Soul, Scenery, and Storage: 2021 Street Glide vs. 2021 Chieftain vs. 2022 R 18 B | Cycle World
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2024
- A comparison of great American touring machines and their new Bavarian competition. Cycle World compares the 2021 Harley-Davidson Street Glide Special, 2021 Indian Chieftain Limited, and 2022 BMW R 18 B First Edition.
As autumn descended on most of America and leaves turned from green to brown, we found ourselves basking in the relative timelessness of California’s coastline, with only the cooler mornings and the sparsity of traffic hinting at the approaching winter. On three baggers we cruised north along the Pacific Coast Highway past Malibu’s beachfront mansions, the sun burning off the morning fog; waves crashed off of rocks close enough to mist the road, and two pelicans matched our speed over the ocean. Our motorcycles were designed and built for the long, patient enjoyment of this sort of scene, for long-haul, big-mile touring.
But their appeal lies equally in style, tradition, and the rider’s emotional connection to the bike. We took full advantage of all this. On California’s iconic coastline road, our saddlebags packed and our music on the stereos, we were taking our sweet time to Big Sur.
Along with me for this ride through scenery and soul are Cycle World’s Executive Editor Justin Dawes and former professional roadracer and longtime motorcycle test rider Chris “Siebs” Siebenhaar. Collectively, we’re on the 2021 Harley-Davidson Street Glide Special, 2021 Indian Chieftain Limited, and 2022 BMW R 18 B First Edition. All these bikes walk the line between classic bagger style and feel and modern performance and technology. Each translates the bagger ideal, and represents its manufacturer’s history, in its own way. Each engine is designed to provide loads of immediate torque from idle and maintain highway speeds at low revs while serving as the visual and spiritual heart of the motorcycle.
Engine Character
Powering the Street Glide beneath me was Harley-Davidson’s Milwaukee-Eight 114. By design, this engine rumbles and shakes at idle, as it’s rubber mounted in the frame, but it smooths out completely when underway. This engine has progressed and improved through decades of refinement and the addition of a counterbalancer, but retains the signature sound that’s resonated through American motorcycling for nearly a century. The Street Glide has no ride modes, just a throttle and your hand upon it, and that’s all this engine needs. Engaging the M-8 gives the most direct, analog feel in this group, but perhaps surprisingly, it’s also the smoothest and easiest to control. The level of throttle and clutch feel, the way the engine vibrations go through you; everything that makes you feel like an extension of the motorcycle makes riding the H-D a joy. The machine creates a connection between rider and bike that’s become a trademark of the bagger riding experience. Both BMW and Indian replicate this in their own ways with varying levels of success.
Dawes followed on the Chieftain Limited, which carries Indian’s Thunder Stroke 116, an engine featuring cooling fins on the cylinder heads and short parallel pushrod tubes, a design meant to look like the flathead engines that powered early Chief models. The 49-degree V-twin is solidly mounted in the frame, so it doesn’t move around like the H-D’s. Not that it’s bland by any means, firing to life with an unmistakably American rumble of combustion before quickly smoothing out. But much of the 116′s less tactile identity lies in its exhaust note, which is characteristic of its narrow-angle vee; the engine’s idling lope gives way to a loud crack when the throttle is twisted and becomes a satisfying growl as revs rise. Of the three ride modes, Standard was the best, matching rider expectation of throttle movement to engine response. The Tour mode slows response to throttle input, while Sport mode’s abrupt initial response makes it difficult to be smooth. The 116 is strong and torque-rich, with the highest output of the group, making the Chieftain extremely fun to ride. Still, clutch and throttle feel leave something to be desired.
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BMW R18 - a piece of art👍 🌟
I have the BMW R18B. I absolutely love the comfort and uniqueness of this bike. It has a lot of character and if kept under 80 it’s completely smooth. I rode for about 50 miles at 90 to 100 and although it vibrates it never hurt my hands or made me slow down. As a owner of numerous HD tourers, the BMW is a fresh breath of air, and you won’t see one on every corner.
I just bought a new 2023 B , any advice ? Thanks
Something else you won’t see on every street corner is a shop that will work on a BMW. I can’t speak for their bikes, but being in the automotive side they are needed…
As much as I dislike Polaris thru experience with several of their products I would easily by an Indian over a BMW
@@lanejohnson7656 bmw bikes aren’t like that I work at a dealer we never work on them
@@LEEBEECEE Buy the tools and buy the cable to reset the light when you do your own services. Absolutely use the specified fluids for service. Fuchs Titan EG 4218 BMW M3 GL5 spec 70w-80 hypoid gear oil for final drive on the shaft and gearbox. learn to adjust the valves and do oil changes yourself. PIA to pull the right fake "valve cover" and have to use a tool from the tool box to undo access to the motor oil spout.
@@josephandreuccetti7270 Probably because the fluids, material and labor rates are exhorbitant for basic service.
Love those Indian motorcycles!
They just keep getting better and better!
This is why i love competition in an open market. It forces competitors to be better and better!
That Thunderstroke engine in the Chieftain is bulletproof and so much fun.
until you hit 50k miles...then it goes kaput
@@thesage1621 really ? 😮
@@thesage1621 not true Harley guy. I have 50k miles on mine not a single problem except there was some sort of relief valve on the front of the right side case that would weep a drop or 2. It was hardly noticeable. I got it changed out
I just dont like the looks of the BMW.
Brand loyalty can hold one back. I've owned 3 HD's and 2 Goldwing's but my BMW is a precision beast. The TFT takes some getting use to but other than that it a fantastical motorcycle. we can armchair quarter back about what's the best bike but until you actually been on the BMW and first hand witness the fit and finish, it's engine and ride. Did I mention I had 2 GW's and 3 HD's?
Youve made my decision. When my Vulcan motor goes out I’m getting a BMW
Venturing off into the unknown can also be bad. I have zero experience with their bikes but have some experience with their cars being in automotive. Finding a shop that will work on a BMW can be a nightmare depending on where you are and many areas will have to resort to trailering it to a shop. And on the automotive side they need repairs.. lol. That alone will keep me off a BMW seat.
@@lanejohnson7656 BMW cars and BMW motorcycles are a completely different. Don't judge the Bikes until you try it.
@@lanejohnson7656The issues is the same in the UK but in reverse, finding a place to service a HD is almost impossible, BMW however offer very good service packages.
@@charleschenet2336 If I find their cars not so great I’m not going to spend my money on a motorcycle of theirs.. lol I like BMW car styling because they are wickedly cool looking cars, but you couldn’t give me one. I have a hard time believing their bikes are any better..
My last HD spent 17 weeks in the shop during is first year. Switched to Indian and very happy!
Apparently you absolutely suck at taking care of your bikes. My Harley is a 2004 with 50k miles and it's in pristine condition.
@@fmpabxx7834may have got a dud lol. I have a 2019 sgs with 84k miles and still running strong. Only needed Oil and tires.
Yeah right because you have hardly any miles on your bike. 50,000 miles on a 21 year old bike. Pathetic really. My bike looks good because l don't ride it. HAHAHA😂😂😂@@fmpabxx7834
@@fmpabxx7834 You need to back off man. He clearly states it was in his first year-that's not "taking care of" his bike, that's a clear poor build and warranty claim nightmare, which a couple of my friends have had with Harley as well. Maybe 2004 was a great build quality year, but the more recent years......I hear more hit and miss. 3 of the older guys I ride with tried the new Goldwing and they were all mad they hadn't dumped their Harleys years ago. And a Goldwing will easily double the total miles a Harley will while being way faster, smoother, and getting better mileage.
I picked up a Chieftain and have no complaints.
Still liking it?
@@thomasjoseph9224 yes. Went from a Rocket 3 Roadster. Less power (stage 2 kit helped a bit) but much nicer ride.
I have a Chieftain and agree on the stock seat, i didn't like it at all, so changed it to the stock Roadmaster seat and it's so much better. I find the foot position compared to the Harley is so much more comfortable. I find the Harley just sits too high and found I couldn't lean it as far as the Indian. I have stage 1 and 2 performance upgrades and the bike has great power, and very comfortable on long trips
Still like your Indian? I’m about to buy one. Long time Harley rider here
I'm still searching my Chieftain for that "blow-molded plastic" with the untrimmed flashing. Was your test bike a kit?
Great reviews guys. Your conversations are perfect for these bikes. I am 6’3” and I have the BMW R18 TransCon and it’s a work of art. I feel like I have lots of leg room. And the 10 inch screen, stereo, acc, brakes, suspension and overall tech is light years ahead. After 20 years of sport touring and adventuring riding, it’s nice to slow down and lumber. The vibration disappears using roll mode and the character works.
Just ordered a 2022 Indian Chieftain Dark Horse, it arrives in September. Though I'll miss riding for this summer, I'm still excited about the bike. It offers some much more standard opinions than any of the two bikes listed in the video.
I notice that folks rarely mention the BMW's adaptive cruise control and the reverse gear? Why is that? I found the ACC to be a game changer for touring, and the reverse gears make it a breeze to move the bike around.
ACC is definitely a game changer
My 2014 Indian Chieftain has been an amazing bike. I've never had a better bike, and I've owned them all. I am seriously considering the Indian Challenger, though.
Did you get a challenger? I think if I had the money the challenger would be the best bike
I feel you didn't mention the Indian comes with power locking saddlebags, Power adjusting windscreen, tire pressure monitoring, and LED lights all the way around. You can't get that on a Harley unless you get a CVO, but you still don't have a power windscreen. I had a 2018 street guide special, and I felt cramped on that bike, And after about 20,000 miles I kept smelling oil when I got through riding it, I have no idea why. So I traded it in on a 2020 Indian chieftain elite, and I don't regret it at all.
seems like a bias.
Probably because not everyone cares for those 3 features.
To me personally a power windshield is a gimmicky feature that’s it not a matter of if but when it will fail. My Klockwerks is not only install and forget with zero worry of mechanical failure but also adds to the looks of the bike..
Whenever I’m getting off the bike I am opening at least one bag to throw gloves in and grab a hat. I’m literally standing right next to the bag so locking it (if I want to) isn’t an issue. I also don’t have to have my fob if I want to get in it or someone else I know is getting into it if it’s unlocked. Which happens a lot in my experience.
I’m not a fan of tire pressure monitors because for 1 tires balance better internally, I often order tires and install them myself, I don’t like ugly weights on the outside of the wheel and most importantly I like to inspect my tires frequently and I trust a gauge more. With tire monitors people to tend to get lazy and just look at the screen to see pressure and not inspect their tires.
@Lane Johnson And that's okay, but a lot of us do care about those features. You do you, that's okay, those of us that like those features, will enjoy them. I have two Harleys, and I have two Indians, so I'm not a Harley hater, I love my Harleys, but I love my Indians too. Harley fan boys are just haters, they hate anything not Harley. I like all motorcycles, I don't care about the name on the gas tank, if I like it, I like it.
@@hdmoto3875 I’m far from Harley or die. Yamaha made some of the most sexy and reliable bikes on the planet. It’s sad they got out of the game.
Something to ponder on. When you demand manufacturers to add features that will end result make their products disposable and throw away with systems to fail with time, you will get a throw away bike that drops in value dramatically.. Not a big concern if constantly chasing the latest and greatest and can afford the loss.
Love these comparisons. Great job as always!
My 2019 FLHTK is extremely comfortable, looks amazing( Granted I did chrome all around and changed every light to LED). Threw on a full Cobra exhaust(deleted the cat) and a Woods 22xe cam and an arleness heavy breather and now runs like a rocket. Couldn't be happier!
That Indian rear suspension does it for me - My Streetglide nearly broke my back 😏
Agreed HD rear shocks are embarrasing !! swapped out for Ohlins as first thing to do
I think everyone would agree Harleys rear suspension is shit, and they probably make it that way on purpose.
Good format for this comparison. Great job guys
Interesting review format and would like to see future reviews done similarly.
All the Harley fans say excellent video .Of course they would.
You guy’s did a great comparison test, thank you. You both just nailed it. The touring/cruiser segment is a totally different animal than race/sport bike categories.
Guys, GREAT reviews, keep up the great work
NO doubt at all My favorite Motorcycle of these there Amazing Bikes it's The Absolutely Stunning, Superb, Spectacular and Unique BMW R18 Bagger ❤👊✌️👍😊!!!
Great comparison but one important point was missed and that's the reliability and maintenance cost of these three bikes. In which order you would classify these bikes?
nice vid. Good compairison. I like all three bikes so to see them head to head is great.
Three antique motorcycles competing each other!
Very good vid, notably when going through the comfort items etc (floorboards on the Beemer, 'locked-in' seating on the Indian etc). Thanks.
I always owned HD Touring bikes and my last one is a CVO Road Glide. Last week end I bought a BMW Transcontinental and the handling of this bike in tight curves and hairpin bends is amazing and much better than the various HD Touring bikes I had. Suspensions too are way better than the Street Glide or Road Glide or Limited I had all with Ohlins shocks. The level of details and perceived quality is just amazing with the BMW R18 B or Transcontinental. The Torque that these bikes give in REAL life (not with numbers only...) is exactly the same of a 114 ci HD V-Twin. Vibrations? Use the mapping modes and learn how to manage RPMs with this huge Boxer 1800 cc engine and everything will be under control. The 10.5 inches TFT of the R18 B or Transcontinental is from another league. The Marshall stage 2 of my Transcontinental is way better than the Boom Audio 2 system of my CVOs (Street Glide, Road Glide). These bikes are way better than what I see in many USA videos where reviewers or wannabe ones tend to always stay with American bikes.
Id say Harley sponsored there review!
If you're touring on these motorcycles, Harley dealerships are everywhere, while BMW dealerships are scarce. A breakdown on a BMW motorcycle could literally result in a tow of hundreds of miles to the nearest dealership.
@@dh2392 probably in Your Country. In Europe BMW dealers are definitely more present, in number, than HD dealers.
@@CVO_MAN yes, I am talking about the US. Here BMW dealers are not common.
@@dh2392 Harley dealerships are everywhere because there are harleys break down everywhere. LOL just a motorcycle joke.
Excellent review...the best!
Excellent video, guys. Working for such a corporate stalwart, I give you mad respect for your consistent objectivity. I own a '21 Street Bob and plan to add a '22 RKS to the stable this year, and found your analysis useful. I'm just too much of a purist to add infotainment. Thanks for making such great content.
I thought the same but quickly changed my mind after I bought mine. You will like it especially on those long rides.
@@mojomanmurph1925 So you're saying you've got a SGS and prefer it over the RKS? I ask because, ironically I just sat on a SGS at the dealership last week and loved the ergonomics. For me, it was WAY more well-suited than the RGS. Granted, I'm 5'9" and the RGS cockpit seemed "too far," but the SGS seemed like Goldilocks. I'm looking to buy by summer, so I'll give it a serious look. Thank you.
@@Peter-mcmcmc I have a 2020 sgs with ALOT of aftermarket and S.E parts and I love everything about it. I’m 6ft and with the mustang seat, ext rear brake lever, floorboards and 12” bars, it’s great for my height. Legs aren’t pressed to the tank, pulled back controls, and the seat with the lever gave me like 2” leg extension. I changed the F&R suspension because I’m heavier and carry gear. All things being equal the SGS and RKS are the same minus the fairing and what comes with it. I couldn’t imagine not having a full fairing after having one, like with my pickup truck, given that I’m likely to say “let’s go” and haul out for 2-3 days. The RGS to my understanding is diff in that you’re less leaned back than with the SGS but idk as I’ve never been on one. My gf was thinking RKS but then the heritage caught her eye and she fell in love.
Glad they picked the bike you like even though they are full of it lol.
@@ICEMANINVADER Thanks for your insights and sorry for my delayed response. Ironically, I was at the dealership last week and a 2020 SGS with 12" bars caught my eye. AS SOON AS I SAT ON IT, I knew it was a serious contender for my dollars, alongside a RKS. I'm nowhere near your height (5'9"), but, like you, the seating position and general ergonomics felt "Goldilocks." No doubt those 12" bars made the difference compared to when I sat on the RKS.
Honestly I've owned several Harleys and the BMW R18B is hands down my favorite bagger I've experienced.
I owned a Harley for 18 years and rented numerous BMW’s. I currently have an Indian dark horse chieftain. I love Harleys, but Indian is a better motorcycle all around. Unless you want all the merchandise and the belonging that Harley brings, I don’t see why you would buy one over an Indian. The best motorcycle I’ve ever ridden is a BMW 1250 GS adventure. The power, the speed, and the balance and the agility are amazing and the tech on it is incredible.
Que teste maravilhoso, três motocicletas Top.
I own the 2022 FLHXSE in Steel Blue. The backlit controls and heated grips are awesome. Few people review this. When you ride at night and you probably will at some time.. this is as good as it gets. No guessing where the brites and horn are :) The GPS is easy to see in the sun and the sterio is amazing. Harley paint options(even the paint on the rims) are great. i dont see anyone close on these options yet. great channel, new subscriber
It's about time that someone did a review on these baggers!
I rode my Victory Vision from San Diego to Sturgis to SLC and then home to Massachusetts…when I rode around Sturgis guess what make of motorcycle I ALWAYS saw on the the side of the road broken down? Right the Harley Davidson…
Excellent review!
I have a 21 SGS , I LOVE it.
Is the vibration on the BMW something that comes with a boxer engine or were you saying it was designed into the bike?
The one thing you couldn't assess was reliability. How will these bikes rate 3 years from now?
I have a Harley tour bike and like it very much. My previous bike was a 1200cc boxer from BMW. The 1200 boxer was smooth as silk. I was hoping the big boxer was smooth as silk also but maybe not? Time for a test ride. Thanks for that super evaluation.
Can you do a comp on the 3 versus ride comfort and stability with a Toyota tundra?
Clearly brand attached here! No way in HELL is the HD suspension a winner of any bagger lol, reason why riders spend plenty of money on after market suspension for HD
I owned a 2014 Street Glide Special with the 103 and regret selling it. I really loved it and enjoyed riding it like I stole it 😎. I now own a 2004 Road King with the 88 engine and numbered 15/100. I really love the way it rides better than the Street Glide I owned previously. I’m thinking of getting the R18B. I want something different and nostalgic.
Hi, i am writimg to you from Germany near Munic. I drive only BMW cars, but never a BMW Bike.
I own 2 Harley Davidsons, a Ultra Limited and an new Fat Boy. The BMW and the Indian are also very
nice Bikes, but it never feels like a Harley. For me it exists only one Bike...Harley Davidson 4ever!!!!
Good job!!!!!
Watched the video. Thks for the review. Been riding forever, owned many diff bikes. My 2021 R18C is fantastic! It's very smooth! I had it Brentuned, DNA Stage 2 air cleaner, makes GREAT power...excellent gearing...handles great...set the cruise at 105mph...freakin' SOLID...blows away many things....most importantly it is UNIQUE...reminds me of a FW-190... The most unique character of the 3. Btw...parking lot speeds are a breaze! It's all in the clutch! Plus, you FORGOT to mention it has reverse! Best bike of the 3 imo...HD ...yawn...as common as the flu in January.
Excellent review! The video production is superb as well. It's gotta suck having to do all of that work at the PCH:)
Thank you. A lot of work goes into making these videos for a one man crew.
I have an Indian Chief Vintage 2016 and I like it. I like all three of those bikes that you tested too. Good review guys. 🏍️
PCH and Bixby bridge filming beautiful motorcycles never gets old.
Fair, honest review. You can always rely on Morgan to give a review that even weighs the "intangibles." Well done!
I have not watched the whole video but i suspect when someone says fair and honest review it usually means they think the Harley was the best lol. Sorry Indian for the win and its not even close.
This is pretty interesting since I have owned 4 harleys, so if I compare the bmw r18b which I own now to my 2021 roadglide with a 128 in it, it rides so much beter even I had all my suspension upgraded on my harley. Bottom end torque is way more then a stage 2 114 harley. It has as much torque as my 128 had. Not top end power ofcourse but bottom end definitely. Overall way better bike then a harley.
Great Honest Review
Great reviews
I bought my HD SG Special in Snake Venom blacked out 114 last August. It only has just over two inches of travel and you feel it. Rides and corners perfectly, slow handling is exceptional. I like the stock seat for now. Picked up a new 2021 Indian Challenger for the wife for Christmas, this is a beast! Outperforms HD in every way except fit and finish and for me style, which is subjective.
Go with legends suspension, total difference...👍🏁🏁
Comparing water cooled to air cooled
@@davidvanbrunt4233 Or Wilbers. Even better.
I got r18 tc 2022 dis bike have everything very cool and comfortable bike
How about a review of the Honda Rebel 1100 with all the OEM touring accessories (Batwing and bags)?
I have an r18c, and when I watched this video a few months ago, I sympathized with the vibration issue.
However, I have driven 15000km now, but I can confirm that the large vibration has been greatly reduced. That's a fact that surprises even me
Leaving out the gold wing was a mistake. I know you can't have them all though but the Gold Wing has earned it's place. I'm not biased. I ride a Street Glide daily ;). Great video either way.
Might as well buy a scooter.
@@jeffm8882 I have a 2020 road glide but that new GoldWing is a bad bitch!
I think you guys should have compared the Regular Glide with the 107 instead of the Special 114. Just because of the price range. Great Video! Thanks for the info!
the challenger is in a class of its own
Great review! I think what does it for Harley is the incredible feel that you take when riding it; it’s hard to describe but there is a connection between man and machine that brings joy to the ride. The BMW is a great looking bike, plus I like the technology on it.
I rode it but It was that indescribable feeling that made me fall for the Harley’s .
I liked Harleys untill i rode a Indian Roadmaster and now their is no going back for me .Its like driving a civic then driving a lincoln the ride is so much better on the Indian and for people over 5 ft 7 is more comfortable.
I rode my brothers indian. Im sticking with my SG
@chona Simpson thats strange , the general consensus is the HD is the better handling bike
Great video! Just wondering if you know if BMW addressed any of the negative points mentioned in the video for 2023?
No... other than 2 or 3 software updates from the 2021 First edition versions for Bagger and TC.
there were five BMW shops within 12:40 hour of my house here in western Pennsylvania. Now there are zero BMW shops. That didn’t matter much with the old air cold twins that gave BMW they’re excellent reputation for reliability and ease of maintenance.
but starting with the K bikes in the early 80s, the BMWs were not so simple or serviceable by the owner anymore. BMW is the only manufacturer of cars and motorcycles I can think of that creates special fasteners that you need special tools to remove and install many things.. I had to buy a special tool just to bleed my clutch fluid on my K 1200 LT. I was advised by BMW owners on blogs to not even attempt to change the brake fluid on my K 1200 LT because if I got air in the system, the complete braking system was shut down completely at the computer, and it would have to be trailered to the dealer to have him plug it in to do a reset. And, although I did the job myself after buying a special adapter to increase the volume of the master cylinders because of those electric/hydraulic brakes., That would have quickly sucked the brake fluid out of those small master cylinders, shutting down the system, which is what happened to EWAN McGregor, and his friend Charlie Boorman when they went around the world on BMWs back in the 2000s. They had a brake Failure on one of their GS machines, and even though they were on the phone to the factory engineers, they could not jury rig something to get the brakes to work at all. A little inconvenient because this happened in the middle of nowhere in Mongolia were the closest people rode yaks. Somehow they were able to find someone with a vehicle to transport them to the train station where they sent it back to England with no brakes..
my point is, with bMWs, you have to marry the dealer even if you are a do it yourself mechanic like I am. I was a mechanic at four different dealerships when I was in my 20s. I do all my own work I always have, even warranty work, I had a 750 Honda that had defective valve guides from the factory. there was a recall. I pulled my own engine and pulled ahead and gave the dealership which I actually used to work at one time to them to change the valve guides because I didn’t have the tools for that. Then I buttoned it back up and plugged the motor in..
but with today’s motorcycles, especially BMWs, you have to marry the dealer, and around here in western Pennsylvania, all five dealerships are gone..
my experience with my very first BMW K 1200 LT, with many issues, convinced me, I will never buy another BMW. I’ve had three ventures, AGL 1800 Gold 1, four moto guzzis, many dozens of Japanese bikes, Kawasaki triple two strokes, Yamaha RDs and TZ‘s, RZ, Suzukis two and four wheel, Hondas, CB 400 F, CB 750 F, CR 125, even a Bridgestone 350 GTR, beta, gas gas, and fantic trials bikes, I currently have a Kawasaki Z 400 , and I went backwards and years to get away from ABS brakes and bought a Yamaha royal star venture, they can be serviced practically with the tool kit on the side of the road if the clutch, slave cylinder, STATOR, or water pump were to give me trouble on a trip. try that on a GL 1800 or a BMW K 1200 LT..
I do my homework, but if you don’t, labor rates in dealerships now are $125 an hour.. I had a mechanic that was a BMW motorcycle mechanic in one of the local shops in 2010. He was working on a K 1200 LT when I stopped in for an air filter. He called me back to his work area and showed me that he had to remove the trunk, the bags, the fender, the rear frame section, the swingarm, the wheel, the transmission to get out the clutch, because the clutch was ruined when the slave cylinder leaked on it. He said, this is a $4500 job, and that was in 2010 prices..
That’s something to think about before you go out on that BMW limb
Sorry about your experience Jody. I don't know what 12:40 means but there seems to be about the same number of BMW shops here in western PA as there were when I brought my first R75 back from Germany in '75. Not that it really mattered much. I'm on my 5th BMW since then with over 175,000 miles on them and have never had to take any of them to a shop. The most was a 99 K1200 LT with about 75,000 miles in 15 years without a problem or maintenance that couldn't be done at home. I realize the computers of newer bikes will probably require special tools should the need arise. Also, as a disclaimer, I never used the stereo on the LT and will probably never use a NAV system on a bike. I concur with some of the criticisms of the R18 they pointed out. As I currently tour on an RT, none of those apply. I think most of us would enjoy riding whatever we have and there's a lot of nice looking bikes out there.
@@conecomp8835
I didn’t want to complain and badmouth my only BMW I ever had. I know a lot of BMW riders. But they mostly rode the old air cooled twins.. A buddy of my name Wayne Kelly had a BMW specialist shop.. One of the things he specialized in was dual plugging the heads..
here are some of the issues I had with my K 1200 LT
if I use the side stand. On the restart it would pour white smoke out the exhaust. My dealer in Wexford PA said that’s normal
The rear brakes made a horrible grinding sound. The dealer said he could fix that for $750. New rotor and pads from the aftermarket
Final drives we’re failing across the country. Two guys that actually rode together and won the iron butt on bmw’s They carried a complete spare final drive. that had to weigh 40 or 50 pounds…
The windshield was optically distorted. For a motorcycle costing that much that’s not acceptable.
It had hydraulic/electric brakes. They had no feel. They were grabby at below 5 mile an hour speeds. The weird front end did not absorb braking energy. When you hit the front brakes, that energy from the motion and decelerating would go into your front fork springs on a conventional front end..But only on that BMW front end that nobody else in the industry has even attempted to copy, when you hit the brakes, that energy does not go into the front fork springs. That makes the bike a handful to control. The thing weighed 900 pounds.That is the only motorcycle I have dropped in the past 40 years. talking to other BMW K 1200 LT owners about me dropping my machine. They laughed and said, get used to it, everybody drops them and they were not kidding.. I dropped it 2 times in parking lots with the front wheel slightly turned when I would hit the grabby no feel electric brakes.
The machine had a security system that if I stopped for just enough time to fill the gas tank, I would have to get out that key fob and press the button to deactivate the security system every time.
you must bleed the brakes at least every 2 yrs on those machines because they use electric pumps in the ABS braking system to feed the hydraulic pressure to the calipers. every site I found on the Internet said- dont even attempt to do this yourself. If you get air in the system, the bike will have to be trailered to the dealer because it shuts down The complete brake system on the machine you won’t have any brakes front or rear so it goes to the dealer and gets plugged in..
this happened to actor EWAN McGregor and his friend Charlie Boorman as they were circling the globe on BMW GS machines with ABS.They made a television series that was on television called long way around about that trip. And in the television series it showed them having problems with the brakes that could not be fixed.
They had been trained on how to work on the machine before they left on that trip by the factory technicians. They had satellite phones with them in Mongolia when they had a brake problem. No matter what they tried with the assistance of engineers on the phone, they could not get the brakes to work even a little bit. They ended up transporting that bike to a train station somewhere in Mongolia with the help of the locals, and they had to ship it back to England. They ended up buying a Jawa motorcycle for the cameraman, and took his BMW to finish the trip. That’s how complex that computer controlled ABS brake system is..
so that had me very concerned about attempting to change the brake fluid myself. I called the dealer in Wexford and asked when can I get an appointment and how much is it just to change the brake fluid.. they could squeeze me in in three months, and I believe it was $750 just to change the brake fluid plus parts plus shop materals plus disposal fee plus tax.
I ended up buying a video showing me how to do it which was very simple actually. The danger was the master cylinder was too small and because it had electric pumps that sucked the brake fluid out it could empty that Reservoir in a couple seconds as soon as you turn the key on. So you just add a little container that made the master cylinder reservoir able to hold about a quart of brake fluid it seems. That was the answer. It was simple after that, but $750??? Parts were expensive too. I think I paid $30 for a bmw oil filter. I think the air filter cartridge was $85.. that was 2010 prices..
an acquaintance was a mechanic at that BMW shop in Wexford. He had a BMW K 1200 LT on the lift with the whole back end of the machine off. All the luggage trunk wheel transmission all off and the flywheel was exposed. I asked him what was up with that machine when I stopped in to see him one day. He said the slave cylinder leaked on the clutch ruining the clutch. I asked him how much is this gonna cost the owner. He said about $4500. That was in 2010.. probably $6000 today..
I struck a deer at 70 miles an hour on that BMW. I didn’t go down. $5500 damage. nothing unusual there.. but both of those mirrors went straight to China when I hit that deer. In 2010, those mirrors were $492 each, plus tax. I thousand dollars for two mirrors? They weren’t even power mirrors, or heated mirrors..
it was one shock after another owning my first BMW. And that’s my last. They sure ain’t what they used to be. I never experienced costs, or symptoms, or imperfections, or flaws like that on any of my Japanese motorcycles or on my 4 moto guzzi’s or my fantic, beta, or gasgas non japanese machines…especially not combined all problems in one bike, that happened to be the most expensive motorcycle I ever owned..
please don’t take this personally, but I don’t think that the BMW I owned was even as well-made or as reliable as a 1969 Honda CB 750.. it was the most flawed most expensive motorcycle I ever owned. I will never buy another BMW. When I speak to other BMW owners that are honest. They don’t defend their machines. they reluctantly agree with me..
part of the enjoyment I get out of owning motorcycles and I’ve owned many dozens of motorcycles. I won’t even tell you because you won’t believe me. But I enjoy working on them. But with a BMW, you have to marry the dealer unless you have all the “ special tools” they sometimes require.. I had to buy a special wrench just to change the brake fluid. And that special adapter to increase the volume of my master cylinder to change the brake fluids..
my BMW K 1200 had A great seat. My wife loved the passenger seat, and both seats were heated. That was wonderful. The grips were heated. It had an electric up down windshield. reverse,That was nice. It had a center stand and a little handle for lifting the bike on to the center stand. That was a nice touch. I thought the bike was beautiful. Mine was black.. it was very smooth on the highway, and it rotated left to right very sharply. The brakes were extremely powerful. The rear wheel was very easy to remove with that single-sided swingarm.. I thought the bags were a little small. I liked the big gas tank. The speedometer/odometer was off by about 10%. Which made it appear to get better gas mileage than it was actually getting. It would say I went 100 miles, when I only went about 90 miles and it had the correct size tires front and rear. There was not much of a selection available for it in the tire department..
It had many great qualities, but it had many flaws and that’s why I got rid of it. The worst flaw was how unstable it felt with those grabby no feel electric brakes.. every time I had to pull up to a stop sign, I was nervous, because I thought I was gonna drop it again if those brakes started to grab unexpectedly again if I had to turn the handlebars doing a parking lot maneuver..
I had a good friend of mine that owns a collision repair shop do the repairs after the deer impact. He did excellent excellent work. Not even a single Phillips screw head had the paint flaked off of it. It looked as good as new. it had all new plastic, new headlight, new windshield, new front fender, new fairing stay, new mirrors. Everything looked new, I sold it and bought my 4th moto guzzi.. a norge which i rode for 12 years.. it had abs, Single sided swingarm, excellent suspension with much adjustability that the Italian machines are famous for, a great seat, heated grips, electric windshield, projector beam headlights, four of them, and I could adjust the valves on that in 45 minutes without even removing the gas tank.. I only saw that because I want a more upright position for a long distance, that’s why I bought the Venture
@@Jodyrides Well, I bought a R1200R in 2012 and up til today, after almost 100,000km. I can say, that I never had any issue with the bike so far. Just normal service and replacing the usual wear parts. Did a handful of tours across Europe with it.... the only thing I had to do was filling gas into the tank. Also all other BMW owners I know had hardly any issues with their bikes over the years. You might have had a lemon. Happens once in a while. But I doubt that you spoke to that many other BMW owners. Especially to ones with boxers.
You wrote a book that nobody wanted.
Wow.
I need to ride the harley 114. I've ridden the chieftain and absolutely love it
Price matters. My 2022 R18B was $16k before $500 military discount. No HD or Indian came close. Shaft drive, no belt adjustment.
LMAO.... wait until you get the service bills on that. Price of parts is outrageous. You'll get final drive service bills for 500 ml $75 bottle of 70w-80 G3 hypoid oil every service. $1100 services every 12k miles. And a biggy at 24k miles for transmission fluid service too.
Are you insane? Fluids changes are easy to do compared to a HD. $75 for gear oil ? No way.
You are Right! If you are In the Market RIGHT NOW Is the Time to Pick Up an R18: Low Miles Pre-Owned there are some crazy low prices out there. I picked up the R18B From a Harley Dealer with 200 Miles for $10,499. STOLE IT!!!!!!!!!
Great review. Having been a Harley rider all my life (still own 2. 01 fatboy and 74 shovel) went to an Indian Springfield in 16. It was different at first, but the "connection" you guys mentioned, came around.
My 16 chieftan is tight smooth ride and the price comparison you guys didn't mention you get more for your money speaking with the indian where as Harley always wants extra for windshield that doesn't move floor boards on a indian are gigantic
@@stephentest9117 Indian gives you more for your money alright.. Very limited paint options, terrible colors of what options you do have, what paint you get wasn’t well done, inferrer chrome, a gimmicky windshield and a guarantee that it will not hold its value in comparison..
What a deal..
@@lanejohnson7656it won't hold value because harley artificially inflates their prices, they purposely don't sell good deals and they want you to trade in old bikes so they can get you into another overpriced bike but then they can sell used Harleys at a higher price to appear "value retained"
I would like to see the Honda GoldWing DCT vs all of these. The GoldWing is a bagger and the Wing with the trunk is a GoldWing Tour. I have previously owned a 2017 Harley CVO Limited. I now have a 2018 GoldWing Tour DCT with airbag.
Both Harley and GoldWing are great in their own way.
Great review.
The K bike too
I ride a 2018 Roadglide special and really have no complaints. I’ve never rode an Indian, but the local Indian dealer is having a two day event coming up this month where you can come in and test ride every model. I’m kinda drawn to the Cheiftan, and I’m looking forward to taking it for a spin. Who knows, maybe I’ll make the switch.
Nice review guys, I own a RGS and a Chieftain and agree with your opinion on fit and finish. Where I would disagree is in the handling aspect, Harley stock suspensions have always been hot garbage, the main reason so many guys turn to fox, ohlins ect as the first mod done to the bike. The mono shock is a far superior design and the Indians now come with fox installed. You left out one major category and that’s reliability.I can’t speak to BMW as I have never owned one but the Indian is as close to bullet proof as you can get, just like it’s cousin the Victory bikes were. The Harleys seem to always have issues with every bike they put out, us Harley owners just come to expect it as part of owning a Harley. My father used to tell me when I was young don’t buy a Harley unless your willing to work on it, and unless you have the money to pay a dealer that advice still rings true today. That being said I will always own a Harley even tho they are far from the best bike available they are however the most loved bike available by most Americans.
This is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for the input. I have a Vic Cross Country that really didn’t give me many problems. I was pissed when they shut down Vic, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before I buy a Harley given their reliability, and that BMW looks like it’s got a face only a mother could love.
Thanks again man!
Nothing like the feeling of a Harley,it’s a modern day Classic,Period!
Well done. Would like to see companison between Street Glide and current Goldwing.
Love to have a Harley but there is still to many issues with the engine.
Not interested in having the bike at the dealership for stator, twisted crank, or crank runout, or cam bearings or chains in the engine in the primary or on the cam issues.
And 2” of rear suspension is something that should have been addressed years ago.
Everything you mentioned is crap you read about but just doesn’t happen. The short travel is real but not much better on the other two.
@@k9m42 The R 18 B is considerably better in the rear suspension. Even better than my Sport Glide with Legend front and rear suspension and Saddlemen Explorer aftermarket back seat. There's plenty of poorly maintained 2 lane canyon and mountain roads here in Southern CA, and the R 18 Bagger suspension with the tall seat option is the best, most progressive and plushest of the bunch. I know, I'm 65, 6' 5" and 275# and my lower back tells me it is so.
Thanks for posting I guess here is a simple one if you are Long way from home many many miles from nowhere which one would you want easy answer
What a well timed video. I'm cross shopping baggers this month haha. On the suspenion front, it looks like the Street Glide tested was a special that has 1" less travel in the rear shock over the standard correct?
Just plan on putting a new set of shocks on it. I picked up an '18 Street Glide last summer and compared to my Victory, it was nearly unrideable, especially two up. I put a set of RWD RS-1 shocks on the rear which are an inch longer and way beefier, and it's like night and day.
Get the Street Glide Phil, I changed my suspension to Ohlins, however, I rode my Street Glide across country and I wasn't overly concerned with the shocks. There's definitely a difference between a good set of aftermarket than stock but it's not as big of an issue as some would make it out to be.
I have a new 2021 street glide special with 3K miles and nothing can touch the fit feel or finish. I put the 1" longer legend rear shocks to get a little more travel and the stock shocks sucked.
I bought a Road glide special and it had 12" shocks from the factory, they were horrible. Bought some 13" Legend A for it and it took it from worst suspension to the best on any cruiser I have owned. A $900 upgrade but done in a 1/2 hr. installation. I would not let the rear suspension hold me back from a purchase of the bike.
Get the SGS and the. Add legend air…
Maintenance and reliability? Which bike will let you stranded in the middle of nowhere more likely?
Funny, I own 2 sport tourings and 1 each sport and ADV bikes, and at my local dealership this summer BMW was offering extended test rides of the R18. I expected to hate it, but I nearly bought it on the spot I liked it so much. I’d never buy a Harley, simply because when riding with my buddies (6 different brands, probably 200 days of touring), the only failures that we’ve ever had were the HDs, and it happened twice. No thanks.
Bmw has a much higher failure rate tho than harley Harleys is 26% failure rate while bmw is 48%
@@zanderburchfield5832 well. That said, the Harleys on our rides, someone always has an issue.
Wise man people today are very easily controled to buy certian products based on marketing alone and tend to want to fall in line like sheep. That is why you see so many Harleys on the road or side of the road lol. I see this slowly changing and see many more Indians good for Indian but i liked it better when my roadmastrer was a minority.
Great review. I have a ‘21 Street Glide Special and if no one else mentioned it, I just wanted to point out when you discussed pricing it may not have been clear that the RDRS does not come standard, so my dealership had to find one that had it for me, whereas I *believe* the traction control and ride modes are standard on the Chieftain. Clearly that wasn’t enough to make me switch sides :)
Most dealerships already have it included and don’t even increase the price of the msrp.
@@gambino_21sgs79 ah good to know…that may be the case in some locations. My dealership in SoCal had a mix of bikes with/without RDRS and didn’t have a black on black version with it so they had to pull one from another location and it did affect the price. Anyway, just an observation that it’s technically a factory upgrade and not included with the base model price.
Victory made Harley work hard to keep up. Had a 2011 Cross Country and it could carve mountain roads and walk away from the Harleys.We Victory owners were thrown under the bus when they sold out to Indian and made our bikes worthless overnight. Victory was one of the best bikes I ever owned.
I STILL OWN MY VICTORY CC PLUS A INDIAN AND A STREET GUIDE, THE VICTORY CC HANDLES BETTER AND WILL OUT RUN IN THE CORNERS AND STRAIGHT OF WAYS
I completely agree. I would actually say, "Victory made Harley work hard to CATCH up." That Freedom 106 engine was way ahead of Harley for years. In fact, I'd put my 106 up against any stock HD 107....that had several problems when it came out. By the way, I'm not a HD hater. I have one, but I have to be honest.
My 2011 Jackpot walks all over those HD 107’s. Long liv e the Freedom 106!!
The reviewers couldn't seem to detach indian from Polaris, why not try an indian? I absolutely love my chieftain.
What Polaris did to Victory owners is a big reason why I will likely never buy an Indian. They dropped Victory, screwing their customers to try to play off a names heritage that was dead for at least a half century.
I’m not a fan of Polaris due to terrible experiences with their jet skis and 4 wheelers so I I’ve never been excited to drop $30+k to see if their bikes are any better. I damn sure won’t drop $30+k to be tomorrows Victory owner..
They would have earned more respect from me by building up the Victory and building their own legacy and heritage instead of dropping it for a dead name and try to play it off as it never died. And the victory bikes except that funky looking touring bike had a better style to begin with..
Can’t remember what model of Victory caught my eye. I was all in on it until I seen the Polaris casting on the engine (I wasn’t aware Polaris owned them at the time). Instant flashbacks of my sisters jet ski she purchased 1 year before Polaris quit making them. It was a pile of crap day 1 and lived in a shop. Brother in law tried to trade it and the dealerships flat out told him they didn’t want it. He finally hauled it to the dump where it belonged before even being unboxed. I’ve been around FAR more junk Polaris 4 wheelers than decent ones.
I have been riding for over 45 years had all kinds of motorcycles . I currently ride a 2016 ultra limited and have over 60 thousand kilometers without 1 issue. Oil and brakes that it. Maybe just lucky I guess. Ride safe.
Can we get one with the new H-D Street/Road Glide ST models. It be nice to see how the STs line up with these other brands now
You guys did a good job with this, and some of what you said were my own similar thoughts before deciding to ride home with the HD. My only gripe is HD is not very generous with the technology stuff for the price you are paying (mine didn't have the RDRS thing), but geez, you'd think they'd at least give you some heated grips and/or tire pressure monitoring.
Who needs heated grips. Put the bike in cruise control and alternate each hand on top of the cylinder head and warm up your hands.
Tire pressure monitoring is on them now. But for a price.
Friendly advice. Convenience creates laziness. Remember you only have 2 wheels and tire condition is extremely important.. Looking at tire pressure on a screen is not inspecting tires. Buy a gauge and inspect them frequently..
Not to mention tires balance better internally and no ugly weights on your wheel that can fall off. No worries having tires mounted in a independent shop leaving you screwed until they get a new monitor from a dealer, depending where you are can be a hassle. And you can also save money installing tires yourself..
I was always told "There is no replacement for displacement. BMW R18 wins
I have been looking at buying a bagger and Harley so far come in 2 nd because I have to buy the bike and immediately change the seat and upgrade the suspension. Bmw is not on my list. Indian Challenger so far is no.1. great suspension and seat. Engine is great. Waiting to see if Yamaha is bringing their bagger back.
Have to agree. I am now on my second Indian and won’t go back. I don’t agree with these two on their fit and finish opinion, but that’s ok. I do not like that 107/114 at all. I’ve had two HD and two Indians. I agree with you on the fact that HD will sell you an expensive bike with a ton of flaws that YOU can pay to fix and “make it your own”. No thanks, I don’t agree with their opinion on HD fit and finish. But! It is your money, get what YOU want. I don’t judge the Harley guys because that’s what they like. I laugh whenever they go for the Polaris line. OK…
Too bad for you. Harleys and Indians are nice but limiting. It’s like touring in a truck. It’ll get you there but limits your Performence. Ride the BMW and you’ll never look back.
If your waiting on Yamaha to come back with a bagger your not to serous about buying a new bike
Well, it's horses for arses. Rubber side down. Cheers!
Love the Harley streetglide.
The three of them are magnificent motorcycles, I have always been a Harley Davidson fan but since The German Company created this Amazing, powerful and impressive monster I became a loyal fan of the Awesome BMW R18 B which no doubt at all has become my favorite Motorcycle, because of it's massive, impressive, imponent and majestic boxer Engine which impress me a lot at first sight with those two massive and impressive Cylinders that outstand spectacularily at both sides of the huge and impressive boxer Engine, besides it's Beauty it's outstanding, great sound, powerful, majestic, very high Quality elememts all around, technology, in fact I m in love with this Spectacular German wild Beast!!!, So no doubt at all my favorite Motorcycle it's The absolutely Amazing BMW R18 B!!!, Very good explanation and video as well, so Thank You guys for sharing!!!, Greetings from Cuba!!!
Can I just say thank you. I've seen a few HD's and R18's in the wild but Indian haven't really got a foothold in the UK yet. That said I've been looking at their bikes, they look great in pictures. This is the first review to show the Polaris group stuff that's carried across. I now realise there's a reason they're a little cheaper than the competition and that's because they're just not as special. The Beemer and HD are bespoke machines. As a UK/Euro rider I'd probably have the R18 Classic, partly due to dealer network, partly due to quality but mostly due to style. The big baggers are a little too big for our roads. Oh and I've also ridden 1100 and 1250 boxers so I already love those engines. Personally I'd have likes to see a telelever on the BMW though. It just seems right for a boxer.
LORDY, LORDY LOOK WHO'S FORTY! I would love to see a segment on a 40year old motorcycle comparison . Say bikes from 1983. A Gold Wing, Harley, and a Bmw R100 Rt and whoever etc., and see how they held up through the years.
Morgan one question: I'm 6.3 and almost every Harley I sit on has this effect: my knees stick out above the tank and my thighs are not horizontal to the road but they slope upward. That is also the case with you in this test. The wheelbase of the Harley is relatively small. Is this really a good a bike for tall people in terms of looks, control, comfort?
@Morgan Gales Ducati Monster? That strikes me as masochistic 😉 (The Diaval is a much better fit for the vertically challenged with that big wheel base. ) If I may, what bike do you personally ride?
I'm 6.6 and I ride a Street Glide sometimes traveling long distance putting down 700 to 800 mile back to back days. There're three things a tall rider must have to be comfortable on a Harley-Davidson Touring bike.
1) Highway Pegs 2) Extended Seat 3) Taller bars. I've seen people taller than me ride with these 3 changes.
@@TravelingTall Thanks for that. We tall folks need to put in some extra effort and cash I guess.
@@doordevloer9105 I was about to say check out traveling talls TH-cam page.
@@TeensierPython I will, thanks
You guys did a really good job covering so many areas of the bikes I have had many large road bikes and currently playing around with 21 Street Glide and 09 Road Star.. I will point out a couple of my disappointments for two of your reviewed bikes..for the 21 models, Chieftain: Kickstand look & LOCATION, fake gas cap, and handle bar brake reservoir.. Street Glide; Seat is marginal, Suspension is horrible (esp. if you weigh less than 180lbs) and poor stereo sound performance. I haven't rode a BMW R18, but yea 900lbs and excessive engine vibration is a deal killer for me
Where is the goldwing?
if the springfield darkhorse classes as a bagger you might think differently on a few of those issues you spoke about like handling for eg!!!
Thanks for the info guys but riding a bike is a really personal thing. But anyway still a nice video 👍🏽
Need to look at the bikes in 10 years and see how they look after 75k miles. I have a 2011 Electraglide with almost 70k miles. Chrome is still perfect and paint is too with the exceptions of a few stone chips. I have seen 10 year old Indians with rusty chrome. I have no experience with the BMW's so I cannot say anything good or bad about them. I have had no mechanical or electrical issues. Longest trip was a trip to Sturgis and around the Eastern US. Total miles was 7500.
10 year old Indians? No such thing as of today, unless you're talking about a '53 or earlier. Polaris debuted the new Thunderstroke Indian in 2014.
perfect video. god i thanks to you guys for this comparison. (springfield would be more decent choice though)
I don't hate Indian but when you sit a Indian and a Harley of similar models the quality of the Harley stands out by far.
I totally agree. I rode other bikes and yeah they're nice, but there's something about Harley's that feels way more solid. (Except the 2022 sportster 975. It feels cheaply built)
Folks like to complain about Harley but a lot of them are the guys that either don't take care of their bikes, or try to modify them so much to the point of it not running right.
Do any of these have reverse or did I miss it?
Cant comment on the other two, but from other reviews the BMW does have reverse which is a huge thing if you have short legs
The BMW does have a reverse gear and it is amazing. It also has hill assist/hold which is a great feature.
Awesome bike 🏆👍🎖️🇵🇰🇵🇰
I have a '21 Chieftain. I agree on fit and finish. Especially the paint, or paint options. But it mops the floor with the competition on power, tech, suspension and overall performance.
Edit: the Harley SGS is the sexiest bike ever made IMO😁
I have the 21 SGS, 30k out the door and I’m in process of adding legend air along with yaffe stretched tank, sorrento seat, monkey bar 12” bars and upgraded lightings. Oh and electric center stand. I’ve already changed out headers and slip Ons. I love it but have had to spend 40k plus to get it really custom.
A 21 chieftain makes the same power as a 21 sg so not sure about mopping the floor on power.
@@guins99 Sorry to hear that.
Agree 10000%
I think bimmer should start selling those engine casings as tables or something. I mean I don't want the bike, but man that's pretty engine.