A few degrees lean angle is quite significant in racing. Would be more interesting to calculate the difference in cornering speed for the given maximum lean angle of a motogp bike.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking. 4 degrees less of lean angle means you have four more degrees of lean that you can get, meaning you can go some amount faster and still lean as much. His tests largely held speed constant to judge the lean angle differential, which is why his lap times weren't affected. Lean angle has no impact on speed, but it does have impact on how much speed you choose to use.
Maxwell Schmidt exactly! With less lean angle, he could’ve taken that corner that much faster, improving his time. He’s just too scared to take that corner faster.
Yup, whenever i take corners not using lean out techniques, my bike feels like shooting outside the corner. But whenever lean out is applied i take the same corner with faster approach without any doubts. And that 4degree means world of difference in a GP bike shooting out 250HP.
@@maxwellschmidt235 A professional rider on a moto Gp bike can use that 4 degrees , or even 1 degree to go faster , those guys are always at full lean , and that's the difference between pro and amateur , and I agree with you totally
4 degrees is a very significant difference... the fact that one is more or less capable to benefit from those degrees in terms of lap time is a completely different story...
Most of us will never reach the maximum lean angle of a bike, and so I'd argue that not wasting energy moving your body is more useful than keep your bike more upright. But, if you learned to ride by hanging off, or if pretending you're in motogp makes you feel great, there's no escaping the mental side.
@@jasonjayalap I would say if it is for a track day, the hand out do make u feel more comfortable and the bike would more stable for sure. But if its for riding in mountains maybe its pretty same since most of us will not lean too much there
did he factor in this also helps in managing tyres throughout race and also the riders height at world class matters alot. if you're small, you really have to hang off the bike to get the bike to turn. look at toprak vs bautista. aside toprak insane breaking skills, toprak barely has to hang off the bike to take a corner and compared to bautista is fighting demons trying to hang his body so far off the bike just to turn it.
@@flippyfiller Yup, the lateral acceleration for a motorcycle. kineticorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2015-01-1422-validation-of-equations-for-motorcycle-and-rider-lean-on-a-curve.pdf
@@flippyfiller Well,... strictly speaking, centripetal acceleration is the lateral acceleration in a circular motion. Since in a track you rarely follow a strictly circlular motion, but rather a combination of straight, elyptical, hyperbolic, also circular...etc, it makes more sense to refer to lateral and longitudinal acceleration! So, Mike used the correct term! Richard Feynman said at some point in an interview, that he doesn't understand why people are so obsessed with knowing the names of things, when they should be focusing on understanding their nature. The way I see it, things don't inherently have names, but they always have the physical properties, that they are supposed to have, irrespectively of the name we decide to give them.
What about the "sail effect" of hanging off which increases wind resistance on the inside of the turn and facilitates the turn? I think that alone explains why you were faster on long sweepers hanging off. Long sweepers are high-speed turns and increasing wind resistance on the inside of the the bike by itself will turn the bike and allow less lean angle and more confidence to go faster.
sail effect works really well on braking too, popping up and opening your knees drops a whole lot of speed before you even touch the brakes, there's no way hanging off doesn't apply some force to help in the turn.
I agree, Mike is great! Buuuuut, you can't just discount channels like motojitsu. So when you say by far, i have to disagree 🤘 what a great time we live in to be able to get information like this. I'm a little older so i was riding when there was no TH-cam, no rider aids... Just you and the bike and you have to figure it out
Well as an 32 years old and a 2003 R6 rider for 7 years now, i got to say that your body going out of the bike is really important, I'm almost always using batlax tires and they wore off very quickly but the grip is awesome, the thing is when your tires are wearing off you feel the rear dancing and the more you lean the motorcycle, more dangerous it is and I try to lean my body more and the bike less so that i won't go to the ground and up until today, i never went, i got some close calls and learn to lean my body more without the bike and it works wonders... All this in the city were the roads are bad and you have traffic and lights, not on track were you go full speed without worrying with other vehicles, and I'm not a reckless driver, sure i did over speed limits sometimes but when there's no traffic and plenty of space to do it. Anyway, if you're talking about safety and not speed, yeah leaning is very important to me, i feel more safe to maneuver my bike and faster if something happens in the city by adjusting my body more and less the bike just because my body would interfere less and toke more time in some situations than the bike and i can alter the direction with the bike smoother while my body is still changing positions. In my honest opinion, just drive the way you feel more comfort because it's not only the race or speed, the feeling of riding a bike is something i can't feel on anything else and that's the most important thing to me. Please be safe and enjoy your corners fellow riders. Sorry for bad inglish, love from Portugal 👊😎
Hanging off and keeping that few degrees margin allows faster correction in an unexpected situation. Being able to tighten the curve might be very helpful on road conditions. Thanks for the movie!👍🏼
Yes, this is why it's super important. Yamaha champions really puts this into perspective. As they say, "load the bike before you work the bike." Every movement takes time and adds stress to the physics. Both things you don't have much of when going fast on a bike.
Awesome analysis Mike. I haven’t seen anyone else in video land take such a comprehensive approach. There’s usually so much opinion and bragging involved in others viewpoints
Something to think about is the stability a bike gets when hanging of (half butt) and still maintain most of the pressure through the outside leg and footpeg. Cornering always creates movement in a bike, but when stable you can let the bike do its thing and concentrate on the lines. Compare it with a trailer with the COG before or after the axle.
Wow... Thank you. (I am an engineer with Ph.D.)..You just explained something I have been feeling, but just could not explain while I am riding for some times. ... Yes, body position (or hanging off) is important, but 'slow in' and 'fast out' with as good of line selection as possible at my level is the key !!! THANK YOU.. 🥰
"Slow in, Fast out" has much more to do with the traction circle and carrying more speed down the following straight. Explaining things one at a time makes sense. This video was about lean angle and hanging off.
Thanks for an excellent video. There is another thing to consider in street riding: staying in line with the bike gives far better vision, and this increases safety.
I've found at the moderate lean angles I manage on the street, that when leaning off I have a lot more control over adjusting the lean angle mid corner. If the front or rear starts to slip, I've found that I can drop my weight down and lift the bike up to grip back up. I've also noticed at the same speed I tend to have far less lean angle than some people I ride with by not sitting straight up and down on the bike. This video makes me want to try and get some data and see how much the feeling of reduced lean angle is in my head 😅. Its amazing how much reality and perception can differ with things like riding! Great video!
When you have not that great tyres (or below optimal temperature) or the pavement is not that grippy those few less degrees of bike angle really make a difference tho
KIND OF, i was wondering an i can safely say: Watch the difference between ISLE OF MAN TT AND MOTOGP. In motogp, guys go fast and can use A LOT their body because the TRACK IS VIRTUALY PERFECT. BUT in a road racing, you just CANT DO IT, you need to keep a classical riding style cause a normal road has a lot of bumps and different grip levels along its way, sometimes along one corner path. SO with your body BEING LESS OUTSIDE THE BIKE, its is FASTER and SAFER to recover from any abnormality. IF you do the motogp body positioning style in road race, you will NOT HAVE TIME TO RESET your body position and SAVE the failure. So, its safer to ride in a less extreme positioning when youre in a road.
@@evilzinabyssranger5695 I think it’s more dangerous to lean the bike on shit roads than it is to hang off. Tar snakes, debris, water, oil, potholes, all cause loss of traction. The more your bike is leaning during the slip, the better chance you have of crashing
Hej Mike! I did the same thing to counteract the argument against chicken strips. Bike: Tracer 900 / Fj09 With a new tire, I took a fast route while hanging off measuring the chicken strips left behind. Then I took the same route without hanging off. Times pretty much the same. Indeed the 2nd time, there were no chicken strips and even though the difference was less than 1cm, I felt a lot more confident hanging off without having to worry about scraping pegs, etc. At the same time, in short low-speed mountainish corners I saw that I was faster while not hanging off thus, I try not to. Bra jobbat, love the videos since the first upload ❤️
You say that leaning off only helps a small amount of degrees. But every degree matters because every degree matters for the amount of tyre on the tarmac. You see it with beginning track riders. Often very slow not using their body and have having high lean with really slow laptimes. Also entering corners to slow because the brake to hard. Release the brake to early and unload the front suspension and front tyre and ruin the corner speed. I really liked the comparison with supermoto between legg out and body out. Very interesting.
Amount of tyre on the tarmac? I'd actually contend there is no difference once off-vertical. The shape of the tyre means it hardly changes until you reach the absolute extreme.
@@DiscoFang It depends on the shape and wear of the tyre. The tyre is not perfectly round and tapers off to the side. And yes indeed when comparing lean angles one can argue that at some lean angles the difference is almost zero. One could even say that a very worn tyre on the track that as gotten a more triangle like shape has better grip on a very specific lean angle. In general you can say that more lean on the bike means less tarmac on the road, even tho under some angles the difference is pretty much zero.
That's me all over! Just done my second track day, made a vlog of both my first and second days if your interested, anyways I find exactly what you say, I'm not properly using my body to lean off and not carrying speed through the corners, I have been riding on the road for about 12 years though and think that has made it harder for me to change my riding style to lean off. Either way very interesting topic.
Lean angle is interesting and great work Mike. However, lean angle is only relevant for cornering speed if the ultimate tyre grip is affected, so what is the relationship between wheel angle and tyre grip (cornering force)? Perhaps the cornering force is more for +4 degrees from around 40 degrees (larger contact patch)? Perhaps race tyres are designed to give bigger contact patch at high lean angles compared to say a touring tyre where a larger patch is desirable with bike upright, for load capacity and good tyre life? So many questions!!!
Even if race tyres have an increased contact patch at high lean angles, it just minimizes the fact that you can't open the throuttle too much at maximum lean angle. When racing superbikes you want to accelerate as soon as possible exiting the corners, and it happens at the moment when you leave the maximum lean angle. Ultimately, and racing is all about extract any little bit of performance from wherever you can, hanging off will help you to get this moment a little bit sooner.
So many variables but one worth mentioning is that it may be easier to find our reference points both visually and anatomically with the position we adopt in any given turn.
Love this TH-cam channel. Great videos, well presented, easy to understand information, a pleasure to watch all these vids. Thankyou Mike for all youve uploaded. 😎👍🏍️💨🇬🇧
Great series on motorcycle riding dynamics. I believe racing would provide the clearest canvas for bike dynamics, and I don't race. Riding on the street, I've found that remaining neutral increases my safety factor, I'm able to course correct or slow rapidly in a more controlled (comfortable as you mentioned) manner. Where I ride, I'm always going around blind turns, so I utilize the neutral position most of the time. Now and then, an open curve at speed presents itself and I'm more than happy to lean to the inside and forward. Thank you for your insights.
The quality of the surface and the Power of the bike are also factors. If you have to correct the lean angle due to loss of Grip and/or loss of traction a more upright seating Position helps you to respond to that(offroad). The onroad explanation seems to be more hanging off.
If Mike was my science teacher in school we wouldn't have got any work done. We'd be talking bikes all the time. Great video and really useful. Thanks Mike
THANK YOU. Your videos are truly interesting and informative. And THANK YOU for not starting all of your youtube videos with "hey guys WHATS UP? Like virtually EVERY OTHER wannabe motorcycle and automotive video channel.
ALSO you lean give a bit of an angle and puts the suspension under pressure, allowing you to get out of the corner faster, since the probability of a wheelie gets lower due to the compression of the suspension
You know something that would make a really interesting video: what is the ideal body size and weight for a rider in terms of performance. With modern bikes having almost unlimited power, I feel like weight is less of a detriment than it once was. On the contrary, a taller, heavier person (not fat, but just larger build) could potentially require less lean to maximize grip in a complex series of corners, possibly allowing them to maximize them better. It would probably vary on a track by track basis, but it's something interesting to think about compared to cars or karts where almost universally lighter and smaller=faster.
SURE. Thats what happen to Pedrosa in his latest years (apart from the bike which was developed for marc, they have very different riding styles so its enough to fuck Pedrosa life) BUT Pedrosa was ALWAYS the guy who reach the highest lean angle in the paddock. GUESS WHY? ALSO, heavier guys could put more temperature in the tires while Pedrosa couldnt (again, development issues help this phenomenon) and because of it, they had less wheelspin outside the corners. I bet that Pedrosa would be unbeatable in 600 or 300 cc.
The other thing it does is place your entire body weight at the centre of the bike because of how you hang off using your leg. I think this improves the weight distribution between the front and back & therefore increases net grip & the suspension response to road imperfections.
the amount of effort you put into making your videos is amazing man! i dont think i cant understand the formulae, but i get the jist of it primarily because of the visual demonstrations on a bike!
I really enjoyed the video. The one take way that I wanted you to note in your next ponderings is that while the number of degrees stays fairly small most tires contact patches aren't spherical they tend to be ovular. This means even a slight decrease in lean angle can net a large increase in contact patch meaning that depending on the tire setup and bike geom it could have a vastly different level of effect. I think for the SuperMoto you did great but I feel like it's the bike that would have the absolute least amount of change in performance when compared to moto gp. I was always taught that basically the moment you are both on a bike and a road that requires hanging off to take corners effectively is the moment you need to slow down and hit the track. So I would love to see more information and research into how various tire setups can effect this equation as well.
I think a helpful thing to know would be the surface area of the contact patch at a given lean angle and speed, and the amount of force on said contact patch at a given lean angle and speed. I think this might be able to remove subjectivity altogether.
I remember back in the 80's, when I began riding, there wasn't much hanging off, but more knee out, as it was used as an air brake to rotate one around the corner better and slow down, with the inferior brakes and tires back then. Actually at the police mc courses today here in Denmark, the instructors don't recommend hanging off as there's to little to gain with modern tires, it's only advised to lean head in to corner and look out of the curve, but than again it's for fast driving on public roads and not extreme racing, where split second counts, where there are no obstructions to crash into.
9:24 --> this is the whole point: "fast out". - Wide turns: Lower leaning angle means you can slightly anticipate the burst of power when exiting the curve because the bike is already more vertical. Then, getting the pilot back to the neutral position on the saddle does not constitute a delay factor because as speed increases, so does the angular momentum of the wheels, which is what sustains the [now vertical] angle. - Tight turns: Conversely, when the turn is tight, accuracy in drawing the right curve is more important, and that can be achieved more easily by using the arms and the steering. Also, when the turn is over, pulling back the bike is a blink, so the delay in full throttle is negligible. If however the pilot was knee out, pulling up the body to the neutral stance on the saddle would be a delay factor, because the angular momentum is lower, and hence the pilot has to exert momentum on the handlebar, delaying the acceleration. The ideal next study would be to find the soft spot (dependent on speed, curve, and bike+pilot weight, and height) at which one should pick one or the other stance. I would be impressed if that hadn't been already addressed by MotoGP teams, but I think for their range of applications, speed are always so high to never get to need the neutral stance.
Liked and Subscribed! I think this was the third video that I watched from you. You have a different approach to motorcycling. It is scientific and your videos are very informative. You are doing a great job! Thank you and keep it up Sir!
Tie a small plumb bob (fishing line) to something on the higher part of your fairing, then you’ll be able to calculate the angle to a more accurate level because you’ll have a plumb line in your footage of the plumb bob
Good job on the study! I would love to see the charts myself. But this tale has been told many times - check Lee Parks's explanation - especially in relation to the suspension. Hanging off is technically always better, but it becomes inefficient in tight corners because it takes more time and effort as compared to foot down.
I have heard of the explanation Parks gives before. How reducing the lean angle puts the suspension at a more advantageous angle, since friction in the fork tubes would prohibit it from working optimally at steep lean angles. I have never seen any actual data or equations that quantifies the difference in performance, given different lean angles and how much the lean angle can actually be reduced by hanging off. As I showed with both empirical data and equations, the lean angle reduction provided by body positioning is very limited. Questions I have: - Does changing the angle of the fork tubes by 5 degrees have a major influence on their performance? - Does this reduction in performance lead to significant changes in tire traction? I will look into these questions further. The answers are not obvious, and I have never seen any data regarding this.
@@MikeonBikes how about the ground clearance? These 5 degrees can make a difference even for mere mortals. Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts. Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas. If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference.
Ground clearance, sure. Why do 5 degrees matter? Do you have any equations or data that quantifies this? "Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts." That did not answer my question. The fact that the alignment of the axle bolts is important has nothing to do with the difference in tire performance for say 40-45 degrees of motorcycle lean angle. "Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas." Maybe. Do you have any data or equations for this? "If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference." You are comparing apples to oranges.
@@MikeonBikes Equations for ground clearance? You don't need them if your pegs start to scrape the asphalt - that was my point. Bolts - it's not about them - it's about friction in forks if the tubes are not aligned - it means the wheel is not moving as freely as it could - it means less traction. This is the same principle that applies when the bump is pushing the wheel but it cannot move because of the poor alignment. Equations for rolling on gas? I don't have them - it's obvious that the force applied to the ground should be pointed backwards, not sideways... Apples to oranges? You'd be amazed how much in common there's between swimming and riding...
In my experience, the big thing is if you're leaned over, set up for the turn and it's sharper/ entering too fast. You have room and you're in position to deal with it, you likely can correct and won't run wide. If you hit a bump or something the bike is much more stable. This is more on roads, but it makes huge difference in those situations. Slow speed, counter lean is your friend. Most commuting type stuff, neutral is best.
My only thought is that hanging off might help you to ride 'looser' on the road (not racetrack), reducing the de-stabilising effect of mid-corner bumps. Agree it is probably more a confidence technique rather than physics - maybe a bit of both 😄
Back in the day it was more about reducing lean angle and getting stability while steering with the back wheel. Those old 2 strokes were not very forgiving getting on the gas at high lean
This is very interesting, however, I think there might be something to be said at extreme amounts of bike lean like in professional racing, where those guys are leaning so far, their lean angles would put them past the safety point of tire patch grip. In other words, that 5 deg of lean angle Marc Marquez saves by hanging off might be the difference between making the turn or lowsiding because there’s just not enough tire left for enough contact patch - whereas at mortal rider lean angles, that 5 deg might not make as much difference. 🤔. Personally, I always hang off to some degree when taking turns and sweepers very fast because I’d rather keep more of the tire’s meat on the ground even if that’s just 5 degrees of angle savings. I feel it’s safer especially if something happens that requires me to tighten my turning radius during the turn.
You have a point regarding extremes of tyre contact but until that point, any lean off dead vertical has pretty much the same contact patch. Given the shape of the tyre, there is no extra or more "meat" as you say. It's all totally a function of the center of mass (not gravity) in relation to the point of contact. Hanging-off or not doesn't alter that. I would contend that the main reason Marquez gets off and down is boot clearance with the track (footpegs) and to enable his knee to feel the surface.
Leaning the upper body out in a turn ( or kissing the mirror) automatically creates counter steer which is what the bike needs to initiate lean and make it through the turn.
I think hanging off and knee down helps you finding limit on how much you are comfy leaning your bike. if you close your eyes and try to walk you gonna use your hands as hitting prevention mechanism automatically, so your knee becomes a sensor for you to not to go down.
Kevin Schwantz had a much different style that you could see was different from any others on the track. He leaned over but his upper body was move towards the bike's CG. His lower body & knees exactly the same as the others leaning. You notice his upper body always hugging the gas tank keeping the CG over the bike more. I would love to see you test his style like you did here. He was able to slide into corners then control it from bucking him off out of the corner all before computers & traction control on 500cc 2 stroke with a on off switch throttle. Don't think many modern day riders could pull it off.
When you go fast bike is slow responding and heavy, so leaning is an option. In slow speeds it is too sensitive so a top control is much more precise and managable. A way i see it.
I think it doesn’t matter until you’re corner G force would require scraping the tarmac to maintain balance. Clearly you need to corner slower to stay under your bikes maximum lean angle or corner faster and manipulate your center of mass to keep from scraping the tarmac. The benefit of hanging off the side is carrying more Gs through a corner. It’s not a cause-effect relationship either, it’s a requirement. At any cornering G requiring less than maximum lean angle the only other difference will be in exit torque due to driving on the smaller diameter of the rear tire in its leaned over state. This is because a motorcycle tire doesn’t have a constant profile.
Thank you for proving what I have debated based on logic for ages; that hanging off means less when it comes to reducing lean angle the more you are leaned over! Also, again according to my non-mathematical logic, the more you are leaned over, the more it pays to raise your upper body in reducing lean angle. Or put another way; sitting bolt upright at 60+ degrees of lean probably reduce lean angle more than hanging way off with chest on the tank. PS! Mike Hailwood would have been thrilled to see this video - he was never convinced hanging off gave any particular benefits.
this and the other small factors like sticking out your knee, or whole leg can sum up a huge difference in racing. But its still pointless in the street tho. Its even dangerous to lean in corners in the street because in blind corners it delays seeing whats front of you (it can be a traffic jam or an oncoming car in the wrong lane etc...)
Hanging off can still be beneficial though. In a low traction situation (like rain) you would have a much smaller maximum lean angle, and being able to reduce your lean by 4 degrees can save you (in addition to your line and speed, of course).
I feel more confident in corners leaning off the bike too. I wonder if it’s mostly a psychological and physiological thing because you’re positioning your body in the way you want to go, so it feels more like that’s what will happen - like you’re relying more on your body and less on the machine under you.
Maybe it has less to do with the overall physics of the center of gravity and more how you feel that center of gravity in your body while riding. Just speculating. I’m a noob.
So you can reduce your lean angle by 10%. That is the difference between winning and losing for sure. If Marquez wasn't leaning he would have to slow down because he is riding at the limit of lean. I think the point is that the race line among other things have a larger impact but moving the CG keeping everything else the same means you can corner faster.
I was once told ... The bike is the bucket, your body is the water. Any water on the outside of the bucket is not added to the weight transferred to the ground. (Traction) Inertia throws the weight outward & downward through the tyre. The greater the angle the more weight added to traction. The more body on the inside the more weight added to traction.
You forgot to, or simply didn't, address why a reduced lean angle is even thought to be better. Because of the shape of the tyre and that the contact patch area doesn't really change with degrees of lean, the only factor involved is the center of mass. The relationship between the center of mass and the contact doesn't change for a given speed, whether you lean or not. Grip is exactly the same. That explains the lack of difference in lap time.
I totally appreciate the work you put in, also I think a lot of the assumptions are close to accurate. Still I think the conclusion is wrong. First of all, your hanging on the sportsbike is not very good.( according to the video) Therefore the effect is lower. The reduce of lean in degree is as a rule of thumb about 5 degrees per riding style (push to neutral to hang) depending on the bike and driver it can be about 2 degree more or less (per style). (there have been studies about this from the ifz Germany). this means that the difference between pushing the bike down and hanging is about 10 to 12 degree difference - which at the physical max of 45 degree lean (at tire friction coefficient of 1) is about 25 % lean angle reduction with the right body position. I think that is pretty solid. Also there are more advantages to hanging than just lean angle.
It would be interesting to see how many G's you can pull for different body positions. I'm also thinking about how body position changes the conditions of sliding the bike.
You hit on what I was thinking. It’s hard to measure lean angle and speed with the same rider if you/they prefer one method over the other. The comfort and confidence factor is too large.
As an exercise, try turning the bike through a corner while leaving it as straight up and down as you can. The only way to achieve this is to get off of the bike more. You literally push the bike away from you. In your front facing shots (shot by the rear camera) - you are going with the bike as it leans over with little body adjustment. If you want to reduce lean angle and increase speed - move your body off and leave the bike where it is - you will be able to go faster. I recommend doing my experiment on a mini road racer or mini supermoto. The effects will be more pronounced but directly transferable to larger bikes.
Hang off as much as you want without providing any steering input, it will do almost nothing. The only real way to turn a motorcycle is to put steering input in. We've known this forever, whatever you're taking about is in your head or you are providing input as you hang off.
Someday you must experience the "no-body steer" bike at the california superbike school. you will realize it has no effect and you've been countersteering this whole time.
Personally, one of the BIGGEST differences hanging off makes, is that shifting the weight to the inside, makes the bike much lighter to steer in that direction, so steering input can be quite a bit quicker and smoother, instead of muscleling the bike quite as much
So i haven't seen a legit comment yet but the real science of leaning off is to create more force on the rear suspension for grip. This helps exiting corners because obviously the more grip out of the corner the better. This also helps with the balance of the motorcycle. The more your synchronized with your bike the stable/faster you can be. Stay Safe!!!
Could it be that reducing lean angle is not necessarily about increasing cornering speed or grip, but it also has an effect on time to turn in and time it takes to pick the bike pack up to drive out with maximal power. Less time leaned over means less time to get the bike straight and go full throttle.
The way you hang off makes a big difference. You can move your backside off and leave your shoulders inline with the centre of the bike. You can leave your backside in place and shift your shoulders (good for road riding) or do both like GP riders do. They also move as far forward as possible to keep weight on the front tyre. With wide bars like your Motard you are not going to be able to hang off very far so cannot compare to a bike with clip-on bars. On a GP bike when your tyres are on the limit hanging off makes the difference between crashing and keep racing.
This. Hanging off butt and shoulders gets your weight so far forward. It feels like you're draping our body over the front wheel; that's what I feel like I'm trying to do. My helmet up under the mirror on a street legal bike. I found this feels "right" in tight and extended curves like switchbacks, in the 30-40 mph range, where you need to use more maintenance throttle through the curve (vs shorter curves which are mostly coasting/trailbraking before hitting a distinct apex). Getting your weight to the front feels like the more important aspect. in this context. Followup vid could investigeate the front:rear weight shift potential. But at very low speed hair pins, I prefer to keep my body straight up (like dirt biking). Better view, and better able to recover a rear slide. If you're hanging off on the super low speed hair pins, you'll tip over quicker if your rear breaks loose. If you're body is up, you have some ballast, keeping your upper body in place while the bike slides out beneath you. I'm pretty sure GP riders do this too, on courses with the super slow hair pins. Different leans for different corners!
If Mike was my science teacher in school, I would've gotten things so much better
Thanks!
@josephbuckler3919 somehow I'm not so sure about becoming a barber...
Me :
what?... *rewind 10 sec...
what?... *rewind 20 sec
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂👍👍👍
A few degrees lean angle is quite significant in racing. Would be more interesting to calculate the difference in cornering speed for the given maximum lean angle of a motogp bike.
Gnerko93 Especially at corner exit where drive is more important
Yeah, this is what I was thinking. 4 degrees less of lean angle means you have four more degrees of lean that you can get, meaning you can go some amount faster and still lean as much. His tests largely held speed constant to judge the lean angle differential, which is why his lap times weren't affected.
Lean angle has no impact on speed, but it does have impact on how much speed you choose to use.
Maxwell Schmidt exactly! With less lean angle, he could’ve taken that corner that much faster, improving his time. He’s just too scared to take that corner faster.
Yup, whenever i take corners not using lean out techniques, my bike feels like shooting outside the corner. But whenever lean out is applied i take the same corner with faster approach without any doubts. And that 4degree means world of difference in a GP bike shooting out 250HP.
@@maxwellschmidt235 A professional rider on a moto Gp bike can use that 4 degrees , or even 1 degree to go faster , those guys are always at full lean , and that's the difference between pro and amateur , and I agree with you totally
This is my main thing that captivates me about MotoGP and motorcycle racing in general. The science behind all this is absolutely memorizing
4 degrees is a very significant difference... the fact that one is more or less capable to benefit from those degrees in terms of lap time is a completely different story...
Most of us will never reach the maximum lean angle of a bike, and so I'd argue that not wasting energy moving your body is more useful than keep your bike more upright. But, if you learned to ride by hanging off, or if pretending you're in motogp makes you feel great, there's no escaping the mental side.
@@jasonjayalap I would say if it is for a track day, the hand out do make u feel more comfortable and the bike would more stable for sure. But if its for riding in mountains maybe its pretty same since most of us will not lean too much there
did he factor in this also helps in managing tyres throughout race and also the riders height at world class matters alot. if you're small, you really have to hang off the bike to get the bike to turn.
look at toprak vs bautista. aside toprak insane breaking skills, toprak barely has to hang off the bike to take a corner and compared to bautista is fighting demons trying to hang his body so far off the bike just to turn it.
You are a Physicist or an engineer? I (as a physicist) say that your analysis is pretty spot on! Kudos!
Engineer. Thank you!
It is not lateral acceleration but centripetal acceleration for a=v^2/r
@@flippyfiller Yup, the lateral acceleration for a motorcycle.
kineticorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/2015-01-1422-validation-of-equations-for-motorcycle-and-rider-lean-on-a-curve.pdf
@@flippyfiller Well,... strictly speaking, centripetal acceleration is the lateral acceleration in a circular motion. Since in a track you rarely follow a strictly circlular motion, but rather a combination of straight, elyptical, hyperbolic, also circular...etc, it makes more sense to refer to lateral and longitudinal acceleration! So, Mike used the correct term! Richard Feynman said at some point in an interview, that he doesn't understand why people are so obsessed with knowing the names of things, when they should be focusing on understanding their nature. The way I see it, things don't inherently have names, but they always have the physical properties, that they are supposed to have, irrespectively of the name we decide to give them.
@@flippyfiller geeezzzzz stop trying to measure D!ck$. Anyone who understands this is pretty darn smart (that includes you I'm sure).
What about the "sail effect" of hanging off which increases wind resistance on the inside of the turn and facilitates the turn? I think that alone explains why you were faster on long sweepers hanging off. Long sweepers are high-speed turns and increasing wind resistance on the inside of the the bike by itself will turn the bike and allow less lean angle and more confidence to go faster.
sail effect works really well on braking too, popping up and opening your knees drops a whole lot of speed before you even touch the brakes, there's no way hanging off doesn't apply some force to help in the turn.
@@Ledfndr Yes! Exactly.
@@Ledfndr Thats what I thought it was more for as well
Man you are a goldmine.. By far the best TH-cam channel for riders! You definitely deserve more views!
I agree, Mike is great! Buuuuut, you can't just discount channels like motojitsu. So when you say by far, i have to disagree 🤘 what a great time we live in to be able to get information like this. I'm a little older so i was riding when there was no TH-cam, no rider aids... Just you and the bike and you have to figure it out
This is by far the best informative video i've seen on youtube in a long time. You sir have earned a sub
Well as an 32 years old and a 2003 R6 rider for 7 years now, i got to say that your body going out of the bike is really important, I'm almost always using batlax tires and they wore off very quickly but the grip is awesome, the thing is when your tires are wearing off you feel the rear dancing and the more you lean the motorcycle, more dangerous it is and I try to lean my body more and the bike less so that i won't go to the ground and up until today, i never went, i got some close calls and learn to lean my body more without the bike and it works wonders... All this in the city were the roads are bad and you have traffic and lights, not on track were you go full speed without worrying with other vehicles, and I'm not a reckless driver, sure i did over speed limits sometimes but when there's no traffic and plenty of space to do it. Anyway, if you're talking about safety and not speed, yeah leaning is very important to me, i feel more safe to maneuver my bike and faster if something happens in the city by adjusting my body more and less the bike just because my body would interfere less and toke more time in some situations than the bike and i can alter the direction with the bike smoother while my body is still changing positions. In my honest opinion, just drive the way you feel more comfort because it's not only the race or speed, the feeling of riding a bike is something i can't feel on anything else and that's the most important thing to me. Please be safe and enjoy your corners fellow riders. Sorry for bad inglish, love from Portugal 👊😎
Love your videos man, I only watch your channel for a couple of hours but I learned so much of you appreciate it!
Hanging off and keeping that few degrees margin allows faster correction in an unexpected situation. Being able to tighten the curve might be very helpful on road conditions. Thanks for the movie!👍🏼
Yes, this is why it's super important. Yamaha champions really puts this into perspective. As they say, "load the bike before you work the bike." Every movement takes time and adds stress to the physics. Both things you don't have much of when going fast on a bike.
Awesome analysis Mike. I haven’t seen anyone else in video land take such a comprehensive approach. There’s usually so much opinion and bragging involved in others viewpoints
Thank you! Indeed.
Something to think about is the stability a bike gets when hanging of (half butt) and still maintain most of the pressure through the outside leg and footpeg. Cornering always creates movement in a bike, but when stable you can let the bike do its thing and concentrate on the lines. Compare it with a trailer with the COG before or after the axle.
Wow... Thank you. (I am an engineer with Ph.D.)..You just explained something I have been feeling, but just could not explain while I am riding for some times. ... Yes, body position (or hanging off) is important, but 'slow in' and 'fast out' with as good of line selection as possible at my level is the key !!! THANK YOU.. 🥰
"Slow in, Fast out" has much more to do with the traction circle and carrying more speed down the following straight. Explaining things one at a time makes sense. This video was about lean angle and hanging off.
Thanks for an excellent video. There is another thing to consider in street riding: staying in line with the bike gives far better vision, and this increases safety.
Dalahorse and proper pronunciation of Husqvarna, I like this video.
Borde fått med en blå gul flagga också!
Only thing missing the the correct pronunciation of Öhlins
I've found at the moderate lean angles I manage on the street, that when leaning off I have a lot more control over adjusting the lean angle mid corner. If the front or rear starts to slip, I've found that I can drop my weight down and lift the bike up to grip back up. I've also noticed at the same speed I tend to have far less lean angle than some people I ride with by not sitting straight up and down on the bike.
This video makes me want to try and get some data and see how much the feeling of reduced lean angle is in my head 😅. Its amazing how much reality and perception can differ with things like riding! Great video!
Man I love all your videos. It's the true reasons behind all of the myths and legends around motorcycles
Brother you single-handedly have taken the crown... best motorcycle content on TH-cam please keep up the awesome work
When you have not that great tyres (or below optimal temperature) or the pavement is not that grippy those few less degrees of bike angle really make a difference tho
KIND OF, i was wondering an i can safely say: Watch the difference between ISLE OF MAN TT AND MOTOGP.
In motogp, guys go fast and can use A LOT their body because the TRACK IS VIRTUALY PERFECT.
BUT in a road racing, you just CANT DO IT, you need to keep a classical riding style cause a normal road has a lot of bumps and different grip levels along its way, sometimes along one corner path.
SO with your body BEING LESS OUTSIDE THE BIKE, its is FASTER and SAFER to recover from any abnormality.
IF you do the motogp body positioning style in road race, you will NOT HAVE TIME TO RESET your body position and SAVE the failure.
So, its safer to ride in a less extreme positioning when youre in a road.
@@evilzinabyssranger5695 you know where you can stick your caps lock?
@@evilzinabyssranger5695 I think it’s more dangerous to lean the bike on shit roads than it is to hang off. Tar snakes, debris, water, oil, potholes, all cause loss of traction. The more your bike is leaning during the slip, the better chance you have of crashing
This is slightly above my paygrade but I just love the scientific approach. And the editing is great. Hats off to you, sir.
Hej Mike!
I did the same thing to counteract the argument against chicken strips.
Bike: Tracer 900 / Fj09
With a new tire, I took a fast route while hanging off measuring the chicken strips left behind.
Then I took the same route without hanging off. Times pretty much the same.
Indeed the 2nd time, there were no chicken strips and even though the difference was less than 1cm, I felt a lot more confident hanging off without having to worry about scraping pegs, etc. At the same time, in short low-speed mountainish corners I saw that I was faster while not hanging off thus, I try not to.
Bra jobbat, love the videos since the first upload ❤️
You say that leaning off only helps a small amount of degrees. But every degree matters because every degree matters for the amount of tyre on the tarmac. You see it with beginning track riders. Often very slow not using their body and have having high lean with really slow laptimes. Also entering corners to slow because the brake to hard. Release the brake to early and unload the front suspension and front tyre and ruin the corner speed. I really liked the comparison with supermoto between legg out and body out. Very interesting.
Amount of tyre on the tarmac? I'd actually contend there is no difference once off-vertical. The shape of the tyre means it hardly changes until you reach the absolute extreme.
@@DiscoFang It depends on the shape and wear of the tyre. The tyre is not perfectly round and tapers off to the side. And yes indeed when comparing lean angles one can argue that at some lean angles the difference is almost zero. One could even say that a very worn tyre on the track that as gotten a more triangle like shape has better grip on a very specific lean angle. In general you can say that more lean on the bike means less tarmac on the road, even tho under some angles the difference is pretty much zero.
That's me all over! Just done my second track day, made a vlog of both my first and second days if your interested, anyways I find exactly what you say, I'm not properly using my body to lean off and not carrying speed through the corners, I have been riding on the road for about 12 years though and think that has made it harder for me to change my riding style to lean off. Either way very interesting topic.
Lean angle is interesting and great work Mike. However, lean angle is only relevant for cornering speed if the ultimate tyre grip is affected, so what is the relationship between wheel angle and tyre grip (cornering force)? Perhaps the cornering force is more for +4 degrees from around 40 degrees (larger contact patch)? Perhaps race tyres are designed to give bigger contact patch at high lean angles compared to say a touring tyre where a larger patch is desirable with bike upright, for load capacity and good tyre life? So many questions!!!
Even if race tyres have an increased contact patch at high lean angles, it just minimizes the fact that you can't open the throuttle too much at maximum lean angle. When racing superbikes you want to accelerate as soon as possible exiting the corners, and it happens at the moment when you leave the maximum lean angle. Ultimately, and racing is all about extract any little bit of performance from wherever you can, hanging off will help you to get this moment a little bit sooner.
So many variables but one worth mentioning is that it may be easier to find our reference points both visually and anatomically with the position we adopt in any given turn.
More hanging off -> less lean of the bike -> more tyre contact -> more traction -> faster corners
Love this TH-cam channel. Great videos, well presented, easy to understand information, a pleasure to watch all these vids. Thankyou Mike for all youve uploaded. 😎👍🏍️💨🇬🇧
Great series on motorcycle riding dynamics. I believe racing would provide the clearest canvas for bike dynamics, and I don't race. Riding on the street, I've found that remaining neutral increases my safety factor, I'm able to course correct or slow rapidly in a more controlled (comfortable as you mentioned) manner. Where I ride, I'm always going around blind turns, so I utilize the neutral position most of the time. Now and then, an open curve at speed presents itself and I'm more than happy to lean to the inside and forward. Thank you for your insights.
The quality of the surface and the Power of the bike are also factors. If you have to correct the lean angle due to loss of Grip and/or loss of traction a more upright seating Position helps you to respond to that(offroad). The onroad explanation seems to be more hanging off.
If Mike was my science teacher in school we wouldn't have got any work done. We'd be talking bikes all the time.
Great video and really useful. Thanks Mike
THANK YOU. Your videos are truly interesting and informative. And THANK YOU for not starting all of your youtube videos with "hey guys WHATS UP? Like virtually EVERY OTHER wannabe motorcycle and automotive video channel.
Glad you like them!
Really like your explanations and approach to explaining these things - nice work
ALSO you lean give a bit of an angle and puts the suspension under pressure, allowing you to get out of the corner faster, since the probability of a wheelie gets lower due to the compression of the suspension
True .. I think that is part of it.
You know something that would make a really interesting video: what is the ideal body size and weight for a rider in terms of performance. With modern bikes having almost unlimited power, I feel like weight is less of a detriment than it once was. On the contrary, a taller, heavier person (not fat, but just larger build) could potentially require less lean to maximize grip in a complex series of corners, possibly allowing them to maximize them better. It would probably vary on a track by track basis, but it's something interesting to think about compared to cars or karts where almost universally lighter and smaller=faster.
SURE. Thats what happen to Pedrosa in his latest years (apart from the bike which was developed for marc, they have very different riding styles so its enough to fuck Pedrosa life)
BUT Pedrosa was ALWAYS the guy who reach the highest lean angle in the paddock. GUESS WHY?
ALSO, heavier guys could put more temperature in the tires while Pedrosa couldnt (again, development issues help this phenomenon) and because of it, they had less wheelspin outside the corners.
I bet that Pedrosa would be unbeatable in 600 or 300 cc.
Your videos are always so interesting! Thanks for putting in so much time, effort and dialing in all the calculations!
The other thing it does is place your entire body weight at the centre of the bike because of how you hang off using your leg. I think this improves the weight distribution between the front and back & therefore increases net grip & the suspension response to road imperfections.
Yo Mike This video was so good I like this series video! Which is very helpful for each rider ! Plz do it more
Dude, 台灣 in the house!
我是一個英國人住在台中而且騎一台636ninja
the amount of effort you put into making your videos is amazing man! i dont think i cant understand the formulae, but i get the jist of it primarily because of the visual demonstrations on a bike!
Thanks for the video!
This results are indeed amazing.
The work you had was substancial!!
I shared this video!
Thanks for doing all that analysis Mike! even if it did surprise & confuse me... ;-)
You bet!
Such an amazing video with so much great info. Love the start with a toy, cardboard, book and nail. Love it!
I really enjoyed the video. The one take way that I wanted you to note in your next ponderings is that while the number of degrees stays fairly small most tires contact patches aren't spherical they tend to be ovular. This means even a slight decrease in lean angle can net a large increase in contact patch meaning that depending on the tire setup and bike geom it could have a vastly different level of effect. I think for the SuperMoto you did great but I feel like it's the bike that would have the absolute least amount of change in performance when compared to moto gp. I was always taught that basically the moment you are both on a bike and a road that requires hanging off to take corners effectively is the moment you need to slow down and hit the track. So I would love to see more information and research into how various tire setups can effect this equation as well.
I think a helpful thing to know would be the surface area of the contact patch at a given lean angle and speed, and the amount of force on said contact patch at a given lean angle and speed. I think this might be able to remove subjectivity altogether.
I remember back in the 80's, when I began riding, there wasn't much hanging off, but more knee out, as it was used as an air brake to rotate one around the corner better and slow down, with the inferior brakes and tires back then. Actually at the police mc courses today here in Denmark, the instructors don't recommend hanging off as there's to little to gain with modern tires, it's only advised to lean head in to corner and look out of the curve, but than again it's for fast driving on public roads and not extreme racing, where split second counts, where there are no obstructions to crash into.
9:24 --> this is the whole point: "fast out".
- Wide turns: Lower leaning angle means you can slightly anticipate the burst of power when exiting the curve because the bike is already more vertical.
Then, getting the pilot back to the neutral position on the saddle does not constitute a delay factor because as speed increases, so does the angular momentum of the wheels, which is what sustains the [now vertical] angle.
- Tight turns: Conversely, when the turn is tight, accuracy in drawing the right curve is more important, and that can be achieved more easily by using the arms and the steering. Also, when the turn is over, pulling back the bike is a blink, so the delay in full throttle is negligible. If however the pilot was knee out, pulling up the body to the neutral stance on the saddle would be a delay factor, because the angular momentum is lower, and hence the pilot has to exert momentum on the handlebar, delaying the acceleration.
The ideal next study would be to find the soft spot (dependent on speed, curve, and bike+pilot weight, and height) at which one should pick one or the other stance. I would be impressed if that hadn't been already addressed by MotoGP teams, but I think for their range of applications, speed are always so high to never get to need the neutral stance.
Masterpiece material, wonderful experiments and data collection, pleased to have seen it!
Liked and Subscribed! I think this was the third video that I watched from you. You have a different approach to motorcycling. It is scientific and your videos are very informative. You are doing a great job! Thank you and keep it up Sir!
This is an excellent video! Thank you for sharing Mike
My pleasure!
Tie a small plumb bob (fishing line) to something on the higher part of your fairing, then you’ll be able to calculate the angle to a more accurate level because you’ll have a plumb line in your footage of the plumb bob
Cool idea!
But that 4/5% lean angle could be the difference between falling off or not. I think leaning off if you can and where necessary. Awesome vid
Good job on the study! I would love to see the charts myself. But this tale has been told many times - check Lee Parks's explanation - especially in relation to the suspension.
Hanging off is technically always better, but it becomes inefficient in tight corners because it takes more time and effort as compared to foot down.
I have heard of the explanation Parks gives before. How reducing the lean angle puts the suspension at a more advantageous angle, since friction in the fork tubes would prohibit it from working optimally at steep lean angles.
I have never seen any actual data or equations that quantifies the difference in performance, given different lean angles and how much the lean angle can actually be reduced by hanging off.
As I showed with both empirical data and equations, the lean angle reduction provided by body positioning is very limited.
Questions I have:
- Does changing the angle of the fork tubes by 5 degrees have a major influence on their performance?
- Does this reduction in performance lead to significant changes in tire traction?
I will look into these questions further. The answers are not obvious, and I have never seen any data regarding this.
@@MikeonBikes great questions....
@@MikeonBikes how about the ground clearance? These 5 degrees can make a difference even for mere mortals.
Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts.
Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas.
If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference.
Ground clearance, sure.
Why do 5 degrees matter? Do you have any equations or data that quantifies this?
"Answering your questions - remember what they say to do when you install the front wheel? Bounce the forks several times to make sure they are parallel before tightening those axle bolts."
That did not answer my question. The fact that the alignment of the axle bolts is important has nothing to do with the difference in tire performance for say 40-45 degrees of motorcycle lean angle.
"Another argument - these degrees also define how early you can roll on gas."
Maybe. Do you have any data or equations for this?
"If Olympic swimmers can set their start jump angle with 1 degree precision, pro riders should feel the 5 degrees as a giant difference."
You are comparing apples to oranges.
@@MikeonBikes Equations for ground clearance? You don't need them if your pegs start to scrape the asphalt - that was my point.
Bolts - it's not about them - it's about friction in forks if the tubes are not aligned - it means the wheel is not moving as freely as it could - it means less traction.
This is the same principle that applies when the bump is pushing the wheel but it cannot move because of the poor alignment.
Equations for rolling on gas? I don't have them - it's obvious that the force applied to the ground should be pointed backwards, not sideways...
Apples to oranges? You'd be amazed how much in common there's between swimming and riding...
My mind blows too, thank you so much for the lean course 💪👍
In my experience, the big thing is if you're leaned over, set up for the turn and it's sharper/ entering too fast. You have room and you're in position to deal with it, you likely can correct and won't run wide. If you hit a bump or something the bike is much more stable. This is more on roads, but it makes huge difference in those situations. Slow speed, counter lean is your friend. Most commuting type stuff, neutral is best.
You must advice Motogp about things my friend, you got great knowledge, analysis ability and patience
If you want to use the leg out method, put lead in your boots. And think about moving ballast on the y axis changes things.
My only thought is that hanging off might help you to ride 'looser' on the road (not racetrack), reducing the de-stabilising effect of mid-corner bumps. Agree it is probably more a confidence technique rather than physics - maybe a bit of both 😄
Back in the day it was more about reducing lean angle and getting stability while steering with the back wheel. Those old 2 strokes were not very forgiving getting on the gas at high lean
This is very interesting, however, I think there might be something to be said at extreme amounts of bike lean like in professional racing, where those guys are leaning so far, their lean angles would put them past the safety point of tire patch grip. In other words, that 5 deg of lean angle Marc Marquez saves by hanging off might be the difference between making the turn or lowsiding because there’s just not enough tire left for enough contact patch - whereas at mortal rider lean angles, that 5 deg might not make as much difference. 🤔. Personally, I always hang off to some degree when taking turns and sweepers very fast because I’d rather keep more of the tire’s meat on the ground even if that’s just 5 degrees of angle savings. I feel it’s safer especially if something happens that requires me to tighten my turning radius during the turn.
You have a point regarding extremes of tyre contact but until that point, any lean off dead vertical has pretty much the same contact patch. Given the shape of the tyre, there is no extra or more "meat" as you say. It's all totally a function of the center of mass (not gravity) in relation to the point of contact. Hanging-off or not doesn't alter that. I would contend that the main reason Marquez gets off and down is boot clearance with the track (footpegs) and to enable his knee to feel the surface.
Leaning the upper body out in a turn
( or kissing the mirror) automatically creates counter steer which is what the bike needs to initiate lean and make it through the turn.
I think hanging off and knee down helps you finding limit on how much you are comfy leaning your bike.
if you close your eyes and try to walk you gonna use your hands as hitting prevention mechanism automatically, so your knee becomes a sensor for you to not to go down.
Kevin Schwantz had a much different style that you could see was different from any others on the track. He leaned over but his upper body was move towards the bike's CG. His lower body & knees exactly the same as the others leaning. You notice his upper body always hugging the gas tank keeping the CG over the bike more. I would love to see you test his style like you did here. He was able to slide into corners then control it from bucking him off out of the corner all before computers & traction control on 500cc 2 stroke with a on off switch throttle. Don't think many modern day riders could pull it off.
When you go fast bike is slow responding and heavy, so leaning is an option. In slow speeds it is too sensitive so a top control is much more precise and managable. A way i see it.
Wooow. You put some serious time and research into this video. Well done
nice work ...you put a lot of effort into this one.. good information
Thanks a lot!
👍you are most welcome
Another great Vid Mike! I teach that old saying.........slow in, fast out in my MC classes. I also say.........fast in, you don't come out, lol
ah... that would be fast in, last out... or more right... too fast in, last out... excluding block passes tactics
Absolutely love the music you throw on in the background of your vids.
I think it doesn’t matter until you’re corner G force would require scraping the tarmac to maintain balance. Clearly you need to corner slower to stay under your bikes maximum lean angle or corner faster and manipulate your center of mass to keep from scraping the tarmac. The benefit of hanging off the side is carrying more Gs through a corner. It’s not a cause-effect relationship either, it’s a requirement. At any cornering G requiring less than maximum lean angle the only other difference will be in exit torque due to driving on the smaller diameter of the rear tire in its leaned over state. This is because a motorcycle tire doesn’t have a constant profile.
Nice video!!! Thank you... There is always something to learn! Very true :)
Thank you for proving what I have debated based on logic for ages; that hanging off means less when it comes to reducing lean angle the more you are leaned over! Also, again according to my non-mathematical logic, the more you are leaned over, the more it pays to raise your upper body in reducing lean angle. Or put another way; sitting bolt upright at 60+ degrees of lean probably reduce lean angle more than hanging way off with chest on the tank. PS! Mike Hailwood would have been thrilled to see this video - he was never convinced hanging off gave any particular benefits.
Although hanging off does move the COG vertically down at a greater lean angle. Does this also have an effect?. Bet it makes the maths more fun 😉
You are the best Mike. Thanks.
this and the other small factors like sticking out your knee, or whole leg can sum up a huge difference in racing. But its still pointless in the street tho. Its even dangerous to lean in corners in the street because in blind corners it delays seeing whats front of you (it can be a traffic jam or an oncoming car in the wrong lane etc...)
Also you can pick up the bike and accelerate out faster if you hanging out off the bike.
Hanging off can still be beneficial though. In a low traction situation (like rain) you would have a much smaller maximum lean angle, and being able to reduce your lean by 4 degrees can save you (in addition to your line and speed, of course).
This is great content Mike, although I don't race at all, I really enjoyed the nerdy aspect of it ;)
I feel more confident in corners leaning off the bike too. I wonder if it’s mostly a psychological and physiological thing because you’re positioning your body in the way you want to go, so it feels more like that’s what will happen - like you’re relying more on your body and less on the machine under you.
Maybe it has less to do with the overall physics of the center of gravity and more how you feel that center of gravity in your body while riding. Just speculating. I’m a noob.
So you can reduce your lean angle by 10%. That is the difference between winning and losing for sure. If Marquez wasn't leaning he would have to slow down because he is riding at the limit of lean. I think the point is that the race line among other things have a larger impact but moving the CG keeping everything else the same means you can corner faster.
Very thorough work and interesting conclusions.
Yeah, Mike 'the bike' Hailwood never hung off. Didn't seem to slow him down. 😅👍. Great video.
I was once told ... The bike is the bucket, your body is the water. Any water on the outside of the bucket is not added to the weight transferred to the ground. (Traction) Inertia throws the weight outward & downward through the tyre. The greater the angle the more weight added to traction. The more body on the inside the more weight added to traction.
What is the role of footrest and weight distribution....
You forgot to, or simply didn't, address why a reduced lean angle is even thought to be better. Because of the shape of the tyre and that the contact patch area doesn't really change with degrees of lean, the only factor involved is the center of mass. The relationship between the center of mass and the contact doesn't change for a given speed, whether you lean or not. Grip is exactly the same. That explains the lack of difference in lap time.
I totally appreciate the work you put in, also I think a lot of the assumptions are close to accurate. Still I think the conclusion is wrong. First of all, your hanging on the sportsbike is not very good.( according to the video) Therefore the effect is lower. The reduce of lean in degree is as a rule of thumb about 5 degrees per riding style (push to neutral to hang) depending on the bike and driver it can be about 2 degree more or less (per style). (there have been studies about this from the ifz Germany).
this means that the difference between pushing the bike down and hanging is about 10 to 12 degree difference - which at the physical max of 45 degree lean (at tire friction coefficient of 1) is about 25 % lean angle reduction with the right body position. I think that is pretty solid. Also there are more advantages to hanging than just lean angle.
Mike you make our community proud🖖🖖
Thanks!
This is just really great! Good Job!
It would be interesting to see how many G's you can pull for different body positions. I'm also thinking about how body position changes the conditions of sliding the bike.
You hit on what I was thinking. It’s hard to measure lean angle and speed with the same rider if you/they prefer one method over the other. The comfort and confidence factor is too large.
As an exercise, try turning the bike through a corner while leaving it as straight up and down as you can. The only way to achieve this is to get off of the bike more. You literally push the bike away from you. In your front facing shots (shot by the rear camera) - you are going with the bike as it leans over with little body adjustment. If you want to reduce lean angle and increase speed - move your body off and leave the bike where it is - you will be able to go faster. I recommend doing my experiment on a mini road racer or mini supermoto. The effects will be more pronounced but directly transferable to larger bikes.
Hang off as much as you want without providing any steering input, it will do almost nothing. The only real way to turn a motorcycle is to put steering input in. We've known this forever, whatever you're taking about is in your head or you are providing input as you hang off.
Listen to Cody.
Someday you must experience the "no-body steer" bike at the california superbike school. you will realize it has no effect and you've been countersteering this whole time.
Beautifully put together 🙌loved it😁
didn't understand a thing, but it was fun to watch :)
I had Aprilia RS 125,, two stroke, the Valentino Rossi color scheme, bought new back then . Man I wish I had kept it as a collectible.
Personally, one of the BIGGEST differences hanging off makes, is that shifting the weight to the inside, makes the bike much lighter to steer in that direction, so steering input can be quite a bit quicker and smoother, instead of muscleling the bike quite as much
Very interesting, informative and enjoyable! Thank you!
No doubt I'm going to have to watch this video a couple more times because I did not catch all of the details. 😄 Great job on the analysis, Mike.
you had me at "do it" 😂😂🖒🙏 much blessings to you and your family.
Great video!
So i haven't seen a legit comment yet but the real science of leaning off is to create more force on the rear suspension for grip. This helps exiting corners because obviously the more grip out of the corner the better. This also helps with the balance of the motorcycle. The more your synchronized with your bike the stable/faster you can be. Stay Safe!!!
Could it be that reducing lean angle is not necessarily about increasing cornering speed or grip, but it also has an effect on time to turn in and time it takes to pick the bike pack up to drive out with maximal power. Less time leaned over means less time to get the bike straight and go full throttle.
The way you hang off makes a big difference. You can move your backside off and leave your shoulders inline with the centre of the bike. You can leave your backside in place and shift your shoulders (good for road riding) or do both like GP riders do. They also move as far forward as possible to keep weight on the front tyre. With wide bars like your Motard you are not going to be able to hang off very far so cannot compare to a bike with clip-on bars. On a GP bike when your tyres are on the limit hanging off makes the difference between crashing and keep racing.
This. Hanging off butt and shoulders gets your weight so far forward. It feels like you're draping our body over the front wheel; that's what I feel like I'm trying to do. My helmet up under the mirror on a street legal bike. I found this feels "right" in tight and extended curves like switchbacks, in the 30-40 mph range, where you need to use more maintenance throttle through the curve (vs shorter curves which are mostly coasting/trailbraking before hitting a distinct apex). Getting your weight to the front feels like the more important aspect. in this context.
Followup vid could investigeate the front:rear weight shift potential.
But at very low speed hair pins, I prefer to keep my body straight up (like dirt biking). Better view, and better able to recover a rear slide. If you're hanging off on the super low speed hair pins, you'll tip over quicker if your rear breaks loose. If you're body is up, you have some ballast, keeping your upper body in place while the bike slides out beneath you. I'm pretty sure GP riders do this too, on courses with the super slow hair pins.
Different leans for different corners!
not gunna lie, setting up for a corner and getting off the bike is so much god damn fun