That is the most sane answer I've seen in a while. All these videos about lean angle, trust your tyres and so on, mean nothing, if there is suddenly a bunsh of muddy dirt mid corner.
But as you learn the local roads, you can discover when to push and when to hold back, and also when you held back but didn't have to. It's interesting how a well balanced bike can hold a line where you thought it would be thrown off. A favorite stretch for me is a frost heaved cracked road that winds through forest - I savor seeing what I can do - where I can improve from the last run. Of course the factors that limit road speed are always in play.
Spoken like someone who actually rides. I'm in Australia Victoria and every pucker up moment I've ever had was due to road conditions or pot holes big enough to be buried in 😂. One time I swear I got a foot and a half in the air and somehow didn't wreck (dirt bikes started on helped)
@@jamesgeorgevellavella1961 For sure - all part of the challenge. Rode through a herd of deer one night - fortunately they were walking parallel to the road and stayed that way. LOL
I went to a track day. At the end of the day I said "okay I'll lean over more now that I got a good session in", and then I slid out and my day was over. It's a real concern not just a "fear".
I think this more applies to people like me who tear it up pretty good for your average sports bike rider, but can’t get a knee down and can’t use the lettering portion of the tires
@@tkschrome487sounds like me, but tbh, you shouldn’t be getting your knee down on public roads. Too many unknowns and no one will have any sympathy for you if you come off getting your knee down on a roundabout.
@@milesa-c3865 I tell people the same thing. Nobody cares how cool you are more than you do. I do however want to get a knee down even if it’s over exaggerated just for fun
In 1971, following and catching up to a friend on a twisty L.A. area canyon road on my 325 Honda, I entered a left curve near center line and finished close to road edge. In the process, experienced a curious floating sensation. Realized at exit that I had just done an unintentional two-wheel drift without losing essential traction and dumping myself in the road. WHEW! Scared myself good and slowed up. Have never again ridden so aggressively.
You could probably afford to push a little more, as tires have come a long way since ‘71.. although your body and mine alike are going the opposite direction.. so maybe just stay right where you are. Haha
@@mcgo3595 That is exactly my issue - bikes and tires keep getting better but no matter how hard I work, my body keeps getting older and more cranky. 😂
Ahhh, those wonderful sunny days with super sticky tires cornering like a boss, right until that loose gravel spilled by a truck appears mid-corner. That's why I'm not dragging my knee on the streets.
Getting experience riding offroad helps massively. I rode trials and enduro for 8 years and it made me a better rider- especially when it comes to feel for grip.
This channel is a masterpiece! Great work guys! 🏁🥇 I wrongly started on a gsxr600, and I was always afraid to push the bike, that I will lowside on every corner and never leaned enough. What I did after a second crash and a totaled motorcycle? I bought a smaller one, a CBR250r. I leard to lean and drag footpegs, leaned to the limit and touch my left hand on the ground. I gained confidence, learned to sit properly on the bike and so much else!
Well explained. A huge thing that helped me was learning that the tyres don’t just provide static friction, but also sliding friction. So if the tyres do slide, it’s not as if all grip is suddenly gone. Riding in the rain is a great way to test grip, even riding over the occasional white line or manhole cover on the road for some variety of experience.
It's great fun sometimes. Because lean angles are more modest in the rain, you can comfortably get the rear spinning and moving around without things getting out of control.
I grew up on dirt bikes and culminated in me earning an AMA Expert license in 125cc Motocross as a Jr. in H.S. Along the way I also competed in Trials and Flat track and TT. Learning to control a bike at extremely low speeds over obstacles as in Trials and then learning to slide at high speed on dirt as in Flat track and TT gave me the skills that the first time I rode a high performance street bike I very quickly learned that they could be driven at loss of traction time just like a dirt bike. For riders with less experience I do agree riding in the rain gives you a much milder slope of the loss of traction envelope. Another thing I think is helpful is learn to slide your bike into corners just using the back brake. When you feel comfortable sliding it at different angles and for different distances I think it helps calibrate your brain to what it feels like at loss of traction time. Really until you get compfortable sliding your bike both with the rear brake and with the throttle, you'll never be a fast skilled rider.
I'm a bit jealous, I grew up on bikes too but didn't get my first real dirt bike until I was 13. Ttr125 LE. I always wanted to compete but family didn't have the money or time.
My guy, get Dunlop Mutant tires. They’re absolutely incredible in the rain. I ride a liter bike and have tried all the Michelin Road series and also the continental version, I think the road 4s? And NOTHING beats the mutants in the rain. I also push them hard on dry pavements, and have been well over 110mph with standing water on the freeway and absolutely planted. Plus they look awesome and can handle some dirt
@@BikingVikingHH I will definitely look into them.. Running Angels on my 390 Duke, VFR came with Michelin Radials. Ride all year.. I was looking at Pilots..
@nonyabusiness4151 pilot power 2ct is one of my favorite tires. My number one favorite tire is the shinko stealth. They are a single compound tire but after warm up it's the stinkiest tire I've ever ridden. I run them on my r1's
Modern tires are very good in the rain. Avoid road marks and look for oil in the run off ( or wait about 15 minutes after the rain starts or think and/or think about when the last rain was) and it's all good. Of course pull back a little and maybe run in a higher gear just in case. But a good tire won't slide just because of water.
You need knowledge - not confidence. Fear saves your life. You never want to ride at the limit. You will encounter potholes, oil, sand, gravel and other vehicles on the road - even in turns. I've been riding motorcycles since 1978.
I'd put it like that: Riding a corner on the limits of traction should never be your A-plan on the road, but it sure helps if the ability to do so is available as a B-plan... exactly because there might be unforeseen obtacles, which might require you to suddenly ride a very dfferentcorner than you thought you needed to take.
100% agree that caution on the road will save your life. There are so many potential hazards you could encounter & one you didn’t mention is animal collisions. I too have been riding since 1977 & had my share of accidents in the first few years but I’ve been lucky & learnt from experience. Track riding is a whole different situation where you can more safely push it to the limit.
I ride year round in the northern USA. The point you made about different conditions giving you a perspective for grip was very well made. What you learn in the real world is that, while cold and rain are certainly not conducive to good traction, it still takes a lot to to overwhelm the tires and suspension of modern motorcycles. The key is to adjust your lines and inputs so that they are appropriate for the conditions.
Never had a lowside before thankfully (knock on wood). Have been in the cusp of a few though in rainy conditions, again, thankfully my Michelin Road Classics communicated their (near) loss of grip impeccably well each and every time both front and rear. But as a near daily motorcycle rider, I have come to realise there are only a few situations where I can really put my shoes/pegs to the ground. As road debris, road surface and corner angle/radius all are a major factor. Also knowledge of your route plays a major role, but that is person specific, as I know I am a slow/carefull learner. I did nearly have a highside though, but that was my own fault. I wanted to leave a roundabout full blast but failed to see the sand that was piled up centimeters thick for over 10 meters long right in the middle of the exit lane. Not sure how I caught the bike, I was simply glad I was laying like superman on top of my motorcycle while she was still upright, instead of being like a patrick starfish on the ground😅 In hindsight I definitely should have expected the sand (in any severity) to be there as right next to it there is a massive sand depot and trucks come and go rather frequently.😅 Ride safe✌️
I rode Dunlop slick rear that was *shaved* on both sides in the power/drive part of the tire, and didn't run warmers. I was *very* careful and had a delicate throttle hand, but still rode fast. You could *feel* that the tires weren't there, especially when cold. It did feel like walking on ice. I rode them way longer than I thought I should have, until I had a lil slide that was bigger than I wanted. Thennn I changed the tire. For me that was a good exercise in both throttle control and learning grip. On a 200 rear I still had a LOT of edge grip despite having no drive grip.
What was a game changer for me was buying Michelin Road 6 tires. NOT because of the way they felt, but rather their price and reputation. I used to buy cheaper summer tires and because their narrow temperature window for grip, I’d often feel then slip when cold, which made me doubt them at all times. I then bought the Road 6s and told myself “these are the best and my wallet knows it, TRUST them”, and so I started exploring their limits. Yes they have a wider temp range, but even on a hot day where theoretically the summer tires would perform better, I TRUSTED them more, and rode more confident. Now I only run Dunlop Mutant tires which have less (dry) grip than anything I’ve ran before because of their tread pattern, but I know what I and a tire can do, and run them harder than anything previous. Also because of the play the tread blocks have, they’re a little loose without slipping, and you can really get used to the feeling of grip at the limit, and best of all, get a little slip angle when powering out of a corner… I’m basically Tokyo Drifting everywhere now 😂🙄😬
I had 2 back to back track days scheduled and the second day it rained. I went out on the first session and low sided but while it was unfortunate and I broke some parts, the feeling of losing grip on my ninja 400 was something I never really experienced and it was an invaluable lesson.
But here lies the biggest problem. To know your limit, you have to cross it. In our case as riders that means, you have a good chance of crashing your bike. Not even talking about injuries, but not everybody shits dollar bills and can afford to crash and fix his bike. Also, crashing on public roads has a way better chance of demilishing your whole bike, as it hits different obstacles.
Great video and really helpful. This past July i ran 2 track days on Bridgestone S23's with a GSXR1000. Tons and tons for grip from those tires. I can't say enough good things about them. Never once felt like i was losing grip. 28PSI Rear an 30 PSI Front btw.
Take your pressure right after you finish your session. You should be 32 psi front and 31/32 psi rear HOT. You'll need to adjust your pressure ALL DAY after each session to keep those numbers in the right window. Don't be lazy! Those tires are very good to start with. Soon you'll need better though. When you arrive at the track you can start with 30 psi front and 25/27 rear COLD. Have fun!
I know you mean well, and I know most riders won't need slicks to beat their personal best but saying you never felt they lacked grip doesn't mean anything at all if we don't know how fast of a rider you are. I see people on trackdays not able to get their knee down on their Panigale V4, doing 30 seconds slower laptimes and complaining their Bridgestone Rs11's lack grip. And I see geezers on clapped out zx9r's running in A group on old Diablo Rosso Corsa's. A TH-cam comment on how well Brand X, model Y tyres grip is useless people. Just saying😂
Worst tiers I ever had, at least rear (MT10SP, road only, no track). Front never failed but I never pushed it because of the rear. Rear slid often, in all conditions, on perfect asphalt, with various tire pressure, even with a passenger. Totally lost trust in the ability of the bike to grip even in sight lean. After a season I replaced them with Michelin Road 6 and the bike never slipped again.
I broke my fear by leaning until the crash bar hit the ground and I low sided. I have had no doubt I can lean the shit out of it on dry ground. I have also done a bunch of circles gradually increasing lean in a dirty parking lot where trucks are unloaded with a lot of gravel patches. I could feel the wheel slide out just a little at speeds I would take a turn at. Did the same after it rained. Big circle of gradually increasing lean. Did a few hard stops too.
The one constant through all of my grip experiences was something you didn't mention, the tire traction limit slip indicators. I don't have electronics and creep up to it by messing with pressure, line, lean, hang, trail, markers, and speed lap by lap. It's really fun feeling those micro slips and approaching the limit of the permutation I'm doing at the time. I've never used TCS but gotta imagine that expecting the electronics to handle your inputs has got to make feeling that harder.
My bike of choice is a Kawasaki ZX-14R. Best thing I ever did to..learn about grip was commute daily to work in Northern California year round for 3 years. Nothing like a damp mountain road with pine needles strewn all over it to..teach about grip, throttle control and concentration. Riding up and down those roads with a string of cars/trucks behind, did wonders for my perceptions of grip, appreciation for the very tall 1st gear (yes you can..ride in 1st gear on a very steep..downhill road) and respect for both Metezler tires, Kawasaki R&D and 200 rwhp.
I swaped my Battle Axe sport touring tyres for Perelli Super Corsa Diablo's, now my FireBlade sticks to the road like glue, they warm up really quick and you can really get the power on at high lean angles 👍
I learned traction control as a?teen on the track. My father had me ride one of his old junker bikes past the traction limit until I went down at a safe sub 100km/h speed. After about a dozen times, I began to get a good feel for the edge.
Well simply... a racer drops a bike and they go get on another one. A average joe drops a bike and hes at risk of being out thousands of dollars and potentially losing their employment if theyre injured. So yeah, the fear is reasonable.
Thanks for a very educational video! About to head on my second track day tomorrow and it was good to watch this as I almost high sided on my last outing on my first track day.
Great video. I just started track days last fall. Started on Perelli tires. Wasn't feeling comfortable in the turns. Some slippage. Put on a set of Dunlap Q5 tires. Love them. Gained tons of confidence leaning to toes and knees dragging. After 4 track days. I got moved up to intermediate. Much better class and pace. Having a blast riding on a real track.
@@keim3548 Yes, the rosso II are made in china. The Dunlaps are clearly marked as made in the USA. With American flag. A clear difference on the track. I will stick with the Q5 for now. Very comfortable and confident in them. Best tire I have run in 40 years of riding.
this is where I'm at in my riding right now. i want to 'trust' my tires, i know they're good and i know i can get way lower but every time i lean past my 'usual' or 'comfort' level i have it in my head that it's gonna instantly wash out and low side! only on like the 5th month of riding so i guess i have plenty of time. no rush here lol. 05 Honda CBR600rr/ Michelin Pilot Power 2CT's front n rear.
I dropped 2.5 seconds off my PB in 3 sessions by riding a SC1 until it was completely dead. I couldn’t go around a left hand turn without the rear wiggling even at slow speeds with no gas. Threw on a fresh SC1 and immediately felt the huge difference. It taught me so much.
You're so right about learning. I had two mates did the 125cc to DAS to 600 together. Bloke1 took hints, learnt from the quick and safe ( ie don't crash) boys. Bloke 2 didn't. Reckoned he knew all he needed. Crashed every bike he ever had in some very odd accidents. Yes he survived. ( he once flipped an R1 and walked away ! )
Riding in the rain, weaving through rush hour traffic in Cardiff, Wales taught me a lot about grip, where to push it and where not to. This translated to experience on track days. I was flabbergasted just how much grip Michelin Pilot slicks have. My gixxer could corner much faster than I could ask of it
riding on even slightly gravelly lanes or in the wet gives me a sense of foreboding of the worst that might happen so i tend to keep as upright as i can, which means slowing right down on bends, and i know at times it's way slower than i can/should (probably) do, but i know it's a confidence thing, and i don't feel like i want to explore the limits to find out, even though i have well reviewed & good condition michelin road 5 tyres, the odd time i've felt a bit of lost grip it really shits me up lol, so i stay well below the limit if possible. probably some of it stems from a few lower speed spills when i hit some wet leaves and later some mud, the feeling of helplessness as it instantly went down aint something i want to risk again. thanks for the vid & i'll re-watch to try improve but it's a tough one, especially as i'm in my sixties and things take longer to heal these days !!. GL
You are so right we are of the same age and I feel exactly the same I ride a busa with road 6 tyres and some slow right down when maybe should not. Everyone keep right side up.
right aggressively over aggressively in a controlled area but do it slowly try to make the bike slide and skid and wash out the front wheel while you’re going slow so you know what point through familiarizing yourself through seat of the pants muscle memory, that threshold will be
Michelin Street Pilot R tires are amazing for general road use as well as going fast in the twisties, they are one of the most well balanced tires I've ridden on for all road conditions - even dirt back roads.
I remember the first time (on track) I went from a top quality road tyre to slicks... My g*d the difference was incredible - especially the side grip. The bike just dropped so fast onto the side and then stuck like glue!
I practice learning to read grip by taking my honda monkey out in a parking lot during heavy snow. The most useful thing I learned was how it feels when the front slides. It happened over and over but no fear a walking speed on a bike I can just about lift completely off the ground.
Thanks for the topic a great explanation. I'm heading out for a couple track days tomorrow, running Diablo Rosso IVs on my RS660. I'm a new rider (started 10 months ago) but I rode all winter on mostly wet roads and I've done six track days since the weather got better, one of them in pooring rain. I'm still insecure about where full lean is with my tires in the dry. I still have tiny chicken-strips but my body position is pretty good so I've been reducing lean quite a bit. I think I have felt "pushing the front" in few corners but I'm not sure. One thing that happened in a hairpin was that I overdid my body position with a little too much weight for the speed and turn radius - it felt like I was falling but the steering/tire geometry saved me by automatically turning into the fall - and surprise, the tires held. My guess is that I have a bit more lean at my disposal. Anyone running the same tires willing to share their experience?
More awesome content yet again from you Dan. Funny enough I did MX back in the day so have always been comfortable with my road bikes losing it on the back. Last week at Brands on the GP circuit trackday it rained after lunch and guess what, I was one of the few riders out on track and on Michelin Power Cup 2s on a 201bhp RSV4-RF. I do think the MX thing among other things gives you that little bit more help with understanding the fine line between grip and no grip, if you know what I mean. Thank you as always for you massive contribution to us followers Sir👍🏻
Maybe two more possibilities: - i bought myself a small cheap motor bike equipped with kind of a stuntcage to test the limits without the fear of destroying my "good Bikes". - i visited a maximum lean angle training session with a provided bike, where you can go the limits without failing. My provdided bike was an old SV650 with normal street tires, and when you experience, what is possible with this setup, you get more trust in your own bike-tyre-setup 🙂
The environment is the greatest trainer for your skills! The second best is your goals and then motivation together. I know that very well living here in finland, half the year we have wet, snow and ice! You learn how to ride bike on ice and snow when you are kid, then moto and cars. This is the reason why we have some great drivers in all motor sport! Next winter I will train again on ice with my supermoto bike with special studs on tires. It is very fun and you can get different challenges to your training plan. If you do all the same, there will be no gain! Wellcome to train here, you can meet Mika Kallio and many good riders on ice with studs!
Amazing video... Ride on a 300cc with track tires are an amazing confidence lesson... Whan you see what people are doing... slowly you get the courage to step by step... achive inveedible lean angles... Furthermore.. nothing taste sweeter than pass a 4 cylinder.bike.. with a 300cc on a track...
My bike career is 1.5 seasons. I bought an ADV with knobbies but tyre center was far more worn out than sides, still enough thread on them but almost perfect square. Since I do not care for offroad, changed to 80/20 street orientated metzelers. To my surprise, new street tires performs far better on loose gravel than semi old, flat knobbies, my speed increased by ~20 mph and I feel far more confident. I have almost no experience but can say for sure, I better go gravel on new street tires than worn down knobbies. No idea how it works, but backside doesn't swirl around anymore even on tyres that are not made for gravel.
A lot of people ride out of necessity and not from a place of personal responsibility, their motorcycles, and their driving skills are of little concern to these riders, that's why there are so many deaths . . . to be a great rider is easy! It only takes a little practice to be prepared when it matters most I'm not sure about overseas, but, if you're in the states, seek out your nearest MSF rider course and you will learn exactly what you need to be an excellent rider!
True. I was going all out on the rider course's provided training bike, 250cc. After I bought my vulcan s650, I suddenly get too sacred. Putting crash/engine guards has helped but I still hesitate to lean as much as i think the bike can actually handle
1º: Learn a notorious amount of theory(Body positioning/How to brake/Use of throttle).....2º: Judge the situation/enviroment based on your current knowledge.....3º: Apply the theory pusshing gradualy more to the limits each "session".....As time goes by the rider will become better and safer at it.
Excellent video. My learning to ride MSF course decades ago was a rain or shine thing. It never occurred to me that it would downpour. The first day was beautiful and in the classroom. The second day was ride day, and the sky opened up with so much rain I swear I saw Noah's Ark. Made me a much better rider though, as I never developed a fear of riding in the rain like a lot of riders I knew over the years.
The fact that the grip limit can be exceeded sometimes without any signs has changed my riding style dramatically. Only time and experience is changing that for me.
Moto gp riders put a knee down to reduce lean angle at high speeds. The knee acts as a tripod for the 2 wheels to keep the bike from sliding out at max lean angle. The goal is to reduce lean angle. Not increase it. You can accelerate quicker when the bike is upright or has less lean.
I rode for years in Vancouver BC ,all year around. It was so refreshing not to see other riders waving back at me like some sort of summer toy hobbyist enthusiast fraternity. The price, nine months of rain and cold. I've learned to feel the bike and the feedback it gave me in those cold rainy winter days. I wouldn't recommend though.
Every motorcyclist should ride off road. I raced open class motocross in the 1980's. I then went on to drift everything from 400cc to superbikes in the wet and dry.
With my Gsxr600 A car of girls hollered at me at a red light once and while in the turn lane i got the green arrow. My confidence sprung. as soon as i got around the corner far enough to power wheelie (i thought) i gunned the throttle. instead of a wheelie the bike did a sweet power drift. That was even cooler imo. i wasn't ready nor have i never done that before or since but hell was it a good lesson/experience i never forgot. Grip is always there, it just depends on where it wants to go i suppose. those were cold tires.
The smoother you are on the controls the more you'll feel the grip and other things the bike is telling you. If you're abrupt on the controls, you'll mask most of what the bikes trying to say.
After crashing the first time because of this. Literally every time I start feeling anxious in a turn now, I just tell myself “trust the bike and you’ll be fine”
I dont like wet track because it's so unpredictable. It could stick like glue or slip very easily. Hitting the track little hard with cold tyres is much more predictable. You can feel how it's little restless and how the grip comes as the tyres warm up.
I’ve got the Michelin road 6 front and back… they don’t feel too compromised on hot days on the street compared to more grippy tires but I can also ride them in the rain with confidence, about 1/4 “ chicken strips on both, never hit the track with them though
i ride an old lousy cruiser, max i can go is scrape my pegs. But overtime with wear and tear, i developed that fear to lean even more because i could feel that my rear tires could slip any moment and end up low siding.
Ah yes Times when I ride in trails with lots of slippery surfaces, after I slide way to much, I gain so much confidence in my tires when I go back on the pavement. Can't imagine if I did dirt roads lol
Most guys doing track days are looking to push their personal limits BUT at the same time the goal is to take both you and your bike home in the same physical shape you arrived at the track in that morning. Remember most people still have a job they need to go to on Monday and bills that continue to need being paid. Also repairing a crashed bike can get pretty spendy on its own. There is enough risk when pushing the envelope in a controlled environment on a closed track but doing the same on public roads is just plain stupid really. Those that are really fast are usually the ones that also have enough common sense to see and understand the risk with the difference in the amount of runoff distance before hitting something solid on a track versus just how close those guardrails and/or trees are on most curvy mountain roads. You have a death wish push your luck long enough on public roads and your wish may just come true!
Wish I could chalk up my experience of grip to track days or MX. I learned to love the lack of traction in the (Swedish) winter of 22/23. Because of a case of stubbornness and neccesity I commuted the full winter - barring when it got below -10, there had been a freeze-thaw-freeze cycle or when a wet snowstorm was coming. 50/50 tires on a FE450 - commonly known as the most forgiving of enduro bikes - and the first days was horrible. And in a bit I get the feel for clutch and throttle - soft hands. Four months later I was AIMING for the slippery spots, going sideways as far as possible was now a goal. A track bike would be fun, but for now whipping up gravel roads suits me just fine.
recently a rider just in front of me went down in turn....he is a great rider and did nothing wrong. Turned out a vehicle ahead of him was sloshing FUEL on the road....he could not avoid it as he was passing the vehicle but luckily I was enough behind to spot the wet spot and avoid or I would have low sided into the weeds with him
Went on a brisk group ride yesterday. Even with fresh Road 6 tyres on my Tiger 800, I struggled to keep up with a very experienced elderly rider on his well-sorted DR650 on full knobbies..😅
when you reach a point where you intentionally lose grip to make the bike do something you want, you'll reach a comfort level. However I wouldn't use grip as a learning tool for lean angle. ime, lean angle in RR is best learned on its own and on mini moto's, ysr's, not on the dirt. your body position is totally different. On a RR bike with your knee on the ground is way different to dragging your bars in a rut or cranked over in a berm in mx or when grinding your footpeg backing it.
One thing is modern bikes have a ton of ground clearance. It's hard for newer riders to know 'where they are' lean wise. Those early 80's bikes gave TONS of feedback. They would drag pegs, centerstands, and the tires were very predictable. It seems like modern bikes are far more capable, but don't have as much feedback and are not so forgiving at thier limits.
Great video!!! I recommend the book: the upper half of the motorcycle by Bernt Spiegel, very helpful for street and track riding and understanding one self. If your parents did not put you on a mini bike with 4 years, it helps getting better 😊
Idk why im watching this i ride a cruiser lol. Nah but these are solid skills that i applied from tracking my car just slightly different since its a bike. Waiting on a rainy so i drive around my back streets for whenever im stuck in rain
On normal roads you can always try feeling the grip going straight and doing break checks. You feel the grip gone when the abs starts pulsing…. Be cautious if you dont have ABS
Having ridden my old srad 750 on race tyres in the dry at the very edge of grip (rounding off the edge of the tyre and feeling the bike squirrelling around at the very edge of dry grip on long open bends) and same race tyres in the wet simply insta letting go in a straight line under light acceleration (because you shouldn't use cold race tyres in the wet). And having had my bike 2 wheel slide on the road in the wet on cold road tyres, I thought I was 100% comfortable finding the edge of grip. Then I changed bike, and lost all trust in my tyres for no reason I can figure. Maybe it's the suspension I thought... roll through many hours of suspension tweaking and upgrades... Maybe it's just this bike... roll through a series of replacing bikes, hoping to get that trust back. Maybe I'm just getting older and need to brute force my way through then the lean angle fear... roll through hours upon hours of dragging knees in empty carparks. I never ever did get the absolute trust back that I had in my early 20s on that 1999 750cc fuel injected srad... no matter what the bike, tyre or suspension setup. I don't know if I just 'lost it' or if it was the bike, or what... but I could take that thing to the absolute limit of both front and rears, fearlessly. Because I knew exactly where the limit was, and how it would react when I went past it. Not been able to get anywhere near that on any bike since... not even close 😢
One of the biggest barriers is lack of environments for exploring grip limits with a high rate of repetition at higher speeds. Race tracks for example might have a dozen corners but they have straights that spread those corners out and quite a lot of variation in each corners design. The degree of repetition is too small. A track that has fewer corners and shorter or effectively no straights allows for more repetition and thus more exploration of what is achievable but who's going to build a track like that? The smaller tracks that do exist tend to have tighter corners (e.g. karts and supermoto) to maintain the corner count and while that means you can explore lower speed tight corner grip it rules out learning high speed corner grip. Getting a feel for grip levels on a 200kph corner is tricky when there aren't that many 200kph corners in quick succession for you to practice on.
Loosing the grip is not an issue. Dropping the bike and repair costs are. In a car, if you get a slide, you can correct it. On the bike - it's often results in a crash. Dirt bike is probably a way. And lowering the speed on the public roads as well. Keep your knee dragging and stunting to the track or empty parking lots.
The primary issue is the type of tire and tire pressure. Dirt riding sort of helps develop feel but really doesn't translate well in your grip sensitivity as it mores helps.you develop slide control and capturing a loose bike. All that said ive seen guys on Goldwings and RG-1100s blow away sportbikes in the rain on the street. Just play it safe and get good tires or at the very least run proper low psi 30F 29R and compliwent suspension.
I learned not to use Bridgestone. The Michelin Pilot 4’s were my favourite tyre. They lost me when they changed to the “Road series.” Now I will only use Rosso Diablo IV’s.
I had this issue riding road and track. Never trusted my tires. On the road in the UK you also have stones/gravel in the middle of the road in varying amounts on most of the roads bikers typically enjoy riding on, leading to more fear of lack of grip. As much as i loved having a bike it was always a stressful experience.
It's not like I don't trust my tire. I just don't trust the roads in my place 😂
That is the most sane answer I've seen in a while. All these videos about lean angle, trust your tyres and so on, mean nothing, if there is suddenly a bunsh of muddy dirt mid corner.
But as you learn the local roads, you can discover when to push and when to hold back, and also when you held back but didn't have to. It's interesting how a well balanced bike can hold a line where you thought it would be thrown off. A favorite stretch for me is a frost heaved cracked road that winds through forest - I savor seeing what I can do - where I can improve from the last run. Of course the factors that limit road speed are always in play.
Spoken like someone who actually rides. I'm in Australia Victoria and every pucker up moment I've ever had was due to road conditions or pot holes big enough to be buried in 😂. One time I swear I got a foot and a half in the air and somehow didn't wreck (dirt bikes started on helped)
@@anxiousappliancemy moments have come when exploring and near the mountains with either debris or kangaroos wombats rabbits etc.
@@jamesgeorgevellavella1961 For sure - all part of the challenge. Rode through a herd of deer one night - fortunately they were walking parallel to the road and stayed that way. LOL
I almost lost grip while riding back from work, the adrenaline you get from the reaction of correcting the bike in split second is addictive
Did you get new underwear ?
The street isn't where I want to get that type of fix. I want that fix on the track.
@@Paul-899cc new seat too
@David-bf6pl agreed, and we should still learn the corrective skill in case of oil, sand, roadkill, etc. that would cause skids on the road.
Had speed wobbles once. Shat my undies 😂
I trust my tyres, but I do not trust public road surfaces...Oil, sand, rocks...
Only correct point of view IMO. Tyres got sooo much better the last 10-15 years, but debris, sand, oil and mud mit corner all stayed the same.
I went to a track day. At the end of the day I said "okay I'll lean over more now that I got a good session in", and then I slid out and my day was over. It's a real concern not just a "fear".
Incremental improvement and correct body posture are key
@@Bow-to-the-absurd Easy to say. Not easy to implement.
I think this more applies to people like me who tear it up pretty good for your average sports bike rider, but can’t get a knee down and can’t use the lettering portion of the tires
@@tkschrome487sounds like me, but tbh, you shouldn’t be getting your knee down on public roads. Too many unknowns and no one will have any sympathy for you if you come off getting your knee down on a roundabout.
@@milesa-c3865 I tell people the same thing. Nobody cares how cool you are more than you do. I do however want to get a knee down even if it’s over exaggerated just for fun
In 1971, following and catching up to a friend on a twisty L.A. area canyon road on my 325 Honda, I entered a left curve near center line and finished close to road edge. In the process, experienced a curious floating sensation. Realized at exit that I had just done an unintentional two-wheel drift without losing essential traction and dumping myself in the road. WHEW! Scared myself good and slowed up. Have never again ridden so aggressively.
You could probably afford to push a little more, as tires have come a long way since ‘71.. although your body and mine alike are going the opposite direction.. so maybe just stay right where you are. Haha
@@mcgo3595 That is exactly my issue - bikes and tires keep getting better but no matter how hard I work, my body keeps getting older and more cranky. 😂
Ahhh, those wonderful sunny days with super sticky tires cornering like a boss, right until that loose gravel spilled by a truck appears mid-corner. That's why I'm not dragging my knee on the streets.
Also it looks goofy AF to drag your knee on a public road. Such a low testosterone move to do.
Getting experience riding offroad helps massively. I rode trials and enduro for 8 years and it made me a better rider- especially when it comes to feel for grip.
This channel is a masterpiece! Great work guys! 🏁🥇
I wrongly started on a gsxr600, and I was always afraid to push the bike, that I will lowside on every corner and never leaned enough. What I did after a second crash and a totaled motorcycle? I bought a smaller one, a CBR250r. I leard to lean and drag footpegs, leaned to the limit and touch my left hand on the ground. I gained confidence, learned to sit properly on the bike and so much else!
Well explained. A huge thing that helped me was learning that the tyres don’t just provide static friction, but also sliding friction. So if the tyres do slide, it’s not as if all grip is suddenly gone.
Riding in the rain is a great way to test grip, even riding over the occasional white line or manhole cover on the road for some variety of experience.
It's great fun sometimes. Because lean angles are more modest in the rain, you can comfortably get the rear spinning and moving around without things getting out of control.
I grew up on dirt bikes and culminated in me earning an AMA Expert license in 125cc Motocross as a Jr. in H.S. Along the way I also competed in Trials and Flat track and TT. Learning to control a bike at extremely low speeds over obstacles as in Trials and then learning to slide at high speed on dirt as in Flat track and TT gave me the skills that the first time I rode a high performance street bike I very quickly learned that they could be driven at loss of traction time just like a dirt bike. For riders with less experience I do agree riding in the rain gives you a much milder slope of the loss of traction envelope. Another thing I think is helpful is learn to slide your bike into corners just using the back brake. When you feel comfortable sliding it at different angles and for different distances I think it helps calibrate your brain to what it feels like at loss of traction time. Really until you get compfortable sliding your bike both with the rear brake and with the throttle, you'll never be a fast skilled rider.
I'm a bit jealous, I grew up on bikes too but didn't get my first real dirt bike until I was 13. Ttr125 LE. I always wanted to compete but family didn't have the money or time.
This is my number one obstacle.
Ride in the rain all the time.
Need dirtbike school.
My guy, get Dunlop Mutant tires. They’re absolutely incredible in the rain. I ride a liter bike and have tried all the Michelin Road series and also the continental version, I think the road 4s? And NOTHING beats the mutants in the rain. I also push them hard on dry pavements, and have been well over 110mph with standing water on the freeway and absolutely planted. Plus they look awesome and can handle some dirt
@@BikingVikingHH I will definitely look into them..
Running Angels on my 390 Duke, VFR came with Michelin Radials. Ride all year..
I was looking at Pilots..
@nonyabusiness4151 pilot power 2ct is one of my favorite tires. My number one favorite tire is the shinko stealth. They are a single compound tire but after warm up it's the stinkiest tire I've ever ridden. I run them on my r1's
@@Apollo-Computers They look good, but I'm looking for an all around street tire. Lots of rain and some winter. Duke 390 and VFR-800. Plus I'm broke.
Modern tires are very good in the rain. Avoid road marks and look for oil in the run off ( or wait about 15 minutes after the rain starts or think and/or think about when the last rain was) and it's all good. Of course pull back a little and maybe run in a higher gear just in case. But a good tire won't slide just because of water.
love the way you talk about how we already have the skills to do it, really helps boost the confidence, great video
You need knowledge - not confidence. Fear saves your life. You never want to ride at the limit. You will encounter potholes, oil, sand, gravel and other vehicles on the road - even in turns. I've been riding motorcycles since 1978.
Yeah still relavant for track days though
The lack of confidence comes from a lack of knowledge. He's educating people
I'd put it like that: Riding a corner on the limits of traction should never be your A-plan on the road, but it sure helps if the ability to do so is available as a B-plan... exactly because there might be unforeseen obtacles, which might require you to suddenly ride a very dfferentcorner than you thought you needed to take.
100% agree that caution on the road will save your life. There are so many potential hazards you could encounter & one you didn’t mention is animal collisions. I too have been riding since 1977 & had my share of accidents in the first few years but I’ve been lucky & learnt from experience.
Track riding is a whole different situation where you can more safely push it to the limit.
"You need knowledge, not confidence."
...Why not both?
....
*Mexican music plays.
The VERY imporant thing is quality of the grip. Well polished asphalt is not the same as brand new.
I ride year round in the northern USA. The point you made about different conditions giving you a perspective for grip was very well made. What you learn in the real world is that, while cold and rain are certainly not conducive to good traction, it still takes a lot to to overwhelm the tires and suspension of modern motorcycles. The key is to adjust your lines and inputs so that they are appropriate for the conditions.
I've been developing as a rider for almost 10 years now these videos help a lot
Never had a lowside before thankfully (knock on wood). Have been in the cusp of a few though in rainy conditions, again, thankfully my Michelin Road Classics communicated their (near) loss of grip impeccably well each and every time both front and rear.
But as a near daily motorcycle rider, I have come to realise there are only a few situations where I can really put my shoes/pegs to the ground. As road debris, road surface and corner angle/radius all are a major factor. Also knowledge of your route plays a major role, but that is person specific, as I know I am a slow/carefull learner.
I did nearly have a highside though, but that was my own fault. I wanted to leave a roundabout full blast but failed to see the sand that was piled up centimeters thick for over 10 meters long right in the middle of the exit lane. Not sure how I caught the bike, I was simply glad I was laying like superman on top of my motorcycle while she was still upright, instead of being like a patrick starfish on the ground😅
In hindsight I definitely should have expected the sand (in any severity) to be there as right next to it there is a massive sand depot and trucks come and go rather frequently.😅
Ride safe✌️
Being first and foremost a motocross guy. My issue with tire feel is that comparatively on the asphalt everything feels like perfect grip
Yes
I rode Dunlop slick rear that was *shaved* on both sides in the power/drive part of the tire, and didn't run warmers. I was *very* careful and had a delicate throttle hand, but still rode fast.
You could *feel* that the tires weren't there, especially when cold. It did feel like walking on ice. I rode them way longer than I thought I should have, until I had a lil slide that was bigger than I wanted. Thennn I changed the tire.
For me that was a good exercise in both throttle control and learning grip. On a 200 rear I still had a LOT of edge grip despite having no drive grip.
What was a game changer for me was buying Michelin Road 6 tires. NOT because of the way they felt, but rather their price and reputation. I used to buy cheaper summer tires and because their narrow temperature window for grip, I’d often feel then slip when cold, which made me doubt them at all times. I then bought the Road 6s and told myself “these are the best and my wallet knows it, TRUST them”, and so I started exploring their limits. Yes they have a wider temp range, but even on a hot day where theoretically the summer tires would perform better, I TRUSTED them more, and rode more confident. Now I only run Dunlop Mutant tires which have less (dry) grip than anything I’ve ran before because of their tread pattern, but I know what I and a tire can do, and run them harder than anything previous. Also because of the play the tread blocks have, they’re a little loose without slipping, and you can really get used to the feeling of grip at the limit, and best of all, get a little slip angle when powering out of a corner… I’m basically Tokyo Drifting everywhere now 😂🙄😬
I was planning to do the same with my bike and you've convinced me lol.
@@joatmon7621 do it!
I had 2 back to back track days scheduled and the second day it rained. I went out on the first session and low sided but while it was unfortunate and I broke some parts, the feeling of losing grip on my ninja 400 was something I never really experienced and it was an invaluable lesson.
But here lies the biggest problem. To know your limit, you have to cross it. In our case as riders that means, you have a good chance of crashing your bike. Not even talking about injuries, but not everybody shits dollar bills and can afford to crash and fix his bike. Also, crashing on public roads has a way better chance of demilishing your whole bike, as it hits different obstacles.
Great video and really helpful. This past July i ran 2 track days on Bridgestone S23's with a GSXR1000. Tons and tons for grip from those tires. I can't say enough good things about them. Never once felt like i was losing grip. 28PSI Rear an 30 PSI Front btw.
Good to know I have a set I just bought looking foward to installing them now
Hot pressures or cold ?
Take your pressure right after you finish your session. You should be 32 psi front and 31/32 psi rear HOT. You'll need to adjust your pressure ALL DAY after each session to keep those numbers in the right window. Don't be lazy! Those tires are very good to start with. Soon you'll need better though. When you arrive at the track you can start with 30 psi front and 25/27 rear COLD. Have fun!
I know you mean well, and I know most riders won't need slicks to beat their personal best but saying you never felt they lacked grip doesn't mean anything at all if we don't know how fast of a rider you are. I see people on trackdays not able to get their knee down on their Panigale V4, doing 30 seconds slower laptimes and complaining their Bridgestone Rs11's lack grip. And I see geezers on clapped out zx9r's running in A group on old Diablo Rosso Corsa's. A TH-cam comment on how well Brand X, model Y tyres grip is useless people. Just saying😂
Worst tiers I ever had, at least rear (MT10SP, road only, no track). Front never failed but I never pushed it because of the rear. Rear slid often, in all conditions, on perfect asphalt, with various tire pressure, even with a passenger. Totally lost trust in the ability of the bike to grip even in sight lean. After a season I replaced them with Michelin Road 6 and the bike never slipped again.
I've just put Battlax S23's on my ZX-6R and they are amazing.....
Have them on my cbr600 and love them
I broke my fear by leaning until the crash bar hit the ground and I low sided. I have had no doubt I can lean the shit out of it on dry ground. I have also done a bunch of circles gradually increasing lean in a dirty parking lot where trucks are unloaded with a lot of gravel patches. I could feel the wheel slide out just a little at speeds I would take a turn at. Did the same after it rained. Big circle of gradually increasing lean. Did a few hard stops too.
The one constant through all of my grip experiences was something you didn't mention, the tire traction limit slip indicators. I don't have electronics and creep up to it by messing with pressure, line, lean, hang, trail, markers, and speed lap by lap. It's really fun feeling those micro slips and approaching the limit of the permutation I'm doing at the time. I've never used TCS but gotta imagine that expecting the electronics to handle your inputs has got to make feeling that harder.
My bike of choice is a Kawasaki ZX-14R. Best thing I ever did to..learn about grip was commute daily to work in Northern California year round for 3 years. Nothing like a damp mountain road with pine needles strewn all over it to..teach about grip, throttle control and concentration. Riding up and down those roads with a string of cars/trucks behind, did wonders for my perceptions of grip, appreciation for the very tall 1st gear (yes you can..ride in 1st gear on a very steep..downhill road) and respect for both Metezler tires, Kawasaki R&D and 200 rwhp.
I swaped my Battle Axe sport touring tyres for Perelli Super Corsa Diablo's, now my FireBlade sticks to the road like glue, they warm up really quick and you can really get the power on at high lean angles 👍
I learned traction control as a?teen on the track. My father had me ride one of his old junker bikes past the traction limit until I went down at a safe sub 100km/h speed. After about a dozen times, I began to get a good feel for the edge.
Yeah taht sounds healthy . . . and sane.
Well simply... a racer drops a bike and they go get on another one. A average joe drops a bike and hes at risk of being out thousands of dollars and potentially losing their employment if theyre injured. So yeah, the fear is reasonable.
Thanks for a very educational video! About to head on my second track day tomorrow and it was good to watch this as I almost high sided on my last outing on my first track day.
Great video. I just started track days last fall. Started on Perelli tires. Wasn't feeling comfortable in the turns. Some slippage. Put on a set of Dunlap Q5 tires. Love them. Gained tons of confidence leaning to toes and knees dragging. After 4 track days. I got moved up to intermediate. Much better class and pace. Having a blast riding on a real track.
Gotta watch out for those Chinese "Perelli" tires. Though I'm not sure "Dunlaps" are much better.
@@keim3548 Yes, the rosso II are made in china. The Dunlaps are clearly marked as made in the USA. With American flag. A clear difference on the track. I will stick with the Q5 for now. Very comfortable and confident in them. Best tire I have run in 40 years of riding.
@@markb-axtonmx whoosh
this is where I'm at in my riding right now. i want to 'trust' my tires, i know they're good and i know i can get way lower but every time i lean past my 'usual' or 'comfort' level i have it in my head that it's gonna instantly wash out and low side! only on like the 5th month of riding so i guess i have plenty of time. no rush here lol. 05 Honda CBR600rr/ Michelin Pilot Power 2CT's front n rear.
I dropped 2.5 seconds off my PB in 3 sessions by riding a SC1 until it was completely dead. I couldn’t go around a left hand turn without the rear wiggling even at slow speeds with no gas. Threw on a fresh SC1 and immediately felt the huge difference. It taught me so much.
This was hands down the best advise I received back in the day from my Dad.
It's Funny your wear a CBR 900 T-Shirt in this video... They had a 16.5 or something front wheel, caused problems I recall. Brilliant symbolism!!
16 inch up front and 17 at the rear, which was the norm back in the day.
MotoGP bikes of that era were on 16½ inch wheels back then.
You're back to posting!
Thank you!
You're one of my favorite youtubers on these topics.
You're so right about learning. I had two mates did the 125cc to DAS to 600 together. Bloke1 took hints, learnt from the quick and safe ( ie don't crash) boys. Bloke 2 didn't. Reckoned he knew all he needed. Crashed every bike he ever had in some very odd accidents. Yes he survived. ( he once flipped an R1 and walked away ! )
Great video, well explained and easy to follow. It sums up my attitude to learning to trust ability of bikes
Riding in the rain, weaving through rush hour traffic in Cardiff, Wales taught me a lot about grip, where to push it and where not to. This translated to experience on track days. I was flabbergasted just how much grip Michelin Pilot slicks have. My gixxer could corner much faster than I could ask of it
Great video! I’m no Rossi but riding in the rain taught me ALOT about riding and oh sh!t situations
riding on even slightly gravelly lanes or in the wet gives me a sense of foreboding of the worst that might happen so i tend to keep as upright as i can, which means slowing right down on bends, and i know at times it's way slower than i can/should (probably) do, but i know it's a confidence thing, and i don't feel like i want to explore the limits to find out, even though i have well reviewed & good condition michelin road 5 tyres, the odd time i've felt a bit of lost grip it really shits me up lol, so i stay well below the limit if possible. probably some of it stems from a few lower speed spills when i hit some wet leaves and later some mud, the feeling of helplessness as it instantly went down aint something i want to risk again. thanks for the vid & i'll re-watch to try improve but it's a tough one, especially as i'm in my sixties and things take longer to heal these days !!. GL
You are so right we are of the same age and I feel exactly the same I ride a busa with road 6 tyres and some slow right down when maybe should not. Everyone keep right side up.
There’s nothing wrong with being cautious in slippery conditions & you’ll live longer.
This is very very useful information.Great video brother.
right aggressively over aggressively in a controlled area but do it slowly try to make the bike slide and skid and wash out the front wheel while you’re going slow so you know what point through familiarizing yourself through seat of the pants muscle memory, that threshold will be
Michelin Street Pilot R tires are amazing for general road use as well as going fast in the twisties, they are one of the most well balanced tires I've ridden on for all road conditions - even dirt back roads.
I remember the first time (on track) I went from a top quality road tyre to slicks... My g*d the difference was incredible - especially the side grip.
The bike just dropped so fast onto the side and then stuck like glue!
I practice learning to read grip by taking my honda monkey out in a parking lot during heavy snow. The most useful thing I learned was how it feels when the front slides. It happened over and over but no fear a walking speed on a bike I can just about lift completely off the ground.
Thanks for the topic a great explanation. I'm heading out for a couple track days tomorrow, running Diablo Rosso IVs on my RS660. I'm a new rider (started 10 months ago) but I rode all winter on mostly wet roads and I've done six track days since the weather got better, one of them in pooring rain. I'm still insecure about where full lean is with my tires in the dry. I still have tiny chicken-strips but my body position is pretty good so I've been reducing lean quite a bit. I think I have felt "pushing the front" in few corners but I'm not sure. One thing that happened in a hairpin was that I overdid my body position with a little too much weight for the speed and turn radius - it felt like I was falling but the steering/tire geometry saved me by automatically turning into the fall - and surprise, the tires held. My guess is that I have a bit more lean at my disposal. Anyone running the same tires willing to share their experience?
More awesome content yet again from you Dan. Funny enough I did MX back in the day so have always been comfortable with my road bikes losing it on the back. Last week at Brands on the GP circuit trackday it rained after lunch and guess what, I was one of the few riders out on track and on Michelin Power Cup 2s on a 201bhp RSV4-RF. I do think the MX thing among other things gives you that little bit more help with understanding the fine line between grip and no grip, if you know what I mean. Thank you as always for you massive contribution to us followers Sir👍🏻
It's good to see you back 😁 these vids are getting better and better. Great advice and cool shirt 👍🏻
Maybe two more possibilities:
- i bought myself a small cheap motor bike equipped with kind of a stuntcage to test the limits without the fear of destroying my "good Bikes".
- i visited a maximum lean angle training session with a provided bike, where you can go the limits without failing.
My provdided bike was an old SV650 with normal street tires, and when you experience, what is possible with this setup, you get more trust in your own bike-tyre-setup 🙂
The environment is the greatest trainer for your skills! The second best is your goals and then motivation together. I know that very well living here in finland, half the year we have wet, snow and ice! You learn how to ride bike on ice and snow when you are kid, then moto and cars. This is the reason why we have some great drivers in all motor sport! Next winter I will train again on ice with my supermoto bike with special studs on tires. It is very fun and you can get different challenges to your training plan. If you do all the same, there will be no gain! Wellcome to train here, you can meet Mika Kallio and many good riders on ice with studs!
Amazing video...
Ride on a 300cc with track tires are an amazing confidence lesson...
Whan you see what people are doing... slowly you get the courage to step by step... achive inveedible lean angles...
Furthermore.. nothing taste sweeter than pass a 4 cylinder.bike.. with a 300cc on a track...
Brilliant...as always. Thank you very much!
My bike career is 1.5 seasons. I bought an ADV with knobbies but tyre center was far more worn out than sides, still enough thread on them but almost perfect square. Since I do not care for offroad, changed to 80/20 street orientated metzelers. To my surprise, new street tires performs far better on loose gravel than semi old, flat knobbies, my speed increased by ~20 mph and I feel far more confident. I have almost no experience but can say for sure, I better go gravel on new street tires than worn down knobbies. No idea how it works, but backside doesn't swirl around anymore even on tyres that are not made for gravel.
Really great video and has really awakened my awareness to my grip senses already developed.
A lot of people ride out of necessity and not from a place of personal responsibility, their motorcycles, and their driving skills are of little concern to these riders, that's why there are so many deaths . . . to be a great rider is easy! It only takes a little practice to be prepared when it matters most I'm not sure about overseas, but, if you're in the states, seek out your nearest MSF rider course and you will learn exactly what you need to be an excellent rider!
1. buy a cheap bike
2. buy the right gear
3. track day and learning safely
This
Loose the dual sport tires.. Unstable at Any Lean..
It’s simple, the more money you have, the more confident you have😢
Absolutely. I will gladly learn the limit with your bike on a track in full gear. I am not going to try it with mine.
Yep I second this
True. I was going all out on the rider course's provided training bike, 250cc.
After I bought my vulcan s650, I suddenly get too sacred. Putting crash/engine guards has helped but I still hesitate to lean as much as i think the bike can actually handle
Totally agree! I don't want to find the limit because I can't afford to fix my bike!
Sorry to disagree. On track I see lots of riders with expensive equipment, that dont use the grip available because they are not confident enough.
some schools put you on a truly anemic
Have tires worth trusting. Profile, pressure, temperature and running them in is everything.
1º: Learn a notorious amount of theory(Body positioning/How to brake/Use of throttle).....2º: Judge the situation/enviroment based on your current knowledge.....3º: Apply the theory pusshing gradualy more to the limits each "session".....As time goes by the rider will become better and safer at it.
Excellent video. My learning to ride MSF course decades ago was a rain or shine thing. It never occurred to me that it would downpour. The first day was beautiful and in the classroom. The second day was ride day, and the sky opened up with so much rain I swear I saw Noah's Ark. Made me a much better rider though, as I never developed a fear of riding in the rain like a lot of riders I knew over the years.
The fact that the grip limit can be exceeded sometimes without any signs has changed my riding style dramatically. Only time and experience is changing that for me.
Moto gp riders put a knee down to reduce lean angle at high speeds. The knee acts as a tripod for the 2 wheels to keep the bike from sliding out at max lean angle. The goal is to reduce lean angle. Not increase it. You can accelerate quicker when the bike is upright or has less lean.
I rode for years in Vancouver BC ,all year around. It was so refreshing not to see other riders waving back at me like some sort of summer toy hobbyist enthusiast fraternity. The price, nine months of rain and cold. I've learned to feel the bike and the feedback it gave me in those cold rainy winter days. I wouldn't recommend though.
Every motorcyclist should ride off road. I raced open class motocross in the 1980's. I then went on to drift everything from 400cc to superbikes in the wet and dry.
With my Gsxr600 A car of girls hollered at me at a red light once and while in the turn lane i got the green arrow. My confidence sprung. as soon as i got around the corner far enough to power wheelie (i thought) i gunned the throttle. instead of a wheelie the bike did a sweet power drift. That was even cooler imo. i wasn't ready nor have i never done that before or since but hell was it a good lesson/experience i never forgot. Grip is always there, it just depends on where it wants to go i suppose. those were cold tires.
The smoother you are on the controls the more you'll feel the grip and other things the bike is telling you. If you're abrupt on the controls, you'll mask most of what the bikes trying to say.
After crashing the first time because of this. Literally every time I start feeling anxious in a turn now, I just tell myself “trust the bike and you’ll be fine”
I dont like wet track because it's so unpredictable. It could stick like glue or slip very easily. Hitting the track little hard with cold tyres is much more predictable. You can feel how it's little restless and how the grip comes as the tyres warm up.
I’ve got the Michelin road 6 front and back… they don’t feel too compromised on hot days on the street compared to more grippy tires but I can also ride them in the rain with confidence, about 1/4 “ chicken strips on both, never hit the track with them though
The most fun feeling is kicking out sideways in the rain at 60mph
Your t-shirt is sick! Where can I get one like this?
True words...
Thanks my brother
i ride an old lousy cruiser, max i can go is scrape my pegs. But overtime with wear and tear, i developed that fear to lean even more because i could feel that my rear tires could slip any moment and end up low siding.
You deserve a million subs
Oh how I wish utube had been around in the 70’s …it’s like the matrix lol , you just ask it’s all here ❤😂🎉
Ah yes
Times when I ride in trails with lots of slippery surfaces, after I slide way to much, I gain so much confidence in my tires when I go back on the pavement. Can't imagine if I did dirt roads lol
Most guys doing track days are looking to push their personal limits BUT at the same time the goal is to take both you and your bike home in the same physical shape you arrived at the track in that morning.
Remember most people still have a job they need to go to on Monday and bills that continue to need being paid.
Also repairing a crashed bike can get pretty spendy on its own.
There is enough risk when pushing the envelope in a controlled environment on a closed track but doing the same on public roads is just plain stupid really.
Those that are really fast are usually the ones that also have enough common sense to see and understand the risk with the difference in the amount of runoff distance before hitting something solid on a track versus just how close those guardrails and/or trees are on most curvy mountain roads.
You have a death wish push your luck long enough on public roads and your wish may just come true!
Wish I could chalk up my experience of grip to track days or MX. I learned to love the lack of traction in the (Swedish) winter of 22/23. Because of a case of stubbornness and neccesity I commuted the full winter - barring when it got below -10, there had been a freeze-thaw-freeze cycle or when a wet snowstorm was coming. 50/50 tires on a FE450 - commonly known as the most forgiving of enduro bikes - and the first days was horrible. And in a bit I get the feel for clutch and throttle - soft hands. Four months later I was AIMING for the slippery spots, going sideways as far as possible was now a goal. A track bike would be fun, but for now whipping up gravel roads suits me just fine.
recently a rider just in front of me went down in turn....he is a great rider and did nothing wrong. Turned out a vehicle ahead of him was sloshing FUEL on the road....he could not avoid it as he was passing the vehicle but luckily I was enough behind to spot the wet spot and avoid or I would have low sided into the weeds with him
Went on a brisk group ride yesterday. Even with fresh Road 6 tyres on my Tiger 800, I struggled to keep up with a very experienced elderly rider on his well-sorted DR650 on full knobbies..😅
when you reach a point where you intentionally lose grip to make the bike do something you want, you'll reach a comfort level.
However I wouldn't use grip as a learning tool for lean angle. ime, lean angle in RR is best learned on its own and on mini moto's, ysr's, not on the dirt. your body position is totally different. On a RR bike with your knee on the ground is way different to dragging your bars in a rut or cranked over in a berm in mx or when grinding your footpeg backing it.
One thing is modern bikes have a ton of ground clearance. It's hard for newer riders to know 'where they are' lean wise. Those early 80's bikes gave TONS of feedback. They would drag pegs, centerstands, and the tires were very predictable. It seems like modern bikes are far more capable, but don't have as much feedback and are not so forgiving at thier limits.
Fantastic information
Great video!!! I recommend the book: the upper half of the motorcycle by Bernt Spiegel, very helpful for street and track riding and understanding one self. If your parents did not put you on a mini bike with 4 years, it helps getting better 😊
Idk why im watching this i ride a cruiser lol. Nah but these are solid skills that i applied from tracking my car just slightly different since its a bike. Waiting on a rainy so i drive around my back streets for whenever im stuck in rain
I would like to see the fitness programs and techniques these riders use to get in, and stay in shape. I wonder what kind of core exercises they do.
The video I didn’t know I needed
On normal roads you can always try feeling the grip going straight and doing break checks. You feel the grip gone when the abs starts pulsing…. Be cautious if you dont have ABS
It's always a great help. Thank you
my tires are 14 years old. i aint trusting them bruh.
They must be so dry rotten.. change them asap dude
What brand?
What??? Clean the dust from your machine and sell it to someone who will use it
@@estebanod saved up some money. will do. yeehaw
@@tishanchamoditha9033 the tire? MRF
Having ridden my old srad 750 on race tyres in the dry at the very edge of grip (rounding off the edge of the tyre and feeling the bike squirrelling around at the very edge of dry grip on long open bends) and same race tyres in the wet simply insta letting go in a straight line under light acceleration (because you shouldn't use cold race tyres in the wet). And having had my bike 2 wheel slide on the road in the wet on cold road tyres, I thought I was 100% comfortable finding the edge of grip.
Then I changed bike, and lost all trust in my tyres for no reason I can figure.
Maybe it's the suspension I thought... roll through many hours of suspension tweaking and upgrades...
Maybe it's just this bike... roll through a series of replacing bikes, hoping to get that trust back.
Maybe I'm just getting older and need to brute force my way through then the lean angle fear... roll through hours upon hours of dragging knees in empty carparks.
I never ever did get the absolute trust back that I had in my early 20s on that 1999 750cc fuel injected srad... no matter what the bike, tyre or suspension setup. I don't know if I just 'lost it' or if it was the bike, or what... but I could take that thing to the absolute limit of both front and rears, fearlessly. Because I knew exactly where the limit was, and how it would react when I went past it.
Not been able to get anywhere near that on any bike since... not even close 😢
One of the biggest barriers is lack of environments for exploring grip limits with a high rate of repetition at higher speeds. Race tracks for example might have a dozen corners but they have straights that spread those corners out and quite a lot of variation in each corners design. The degree of repetition is too small.
A track that has fewer corners and shorter or effectively no straights allows for more repetition and thus more exploration of what is achievable but who's going to build a track like that?
The smaller tracks that do exist tend to have tighter corners (e.g. karts and supermoto) to maintain the corner count and while that means you can explore lower speed tight corner grip it rules out learning high speed corner grip.
Getting a feel for grip levels on a 200kph corner is tricky when there aren't that many 200kph corners in quick succession for you to practice on.
Loosing the grip is not an issue. Dropping the bike and repair costs are. In a car, if you get a slide, you can correct it. On the bike - it's often results in a crash. Dirt bike is probably a way. And lowering the speed on the public roads as well. Keep your knee dragging and stunting to the track or empty parking lots.
The primary issue is the type of tire and tire pressure.
Dirt riding sort of helps develop feel but really doesn't translate well in your grip sensitivity as it mores helps.you develop slide control and capturing a loose bike.
All that said ive seen guys on Goldwings and RG-1100s blow away sportbikes in the rain on the street. Just play it safe and get good tires or at the very least run proper low psi 30F 29R and compliwent suspension.
I learned not to use Bridgestone. The Michelin Pilot 4’s were my favourite tyre. They lost me when they changed to the “Road series.” Now I will only use Rosso Diablo IV’s.
I had this issue riding road and track. Never trusted my tires. On the road in the UK you also have stones/gravel in the middle of the road in varying amounts on most of the roads bikers typically enjoy riding on, leading to more fear of lack of grip. As much as i loved having a bike it was always a stressful experience.
Great video, love the shirt!
The number one thing I still need to find is the perfect psi for me. I rock michelen road 6.
Very good my friend well done