Should You Bi-Amp Your AV Receiver?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ม.ค. 2021
- You may have noticed a "bi-amp" option in the speaker configuration of the setup menu of your AV receiver. We discuss what bi-amping is and whether or not you should take advantage of this feature if your AV receiver offers it. Many factors including the robustness of the amplifier section, how many channels you are currently using and the type of speakers you are using will determine whether or not this feature is for you and your AV receiver.
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#biamp #biwire #amplifier - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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1:04 I can’t bi-amp, but I watched the whole video anyway. Take that!
You only have true wireless earbuds and you still watched this ? 😬
Hey Gene 😀
First of all, a very big Thank You for the great knowledge you put into this. I have watched a few of your videos by now and I must say you do a pretty good job 👍
My setup:
Marantz SR4003 drives the mid and high on my Yamaha NS-777 front speakers. I used the front pre-outs for my ROTEL BX956AX power amp in bridge mode, that drives the front woofers.
Subwoofer: Rockford Fosgate Punch III 10" 400w rms, peak 800w driven by ROTEL RB-980BX bridged to 1 * 360w rms 8 ohm.
Good day to everyone 🤗
Very helpful Gene! Thank you. I received support on this topic through the Website recently, Peng and others. I Bi-amped my high end top of the line Sony AVR to the mid and tweeter and My Anthem amp PVA4 to the bottom drivers of my Paradigm 95fs. I used the SPL meter and found my ear was .5 db off on my front right and surround left all other speakers except subs, were spot on same level. I used your SPL video to help me understand how to do that. Thanks again! My subs were much lower on the SPL meter. Way off there. I turned both subs up to same DB and have really felt I'm enjoying Atmos movies the way they should be along with my 2 channel music at the best it can sound. Many of us have limitations on speaker placement due to room size limitations to fit furniture, TV, audio equipment etc.. Practically no options. I appreciate the advice on the room correction. I just do the distance and level by ear instead with 80 crossover and small setting. As per above I was almost spot on to the SPL meter. Two channels left on my PVA 4 so I used 1 of those also combined with the Sony to bi-amp my Center channel cc590 which now also sounds clearer and more pronounced at low and high volumes. Another big advantage. I plan to study Peng's advice to compare the single amp hook up vs bi-amp just for fun and because I can't stop messing with everything. I am also now a subscriber!
Easily the best, most informative clip i have seen regarding this topic. Makes absolute sense of a grey area in audio. Thank you
I'm currently bi - amping a pair of Mission MX3s, using a Marantz SR5007 receiver in stereo mode. Sound is so much better than when i just used the main speaker outputs - fuller and tighter bass, richer midrange and more defined treble. Also, soundstage and imaging have improved.
I'm more than happy with the sound, and i don't think that i will go back to the old way.
Running a Marantz SR8012 and biamping the two front speakers, old Paradigm Monitor series, using the preamp mode and two Rotel rb960 BX amplifiers. Old stuff but sounds really nice. Lots of power.
After your old video on the subject I bi amped my Denon 4400 and B&W 683s2 setup for 2 channel listening. Worked great for years now. Used Blue jeans cables also:-)
Hi gene, I am using an integra home theater receiver and I am using the bi amp feature with paradigm speakers, and to me they sound clearer and more spacious whether it’s all in my head because that’s what I’m supposed to hear that remains to be seen but I’m happy with it
This hurt my heart. Have a tsr-700 that I'm currently using 2 channel with b&w 606s2 and got excited when I saw I could bi-amp. Thanks for crushing my soul.
Years ago I biamped klipsch RP-280F's with a tsr-700 and felt like the improvement was significant.
I find it very interesting that you came up with Bi-amp for Denon , Marantz & the rest of the market to follow. Thank you for sharing! Personally I perched a 2nd hand set of B&W dm603s3 floor speaker and paired it with a Yamaha rx-a710 7.2 channel. Not good so I saved for a Onkyo 9.2 channel bi-amped them and crossed at thx80hz with HSU research subs do most of the work.
I bought the Denon 3600H last year. Since it has 9 channels of amplification I’m running it bi-amped on my klipsch towers. My set up is basically 5.1 with height speakers in the front. I love streaming music to listen to in stereo. Bi-amping definitely improved the clarity of the highs. It actually improved the imaging too. I went back-and-forth a few times and it definitely seemed like something was missing when I wasn’t doing it. It’s tough to judge comments from people since you don’t know a persons given level of competence and understanding when addressing technical issues. I’m not saying I’m an expert but audio is a hobby of mine and I think this receiver makes enough of a difference when listening to music to be worthwhile.
This is exactly what I was looking for, I use my Denon for 70% music 30% movies/gaming. Have it hooked up to my RP 8000F,s. Because of your post, I’m going to give this a try. I know you had to change settings in amp assign, but did you change crossover settings?
@@woohunter1 when you have it set to being bi-amped it doesn’t treat the speaker as having separate crossovers for the lows and highs. There’s no new settings to fiddle with. Whatever settings you’re using now won’t need to be changed once you rewire it.
@@jdk_360 so your towers will receive 4 channels of full range above the 80 hz crossover (that’s what my high pass is set at) then the built in passive crossovers inside the speakers take over from there? Sounds easy enough. Gonna give this a try tomorrow. Thank-you for confirming this. Did you rerun Audyssey after doing this?
Perfectly said. I use an old Pioneer VSX-AX10 to bi-amp my speakers. But I do it externally by splitting the incoming signal with rca splitters and feeding the signal to the multi-channel analog input.
Yamaha DSP-A1 :) Rock solid Integrated Amp
I have played with it over the years. Both with car audio and home audio. I think there are two scenarios where bi amping can work. One is if you have very power hungry speakers and you drive them with separate amps. Two is if you are using active cross overs. I even went to the point where I built this complex set up with custom built speakers and drove each driver with a different car audio amp and active cross over. I used a very large custom sub woofer that played below 20 hertz. Then either 8 or 6.5 inch woofers, I don't remember which size I used each in their own custom tuned enclosure. Then another enclosure with the mid range and tweeters. It worked extremely well but I don't think it had that much to do with the amplifier power or that it was using multiple amps. I think it had more to do with the fact that each driver had an enclosure tuned to it and that I spent a lot of time matching levels and adjusting the cross over. I think if I was capable of designing, testing and building a really high quality passive cross over it would work just as well. And designing a decent cabinet to house all three drivers and work well isn't rocket science either. And then just use a powered sub woofer with a good built in cross over or an outboard one. When you boil it down using a modern powered sub woofer is really just bi amping your system. You are basically just using a different amp for low frequencies and using an active system to balance it out with your main speakers.
I have an older techniques that has bi amp, I don't remember the model number off hand. It was from maybe 1999 or 2000? Back when you had to use the outboard 5.1 decoder to go with it. And it weighs a ton compared to newer stuff. I tried bi amping it and it didn't make much of a difference to me. At least not when you are just hooking it up to normal towers with a built in average quality cross over. Its by far the best amp I have owned in terms of sound and build quality. I just outgrew it in features and what I needed for inputs. It doesn't have any hdmi switching or any of that. I am keeping it for when I have the room, time and money for a dedicated two channel system. Right now I use it to power a home made sub woofer since it has a built in sub amp in it.
I bi-amp my Martin Logan towers, with two Parasound stereo amplifiers. I love their performance via this configuration. Personally, I left AV receivers behind many years ago. I only use separates because I prefer that approach.
Great explained! Thank you!
I use the bi-amp feature to run 4 front floor speakers. It’s a 7.2 channel Yamaha and all the channels output the same watt. Changing the setting to bi-amp makes the receiver a 5.1 channel. But instead of running one channel to the upper of the duel post speakers I just power one set of speakers with one channel and another set of speakers with the other. Sounds great running it In 2.2. Channel.
I have a Marantz SR6014 and have noticed a benefit of bi-amping from the AVR. I also have a Parasound 855A 85WX5, I noticed a bump in power with this as well. Using Parasound for bi-amped towers and cnter and running surrounds off the AVR.
I stopped using receivers after it seems they all eventually break. I have gone to an extremely strange home theater system. I am using car amplifiers, DC power supplies to run the amplifiers. I swear these amps have so much headroom it's unreal. I will probably never go back to a standard receiver. Also, I use FLAC audio for music listening. My home system is very, detailed, revealing, and not to mention very loud and clear.
That is strange.. Assuming it is a "home theater" system, what do you use to decode the Dolby siginal? otherwise I would just see it as an overcomplicated 2 channel system. Which is fine, but are you also using something like a DSP-408 or similar? Tuning with REW? would open a whole new world in your case
what power source do u use for 12v car amp indoors
REMBER...ANY ON A CAR OR MOTOR HOME IS 12vdc
SOLAR PANALS AND CAR BATTERIES ARE 12vdc
THINK PEOPLE THINK..U DONT NEED YOUR 120 vac RECEPTICAS....BUT REMBER CHINA MAKES ALL THE SOLAR PANELS....THANKS TO BIDEN PREVENTING USA COMPANIES FROM VIOLATING EPA LAWS
GET EDUCATED OR LOOSE AMERICA
I've often wondered how car amps would work at home. They have so much more power! I'd love to see some pics!
Car amps don't need the massive transformers to adjust the huge voltage coming in from the wall. 12v is plenty for audio. There is so much wasted energy and heat with audio. A good capacitor that stores energy for a millisecond can be run off a C or D battery and power large speakers. Those $25 Bluetooth USB amplifiers are nothing more than car power boosters from the 1980s and run large tower speakers. It's all about heat management and efficiency. Keep the heat down and you keep the distention low.
Marantz SR8012. 5.4.2 With bia-amp front L/R- Jbl studio series.
Oh yea.. two couch base shakers ( on there own plate amp).
In a apt. Lol!...
Great share as always Gene!
Larry
Thanks for the impartial information. I passive bi-amp Martin Logan Vistas (electrostatic) with the Onkyo TX RZ50. I listen mostly to 2 channel music (plus sub). The MLs sound great! and perform well as fronts for a 5.1 system. The RZ50 has 120W/Channel at 8 Ohms. Seams to be enough power to drive all of the speakers.
Gene, I have the Denon AVR X8500HA with an external Monolith 5×200 watt power amp that I'm using to Bi-Amp my front SVS Ultra Towers and also use it for the center channel. I use the Denon to power the other 6 + 6 channels... it's a beast in this configuration and I love it!!!
Can you make a video on the placement of in-wall/ceiling mounted speaker and what you recommend at different price points?
Bi-amping Polk monitors with budget Onkyo AV receiver, definitely makes a difference.
I have the pioneer sc lx801. The bi-amp feature was noticable with my klipsch rp280f speakers at higher volumes. Better bass response and cleaner highs. Though l did buy a 7 channel power amp and no longer need to bi-amp as the amp puts out more than enough power per channel
Thanks for the video! 5.1.4 setup. Marantz sr7012. ATI 1502 amp for front LR. Polk LSIM speakers. No bi amp.
I have a DENON AVC-3800 from 1996, and this amplifier has Left Center Right in BI-Amp and still is very powerfull
100% agreed, but when cheap receiver came to the equation, really smear the real benefits of biamping. in my years of testing definitely you will get benefits, but you must be aware that using external amp / preamp processor is the way to go. Better dynamics, solid bass response, more high details, (not to be confuse with more power)i must agree that to be able to feel a huge difference you must gain over 50% of the volume. Cheers.
I have no idea if this will ever be read but I recently reorganized my setup. Running a PC as my main media source. HDMI to TV for 4k on 65" HDTV, and a second HDMI cable to my old Onkyo TX-SR605 5.1 Receiver. I've had it for over a decade and I've never had a single issue with it. I run two Energy Connoisseur CF-30 towers (more on those in a minute), an EW-100 subwoofer, and Energy centre channel. I started with the 5.1 Take Classic set and have upgraded over time. I'm not currently using rears or the surround.
That gave me an interesting opportunity however to use the surround outputs as bi-amps for the tower speakers. There is a label on the rear outputs, and a setting within the receiver setup menu itself to enable the feature. I've been running that for a while and it seems to perform well. However to my ear, it sounds almost the same as a passive bi-wire setup to the same speakers. There IS a noticeable difference to having it bi-wire/bi-amped vs not at all so I will continue to run it bi-amped until I upgrade the whole system.
Just fyi previously I was using TOSlink optical to run from the motherboard to the receiver, but had my eyes opened when I was reminded it only provides 2 channel PCM rather than the higher bandwidth HDMI.
Thanks.
Hi Gene, thank you for this video. Another great one! I am the lucky owner of the AVC110 from Denon. It's paired with 702S2's from B&W. Currently they are not bi-amped, but I am sure the amp has enough power to drive it. I already have the DB1D sub connected to the system as well. Would you recommend using the bi-amping functionality for this setup? I could, potentially also bi-amp my center speaker (HTM71 S2). Would you bi-amp a center speaker?
I bi-amped my RP-600Miis with my Denon AVR-X4700H to go along with my other 5 speakers and sub. Personally, I heard a difference when I realized the receiver had the bi-amp feature vs single-amping and tried it out. It uses 2 of the 4 height channels, neither of which I use, so I figured "what the heck." Like you said, it's a bigger effect when I'm only using the /R speakers listening to a CD, a vinyl album or streaming music.
Great info Gene, I was contemplating it, but I guess it's not worth it on book shelfs with a 6.5" woofer and 1" tweeter
Hi Gene I found the video informative, I have a Denon AVR X4300H Bi wired to Montitor Audio silver RS8. I did this thinking that the speakers would sound better driven Bi wired at lower volumes as you have two amps driving each speaker. I have done this from the start on getting the Denon and have been happy so far. Tell me is my thinking flawed or is it wishfull thinking.
Wow timely video. I have an old Onkyo TX-SR705. I just realized last week how the Bi-Amp feature works and was going to try it on some Klipsch RP-8000F. But after watching this, I think you are right. This AV receiver probably doesn't have the balls to make it worth while even though I do a lot of 2 channel listening.
I'd say try it. I have one. Beefy PSU open her up, see for yourself or take some measurements. I'm trying it on mine tomorrow. Will be removing the crossover on my speakers too just caps on the tweeter and mid
@@carswnova timely comment. I got new Klipsh RP-8000F arriving tomorrow lol
Thank you for your upload.
I haven't bi-amp'd anything, but when I originally built my media room, I bi-wire roughed in all the surrounds. Didn't make a damn bit of difference. But it did pay off when I went to an Atmos setup because I had all those wires running through the ceiling chase. Win for me.
Hi Gene ... excellent video about by-amp connection, actually the best I’ve ever seen. I’ve got a quick question for you: would you by-amp the marantz nr1608 with a pair o kiplisch rp600? Or it’s not the case. Your comments are more than welcome.
I have a Yamaha RX-A3050 and I was running Paradigm Studio v.3 100s, CC470, 20s for the back, and can't remember the model # for the sides. Plus a Servo 15a. Bought them all new. About 12 years ago I picked up an Onkyo TX-S876. Nice amp for back then. I needed an upgrade and wanted something for Atmos, so I picked up the Yamaha a few years ago, and took a pair of cheaper Cambridge Audio small speakers I had to mount on the ceiling for Atmos. For a long time I was thinking about using the Onkyo for bi-amping the 7 Paradigms, but a lot of people in the Facebook groups said I should just get external amps. Or at least an external amp for the front 2 or 3. I'm on permanent disability, so money is a lot tighter than what it used to be. I knew that A/V receivers generally rate their power in 2 channel mode, so I started thinking of using the Onkyo to just power the front two, and then that would give me 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos. It turns out, the Onkyo TX-S876 also supports Bridged-mode. Close to doubling the power for the fronts, especially if it is only powering 2 speakers. I bought two sets of Paradigm Cinema 3.0 speakers, using 4 of them for the ceiling, hooked up the Onkyo in Bridged mode, and now running 7.1.4, all Paradigm, and definitely have a noticeable 'punch' in the front speakers now.
I also just picked up a pair of 10G BlueJeansCables for my fronts after watching your vid about cables. I've always believed that cables don't make a difference, like most. I had/have 12G, pretty decent speaker wire that I put Banana plugs on the ends and always thought it sounded good. I hooked up the BlueJeansCables, and got ready for a serving of humble pie. Dire Straits, "Money for Nothing" in high res, such clarity. But it was Donna Summer, "I Feel Love", only took 3 seconds in for my jaw to drop. Expensive speaker cables, as you pointed out, not really worth it. But actual speaker cables to power your fronts when you have a decent system, then yea, it's worth it.
.
Video idea/request. Decoupling speakers from the floor. What are good options? Sound dampening foam, spikes, rubber spikes? Do those expensive ones make a difference over the cheap ones? IsoAccoustics are hundreds of dollars on Amazon, and then there are spikes+disks for $20.
watched this again since it appeared on my FB wall and didn't notice I watched it before.
I'm curious what you think about the difference between bi-amping and bridged mode for fronts would be. I know I mentioned in the FB groups that they mostly said bridged mode is best, but with my setup I kinda have a couple of options. Bi-amping or bridged.
I’m happy to hear some bi-amp discussion. I’m shopping for a new receiver and the ability to bi-amp it a must to drive my Polk towers. I’d appreciate some help with choosing my next receiver. Basically running 5.2 now and I want to add atmos. I’m thinking I need at least a 9.2 to bi-amp and then end up with 7.2
OK..THE BI AMP IS JUST A PUSH PULL AMP...MOST SPEAKERS JUST PUSH....
I SUGGEST GETTING 6 KRK ROCKET ACTIVE THAT HAVE 2 AMPS INSIDE...THEY ARE PUSH PULL....U WILL HEAR THE DIFFERENCE..
Dang, I have those same Paradigm speakers Gene showed in the video! (Premier 800f’s) and I’m using them with a Marantz SR7012 in just a 5.2 setup. Maybe I should do this whole Bi-amp thing! 🤔
what about bi amping my mains using a denon avr x4700h using klipsch r-28f mains? and also im using separate amps for al my speakers . will be using the denonx4700h as a preamp... thanks for the awesome videos !
The 805 d3 is a very respectable bookshelf. I passive bi amped them on an Yamaha a780 running a 4.2 configuration I saw benefits
I say try it. I have a Denon 3802 from 2002 and I have re-purposed it to my office with a set of Elac Uni-fi UB5's and a couple of 10" Klipsch subs I picked up off of CL. I run the UB5's from 80hz up with the internal Denon HP filter, and take the L/R line level out to the subs and use their LP filter. So now I have a kick-ass 2.2 system for very little money.
In the theater room I have a Yamaha 850 that is bi-amping my Tannoy Saturn 8's and it is a noticeable improvement at higher volumes. Again, try it and if it is not an improvement, it's easy enough to go back.
LOVED THE VIDEO, WHAT ABOUT USING THE PREOUTS TO A SEPARATE AMP TO PROVIDE THE EXTRA AMP TO A BI-AMPABLE SPEAKER, WHICH IS WHAT I AM DOING JIM P
Hi Gene , I hope U doing well .
I was watching Ur channel all the time and for me is audio reference channel (my favorite). I always take Ur worlds very seriously.
Recentlly I upgraded my speakers to MA gold 200 5g 3 way towers (4ohm 88 dB Sensitivity )
, c250 5g center (4ohm 88 dB Sensitivity ) and MA studio rears (4ohm 86dB Sensitivity) , I still running the same speakers for dolby atmos Q acoustics 7000i LPR (6ohms Sensitivity: 85 dB ) and all those speakers are connected to ARCAM AVR 550 reciver whith is 7 channel amplification reciver whith 11 channels processing . When all speakers are driven I noticed on higher volumes (around 75-80Db ) AMP is switch off (power protection ) . I was thinking to add external power amp for atmos speakers and Bi AMP my front speakers using 6 and 7 channels of amplification , I listen quite a bit of stereo music directlly from AMP . In Ur opinion what will be better:
1 - add really really great external power amp class G ARCAM P349 3 channel to drive front and center speakers not doing Bi AMPing around 2200 GBP second hand
2 - add some second hand arcam stereo amp 200 GBP for atmos speakers (take a little bit load off from AMP ) and be amp front speakers using 6 and 7 speaker terminals ( LESS MONEY OPTION )
3 - add mid range/ better power amp class G from arcam P429 4 channel ( 1200 GBP) to drive front and atmos speakers ( a bit of waste class G amp for atmos speakers in that case)
For me that 75-80 Db is enough volume in my room so I was thinking option 3 should be enough but I'm not sure right now , sometimes some movie could be quite demanding in frequency (crossover set at 80hz) but amp mey be under heavy load running all of that speakers .
Hello Gene. I ‘ m bi amping my Emotiva T2 towers with Denon AVRX 6500 H. The other 7 channels go through Emotiva UPA 700. I use it in Auto energy mode. When I need power for music or movies reference level there is.
I've bi-amped my Bronze 100s. I really just did it for two channel cranking it really loud for music. (I play music louder than movies 😂) I don't think it's making a big difference. But I haven't heard any negatives listening either so I'll just leave it be.
Wow, good video. I must have missed a camera change !
I'm running bi-amp. Marantz sr6012 on klipsch rp280f and klipsch rc64ii :) L,C,R and two subs :)
I have a Denon AVC-11sr from 2002 and at that time a 3000 euro purchase . Super build , big powersupply , very good for stereo . So what you say is that I can f.i. for stereo ( that's what I am using it for at this moment ) , I can connect the front f.i. to the woofer/mids of my Swan Diva's , and for the tweeters wire it to the surroundconnections on the amp ?
I have a denon 3808, it’s a 7.1 system with a 2ch assignable which can be assigned for bi-amp or a separate zone or even a separate 2ch system and even incorporate it a 9ch system which is what I’m using to power 2 small bookshelves
I have NHT-VT2 LR speakers which has passive subs at the bottom which is powered from my avr and the subs are bi-amped with an NHT-SA2 subwoofer giving me that extra base
I own a Marantz SR 7013 and Paradigm Premier 800F coupled with Paradigm Premier Center 600C and the main surrounds are taken care by NHT SuperZero 2.1's
I'm running only 5 ch and I use a pair of SVS PB-1000s for the LFE's and main channel crossed at 80 Hz.
I had bi-amped in the begining and was listening to music strictly on pure direct mode and felt it was slightly beneficial to biamp.
When I integrated the subwoofers, I couldnt find the biamping the 800F + 7013 was beneficial...
800F's are fantastic speakers for money and thanks to audioholics for reccomending it.
I agree that it should be reserved for higher current amps or flagships. I currently run Revel F208 speakers and much like the 328Be’s really need a decent amount of current to get them singing. While my modest Denon 4520 receiver can do it I’d rather run 5.1 as well as possible than tax the dynamic range. If I had one of the newer generation amplifiers I’d consider bi amping the remaining surround channels for a touch more headroom.
I have prepro Marantz 7705 with biamp feature might try it out one day on my emotiva T2+.
Bi-amping for 2 channel listening only. Both older components: Pioneer Elite receiver rated at 140wpc to Yamaha towers. Noticeable extra headroom as Gene says.
I’ve been wanting to use this feature on my Yamaha aventage 2080, even though I only have bookshelf’s for my stereo channels.Def tech SM55’s
I have a Sr7009 and I have 5.1+bi amp in one room for home theater, and two channels in the bedroom as a bonus. I could then skip the stereo amp in the bedroom, as well as benifit from the better dac in the marantz. (had line out from the nuc pc before)
i have two unused channels on the amp & the feature for it, so i bi-amped my 2-way speakers and i love it. i am used to my system for years now and to get this extra boost of power to the system with only two additional cables is very welcome and totaly worth it.
but i was disapointed that the audyssey does not mesure the low- and high channels seperately. i think the bi-amping feature would benefit a lot and be more worth to try for more people.
i tried now to mesure the low- and the high speaker seperately and afterwords i changed the distance and the level to the average worth. the result is pretty good i think. do you think thats a good idea, or do you see another solution to mesure the channels seperate but in one round? sry bad english :D
Good morning Gene, - Just looking for your opinion on if using the Bi-amp feature on the new Anthem MRX 540 would be worth my time. This would be going to a set up Klipsch tower speakers. Thanks for any input you can provide.
Thanks Gene. Informative as always. I bi-amp with my Marantz 8805 processor. I can program it to use one of the height outputs as a bi-amp channel. So I run the upper section of my mains (Focus 20/20) with a Rotel RB 1080 and the low end with an RB 1090. Plenty of headroom. As you suggested, it's mainly for cranking 2-channel audio, but also comes into play when watching loud action movies.
I'm using the 3311 bi-amped on jbl northridge e80, and it sounds wayyy better then normal settings, I thought snake oil, but holy moly what a difference with good cables and bananas.
Paradigm Premier 800f made in Canada very nice!
Excellent video. I am using the Denon AVR-A110 with a 7.1 Totem speaker setup. I have bi-amped since day one. Why wouldn't I?
Another interesting video Gene - thanks.
I have a request for a topic I haven't seen covered anywhere: Why are there no $1000 pre-amp/processors? Why does a pre-amp - that has no amplifiers - cost more than the same company's flagship receiver even though it has the same processing?! If ever there was something that feels like snake oil, this has been it for me. It's like an audiophile luxury tax. How on earth do companies like Emotiva - who otherwise sell great stuff at reasonable prices - think they need $4k for their processor?! If Marantz/Denon have actually put in a feature in their receivers to TURN OFF the amps, effectively turning the receiver into a processor - why isn't there a cheaper model with no amps? And the worst part of all this is that it is the processor that becomes obsolete, so that's the piece that I want to spend the least on because you're going to want to upgrade it eventually.
This has bothered me for 25 years. Would LOVE to hear your take on it.
The manufacturers know there are suckers out there who can be charged extortionate amount of money for a piece of equipment which should be cheaper.
Late reply, but after being in the AV field for >45 years ; I'm currently about to replace my Yamaha RX-A3020 with the new RX-A6A (BTW I have it BiAmped to my Pinnacle Studio Monitors). I also have an Anthem 5 channel Amp (which is what runs the biamped fronts). I would LOVE to get all the cool processing power a Pre-Pro offers without having to pay for so many amplified channels, but you don't get the high end features in lower priced units! Now, I think the answer to your Q lies in several factors:
1. People who are in the market for Pre-Pro's are usually well informed or just have money to burn (not me!!). I doubt the marketing side of a $1K Pre-Pro works out for the companies, not a big enough market for all the work to make a killer Pre-Pro.
2. As an Electronics Tech, I would wager that over 80% of the effort of a receiver goes into the low signal / processing part of the design. Designing and making a state of the art Pre-Pro is the expensive part, with such small signals it's easy to get noise, not to mention all the licensing fees are in there (DTS, Dolby, THX, etc, etc, etc). Not many licensing fees on an Amp.
3. The market share for Pre-Pros is an inherently smaller group, so you HAVE to charge more to make back your design costs.
Bottom line - they're in business to make money, not give away hard work. ;)
Certainly a certain amount of it is just greed - charging what the market will bear, but the margins on audio equipment isn't really all that high (until you get above the $2 mark, then it starts getting nuts!!). LPT - $400/foot cables don't improve your sound ... ;P
@@mickmouse2258 Interestingly, since I posted that comment last year the topic had come up on avsforums several times, and now there actually are 2 "entry" level pre/pros. There is the Tonewinner AT-300 that's under $1500, and from what I understand Emotiva has brought out their own version of that unit (BasX MC1) that's under $1k. Tonewinner has good reviews but people generally don't like Emotiva's processors due to buggy firmware. Regardless, unless those become really successful and start a trend, I still doubt we see Denon (for example) coming out with a $1k 11.2 pre/pro (even though I think they would sell enough of them to be worth it). Frustrating.
@@redstang5150 (I did a "Quick Reply" in the notification panel and it vanished) ... I hear ya! I'm currently about to buy a Yamaha RX-A6A but what I REALLY want is a Pre-Pro. I had an Anthem AV20 that I had to retire because of no HDMI support (add on board was released, but without updated standards), so I'm replacing an RX-A2030. I still have the awesome matching Anthem 5 channel amp (in use) but that leaves me a few channels short on my current ATMOS system ... ;-) So I'd need a Pre-Pro and an Amp. That pushes it past the range of the Wife (and CFO) Approval Factor. The A6A solves that for less $$. {Sigh} Cheers!
@@mickmouse2258 That Yamaha is a nice unit but even that's more than I was interested in spending (and I'm the CFO in my house so that's a self imposed limit - ha). I have an older Yamaha TSR-7790 that was only $500 when I got it 8 years ago and it has full 7.2 pre-outs. I had that paired with Emotiva amps and was just using it as my pre/pro. Needed to migrate it from my HT to my family room system when the cheap receiver I had there died. Found that now you have to spend well over $1k even to get a receiver that has full pre-outs, and the cheapest quality option I could find was the Denon x3700 so I got that. 9.2 for about $1300. It's maybe only slightly better - very subtle improvement if at all from the Yamaha, but my purchase was more about just needing another AVR vs. looking for any sort of sound upgrade, so again, the less spent on the one HT component to become obsolete the better. I haven't put Atmos speakers in yet either - that will probably be a bigger difference. Otherwise I generally think the DSP multichannel processing is now so good across the board that it's pretty much a commodity, making the choice more about price and features.
It's helpful video - thanks. A question, how about bi-wiring integrated stereo amplifiers like Yamaha AS-2200? What's your recommendation?
No i wouldnt do Bi-wiring. Biwiring essentially makes the cable twice as long, which will lower the natural resonance to one-half of a single cable. ... For instance, if the resonances and reflections at high frequency are significant, the impedance seen by the amplifier could be reduced to less than one ohm.
I’m bi-Amping from a Denon AVR-X3700H to Monitor Audio’s gold speakers 100’s into 4 Ohms, using a Monitor Audio subwoofer. The speakers are classified as bookshelf, not set up as advised as I have to compromise in my home area. The sound is superb in my opinion using my hifi components.From experience you will never completely be satisfy with your sound, because music quality recordings are so inconsistent. While I’m interested in improving my sound I will try all sorts of tweets.
Thank you
Using a Sony 7.2 channel AVR in a 3.1 speaker configuration. I bi-amp the front speakers thereby using 5 of the available 7 amplifier channels. No noticeable sound difference at normal listening levels. Ignoring power supply limitations, each amplifier channel is operating at one-half of the power load compared to a standard speaker connection.
I built my own bi-amping amp, 4 lm1875 ic driven mono blocks, 2 active analog 2nd order active cross over with an output protection circuit…oh yeah large toroidal xformer, nice bunch of caps… so yeah. Sonically impressed ,I had chosen speakers before deciding on cross over frequency point …..
I need to get it fixed up, one of the amps inside shorted out when I tested it after 10yrs of storage.
Maybe I can put in some class d amps and revamp the whole thing.
Would be a great project AGAIN.
Hi Gene, thanks for this. I’ve got an older Onkyo TX875 which was pretty “ stout “ in its day. I am using all 7 channels per say, but using separate amps via pre outs ( 2- old school Integra M -5030 ) for front and side surrounds, and the 875 is essentially just powering the center and rear surrounds.
Am I leaving something on the table here that could be enhanced? I am using triton ones ( original version) for main front, golden ear super center xl, and 4 really old school Energy 22 pro monitors fircside snd rear surrounds, Using sub feature of tritons connected to sub channel ( effectively giving me two front self powered subs ) and 2 rear subs via signal split of sub channel ( Marin Logan dynamo’s)
All sounds fantastic for non atmos and other new tech, but any suggestions ? Two channel music via the triton ones are excellent, but not over the top loud ....movies are incredible and far more punch than I’d ever need.
Btw-one sub out channel feeding all 4 sub inputs via splitting did have some phasing issues in rear subs but tweaked that with the Audyseey and on board phasing control of the ML’s.
I’m a die hard follower and just waiting to jump in with new monolith processor and multi channel amp combo. Loving monolith, just need my pocket book to catch up.
Curtis from Canada.
I'm using an Arcam AV 750 with Klipsch speakers bi-amped, This produces a,sharper and less rounded, more dynamic sound and generally stronger bass particularly at low volume. Maybe a better stereo image. The listening volume setting is also lower for the same hearing volume.
Hi Gene, thank you for yet another informative video.
I have only owned two AV Receivers and both of them were/are Onkyo; my current AVR is the the Onkyo TX-RZ830 (previously I had the TX-SR875) .
I have always used the Bi-Amp feature to run my two main front speakers - Monitor Audio Silver RS6.
First of all would you say this is a waste of two additional channels I could be using to increase my current setup from 5.1.2 to 7.1.2?
I am very curious about Bi-Amp and have been looking at getting an external stereo amplifier to run the front speakers via a Pre-Out setup.
However I cannot make it work in my head since the Pre-Out would mean I would still have to sacrifice the surround to continue Bi-Amping, and I do not regain those particular channels with a seperate stereo amplifier.
Is there a way to run the front left and front right speakers from a Pre-Out connection to an external stereo amplifier, which then can individually Bi-Amp the sound being sent to the RS6 speakers?
As a result this would then leave me 9 channels to power/process on the TX-RZ830; potentially I could have 7.1.4 setup.
I hope this makes sense and that you can provide the absolutes that I personally have not been able to find when researching this for myself.
Thank you in advance and I hope you are keeping safe and well.
If u haven't figured this out yet, I'll give u some advice. If u get an RCA Y splitter, you can do this. Obviously, you'll need amps to connect to. So, take the splitter and connect one to the right and one to the left. Now, each has the ability to connect rca cables, left and right to one splitter. Run those to a 4 channel amp or 2, 2 channel amps. Then, connect the speaker wire as needed to your speakers. The splitter is 1 male RCA, to 2 female RCA ends. It's hard to explain without showing you but I assume you get the idea.
I have Arcam AVR20 and positive difference with Bi-Amping is clear (KEF R3)
Hi Gene thank you for a very informative video as always. I would like to hear you thoughts on active bi-amping. I have an 7.4.4 home theater setup with a Denon X6500H that I use as a pre-amp. I have a Emotiva XPA Gen-3 7 Channel amp and a XPA Gen-3 5 channel amp that power my speakers. I have a Klipsch RP speaker system with RP-8000F fronts, RP-504C centre speaker, RP 600m's for surrounds and backs, Klipsch
in-celling speakers and 4x SVS PB2000 Pro subs connected with a mini-dsp. I am considering bi-amping the RP800F's and maybe the RP600m's by adding an additional amp. Is it active bi-amping If I were to add a new mini DSP between the AVR and the amps for the fronts to calibrate the signal and the crossover with REW. Does this sound like a good idea to improve the sound quality and do you have any suggestions on how the crossover should be set between the tweeter and the woofer?
I bi-amped with my Denon x4000 AVR with Monitor audio RS1 bookshelf speakers. The speaker are 6 ohm rated by the manufacture. The crossover setting was at 80Hz. My AVR amp was fried. Several resistors were burned out on rear channels according to my local electronical repair man. It cost me $185 to repair.
THANKS FOR THIS INFO 👍. Could you do a video on hooking up the wiring on the back 🤔. I have B&W 802s biwired and recently upgraded
to a YAMAHA RX-A 3080 and I would appreciate your help to see if I can make use of the unused channels THANKS 😍😍😍
A hook up video would be most appreciated 🤞
Gene- what about if we have an external amplifier with AVR preouts? Would you recommend bi-amping with a Monolith 7x for example?
Hey Gene, I’ve owned a tx-nr3010 for quite some years now. In this receiver Onkyo offered a feature that they called the digital processing crossover network. I loved the idea because of some time I spent enjoying car audio. It was common to run the pre signal to one amp that would amplify the high or low end and then filter and pass the pre signal to the next amp that would then handle the complimentary portion of the music (high or low depending on what the first amp was handling). Onkyo, I think, stopped offering this digital processing crossover network feature.I thought the digital processing crossover network allowed for “active bi-amping” because it split the signal before the amplifier stage. Almost every forum I read on bi-amping it seems like there’s some consensus that active bi-amping as opposed to passive bi-amping does provide some benefit. Is this feature that Onkyo offered (splitting the pre signal digitally high/low before the amplifier section) not really active bi-amping and if it is why do they and other manufacturers seem to not offer it now??? I ask because I recently purchased a used marantz AV8801 and was surprised to see that it doesn’t seem to offer even passive bi-amping as a feature. It’s supposed to be high end and came out around the same time as the tx-nr3010.
Hi! Thanks for this video. Can I hook 2 amps using a mixer?
I'm looking to get a new receiver & going 7.2.2 not bothered about Atmos.
Still running my Integra DTR8.8 from 2008
Really the only thing I'm missing with it is 4k HDMI switching.
Yea sure, some of the new audio formats too but I don't have all the extra speakers to use Atmos.
Was running 7.1 but still haven't hooked up the surrounds in my new house.
Hi Gene, I have entry level Yamaha rx-v385 5.1 , pair of 300W floor-standing yamaha NS-F160. Do you think Bi-amp" can be an option for me. I did bi-wiring the tower speaker but not sure if bi-amping can be useful.
I have a Denon 6500H which has 11 channels of amplification. I have a 5.1.2 set-up and I'm bi-amping NHT VT2.4 towers in the front. The extra two channels are used for zone 2 outside patio.
Passive bi amping from the same unit has basically no effect on output. Passive bi-amping from 2 discreet units can add something like +3db of output. Active bi amping which gene mentions is where the money is at but it gets expensive very quickly, you also lose out on WAF. I was really expecting Gene to go a hard no on passive bi amping, with the platform he has I would expect him to help steer people away from foo, I’m disappointed. The comments on this video are insane, people asking about bi wiring etc this is on you Gene :/
I have 2 sets of Tannoy V4i towers in front of my setup and i have the A and B turn on on my Yamaha reciever, so i have basicaly 4 front speakers ( 2 left and 2 right) doing the 2 front channels. It gives me a super wide soundstage because 2 are on the side of the TV and the other 2 are far on each corner of the room, and then i have 2 tannoy V1i for surround and one Tannoy VCi center channel.. I dont know if im doing a good thing or not.. but i kinda like the sound of it like this.. I dont know if BI-amping and just use 1 set of towers hould give a better sound, i never tried it... My reciever is a entry level old one RX V550, but i love it. Im saving up to upgrade but for now this still kicks S, and im waiting for 2 SVS PB2000pro to arrive next month.. cant wait, i think i have never been so hyped in my life. loooool..
I have a class D pioneer sc-2023
Is the speaker A and B option the same thing. One can be used for high frequency
I am using a NAD M3, I will try to bi-amp with the A+B option.
Thank you for this interesting topic and video. as I have entry level of yamaha avr rx v385 with 5.1 and have function to bi amp for evo 4.2 sound ok. at least I am still happy with that. any advice? thank you.
Hello Gene, great video as always. I have Denon x4300 and Polk Rti-A9s. Would it benefit to bi-amp the polks with the receiver OR get a 2 channel 125W/ch amp and run the polks with that?? Thank you
I have a pioneer sc-97 and I bi amp my energy cf70 speakers and they seem to be happier with this setup, was going to pick up the Elac towers before I went with this setup, do you think this is a good setup or should I get the Elac’s
I tried biamping with an 833A SET on the woofers and a 45 SET on the mid and tweeters. Then I tried it letting the 833A SET on the whole speaker and it sounded better. I changed to Magnepan speakers which do not biamp. I only use these big transmitter tubes on the stereo channels and a GM70 SET on the center channel which uses a Magnepan center channel speaker. For surround channels I use 45 SETs with sensitive bipolar speakers; 5 channels as as far as I go because I use it for 5 channel SACD and for movies, operas on film only put out at most 5 channels.
Good video. So if you are not using the other two amps, for example (using 5 when 7 are available), will the output for the 5 channels be higher or the same as if you were using all 7 channels? I just got the Sony STR-ZA1100ES yesterday and I was planning on setting it up this Friday. Thanks.
The 1100ES has a fairly solid build quality and the power rating is equal on all channels. The only thing you run into is when driving that receiver at high volume. The power supply is decent but not remarkable so I would expect to hear some strain to power all channels when running at high volume. Other than that, the sonic benefits of bi-amping should more than offset any power supply considerations during 2-channel listening.
Gene, solid advice as always, but I don't agree with the "don't bi-amp small 2-way speakers" advice, at least not with demanding speakers. I had a NAD T775 driving Jamo D830's and even though it was capable of delivering the current needed for the less than optimal impedance dipping to 2,8 Ohm the sound was much better when bi-amped. We A/B tested it a lot and also using a separate power amp.
Currently I have a Yamaha RX-A3070 driving floor standing Triangles with even worse impedance characteristics and though the differences are so small I'm not even sure they're really there when driving them with bass management rolling the off at 60 Hz or 80 Hz I have kept the bi-amp setup. Sure could use those channels for two additional Atmos speakers as well as going from 5.2.2 to 7.2.4, so I'm considering buying a separate power amp.
I’m using a pioneer vsx-1131 with monitor audio mr4. I haven’t notice any difference with bi-amping but I made it just because avr and speakers were capable off that feature. I really don’t know if my setup worth it.
What is the best way to wire Boston Acoustics VR975 speakers with a Denon AVR 3313-CI receiver? The towers have rca inputs for the powered subs. Currently I have LFE preamp out connected to rca ins for bass, and line level for mods and highs.
Wouldn't some of that depend on the speakers sensitivity? I'm running klipsch RP-8000 on a denon X6500h. Mostly for home theater in 5.2.4. I'm thinking bi-amping wouldn't bring much benefit
Hi Gene.. First off, thank you for the video, very informative . I’m running a Marantz SR-8012 and a 7.1 setup. Eventually, I would like to add maybe a set of height channels. I really don’t do too much 2 channel listening , think I should still bi-amp my klipsch rf-62’s?
I have that A/V. I was running a 11.2 With a 3 channel monalith amp.
Really wasn’t worth the money. I sold the amp and went with a 9.2 with bia- amping my front towers (jbl system). Sounds the same to me.
Got some money back on the amp and stashed away the two speaker I removed.
Just letting you know what I did.
Larry
@@mafosa8519 thank you, that’s good to know .. are you running your atmos in the front? Or back ??
@@dannyb0325 running front n rear height speakers.
I live in apt. So. No atmos for me.
Larry
Hey Gene, thanks for another great Video! Love the channel and what you do! What do you think about bi amping with a 5 channel power amp connected to a receiver? Two channels for each tower and a single channel for my center channel?
not a bad idea IF your towers have multiple bass drivers and you're not just biamping a passive 2-driver speaker and wasting an amp just on the tweeter.
@@Audioholics
Marantz SR5012
Carver AV 705x
Polk Audio RTi
A7 Towers
CSi Center
I’m going to play around with it and see what happens. Thanks
So bottom line, get an external 2 channel amplifier for my lows on my klipsch RP6000'S?
Bi-amping with Marantz SR8002 and B&W 703s. It’s a bit more powerful than the 8015 based on your measurements Gene.
Every extra sticker costs $500 and/or 50 watts of power:). That 8002 was the best deal of all time in terms of power per dollar.
My system consists of a Pioneer VSX-1023 ($500 avr) and a couple of Altec Valencia speakers/cabinets.
I removed the crossover networks aqnd installed banana plug jacks to use in bi-amping. The avr has a bi-amp feature, but there are a couple of issues.
The crossover frequency was designed at 800Hz. and the avr has a 200Hz. limit. The other issue is the lack of clarity about using the feature. The manual states the bi-amp feature includes Surround 5.1. I've done the bi-amp section but haven't figured out how to get the Surround 5.1 in the settrings. My test file is the TV episode: Star Trek s01e04, with 3F2MLFE audio configurtion.
Thanks for the video, thanks for the information.
Hey Gene, I run an older Yamaha Aventage RX-A1000 hooked up to klipsch rp250 towers for my front channels. I have considered running them bi-amped but haven't gotten around to getting the external amp for the rear surrounds yet. Reciever is rated at 105w per channel all channels driven as far as I know. But those specs are probable not accurate. Do you think its worth while to do it or just leave as is.