Chat Rates if TF2's 2007 Dev Commentary STILL Holds Up
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6:46 Gabe was so happy he got an A that he didn't even want to speak, complete loss of words
he truly thanked and had fun
@@HOURHAK Thanks Gabe, and have fun :)
He welcomes us to TF2, talks about how much he wanted to see it flourish, and wished us fun
only video without dev commentary gag is the one about dev commentary 0:
i though the video was the commentary
At last, after several years of using dev commentaries for his video outros, shounic finally decided to make a tier list of them
eyyyy
MvM gambling addict.
Hopefully, it will have been worth the wait.
Shut up man
The golden pan, Dewill
When will the ki for it be use?
1:22 Hydro is like the best looking map of the original 6, what the heck guys.
shounic audience and uncle dane's audience are the same people
Tasteless zoomers
It's a failure to recognize the artistry instead of the design. People were likely confused.
@@percher4824 100%. Hydro is awful, but it’s very pretty.
nuh uh
After 19 years of playvelopment, it was 93-99% worth the wait.
*electricity sfx*
I am surprised chat reacted so poorly to the art direction of Hydro, I think it is a very well executed map in regards to the map's cold, tranquil and somewhat sterile power facility aesthetic.
Probably because art direction tends to equal map design for most people. And let's be honest, Hydro is poorly designed and explained.
The art style is good. People probably voted thinking it was about the design.
The intro video does enough to explain what it is, I don't get why people get confused, it's fun.
@@TKsh1 I played a lot of Hydro after ban wave and biggest problem of Hydro is that it's critically bugged. You can stuck on previous point if you not went to spawn, especially if you lose. Sense of direction is quite debatable IMO. I don't find it too hard to navigate(At least it's not Reconer that feels too linear and lacking of flanks).
@@TKsh1 Hydro also isn't helped by the fact that matchmaking will randomly break what spawns you get. If it were remade into a massive free-for-all map with a ton of control points instead of twenty consecutive games of 2cp to get 1 of the best-2-out-of-3 game wins, it might have gone over better.
the community is a herd
spy's paper masks being the most highly rated aspect of the game both caught me off guard and is totally agreeable
Now that the bots are gone Shounic has to pass the time by going... back in time
To the first thanksgiving…
@@peytongonzaga7109to get turkeys…
To take turkeys....
OFF the menu.
Off the menu...
It's crazy how difference in hate between random crits and hydro's aesthetics is only 6%
What can I say, worst class in the game. Glad it got deleted.
I mean, there's a difference between bad rating and very bad rating, which hydro aesthetics was only rated that in bad tier, whilst random crits was rated 6% more in very bad, an entire tier above.
People that don't like hydro are subhuman and can't recognize real beauty.
Even crazier that the disparity between sniper and medic is so big. IMO having a medic is just as impactful as having a competent sniper on the enemy team.
Hydro looks really good. It plays terrible but its pretty to look at.
Bro who tf hates on hydros aesthetics?? 😭😭 man after that im not sure if i trust the viewers opinion on the commentary
i think its due to the fact that not many care about hydro & the lack of a fifth "neutral" option on the poll
Hydro is the best TF2 map aesthetic and i will die on that hill
@@ruzgar1372 my favourate map asthetically is swiftwater
They have to be trolling
@@artifactU It's a pretty standard Alpine theme. Many maps run it, simple but really good.
Next video will be "chat rates localisation files updates"
I find it funny how everything is ranked based on the topic and not the actual commentary
Yeah, like what's the point?
I get that the commentaries arn't that exciteing but isn't that the point of the meme?
Rateing a very standard and unexciteing feature.
@@nacicomi that's not what they were rating
That outro felt ominously final. I hope reaching the end of the commentary node doesn't mean this channel is over.
lol nah dw
@@shounic
Ah, good. That was a very cool ending regardless
I wish 79% of modern game devs had the sense to integrate important information into the game world in an immersive way instead of lazily going "lol just add another icon to the hud"
Many of them do, but the corporate structure of modern game companies is basically evil. Some awful parody of a human being will be in a managerial role breathing down your neck to "efficiencise" your designs or some other bad-sounding made-up buzz word. From their perspective, HUD elements make more "sense" because they (as non-players who don't understand a thing about the game) can tell better from them in a static screenshot than they can from trying to learn how to read the scene.
Video games weren't always this way, but EA's horrible behavior is now the gold standard in the "competitive" triple-A industry.
@@lpsp442I take issue with the overly reductive "bad because capitalism" take. Capitalism probably does make games bad... but almost all games are made under capitalism, so how *do* the glorious few standouts manage to rise above adversity?
In the case of TF2, you just need to give a scrappy, uniquely talented team of modders 9 continuous years of unconditional resources and totally unchecked creative control. It's quite the unrealistic standard -- the games industry *never* worked like this. Other studios had to make do with considerably less and they still (sometimes) managed to produce great visual designs!
So, what's the true difference-maker? Why do games look so much more cluttered now? I chalk it up to team sizes: if your game designer, UI designer and programmer are the same person, they can dig down really deep into the weeds and experiment with really wild ideas. Splitting those roles up may be necessary to achieving games at the scale of (for example) Baldur's Gate III... but doing so necessarily redelegates the responsibility for "steering the ship" away from the intuitive individual and into the hands of the inflexible collective. It takes a truly skilled (and lucky) team to make up for this inherent procedural inflexibility and most software teams just... aren't completely up to the challenge.
@@MasterChaoko I also take issue with overly blunt "Capitalism bad" takes, which is why I don't make them. I had no intent to talk about it, but for what it's worth its flaws did pave the way for cronyism and corporatist monopolies that plague all industries today.
Hence the reason why """scrappy, uniquely talented teams of 9 guys""" that used to be ubiquitous have died out and team sizes are now oceanic in their nauseating bloated scale. It suits the content-maximising interests of the top crust and enables their further monopolising, and if the games are terrible from all but the most mindless pigfeed perspective then that's too bad.
The worst part about it is that this is a system which performs an ideological and phisophical houdini, by both posing as some sort of destined force ala social darwinism ("this is just the winning combination, don't get mad") while also paving over everything with a sickening and hollow veneer of woke crap. The worst bits of left-wing nu-religion welded to the right wing's propensity to apologise for atrocity. And it's in charge wherever you look today. People are sick and want better rulers.
... "nu-religion", "apologize for atrocity", "better rulers?". I'm honestly afraid to reply to this guy but I just gotta say that what I'm saying has nothing to do with that crackpot mumbo-jumbo.
@@MasterChaoko You're an un-serious person and I'm happy to no longer speak with you about anything of substance.
1:21 I call horseshit. Hydro (and powerhouse) is among one of the most original map art styles in TF2 and is heavily underrated.
Yeah chat seems to be brain dead.
Hydro's visual design hate is absolutely unwarranted. It's one of the first maps in the game and I think it might still be the single best one at capturing the 60s aesthetic, to me it's so representative of the original identity of TF2's world, almost a pure crystalized form of its aesthetic untainted by 15 years of additions to it, exactly as VALVe saw fit for it in 2007, aided by the fact it sort of fell out of time unlike maps like 2fort or Granary which still see use. The variety in colors, warm orange rocky walls, to cold and sharp hallways fitting of a power plant, it feels serene in a way most other maps can't quite capture.
say VALVE or valve not VALVe please, just because their logo says VALVe doesent mean thats what the company is called
@@ryanthegoose9456VALVe hurts my eyes a tiny bit (so does GLaDOS)
@@ryanthegoose9456 regardless of what's correct or not is that really a big deal? I pretty much use the three pronunciations interchangeably
@@arrowtongue hurts me eyes when i read it (also these are spellings not pronunciations) (if you prouncounce these diffently not counting yelling VALVE then ur wierd)
@@ryanthegoose9456Don't read then. Simple
Medic got 60% of the popular vote, but unfortunately pyro won in the electoral college.
audio cues responding to things gives positive negative and informative feedback that is crucial for new players to learn what does what, what's good to do and what's bad when it happens. maybe after many hours it becomes white noise, but imo it's a super underrated factor and hearing people thank you for overheals and teleports mustve made a lot of people feel rewarded
edit: its also a very good detail, and if it weren't for these we wouldnt hear our mercs speak nearly as much. this includes domination voice lines and sucg
As a medic main.
The thank you-s are the reason I'm willing to go through the hell that is playing medic.
"Good job" and "cheer" voicelines also work.
@@nacicomi yea, even without people actually going z+2 you get a thanks which is great
I'm glad it's not too automated .. that was an issue I had with L4D, they built this system for the characters to have these conversations, which sounds neat, but it basically means me and the other player are just listening in on a conversation.
I like TF2's dialog menus and how they let you have an explicit conversation with someone. They really help the social aspect of the game.
@@nacicomi Hearing Heavy yell "THANK YOU DOKTOR" makes my brain release dopamine.
The pyro's flames being visually hard to discern is interesting, didn't know that was intentional.
They used to be much worse and pretty much straight blind you if you were looking at a pyro who was firing them at you. It makes a lot of sense but it was pretty unfun to play against.
@@Schtoples Well, it was worse than that. Pyro's flames were inconsistent at hitting enemies. Outside of pubstomping, Pyro was a broken class functionally. He might not be anything extraordinary today, but those buffs from Jungle Inferno were necessary to make him a normal character.
@@leithaziz2716 Pyro didn't even have air blast on the initial orange box release. The class' history of being scuffed and kind of bad goes back much further than Jungle Inferno.
They were pretty wrong about Pyro being the best short range class though lol, Pyro gets absolutely shredded by Heavies
I sometimes loose pyro in flames so good job I guess
I think a strong medic/patient relationship is a little counterproductive. Similar to how the devs didn't expect sniper players to be quickscope machines, medic is a lot more effective when you're aren't trying to keep somebody at 150%. For example: choosing to overheal some flankers when they have crit heals before tending to the frontliner that just retreated back to you. An efficient medic is almost detached from their teammates.
Crit heals were a mexhanic that got added after tf2's launch iirc. That or they existed but got buffed to be more significant. Might be conflating the old random crit system and the newer crit system.
@Underqualified_Gunman iirc they were changed to be active on spawn, before you had to wait 10-15 seconds AFTER they spawndd to receive crit heals as well as no damage
The "strong medic/patient relationship" is also one-sided as Hell, the Medic's teammates treat him like an NPC with no feelings 99% of time
As a medic main, it really depends. Spreading heals is important during prefights/stalemates/rolls, but in the middle of a push you often need to identify a pocket (or two) who receives a majority of the heals so that they have enough health to make plays even in the face of oncoming damage, which I think is what the devs were thinking of in this commentary. The relationship is temporary, but strong nonetheless.
I hadn't seen the Deadlock UI before this video. I'm in awe of how horribly cluttered and overstimulating it is.
Like said in the video, it is in alpha so it'll hopefuly, fingers crossed, praying to god, be improved
Wish we’d get the same dev-to-user commentary like these in more games.
0:46
"If we just give him a meter, he won't just quickscope everything to death" - Clueless
"Tell me that you suck at the game without saying that you suck at the game"
Something amazing is that all the mercs have instantly recognizable headshots,
Like, just a glance at a friendly spy makes it easy to tell who they are disguised as
*mugshots
Backshots
A neat idea, but I don't really think asking a TH-cam audience to give their thoughts via poll is particularly useful data. Certain decisions may well be taken for granted, and the average player has no experience whatsoever in the game design process. I'm not trying to be elitist - totally fine to ask a wider audience their thoughts - but everything has their limitations. All the results could have been predicted by just imagining what Reddit's current zeitgeist of TF2 is. This is especially confounded by the limitations of the polling method (4 discreet options with live community feedback) but that's unavoidable given your selected medium.
Not a bad video by any means; it's still well-presented and an interesting idea, but I don't think I've gained any new insight from this personally.
@@aceattorneyhdclips its not really supposed to be useful data i dont think
@@artifactU The video's premise is to propose the question "Do the original concepts from 2007['s TF2] still hold up?" The video then does not answer this analytically and instead just has polling data from a livestream's chat rate how they feel about the commentaries. If the data isn't supposed to be useful, then what is the point in proposing the question? I highly doubt the start of the video is a complete non sequitur from the rest of it. In that sense, I feel the video has failed to deliver the much more interesting concept of the video.
Video games are never designed by committee. Why, then, would you ever want to analyze game design by committee?
@@aceattorneyhdclips 6:27 "Obviously, you can't take this data too seriously"
"All the results could have been predicted by just imagining what Reddit's current zeitgeist of TF2 is"
Yeah, pretty much this. Is it really ANY surprise that the nodes on random crits and sniper were at the bottom of the tier list?
@@dacheesebroker1105 My contention isn't with the accuracy or precision of the data, rather it's that the data is fundamentally inappropriate: it, in my view, cannot actually even be attempted to answer the proposed question. It's a disconnect. In that sense, I don't think it's a matter of taking the data seriously/unseriously more than it is disagreeing with the base method of data collection itself.
But what you probably mean is I have a stick up my arse and am taking this entertaining content too seriously. Fair enough and touché. I just wanted to voice that, though the video was well made, it wasn't what I had come to expect from Shounic's otherwise insightful videos and wanted to give constructive feedback. To be completely blunt, I thought this video's thumbnail and title were much more interesting than the contents.
Recently i chanced on the Team Fortress 2 box product page on Amazon and i was reading all the comments from 2012 and before. It was quite a trip, probably would make for a fun video
cant shake off the feeling that a lot of the audiences perspective on the commentary is skewed, specially on Hydro and on Sniper
as for the Random Crits, the real reason why theyre bad should be because they encourage rolling, i think it would be better if it instead helped the "underdog" team more than rewarding the one thats already winning
just opinions tho
Well, that's why it would be funny to revert it that the more damage you do, the less chance is for one.
Or just delete crit ramp-up thing and leave them at their base to make it truly random for all
@@Jasiuc330 or just remove it entirely
@@vyor8837 hell nah, even if not perfect I have soft spot for them
@@Jasiuc330 why
@@vyor8837theyre fun and goofy im sorry that you don't liek randomness in a non competitive and instead a casual experience, its like complaining about items in smash, sure they are random and some being op but do you really think that items should be removed because comp players fucking despise items?
"Spy game design is outdated"
"Medic is engaging to play and rewarding"
Ah yes, that explains the 4 spies 0 medics i always encounter while playing
Hydro has one of the best aesthetics from the original map pool, chat is on some crazy shit
the lack of cheeky commentary quotes at the end kinda messed me up for a second
Weird video from you, shounic. I'm not sure that the numbers you got from chat mean anything.
The interesting question here is: does the developer's commentary from 2007 still describe the game in 2024? Your chat doesn't answer that, it seems like they're just rating features of the game.
yeah this is such a strange barely cohesive, barely productive video
@@kerzidit’s fun
@@desertdesk iT's FuN
It's because the poll prompt was "what do you think about this" instead of "how true is this nowadays".
I brought it up to him, but we were at the halfway point and he didn't want to retread ground so he just kept going.
@@GoblinSquid thank you for the insightful response. I’m just pointing out that not every video has to be productive to be enjoyable
if they made it to where you could only hs after 25 or 50 percent of the charge meter was charged it would be so much better. that's just one idea though.
Or make his base damage 40 instead so you can still do 120 on a quickscope but to oneshot anyone you need to commit to zooming in.
@@TheTdw2000That’s a good idea, so the skilled players will get high damage from 180 headshots. But not too much damage to instant kill and to actually give the enemy a chance.
It was only a matter of time before Shounic made a video about the developer commentary given how often he's spliced it in his outros.
Why did they think letting spy scream "WE MUST STOP THE BOMB!" automatically while you're in the enemy blue backlines was a good idea?
It doesn't do it when you're disguised does it? I'm curious because I always thought that when disguised it only plays the sound for you.
@mcxMakerx not while you're disguised, but that comes into play when you might undisguise so the spawning teamate outlines doesnt give you away.
It does play for everyone, and notice how often your teamates will have automatic shouts regarding the objective, getting kills/dominations, or cheers/jeers.
That and letting Spy say voicelines for destroying buildings while cloaked and disguised. I literally tracked down a Spy once because his Demo disguise said "KA-BOOM" while he was cloaked and his sapper just destroyed a building.
but Spy doesn't do that when he's disguised, or invisible?
he just wants to stop the bomb so badly
aint watched this yet, but my prediction is going to be: "rare high moments"
y'know im wondering just how impactful the killcam really is, would be neat to see a test on that
IIRC we didn't particularly like the "response rules" node because it explicitly mentions callouts for when the characters reload, which they obviously don't do.
Also THERE I AM GARY THERE I AM
"Idk, probably an A, or something..." - Shounic role playing as my professor lol
I think this video says more about the players of TF2 than the commentaries themselves 🤔
infamous track about class recognition and silhouettes? why infamous. i thought it was considered highly
Yeah I think he meant famous (or was being sarcastic)
SHOUNIC IM GOING TO eat you because i had gone through developer commentary 1 hour ago
The Hydro slander is proof that people has no taste.
It amazes me how it was very clear even 17 years ago how important visual clarity was, and now every modern game seems to not care about it in the slightest
Conclusion: hating on sniper is currently trendy
So this where the cut short clips come from
Hydro is not T H A T bad, it just got its bad status due to confusing design (also cp_steel) that is not common in MP fps games.
It does need some redesign, yes, and make it a little bit smaller, but if executed well. I would bet it could be popular as dustbowl or Badwater...
@@mendyshelios0451 I think Steel got it's redemption after Fishbus has begun to update the map(Yes, they keeps making updates for it and publish them in workshop).
1:49 how do you make the captions report what they actually say rather than “soldier hurt a bit”?
I love random crits, seriously, don't beat me
“Rare high moment.”
Chat is wrong about random crits.
Is it just me or does this video feel rushed, strangely paced and barely cohesive? I suppose I expected this to be more than vague interpretations of unreliable data from stream polls.
EDIT: nevermind its not just me
what do you think should've been done differently? not that the video is perfect but it's not very cohesive because it's chatters rating stuff so it's inherently random and scattershot
@@shounic I think the title should of been named differently. This wasn't quite a dive in on the dev commentary but more of popularity of these mechanics by your chat. And while I'd say most of your chatters are tf2 players, they also can be a bit bias. (the recent bot crisis has put sniper in a bad light, tf2 fans who like to parrot the most popular opinion). Still an interesting video but maybe another go is needed.
@@shounicI thought this video would be about you showing if the commentary lines up with gameplay and is it still accurate but it just ended up being "TH-cam chat makes a tier list of their favorite elements of tf2"
fair enough, i rewrote the title to be clearer
@@shounic all four of these replies basically summarized it for me. it's the title luring you into something insightful but it ended up just being a fun lil thing with you engaging with your audience. the expectation just made it feel a lot worse than it should because you usually make analysis that brings something to the table. it made the viewing experience just a slow confusing realization of "oh this is not that video". the new title solves this though so i have no further complaints
How do you access the developer commentary in TF2? I've been playing since 2010 and never knew the game had commentary.
If you’re using the default HUD then it’s on the bottom of the main menu, just hover over the buttons and you should be able to find it.
You click the button that brings up the developer commentary.
I really can't explain it more simply than that.
I was just listening to the commentary an hour ago. What a coincidence!
0:38 I would find answering this poll frustrating, because I believe that multiple answers can actually contribute to the prompt.
Weavers: fans of verticality.
Players in game: never look up.
after 4 years, i hope it was worth the wait
4:25 “medic x patient” could be interpreted as something else
For me there's nothing bad in TF2, not even random crits, i genuinely love this game, a masterpiece that a school friend showed me in 2012. Many games came after and none got close to this game. I'm still amazed by so many little mechanics were put in the game, that most players don't even know they exist, like the spy being able to make the disguise weapon reload. Truly a Masterpiece!
You are just a simp
I was there for the steam, amazing
4:02 Ahh, the good old times before unusual effects.
Tbf, they seem very minor compared to those small clips of other games shown in the video.
I love how nothing official has come out of Deadlock but everyone, EVERYONE has agreed it is a thing that's coming and what it is and how it plays like.
What does that even mean
@@crabot There is very little about the game is what I'm saying.
@@r.g.thesecond there is a closed alpha with easy access though
@@crabot do YOU have access to it 👀
@@r.g.thesecond yes
Shounic finally did it. He talked about every single dev commentary. There's none left.
early to a shounic video🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
guys can we be honest? TC_Hydro is a beautiful map. It has similar pitfalls to early TF2 maps, but is otherwise extremely fun. I wish the game had more Territory Control maps, because I think the potential of the gamemode is unfulfilled
Sure it isn't fun to get killed by random crits but I don't really mind it that much and it's satisfying when you get one so I'm for random crits.
I’m not for random Critz but I agree with the first part.
Shounic, I hate to say it, but your community has got some pretty poor opinions.
you made this video really quickly? what the hell?
The final Gabe clip being just the trailing silence makes it like the whole video was the commentary ^^
Valve should add a vote option to disable random crits on the current server.
Of course people bitch about getting HIT by random crits. That's like asking car crash victims if they think cars were a good idea.
They sure like them when they’re the ones getting the crit kill.
love the pseudo implication that people crashing the cars into the victims would rate cars highly
@@maxomega3 Extra points
UPDATE: now weapons don't deal damage because people complained about dying
r/fuckcars origin story
so this is the end for the channel, all dev dialogue used
Random crits and likely normal crits should never have been 3x damage.
2x would be fine and closer to mini crits.
After 9 long years in development we hope it was worth the wait.
Your chat is a fool.
You didn't add that a woman developer's part got rated pretty high just sake of voiced by her :D
The red Silence
His favourite class is the spy.
4:07 love the shade
i love what got the high ratings, its really funny to me
Why does spy's cigarette clip through his disguise masks? Is that a newer oversight or has that been in the game since launch?
Question:
Why do spy disguises dont have face expressions?
If its technically just changing spy's model to the enemy team, shouldnt their face mimic spy's expressions?
Sentry gun is better designed than Soldier, Scout and Pyro
This does not change the fact that in Australia there are 48 million Kangaroos and in Uruguay there are 3,457,380 inhabitants. So if the Kangaroos decide to invade Uruguay, each Uruguayan will have to fight 14 kangaroos.
That's counting women, children, and the infirm, though. You want a count of able-bodied military age males to really understand the kangaroo's odds.
exactly
What does and Doesn't count as a kangaroo? There is a spectrum between kangaroos to wallabies which has alot more shades of grey then you would think. A person could easily destory 14 wallabies.
@@TOASTEngineer Yes, but you must also take in account the elderly kangaroo population, and if its practical to let joeys and non-able-bodied kangaroos fight.
@@diegodankquixote-wry3242 its a copypasta i wouldnt take it to seriously
I searched tf2 medic and this popped out somewhere in the search
its terrifying that i can see myself
Chat wrong about their dislikes, as always
>medic is engaging to play
@@veikko_5235 yet more engaging then engi IMO.
(Somehow played it more then any other classes in couple of months and got PTSD from destroyed buildings+hatred towards people of France and Bostonians)
@@jas-c3610 At least PTSD is engaging right?
That ending was sad when I didn’t hear Gabe say anything.
idea: event on the 100 player server for class wars if its possible
Could someone hypothetically make their own dev commentary? Like mod existing commentary or for new maps?
5:52 SUMMONING ALL PM SLEEPER AGENT. IS THAT THE BLACK SILENT?
What the heck - how is there no commentary outro
I guess because the whole video was about the commentary? Iunno I just like them
My favorite class, is the Spy.
0:03 DOODY
Random fall damage seems unnecessary. I ponder which (if any, and how much) modern gamers' sensibilities influenced the ratings.
Hold the left mouse button to start commentary, keep holding it and move the mouse away from the bubble... you did the thing.
I must say I was curious about which one had the most Very Good + Good (top 3 of the list I mean)
Experiment idea: what if every weapon was at its strongest state in history?
No Gabe quote at the end? This is shounic's last video isn't it? D:
The ending felt like you will never upload again T^T💔
is that the black-- i mean red silence from the hit nintendo game libaray of riana where you play as a street thug in the thumbnail?!?!