival-rpg post apocalypse game in sonic universe. (tails would look cool with goggles, slightly damaged light urban camo jacket and shoulder bag with wrenches and other mechanical stuff)
Also, the Forces memes spawned Bubsy back into the gaming business.
I liked how you went into how Forces is pretty much the result of Sonic Team trying to please everybody while at the same time falling short in doing so. Without the custom character, Forces is very much Generations 2 and I've seen a good amount of these people ask for something like Forces in the first place back when Lost World came out. They bitched about Sonic being "too slow" and didn't like Sonic Team being inventive with a gameplay mechanic like the parkour. In the end, I'm conflicted on if Sonic Team should ever listen to the fanbase since I hear the phrase from time to time "this doesn't belong in a Sonic game" in terms of narrative and gameplay and I believe that stifles Sonic Team's creativity altogether.
The expectations I have with a Sonic game is that the gameplay needs to compliment the level design. If the game's level design is going to be about platforming and exploration, the gameplay has to be entirely about platforming and exploration using a combination of the Adventure formula and parkour gameplay. Otherwise if the game's level design is going to be about speed-racing, the gameplay has to be entirely about speed-racing using the boost formula without any elements of platforming and exploration that end up ruining the flow and being counter-intuitive to the design philosophy of the boost formula. Everything else in terms of story, level themes, playable characters, etc...Sonic Team can have free rein on that. I just want to see some creativity and ambition from Sonic Team again.
Considering how disappointed I was with Gens, it could be described as Generations2. Still I like to think of Forces as the illegitimate child of Generations & Sonic Adventure 2.
So this came up in my recommendeds months ago and it has since been in my Watch Later playlist. I was gonna use x2 speed but 25.5 minutes felt _a little_ too long for my laziness. I'm watching this now, and I'm 3 minutes in and I am so happy we share the exact same thoughts so far. Here's to a great 25~ minutes.
My expectations are completely fulfilled.
I remember being so hyped for this game, I thought infinite had a really cool design and I enjoyed the "darker" tone even though I was always unsure of classic sonics inclusion even from the very beginning it didn't bother me. But after playing this game it felt so sad. Like it had so much potential and does have allot of good things going for it but it ultimately feels empty and like wasted opportunity
Unleashed is so underrated man. People keep putting the focus on the werehog, but don't pay attention to the music, the outstanding presentation, and level design. Fans are literally wanting Sonic to be a dating simulator at this point. If you just leave Sega to think maybe they'll deliver a great game.
I'm glad I wasn't the only person who noticed the connection to constructivism in the graphic design.
Amazing video. Interesting stuff.
The reason that Franchise Parasite is toted as “from another dimension” is because the timelines diverged as of the events of Generations, thus causing it to actually become an alternate dimension, for those still hung up about that.
Except that doesn't make sense sonic generations was canonically before Advance and adventure
Thus the history isn't changed, because sonic has a few years of games, as for sonic mania it takes place after generations thus a time loop but alt dimensions can be seen as time travel
23:12 Blaze would’ve been a perfect side effect of the phantom ruby
I figured Silver was a side effect, he is still from 200 YEARS IN THE FUTURE right Sonic Team!?
But you see, the problem with this video is that Sega doesn’t care. Sega just wants to make a quick buck. We also need someone who knows what their doing for design of 3d sonic games
as a bitch ass fox said in this game true dat
*the problem with this video is sega doesn't care*
how does that in anyway make this invalid??
Classic revival went great. Now give us the Adventure revival. Long as its outsourced to passionate fans. Like the sonic world team
I agree that one of the main issues is that Sega has no vision of its own for Sonic and are instead trying to latch onto the vision of the series' fans without understanding that vision, all the while trying to tiptoe around all the exaggerated criticisms of the jaded gaming critic community, which neither loves the property nor knows what's best for it.
That being said, just having a vision isn't enough either, as it's very possible to have a bad vision. You still have to be true to the series and its characters, and I think that looks a certain way. There's a lot of freedom you can have while still staying true to it, but not just any vision or concept is going to fit.
One thing I think they absolutely need to do are to go back and tell the same type of earnest action/adventure stories that the Genesis and Adventure games had (they really weren't so different from each other if you pay attention). '06 also tried but seemed to need a few more revisions before being implemented. I'd give Unleashed some credit too, especially its opening scene, but the rest of the story really dulls out with its focus on one very specific story element with little character interaction.
Speaking of which, they also need to take their characterization back to that same era, writing Sonic and co. a un-self-aware and affected by their circumstances instead of 2D flat cut-outs who know they're in a story. Sonic is witty, but he's not a comedian. Tails is smart, but he can't make an airplane with nothing but a screwdriver, and I need to believe he's building what he builds. Knuckles is tough and a guardian; he's goofy in his naivete which comes from his seclusion, but he's neither an idiot nor a genius. I could go on an on. These are the correct ways to portray these characters.
Another thing they need to do is open things up and get rid of those silly 2D sections. Get away from the on-rails speed element and go back to a more Adventure style of open platforming that also makes use of speed. Maybe keep the boost and let the player use it at any time but encourage its use more in wide-open areas in levels that you put in to break up the more Adventure-style platforming areas, similar but maybe not exactly like how '06 had level designs that catered more toward platforming and areas that catered more toward speed.
Lastly, for now, bring back Sonic's friends as playable characters again. Their control styles have already been perfected, so see what you can do with them. Fix Knuckles emerald radar so it can detect more than one thing at a time, or maybe just give him action stages instead. That'd be interesting. Put Tails' flying ability to use again and find a way to work in his inventing skills. Anything else you'd want to do with the characters would have to depend on the story you're trying to tell.
Okay, I got a little carried away there. Obviously, not everything I said is a must, but I think the storytelling, characterization, and open Adventure-esque gameplay all are.
I can tell you really want Adventure gameplay back. So do I, but aside from maybe a remaster, it will never happen.
Isn't this just basically Sonic: Endgame?
The comic?
No. Because Endgame actually gave a shit
Sonic Team
Letting Tails develop as a character.
Yeah right. Who would they make fun of if they let Tails develop?
According to their Twitter. Everyone.
@@zigzoinks5493 I'm so glad Sonic has become a self-aware self parody, it's not like any of us really cared or liked the genuine attempts of making an interesting story.
the main thing for me that would make the game alot better is making the levels longer (but keep them mostly 3d, nobody wants generation's modern planet wisp again, urgh)
that is what i liked about sonic unleashed day stages, cuz they were mostly 4 minutes long while boosting, they felt like an adventure and a wild ride,
meanwhile the forces stages never go above 2 minutes, and they end just when you finally start enjoying yourself, and end up getting a very bad case of blue balling
bocodamondo Forces' idea of 2D is worse than 2D
bocodamondo The plot should have been more elaborate as well. Didn't feel developed enough.
Exactly 😂
Completely agreed, plot aside gameplay should have been like city escape to rooftop run part of sonic mania, a wel balanced boost formula, with a couple of wide 3d spaces in between, and different 2-3 paths worth exploring
Modern planet wisp was a nightmare.
For your point on the Sonic side characters getting some shine, I would actually point to Shadow the Hedgehog. As flawed as that game was, this game could've used its mechanic of introducing different characters to come with you temporarily to fight alongside you.
"Sonic Forces is one of the worst 3D Sonic games to be released so far."
*likes video*
Vitoamiibo Dang Son-ic.
My thoughts exactly.
Vitoamiibo; Honestly same XDDD
Same
It is not bad at all. It does not suck. It was really good but don't reply to me well It is my opinion and Ik some moves when sonic escapes prison and when the chasers chase you jump and boost and don't let go and then do stomp the chasers are gone so you don't have to worry
Compared to other reviews focused on sonic forces, i found this more insightful than the rest. It's rare to see someone give a sophisticated analytical look at forces and ways to improve it rather than immediately going into desecrating everything wrong with the game while making redundant jokes about the game and series in question. Initially, i was one of the very few people to still find forces enjoyable until subsequent playthroughs made me realize the multiple glaring problems that ultimately made me stop playing it altogether.
I remembered how the horrible community was during the games developmental period, it was an us against them mentality which is still (even though not prominent in this time) one of the driving factors that making a simple opinion on the game would only spark ridicule and disgust among fans if you had any positive or negative look towards the game in question. I might be over exaggerating the situation, but it still can't be denied how disastrous the community became until the inevitable release.
With that all being said, what kind of ideas do you have in store for your next video? and any thoughts on Team Sonic Racing?
Tch356 Yeah the community was even more hyperbolic than usual leading up to the release of Forces.
This all sounds good except for the fact that writers for the current games aren't as good.
Seriously, what's going on over there at Sonic Team?
Iizuka is mentally ill these days & doesn't even really realize how badly Pontac & Graff have hurt Sonic's reputation by writing for the series as they know absolutely nothing about it. Because he doesn't speak English he doesn't know how unfitting Roger Craig Smith is for Sonic's voice.
@@patrickhughes288 hire Ben Schwartz
Don't know what input the voice actors have in the writing, but I doubt they have a say in what they're being paid to say. Lol
WaterKirby1994 He’s actually great in Sonic Boom, and I thought he was fine in Forces
@@WaterKirby1994 debatable
already, im thinking about how many great ideas you’ve made to sell the main storyline of Sonic Forces.
and im not even halfway through the video! incredible stuff, my guy.
I don't have much to add to any discussion here except that I loved the repetition of "And if that sounds familiar, IT SHOULD." It was a very effective method of driving a variety of points home.
I don't think the Phantom Ruby is inherently unworkable in this game, but I do agree that its current usage is as superfluous as what goes around it.
Also, it's such a shame what Infinite ended up being, but even after all of it, I'd still say I'm a fan of that crazy lunatic. Here's hoping Infinite's future is improvement and not the trash can.
i always find wierd how people are fans of what characters could be a not of what the character is, people love silver for what he could be not for what he is, and now same with infinite.
bothe characters are worthless but people like the idea of what theu could be
but thats a possibility of what the character could be not what it actually is.
that what you described is basically a different character.
this is why i hate silver and why i believe he should be retconned already, 06 is the only game where he actually had relevance and 06 is something we all want to forget, and canonically 06 didn't even happen given how the game retconned its own story, and every other time he appeared on other games, his inclusion is useless, random, and pointless. having him appear in new games is just a reminder that 06 is still a thing. and that is just toxic for the franchise.
infinite just falls in the same category, what you want is a better idea, but that better idea is a new character, not infinite
Rex67Diego9 fandub I find it strange that you criticize people who like characters for their potential instead of their execution when the reason you don’t like Silver doesn’t even have to do with his character’s defined abilities or personality. It seems hypocritical to backpedal and use bias for his introduction game to fuel your distaste rather than actually analyze Silver himself.
LukerGamerz first of, i didnt critisized anyone, i just said that i find it wierd
i probably frased that wrong, silver is awfull in 06, and thats the only game where he has relevance, its a game that retconns itself within its own story, and any other time sonic team tried to shove him down our throats its just a useless, random and pointless cameo.
now as to why silver is awfull, he is super dumb, he switch his motives randomely to follow the broken plot, he asked mephiles for explanation and mephiles wouldn't give an answer, yet he still works with him. that didn't rised red flags at all? then the time travel thing. etc. his is utterly slow, and the way they use time travel is just so goddamn idiotic, i'm pretty sure i'm missing more stuff, but i really don't want to go through 06s plot to find out
thats why silver sucks, now before you bring up the fact that every character has similar problems in this game, well thats the point, even if sonic, amy, blaze, shadow, suffer from this problems, this characters have their staple games, to remind us that they are not bad characters, Shadow have SA2, Amy has SA1 and Sonic CD, tails and knuckles have heroes, SA1, and the classics, and Blaze has the Rush series.
Silver? 06 is his flag ship game, you hear silver and you relate to 06, yeah i hate him for being an awfull character but i also hate him for what he represents, Sonic team keeps forcing him in games almost as if they were proud that they did 06 or to troll us reminding us that game is still a thing, why? the game retcons itself and the game is awfull with horrible representations of characters, you have a perfect set up to just move on, yet they still shove Silver down our throats when he has no place, the context of his existance, is literally something that never happen in the canon, and something that we wish never happened in real life.
The Rings are useless in Forces. Once you collect 100, you cant go over. I wouldnt mind Tails having a workshop and selling wisp weapons for Rings.
Or the clothes could have been bought with rings rather than a reward for clearing missions
WaterKirby1994 Yeah. Clothes too.
Vantel Williams If you played in hard mode the ring cap is 999 not 100.
Mikenelas777 I know. I didnt play Hard mode though. Never will lol.
@@SuperVada why not it's not any harder.
dude your videos are like a DREAM in literally every sense of the word
I love this. the filters, the ideas, the hope, the criticism, the art...! It's so amazing!
I like your point about making Green Hill's destruction more powerful to the audience. As you were describing it, it almost mirrored a part from another game that did it flawlessly: Super Paper Mario.
The moment comes far into the game. You've been trying to collect the Pure Hearts to try and stop the Void the baddie created from sucking away all the worlds. You've collected several Hearts so far, and it seems like you might actually have a chance. But then the unthinkable happens...you fail. An entire world is sucked away.
The game doesn't skate over this or never go back to it. You get to wander through the empty, grayscale world. A forlorn track is playing in the background as you run across endless white lines. It actually takes over a minute to find anything interesting to interact with.
The reason this was done so well, in my opinion, was that you played through a level in that world before it was sucked away. You talked to the people living there, and got to see what a lively place it was. Seeing it reduced to a single line in a void of white hits like a freight train. If Sonic Team had done something, ANYTHING with Green Hill like this, it would've done the exact same thing. We all know and love/hate it for the lively place it is. What would it feel like to see it reduced to sandy nothingness?
Thank you for coming to my TED talk. XD
Man I love your essays. They’re so detailed and interesting! I love how you really understand what fans want and you’re able to criticize and improve the game based on the general consensus of what they want.
Dark times. Sonic, my friend.
Literally every single idea you came up with for Forces sounded stellar. Fantastic video!
Make Sonic PG-13 and add more Sinister Bosses and a decent and darker plot
Do shounen?
SEGA: No
Oh boyo. Lol.
I'm glad this channel is back.
Going into the story and gameplay aspects of this video, I couldn't help but notice that Sonic himself kinda takes the backseat here. I mean, it's understandable given Sonic himself kinda does in the regular game itself. But I believe with him being seperate from the main cast throughout most of the game, his playability not having much depth or other features like you suggested for the Avatar and his gameplay not really evolving past what Generations had to offer, it kinda feels more like this is the Avatar's game and not Sonic's. It makes sense given how you didn't want to deviate too much from the way the regular game's already set up. But I think both Sonic and the Avatar should have a more equal impact on the game in it's aspects.
EDIT: Oh snap, I made a cameo. Nice.
@@londonjackson8986
I would have rather Classic just not been in the game at all. Same with the Avatar. In fact, if it was up to me, this game would be like a second Sonic Heroes. That would have made much better use of the other characters.
sega needs to hire you
jojo's big ass Nah, Sega needs to hire ALL the fans with good ideas and the fans that make good games
nah. Sega needs to hire the fans that made Sonic Suggests.
Lol
NUKELEDGE Yeah, that's true
Sonic Team just needs to keep a specialized development team instead of laying everyone off after the game is done.
I’ve only watched 13 minutes of this video so far and I already love it. These ideas and concepts just sound so much more amazing than what was given in the actual game.
I don’t know why but that part where you described the ‘Tails fixes Omega’ scene by saying “Ugh, crumbs. I couldn’t fix my toy” made me laugh for some reason.
Eyyy. Thanks for the shoutout at the end there, pal.
As you said, what Sonic needs right now is passion and life. We fans have got that in spades.
I think we need a game not focusing on Sonic. A Tails game. Knuckles. One of the main characters for christ sake,
I don't sonic team will just end up fucking them over like they did in forces
Sam Fisher tru
I’m guessing you have not heard of Shadow the Hedgehog
Sonic Team thinks that doing that doesn’t work, given that the one time they tried to give Tails, or Knuckles, or Shadow, a spinoff game, it was bad.
naaaah
This game was legit the biggest let down of the entire franchise, and is in my opinion, one of the worst Sonic games of all time having sit in the back with Boom. This game literally had no drive or motivation. It was bland unenthusiastic garbage thrown in our face and lied about to the fans. Sega let the fans down, and to think that I was so hyped for this game but so disappointed was unbelievable..
Also, great video man. You knocked it out of the park with this and opened up my mind to so many ideas that could have been but weren't. Hope the next game uses styles such as this
I agree but you really think sonic team the way they are now, can they really make a good sonic game I dunno man I seriously doubt it
Baldy McNosehair I don't, but when they lied about "from the team that brought you Generations and Colors" everyone was hyped but let down so hard. I don't think we will ever get another good boost game if the dev team continue to produce this kind of trash
I don't think it's that bad. We only think that because it let us down so much more than any Sonic game before. This game is literally the representation of coming so close and then fucking everything up, and coming that close makes the loss even feel even worse.
"The Team that brought you Generations & Colors", kind of tells you not to expect a masterpiece. Both of those games were lackluster. 2010 started the worst era of Sonic's history & it just kept getting worse & worse. Generations was a huge letdown after the innovation that came with Colors, Lost Worlds was worse than Generations, & Boom's 1st pair of games were worse than Lost Worlds.
Now I admit Infinite & Custom Hero seemed so promising before the game was released, although of course because Pontac & Graff were writers for it everything fell apart. Still I want both Infinite & Custom Hero 2nd chances to shine after their introductory story was butchered. Also Roger Craig Smith needs to go, his voice just doesn't fit Sonic at all & makes him sound like a joke along with all the crappy writing from the 2 writers who never should have been hired to begin with.
I'm tired of 3D Boost games, I want the characters I enjoyed from back in the Dreamcast & 4kids eras back in Adventure styled games! Although I guess Sonic, Shadow, & Blaze can keep the boost if we get characters like Knuckles, Rouge, & Tails how they played in the Adventure games. For having Shadow & the Custom Hero playable & Not "Just Sonic" Forces was definitely a step in the right direction after Lost Worlds.
I was thrilled about the premise and a darker tone at first but now i realize that that was pretty pointless from the start.
I love your ideas for how to make this game so much more interesting. If I worked with Sonic Team, I would definitely consider remaking the game under your ideas and calling it "Sonic Forces Again".
This hits everything I think of this game dead-on. Thank you for well-made content
Ah Forces, one of the most disappointing Sonic games, an slap in the face to the people who believed in it.
This is an absolutely incredible interpretation, head and shoulders above anything Sonic Team did for Forces. And frankly, once you hit the Nier: Automata comparisons, it really hit home how so devoid of creativity and scale SEGA's attempt was this time around. It could have been so much more, and I am pretty worried about the series' future at this point.
But gawd, I wish your game was real. Sonic would have been at his biggest peak since Unleashed in terms of story, especially for a Craig Smith-era game.
I thought I was only going to watch the first 10 or so minutes of this just to hear someone's take on this game, but I ended up staying the whole way through because it was honestly super refreshing and informing.
The best way I can describe Sonic Forces is that it's pretty much an overglorified self-insert fan-fiction (the Avatar character being said self-insert), because the game has all the hallmarks of a bad fan-fiction:
- A self-insert character with no personality so the player can insert themselves into
- A lackluster story that makes no sense and is littered with plotholes,
- Characters being written out-of-character from how they're normally characterized, (Tails and most of the Resistance, which is basically a bootleg version of the Freedom Fighters from the Archie comics and SatAM cartoon),
- An "edgy" OC character to serve as the "villain" when he is written just as awfully as every other "edgy" OC character (Infinite),
- Plot devices that serve no point other than to forcefully move the plot (The Phantom Ruby)
- Unnecessary fan service (Classic Sonic, old villains "returning", etc.)
If anything, Sonic Forces is basically the SatAM Sonic cartoon but without any of the charm or appeal the cartoon had, and turned into a soulless mockery of the franchise that tries too hard to be darker and more serious when coming off as clumsy and halfhearted in the end. I'd say Forces is the worst Sonic game ever made, and while people would say Sonic '06 is the worst, it's the worst on the opposite end of the spectrum: Sonic '06 had a lot of overly ambitious ideas that were poorly executed due to the production being rushed for a holiday release, while Forces plays things so safe that it didn't even TRY to set itself apart from what came before.
All it's missing is the _other_ kind of fanservice